INFJ: I fear that I am desperately in love with an INTJ.

[green eyes]

I am so perplexed. I am an INFJ, and I fear that I am desperately in love with an INTJ. I wish I knew how he feels about me....

10 years ago we were both very much crazy about each other; we were each other's "first love". He was very dedicated to his Christianity, and soon after he graduated from high school, he broke up with me for fear that his strong sexual desire for me would lead him to stray from God. He had also planned to join the Marines but didn't because he wanted to completely immerse himself in serving the Lord. We remained friends for years after our break-up; he was always the one to pop up to visit me or call to see how I was doing. As a hopeless romantic, I guess I never fully got over him. Right now, by no fault of his own, his life is trainwreck. About a year ago I wrote him a letter, confessing that I had been dreaming about him, and that I wanted to see him. We met, and we almost kissed...but I wouldn't let it happen because he seemed so unsure about how to handle the situation, partially because of the uncertainty of his future. The chemistry between us was very obvious. After our encounter, I wrote to him everyday for about a week and a half. I don't know if I scared him, or if he was really thinking the situation over...because he pretty much ignored me. My husband and I (yes, I'm married!) were sleeping in separate rooms at the time and had been talking of separation...I went ahead and kicked him out. Eventually my INTJ interest told me that I was a wonderful person, but he didn't feel like we were "fated" to be. We have remained e-mail buddies throughout the past year, but I've felt like it has been mostly one-sided (mine). I didn't hear from him for about 2 months, and then, about one week ago, he contacted me with a very emotional e-mail. His situation has gotten more dire, and I fear that he is just obsessing over the past as a result of stress...I'm also worried that he is only resorting to me because the people in his life are dwindling down to almost no one. He wishes that he had slept with me all of those years ago...that his service to God was a waste. He said that he really appreciated my friendship, and he even told me that if I was lonely and wanted "some", to let him know. He has always been a mentor to me, and to see his morals in such a miserable state is deeply disturbing. I am not going to sleep with him, but I did tell him that I still dream about him often. I am always very honest with him...I even always state my love (like family) for him at the end of all of my correspondence... I think I've been in denial about the kind of love I'm feeling, and I really want to let him know. I should also mention that I am back with my husband, but we are still troubled....

Is his e-mail a sign of possible feelings, or has he just "snapped"?

From what I've read about INTJs, I think it's out of their nature to lie about their feelings. It sounds very odd to me.

Also, I think once we INFJs feel like we've really "connected" with someone, we can have trouble letting go...and INTJs are so stimulating! My husband is an ENFP, and despite the fact that many websites claim that ENFPS are ideal/natural matches for both INTJs and INFJs, I find communicating with him very frustrating. It's like we are on two different planets...he is very superficial and easy-going...and I am not.

Does anyone have any advice for me?
I'm not a delicate flower....
If you have anything, please dish it.
I feel as if I'm going crazy!
I want to cut him out of my life, just so I won't have to deal with him always in my head.
He used to be so strong and independent, like most INTJs, but I'm worried that now, he may need me....

[PortInStorm]

As I see it, he's weak and tempted, thinking about doing something he considers wrong because of hard times. You know how you can be supportive and not tempt him -I don't. He probably left you alone for a bit because you were married and since you almost kissed, he didn't want to be a cheater with you.

[green eyes]

Thank you for posting.

So, is it possibly just a desire to rebell by having sex? Or, is it just a wanting to let go...from being so worn down from a lack of control...just not wanting to care anymore?
There are no feelings attached?
I mean, isn't it hard for INTJs to have sex with someone for purely animal-like reasons?

I don't think I've done much to tempt him in the past year.
Although, the last e-mail I sent him before his emotional outburst had the subject line: "Somebody's Me"...I was starting to really come to terms with the fact that I might be head over heels for him....It's not the first time I've felt that way; I just keep rationalizing it away. I don't want to this time.
I don't know if he understood what I meant by "Somebody's Me"...I was referring to a popular Enrique Iglesias song about wanting to be with someone again. It was a silly hidden message.

My husband knows almost the full scope of what's going on here; he even knows that I love my INTJ interest...and that I was offered sex. What he doesn't know, however, is that I fear I am absolutely crazy for my INTJ.

[PortInStorm]

No, in fact it may be very easy for an INTJ to have sex to relieve sexual tension, get their mind off something else- in essence, a utilitarian view of sex. Certainly there may be feelings attached, but does that matter? You seem to be asking if he loves you back, looking for rationale to get him to sleep with you ("He wants it too!")... wouldn't you rather be asking what would truly be best for him (ie. being able to live with himself after you wash the sheets)? Isn't that love, and don't you want to rise above lust and offer him love, support as you put it? Perhaps you don't, but then don't post under the guise that you want to 'be there for him'- be honest, it's anonymous anyways.

You say "crazy about" and "head over heals", not love- I think that's accurate. Love would take into consideration that 'your' INTJ will regret having relations with you, and you're giving him signals that it would be great, you'd be all for it, luring him in with innuendo like "Somebody's Me"- of course he'd get that. If you really think he's worn out from controlling himself, looking to rebel, maybe you'd better suck it up and get out of his life til he gets back in control and isn't in danger of doing something he'd regret.

In all honesty, I didn't want to originally reply because this whole situation is so messed up I'll never be able to address all the pathology going on in it.

[green eyes]

Thanks...you made me laugh! It is a very crazy situation...I kinda wish you would address more, but I totally understand not wanting to.
I'm sure it's obvious how confused I am.

I did say that I'm not going to sleep with him, and I did state that after his emotional e-mail, I told him that I still dream about him...but I should've stated that I actually told him that I WON'T have sex with him. Also, in a subtle way, I tried to encourage him to be strong again....
In the emotional e-mail, after offering sex, he said, "I'm a whore now." That ruined it for me. If he is just wanting to act "whoreish"; I won't support that. He is SOOOO much better than that.
But I was still left wandering if he didn't mean it in the way I took it. His e-mail was long, and oddly, it didn't seem to be thought through. I've been trying to figure out if there is maybe more behind it.

Yes, I guess he probably knows I want him...especially after telling him that I still dream about him. I am very strong-willed, though...I won't break from his sexual advances.

And I am there for him...I'm supporting him in ways that he doesn't even know about. I just want to tell him how much I really, really, really want to be with him...forever.

[nero4alcia]

I'm glad to see people are also helping you out nluvw1, your situation is probably much worse than mine, though right now I envy you. While I'm waiting for things to cool down between the two of us, I will try my best to help you out. :)

[jwp4]

...his emotional e-mail...In the emotional e-mail, after offering sex, he said, "I'm a whore now.".....But I was still left wandering if he didn't mean it in the way I took it. His e-mail was long, and oddly, it didn't seem to be thought through. I've been trying to figure out if there is maybe more behind it.


Are you sure he is INTJ? I just joined the forums because it is refreshing to be around others who get me. This guy doesn't seem very much like me or the people on this board. Even when I get crazy, I'm very in control.

I don't study personality profiles, but he seems irrational, emotional, and scatter-brained.

[green eyes]

Yes, I'm sure. For one thing, he told me that he is an INTJ, and for another thing, I've thoroughly read up on your personality type. I've known him for 10 years now, and the behavior he has been exhibiting lately is FAR from his usual self. That's why I wonder if he has just "snapped". His situation is probably a lot worse than most of us could even imagine...I wish I felt that I could go into details....

Thank you all for your posts!!! Keep 'em comin'!

[Parallel]

Is his e-mail a sign of possible feelings, or has he just "snapped"?

I don't think he sounds too atypical for an INTJ, I can definitely see the way that INTJs can pull in people when they might act erratically as your INTJ guy is doing. I found that when I was younger and was very wish-washy with my feelings about a guy, the more they felt like they were in love with me. It's all wrong, I don't think that's ever a good situation for anyone to be in.

Sounds to me like a typical INTJ, realizing that he needs "the one" when it's convenient for him. But just because he realizes it only now may not mean he's just playing with you; maybe he really does feel like now is the right time for him to fully feel his feelings for you. I don't know, if I were you, I'd think about who I'd really rather be with right now, since it sounds to me like you have more passion for the INTJ guy than you do for your husband. It sounds like all this emotional turmoil is coming from you being in denial about what you really want. But then again your husband is the guy whom you've made a commitment to so maybe all you really need is some marriage counseling to get things right with your husband and establish your feelings for the INTJ guy as strictly friendly.

[green eyes]

I really appreciate all of this INTJ insight.

We've been to counseling, and that only seemed to make things worse...'cause I'm supposed to respect my husband and stuff like that...and frankly, he's an idiot. Even my conservative Christian parents are behind me leaving him.... I was very in love when I got married, but I was also 18 and "knocked up". I've helped him turn into a man...he was such a boy when we got married. The reason we separated in the first place was because he was asexual and very apathetic towards me...my INTJ interest is very aware of this, but I don't know if my INTJ interest knows that I'm actually WITH my husband right now...we've been so off and on. I don't know if this makes me pathetic or incredibly strong for my daughter's sake. My husband is REALLY trying right now, and progress is happening. You’re right Parallel; I don’t know what I REALLY want….

I should be devoted to my husband, but I’m not. He would be devastated if he lost me. I am a very touchy-feely and passionate person, but I can only feel that way with one person at a time. I know that my husband knows something is wrong when I don't even have a desire to hug him. All of my affection right now is aimed towards my INTJ interest. I have rationalized these feelings away before...just pushed them out of my mind...and my husband and I were able to really work on things.

My INTJ SHOULD KNOW that sex is a big deal for me...it is a very emotional and spiritual experience. I've made that clear. Did he forget? Why would he offer sex if he knew that I'd only go for it if I knew we had a chance? Was I supposed to "get" that he has been thinking about me fondly... a lot lately? The last time I saw my INTJ in person, about a year ago, I wanted him badly, but I wouldn't even kiss him unless I knew we could possibly go somewhere. With his crazy situation, is it possible that he worded his e-mail that way because he has feelings for me, like you said, but he feels like he CAN'T be attached to anyone right now...it's not fair. Maybe he was hoping that I had changed my perceptions on sex...that he could have something without really HAVING something?

I do fantasize about going in that direction, but I won’t…it wouldn't be right. Yes, 2ndtimestudent, we both would regret it. We just don't play that way.

I suppose, objectively, this love stuff doesn't really matter, 'cause it makes better sense for me and my INTJ to part our ways and move on, but I'm a hopeless romantic.... I love him, and without even saying anything, he makes me want to be my very best (I suppose all of you INTJs might have that about you). It just feels “right” to be around someone that notices you, even the smallest little silly things, and they appreciate it. It's nice to be around someone that is more on same level with values, intelligence, and interests....

I must say, if he would open up and say, “I love you, I need you, please be by my side”, I would have a VERY hard time not doing so….

Nero4alicia, why on Earth do you envy me???

[Aurelia]

Right now, by no fault of his own, his life is trainwreck.
His situation has gotten more dire, and I fear that he is just obsessing over the past as a result of stress...I'm also worried that he is only resorting to me because the people in his life are dwindling down to almost no one.

Is his e-mail a sign of possible feelings, or has he just "snapped"?

Can I ask what happened in his life that has caused him to renounce his faith? That does sound pretty serious for someone who has been a Christian for nearly 10 years. Since you've kept in contact with him and if he truly feels alone you may be the only person he can talk to. Especially if all of his friends belong to the same church group that he's been associating with.

Beginning a relationship when he's so obviously lost, confused and upset just doesn't sound like a good idea. While you haven't had a sexual relationship, the two of you are in an emotional affair. Who knows what he will think after the stressful situations blow over? His passions could very well turn into feeling repulsed about how he handled everything.

Until he is past dealing with whatever it is he is going through, leave him alone. You have a commitment to your husband. Honor that commitment by ending your affair with the INTJ.

[green eyes]

Jennifer808, I think I really needed that to be said. I think that deep down, I really do know that he is too lost for a relationship. He isn’t acting like the man I fantasize of being with. When I rejected his offer for sex, I did also tell him that a year ago, when I obviously wanted him and wrote him a letter everyday for about a week and a half, that I was falling hard, partially for his old self, someone that NOW doesn’t seem to exist anymore….

I want the old INTJ, not this messed-up version, but a part of me feels like I AM willing to wait around and help him come back to his senses. Though, I don’t want him to get involved with me for the wrong reasons…I surely don’t want him to regret even having a romantic relationship with me.
Typical INFJ- I feel like love can heal all wounds.

