Dating an INTJ female

[md21017md]

So I am an ESFP guy dating and INTJ female. Kind of strange, I seem to attract INTJ's. Two of my closest friends are both INTJ's, I think a few other women I dated were intj's.

As friends, INTJ's are fine, but damn you are trying as mates. So here is my delema, without revealing too much for the sake of annonimity. We've been dating over a year, more or less living together. I still don't really know her. I still don't have a firm grasp on some of her values. One of the biggest issues right now is trust. From her, she says "I love you, I don't want anyone else". Then to paraphrase "Unless I tell you otherwise just assume no matter what you see no matter how questionable, I am not interested in anyone else". Then I get all these really odd " you really expect me to believe this" crap. Some of it to listen to sounds so petty, but at the same time it almost sounds (at least to us extroverts) as being deceptive.

Here is a good example, again, keep on mind, while we have seperate place, we are at 1 or the other for the most part.

Me:What is your schedule like this week, maybe dinner out thursday?
Her: ummm I can't I have something to do.

A bit later in some random discussion

Her: well blah blah blah and I have to take this client out for dinner thursday

Later another discussion, maybe her looking through her schedule talking out lound.

Her: well, I could juggle things around, maybe move this schedule here and do that thursday night.
Me: I thought you had to take a client out thursday night?
Her: No, that was just dinner with Bob from work and whom ever else was coming.

A variation on this is:

Her: I have to take a client out thursday, so I won't be around
Me: Ok

Then Thursday, maybe talking on the phone mid afternoon, in the conversation

Her: Yeah, so I have to get out of here by 5 to meet everyone. When are you leaving work?

Me: 5:30 or so

Her: Oh, then why don't you come meet us?


Ugggg Why the seemingly deceptive dialog? Why the hell not say so up front? Why the I have something to do so I won't be around, then invite me?This drives me absolutely insane to the point of thinking of breaking up. This is a minor example, they get much more involved to the point of wondering her intentions.

The second, is this an intj thing also?

Her and I get together, go out for a night on the town, by 10pm she's falling asleep, yet if she goes out with her girl friends, 12 midnight she's still cranking. Her response is that she feels so comfortable around me, all she wants to do is curl up. Nice to know, but it's killing my extroverted recharge time just as much as dragging you guys to a party everynight after work with all new people for a week or 2.


So can anyone help me understand this strange creature I fell in love with?

[PRBori]

Hmmm... good luck, that's all I can say.

It's hard to determined the situation. I know for a fact that we tend to take work seriously. I'm actually talking to an ENTJ and he lives in another country, he is always out, and I'm always at home, but I know and he knows that we are truthful to each other.

We tend to be loyal even on long distance relationships and really don't worry much if the men goes out with other women as long as that men is honest and direct from day one.

When it comes to her going to sleep at 10, not sure of it. Normally if my men is with me, I'll keep him awake for a while. ;D

So that being said, I cannot give you a direct answer to your situation except that you should analized everything carefully...

[mind_wander]

hi md21017md,

Actually, ESFPs are compatible with INTJs. You make us laugh, but we do have this tendencies to be workaholics, planamatics, strategizes alot, etc. and many more. Its not she is decieving you at all. "From her, she says "I love you, I don't want anyone else". By looking at this key phrase, she means you are the only one. So don't worry about me going to find another dude. Besides guy friends, not BF's. These are two completely different things. All I know you are safe, also give her some private space INTJs does have this need. Break it, well off you go.

BTW welcome :)

[Vicimdhar]

Here is a good example, again, keep on mind, while we have seperate place, we are at 1 or the other for the most part.

Me:What is your schedule like this week, maybe dinner out thursday?
Her: ummm I can't I have something to do.

A bit later in some random discussion

Her: well blah blah blah and I have to take this client out for dinner thursday

Later another discussion, maybe her looking through her schedule talking out lound.

Her: well, I could juggle things around, maybe move this schedule here and do that thursday night.
Me: I thought you had to take a client out thursday night?
Her: No, that was just dinner with Bob from work and whom ever else was coming.
I'm not a female, but I can see the point of this. Perhaps she doesn't want to say she's having dinner with a colleague because she thinks you will suspect her of having an interest in him. Even your post shows your mistrust of her even after what she said, so she has good reasons.

In general, I always try to avoid telling people that I'm going somewhere with a female friend/colleague as well. A lot of people will assume things and I want to avoid that. The "I'm going out with colleagues"-line is familiar to me.

And of course, INTJ's are private by nature, so avoiding saying what you're really thinking/doing is instinct as well.

[stasis]

Why the seemingly deceptive dialog? Why the hell not say so up front? Why the I have something to do so I won't be around, then invite me? This drives me absolutely insane to the point of thinking of breaking up. This is a minor example, they get much more involved to the point of wondering her intentions.
The obvious first question is, have you asked her directly about this behaviour? If so, what did she say? By "ask" I mean calmly inquire about, as opposed to emotionally confront. One possibility might be that she is certain she is going to be occupied by some work-related social activity at that time and does not know enough about what the activity is specifically to entail to know whether or not you would be able to come along. And then when she finds certainty about that, she tells you.

You also make it sound like she entertains work-related social activities regularly? If this is true, but the substance of those activities varies, what she calls any one of them might be an unimportant detail. I would imagine that to be the case particularly if she seems to not care very much about what she is calling them.

But I don't know why you would suspect infidelity when she is inviting you to accompany her. This is a minor example, yes? Do you have more?


