Plane crashed into IRS Office in Austin, Texas

[Seriously]

It's been all over the news here today. A plane crashed into a building. A building that housed the IRS office you go to prior to criminal proceedings. Below is the blog of the man they believe flew into the building:

If you’re reading this, you’re no doubt asking yourself, “Why did this have to happen?” The simple truth is that it is complicated and has been coming for a long time. The writing process, started many months ago, was intended to be therapy in the face of the looming realization that there isn’t enough therapy in the world that can fix what is really broken. Needless to say, this rant could fill volumes with example after example if I would let it. I find the process of writing it frustrating, tedious, and probably pointless… especially given my gross inability to gracefully articulate my thoughts in light of the storm raging in my head. Exactly what is therapeutic about that I’m not sure, but desperate times call for desperate measures.

We are all taught as children that without laws there would be no society, only anarchy. Sadly, starting at early ages we in this country have been brainwashed to believe that, in return for our dedication and service, our government stands for justice for all. We are further brainwashed to believe that there is freedom in this place, and that we should be ready to lay our lives down for the noble principals represented by its founding fathers. Remember? One of these was “no taxation without representation”. I have spent the total years of my adulthood unlearning that crap from only a few years of my childhood. These days anyone who really stands up for that principal is promptly labeled a “crackpot”, traitor and worse.

While very few working people would say they haven’t had their fair share of taxes (as can I), in my lifetime I can say with a great degree of certainty that there has never been a politician cast a vote on any matter with the likes of me or my interests in mind. Nor, for that matter, are they the least bit interested in me or anything I have to say.

Why is it that a handful of thugs and plunderers can commit unthinkable atrocities (and in the case of the GM executives, for scores of years) and when it’s time for their gravy train to crash under the weight of their gluttony and overwhelming stupidity, the force of the full federal government has no difficulty coming to their aid within days if not hours? Yet at the same time, the joke we call the American medical system, including the drug and insurance companies, are murdering tens of thousands of people a year and stealing from the corpses and victims they cripple, and this country’s leaders don’t see this as important as bailing out a few of their vile, rich cronies. Yet, the political “representatives” (thieves, liars, and self-serving scumbags is far more accurate) have endless time to sit around for year after year and debate the state of the “terrible health care problem”. It’s clear they see no crisis as long as the dead people don’t get in the way of their corporate profits rolling in.

And justice? You’ve got to be kidding!

How can any rational individual explain that white elephant conundrum in the middle of our tax system and, indeed, our entire legal system? Here we have a system that is, by far, too complicated for the brightest of the master scholars to understand. Yet, it mercilessly “holds accountable” its victims, claiming that they’re responsible for fully complying with laws not even the experts understand. The law “requires” a signature on the bottom of a tax filing; yet no one can say truthfully that they understand what they are signing; if that’s not “duress” than what is. If this is not the measure of a totalitarian regime, nothing is.

How did I get here?

Entire text of suicide note here (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. o_posted_on_website_embeddedartco.html).

Thoughts?

[INTJRyan]

Ok. So the guy torches his place and crashes a plane into a building because engineers are not exempt from payroll taxes. Makes perfect sense. If he had my tax bill, he might have tried to start up a new holocaust.

On one hand, this guy seems like a whiny little bitch, but on the other, gotta give him credit for putting his money where his mouth is. Will be interesting to see if this is used as an excuse to further curtail civil liberties and/or general aviation.

[Seriously]

Honestly I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often.

[ArtistTyrant]

eh, other than the Communism part, he's right..the US is a sinking ship of corruption and greed, it has already hit the iceburg

[Necrosis]

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They claim this man was crazy but he seems to pretty on point with his thoughts and flow. (not saying I agree or disagree just he definately wasn't an idiot IMO). I'm going to find his blog and see how "crazy" he really was. Sounds to me like life just got to him as a whole.

[Vagrant]

Sounds to me like he got royally fucked for doing nothing wrong at the hands of some fat pigs. Certainly doesn't strike me as crazy at all. He decided the only way to be heard was suicide, much like the burning monk from Vietnam.

[Ray9]

At least this guy an airplane. By the time the IRS gets done with most of us we'd be lucky if we could fly a kite into a building.

[INTJRyan]

Honestly I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often.

Me too. I feel like I'm living in the 90's again. Nothing like a Democrat in the white house to cause right wing crazies to start blowing shit up.

[Seriously]

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They claim this man was crazy but he seems to pretty on point with his thoughts and flow. (not saying I agree or disagree just he definately wasn't an idiot IMO). I'm going to find his blog and see how "crazy" he really was. Sounds to me like life just got to him as a whole.

Yea he doesn't strike me as crazy either. Just very fed up with things.

---------- Post added 02-18-2010 at 04:01 PM ----------

Me too. I feel like I'm living in the 90's again. Nothing like a Democrat in the white house to cause right wing crazies to start blowing shit up.

I was thinking more of the 60's. Now we just need some free love. ;)

[AaronSheffield]

Sounds to me like he got royally fucked for doing nothing wrong at the hands of some fat pigs. Certainly doesn't strike me as crazy at all.

Are we reading the same note?

To claim that signing a tax form to signify that everything is factual and true to the best of your understanding is equivalent to "duress" and a "totalitarian regime" pegs the ol' crazy indicator pretty damn high. Then he very vaguely talks about doing an unspecified something with unspecified someones (which makes it conveniently impossible to examine his claims critically) that seems to have clearly been tax fraud. The way he describes those acts seems to indicate a martyr complex ("bring about a much-needed re-evaluation", "monsters of organized religion", "the inquisition is still alive and well today", etc).