I keep doubting and over-analyzing everything!

And no, I don’t feel like I can explain his situation, even though this is practically an anonymous forum.

As much as I want to walk away completely and not even be a friend, ‘cause it may be best for MY (and my husband's) sake, how can I if I’m one of the only people he has to confide in? I care too much!

Thod, I’ve read that before on Socionics…but I’m not sure if it helps me, unless you’re trying to tell me that INTJs and INFJs don’t really work out on an intimate level. Care to elaborate?

What you quoted did make me think of something else that I think I should mention:
One of the things I wrote to him right before the “Somebody’s Me” e-mail was something like, “It really hurts to watch all of this happening to you…I can be so black and white about things…I have trouble finding a middle ground…I find myself crying from time to time and getting really pissed because of your situation…I’ll think about you way too much…so I just force myself not to for awhile…I guess it’s best that I don’t get too involved…” What I was trying to say here is that I felt like he was keeping me at a distance, as a friend, and I wanted him to know that it’s probably for the best, anyways. I think I was also trying to rationalize my intense feelings about his life’s circumstances. I can be very passionate about things I care about.
What message do ya’ll think I may have given him? How do ya’ll think he took that? Or does it even matter? I mean, he replied with a lot of emotion! I can't stand not knowing…

Basically from all of your posts, this is what I think I am getting:
He may be feeling something for me, but if he is, those feelings aren’t rational…because he is in a very confused state…and it would be dangerous and stupid to pursue anything with him.
Is that right?

[Aurelia]

Sort of. I don't believe that feelings are rational regardless of your state of mind. They simply indicate a deeper psychological need. Just as you mentioned that he doesn't resemble the man you originally fell in love with I was thinking about how you may be attracted to the potential your relationship with him once had rather than what things are in reality. You might be consumed with this INTJ because he represents something in your life that hasn't been fulfilled. Neither of you love one another for who you truly are.

Due to how passionate you feel about him, I don't think you are objective enough to help him out as a friend only. The desire you have to be with him is just too overwhelming. The emotional relationship you have with him is already adversely affecting your marriage. Your marriage is what needs the attention not this fantasy you have going on in your head about what could have been or what should have been. What is more important to you right now? Your marriage or this fantasy? If you lean towards the INTJ that is a serious indication you need to end it now.

If you choose to continue your friendship with him then you must end the emotional affair you are having with him. You must make it clear that the conversations you have can no longer be inappropriate. You are a married woman. No more discussing whether or not you two should have had sex etc. That has to be a ground rule. If you genuinely want to help him...you'll focus more on what he's going through rather than what you want. Focus on what is best for him right now.

[nero4alcia]

It just feels “right” to be around someone that notices you, even the smallest little silly things, and they appreciate it. It's nice to be around someone that is more on same level with values, intelligence, and interests....

I must say, if he would open up and say, “I love you, I need you, please be by my side”, I would have a VERY hard time not doing so….

Nero4alicia, why on Earth do you envy me???

That's why, because he values you and you know how he feels about you, though I'm not too sure that I understood everything exactly. From what I've read since I posted that, it seems that perhaps he isn't as certain as I thought. In my situation right now, we've started talking again but she seems to get colder by the day, we exchange maybe a few lines of text a day. I'm sure now that she doesn't love me, and that she doesn't value me as a friend. What you said about wanting the old him back... that's exactly the same with me. She never used to act this distant, I want that intimacy back, but I don't think I can get it back. This is the path she's chosen to go down and it doesn't seem I can do anything about it. As for you, well I honestly can't say anything that hasn't already been said. Since our problems are rather similar, I know how you feel, and I'm sorry that anyone other than me has to go through that sort of crap. I wish you luck and that you do make the right decision, you still have a chance whereas I don't, at least not with her. I'm thinking of moving on, I know of at least two girls that would want to start relationships with me. But I just don't know right now and I guess you don't either.

[green eyes]

Ahhhh…clarity! I don’t feel crazy anymore! Jennifer808, I wish I could shrink you, put you in my pocket, and carry you around with me! LOL That WOULD be crazy.

Friendship is very feasible. I can’t leave him high and dry. I’ll just have to do whatever it takes, like thinking logically and not allowing my mind to wander into those fantasies. I have to think of him as just a person who needs a friend…and not as a sexy, strong, and brilliant man that is temporarily “out of order”. Maybe I should print out your post and keep it as reference! I do love him on some level…I’m sure of that…but any romantic feelings that I have must be squashed. Like you said, I need to focus on what’s best for him.
For years after we broke up, even though I would get butterflies and energized everytime I saw him, we were friends...or more like acquaintances, much like what Thod's quote depicts. He seemed to always know when I needed “assistance”. I was able to move on and find new love, despite the fact that we still kept in touch and cared deeply about each other.

When I first started to really learn about my personality type, about a month ago, I was scared by the things I read…like how INFJs are amazingly empathetic and find it hard to detach…and we have a need to help those who are downtrodden. I started to question why I fell in love with my husband in the first place…and now, I suddenly see that I was trying to repeat history with my INTJ. We INFJs can be so naïve if we don’t keep our thinking caps on!
You see, while I was madly in love with my husband when we got married, he was not madly in love with me. He claimed to love me, but now I look back and realize that he didn’t feel the same way that I did. I personally feel like he might not of even been capable of truly being “in love” with anyone at that time. When I found my husband, he was this beautiful, talented, and unfortunately distraught and humble creature…I guess you could say a “diamond in the rough”. He was full of potential, but I seemed to be the only one that saw it. I “captured” him and held on tight. I thought that because I could empathize so well with him, because I felt his pain so intensely, that we just had to be soulmates. I was VERY IDEALISTIC. I guess I may have also fallen in love with who he could be, not who he actually was…and I wanted to help make him “whole”. He has, in many ways, fulfilled my vision and surprised many people…but it wasn’t very easy on my part. I spent the first years of my marriage feeling very alone. A year ago, I decided that I was tired of being the only one who wanted sex and the only one that really cared about nurturing the connection between us. Plus, I felt like I had missed out on something…like those passionate newlywed days and such…. Yes, my ex did embody what I was lacking in my marriage…and our relationship never had real closure; I mean, we broke up because of our passion??? It WAS a very normal, healthy relationship; for years my parents would say things that really made me think that they wished I would end up with him. He already WAS what I had always wanted my husband to become, and when we were together, he had loved me, WANTED ME, and treated me like a freakin’ princess…but he isn’t the same anymore. His situation has changed him. It would be unhealthy to get involved with him…. We both would need to be whole individuals first.

Right now, I want my marriage to work. My husband doesn't deserve this. He's learned a lot from our separation and troubled times...he'd do anything to keep me around. A year ago he didn't act like he cared what happened, but now he does...he really does. He loves me more today than he ever has. I also do realize that no relationship is going to be perfect.

I’ve got to REALLY close the emotional door that I opened a year ago. I will make things clear with my INTJ...my friend....

Nero4alcia, please do move on. We our capable of loving in ways that are so beautiful, rich, and intense…I would advise you not to waste such a thing on someone that doesn’t want it, because while they may benefit…you might only continue to suffer.

[Aurelia]

Ahhhh…clarity! I don’t feel crazy anymore! Jennifer808, I wish I could shrink you, put you in my pocket, and carry you around with me! LOL That WOULD be crazy.

Right now, I want my marriage to work. My husband doesn't deserve this. He's learned a lot from our separation and troubled times...he'd do anything to keep me around. A year ago he didn't act like he cared what happened, but now he does...he really does. He loves me more today than he ever has. I also do realize that no relationship is going to be perfect.

I’ve got to REALLY close the emotional door that I opened a year ago. I will make things clear with my INTJ...my friend....


Shrink me in your pocket? :laugh: If you ever need someone to talk to you can always message me.

[green eyes]

Thank you

My INTJ friend seems to be ignoring my e-mails again.
He is a very talented pianist, and I know that he often plays at our local university's music building...so in one of my latest e-mails I wrote him to say that if I see his car on campus (which I pass through frequently), that I'll stop and find him.
I've been reading on other threads about how you guys prefer to have control over social situations. I'm worried that he may be annoyed with me for trying to ruin his peaceful piano time...and forcing him to see me when he's not ready. Should I not go?

[schmidt]

My INTJ friend seems to be ignoring my e-mails again.
He is a very talented pianist, and I know that he often plays at our local university's music building...so in one of my latest e-mails I wrote him to say that if I see his car on campus (which I pass through frequently), that I'll stop and find him.
I've been reading on other threads about how you guys prefer to have control over social situations. I'm worried that he may be annoyed with me for trying to ruin his peaceful piano time...and forcing him to see me when he's not ready. Should I not go?

I'd suggest you don't go, the intimidation can be quite challenging.

I would also like to say one thing (quite unusual for the INTJ) but that is, you're constantly repeating that your husband deserves your marriage, as in a logical reasoning. But how do you feel? Does it feel right? Do you love him? or "should" you love him?

I understand that these are hard and very personal questions, and I don't expect an answer on the board. But think about it. In the end, it's what you feel that should be the guide, especially when/if there's doubt.

(I ask for forgiveness for any strange uses of words, English is not my first language (it's actually my third)).

[PortInStorm]

Ya, I'd feel like you were hunting me down, not giving me a choice to see you, too desperate, and invading my personal space. Draw him in, let him come to you- give him space to want you. If you do communicate, keep it light and breezy. Not so heavy like Mennonite sausage (sorry, that just came to mind).

[green eyes]

Thanks you guys :)

You’re funny 2ndtimestudent!
Hmmm…
I’m not too good at staying light and breezy…if I did that, he might wonder who the hell is trying to pose as me. He knows I can be intense, so he knows what having a relationship with me is signing up for. Anyways, I’ve already decided that I don’t want him to “want” me.

Schmidt, I think your English is quite good!
Even though I’m an INFJ, I’ve thankfully realized that feelings aren’t what’s important here. I’ve wasted most of my life being “ruled” by my emotions. Until recently, I didn’t think that I could have control over that stuff…it took a determination to get out of a deep depression for me to realize that. “Feelings” have failed me time and time again. My feelings are what got me into a crappy marriage. No one around me thought it was a good idea for me to be with him…they saw how he didn’t treat me the way I deserved…but I allowed myself to be neglected, all for the sake of my strong feelings.

And yes, I do love my husband…I may not feel "in love" with him right now, but I love my husband AND my INTJ friend enough to do what's best...for both of them.

What's important is being a logical and responsible adult.

[sriv]

Dont drop your emotions...then you'll end up like us. I am sorry you had to fall in love with an INTJ. I never thought that anyone could actually fall in love with ONE OF US.

[green eyes]

I'm gonna let you guys in on a little secret...
I did make a deal with my husband so that I could get a little naughty with my INTJ friend. My husband was allowed to buy 2 expensive toys, a Xbox and a miniature daschund, and in exchange I'm allowed to do or buy anything I want...and what I really wanted was a little moo-moo pa-pa! ;)
Actually, he CLAIMS that he wouldn't care if a found a lover anyways, 'cause then he'd have one less thing to worry about! I don't believe him, but I AM pretty certain that he wouldn’t leave me.
I can’t bring myself to do it…I think I'm going to just buy a new laptop!

Dont drop your emotions...then you'll end up like us. I am sorry you had to fall in love with an INTJ. I never thought that anyone could actually fall in love with ONE OF US.

INTJ women and men are awesome, in my opinion.

I will admit that it USED to bug me how my INTJ friend seemed so insensitive while we were dating. I remember being really bothered by his lack of emotions; he told me that even if I died, he probably wouldn’t cry…. I was so emotional; I didn’t understand how anyone else could be so far from that…it didn’t seem human to me.
When I met my husband, one of the things I was initially attracted to was his sensitivity…one of my closest friends actually set us up for that very reason. It got annoying pretty quickly, though…he’s so whiny… I’ve done my best to try and “make a man out of him”.

I’ve learned that if I want anything productive to come out of my marriage, I have to be the one with some sense…the one who “wears the pants”. I’m not sure my husband can successfully function without me…during our separation he made some pretty stupid decisions…for one thing, he is way too influenced by peers for the sake of looking “cool” (and he's 25).
I don’t enjoy the role I’ve taken on…maybe because it goes against my true nature? I’ve often said that this marriage keeps tearing more and more away from who I am…but…I am becoming stronger and more rational because of it. I am glad that I no longer sit and cry about stupid things, that I don’t care about pleasing everyone, and that I don’t take everything so personally; but I do still dream of being a submissive little housewife with an honorable “provider and protector” type husband (it’s okay…go on and gag if you need to). My husband is trying to be that kind of man, but he still has a little bit of growing up left to do.