Nice to know, but it's killing my extroverted recharge time
Go out without her if you need more of it.

[blueback]

Maybe she is trying to guard her time against feeling obligated to spend it with you. I do that a lot. I like to plan things that are months away but I don't like to plan things that are a couple days away, especially not socail things, because I don't know whether or not I'm going to want to do it later.

I just like a lot of private time, more than the average, and most people interpret that as some sort of insult. So, I make things up all the time that are a plausible reason why I CAN'T spend time with them when really I just don't WAN'T to. Maybe the two of you should have a very long, very frank discussion about how much of each other's time you are comfortable with.

If she's exhausted when she goes out with you but is energized when she goes out with her friends then you are doing something wrong. Unless she takes you home and makes passionate love to you or something, there could be context I'm missing. Ask her friends what she likes to do.



Basically, whatever else I said, women are flaky. I haven't known any INTJ women in person but I doubt they are very much different. All women like to do whatever they feel like at the moment; INTJ women are probably just better at rationalizing it. (I'm probably gonna get flammed for this)

So, I wouldn't look too deeply into the fact that she might be an INTJ. I'd look at the simple fact that she's a chick, and go from there. Just look at what she actually does in resonse to the situation she is in and that will tell you everything you need to know. If you don't know enough about her situation then the two of you aren't in a very close relationship, and you should expect problems anyway.

[Uytuun]

I haven't known any INTJ women in person but I doubt they are very much different. All women like to do whatever they feel like at the moment; INTJ women are probably just better at rationalizing it. (I'm probably gonna get flammed for this)

You bet your feathery ass you will. :p Not by me because I don't have the energy right now, but you will.

As for the INTJ female problem. One thing I can respond to, from what I've seen some introverted females get a lot less sociable when their man is around. It's a bit as if they think they can totally be themselves and there is no point in making the effort to be outgoing because they already have a guy. When they are with their girlfriends, they don't want to be the one sitting in the corner spoiling the other one's night out and they are probably more in the "single-and-outgoing mood" (not like women are all collectively cheating on their guys when they are out with the girls, but you get the idea). INFJs are a lot worse about it than INTJs.

[Haphazard]

Basically, whatever else I said, women are flaky. I haven't known any INTJ women in person but I doubt they are very much different. All women like to do whatever they feel like at the moment; INTJ women are probably just better at rationalizing it. (I'm probably gonna get flammed for this)

Oh, of course you are.

I propoes that everybody likes to do whatever they feel like at the moment. I can't think of how men are any different. The only difference is discipline, and God damn, I've known a lot of undisciplined men and women in my life.

Assuming once and for all that 'because she's a chick, ______' causes pain and misery for both partners. I wouldn't put too much weight into 'because she's an INTJ, _____' either, because as from this forum INTJs are very different from each other.

Just look at what she actually does in response to the situation she is in and that will tell you everything you need to know.

This is relatively sound advice, though.

[nightengale]

You bet your feathery ass you will. :p Not by me because I don't have the energy right now, but you will.

As for the INTJ female problem. One thing I can respond to, from what I've seen some introverted females get a lot less sociable when their man is around. It's a bit as if they think they can totally be themselves and there is no point in making the effort to be outgoing because they already have a guy. When they are with their girlfriends, they don't want to be the one sitting in the corner spoiling the other one's night out and they are probably more in the "single-and-outgoing mood" (not like women are all collectively cheating on their guys when they are out with the girls, but you get the idea). INFJs are a lot worse about it than INTJs.

I agree with this. Otherwise, I'm not really like your INTJ girlfriend. Maybe because I'm thinking about my best friend who happens to be an ESFP. She is a workaholic and every time I try to get together with her, she says she's busy but then I find out she's doing something else. She says she loves me and doesn't want our friendship to end, but those are just words to me.

Anyway, this example shows that it's more about the person than the personality type. At least, that's what I think :)

[blueback]

I propoes that everybody likes to do whatever they feel like at the moment. I can't think of how men are any different. The only difference is discipline, and God damn, I've known a lot of undisciplined men and women in my life.


Well, at least one of the first responses is rational. Yes, I'd thought of that. IMHO, however, the difference isn't so much discipline as it is self-deception. Based on everything I know about men and women; men are less likely to lie to themselves regarding the reason they change their mind. They might change their mind, they probably will at least once in their lives, but they will be fully aware of why they changed their mind and they will remember that reason at a point in the future. Women, on the other hand (and I'm describing the non-existant average woman), are very likely to both fool themselves about why they're changing their mind and then, at the point in the future when they have to recall their reason, to make up an entirely new one that is unrelated to the original lie they told themselves when they changed their mind in the first place.

That is why women are better liars than men are, because they believe their own lies. I'm not speaking of anyone in particular and I'm well aware of the fact that there are outlyers on the normal curve I'm describing. If you are one of those outlyers I don't need to hear about it. I don't choose to explain myself to the people on the peak of the curve so it is unlikely any of them are reading this.


Assuming once and for all that 'because she's a chick, ______' causes pain and misery for both partners. I wouldn't put too much weight into 'because she's an INTJ, _____' either, because as from this forum INTJs are very different from each other.


"pain and misery" huh? I thought that was marriage.


This is relatively sound advice, though.


Thanks. I figure it's a good way to figure out anyone at anytime.





blueback added to this post, 2 minutes and 15 seconds later...


It's a bit as if they think they can totally be themselves and there is no point in making the effort to be outgoing because they already have a guy.