His complaining about the change to section 530 of the tax code is ultimately ridiculous. It didn't change the total tax burden on anyone as far as I can tell. Rather it merely changed the reporting and withholding requirements to make it much more difficult for 1099 workers to hide revenue from the IRS.

He goes on to blame the government for being fiscally responsible during a crisis (closing superfluous military bases to cut spending) and plays the victim yet again.

He goes on to blame the government once again for acting prudently (grounding flights after 9/11) and shows an inability to objectively evaluate a situation by calling a period of no more than two weeks an "eternity". He also blames the increased security measures for making flights "prohibitively expensive" yet offers no comparison between ticket prices (hint, ticket prices did not increase dramatically, which is why he doesn't list actual prices). He rails against the airline bailouts despite the fact that estimates are that the government saw a net profit of anywhere from $141 million to $327 million due to provisions that required the government to receive stock warrants from the bailed out companies.

He further goes on ranting about earning only 1/3 of his pre-dot-com-bust salary after moving from CA to TX (conveniently neglecting that cost of living in TX is much lower and salaries are correspondingly much lower than in CA) and accuses "4 large companies" of collusion to artificially keep wages low (neglecting the fact that the job market was positively flooded with programmers after the dot-com bust which naturally drives down wages).

He goes on to blame to government for his own failure to file a tax return (I'd thought it was common knowledge that one needed to at least file a return demonstrating that there was no tax liability, I'm certainly no CPA but I know enough to know this).

Finally, he blames his accountant for failing to include significant amounts of his wife's "undocumented income" despite there having been no conceivable way that the accountant could have known about this income since Mr. Stack never claims to have mentioned it.

Sorry, but the picture his note paints is not someone who, "got royally fucked for doing nothing wrong at the hands of some fat pigs". No, it is of someone who attempted tax fraud more than once and got caught; of someone who never once in his life took personal responsibility for his actions and who instead saw himself as a martyr against capitalism.

Joe Stack was a nutjob. I feel for the injured IRS employees and I sincerely hope that the missing employee is found safe and unharmed. As for Mr. Stack, we're better off without him.

---------- Post added 02-18-2010 at 03:08 PM ----------

Me too. I feel like I'm living in the 90's again. Nothing like a Democrat in the white house to cause right wing crazies to start blowing shit up.

Except this guy was a left-wing crazy who was railing about how capitalism had screwed him over.

[Grimstad]

The saddest part is, his wife is left to deal with the problems he left behind. I understand his frustration all too well but he took the cowards way out.

[BlackOp]

Rumor has it that Hazmat trucks were parked across the street before it happened...and a few other "strange" things. I'm watching this closely......now, anyone who speaks in a dissenting manner could be labeled a potential "t@rrorist".

Is this the beginning of the war on "White American T@rror"? My intuition tells me this isnt good....

[Warrior]

Are we reading the same note?

To claim that signing a tax form to signify that everything is factual and true to the best of your understanding is equivalent to "duress" and a "totalitarian regime" pegs the ol' crazy indicator pretty damn high. Then he very vaguely talks about doing an unspecified something with unspecified someones (which makes it conveniently impossible to examine his claims critically) that seems to have clearly been tax fraud. The way he describes those acts seems to indicate a martyr complex ("bring about a much-needed re-evaluation", "monsters of organized religion", "the inquisition is still alive and well today", etc).

His complaining about the change to section 530 of the tax code is ultimately ridiculous. It didn't change the total tax burden on anyone as far as I can tell. Rather it merely changed the reporting and withholding requirements to make it much more difficult for 1099 workers to hide revenue from the IRS.

He goes on to blame the government for being fiscally responsible during a crisis (closing superfluous military bases to cut spending) and plays the victim yet again.

He goes on to blame the government once again for acting prudently (grounding flights after 9/11) and shows an inability to objectively evaluate a situation by calling a period of no more than two weeks an "eternity". He also blames the increased security measures for making flights "prohibitively expensive" yet offers no comparison between ticket prices (hint, ticket prices did not increase dramatically, which is why he doesn't list actual prices). He rails against the airline bailouts despite the fact that estimates are that the government saw a net profit of anywhere from $141 million to $327 million due to provisions that required the government to receive stock warrants from the bailed out companies.

He further goes on ranting about earning only 1/3 of his pre-dot-com-bust salary after moving from CA to TX (conveniently neglecting that cost of living in TX is much lower and salaries are correspondingly much lower than in CA) and accuses "4 large companies" of collusion to artificially keep wages low (neglecting the fact that the job market was positively flooded with programmers after the dot-com bust which naturally drives down wages).

He goes on to blame to government for his own failure to file a tax return (I'd thought it was common knowledge that one needed to at least file a return demonstrating that there was no tax liability, I'm certainly no CPA but I know enough to know this).

Finally, he blames his accountant for failing to include significant amounts of his wife's "undocumented income" despite there having been no conceivable way that the accountant could have known about this income since Mr. Stack never claims to have mentioned it.

Sorry, but the picture his note paints is not someone who, "got royally fucked for doing nothing wrong at the hands of some fat pigs". No, it is of someone who attempted tax fraud more than once and got caught; of someone who never once in his life took personal responsibility for his actions and who instead saw himself as a martyr against capitalism.

Joe Stack was a nutjob. I feel for the injured IRS employees and I sincerely hope that the missing employee is found safe and unharmed. As for Mr. Stack, we're better off without him.


I'd say that pretty well sums it up.

What I read was "I drifted through life without too much of a plan and all those bad things that happened couldn't possibly be my fault."

I loved the part about moving to Texas the best. If you're moving half the country away, wouldn't you check into what salary you could expect and the cost of living before you move?