These days, I have a great respect for the intelligence, strength, and passion you INTJs have. I find those characteristics incredibly sexy in men…I think I’ve developed small crushes on a few of you already! :blush: Plus, I can relate to INTJs more than I can the other types…I love this forum!

[sriv]

I am glad you consider INTJ super-human. My friends would claim oppositely. Anti-human.

[green eyes]

Okay...I have another question.

I have a serious problem with keeping anything from my INTJ friend. Not being completely honest and open...it eats away at me...somehow people don't feel like REAL friends until they seem to "get" me and know everything, thoroughly...including my thought processes.
Hmmm...maybe this is partially why I don't feel like I really have any REAL friends these days (I'll save the rest of my thoughts on this subject for the actual thread about it).

I really, really, really am "itching" to e-mail my INTJ friend a link to this thread. Am I insane?

[PortInStorm]

That would be the last straw for me- do it at your own peril. Regardless if it's anonymous.

[sriv]

Sometimes the bitter truth must be revealed.

[eternaltriangle]

Wow, I really hope this works out... that and I want to meet an INFJ (except that it would be cruel to inflict myself on somebody driven by feelings).

Is there anybody alive who would date, and marry somebody - love them, even, knowing that the other person was likely incapable of loving them back? Could that be fulfilling for both people?

[Alcuin]

Wow, I really hope this works out... that and I want to meet an INFJ (except that it would be cruel to inflict myself on somebody driven by feelings).

Is there anybody alive who would date, and marry somebody - love them, even, knowing that the other person was likely incapable of loving them back? Could that be fulfilling for both people?

An emotional masochist, perhaps. Or somebody who loves another so much, that they don't care if the feelings are returned.

Hell, I wouldn't mind being married to Christian Bale even if he didn't love me madly in return.

Honestly, I dont think I'll ever be able to fall in love, so sometimes I wonder if anybody would mind marrying someone with that emotional disconnection. I dont think I've ever felt 'love'.. 'like,' sure, but not love. I'm loyal, but not romantic.

[eternaltriangle]

Acuin, I am similar - loyal but not loving. It is frustrating to me because I like the idea of having some structure in my life. As a grad student my hours are very flexible - and it is hard to prevent myself from going off on tangents. As much as I dislike saying so, avoiding human contact can sometimes drive me nuts (I once became obsessed with the idea that my house was infested with cockroaches, despite no evidence... although one time a firefly got in, and I mistook it for a cockroach).

Marriage just seems like a useful and rational contract, that would provide a ready source of recreation, specialization of labour, and social respectability. Moreover, I really like the idea of viewing children as a project... to amend all of the mistakes parents usually make, and raise the best possible child.

[Alcuin]

Exactly! I do not have a romantic view on marriage at all. I believe that most people are too idealistic about marriage, or make stupid mistakes and end up marrying for the 'wrong reasons.' Sex is not a driving factor for me.. more of a bonus. (I think I'd do very well in a relationship with an asexual.)

If I could find a partner who finds marriage a great financial engagement, sharing common responsibilities, we both grant each other freedom to grow and evolve (no smothering!) while inspiring each other to improve in our respected career paths, but at the same time being with someone who understands when to step in and convince me to get some sunlight... that would be a great life. :)

Christ, I sound so picky. But I refuse to settle because I KNOW I will be a miserable and probably verbally abusive spouse if I thought the relationship was a burden.

[green eyes]

That sounds more like roommates than anything else. It kinda destroys the beauty of the concept of marriage, in my humble INFJ opinion.

I think you have to allow yourself to “let go” to be able to experience romantic love. From what I’ve read on this forum, it might be a more thought out/difficult process for most INTJs, but it is possible.
And marriage will always be a risk, even if the relationship was established on the criteria you described. If this "ideal” (yes, I believe you’re being idealistic, too) mate of yours became bedridden, for example, would you find the relationship too much of a burden then? There is no guarantee that a relationship will continue to work the way you want it to. You could remain loyal, but that doesn’t mean you won’t resent your mate for not being able to hold up their end of the bargain. Something else needs to step in to keep a relationship going…LOVE.

I believe that the ultimate display of love is sacrifice….

[eternaltriangle]

nluvw1, an INFJ friend of mine suggested I am not waiting long enough to experience love (three dates at the maximum). Do you think it is plausible that INTJ's are not any less able to experience love, only that their need for space makes them flee before they are able to?

[sriv]

Do you mean "let go" as in abandoning rational thought? I can sacrafice a lot, but it is going to take a lot of force for me to abandon rational thought.

[Ainegue]

Firstly, "ATo view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. it's so romantic!" :lovestruck: Stuff like this doesn't only happen in the movies then
Secondly-

Though this forum I've learned many things about myself, and INTJs in general. And one thing I've come to the conclusion is that us INTJ's have mentally covered ourselves with a crystal shield, and nothing can get past without the INTJ's consent. Thus we can often remain unharmed by criticism, not pierced by emotion, and unaffected by anything that we filter out. Inside we are a vacuum - for knowledge and everything else there is to be had in the world.

It sound's to me that your ex had in his lifetime built up his shield very well, mostly with religious beliefs. From the email you talk about, it sounds like something(s) have/has happened, which shattered this mental shield to pieces. In this sense, he has in a way, snapped.
Doesn't he have something else? Or by train-wreck you really do mean total train-wreck train-wreck? I think he should be given time to recuperate - send an email or two, but just be kind and supportive, and help him rebuild his mental shield again. Stand your ground, buy yourself a new laptop, whatever... (your husband is 25 and buying an Xbox... I see what you mean. AWWW I want the laptoppppp...!).

Blah blah blah.
I really, really, really am "itching" to e-mail my INTJ friend a link to this thread. Am I insane? I just started chain mail to everyone I know that lives by me, telling them to take the personality test, because I really want to know what personality my crush is. Am I insane?

You know, I feel like I'm sitting on the fence in between INFJ and INTJ. I think I'm changing... *slaps self on forehead* "stopit stoppit stoppit!":confused: Actually, I think I'm changing back: After reading all the insight-fullness of all the INTJs in this forum, I think more (which I actually STOPPED DOING!!! for a time) about things and all that stuff I used to be interested in, and I'm proud to be an INTJ again.

[green eyes]

Do you mean "let go" as in abandoning rational thought? I can sacrafice a lot, but it is going to take a lot of force for me to abandon rational thought.

As you’ve probably seen from other threads, the complexities of love can be very hard to explain, even for those who feel certain they’ve experienced it.
I think you can still be a generally logical person and experience romantic love, but the “colder” and more rational you are, the harder it may be. I can imagine that for an INTJ, the “letting go” might be a more conscious decision than it would be for other types. For love, some emotions must be allowed a chance to come up to the surface and express themselves…and you need to free yourself to not be totally in control and well thought out IN THAT AREA. Feelings themselves aren’t rational…you’d have to come to terms with the possibility that it might not make complete sense that you instinctively care for someone and their well-being as much as you do your own, or even more…that it’s okay to go to great lengths just to get someone to smile…to be able to reveal your deepest darkest secrets…. As many of you INTJs have mentioned in other threads, love has a lot to do with VULNERABILITY and trust…being able to risk…because love is a huge risk…. With love, a lot of your time and thoughts are aimed towards pleasing the other person. A big chunk of your desires belongs to your “beloved” and their happiness.

nluvw1, an INFJ friend of mine suggested I am not waiting long enough to experience love (three dates at the maximum). Do you think it is plausible that INTJ's are not any less able to experience love, only that their need for space makes them flee before they are able to?

Sure, but I think you might do better off asking the other INTJs…maybe some of them have conquered the same hurdles in the love arena.

I will say that I think trying to date a couple of women for more than 3 dates could be, at the very least, an interesting experiment. Just be honest about your general lack of feelings before going on that forth date…some chicks, if they dig you enough, will find those next few dates a very intriguing challenge…and you could find feelings deep inside of you yearning to come out and explode!

Also, have you ever experienced the strange phenomenon known in the dating world as “chemistry”? You know, that incredible sexual “spark” that humans experience with some and not with others. I read somewhere that it’s supposed to have to do with detecting “compatible” pheromones secreted from our mate’s sweat glands…that does kinda explain why I enjoy sniffing the armpits of those I’m in love with! :p I know that from my experience, romantic chemistry doesn’t have that much to do with how smart or attractive someone is…or even how well I get along with the person. I think chemistry is a necessary component to ignite romantic love…and it can keep love burning.
I don’t think I felt chemistry with either of the men I love…at first. It took time, but not too long…maybe it was after I really got to smell them? LOL
My husband and I broke up quite a bit before we got married…and I dated a couple of guys in the breaks. I think I would’ve been better off if I had felt that “spark” with someone during those times (well I did with 1 person, but he doesn’t count…he was already in a serious relationship), then I might not of gone back to him. All and all I’ve felt romantic chemistry with a very select few….

Firstly, "ATo view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. it's so romantic!" :lovestruck: Stuff like this doesn't only happen in the movies then

LOL

And yeah, I'm gettin' a laptop....

[sriv]

I can do everything you just listed except "let myself go". I can sacrafice and risk, give my darkest secrets, even the ones I am ashamed of, be pleasing to my partner, but I cannot simply let go. It is what is keeping me sane. Right now I am extremely sane. Why should I make myself vulnerable? I will gladly dedicate my time to my beloved and their happiness. I would sacrafice my own happiness for them, but never touch the "crystal sheild" as Ainegue calls it or make me "let go".

[green eyes]

If you wouldn’t let yourself be vulnerable, then what would you really be risking? That wouldn’t be the “real deal”…you wouldn’t be allowing that person to essentially become A PART OF YOU.

What you’ve said sounds like duty/doing what you think you should do in a romantic relationship. In actuality, if you would let yourself experience romantic love, it would all come more naturally than that…you’ll INSTINCTIVELY want to do those things….

Feelings themselves aren’t rational…
Edit: Feelings themselves are the opposite of rational thought, but rational thought can allow or suppress feelings…and feelings can allow or suppress rational thought.

Also, I’d like to add…
I think it’s GREAT that a “T” is more likely to thoroughly reason how worthy a mate is before allowing love, but that doesn’t mean that if an “F” doesn’t, that they’ll always fall for the wrong people.

[sriv]

I reject instinct. I discard any type of impulses, urges, random desires, etc that I may have. I am a man of form and principles and they just ruin my self-control. Lol, you lovers sound like pain-seekers making yourselves vulnerable like that. I would not be vulnerable. I would be very uncomfortable until I have spent a few weeks or months with partner and started being more comfortable with their company and slowly reveal who I am. Maybe I have this reasoning because I have never felt love. Maybe never will. I do not exactly look forward to it. Finding love is not one of my purposes in life, but I like the idea of children and passing on my knowledge to them.

[eternaltriangle]

Also, have you ever experienced the strange phenomenon known in the dating world as “chemistry”? You know, that incredible sexual “spark” that humans experience with some and not with others.

If it has happened I don't remember it... At least, it hasn't lasted particularly long for any given person. I do utterly detest the way most women smell (when horny), actually. I generally require showering (for myself and my date) if anything erotic happens.

[Minerva]

Okay...I have another question.

I have a serious problem with keeping anything from my INTJ friend. Not being completely honest and open...it eats away at me...somehow people don't feel like REAL friends until they seem to "get" me and know everything, thoroughly...including my thought processes.
Hmmm...maybe this is partially why I don't feel like I really have any REAL friends these days (I'll save the rest of my thoughts on this subject for the actual thread about it).

I really, really, really am "itching" to e-mail my INTJ friend a link to this thread. Am I insane?

In my experience, when you are confused and NOT sure what to do, do nothing. Step back for a while, let things progress and try really hard to get a hold of your emotions.

I will let you in on a little secret here. I once fell hopelessly in love with an INTJ and things were said and done, and got so bad that we no longer speak. I was too emotional with him and I pushed him too much because I didn't realize at the time that he was an INTJ. We were both young and neither of us had any experience with relationships.

Sometimes I wish that he would contact me some day, for I still feel like he was (or is) my dual partner. Nevertheless, I don't invest too much time into that hope. Life goes on. Life also takes you places... Go with it. But look and THINK before you leap!

