US history, religion and education

[TigerL]

Interesting article in the NY Times today:

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Over two days, more than a hundred people — Christians, Jews, housewives, naval officers, professors; people outfitted in everything from business suits to military fatigues to turbans to baseball caps — streamed through the halls of the William B. Travis Building in Austin, Tex., waiting for a chance to stand before the semicircle of 15 high-backed chairs whose occupants made up the Texas State Board of Education. Each petitioner had three minutes to say his or her piece.

“Please keep César Chávez” was the message of an elderly Hispanic man with a floppy gray mustache.

“Sikhism is the fifth-largest religion in the world and should be included in the curriculum,” a woman declared.

Following the appeals from the public, the members of what is the most influential state board of education in the country, and one of the most politically conservative, submitted their own proposed changes to the new social-studies curriculum guidelines, whose adoption was the subject of all the attention — guidelines that will affect students around the country, from kindergarten to 12th grade, for the next 10 years. Gail Lowe — who publishes a twice-a-week newspaper when she is not grappling with divisive education issues — is the official chairwoman, but the meeting was dominated by another member. Don McLeroy, a small, vigorous man with a shiny pate and bristling mustache, proposed amendment after amendment on social issues to the document that teams of professional educators had drawn up over 12 months, in what would have to be described as a single-handed display of archconservative political strong-arming.


(Boy, am I glad I didn't grow up in Texas!)

[ElstonGunn]

I didn't really need another reason to never want to live in Texas, but that state just can't help but churn 'em out.

Also, as a Christian myself, I sometimes really can't stand Christians.

[Grimstad]

I think we should all encourage them to secede

[kepstein8888]

Thou shalt not kill...unless you're trying to build a bad-ass reputation as the death penalty capital of the US.

It's scary to think that this is how textbooks are made: by a room full of obsessive, meddlesome chatter-hens with nothing better to do. But I guess it's the same in a lot of countries.

Maybe other countries should write our textbooks, and vice versa. That will make it more interesting.

[ElstonGunn]

Maybe other countries should write our textbooks, and vice versa. That will make it more interesting.

That would go over even worse than what I'd do if I were a history teacher (using Howard Zinn as the main source).

It definitely would be interesting, though.

[thod]

Never thought much of the Jesus story being set in the middle east anyhow. We need to rewrite. Jesus of Houston was born in a stable, nothing wrong with that all cowboys ride horses, very patriotic. He was baptised in the Rio Grande. He travelled far healing the AIDS sufferers in the heathen state of California and preaching from Mount Rushmore. Even Mexicans and Blacks were welcomed into his church. Eventually he was called to Washington where the evil scribes and liberals called for his death. He was crucified in the Rocky mountains and his body buried there in a cave.

[reb]

we only execute liberals. what's wrong with that?

note: rene nunez is on this board of education selecting school books which will likely be the standard for most of the country. i completely disagree with the way school books and the 'facts' in them are selected. i disagree with the way the board is selected, as well. it does no good; the progressive agenda is alive and well on the texas school board. i don't agree with any religion in schools; that's a matter for parents to deal with, as is sex ed. i don't agree with any progressive agendas being in schools, either. teach reading, writing and arithmetic. give a moderate, middle of the road treatment to history, or simply stop teaching it if they're going to lie about it, and pitch out teachers who are on either extreme of the cultural war. explain to kids that what is being taught even 'in the middle of the road' is opinion, and the kids should read on their own to learn history for themselves. political agendas in schools are against the basic idea of education. i am against property taxes paying for schools if this is the kind of trash that will be taught....few of the young people i have spoken to in a long while really understand the U.S. Constitution....we largely have a nation of blank slates due to the educational system.

i'm glad y'all aint here, either, based on some of the posts i've seen. please, help us secede.

[TigerL]

I was asked to put in a paragraph from the story so here it is:

"How Christian Were the Founders?

Following the appeals from the public, the members of what is the most influential state board of education in the country [Texas], and one of the most politically conservative, submitted their own proposed changes to the new social-studies curriculum guidelines, whose adoption was the subject of all the attention — guidelines that will affect students around the country, from kindergarten to 12th grade, for the next 10 years. Gail Lowe — who publishes a twice-a-week newspaper when she is not grappling with divisive education issues — is the official chairwoman, but the meeting was dominated by another member. Don McLeroy, a small, vigorous man with a shiny pate and bristling mustache, proposed amendment after amendment on social issues to the document that teams of professional educators had drawn up over 12 months, in what would have to be described as a single-handed display of archconservative political strong-arming."