[Seriously]

I don't think any of that makes him crazy. Just naive maybe?

My ex husband is like this in some ways. A rebel in a world where you can't afford to be one. It can make you bitter against the government and put you in massive debt. Not a good combination.

[Dodeca]

Before this happened Alex Jones said that the Neo-cons would stage these sorts of things to start the crack down on the tea parities (not to be confused with tea-baggers (IRS building plane crashers)).

[INTJRyan]

Except this guy was a left-wing crazy who was railing about how capitalism had screwed him over.

Of course. I mean liberals are well known for their anti-federal government rhetoric and willingness to push such rhetoric to actual violence. Also, this guy sounds NOTHING like those liberals who formed the Taxed Enough Already party. Total liberal.

[AaronSheffield]

Of course. I mean liberals are well known for their anti-federal government rhetoric and willingness to push such rhetoric to actual violence. Also, this guy sounds NOTHING like those liberals who formed the Taxed Enough Already party. Total liberal.

1) The rantings were anti-capitalist, not anti-government. The faults he finds with the government are not that it is overreaching or infringing upon individual liberties, but that it is granting too many liberties to businesses. He is not advocating smaller government, but rather different government.

2) His issues aren't with tax rates per se, but rather with his opinion that corporations are allowed to "cheat".

3) He ends the note by comparing Communism and Capitalism in a way that indicates a positive opinion of the former and a negative opinion of the latter.

Yes, he mentions taxes often, but his anger is not at the taxes themselves but in his (lunatic) view that the IRS is in the pocket of corporations and religious institutions.

If you think that only right-wingers can be against the current government then you're more than a little naive.

[Seriously]

You think it's a lunatic view that tax laws are slanted toward big corporations and religious institutions?

[Mader]

Sounds like he got himself into a mess with the IRS. Lots of people hate/resent the IRS. Lots of people try to get out of taxes.

I find the IRS has more power than any other department of the government and any other business. Don't mess with the IRS. And yes, when the IRS makes you sign a form, you don't truly have a choice, it is 'sign this or go to jail' Sounds like he may have been facing both.

Small and medium size businesses cannot grow or expand under the current taxes in this environment. If the economy was booming, then, OK. But now, no way in hell. Most companies are just trying to make payroll and keep the doors open (except WalMart which posted a 22% earnings increase today)

Yes, I agree he was crazy, and I would get a chuckle out of his craziness if an innocent person hadn't died today. His family had to turn to the Red Cross.

What he did is: If I can't have it then nobody can.

[AaronSheffield]

You think it's a lunatic view that tax laws are slanted toward big corporations and religious institutions?

Large corporations pay more in taxes, percentage-wise, than the majority of middle-class individuals. In fact, in order to be taxed at the same rate as a large corporation, an individual needs to make more than $373,650 per year. The average middle-class US Citizen who makes between $34,000 and $82,400 pays 25% in income taxes while large corporations pay 35%.

Yes, large corporations can take advantage of some things that individuals cannot, and yes, religious institutions enjoy very favorable status under the current tax laws. However, this is not anywhere near that same as the IRS being somehow a tool of these organizations. It's not lunacy to see that there are some advantages given to large corporations. It IS lunacy, however, to claim that the job market is controlled by 4 companies in collusion and that they government knows but ignores it because they are universally corrupt pawns of these corporations.

[Night Runner]

The man was clearly unstable. I'm not qualified to judge his sanity. His suicide note raises a few interesting questions, though. Looks like the bailout of the "too big to fail" companies was at least one of the reasons he snapped. He might have snapped anyway, but this is the first time I saw the bailout insanity mentioned as the cause for such violent behavior.

I'm willing to bet that he isn't the only unstable person out there - merely the one to throw the first stone. There may be more similar incidents in the near future, as people take out their frustration on others...

[Ray9]

Grab a seat and enjoy the show and hope you don't become part of it. This economy is going into the tank and an endless parade of loonies is just beginning. They'll be on the right and on the left because when things go bad the frustrated become the deranged and they view the problems through the private lens of their own delusions. Hope you like horror flicks. It's not going to be pretty.

[Cooper]

Of course. I mean liberals are well known for their anti-federal government rhetoric and willingness to push such rhetoric to actual violence. Also, this guy sounds NOTHING like those liberals who formed the Taxed Enough Already party. Total liberal.

Would you please give your definition of Liberal? I consider myself to be a Liberal and although I believe the government should be "Of the People, By the People, and For the People", I am not very big on flying anything bigger then a paper airplane into ANY building.

[Warrior]

You think it's a lunatic view that tax laws are slanted toward big corporations and religious institutions?

Religious institutions don't get a free pass on taxes. They can qualify for tax exempt status, as can other organizations. However, this is not automatic and the status can be revoked by participating in certain activities. (I believe it is also possible that a portion of an institution's income be granted tax exempt status.) Tax laws are not slanted toward religious institutions any more than they are toward non-religious groups that have the same tax status.

[BlackOp]

Youtube...live witness on NBC news. Said there was a firetruck and Hazmat conveniently waiting close by...TIME is already trying to associate this with the Tea Party....

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[nacht]

On one hand, this guy seems like a whiny little bitch, but on the other, gotta give him credit for putting his money where his mouth is.

Out of curiosity, was this your response to other terrorist attacks against the US and its interests, regardless of perpetrator?

[ya lyublyu tebya]

Whoa, wait, this guy was anti-capitalist? Okay, I could see a crazed right-winger who thinks the tea parties are too tame doing something like this, but a crazed left-winger? Great, now I feel even less safe in this country than when it was only the right wing threatening violence. :dead:

[ArtistTyrant]

leftists are historically much more likely to be violent or subversive than right-wing people

[BlackOp]

Whoa, wait, this guy was anti-capitalist? Okay, I could see a crazed right-winger who thinks the tea parties are too tame doing something like this, but a crazed left-winger? Great, now I feel even less safe in this country than when it was only the right wing threatening violence. :dead:

Ha...I'm buying a body scanner for my house.