By the way, my mother is ISFJ and my father is INTJ and they have been married for 30 years. Their personalities are on opposite sides of the spectrum. But you know what they say... Opposites attract! :)





Minerva added to this post, 9 minutes and 29 seconds later...

Dont drop your emotions...then you'll end up like us. I am sorry you had to fall in love with an INTJ. I never thought that anyone could actually fall in love with ONE OF US.

Sorry to tell you this... but you're wrong. I once fell completely in love with an INTJ and sometimes I think that I wouldn't be happy with anything else.

It seems clear to me that infatuation takes you guys completely by surprise. Don't you know that many of the heroes in the romance novels girls grow up reading have a little (sometimes a lot) of INTJ in them. For example, I remember reading a novel about a prince who was quite the war strategist. He seemed INTJ to me. Those high ideals that you all have is what hopelessly romantics like me really value. The problem is that emotion comes so slowly to you guys. But a good thing is worth waiting for. The thing is... don't wait till its too late. But when is too late? Therein lies the problem!

[sriv]

Sorry to tell you this... but you're wrong. I once fell completely in love with an INTJ and sometimes I think that I wouldn't be happy with anything else.

It seems clear to me that infatuation takes you guys completely by surprise. Don't you know that many of the heroes in the romance novels girls grow up reading have a little (sometimes a lot) of INTJ in them. For example, I remember reading a novel about a prince who was quite the war strategist. He seemed INTJ to me. Those high ideals that you all have is what hopelessly romantics like me really value. The problem is that emotion comes so slowly to you guys. But a good thing is worth waiting for. The thing is... don't wait till its too late. But when is too late? Therein lies the problem!

Minerva.

Lol, I was joking.

[Minerva]

Lol, I was joking.

Oh...

[nickvdk]

I didnt have time to read all the replies because I am at work (hehe) but Ill spit out some points here:

*INFJ/INTJs tend to crazily fall for ESFPs because they bring the craziness out of us. They are good for short-mid term relationships because they draw you into their exciting world, but eventually the 'I' vs 'E' and the 'J' vs 'P' causes a lot of disagreements and heartache.

*Im currently in love with 2 women. One is an ESFP that is a total social butterfly and excites me immensely. She is my opposite in a good way. The other is an INFJ girl who doesn't take me out of my comfort zone and we share each other's conservative mindset. I am engaged to the INFJ girl because I see her as more stable. I thought if I pursued a longterm relationship with the ESFP girl, there will be moments of extremely happy times as well as depressing moments as our personalities compliments and clash at various times.

*Follow your heart. If you have dreams about him, it means in your gut feeling is telling you he is 'the one'.

*You should not feel insulted if he wants to have sex with you. It might be a way of him loving you as men speak with actions rather than words.

*As a typical INTJ would say: "Cut your losses now and run". I know it is hard but in the end this is your life and being with someone you dont truly love will only worsen other aspects of your life e.g. work, family.

*If you do stay with your current husband ask yourself this: "Is it fair for me to lie to myself, my husband and my family about my true feelings?"

*Even if you do work these problems out, do you see yourself having to 'fix' the relationship up every now and again for the rest of your life? If so, I believe IMHO that it is not worth the emotional heartache.

[PortInStorm]

Nick, sounds like you are also having second thoughts re: the ESFP, yes?

[kawai]

sounds like nobody would understand what he's going through. I bet it's even worse than he leads everyone to believe. But who in this world doesn't have drama? is he really going through anything worse than other people have gone through? It's not like he spent half a year in solitary confinement with no contact with others, showered once every five days, and only knew the time of day because he was served grits and therefore it must have been morning? Given not even a Bible to read? Only to have his prayers go no further than the confines of brick and mortar? Could something such as this cause him to give up his attempt of a holy life? Was he accused of things that never happened? If you say that he went through anything like that, then I will believe and understand if and why he may have snapped. Would anyone be the same person after such a thing?

[green eyes]

Don't you know that many of the heroes in the romance novels girls grow up reading have a little (sometimes a lot) of INTJ in them. For example, I remember reading a novel about a prince who was quite the war strategist. He seemed INTJ to me. Those high ideals that you all have is what hopelessly romantics like me really value.


As a very girly hopeless romantic myself, I totally agree with you. I hope you marry the INTJ “prince” of your dreams!

I THINK my father is an ISFJ and my mother is an INTJ, and they have been happily married for over 30 years….

I didnt have time to read all the replies because I am at work (hehe) but Ill spit out some points here:

*INFJ/INTJs tend to crazily fall for ESFPs because they bring the craziness out of us. They are good for short-mid term relationships because they draw you into their exciting world, but eventually the 'I' vs 'E' and the 'J' vs 'P' causes a lot of disagreements and heartache.

*Im currently in love with 2 women. One is an ESFP that is a total social butterfly and excites me immensely. She is my opposite in a good way. The other is an INFJ girl who doesn't take me out of my comfort zone and we share each other's conservative mindset. I am engaged to the INFJ girl because I see her as more stable. I thought if I pursued a longterm relationship with the ESFP girl, there will be moments of extremely happy times as well as depressing moments as our personalities compliments and clash at various times.

*Follow your heart. If you have dreams about him, it means in your gut feeling is telling you he is 'the one'.

*You should not feel insulted if he wants to have sex with you. It might be a way of him loving you as men speak with actions rather than words.

*As a typical INTJ would say: "Cut your losses now and run". I know it is hard but in the end this is your life and being with someone you dont truly love will only worsen other aspects of your life e.g. work, family.

*If you do stay with your current husband ask yourself this: "Is it fair for me to lie to myself, my husband and my family about my true feelings?"

*Even if you do work these problems out, do you see yourself having to 'fix' the relationship up every now and again for the rest of your life? If so, I believe IMHO that it is not worth the emotional heartache.

Thanks for your post…I banged my head against the wall a few times after I read it for the first time.

I am AWFUL at keeping things hidden from the people I care about…partially because I wear my emotions on my sleeve. My husband and even my mother already call my INTJ friend my “boyfriend” from time to time. My mom can read right through me, and my husband’s uneasiness about the situation has kept him on his toes...and brought about the most positive change!

I’m glad that you started a new thread to get advice with this…I think you definitely need to get things straightened out before “tying the knot”.

In my experience, it is not easy living with an ExxP type....
Sure, the ESFP may bring you out of your comfort zone NOW, but at some point all relationships get to a "comfy stage" where your love is little more “chill” and you just want to be yourself...and at that point you could end up consistently frustrated with the differing preferences.
I personally think INFJs are a good match for INTJs...BUT…the relationship doesn’t sound too “hot”. If it was, I think you would’ve handled your feelings for the ESFP by now. A marriage provides plenty of time to get to that “comfy stage”…but are you already there with the INFJ? Ideally (ha!), the stage you should be going through with the INFJ right now should be crazy hot with sparks and excitement... That's how I felt when I got married...he just didn't feel that way....

sounds like nobody would understand what he's going through. I bet it's even worse than he leads everyone to believe. But who in this world doesn't have drama? is he really going through anything worse than other people have gone through? It's not like he spent half a year in solitary confinement with no contact with others, showered once every five days, and only knew the time of day because he was served grits and therefore it must have been morning? Given not even a Bible to read? Only to have his prayers go no further than the confines of brick and mortar? Could something such as this cause him to give up his attempt of a holy life? Was he accused of things that never happened? If you say that he went through anything like that, then I will believe and understand if and why he may have snapped. Would anyone be the same person after such a thing?

IT IS THAT BAD….

His situation is probably a lot worse than most of us could even imagine...


I think the reality of his situation has slowly decayed my own love for God. I normally find listening to Christian music very uplifting...but lately, I find that it only fills me with a deep sadness. I want to let go and reach out to God and praise him...but something inside me halts it. I just can’t seem to do it…and this frightens and bewilders me….

I will tell his heartbreaking story….

[green eyes]

The story is so complicated that I’m refraining from going into a lot of details….

Basically, the general public has been led to believe that my INTJ friend is a pedophile, but not just any ordinary pedophile, the kind that drinks cat blood and molests/rapes children and dogs as a part of satanic rituals…pentagrams and all!

He was very involved in his church; he and other core members (male and female) are considered accountable for things that never even happened.
There are three “victims”…two of them have recanted their stories about the satanic ritual abuse. The other victim, a very young girl, “remembers” these crimes happening when she was a BABY/TODDLER.... :huh:

There ARE twisted individuals involved in this…like the former church’s “prophetess” leader, who got the ball rolling with her “visions” of the abuse…and the mother of the young girl, who just so happened to be divorcing the child’s father, the former church’s youth pastor, when she “learned” of the crimes.
Before contacting the authorities about the "abuse", these two women WAITED and moved out of the state…because of “fear for their lives”. :suspicious:
Yeah, sure.

There is NO EVIDENCE to support the stories of abuse, but a jury has already managed to convict the father of the young girl.

My INTJ friend and I had just broken up and were friends during the time of the alleged crimes.
His love for God was passionate, and not at all in a way that I ever considered weird…he didn’t have a distorted view of God, Jesus, or the Bible…he didn’t even go around “forcing” his beliefs on people…he just wanted to have a close relationship with God! I respected his strong faith and commitment. He seemed focused on doing what was right in God’s eyes.
He was giving glory to God all over the place…. He would always seem to “pop up” when I needed a reminder of God’s presence in my life. I remember one of those times he showed up at my house…and he had a new car. He told me that someone gave it to him…he said that God took care of his every need….
He seemed to always be involved in a “billion” different things…like serving our community as a sheriff's deputy and firefighter (paid and volunteer), playing the piano for his church services, helping with his church’s youth ministry, attending college....
He was such an honorable and joyous person!

As much as I want him to be that passionate Christian again, I really can understand him not wanting to…or even being humanly capable of doing so, especially right now….

It’s been 3 years since his arrest…he spent time locked away, MONTHS IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT…and today he is still walking around with a freakin’ GPS ankle bracelet, awaiting a possible trial.
Outwardly, he lives on.
I think I’d be screaming inside.

My main concern, as a friend, is how can I help prevent him from becoming (or reverse his current state of being) quietly consumed with anger/hatred, because wouldn’t that be self-destructing?
I wonder if spiting God right now could possibly be like shooting himself in the foot, and continuing to serve Him, even if his heart’s not in it, would be the best option. But it wouldn’t be love if his heart/emotions aren’t in it. What would it be, then?
Maybe it would be like what I was told to do in marriage counseling…to ACT like I respected my husband (because that is what God calls me to do), and then the actual feelings would eventually follow.
Whatever...even the THOUGHT of doing that kinda sickens me.

Before all of this BS started, some people suspected this small church congregation to be a tad bit “cultish”. It turns out that the former church’s leader is a bit of a controlling “nutjob”, but my INTJ friend is and always has been an independent mind…striving for excellence in all that he does….
I can understand wanting to be in a church with people that seemed to also be diligently after God’s own heart. There are so many “luke warm” and even “fake” Christians out there that pick and choose what they believe based on what best suits their lifestyle/what they WANT…hell, right now I think I am one of them.

I don’t understand why God has allowed this.
Most of the people that I respect as Christians…they contradict themselves. They preach that God WILL make everything wonderful and easy if we claim our piece of the “Jesus died on the cross for our sins and burdens pie”, and believe…but when something really crappy happens to a true, FAITHFUL follower and God doesn’t deliver them, then oh, well…it must be a part of some unknown greater purpose that God wants for he/she to have shitty circumstances.
How can my INTJ friend be of any earthly use to God if he is viewed by fellow humans as a possible satan-worshipping pedophile?
I can’t help but wonder…does God just enjoy torturing the ones that love him the most?
Faith really is “blind”…. God’s reasoning is WAY out of human grasp….
By His grace, and nothing else…we are saved….

His case is so bizarre that it has hit national news media levels, and unfortunately for him, public opinion ultimately does and always will matter. He is full of tons of potential in so many areas, but now he can only go so far and do so much in this world.

I think his character INTJ traits have something to do with all of this.
You guys are so naturally mysterious and intimidating, especially with the combination of your brilliance, somewhat private nature, and those piercing eyes…. Although, ever since I’ve known him, he’s had pretty good social skills (much better than mine); I suppose he might’ve picked them up early on to help and balance out the misconceptions….
I saw the consequences of being an INTJ first hand when I was dating him…at our private high school, where the majority of our peers were not-so-innocent spoiled brats. Those that didn’t really know him were always trying to peg him as something terrible, and he was a far better person than all of them!