So. . .are you saying that the INTJ women you know pretend to be someone else to snag a man? Or are you saying that the INTJ women you know pretend to be someone else to keep their friends happy?

[Haphazard]

Well, at least one of the first responses is rational. Yes, I'd thought of that. IMHO, however, the difference isn't so much discipline as it is self-deception. Based on everything I know about men and women; men are less likely to lie to themselves regarding the reason they change their mind. They might change their mind, they probably will at least once in their lives, but they will be fully aware of why they changed their mind and they will remember that reason at a point in the future. Women, on the other hand (and I'm describing the non-existant average woman), are very likely to both fool themselves about why they're changing their mind and then, at the point in the future when they have to recall their reason, to make up an entirely new one that is unrelated to the original lie they told themselves when they changed their mind in the first place.

That is why women are better liars than men are, because they believe their own lies. I'm not speaking of anyone in particular and I'm well aware of the fact that there are outlyers on the normal curve I'm describing. If you are one of those outlyers I don't need to hear about it. I don't choose to explain myself to the people on the peak of the curve so it is unlikely any of them are reading this.

I think here inlies the problem, 'nonexistant average woman'. I also think there's a problem in that an INTJ woman is already an outlier. I think that for intents and purposes of this forum we can toss most assumptions like this.

"pain and misery" huh? I thought that was marriage.

Perhaps. I don't see why people get married in the first place if all they do is bitch about it.

Thanks. I figure it's a good way to figure out anyone at anytime.

Yep.

So. . .are you saying that the INTJ women you know pretend to be someone else to snag a man? Or are you saying that the INTJ women you know pretend to be someone else to keep their friends happy?

Possibly the first, more likely the second. I know a lot of interesting people that I can't keep the attention of unless I act a lot more enthusiastic than I actually am. People have to make compromises to get along, to get something you have to give. INTJs tend to try to give what people want in conversation. If this is 'pretending to be somebody you're not,' then I'm definitely guilty.

[lordrrr]

Sounds like she just likes to keep to her own. I hate going into details of things. I'm not free Thursday, leave it at that. I don't need to tell you it's because I have to coach swimming lessons, because then you'll say something irrelevant like "You coach SWIMMING lessons? OMG tell me more!" and then I have to go into detail of the little brat with the nappy hair and how he wets himself before even touching the water he's so nervous and he's already 10 freakin years old, which I don't want to do because I know you're going to respond with "OMG I HATE kids like that haha. So while we're on topic-". Before I know it, I'm trapped in a SMALL TALK CONVERSATION (ugh!) and can't get out without appearing rude and unethical.

Don't question her on trivial details, if you want her to open up about details, don't question her once she tells you them. This sort of thing is something I wish my mom would understand about me because I end up hurting her feelings, which I don't want to do, I just don't want to waste my time with a petty small talk conversation.

So yeah just the next time something similar happens just say "Okay that's fine bye sweetie (or whatever the hell possessed name you refer to her as)" and end the conversation right there (unless of couse she really really seems like she wants to continue the conversation, in which you must obey her and continue it, but her being an INTJ I doubt this would occur). Eventually she'll tell you more details with the comfort of knowing you wont continue such a meaningless conversation.

Hoped this helped you bro!

[blueback]

I think here inlies the problem, 'nonexistant average woman'.


Did you know that the average amercian family has 2.5 kids? Isn't that interesting. . .cuz what do you do with .5 of a kid? Either you don't understand statistics or you're pretending not to to help your point.

The best way to understand an individual is to get to know them. The best way to understand someone you've never met is to get to know lots of people like them. Until I have more information about her every woman is the "nonexistant average woman." It's a place to start.

[Uytuun]

So. . .are you saying that the INTJ women you know pretend to be someone else to snag a man? Or are you saying that the INTJ women you know pretend to be someone else to keep their friends happy?

I wasn't really talking about INTJ women per se, because I think they are possibly more consequent, more able to pull themselves together than F types. But on the whole, and this is probably not restricted to women, introverts are more prone to retreat to their default/natural state when they are comfortable. This isn't just when they are around boyfriends, it probably first manifests in the core family and then occurs whenever they know people for a long time/very well. When this is not the case, they tend to make an effort to engage their E (F too?) in order to be more acceptable. This is probably a healthy exercise even though it is straining sometimes.

I wouldn't say it is not being yourself, but I suppose you disagree there.

And I only know one INTJ woman and that's myself. ;)

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Speaking as the constant voice of cynicism...............she sounds like she might be a deceptive person. During the first part of a relationship little tell tale hints come up now and then to point us in a particular direction about our would-be partners. Deception is not a good thing and when little bits show here and there that usually means that there is a gigantic hidden iceburg of deceit lurking just below the surface.

I'd recommend watching for more little lies.

[Haphazard]

Did you know that the average amercian family has 2.5 kids? Isn't that interesting. . .cuz what do you do with .5 of a kid? Either you don't understand statistics or you're pretending not to to help your point.

The best way to understand an individual is to get to know them. The best way to understand someone you've never met is to get to know lots of people like them. Until I have more information about her every woman is the "nonexistant average woman." It's a place to start.

I understand statistics, but I also understand that this isn't exactly the place to go spouting them.

Talking about the "nonexistent average woman" here is like talking about the average American family on a forum for American couples with infertility problems. By simply being here and INTJ we're already not average. It might be a better idea to start at the INTJ females thread and go from there.