[Causa Mortis]

I think we should all encourage them to secede

Texas-Utah-Alabama-West Virginia IMO. The United States of the Servile.

The article, IMO, is another illustration of the only firmly-held political belief I have today: that religious zealotry, at home and abroad, is the only real threat to progress and liberty in the United States.

[Arkeph]

I may be taking an overly broad perspective, but it seems to me that the problem is a symptom of a generally dysfunctional society, and isn't properly blamed on any specific political or religious movement.

One idea that seems to manifest itself all too often is the idea that individuals should have veto power over vast public institutions, over the law, and even over facts. It's usually one man "standing up to the experts" or some such nonsense; always a dramatic illustration of hubris.

To me, it's reminiscent of stark fear painted with a veneer of righteous indignation(i.e. religious fanaticism and/or nationalism).

[LaoTzu]

teach reading, writing and arithmetic. give a moderate, middle of the road treatment to history, ..... explain to kids that what is being taught even 'in the middle of the road' is opinion, and the kids should read on their own to learn history for themselves. political agendas in schools are against the basic idea of education.


I agree to this for grades 1-8. Primary schools should deal with primary education... primary meaning 'the basics'. (Three R's type shit). Give kids a foundation for knowledge to be built on... Don't be trying to indoctrinate them, or force feed them.... teach them how to learn. Books should be ideologically benign, middle of the road works.

High school (9-12) is for kids to begin to find their own voice/path... and all should be available at this time to help them to this goal; regardless of ideologies.


If parents feel the need for their kids to know more...they should teach it themselves.

[kepstein8888]

...religious zealotry, at home and abroad, is the only real threat to progress and liberty in the United States.

A lot of people say it's religion. I'd say it's zealotry in a broader sense: medieval thinking, prejudice, and groupthink. That can apply to nationalism and secular conservatism as well. To many wing-nuts in this country, Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin, money, Fox TV, and the flag are their gods. And as far as they're concerned, the real God can go to heck, especially when He starts up with that nonsense about loving your neighbor and helping the poor.

[Nightsun]

Texas doesn't give USA a good international image, every time I think about USA I must tell myself "they are not all texas.."

[Angel1]

Wow, an overcorrection on the right for our textbooks. History textbooks need to report the facts of what happened and give some background on each topic they cover. Just the facts, folks. I understand the need to forcibly correct some lies and deceit that have slipped into our textbook as a result of the work by people on the left, but it is self-defeating to give them the same ammunition to use against the right.

Textbooks were politicized before Texas moved to an extreme reaction on the right and they will be politicized until people start caring more about the truth than being told that they are right and being patted on their backs. The United States is neither to blame for everything that has gone wrong since our nation was created, nor completely blameless for all events that have gone wrong since our nation was created. Just the facts, the cold hard facts.

[Pachystima]

Texas has a lot of "Movement Conservatives" in positions of influence. In fact, so do many other states (eg. Kansas). One has to admire their consistency if not their intellect. It appears as though the Texas State Board of Education has more than it's fair share of MC's.

For more info on MC's, check out

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First, a list of heroes of the MC's as quoted from the above website

"Examples of movement conservatives would include:

* The late Senator Jesse Helms
* The late President Ronald Reagan
* The late Congressman John Ashbrook
* The late Journalist Robert Novak
* Activist Phyllis Schlafly
* Justice Clarence Thomas
* The late University President Jerry Falwell
* United Nations Ambassador John Bolton
* Columnist Thomas Sowell
* Talk-radio host Rush Limbaugh
* U.S. Representative for Minnesota's 6th District Michele Bachmann
* Author and talk-radio host Mark Levin"

Great thinkers and warm kindly folks all. And some of the Desiderata of the MC's quoted from the same place


" * Classroom prayer
* Prohibition of abortion
* Abstinence education
* Traditional marriage, not same-sex marriage
* Respect for differences between men and women, boys and girls
* Laws against pornography
* The Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms
* Economic allocative efficiency (as opposed to popular equity)
* The death penalty
* Parental control of education
* Private medical care and retirement plans
* Canceling failed social support programs
* No world government
* Enforcement of current laws regarding immigration
* Respect for our military ... past and present
* Rejection of junk science such as evolution and global warming
* Low taxes, especially for families
* Conferderationism (less power for the federal government and more for local and state
governments)
* A strong national defense "

To me, it sounds like someone mated Puritanism and the Protestant Ethic and came up with a theocratic, lassiez faire system that will work only for the true believers.