*sigh*

[Motor Jax]

it can be possible

i'm the INFJ idealist, and my girl is the ESTP realist

and man, she can really let me have it sometimes

but we fit together and get along better than either one of us had hoped

it is possible though to love someone that seems to not return the favor

my girl can be quite "soulless" as she puts it

but my total devotion is to her anyways

[Minerva]

I reject instinct. I discard any type of impulses, urges, random desires, etc that I may have. I am a man of form and principles and they just ruin my self-control. Lol, you lovers sound like pain-seekers making yourselves vulnerable like that. I would not be vulnerable. I would be very uncomfortable until I have spent a few weeks or months with partner and started being more comfortable with their company and slowly reveal who I am. Maybe I have this reasoning because I have never felt love. Maybe never will. I do not exactly look forward to it. Finding love is not one of my purposes in life, but I like the idea of children and passing on my knowledge to them.

Don't you know that pleasure is pain gift wrapped? ;)

[sriv]

I am not one for simple pleasures. Nor do I accept pleasure so readily.

[green eyes]

It is so sad but true how INFJs tend to define themselves through their relationships.
I feel like in the past year I’ve started to find myself/rediscover who I used to be before I met my husband.
When I got married, my identity solely became “devoted wife and mother”…and it has been hard for me to let go of my ideals and remember all of my worth. I have put a lot into improving my husband/helping him realize all that he can be (yes, nagging actually works for some people), but I’ve allowed myself to deteriorate. My husband has never expected much out of me, and I let myself become exactly that…not much. Nor has he ever appreciated me for all that I am and all of my potential. He still doesn’t even have a clue who I am, and I don’t feel like he cares to find out. We don’t talk…outside of complaining or deciding how to raise our daughter.
Right now, he is just happy as long as I don’t leave him; it’s tragic…it’s almost as if he has come to depend on me, and I don’t think that he thinks he deserves more than I am currently giving him…but he does.

[Minerva]

It is so sad but true how INFJs tend to define themselves through their relationships.
I feel like in the past year I’ve started to find myself/rediscover who I used to be before I met my husband.
When I got married, my identity solely became “devoted wife and mother”…and it has been hard for me to let go of my ideals and remember all of my worth. I have put a lot into improving my husband/helping him realize all that he can be (yes, nagging actually works for some people), but I’ve allowed myself to deteriorate. My husband has never expected much out of me, and I let myself become exactly that…not much. Nor has he ever appreciated me for all that I am and all of my potential. He still doesn’t even have a clue who I am, and I don’t feel like he cares to find out. We don’t talk…outside of complaining or deciding how to raise our daughter.
Right now, he is just happy as long as I don’t leave him; it’s tragic…it’s almost as if he has come to depend on me, and I don’t think that he thinks he deserves more than I am currently giving him…but he does.

This sounds very unfair to both of you.

[sriv]

A human being is not meant to function as attachment to another. You may think this is my INTJ bias, but it is proven through the theory of evolution. They are social creatures, but not dependents.

[Kotetsu]

Hence we can conclude that INFJs aren't human after all.

[sriv]

Only the ones that let themselves get carried away.

[green eyes]

It’s not healthy to be dependent on someone else, especially for your own happiness.

I’ve had a lot of trouble separating my identity from my relationship…I’m still working on it, actually. I was so happy when my husband was gone, but I gave in when he wanted me back. During our separation I had a renewed zest for life and all of it’s possibilities. I was able to look in the mirror and say, “Hey, you’re pretty…you’re sexy…you’re an awesome person!” I still KINDA feel that way, but it is a struggle. It would be easier if I was able to BELIEVE/sense that my husband actually thought that stuff, too.
We had known each other for 3 years when I became pregnant…if I hadn’t of gotten knocked up, I highly doubt that my husband would’ve EVER actually gotten to the point where he was so in love that he would’ve gone out and bought a ring, gotten down on one knee, and proposed to me. He is trying really hard to meet my needs, but you just can’t fake that true appreciation, that awe, for someone…it has never been there. I don't think either one of us truly respects the other, and we just don't have that much in common.
But he needed me to “whip him into shape”. If we hadn’t of gotten married, it is highly likely that he would’ve ended up dead or in jail (he and his family even admit that this is true)…. Maybe I’ve done all I can do for him, and now it’s time to do something for myself…but I’m actually scared of what could happen to him if I let him go, especially if it crushes his sensitive feelings. He still is the father of my child, and for my daughter's sake, he needs to stay on the path he’s on today….
We were so young when we got married. We’ve pretty much grown up together, and I think I’ve taken on a mothering role…but we are both trying to work on changing that. He wants to prove himself to me so badly; he has become more and more responsible and sometimes even a bit domineering…but I still don’t trust him. He is a compulsive liar and an ENFP, after all. :p

[Kotetsu]

I don't think you can make yourself remain with someone who, even when they are giving every ounce of effort they possibly can, you don't trust or believe to be in love with you. That will send you into that dark pit the INFJ is said to harbour inside themself eventually. Then again, I cannot appreciate what it is to be attached to someone such that it is (almost) how you define yourself as a person.

INFJs are... complicated.

[sriv]

Its like the Story of an Hour by Chopin. With so little explaination, your story makes the woman seem like an INFJ. I have had experience with the compulsive lying of the ENFP. Try to get him to promise honesty by telling him that you do not trust him. They do care that others think well of them.

[green eyes]

I posted this in another thread...

I think the “clamming up” is avoidance/running away when we are emotionally overwhelmed.

INFJs are also perfectionists that have a need for control. Because we define ourselves through our deep relationships (DrEast brought this to my attention in a different thread), we have a need to control them to avoid failure. We study our loved ones intensely and often become the “perfect friend”, the “perfect mate”, or the “perfect child”. We usually don’t give up on our relationships very easily; we’ll usually bend over backwards to make sure that the other party is pleased with us (as long as they don’t try to compromise our “vision” or our values). When all of our efforts don’t make things “right”, when our sensitive feelings get hurt…we sometimes clam up. Also, we are so naturally empathetic that it can be a lot to take on other people’s emotions as well as our own, and we just need a break. We invest so much of ourselves/we are so devoted/we become so connected to people in relationships, that when this happens…our hearts, our “control centers”, can feel like they are on the brink of “exploding”. And…part of that perfectionism can be an all or nothing attitude, so when we are in an emotional state where we feel like we can’t “sufficiently” support someone else emotionally, we will sometimes avoid them completely. The clamming up/running away is basically a defense mechanism.

I’ve done this, and a couple of times it was pretty drastic. I ran away from home once (well, I was 18…but whatever), and when I was pregnant I “cut off” most of my friends and became a total hermit. My closest friend (an ENTP) sought counseling after I cut her off…many of my old friends still have not gotten over this abrupt “slamming of the door”. I thought it was because of a chemical imbalance/antepartum depression, but it really could’ve been attributed to several different things. Plenty of people tried and tried to get through to me, but the only person that I wanted any attention from was my new husband…and he was more concerned with partying with his friends than even say, I dunno, having sex with his wife. At that time, I focused a lot of my energy on how I was a “failure”.

I think I’ve gotten better at not doing this; because I am more rational, more assertive, less sensitive, and have THANKFULLY learned to control my emotions to some degree…and I’ve put up so many walls that I don’t let many people get close enough to even affect me emotionally.
Although, when my mom says the “wrong” thing to me, I still sometimes shut her out for a few days.


Sriv, his promises mean nothing...and he is very aware that I don't trust him.

Thank you all for your advice

[Tuesday]

HI Green Eyes and fellow INFJ,

You sound very much like me. I haven't had the chance to read all of the threads here so please forgive me if I seem not to know all the details.

You are involved with an INTJ romantically, is that right? He's not sure he loves you and you don't trust him? I hope I have that right.

As an INFJ, that has got to be difficult. I feel for you for the hurt and frustration you must feel.

I will try to keep up on your posts and see if I can offer anything:)

[azelismia]

I posted this in another thread...



Sriv, his promises mean nothing...and he is very aware that I don't trust him.

Thank you all for your advice

Green eyes, Any time you don't trust someone it's a very very bad sign. you realise that right? i can't think of a time where I had a lack of trust in someone and it worked out ok.

Edited to mention I have no idea of the whole gist of this thread, only offering advice on the comment made without context.

[sriv]

This is what I find disappointing about the ENFP. They are very charismatic, friendly, and caring, but they are not serious about the important things. Sometimes it is hard for them to view from other perspectives, although we all have problems with this. It prevents them from pursuing tight relationships. They are the proverbial adventurer and IMO they value freedom over all other types. The only way to work with him is to compromise.

[green eyes]

You are involved with an INTJ romantically, is that right? He's not sure he loves you and you don't trust him? I hope I have that right.


My situation is actually A LOT more complicated than that. I'm married to an ENFP, but I am emotionally attached/friends/whatever with an INTJ (an ex).

Green eyes, Any time you don't trust someone it's a very very bad sign. you realise that right? i can't think of a time where I had a lack of trust in someone and it worked out ok.


I keep wanting to believe that my God is a God of miracles....
*sigh*

[Tuesday]

My situation is actually A LOT more complicated than that. I'm married to an ENFP, but I am emotionally attached/friends/whatever with an INTJ (an ex).



I keep wanting to believe that my God is a God of miracles....
*sigh*

Well I am in sort of the same situation, sort of. I have an INTJ friend that I love dearly as a friend but I am married. I think he may possibly have feelings for me but he confuses me so I'm not sure.

I don't want to lose him as a friend. Boy, sticky situations we INFJ's get ourselves into, huh?

Is your marriage in trouble? Is the possibility of a divorce looming?

I can't help you with the religious aspect of it. My beliefs are a little skewed from previous bad religious experiences but if you believe God will work it out I hope it happens for you!

[Minerva]

I am not one for simple pleasures. Nor do I accept pleasure so readily.

Just wait until you find your match in female form! :p

[sriv]

Just wait until you find your match in female form! :p

My female match will not be a simple pleasure, but a complex one. I will not be seduced like a drooling child. She will have to win my respect and I will have to win hers for me to accept the pleasure.

[Phrixos]

You probably get one chance at life. So I would come to my own conclusion and not let a forum make a life decision for you. We can give you advice and there are some really smart people on this forum that give great support to people with problems like your own.

But this is something you have to do. What do you want. If you don't try this will you regret it forever? Is your current marriage enough to stop you from doing what you really want?

You know the situation better than any of us. Do the right thing by you.

[Minerva]

My female match will not be a simple pleasure, but a complex one. I will not be seduced like a drooling child. She will have to win my respect and I will have to win hers for me to accept the pleasure.

I was teasing you. Don't take me too literally. I did not think that you would be easily seduced.

Hmmm... interesting. What are your criteria for beginning to consider a woman in such a context?

[sriv]

I was teasing you. Don't take me too literally. I did not think that you would be easily seduced.

Hmmm... interesting. What are your criteria for beginning to consider a woman in such a context?

Posted in love and dating thread (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). If you thought I was getting defensive, I was not. I was simply correcting the errors.

[lei]

Hi green eyes, I always think a balanced INTJ and INFJ would be a good fit for each other. Your intj interest is probably at a moment of full of self-doubts, I would say the most thing is to get him back on track, and find a purpose for his life. As you mentioned in one of the previous posts that you regard sex as a spiritual experience, I think it might not be a bad idea to suggest you to consult the Chinese oracle -- the I Ching (or the book of changes) for advice. You can do some google search on the I Ching, and check out this site To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. , the lady running that site might be able to help you, I've had numerous readings with her before. best luck!

[green eyes]

You probably get one chance at life. So I would come to my own conclusion and not let a forum make a life decision for you. We can give you advice and there are some really smart people on this forum that give great support to people with problems like your own.


I don't let ANYONE make life decisions for me. I am looking for what makes the most sense, and maybe this forum can help me figure that out...but even more than that, I am looking to learn and help others learn.

If you don't try this will you regret it forever?

Probably, but either way I could end up with regret.

Is your current marriage enough to stop you from doing what you really want?


As a “F” personality, what my “heart” NATURALLY wants?

My marriage AND other factors are “stopping” me from doing that.