[blueback]

I understand statistics, but I also understand that this isn't exactly the place to go spouting them.


It isn't exactly, huh? Then where is that place?


Talking about the "nonexistent average woman" here is like talking about the average American family on a forum for American couples with infertility problems. By simply being here and INTJ we're already not average. It might be a better idea to start at the INTJ females thread and go from there.


I already said that I didn't expect anyone who was reading this thread to be on the peak of the normal curve. Do you have a reading comprehension problem? It's all there in my post.

md21017md asked for help understanding a woman. I tried to give him my perspective so that maybe it would help him get closer to the truth. Understanding is never aided by thinking inside the box, like you want me to do. I simply presented him with an alternate way of thinking about the situation. I haven't noticed you offering any advice of your own.

[Haphazard]

It isn't exactly, huh? Then where is that place?



I already said that I didn't expect anyone who was reading this thread to be on the peak of the normal curve. Do you have a reading comprehension problem? It's all there in my post.

md21017md asked for help understanding a woman. I tried to give him my perspective so that maybe it would help him get closer to the truth. Understanding is never aided by thinking inside the box, like you want me to do. I simply presented him with an alternate way of thinking about the situation. I haven't noticed you offering any advice of your own.

I actually have a very bad reading comprehension problem...

You'd need to spout details from a simple random sample of women to a simple random sample. Nonetheless, there'll still be a lot who are offended, so it's likely best not to bother.

I think the point I was trying to make is that the standard deviation for one person is always going to be much greater than a standard deviation of a group, so when you're working with an individual it's best to take them into consideration as an individual and leave statistics out of it.

[PortInStorm]

Whoa- back to the topic!

I think she doesn't like to feel like she's got a leash on and just gives you the outline of what she's going to do (I think lordrr is right about hating to explain, and then small talk, etc etc).

And could it be that your SP talk is boring her to death (no offense, maybe you have very different interests) and that's why she's sleepy? There's nothing more tiring to me than extroverting AND enduring meaningless conversation. If it was up her alley (maybe her girlfriends share her interests more), then she'd be pretty energized when you two are out, THEN be exhausted once she got home.

[blueback]

I think the point I was trying to make is that the standard deviation for one person is always going to be much greater than a standard deviation of a group, so when you're working with an individual it's best to take them into consideration as an individual and leave statistics out of it.

Oh look! Things I posted a while ago. . .
"I'm not speaking of anyone in particular and I'm well aware of the fact that there are outlyers on the normal curve I'm describing. If you are one of those outlyers I don't need to hear about it. I don't choose to explain myself to the people on the peak of the curve so it is unlikely any of them are reading this"

. . .and. . .

"The best way to understand an individual is to get to know them. The best way to understand someone you've never met is to get to know lots of people like them. Until I have more information about her every woman is the "nonexistant average woman." It's a place to start."



md21017md, can you give us more information? For example, does she make vague plans with everyone she knows, or are you the only one? Is she sometimes hard to get on the phone? Does she ever actually lie to you, like tell you something that later turns out to be a blatant, conscious lie? Are you friends with any of her friends? Is she friends with any of your friends? Do you know her parents/ex boyfriends well enough to ask talk to them about her?

[Haphazard]

Oh look! Things I posted a while ago. . .
"I'm not speaking of anyone in particular and I'm well aware of the fact that there are outlyers on the normal curve I'm describing. If you are one of those outlyers I don't need to hear about it. I don't choose to explain myself to the people on the peak of the curve so it is unlikely any of them are reading this"

. . .and. . .

"The best way to understand an individual is to get to know them. The best way to understand someone you've never met is to get to know lots of people like them. Until I have more information about her every woman is the "nonexistant average woman." It's a place to start."


The bolded... well, I'd say because this person is the OP's girlfriend, he should have gotten to know her pretty well by now, or at least know as much about her as a place to start without resorting to the "nonexistent average woman". Because the OPer said he hadn't gotten to know his girlfriend pretty well after practically living with her I'd say that there are some pretty big problems with this relationship, bigger than assuming her to be the "nonexistent average woman." It wouldn't be a good idea and if you can stand it, Mr. OPer, you might want to corner her and have a very frank discussion about where your relationship is going.

From what I can figure from this INTJ girl, she may either not think too much of these dinner dates or just be very forgetful. Either that or she might be saying one thing that may technically be true while withholding information because she doesn't want to talk about it, while the information she's withholding is entirely innocent -- I know that I've done this to keep from pointless questioning from extroverts. Try to get it across that knowing some more about her scheduling is for your peace of mind. After some explaining and things it might either become clear that her 'seemingly deceptive behavior' is to save herself from some questioning about things that don't seem important at the time or you may reveal infidelity or whatever you're fearing.

Or it may be something totally different, but I hope it's the first, for your sake.

[md21017md]

I'll see if I can answer some of this. It's amazing what chatter boxes you can become when typing. lol

I'm not a female, but I can see the point of this. Perhaps she doesn't want to say she's having dinner with a colleague because she thinks you will suspect her of having an interest in him.

Maybe, but the feeling is more along the line of let me be vague and see if you'll care. Of course, this could be my interpretation, not her intent. It just seems strange to tell me "I won't be around Wednesday, I am having drinks and dinner with people from work" Then it turns out to be nothing big and she invites me. Guess it's a location thing - you have to be there to relly understand. To me the vagueness begs the question why? Which feels deceptive.