[Causa Mortis]

A lot of people say it's religion. I'd say it's zealotry in a broader sense: medieval thinking, prejudice, and groupthink. That can apply to nationalism and secular conservatism as well. To many wing-nuts in this country, Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin, money, Fox TV, and the flag are their gods. And as far as they're concerned, the real God can go to heck, especially when He starts up with that nonsense about loving your neighbor and helping the poor.

Funny that you complain about groupthink and then only mention radical conservatives.


The issue with religion is that the wishes of the ego and the intellect become basically inseperable because the wishes of the ego typically become divinely inspired. From there, its a short walk to "My values are *the values*, so get the fuck in line"

Sarah Palin is a religious zealot and an idiot. Ditto for Glen Beck, who demonstrates the rigor of Mormon epistemology on a daily basis.

I have zero problem with Rush Limbaugh. Yes, he has moments of idiocy and intolerance, but he's basically a libertarian-leaning conservative - not this bullshit corporate-religious paternalism that's come to dominate the Republican party since 9/11. Although I do not generally agree with Rush, you can work with him because he's in the Greek tradition of focusing on verifiable issues - not on non-verifiable bullshit that's allegedly divinely inspired. Ditto for O'Reilley.

Radical voices are fine so long as they're not advancing an agenda that involves violating the free will of harmless choices of others. The world is a better place because of Chomsky. The world is a better place because of Friedman.

Voices that want to take away the free and harmless choices of others - whether that be in the bedroom, at schools, at the marijuana farm, at the doctor's office, on television, on the internet - are by definition a threat to liberty, regardless of whether the meme that justifies the control originates in Kabul or Salt Lake City.

[Mader]

Just curious, what has Sarah Palin said that makes you call her a religious zealot??? Not trying to pick a fight, curious.

As far as Texas is concerned, Texas education has always been different, and yes, Texas has usually been politically conservative - meaning, government get out of my way and leave me be. Yes, they are very fond of the 2nd Amendment, as am I.

Updating school texts has become a very big business, but it often has little to do with facts. I have a grandchild in 3rd grade, he has errors in his science book about clouds!!! But the pictures are great!!!

Textbooks matter. Textbooks hold the truth that our children learn. Tilt the textbooks, one way or another, and you tilt the belief system of our children. Delete an event or person in history, and our children lose a part of their own history - they will never know what they don't know. History can be used to tilt beliefs.

[ElstonGunn]

As far as Texas is concerned, Texas education has always been different, and yes, Texas has usually been politically conservative - meaning, government get out of my way and leave me be.

Yes, leave me be, as long as that "me" is acceptable. The live and let live attitude doesn't apply to non-whites, feminists, Jews, gays, Muslims, non-Anglos, etc., etc. I think that's essentially the reason why some members of the Texas board of education want to change the state's textbooks, by the same means that you're suggesting.

On social issues, conservative states are less tolerant of differences and more likely to see them by default as threats that have to prove that they're acceptable before they will be tolerated. And like you pointed out, one way to encourage compliance with the state-sanctioned model of limited individuality is to get 'em while they're young. Don't point out the non-idealized parts of history, or the people who challenged the country's mythological infallibility. Instead highlight the good parts of American history, and the people who responded to the challengers and tried to move society back towards conservatism. If you tell people for their whole lives that America was founded by Jesus, and it's the best country in the world and it always will be, it'll go a long way in discouraging dissent.

[Causa Mortis]

Palin is a religious fundamentalist:

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She also told the group that her eldest child, Track, would soon be deployed by the Army to Iraq, and that they should pray “that our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God, that’s what we have to make sure we are praying for, that there is a plan, and that plan is God’s plan.”

As soon as you start to state that your political beliefs are divinely inspired, I reach for my gun, because I know there's basically no point in reasoning with you - what's reason in the face of God telling you to do something?

[eagleseven]

Yes, leave me be, as long as that "me" is acceptable. The live and let live attitude doesn't apply to non-whites, feminists, Jews, gays, Muslims, non-Anglos, etc., etc.
Have you lived in Texas, or are you just making assumptions?

And like you pointed out, one way to encourage compliance with the state-sanctioned model of limited individuality is to get 'em while they're young.
No doubt why you would start them on Howard Zinn early?