Hmmmm….
Love/romance is such big part of my identity…that’s what makes me extremely happy.
Maybe, just maybe, it really is a bad idea for me to try and change that…. :undecided:

Hi green eyes, I always think a balanced INTJ and INFJ would be a good fit for each other. Your intj interest is probably at a moment of full of self-doubts, I would say the most thing is to get him back on track, and find a purpose for his life. As you mentioned in one of the previous posts that you regard sex as a spiritual experience, I think it might not be a bad idea to suggest you to consult the Chinese oracle -- the I Ching (or the book of changes) for advice. You can do some google search on the I Ching, and check out this site To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. , the lady running that site might be able to help you, I've had numerous readings with her before. best luck!

Thanks. :)

I googled “I Ching”, and I looked at the website you provided…but I don’t feel comfortable trying that.

[josephine]

Greeneyes- I just found this thread and am wondering how everything turned out for you. I was kind of hoping you'd end up with the INTJ - so how did it go?

[green eyes]

You and me both.

I am getting a divorce. I now live with my parents, and I don't miss my husband at all.

Since separating from my husband, I have been feeling quite lost, but the infamous TheLastMohican has been the light of reason to help me start seeing a path in the midst of the fog.

Soon after I stopped posting on this thread, I finally met with my INTJ friend again. I got to know a little bit more about who he has become since being arrested. He was much more open with me than he has been, and it was nice. At that time I was still married and was planning on staying that way, at the very least for financial reasons.

Then I got the courage to put myself first.

My INTJ friend's communication eventually went back to the usual bare minimum after meeting up. I've told him that I don't expect consistent replies from him. I know he's busy, and I don't expect to be his best friend.

A few weeks after separating, I made it clear to my INTJ friend that he can have all of me if he wants me..."just in case". I let him know that I was still very okay with just being his friend, too. He never said anything about the matter.

After telling me that he feels bad for being so busy that he forgets to check his e-mail (for a month at a time? this is an excuse I've heard a few times before...and I KNOW he still finds time for other activities of a social nature), I told him that the quality of his excuses leads me to believe that he is either a liar, extremely forgetful, or maybe even a little of both. I also told him that he may not hear from me for awhile. He replied with an attempt to arrange a meeting...this past week. He also said that he's not lying to me. I replied with, "Then I guess that makes me forgettable." I also brought up the possibility that he might be doing what I know I do- I shove things (and people) that I don't want to deal with for whatever reason out of my head...I kinda just put them on the "back burner", and sometimes they become "forgotten" for awhile.... All he has said in reply is, "Don't be like that."
The week is over and I haven't seen or heard from him again.

He told me that he cares about me. He has said that he wants to see me...but it never happens.

I will always be there for him if he really needs me, I obviously love him, but I feel I am exerting too much of myself by being so THERE...by being open and loving and trying to understand some of his perspective with what he is going through...just to be someone "forgotten". This has to stop.

Does anyone have any opinions on the situation, as it is to date?





green eyes added to this post, 640 minutes and 35 seconds later...

Could the forgetfulness be a result of stress?

I find it an interesting cycle, telling me that he wants to spend time with me and then "forgetting" about me.

I have a question for you INTJs-
Have you ever forgotten about someone that you genuinely cared about? What were the circumstances?

[josephine]

I've never forgotten someone repeatedly - unless I wanted to cut them out of my life without having the big "conversation". I don't see how someone can just "forget" to call, especially if they still find time for other social activities.

If I were you, I'd cut off contact with him at this point. It will probably hurt, but that pain will only last a few months at the most. If you stay in contact, it sounds like you're in for a hard time.

Here's how I see this. He's getting support/encouragement from you, but can't even give you the courtesy of a phone call. This, to me, indicates that keeping you in his life isn't that important to him. All relationships can become unbalanced at times, with one person giving more than the other (especially if one person is going through a difficult phase). But it seems that this is just too extreme. Don't contact him anymore - see if he contacts you (but don't expect it). If he does, you can make your terms for the friendship/relationship clear (whichever one you want). Right now, it seems that you're telling him: "I'm romantically available if you want me, but if not, I'm still always going to be around, allowing you to walk all over me." I understand that you're making many allowances for him because of his situation, but I think it's time you stood up for what you need. There's no point in being a martyr - especially if you can't really help him (due to the fact that he's avoiding you).

Oh, and forgetfulness can be a sign of stress - but not to the point of repeatedly neglecting the same person.

I find it an interesting cycle, telling me that he wants to spend time with me and then "forgetting" about me.

Can it be possible that he feels pressured when you contact him, and says that he'd like to spend time together just because he doesn't know any way to get out of the awkward situation? (I'm assuming it's always you initiating contact.) A person who really wanted to spend time with you would be unlikely to do this.

[green eyes]

Thank you. I feel I should add-

I typically get e-mails from him anywhere inbetween once a week to once a month. Sometimes even sooner.

I've thought he was just trying to cut me off before. I tried acknowledging it and simply accepting it, but he made sure to prove otherwise.

He has even, since then, said things like, "Don't take it that I'm ignoring you."

He has talked of meeting-up again independently, without me being the one to actually ask or bring it up again (but it was brought up in the past and agreed upon that we were going to see each other again). He even called me to see me once, but I declined because of other obligations.
I have rarely brought the subject up (I think) since meeting with him last.

He did warn me that I may not hear from him but every now and then due to some of the things happening in his life, but his next e-mail after that was the e-mail about feeling bad for being forgetful. ???

I plan on soon "forgetting" about him until I hear from him again.





green eyes added to this post, 5 minutes and 27 seconds later...

I haven't VOLUNTEERED many opportunities for us to actually meet. We both are busy, and that is understandable....

I just have had trouble swallowing that I am so "forgettable".

[Eric86]

It doesn't sound like this guy would be any good for you. If I was in your place, I'd get him out of my life for sure, and try to find other people nearby that I could spend time with somewhat regularly, and get on with my life. It seems like this is definitely affecting you negatively. Letting this situation continue will only end up with you tearing yourself apart from the inside. I'm sad that things haven't worked out, but you need to look out for yourself. I know how you're feeling, though for me, it was actually a lot more one-sided when I was in situations similar to yours.

[green eyes]

Right now, it seems that you're telling him: "I'm romantically available if you want me, but if not, I'm still always going to be around, allowing you to walk all over me."
That sounds about right.

Before even starting this thread, I remember telling him once, "You may not want me to care, but you can't stop me."

*sigh*

Well folks, I've been withholding information.

I'm going to share 2 more details of this complicated relationship-

He has known about the depth of my suppressed feelings for awhile now. He started to e-mail me again more regularly before we met up last.

Also, we were going to have sex.

I have told him several times that we don't have to go that far (because I don't want him to feel pressured or "stuck"), but I wonder if he has taken that as doubt.
I know that he was worried about me regretting it.

After discovering how "forgettable" I am, I decided against it. He knows of this.

I've told him that he can tell me anything. I've told him that he can be brutally honest with me. I've told him that I don't care if the reason for his "silence" is merely because he just doesn't feel like typing. I just don't want to be lied to.
He admits to only responding after I've sent a few e-mails, because he doesn't have a lot to say...but still he says he's not lying?

Help me decode this, please.

[MacGuffin]

This thread is insane.

green eyes: I think you need to be by yourself for a while. Forget about any lovers, INTJ or otherwise.

[Uberfuhrer]

We are a deeply lovable bunch, you don't have to worry! :evil:

[josephine]

I think that there might not be anything to decode. He seems pretty numb at the moment, and since you can't help him, the best thing for your own well-being would be to leave him alone. He sounds too unstable to have a relationship at the moment. I know it may seem like abandoning a friend if you just leave him alone, but he has made it clear that he doesn't have much to say to you.

If he asks you for some specific help, then you can contact him. But really, if you want a relationship with him, you should at least wait until he's over this difficult time and is more sure of what he wants. Otherwise, you risk being used as a crutch and discarded when he no longer needs to rely on you. Frankly, at this moment, it sounds like he's stringing you along (whether purposely or not). I agree with the above posters that you should just be alone for a bit.

[green eyes]

He seems pretty numb at the moment
Now this makes sense to me.

He has adopted an "I just wanna live" and "I don't worry so much about it/I don't care" attitude. The last time I saw him, though, he said that this is the case except for with the people he cares about, and he gestured to include me.

I liked this "just live" attitude. The conscious idea of "just live" helped push me to finally leave my husband. I felt like with him, I was not REALLY living. I wanted change. What I was doing, or the environment I was putting myself in...it wasn't working for me.

But "just living" isn't as simple as it sounds. I have a natural tendency to make things complicated, and I don't want to make my INTJ friend's life anymore complicated than it already is.

We both have been confused and searching to some degree.

I was "content" in my marriage...I had learned how to do this so it was possible to just get through each day without feeling completely insane, miserable, or like a failure. I was able to find pleasure in the little things, and I was able to settle for things that baffled the people around me. I think it is sometimes necessary to do this for survival, but I don't think it is a good way to be for the long-term. My passion was drying up. I had learned that if I just didn't care, then I wouldn't feel any pain.

There is a battle going on inside of me- do I continue to change because who I am has lead me astray, or do I find a place where my "true self" can flourish and be appreciated? Do I only except "reality" or do I hold on to my urges to have great hopes and expectations? My husband still wants me, and for the first few weeks without him, I had to remind myself of the REALITY that was our relationship. But hope seems necessary to get anywhere, and expectations seem necessary to even be vulnerable and therefore really "in love".

I touched on these things and more in an e-mail that I sent to my INTJ friend at my lowest point in the separation...when dealing with the fact that 12 hours after telling my mom that I was going to separate from my husband, before I had even broken the news to my husband, I was informed that I had to move out of my house (owned by my parents) so it could be sold...a house that was PROMISED to me and that I lived in during the prior separation. As a mother/student/housewife, that house was my world, maybe too much so.... And I was starting to get into a lot of arguments with my parents. I was not looking forward to moving back home (I can't afford rent). For a short while, they were treating me like a rebellious and disrespectful child, because "I know better"...but it's not that I knew better, it's just that I saw the flaws in the things that they were so adament about shoving down my throat. Things are MUCH better now. I've actually accomplished opening up their minds to some degree.

Here are some bits and pieces of that e-mail:

I have such a need to make sense of things, to establish expectations and systems and to have purpose...but everything in life seems so unsure and unpredictable...nothing seems to really make PERFECT sense....

Is it wrong to completely change yourself...is it possible to be really happy if you never feel like who you are, naturally, is appreciated, gets you where you "need" to go in an "acceptable" time, or is "good enough" for the people around you? Is having a personal identity such an important thing? Is it so wrong to be different?

I don't expect answers to these questions. I'm just feeling a tiny bit overwhelmed by the lack of emotional support and especially control right now...I feel like my whole world is being ripped out from underneath me...and that my competence is being underminded.... I know this is nothing like what you have and are still going through, though. I guess I should be happy that I have more to build up from. I guess I deserve this in a way, anyways.

I just wish someone would listen AND treat me like I'm not a complete idiot...I know I am in SOME ways. But I know I am in other ways a lot more than anyone seems to really recognize or understand. Am I that much of a freakin' enigma?

My mom is my best friend, and yet she refuses to really hear me even though I really think she can understand...more than most people do. I'm not supposed to think or feel it seems...just do what the "spirit" leads me to do.... She only seems to appreciate "God talk"...and I just am not operating on that frequency.

I'm fine, really. I'm pushing through. Soon I will be over this "mourning" for all of my dreams...I am half-way there already. I do need to let go, really let go, to really move on. I just didn't think I'd have to lose what seems like everything, all at the same time...and I didn't think I'd feel so controlled by others...but I guess I never really had as much control as I thought I did in the first place....

I am grateful, I just am not jumping up and down for joy. I am expected to be.

The bigger the change, the better the progress? It's time for an even bigger dose of the crap that is reality?

What if there is no rainbow after the storm has passed? What then?

*sigh*
It's nice to vent a little. Thanks if you read all of this.

10 MINUTES LATER I got an e-mail saying:
"As soon as my workload decreases, we should go grab coffee. I know how you feel. Really, I do"

[ricearoni]

10 MINUTES LATER I got an e-mail saying:
"As soon as my workload decreases, we should go grab coffee. I know how you feel. Really, I do"

It's amazing how sometimes they respond instantly and then other times they'll take an eternity to get back to you.

Anyway, I've been an avid follower of your thread because I'm rooting for you and your INTJ to get together (and hope that maybe one day it'll happen for me too ;))

But I do agree with the previous posters that pursuing a relationship with him should probably be put on the back burner for awhile. It seems that you've been through a lot recently and need things to settle as you adapt to your new freedom. I also think that right now, this INTJ of yours really needs a regular old friend and not a friend who seems to be around only because she wants a romantic relationship from him. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, just that it might come across that way to him.