The obvious first question is, have you asked her directly about this behaviour? If so, what did she say? By "ask" I mean calmly inquire about, as opposed to emotionally confront.

We've had both depending on the topic. Generally she brushes it off.

Lorrrr, I see a lot of her in what you wrote. All I can say (as lovingly as possible) god you intj's are a lot of friggin work. Getting a simple answer sometimes.


Speaking as the constant voice of cynicism...............she sounds like she might be a deceptive person. During the first part of a relationship little tell tale hints come up now and then to point us in a particular direction about our would-be partners.

Yes!! And on top of that an air of "let me make you wonder".

Deception is not a good thing and when little bits show here and there that usually means that there is a gigantic hidden iceburg of deceit lurking just below the surface.

This is what I am wondering about

I'd recommend watching for more little lies.

I do, and have seen some minor inconsistancies.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I say these things about deception because I had a similar experience in the past within a relationship. The individual was quite deceptive, but it started out with small things. Also, this person was always trying to look important or cool or some such foolishness.

[md21017md]

I started this as a seperate post just to keep things from getting too long winded in one.

md21017md, can you give us more information? For example, does she make vague plans with everyone she knows, or are you the only one?

Not really sure about her making plans with others, remember intj.

Is she sometimes hard to get on the phone?

Ocassionally, and she turns the damn ting off at night, meaning after about 9 or 10PM.

Does she ever actually lie to you, like tell you something that later turns out to be a blatant, conscious lie?

I have seen some minor inconsistancies. For example, last summer she told me something to the effect of dropping a guy she works with somewhere, I think on her way home. A recent conversation of the same topic, it came out that she hung out there the entire time. I could have cared less either way, had she told me at the time, but the change in stories, while maybe innocent, still is another straw in the proverbial cammels back of wondering why.

Another time she came home from work, I asked how work was "it was fine, the usual". Then I find out while out with her and her g/f that she and the above guy had a meeting out, finished early, went to lunch, then drove around town showing him areas to live. Again innocent (maybe??) but when you tell me your day was "the usual", and this later comes out , makes me wonder what else happens that I don't hear about.

Are you friends with any of her friends?

Yes, and she has great friends, all of whom talk about what a great person she is. And I agree, whic is why this crap drive me insane.

Is she friends with any of your friends?

Yes

Do you know her parents

Yes, though I don't think this is a topic one can bring up to them, I think they might be intj's as well.

ex boyfriends well enough to ask talk to them about her?

I only hear snippets of ex's, nothing to contact any.

[blueback]

Well, why don't you talk to her friends about the way she handles plans with them. If you mention that she's pretty vague and they immediately agree with you then maybe that's just the way she is. If they don't know what you're talking about maybe she's acting differently with you.

Additionally. . .this is back to that "average woman" thing, I suggest you work smarter (and harder). As I see it, women don't tell men what makes them happy. They don't tell them on purpose, it is a strategy. If the man has to put a lot of effort and time into figuring out what makes his woman happy then he must care about her. If the woman just tells him how to make her happy he could keep her happy with littl effort and have a lot of time and energy left over to cheat on her.

So, since she isn't telling you what she wants you to do, you'll have to figure it out. It's okay to guess wrong, she'll let you know. Anytime she gets angry at you but refuses to explain why, that is a moment you should pay attention to. It means that whatever you thought she thought was wrong and she is expecting you to figure it out on your own. Anytime she is just happy for no particular reason, that is a moment you should pay attention to as well. Don't analyze your actions, try to imagine how what you did would have made her feel. You did something right and the faster you can figure out what it was the better.

Women are logical, in the sense that they usually react to the same stimulus with the same response. Just figure out what her triggers are. Keep in mind that she won't sit down with you and explain them, you'll have to work them out for yourself.

[iamnotspock]

My ex cheated when she was "going to the bank." If you really want to know what she's doing, spy on her. But you don't need to. If she's not making time for you, and that's not good enough for you, she's not the right girl for you. End of story.

[blueback]

hahaha. . .well she was making a withdrawl! LOL

[Guido]

I have an ESFP sister, so maybe I can shed a little light on this.

Disclaimer

This isn’t needed for most posts, as all INTJs assume this, but I figured I should mention this. I’ve done the best I can to come up with the most accurate answers possible, but they could be wrong. I don’t know you, your girlfriend, or details of the situation, so this is my best guess. What I’ve written up below, are my opinions and conclusions based on the information you’ve given me. Even if you don't understand them or agree with them, it will at least put you in the right frame of mind to approach the problem when discussing this with your girlfriend. Oh, and this post isn't sugar coated :D

First, a little background on how my sister and I interact:

My background

We've always gotten along very well, but the biggest problem I had with my sister is that she didn't know how to leave me alone. I don't dislike her (she actually thought I did…), and I like hanging around her. But the social clinginess factor was a real problem. I can't stand it when I get called on my phone simply to be asked 'so how are you doing', because it's an utter waste of time.

She'd sometimes call me up after work to talk and I'd say I was with some work buddies having some beers. It really annoys her that I don't invite her, and truth be told I don't really want to. I like the atmosphere and conversation I have with my coworkers, and I wouldn't like it if she was there. When I'm just with my coworkers, I'm winding down. When she's around, I don't get that. It's very draining to have her in a social setting just because she's so social.

To try and put things into perspective for her, I asked her to imagine feeling drained as I described it, and how she would feel if she then went to a party. Naturally being an ESFP, she loved the idea. I told her that every time she felt the urge to go to a party, I felt the need to be alone. Yes, as strange as it sounds, INTJs recharge when they're alone.