If the news has taught me anything....it's not to trust my neighbor.

[Dodeca]

leftist are historically much more likely to be violent or subversive than right-wing people

citation needed, define leftist.

[AaronSheffield]

leftists are historically much more likely to be violent or subversive than right-wing people

Let me correct this for you...

crazy people are historically much more likely to be violent or subversive than sane people

Political ideology has nothing to do with it. Insanity exists (OK, thrives) on both ends of the spectrum.

[Grimstad]

I'd say that pretty well sums it up.

What I read was "I drifted through life without too much of a plan and all those bad things that happened couldn't possibly be my fault."

I loved the part about moving to Texas the best. If you're moving half the country away, wouldn't you check into what salary you could expect and the cost of living before you move?

BINGO.
Seriously, he screwed up. I read his suicide letter in it’s entirety just before I went to work and when I just walked in the door, there he is on CNN.

$40,000 in debt to the IRS. Not insurmountable. Unreported income from him AND his wife? Seriously?

So now a couple office workers are dead, probably a million or more dollars in damage, all over less than a $100,000 in bad judgment. How many office workers are now going to be missing a shitload of work because their office is gone? How much was that plane that he crashed worth? How much is that house that he burned up worth? I WISH I had a house to burn down or a plane to crash. He gets no sympathy from me.

[ArtistTyrant]

leftist, being of the radically "egalitarian" mindset...lets look at the 20th century

here's the Communists by themselves, 1918 onwards: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[Dodeca]

leftist, being of the radically "egalitarian" mindset...lets look at the 20th century

here's the Communists by themselves, 1918 onwards: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

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"Pure communism" in the Marxian sense refers to a classless, stateless and oppression-free society where decisions on what to produce and what policies to pursue are made democratically, allowing every member of society to participate in the decision making process in both the political and economic spheres of life. In modern usage, communism is often used to refer to the policies of the various which were authoritarian governments that had ownership of all the communist states means of production and centrally planned economies.

Fascism is a political ideology that seeks to combine radical and authoritarian nationalism with a corporatist economic system. Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state. Fascist governments forbid and suppress openness and opposition to the fascist state and the fascist movement. Fascism opposes class conflict, blames capitalism and liberal democracies for its creation, and accuses communists of exploiting the concept. Fascism fashioned itself as the "complete opposite of Marxian Socialism" by rejecting the economic and material conception of history, the fundamental belief of fascism being that human beings are motivated by glory and heroism rather than economic motives, in contrast to the worldview of capitalism and socialism.

[ArtistTyrant]

lol...they were Communists, Mussolini was a Fascist, and at least his country ran well

and Fascism is more about fostering a collective identity and seeking to make your nation strong through conflict, which is much more honest and real than focusing on trade more than your citizens (capitalism), or having false ideas of value of people (Communism and socialism)

[Night Runner]

Political ideology has nothing to do with it. Insanity exists (OK, thrives) on both ends of the spectrum.
Exactly! :thumbsup:

You guys are doing the same dance over and over - playing the blame game and trying to decide which party the guy belonged to. Can we take a break and look at the facts here? A more-or-less normal guy snapped and got so crazy/desperate that the only solution for him was crashing his plane into a building. Where I come from, that ain't exactly normal behavior. :rolleyes: We should be looking into the root causes of his behavior and psychosis - only then will we be able to prevent similar future occurrences. Playing blame games has never helped anybody.

[Aronnax]

He took the coward's way out, this particular method was selected so he could rationalize his behavior and leverage it as a soapbox. He didn't give a shit about what this would do to the families of the people inside that building or what his wife would go through after his suicide. This has almost nothing to do with politics and everything to do with petty narcissism.

[Grimstad]

While the left does have a sizable body count, they have been at it for a very long time. Now the right is much more efficient. They definitely get more bang for their buck

Communist Body count less than 1,000,000 per year.
Nazi body count 3,000,000 per year.

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That’s the only 2 body counts that site tracks, though only the link to the communist count is on their header.

So left or right, extremist governments are far from beneficial to their citizens.

[Kisai]

Honestly I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often.

I'm surprised he didn't give Tweets on his escapade.

[ArtistTyrant]

Nazis were socialists though, socialists are leftists...ZZZZZZZ

[Grimstad]

So you're saying that all those neo nazi's around today are left wingers?

[ArtistTyrant]

they aren't Nazis, Nazis were Nazis

[ya lyublyu tebya]

crazy people are historically much more likely to be violent or subversive than sane people

Political ideology has nothing to do with it. Insanity exists (OK, thrives) on both ends of the spectrum.

That's precisely the problem right there. ....If you find the sane people on either side, please give me a ring. Until then, I'll be in my bunker, rocking back and forth.

This guy was incredibly coherent, moreso than most people around where I live ever could be. He certainly wasn't sane, but he was a smarter and more dangerous type of lunatic than someone who accidentally hangs himself while suspending pro-/anti-(insert issue here) signs from an overpass. I really hope we don't see more of this in the future, but I have a feeling we will.

[AaronSheffield]

That's precisely the problem right there. ....If you find the sane people on either side, please give me a ring. Until then, I'll be in my bunker, rocking back and forth.

This guy was incredibly coherent, moreso than most people around where I live ever could be. He certainly wasn't sane, but he was a smarter and more dangerous type of lunatic than someone who accidentally hangs himself while suspending pro-/anti-(insert issue here) signs from an overpass. I really hope we don't see more of this in the future, but I have a feeling we will.