It sounds like his life has been really heavy lately and perhaps what he needs isn't so much someone to lean on, but someone to show him that life can be light and enjoyable again. I know that for me, whenever a friend is distressed, my first instinct is to become their crutch. I will absorb all their stress and help them think clearly by allowing them to vent. But after some time, wallowing in their misery makes things worse, especially when they come back to me and are reminded that they still haven't improved their situation. Somehow I become a reminder of their problems so they avoid me.

And other times they only learn to appreciate me for being a crutch. Once they're able to take care of themselves they discard me and pursue things that are more exciting or challenging or fun or whatever. To them, I'm just a boring old shrink.

And geez I'm rambling...
But basically, I think that if you ever spend time with him again and you want him to ever consider you romantically, it might be a good idea to just be fun. No talk of love or relationships or sex. Just relax, have a good laugh and enjoy the moment as if you were spending time with a platonic friend. Give him another chance to view you as freshly as he did when he first met you.

[green eyes]

ricearoni, beautiful advice! You are a San Francisco treat!

From your thread-

But it's like his actions don't match his words!!!

Yeah, I've been there.

Why are INTJs just so darn amazing and yet frustrating?

I do say many cheesy/goofy things in my e-mails, but I would say that more of my e-mails deal with "heavier" or "deeper" matters. I suppose part of it is that I have been getting something out of having him to vent some of my own frustrations to.... I've been doing this for a year and a half now. The subject lines of my e-mails are almost always pretty funny, though. Well, they make me laugh. :wacko:

I can't say that I've ever been "discarded" by a friend...I have always been the one to do the "discarding" (I attract the clingy types).

There have been short periods of time when I WAS NOT open to the idea of romance, but feelings were still being suppressed...the last time was right after we met-up last and for a short time afterwards. I believe he knew at the time, but I made sure and told him later on. 'Cause, you know, I tell him just about EVERYTHING. But I haven't allowed myself to get all hopeless for him again. Been there, done that.

Now I'm going to just leave him alone.

Thank you ALL for your support and advice!

[green eyes]

I also wonder if he is trying to protect me, in a way.

I used to be so whimsical and a dreamer, but with a strong sense of direction and purpose...that was the person he fell in love with.

I doubt he wants his situation to affect me as much as it has....

[Minerva]

Green eyes,

I have been following this thread.

First off, I am glad to see that you got the strength for your divorce. I think your husband put you through enough!

Now, I can't truly imagine what you must be going through, but as a fellow FJ, I would venture to think that you must be in a great deal of pain, very confused, and your self-confidence must be badly shaken. You could be shaken on much deeper levels that you may even realize. IMHO I think that the best thing for YOU is to regroup yourself. You have gone through an ordeal. Your WHOLE life has just been disrupted! Don't you think that its time for you to do something for YOURSELF?

As an ISFJ, it is difficult for me to cut ties. But there comes a time of self preservation. You MUST begin thinking about yourself. How much more of yourself do you want to risk?
It seems to me that neither you nor your INTJ friend is a good shape for a serious relationship (at least at the moment). I am assuming here that, for you, sex means that a relationship is serious. Correct me if I am wrong.

IMO BOTH you and your friend need time. Give him and yourself that. It seems to me that he is unsure of what he truly wants and you are too. Time, my dear!

From your post above: "I used to be so whimsical and a dreamer, but with a strong sense of direction and purpose...that was the person he fell in love with." Don't you want to become this person again? I think she still lives inside you, but she has been battered and is now frightened to live. But finding her is something that you have to do on your own. Find yourself... the true you. Don't run the risk of becoming someone else by trying to help your friend and becoming something just for him. You are in an emotionally precarious position.

If you really love this man, you have to be in a position to make the best decision for the both of you. I just don't see how you could at this point. Your emotions must be in utter turmoil.

Just my 2 cents.

[green eyes]

That is a very kind post, Minerva...you must be very sweet. :)


It seems to me that neither you nor your INTJ friend is a good shape for a serious relationship (at least at the moment). I am assuming here that, for you, sex means that a relationship is serious. Correct me if I am wrong.
Sorry for not making this clear. The sex that was to be had was to be "detached". I am still doing that sort of thing with the hubs when...really needed. I just wanted a new partner (I mean, I've been dreaming of him for so long and all).

I was trying to just enjoy life while I am still young.
"Just live"....

Now, I can't truly imagine what you must be going through, but as a fellow FJ, I would venture to think that you must be in a great deal of pain, very confused, and your self-confidence must be badly shaken. You could be shaken on much deeper levels that you may even realize.

I may not realize it, but emotionally, I think I am doing just fine.
I know what it's like to feel worthless. I know what it's like to stay in bed all day and cry. I am nowhere near that. Nor am I numb.
I have admitted that I am confused.
Self-confidence? Yes, I'd say it's lacking somewhat...but I am more confident now than I have been in a long, long time.

I watched my marriage die a slow death, but now it's dead and in the grave.


It seems to me that he is unsure of what he truly wants and you are too.
Very good observation. He would probably agree. His unsureness was no secret the last time I saw him...but later on, I started to think that finding our way, together, wasn't a totally terrible idea.


From your post above: "I used to be so whimsical and a dreamer, but with a strong sense of direction and purpose...that was the person he fell in love with." Don't you want to become this person again? I think she still lives inside you, but she has been battered and is now frightened to live. But finding her is something that you have to do on your own. Find yourself... the true you.


How do you know when you've found "it"? If I know who I was, can I decide who I will be?

What if the "true me" is a selfless martyr?

What if the "true me" takes on other people's burdens?

What if the "true me" considers love the single most important and powerful thing in the world?

My parents sometimes get aggravated when I describe things that I find about my personality type. I just tell them, "This isn't a determinate of how I'll be in the future; it just helps me figure out why I was the way I was and why I did the things I did. It's my natural tendencies. There is always room for improvement." They worry that I'll use the MBTI as an excuse to make the wrong choices...all over again.

I'm already so different. I'm keeping this strength; I know that much. I think I will probably always be a tad more emotional than most people, but I won't ever let myself feel like a failure...again. And I think I have become quite selfish.

Maybe it's true that I think "I" wasn't good enough for my husband. Well, I was good enough, just not liked or appreciated very much. If I liked something, he assumed it was "stupid". If I tried to be my goofy self, he rolled his eyes. If I tried to talk about anything "deep", he immediately tuned me out. He liked to talk about two things: work and football (I hate football). I listened. Yes, I listened...and I scratched his back everyday, and I was faithful.... But I also yelled, and yelled, and cried. Then I just didn't care enough to even yell.

It all started in cycles. I would try REALLY hard to get my husband to pay attention to me, then I would get really depressed, and then I would shut down for awhile and not even care. Then the cycle would start all over again.

Eventually, I pretty much just gave up.

I isolated myself for most of the marriage. I didn't really have any friends. I just wanted my husband to be my friend, and he just couldn't. He fell so short of anything I needed or wanted.

I know from the past, plenty of people liked me, even loved me just fine. What they liked was my loving, helpful, and fun nature. I CARED about people and things, but I lived in "la-la land". I was somewhat of an activist when I dated my INTJ friend. I was a vegetarian. I also had never grown out of the dream of being a princess. In fact, my INTJ friend promised me that he would one day throw me a ball. :love: (Deep down, I think I still might kinda sorta wanna be a princess)
As a child, I had many dreams of great things to help many people. Most of my extended family thought that I was going to grow-up to be a nun.

Don't run the risk of becoming someone else by trying to help your friend and becoming something just for him.

I don't just want to help my friend, I want to help myself. My own life's circumstances combined with the reality of what's happening to him...it threatens the hope I used to have...for life, for God....

His situation SUCKS! How can I not think about it? Do I just be his friend and pretend like everything is fine and normal?
Delusion...yeah, I have experience with that....

But if something isn't working, you change it, right?

By nature, I am a perfectionist, but why bother trying so hard? Does it REALLY matter?

What if everything I do is just a waste of time?

[Henry]

But I also yelled, and yelled, and cried.

It all started in cycles. I would try REALLY hard to get my husband to pay attention to me, then I would get really depressed, and then I would shut down for awhile and not even care. Then the cycle would start all over again.

I just wanted my husband to be my friend, and he just couldn't. He fell so short of anything I needed or wanted.

They worry that I'll use the MBTI as an excuse to make the wrong choices...all over again.

(Deep down, I think I still might kinda sorta wanna be a princess)

Constructive recommendation: therapy.

[abski83]

Hi greeneyes,

First off, huggles for u! Reading the posts on ur thread made me think of love and relationships.

I hope that u may be blessed with clarity and be guided in making decisions.

[green eyes]

Thank you all again for posting!

Well, I found out last night, through an e-mail, that my INTJ friend tried to call me. He wanted to hang out.

I missed his call.

I guess we'll see where this goes....

[Tunnel]

(Deep down, I think I still might kinda sorta wanna be a princess)


Maybe you just need a knight in shining armor to save you?

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[Kotetsu]

You sound like a wonderful person. You seem to have an inherent need to help and care for others. I find that beautiful. It's sad to think that someone so selfless should suffer so greatly, but that also seems, sadly, to not be unusual. I find that distressing.

I do not know what is the best thing for you to do, but I do hope you can overcome your problems.

[green eyes]

Thank you for your kind words, Kotetsu, but you make me sound better than I really am. I’m not that great, really. I can be pretty selfish and selective about those I choose to really care about.

I figured I’d update my story for those of you that are interested-

First of all, I have peace.

Second of all...my INTJ friend and I saw each other once in late August, and I kept him up to date on the happenings of my life for a little while after. I even wrote and sent him a poem about how much I wanted to be there for him, to keep him from feeling alone and to help him find strength if he ever needed it…it had been years since I’d attempted poetry. He has responded every now and then through e-mail to make sure I know that he actually does give a damn about me, too.
Unfortunately his legal situation is still an ugly, crazy, ridiculous one; he is still awaiting trial and assumed to be guilty by most of the people in our area…but I will continue to stand by his side.

But my e-mails to him have slacked off a bit since starting a romantic relationship with another INTJ that I contacted online after a few months of fascination, admiration, and excited giggles from afar. This one is a keeper. ;) It’s a long-distance thing, temporarily, but it’s the healthiest and most fulfilling relationship that I’ve ever had. It has been a very different experience. We were slow, cautious, honest, and analytical before "officially" starting anything; but still, it didn’t take very long at all for us to realize that we were in love. I don’t need him for my happiness; I just love him. He is very smart, practical, and masculine...we mesh well in so many wonderful ways. I feel like our strengths and weaknesses work beautifully together. He loves and adores me as I am, and I feel no need to change him. We both seem to be what the other wants for a long-term partner (despite him having an interest in football :p). I think we have a lot of potential to build a wonderful life together, and we would both really like to do just that.

One more thing- I may feel like a princess, and my boyfriend may seem like a strong and protective knight in shining armor…but I definitely do not need saving.

[azelismia]

I am so perplexed. I am an INFJ, and I fear that I am desperately in love with an INTJ. I wish I knew how he feels about me....

10 years ago we were both very much crazy about each other; we were each other's "first love". He was very dedicated to his Christianity, and soon after he graduated from high school, he broke up with me for fear that his strong sexual desire for me would lead him to stray from God. He had also planned to join the Marines but didn't because he wanted to completely immerse himself in serving the Lord. We remained friends for years after our break-up; he was always the one to pop up to visit me or call to see how I was doing. As a hopeless romantic, I guess I never fully got over him. Right now, by no fault of his own, his life is trainwreck. About a year ago I wrote him a letter, confessing that I had been dreaming about him, and that I wanted to see him. We met, and we almost kissed...but I wouldn't let it happen because he seemed so unsure about how to handle the situation, partially because of the uncertainty of his future. The chemistry between us was very obvious. After our encounter, I wrote to him everyday for about a week and a half. I don't know if I scared him, or if he was really thinking the situation over...because he pretty much ignored me. My husband and I (yes, I'm married!) were sleeping in separate rooms at the time and had been talking of separation...I went ahead and kicked him out. Eventually my INTJ interest told me that I was a wonderful person, but he didn't feel like we were "fated" to be. We have remained e-mail buddies throughout the past year, but I've felt like it has been mostly one-sided (mine). I didn't hear from him for about 2 months, and then, about one week ago, he contacted me with a very emotional e-mail. His situation has gotten more dire, and I fear that he is just obsessing over the past as a result of stress...I'm also worried that he is only resorting to me because the people in his life are dwindling down to almost no one. He wishes that he had slept with me all of those years ago...that his service to God was a waste. He said that he really appreciated my friendship, and he even told me that if I was lonely and wanted "some", to let him know. He has always been a mentor to me, and to see his morals in such a miserable state is deeply disturbing. I am not going to sleep with him, but I did tell him that I still dream about him often. I am always very honest with him...I even always state my love (like family) for him at the end of all of my correspondence... I think I've been in denial about the kind of love I'm feeling, and I really want to let him know. I should also mention that I am back with my husband, but we are still troubled....