Analysis

Ok, now that I've shared some background (it becomes useful later), I'll pick apart your post. Trust is ridiculously important to an INTJ and by the sounds of the "unless I tell you otherwise" line, she trusts you and is asking you to trust her. If she says she feels comfortable around you, that's huge. It shows she really does like you, so I would stop worrying about that. It also shows that she has a lack of understanding of how you work as she seems comfortable enough to halt the social facade that every INTJ masquerades in (yes, you read that right... socializing is very foreign to an INTJ), resulting in her passing out in front of you. This will undoubtedly create a more complex problem further on, which I will get into below.

Also, if you're anything like my sister, (and I mean no offense by this) you probably have a way of twisting the facts when your feelings get involved. So I'm inclined to believe that you feel that she's deceiving you, rather than the way the words are strung together in your post.

The other examples you mentioned seems ok as well. When she says "work was fine" it just means there was nothing she has deemed important to talk about. For an INTJ, anything from fire alarms, employees getting fired, or a mouse running around the office, could easily be cut out. To you, an ESFP, this may seem like something you'd love to tell other people about if this happened at your work, but to an INTJ, we see talking about this stuff as a waste of time.

Her turning off the phone is completely understandable. I sometimes do that for an entire weekend, which can cause my sister to seriously freak out. It's nothing personal; your girlfriend just needs to recharge her batteries.

You said that you have mentioned this to her, but I doubt you did it in the way it needed to be mentioned. This is a difference between the P and J aspect of the personality. For example, if you say “We haven’t had peaches in a long time” and INTJ response to that would be “so what?” However, saying “I want to eat peaches” is a lot more to the point. You are really going to have to spell this one out to her, but I’ll get to that below.

The reason why she is 'deceiving' you as you see it is actually a very simple one. She has absolutely no understanding of how this bothers you. To put this in ESFP perspective, imagine every time she talks to you, she actually wants you to solve a basic algebra problem. This is kind of a silly example, but if she was expecting this of you would have absolutely no understanding why she'd want that let alone even thought about it. She isn't trying to hurt you; she just doesn't understand she is. For an INTJ, the idea of trying to include someone socially is an ESFP equivalent to someone asking you to do some algebra in the middle of a conversation.

So now you may be thinking: "Ok, I just need to explain to her how this actually bothers me, and everything will be peachy". Oh man... it's really not going to be that easy. Doing this will lead to an even more interesting problem (the problem I had with my sister): she will no longer feel comfortable around you. By this, I mean she will feel the need to keep that socializing facade going while she's around you which is very draining. Also, since she'll be constantly scanning her brain for 'should I try and include him in this next social activity' and the like, it’s going to come off to her as clingy. When she forgets or screws up, she’ll then realize you’re hurt and this will frustrate her.

Advice

For the love of God, don’t start spying on her. If she finds out you’ve been asking her friends or exs if she’s been lying to you (or lying in general), it’s really going to hurt her. That’s an ESFP equivalent to her spending a lot of time with another guy and not telling you about it. Also, stop looking for inconsistencies. Looking to see if a relationship is going to fail should always be at the back of your mind, not up at the front. If you are going out of your way to try and show how she’s ‘lying’ to you, you’re going to shoot yourself in the foot. If you continue with that kind of attitude, you will crash and burn. Trust is a fundamental part of any relationship, and possibly the most important aspect to an INTJ (depending on who you ask). The worst thing you can do is approach it like this.

Don’t mention that you were thinking about breaking up with her. This may seem like the ‘honest’ thing to do, but I see this INTJ being heavily hurt by saying such a thing and it will cause her to question (in private naturally) the entire relationship itself. An INTJ who can’t understand an ESFP isn’t going to be able to relate to this.

You’re going to have to talk to her about this, and I would highly recommend leaving emotions out of it. An INTJ will always appreciate level headedness and directness. You’re both introverted feelers, so talking about emotions isn’t going to work out so well. Try to focus more of the facts of the situation and focus really hard on being direct (look at the peaches example.) If you’re making open ended statements, it’s not going to go anywhere. I suggest to try and treat her like a computer with all this. Yes, she is that socially stupid and you will have to painfully spell everything out for her. The best way is to try and get her to recite back to you her understanding of what you’re thinking. Also, if she hasn’t already, she should read the ESFP personality write ups.

Your best solution is to try and compromise. Just as she’ll have to understand your need to socialize with her, you’ll have to understand her need to be alone. I was able to sort this out with my sister, and we get along great now. Communication and understanding will always be tough in a relationship like this. You may not feel emotionally connected with her in the same sense that she won’t feel intellectually connected with you. I’m not saying it can’t work out, I’m just saying it’s going to take work. Just remember; you make as much sense to her as she does to you.

Hope this was of some help :o

[outrider]

As I see it, women don't tell men what makes them happy. They don't tell them on purpose, it is a strategy. If the man has to put a lot of effort and time into figuring out what makes his woman happy then he must care about her. If the woman just tells him how to make her happy he could keep her happy with littl effort and have a lot of time and energy left over to cheat on her.

Well, it's true that when I was younger and had not yet developed the ability to tell a man that he has made me happy (let alone be proactive and tell the poor fellow what would make me happy) I did a very poor job of communicating in relationships. This led to the demise of several relationships with people about whom I cared deeply, most notably a long-term gig with an ENFP.