I can't agree that he was even moderately coherent. I just don't see a firm basis for anything he said. I mean, yes, there's some understanding since many people are frustrated by taxes and whatnot, but the ranting was pretty well detached from reality. In some ways it read like some screed from an emo kid complaining about his parents ("life's not fair", "other people get special treatment", "they're all out to get me").

His sort has always been around and always will be around. I don't see any way around it.

[Four]

eh, other than the Communism part, he's right..the US is a sinking ship of corruption and greed, it has already hit the iceburg

Yeah, it's been a 'preexisting condition' for quite some time.

[ArtistTyrant]

about 75 years lmao

[Grimstad]

they aren't Nazis, Nazis were Nazis
Well, let’s see. Nazism
According to Webster
the body of political and economic doctrines held and put into effect by the Nazis in Germany from 1933 to 1945 including the totalitarian principle of government, predominance of especially Germanic groups assumed to be racially superior, and supremacy of the führer.

That’s actually the best “dictionary” definition I can find. All the others I found say much less

Please excuse me for quoting Wikipedia but here goes.

Nazism (Nationalsozialismus, National Socialism), variously denotes the totalitarian ideology and practice of the Nazi Party (National Socialist German Workers’ Party), and Adolf Hitler’s government as dictator of Nazi Germany, from 1933 to 1945.

Politically, National Socialism is a variety of fascism that incorporated elements from left-wing and right-wing ideologies, but, in practice, is a form of far right politics. In Germany, the Nazis were one of several political organizations who used the term National Socialism to describe their ideology, and themselves as National Socialists; in the 1920s, the Nazis became the greatest such political group. In 1920, the Nazi Party presented its 25 point National Socialist Program, its key elements being anti-parliamentarism (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts._of_parliamentarianism), Pan-Germanism (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), racism (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), collectivism (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), Social Darwinism (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), eugenics (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), anti-semitism (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), anti-Communism (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), totalitarianism (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), and opposition to economic (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) and politica (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)l liberalism.

With very few exceptions, all of that sounds very far right to me.

[ArtistTyrant]

Nazis weren't that collectivists, but okay

the majority of Neo Nazis are ethnic Europeans of poor stock, who try to base their identity on what the superior members of their races have accomplished, instead of what they've accomplished

the real Nazis were much different, consisting of some brave and intelligent men that fought for their nation, had an accurate view of many things, and strove for truth that Germanics (Aryans), which encompasses most Europeans and all of Western Europeans, are the dominant racial group throughout history, bringing the power of genius and civilization to light, and creating 99% of scientific inventions after the start of the Renaissance...there is nothing wrong with having an accurate view of history, and yet most people today consider that as some sort of a crime

okay? okay :)

[BlackOp]

Am I the only one that finds it odd that an IRS building was empty at 10:00 am on a Thursday? There has to be more to this story...

[ArtistTyrant]

the employees were probably on a union mandated break >_>

[BlackOp]

the employees were probably on a union mandated break >_>

Maybe they were "line dancing" with the Hazmat team...;)

[thod]

A brave man and a sane man. It is those who persist in hiding behind self-delusion that are insane. His action was symbolic though. It has never been about how many you kill but about who you kill that matters. A damaged building will be repaired with tax payers money and low level drones do not matter to the system.

He would have been far more effective with a sniper rifle picking off the men who wield the power. If he had to crash a plane into something, then let it be a TV transmitter. Without their TV sets the US public would be lost, they may even wake up. Such an act would scare the authorities much more since they would have no way to disseminate their spin.

[BlackOp]

He would have been far more effective with a sniper rifle picking off the men who wield the power. .

Yeah...bring ACTUAL fear to those that have been providing it. See how they like their "freedom" disrupted...

Something smells about this whole deal...house fire/arson=no insurance but has a family. Cant pay taxes but owns a plane. Building empty. Hazmat standing by. Suicide note...Texas Governor race.

[zibber]

Argh. Obviously, every last bit of coverage of this ordeal will be about the experience, the human interest stories, the eye witness accounts. Imagine some ideological terrorism being examined at its roots? Imagine news stations devoting their time to figuring out why this would happen, not simply how and when it did?

Why is it that a handful of thugs and plunderers can commit unthinkable atrocities (and in the case of the GM executives, for scores of years) and when it’s time for their gravy train to crash under the weight of their gluttony and overwhelming stupidity, the force of the full federal government has no difficulty coming to their aid within days if not hours? Yet at the same time, the joke we call the American medical system, including the drug and insurance companies, are murdering tens of thousands of people a year and stealing from the corpses and victims they cripple, and this country’s leaders don’t see this as important as bailing out a few of their vile, rich cronies. Yet, the political “representatives” (thieves, liars, and self-serving scumbags is far more accurate) have endless time to sit around for year after year and debate the state of the “terrible health care problem”. It’s clear they see no crisis as long as the dead people don’t get in the way of their corporate profits rolling in.

Shit. Fair enough.

And if the building was really empty, that's a pretty well thought out move.


He would have been far more effective with a sniper rifle picking off the men who wield the power. If he had to crash a plane into something, then let it be a TV transmitter. Without their TV sets the US public would be lost, they may even wake up. Such an act would scare the authorities much more since they would have no way to disseminate their spin.

That would have been more gratifying, for sure, but there's a long line of people anxious to fill the shoes of any offed exec. The only structural solution is revolution.

[Grimstad]

1 dead and 11 injured (not including the pilot). For people that start at 8 am, 10 am would be a typical break time (union or not). Keep lookin guys. I’m sure you’ll find that conspiracy somewhere.