Is his e-mail a sign of possible feelings, or has he just "snapped"?

From what I've read about INTJs, I think it's out of their nature to lie about their feelings. It sounds very odd to me.

Also, I think once we INFJs feel like we've really "connected" with someone, we can have trouble letting go...and INTJs are so stimulating! My husband is an ENFP, and despite the fact that many websites claim that ENFPS are ideal/natural matches for both INTJs and INFJs, I find communicating with him very frustrating. It's like we are on two different planets...he is very superficial and easy-going...and I am not.

Does anyone have any advice for me?
I'm not a delicate flower....
If you have anything, please dish it.
I feel as if I'm going crazy!
I want to cut him out of my life, just so I won't have to deal with him always in my head.
He used to be so strong and independent, like most INTJs, but I'm worried that now, he may need me....

I don't think he sounds very intj.

[Pandemonium]

This entire thread has caused me to stare dumbfounded. You were not happy until you got a INTJ. There is an infj in my uni course and she find me to be an evil, cold, calculated individual that would not show empathy, sympathy or sorrow even if my own mother died. OHH, IT IS LOVE. I'm excited!

OHH!!! maybe i won't be happy until get myself an infj? Sigh, Who knows?

She is just jealous that I get the second highest grades in the degree by sleeping through lectures. (she has the highest)

In my opinion she is more manipulative than I am. Has every guy wrapped around her finger and she knows it. She is a nice girl though. Would not hurt a kitten.

However, this thread is absurd. God, Jail, Satanic Rituals, A lying ENFP, A broken INTJ, a nice INTJ, Blind Parents, Social Constraints.............

I am glad that you are happy now. Don't do it again.

[smashy]

Your story should give a good Hollywood movie. It has lots of the typical drama.

I must say that, sorry, but that´s the kind of stories I don´t have much patience to hear. You seem to be in a dead marriage that you delay in making the funeral, dying to go to bed with this INTJ guy and who knows more, and somehow you continue to live your day-to-day life like that. I don´t know what to say, really. I would advise to leave your husband alone to find someone that really loves him, but it just seems to me that you don´t do it because you´re affraid of ending with nothing. And then you would be a solitary princess, so sad.

I´m sorry if I´m being too harsh, but I´m an INTJ female with little patience for these kind of situations. I don´t see the feelings in that situation, I just see the whole non-sense and bullshit attached.

I´m also sorry to say but love has nothing to do with suffering and pain and all that crap, love is about honesty, sharing, giving and receiving. And before you have it with someone else, you have to have that with yourself.

Therapy would do really good to you.

[Tunnel]

I´m also sorry to say but love has nothing to do with suffering and pain and all that crap, love is about honesty, sharing, giving and receiving. And before you have it with someone else, you have to have that with yourself.



You're alittle late with the advice but that paragraph I just quoted from you sums up what happened in this person's life very well or perfectly.

I''ll say that what she went through was a real pursuit of happiness and that it was not bullshit. She guided herself to the right path and we saw it in this thread. Even if others made a post I feel that it didn't make a difference. What mattered was that she told someone about her life and got those emotions out.

You have to commend green eyes on her thought processes. Not many people I feel could correct their lives so beautifully from the point at which it started.

I only see good things for her future with the attitude she has and experience she went through - to the point where I get jealous.

(I feel like this post is too concise but I only want to elaborate if asked to - hey green eyes after you read this check out this funny show I found. Been digging it all day)

[smashy]

You're alittle late with the advice but that paragraph I just quoted from you sums up what happened in this person's life very well or perfectly.

I''ll say that what she went through was a real pursuit of happiness and that it was not bullshit. She guided herself to the right path and we saw it in this thread. Even if others made a post I feel that it didn't make a difference. What mattered was that she told someone about her life and got those emotions out.

You have to commend green eyes on her thought processes. Not many people I feel could correct their lives so beautifully from the point at which it started.

I only see good things for her future with the attitude she has and experience she went through - to the point where I get jealous.

(I feel like this post is too concise but I only want to elaborate if asked to - hey green eyes after you read this check out this funny show I found. Been digging it all day)

I really didn´t read the entire thread, I stopped when I saw her writting she wanted to be a princess. This is how far my patience went. Good for her that she found happiness.

[Pandemonium]

I want to be a princess. Tell me I'm prettier than the rest of the girls.

Damn I need a cigarette a bottle of whiskey and a reality check.

[44sunsets]

I´m sorry if I´m being too harsh, but I´m an INTJ female with little patience for these kind of situations. I don´t see the feelings in that situation, I just see the whole non-sense and bullshit attached.
...
Therapy would do really good to you.

I'm an INFJ and I agree. Your assessment is succinct and spot-on.

Some things are universal and transcend boundaries.

To the OP: either fix your marriage, or leave it. There is no such thing as half-hearted quibbling in no-man's land.

[phobus]

Wow!

I don't post much but I'm amazed of this thread for two things: how old it is and the trouble your friend is into.

First, I always wanted a close relationship with God, but I find churches to be far from perfect. Even the protestant church I assist that believes in the faith saves only dogma has a lot of control to the committed people. That's why I intentionally remain as a visitor of sorts. I believe they will try to take control of me, and I don't like that. The problem is, that it is very difficult to have a relationship with God when one's alone and that's why this year I've been in the worst faith crisis I remember.

Second, putting myself of the situation of your friend. I believe it's very difficult for him, I would never have sex or enter a relationship with a married woman. It's against my principles, and taken from what you are telling, he shares this particular value with me. Even if this people are treating him bad, he would feel worse if he thinks he's breaking a marriage, even one as broken as yours.

I really hope he regains his faith. But it's up to him, you should help him with this, if you are being a great temptation to him, I advice you to stay away.

Uff, it's so difficult to write in english, sorry if I didn't explain myself very well. Unfortunately, I have this problem even in spanish. I did not intent to be rude, sorry if I did.

Sorry again, I didn't see the page 4. It's a shame when a marriage ends. Hope you can help your friend and yourself.

[Zombicide]

It's his fault for loving this "Jesus" guy so much more than he loves you (a real person). His loss, I say follow through with cutting him out of your life altogether.

[Sesquipedalian]

Well first off, you're married. You've made a commitment there that I don't think you should turn your back on. I've heard so many amazing turn-around stories... It can be humbling forgiving someone else and admitting you've failed in many areas. You have a marriage to work on. It's time to go to counseling and work this crap out. My exgirlfriend's mom was on the virge of filing for divorce when she finally realized that she desperately needed to forgive her husband. Now they're amazingly happy. They've never been more in love. So many people just throw their marriages away now. Marriages are WORK, but that's part of the beauty... by not always getting your way you grow as a person.

This fanciful romance needs to stop pronto. He's in a destitute state and to hear a man of faith struggling to the point where he wants to seek even a little bit of momentary joy through sex is troubling. You're wise to have turned him down.

You aren't in highschool where you can dream about others or in an open dating relationship where you can shop around for other guys. You are married! I would suggest keeping contact with him to an absolute minimum, to avoid any sort of even mildly romantic relationship with him, and to get your priorities in order. ...shoulda', coulda', woulda'... The part of your life where you can chase after guys is over. That stopped the moment you vowed to have and to hold your husband until death due you part.

I also think it would be a very foolish move to link him to this thread.

[smashy]

Well first off, you're married. You've made a commitment there that I don't think you should turn your back on. I've heard so many amazing turn-around stories... It can be humbling forgiving someone else and admitting you've failed in many areas. You have a marriage to work on. It's time to go to counseling and work this crap out. My exgirlfriend's mom was on the virge of filing for divorce when she finally realized that she desperately needed to forgive her husband. Now they're amazingly happy. They've never been more in love. So many people just throw their marriages away now. Marriages are WORK, but that's part of the beauty... by not always getting your way you grow as a person.

This fanciful romance needs to stop pronto. He's in a destitute state and to hear a man of faith struggling to the point where he wants to seek even a little bit of momentary joy through sex is troubling. You're wise to have turned him down.

You aren't in highschool where you can dream about others or in an open dating relationship where you can shop around for other guys. You are married! I would suggest keeping contact with him to an absolute minimum, to avoid any sort of even mildly romantic relationship with him, and to get your priorities in order. ...shoulda', coulda', woulda'... The part of your life where you can chase after guys is over. That stopped the moment you vowed to have and to hold your husband until death due you part.

I also think it would be a very foolish move to link him to this thread.

There are people that live in Wonderland and need this crap in order to feel alive and desired. They desperately need drama in their lives.
Well, I don’t think marriage have to be till the end of your life. Why in this particular situation has her husband to try and save a marriage where his spouse loves another man (or think she's in love) and dreams of getting in his pants?

It has to be till the end of your life if you marry the right person, not if you married for hundred other reasons and regarding this specific situation described in this thread, I think her husband is better off to find someone else that really loves him, to find a real woman and not a child playing bedtime stories.

Although I agree marriage involves work and that some couples should work out their problems instead of just separate, I also see that divorce can be a good thing in certain situations. We must be wise to see the difference.

[ricearoni]

b.) Start acting like an adult, i'm sure highschool was a long time ago, fix your marriage, cut ties with your dark, mysterious and disturbed little girl crush and be a good wife/mother.

Perhaps if you read the entire thread or at least checked to see her most recent post, your post (and a few others) would make more sense.

She's not a mother and she's already separated from her husband. ALSO, she's currently dating a different INTJ. It sounds to me like she's got her head on straight and life is going pretty good for her now.

Anyway, Greeneyes I'm happy that things are going so well for you! Thanks so much for the update and I wish you lots of luck with your new relationship. :)

[JoshuaFairtex]

I got to about page 3 or so before I was tired of reading, seemed like a high school soap opera. Good that they are seperated then.

[blossom]

Good luck with your life, green eyes. While it does sound a bit soap opera-ish, that's the way a lot of people's lives can sound at various points in time; what matters is that you find a way through it and come out a better, wiser person. Tunnel had a great way of looking at it, and I think you are very brave for opening up like this; INTJs can be harsh, but often have good answers.

What is interesting to me is the way the INFJs vs. INTJs have responded to this thread...My opinion is that female INFJs tend to open up and write as a way of thinking things through for themselves (they need to get it out in order to be able to process it). They want feedback, but it's more like a brainstorming session where everyone (INTJs here) comes up with an idea--feedback or solution--and the INFJ uses her intuition to choose which ones are useful and right for her at the time. Other INFJs will tend to want to listen, comfort and empathize instead of brainstorming problem solving idead which is why opening up to INTJs or other NTs tends to be more useful than other NFs. Those of you ridiculing or deriding her are missing the point and acting immature; no one is going to mature, get their life together, etc by you insulting them.

[ElstonGunn]

Those of you ridiculing or deriding her are missing the point and acting immature; no one is going to mature, get their life together, etc by you insulting them.

I'd probably agree with that. On a similar note, I don't see much of a point in reprimanding someone for a mistake if that person is already aware of the fact that it is a mistake. That's like yelling at someone who fell out of a tree and broke his leg. No amount of scolding is going to set the broken bone. But if that kind of thing makes you feel better, then I can't really blame you for doing it, regardless of how useless it is.

The OP seems to be coming to an understanding of the mistakes she made. I also think it's good that she never actually acted on the urges she had in regard to the bad INTJ. Obviously, having those urges couldn't have been a particularly good sign, but she seems to have avoided adding to the problem, at least on a practical level if nothing else, by not acting on them. I couldn't say what the reason for not doing that was, but it seems like a good thing to me.

I'm not sure how it works out in most places, but I thought some jurisdictions required a certain period of separation before it was legal to get a divorce. That could be the case here. Or maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about. Even if it's not, I think there's something to be said for the "try it before you buy it" plan (but I'm cautious like that about most things).

It sounds like things are improving overall for you, Green Eyes. I hope they continue to do so. Good luck with all that.