But that's an INTJ trait, not a female trait. It's just that culturally, it's more acceptable for men to be less expressive than women. You INTJ guys can get away with this design flaw more easily. From time to time, I watch my INTJ business partner go through troubles with the woman he loves. She thinks he's being a cold, unfeeling SOB guy, but he's merely a self-protective INTJ who cares deeply about her and their relationship and is puzzled when he makes her cry (always unintentionally).

For me at least, there was never any strategy, either overt or unconscious. I am genuinely incapable of manipulating anyone in this manner, and don't intend to come across as an enigma. And I can tell if a man has the propensity to cheat and have cut them loose on my terms at the first sign of deception.

My advice to the fellow with the INTJ woman: JUST ASK!!! I'm usually quite flexible and astonished that there is a misunderstanding. Actually, more commonly, I'm relieved that the other person has brought up the subject. I'm acutely sensitive to dissonance, but have difficulty asking because I fear an emotional confrontation.

In this way I'm similar to one of my close female friends, an ENTJ. When she has staff meetings, she complains that she has to wipe herself down with Purell afterwards to remove slobber from weeping employees. I find those phone calls hysterically funny, and I remind her there's a reason I have minimal staff...

[Lucid]

Good post Guido.

MD
I have to agree that you absolutely SHOULD NOT spy on her. If she finds out about it she will probably take it as a huge violation of her trust, an invasion of her privacy and find it borderline creepy. Speaking as an INTJ female, if I found out a boyfriend was spying on me I'd probably be angry enough to leave him.
Like several posters have mentioned, your best bet (it seems to me) is to just talk to her about your concerns. Like Guido mentioned, there will probably be some compromise required. You will have to understand that she needs space, she will have to understand you don't.

I have to say that when I first read your post my reaction was "So... what's she doing wrong?" Although I do see why you had a problem with her vagueness and differing explanations of her Thursday night plans. It is possible that she's being dishonest with you about what's going on and you should talk to her about it and tell her your concerns to allow her to respond to them. It's also possible that the plans changed several times and she neglected to tell you explicitly that there was a change, assuming that you'd figure it out from the fact that she was telling you something different. It could also be that the plans were vague from the start or even that she forgot what was going on or was confused about it herself.
You should just ask her. The best way to communicate with an INTJ regarding relationships is to spell it out for us. Speak slowly so we can try to follow what you're saying. F

Some of the inconsistencies you mention do seem weird, but there's lots of room for interpretation on anything you mentioned. Saying that work was "fine, the usual" doesn't seem strange to me in the least. If I'm tired and have had a long day at work or just don't feel like talking about work I would probably respond the same way, even if something mildly interesting had happened.

From your post, it seems like you're uncomfortable with her interaction with other males when that interaction isn't described to you explicitly, in detail, leaving out nothing. If I take a guy friend home and hang out there for awhile I'll probably describe the event as "I took John home after the bar." Not, "I took John home after the bar and then we hung out there and played with the magnetic poetry on his fridge." My thinking is who cares about those little details? You need to trust her or a relationship isn't going to work. It's fair to ask her what's going on, it's fair to tell her why these things are an issue for you and to ask her for cooperation or a compromise or even just understanding. But you can't expect her to read your mind. Or just "know" what's acceptable for most people in a relationship.
The fact that she told you that she cares about you and wants to be with you no matter what you see, suggests to me that she's had these kinds of problems before and is trying to make you feel comfortable and reassure you in the face of her INTJ-ness.

But, like others have said, I don't know either of you so it is possible that she is being deceptive. However, I can certainly see how it might just be a problem with communication styles and differing expectations about the relationship.

I'm learning about the ESFP mentality regarding relationships from your posts and about how things I do might be interpreted by some people. Please feel free to post more about your impressions of her behavior and also to up date us as to how this all turns out.

But that's an INTJ trait, not a female trait. It's just that culturally, it's more acceptable for men to be less expressive than women. You INTJ guys can get away with this design flaw more easily. From time to time, I watch my INTJ business partner go through troubles with the woman he loves. She thinks he's being a cold, unfeeling SOB guy, but he's merely a self-protective INTJ who cares deeply about her and their relationship and is puzzled when he makes her cry (always unintentionally).

My advice to the fellow with the INTJ woman: JUST ASK!!! I'm usually quite flexible and astonished that there is a misunderstanding. Actually, more commonly, I'm relieved that the other person has brought up the subject. I'm acutely sensitive to dissonance, but have difficulty asking because I fear an emotional confrontation.

I completely agree. Often when someone brings something up that they're concerned about I'm astonished to find that my behavior was a problem and I'm usually happy to make certain changes to accommodate the other party if possible.

[md21017md]

Lucid, i gues sI have been somewhat vague, guess trying to be somewhat annonomyous. There have been a lot of incidents, some small like above and some larger. One in particular, a guy she worked with was already what I considered someone to watch. She and I were talking one night, and she asks me what I would think if she asked him to move in as a room mate. This is a guy as I said, I felt was on the watch list, and she and I just a few weeks prior had a discussion where she said she could never have a room mate. When I questioned her, and said can you see how this looks to me? Her reply was something to the effect she could use the extra cash, and he was the only person she though she could tolerate as a room mate.

Given the INTJ's need for space and down time and the no roomie comment it really hit me wrong, and has pretty much set suspicion on edge. There have been a couple other events as significant, and her response is pretty much "you are so insecure, I told you i don't want anyone else blah blah blah".





md21017md added to this post, 1 minutes and 41 seconds later...