Fair enough? He sets his house on fire with his wife and daughter there? His family is homeless and his wife is still on the hook for taxes and they don’t even have a home or plane to sell to pay it off. If that was well thought out then I would have to say his real problem is with his family and the IRS was just collateral damage. Yes, a real hero.

[IrishGuy]

I'm just surprised that I didn't hear every media outlet screaming TERRORIST!!!! Particularly, due to the symbolism of ramming a plane into a building, but then again this is the IRS and not the Pentagon.

EDIT:
I'm serious, that I'm surprised, I don't/didn't see the guy as a terrorist. However, thinking back there was Cory Lidle (Yankee pitcher) who died when his Cessna crashed into a building in Manhattan, and everyone was panicking that it was a terrorist attack (before they realized it was a Yankee pitcher and probably pilot error/mechanical malfunction).

[BlackOp]

1 dead and 11 injured (not including the pilot). For people that start at 8 am, 10 am would be a typical break time (union or not). Keep lookin guys. I’m sure you’ll find that conspiracy somewhere.

Fair enough? He sets his house on fire with his wife and daughter there? His family is homeless and his wife is still on the hook for taxes and they don’t even have a home or plane to sell to pay it off. If that was well thought out then I would have to say his real problem is with his family and the IRS was just collateral damage. Yes, a real hero.

Well that settles that....ha. Certainly the entire office evacuates when that 10 o'clock bell rings...the coffee machine is probably in the next building. Hazmat is now psychic...You do understand whats been going on this week with the Texas governor race right? The whole 9*11 smear BS then a plane smashes into a government building? The timing is what strikes me as odd....this is far from some random guy losing his shit. IMO. The dots arent matching...

[Grimstad]

Well that settles that....ha. Certainly the entire office evacuates when that 10 o'clock bell rings...the coffee machine is probably in the next building. Hazmat is now psychic...You do understand whats been going on this week with the Texas governor race right? The whole 9*11 smear BS then a plane smashes into a government building? The timing is what strikes me as odd....this is far from some random guy losing his shit. IMO. The dots arent matching...

Well obviously the WHOLE building didn’t empty out. 12 people took damage. Have you ever had a job, actually working with other people? Did you ever notice all those people hanging out at the nearest smoke hole? Do you think they all arranged to meet there at a specific time?

So you have an alleged truther running. BFD. I am not surprised. Hey, here’s a little fuel for your fire. I read that the FBI and CIA have offices in that very building. Ready? Set..... GO

[BlackOp]

Well obviously the WHOLE building didn’t empty out. 12 people took damage. Have you ever had a job, actually working with other people? Did you ever notice all those people hanging out at the nearest smoke hole? Do you think they all arranged to meet there at a specific time?

So you have an alleged truther running. BFD. I am not surprised. Hey, here’s a little fuel for your fire. I read that the FBI and CIA have offices in that very building. Ready? Set..... GO

Yeah...go ahead and insult me. Yes..I have had a job. :thinking: You seem to be arguing something I have little interest in..and that is the need to protect the "official" story. Mine is more about seeking clarification...shit isnt matching up. I dont know how you can be SO sure about this in one day..so sure that you have to sling personal digs to reinforce it. Honestly, I hope you're correct..

Is it threatening that this whole scenario could be BS...Whatever it is...I dont care, truly. I'm going to keep questioning until I'M satisfied...your personal digs are irrelevant in that pursuit. Sorry...wrong person, wrong site.

[Grimstad]

Well that settles that....ha. Certainly the entire office evacuates when that 10 o'clock bell rings...the coffee machine is probably in the next building. Hazmat is now psychic...You do understand whats been going on this week with the Texas governor race right? The whole 9*11 smear BS then a plane smashes into a government building? The timing is what strikes me as odd....this is far from some random guy losing his shit. IMO. The dots arent matching...

When someone hands me ridicule and sarcasm I tend to hand it right back

I dont know how you can be SO sure about this in one day.

[Shauru]

Do you have any real proposal to offer the class for consideration or are you going to scream conspiracy until someone agrees?
If so, maybe we should start checking the numbers. Find out his zodiac symbols, the plane number, his social security number, house adress, age, birthdate.

The fact that it's tax season in a recession and he owes money does indeed seem like bad timing. Why kill yourself and attempt to kill IRS workers if you owe the IRS money? It can't be that simple. It doesn't add up.

I too am confused, but I assure you we will get to the bottom of this together. I'll go get my tea leaves, do you have ouiji board?

When I saw this whole thing I really thought oh, well that's interesting. I think we should all wonder why there never was an attempt on the IRS before, it just seems logical.

[AaronSheffield]

house fire/arson=no insurance but has a family.

This can be easily explained by the tautology, "crazy people are crazy". I'm not sure why you think it's odd that a lunatic didn't think everything through as far as providing for his family.

Cant pay taxes but owns a plane.

Correction: Won't pay taxes, but owns a plane. None of the evidence I've seen indicates that his refusal to pay taxes was based on inability.

Building empty.

1 dead and 11 injured hardly indicates "empty". It doesn't even indicate that the impact area was particularly evacuated.

Colgan Air flight 3407 (which was a 78 passenger Bombardier DHC-8-402) crashed into a small house. 1 person in the house was killed, while the other two people who were in the house at the same time received only minor injuries. If 2 out of 3 people survive when a much larger and faster plane hit a much smaller and more vulnerable building it becomes perfectly obvious that the number of casualties in the IRS building was pretty much in line with what should be expected.

Hazmat standing by.

There's a difference between "happened to be there" and "standing by". Believe it or not, emergency responders do find themselves in the right place at the right time on occasion.