Don't point out the non-idealized parts of history, or the people who challenged the country's mythological infallibility. Instead highlight the good parts of American history, and the people who responded to the challengers and tried to move society back towards conservatism.
Don't point out the heroic parts of history, or the people who challenged the country's sins. Instead highlight the worst parts of American history, and the people who responded to the challengers and tried to move society forwards towards communism.

If you tell people for their whole lives that America was founded by Jesus, and it's the best country in the world and it always will be, it'll go a long way in discouraging dissent.
If you tell people for their whole lives that America was founded by evil white men, and it's the worst country in the world and it always will be, it'll go a long way in encouraging dissent.

[ElstonGunn]

Have you lived in Texas, or are you just making assumptions?

I haven't lived there, but I've visited it, and I've known several Texans. If residence is an essential factor in criticizing a place, then I'll concede on that point. But I will also expect you to withdraw any criticisms that you have of things you haven't personally experienced, which I'm guessing includes communism, which you mention below.


No doubt why you would start them on Howard Zinn early?

I thought it was a good book that presented a very different history of the United States as compared to standard textbook histories. Every historical figure was just a person, not an over-idealized hero who had no flaws. I think a positive distortion of history can be even more dangerous than a negative one, although in subtler ways.


Don't point out the heroic parts of history, or the people who challenged the country's sins. Instead highlight the worst parts of American history, and the people who responded to the challengers and tried to move society forwards towards communism.

Have you lived under communism, or are you just making assumptions?


If you tell people for their whole lives that America was founded by evil white men, and it's the worst country in the world and it always will be, it'll go a long way in encouraging dissent.

Where did I say "evil" or "worst country"? If something as big as a nation has some considerable flaws in its history, that automatically makes it evil and the worst of its kind in your mind? Surely you're smarter than that.

Realistically speaking, do things improve when people recognize flaws and try to fix them, or when people pat themselves on the back and congratulate themselves for being so great? I'd suggest the former. Although it's off topic, if you want to discuss this point, I'd be happy to (just start another thread and point me in its direction). But for some reason, I'm getting the impression that you'd prefer to get hot-headed and unnecessarily combative in arguing for a point that you've already decided to be unwavering about.

[eagleseven]

I haven't lived there, but I've visited it, and I've known several Texans. If residence is an essential factor in criticizing a place, then I'll concede on that point. But I will also expect you to withdraw any criticisms that you have of things you haven't personally experienced, which I'm guessing includes communism, which you mention below.
I mentioned Communism below, yes. I realize I do not have the personal experience to make broad-based stereotypes about Communism, and so limit my arguments to statistics and the opinion of those who have personal experience.


I thought it was a good book that presented a very different history of the United States as compared to standard textbook histories. Every historical figure was just a person, not an over-idealized hero who had no flaws. I think a positive distortion of history can be even more dangerous than a negative one, although in subtler ways.
It was a politically biased view of history, omitting any facts that contradicted his ideology. It is interesting in that it reveals the worldview of a proud anti-American Marxist, but a poor choice for forming impressionable minds...unless you are a Marxist, that is.



Have you lived under communism, or are you just making assumptions?
Did I make any accusations about Communists? Did I call them racist, sexist bigots?

No.

I simply inverted your statement, making no value judgments. By teaching Zinn, you would be doing the very thing you railed against...spreading political extremism.

Where did I say "evil" or "worst country"? If something as big as a nation has some considerable flaws in its history, that automatically makes it evil and the worst of its kind in your mind? Surely you're smarter than that.

I simply inverted your statement. Perhaps you missed the identical syntax and grammar?

Realistically speaking, do things improve when people recognize flaws and try to fix them, or when people pat themselves on the back and congratulate themselves for being so great? I'd suggest the former.
Since when was self-hatred anything but destructive? Modern US History textbooks, if anything, celebrate the struggles of women and minorities to achieve equal opportunity.

Zinn went far beyond merely pointing out our uglier moments, to openly attacking the American system with a vitriol that made him infamous. One wonders why he did not move to China in his ailing years.

Although it's off topic, if you want to discuss this point, I'd be happy to (just start another thread and point me in its direction). But for some reason, I'm getting the impression that you'd prefer to get hot-headed and unnecessarily combative in arguing for a point that you've already decided to be unwavering about.
You voice casual support of a man who detested the idealogical foundation upon which this country was built, and expect a gentle exchange?

Would you respond gently to someone who casually voiced support for apartheid?

[Lucid]

There is room in our education system for both Howard Zinn and Pat Robertson. Children should learn about the Marxist perspective and the neocon perspective.