Suicide note...

Considering that it's very common for suicides to leave a note, I don't see how the existence of the note should be considered exceptional in any way.

Texas Governor race.

What about it? How would this event help any of the candidates/parties? The note makes it very clear that Stock wasn't a supporter of any candidate or party and there's nothing that would suggest any motive other than insanity.

Even taken collectively, the issues you list don't even rise to the level of being suggestive, let alone persuasive.

[darynthe]

Rumor has it that Hazmat trucks were parked across the street before it happened...and a few other "strange" things. I'm watching this closely......now, anyone who speaks in a dissenting manner could be labeled a potential "t@rrorist".

Is this the beginning of the war on "White American T@rror"? My intuition tells me this isnt good....

Well good luck guys. After Sep/11 the CIA had people who ate Shawarmas on the potential terrorist list.

What imaginative ways they will find now?

[Seriously]

I found it odd that there weren't more casualties as well. I drive by the building on my way to work and the hole it made was pretty impressive.

And why set the house on fire with his daughter and wife in it?

[void]

The American news media has gone out of its way to emphasize that this was not a terrorist attack. White American dude flies plane into building = not a terrorist. Brown Arabs fly plane into building = terrorist!!one!

Got it.

[AaronSheffield]

The American news media has gone out of its way to emphasize that this was not a terrorist attack. White American dude flies plane into building = not a terrorist. Brown Arabs fly plane into building = terrorist!!one!

Got it.

To be fair:

Single individual with the objective of ending his own life while striking out at a single, specific agency as a retaliatory attack = Not a terror attack.

Multiple individuals with an extensive backing network and training striking out at a culture with the intent of using fear of future attacks as a political weapon to force changes in political policy = terror attack.

"Terrorism" is not inherent in the specific action, but in the motivation behind it. This was no more a "terror attack" than were Ruby Ridge, Jonestown, Waco, or Heaven's Gate. The racial identity of the perpetrator is purely coincidental.

[Synamon]

I found it odd that there weren't more casualties as well. I drive by the building on my way to work and the hole it made was pretty impressive.

And why set the house on fire with his daughter and wife in it?
They weren't in it. The wife had left to stay at a hotel the night before.

I had first hand experience with a crazy like this. My husband's step-brother flew his plane into the front window of his girlfriend's house when she wouldn't do what he wanted. When someone is this irrational all they are thinking about is how to lash out and make the biggest splash possible.

A young child's tantrum is a gross over reaction as well; a yelling and screaming fit until the child stops breathing is not on par with refusing to buy the child a chocolate bar. The perceived wrong doesn't have to be major, his over reaction is leading all of you to believe otherwise since none of you would crash into a building over something minor. But he would and did.

[Seriously]

It was originally reported they were in the house. Now it looks like they drove up right before the firefighters got there which is why there was some confusion.

[BlackOp]

Even taken collectively, the issues you list don't even rise to the level of being suggestive, let alone persuasive.

Well...I'm going to sit back and wait. I'm just asking questions....not really trying to "persuade". I dont know what really happened any more than you...this is a pretty rare occurrence. The guy had a kid...makes me wonder.

[phej]

BlackOp, why are you looking for a conspiracy theory? The guy snapped.

[BlackOp]

BlackOp, why are you looking for a conspiracy theory? The guy snapped.

Knowing the history of government, nature of propaganda, and PSYOP techniques ...I question anything extreme/anti-government like this. Could this guy have snapped...sure. Have governments used events like this to "win hearts and minds"...yes. So I'm pointing out things out that seemed suspicious ....Hopefully, I'm wrong.

If not blindly trusting the official story make me a "conspiracy theorist"...so be it. I know better. Government has proven over and over to be compulsive liars... Do you trust compulsive liars in your life? They dont get free pass...and I'm not a sucker. I'm sitting on my branch, watching....

[Lonpone]

The man seems like he had stress problems and couldn't deal with it any more. Reading his death letter, he mentions previous divorce, failed job oppurtunities, and run in with the laws (due to his own incompetence). Bring up the fact he was arguing with his wife before the incident, which caused her to go to the hotel with their child was probably a tipping point. Man had trauma and had to take it out on someone.

As for the low casualty rate, unless we know how many people work there and what those office spaces where used for, creating conspirancy is pointless. Whole level could've been filled with file cabinets, spare meeting rooms, server rooms, you name it. I don't think I've ever seen any government office brimming with people. Conspiracy is silly.

[AaronSheffield]

Knowing the history of government, nature of propaganda, and PSYOP techniques ...I question anything extreme/anti-government like this. Could this guy have snapped...sure. Have governments used events like this to "win hearts and minds"...yes. So I'm pointing out things out that seemed suspicious ....Hopefully, I'm wrong.

Yes, politicians will try to take advantage of situations like this, but that doesn't mean they engineered the situations in the first place.

Is it technically possible that this was an engineered scenario? Sure. Just like it's technically possible that I'm actually an NSA operative whose mission is to infiltrate internet forums and monitor anti-government activity. For that matter, it's technically possible that you are a government agent who is assigned to goad us into disproving what you post and thereby ensure that we never find out that you're actually posting the truth. ;)

The chances of something like any of the above actually being true are sufficiently remote as to be reasonably discarded from consideration. In fact, the chances are so remote that it would take a significant amount of evidence merely to justify any investigation into such things.

[Ray9]

He would have been far more effective with a sniper rifle picking off the men who wield the power. If he had to crash a plane into something, then let it be a TV transmitter. Without their TV sets the US public would be lost, they may even wake up. Such an act would scare the authorities much more since they would have no way to disseminate their spin.


You mean like this guy?


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[SeaCzar]

Left wing? Right wing? Conspiracy theories?

Man who refuses to pay the IRS, gets in trouble for it, torches house and flies plane into building = nutjob.

[Lucid]

Political ideology has nothing to do with it. Insanity exists (OK, thrives) on both ends of the spectrum.

Exactly. And if you read the note it's pretty apparent that he was neither left wing nor right wing. He had issues with both ends of the political spectrum.

He took the coward's way out, this particular method was selected so he could rationalize his behavior and leverage it as a soapbox. He didn't give a shit about what this would do to the families of the people inside that building or what his wife would go through after his suicide. This has almost nothing to do with politics and everything to do with petty narcissism.

Yeah, I think this was more about suicide than about politics. The politics of it are just an excuse. Lots of people get fucked by the government and the IRS and don't go fly airplanes into buildings. Likewise, a lot of the people who do commit acts like these don't get fucked by the government any more than any of the rest of us.

[Grimstad]

Even a 45 year old piper cherokee is worth $50,000. That would have almost eliminated his debt.

[cannotseethe]

"Terrorism" is not inherent in the specific action, but in the motivation behind it. This was no more a "terror attack" than were Ruby Ridge, Jonestown, Waco, or Heaven's Gate. The racial identity of the perpetrator is purely coincidental.

From here (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.):
Domestic terrorism refers to activities that involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any state; appear to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; to influence the policy of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States. [18 U.S.C. § 2331(5)]

Stack satisfies this definition of domestic terrorism. He was motivated to influence the policy of the government. The rest is obvious.

Regarding Stack's motivations, his own manifesto supplies adequate proof, it would seem:
I remember reading about the stock market crash before the "great" depression and how there were wealthy bankers and businessmen jumping out of windows when they realized they screwed up and lost everything. Isn't it ironic how far we've come in 60 years in this country that they now know how to fix that little economic problem; they just steal from the middle class (who doesn't have any say in it, elections are a joke) to cover their asses and it's "business-as-usual" . . . . Sadly, though I spent my entire life trying to believe it wasn’t so, but violence not only is the answer, it is the only answer.

Nutjob or not, the guy was a domestic terrorist.

[Syntax]

Why do people keep calling him Joseph Stack? I'm pretty sure his real name is Ragnar Danneskjöld.


Congrats. He's a human being.




[edit] seems like a bit of an overreaction, though. I hate to say "love it or leave it"...but why not? SURELY there are plenty of countries one could go to that are better than a fiery death...

[Aronnax]

Well, like most of Rand's "heroic" characters Joseph Stack did exhibit symptoms of NPD but there wasn't much piracy involved.

Edit~ Even "accept it or leave it" works. Stack wanted all the benefits of a mature society but resented the responsibilities associated with living in one. Nobody was making him live in the US, if he found the burdens associated with citizenship too heavy he had the resources necessary to leave.

This wasn't about an unbearable burden, it was a petty cop-out covered with a thin veil of outrage. How much harder would it have been to keep flying until he ended up in Mexico?

[Grimstad]

This is Stack’s home. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)
These are Stack’s neighbors. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)
This is Stack’s neighborhood. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)
This is a $25,000 version of Stack’s plane (cheap and used. That’s the starting price. They go up to $65,000) (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.(9).JPG)
I would LOVE to have what Stack had, even WITH the debt.

[BlackOp]

This wasn't about an unbearable burden, it was a petty cop-out covered with a thin veil of outrage. How much harder would it have been to keep flying until he ended up in Mexico?

That's the angle I've been thinking...the guy had resources. That and the anti-IRS tirade...somethings not sitting well with me. I'm not saying the story isnt 100% correct but people this extreme usually verbally let is out. .."fuck the IRS., they ruined my life". He wasnt destitute...

It's extreme to kill yourself....especially with a wife/kid. It's even more extreme to kill strangers with a plane. Burning the house that survivors live in is odd. Leaving a public "manifesto" online is strange. Nobody knowing how angry you are.....impossible. IMO.

[Grimstad]

I'm not saying the story isnt 100% correct
Actually, that’s exactly what you’re saying

people this extreme usually verbally let is out. He did
fuck the IRS., they ruined my life". …. Leaving a public "manifesto" online.
The problem with thinking about things from an “angle” is you tend to miss what is right in front of you.

. Nobody knowing how angry you are.....impossible. IMO. Everybody that read his online tirade knows exactly how angry he is. Not to mention the people that actually know him personally
Stack's father-in-law, Jim Cook, said there had been worry in Stack's family very recently about Stack's state of mind regarding his tax problems.
"She had a bit of a problem with him," Cook said, referring to his daughter, heryl. "And evidently, in the last few days ... it boiled in his brain. She informed us that she thought he was crazy."

Just because WE don’t know the details, doesn’t mean they aren’t there.

[BlackOp]

Well...I'm going to roll with my intuition. I'll leave it at that....*flies back to branch*.

The people of Austin are fortunate that Hazmat and the fire department were there. That building could have burned to the ground. Sometimes you just get lucky....right place, right time. Does anyone have information on what they were doing there before the plane struck....and how long that meet up was planned?

[Ray9]

This man may have been frustrated and disillusioned with government and the IRS. He probably felt overwhelmed and helpless in the face of what he saw as corruption and abuse of power, Of course we all know the government would never be corrupt and abusive.


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Two government abuse incidents that led directly to this:


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[reb]

i am completely certain the government is blameless in this incident and all others. obviously, the serfs of this country are wrong in their thinking....the government always knows best. this man saved the dict...uh, the protectors from spending our tax dollars messing with him. clearly, he was 100% in the wrong.