Guido, Thanks for the inciteful post!!! But, god you people are a lot of work. So let me respond to some of your post.

I can't stand it when I get called on my phone simply to be asked 'so how are you doing', because it's an utter waste of time.

How is catching up an utter waste of time? How can you possibly maintain a relationship with out having a relationship?

Naturally being an ESFP, she loved the idea. I told her that every time she felt the urge to go to a party, I felt the need to be alone. Yes, as strange as it sounds, INTJs recharge when they're alone.

I understand this concept though I really can't understand it. Thing is, I give her her space to recharge, but, I don't really get my time to recharge. Well I do, she'll say " you should go out", thing I really want her there with me. And while it is nice to have the freedom to do this - something that I didn't have married which killed the marriage - I would like to spend time out with her. After the initial "honeymoon period" most of the relationship now is show up after work, make dinner together, and eat watching a movie, don't talk too much, maybe have sex, maybe not, and bed by 9 or 10, up at 5 gym and work. This is as draining on me - no social lie per se as it would be to drag you intj's around to a party every night for 2 weeks. I've been doing this all winter.

It also shows that she has a lack of understanding of how you work as she seems comfortable enough to halt the social facade that every INTJ masquerades in (yes, you read that right... socializing is very foreign to an INTJ),

Maybe but she socializes quite well when out. I've taken her to a bar, and she can chat up the guy sitting beside us to no end, more so than she had me in weeks. It's things like that which cause issues for me.

Also, if you're anything like my sister, (and I mean no offense by this) you probably have a way of twisting the facts when your feelings get involved.

None taken, and you are quite right. If you give me vague dialog, my mind is going to fill int he blanks. If you want me to have an accurate impression, then give me accurate info. No different than me wanting you to solve the algebra problem and only giving you half of it, then telling you to figure it out.


So I'm inclined to believe that you feel that she's deceiving you

Yes, that is how it comes accross, especially when you've added other things in there that have happened.

When she says "work was fine" it just means there was nothing she has deemed important to talk about. For an INTJ, anything from fire alarms, employees getting fired, or a mouse running around the office, could easily be cut out.

Ok, I can understand this, but at the same time, when I ask how was work, she says fine, the usual or what ever, then I find out she spent the day riding around town with a guy that was already on radar, well it comes accross as deceptive.

So now you may be thinking: "Ok, I just need to explain to her how this actually bothers me, and everything will be peachy". Oh man... it's really not going to be that easy. Doing this will lead to an even more interesting problem (the problem I had with my sister)

How funny, that was my immediate thought. Again, you guys are a lot of friggin work. Here is an issue that is a major problem between us, but I can't talk to her about it or risk pushing her away. How the hell are you supposed to solve a problem if you don't discuss it?

Also, stop looking for inconsistencies. Looking to see if a relationship is going to fail should always be at the back of your mind, not up at the front.

I am not looking, they just keep jumping up int front of me.

[Lucid]

Lucid, i gues sI have been somewhat vague, guess trying to be somewhat annonomyous. There have been a lot of incidents, some small like above and some larger. One in particular, a guy she worked with was already what I considered someone to watch. She and I were talking one night, and she asks me what I would think if she asked him to move in as a room mate. This is a guy as I said, I felt was on the watch list, and she and I just a few weeks prior had a discussion where she said she could never have a room mate. When I questioned her, and said can you see how this looks to me? Her reply was something to the effect she could use the extra cash, and he was the only person she though she could tolerate as a room mate.

Given the INTJ's need for space and down time and the no roomie comment it really hit me wrong, and has pretty much set suspicion on edge. There have been a couple other events as significant, and her response is pretty much "you are so insecure, I told you i don't want anyone else blah blah blah".

Again, I'm my initial response is "what's the problem exactly?" Does she know that you considered this guy to be someone to keep your eye on?
Personally, my feelings about roommates is that I don't want one and am not sure if it would work out. However, I have in the past had to sacrifice my personal space and preference for living alone for economic reasons by taking a roommate. When this has happened the list of possible roommates is pretty small since there are so few people I think I could live with without at some point losing my patience with them and smothering them in their sleep :)
It's entirely possible that this guy IS trying to move in on your girl and is using the roommate ploy to do so. But she may not be aware of this. Most INTJs, my self included, are pretty blind to it when someone we know is interested in us.

Her response that you're insecure and she's already made her feelings for you clear doesn't strike me as strange either. She probably honestly feels that way. I have to tell you, I have a lot of male friends (it seems that most INTJ women do) and it has sometimes been a problem with men I'm dating. Unfortunately, if it's a problem and they feel insecure about it the relationship doesn't usually last. I get along very well with men in a platonic sense and I'm not willing to give up my friends just to soothe some boyfriend's ego or insecurities. I try to be understanding of those insecurities, since it seems that many people don't have friends of the opposite gender the way I do, but since they are only friends to me and the realization that it might be a problem is purely an academic one for me I may not do a great job of it.

It sounds like this is a serious issue for you and that, at the moment at least, neither of you is doing the compromising that will be needed to make this relationship work. Nor are either of you working to understand one another the you probably need to be. You have turned to an internet community of strangers for help with this problem. And while I think everyone here is happy to give you what advice and insight they can, none of us can really help you the way it seems
you need because we don't know you or her. The person you should be talking to is your girlfriend. If you don't feel that past efforts at communication have been met with success or even met with a willingness to listen to your concerns, that in itself is an issue that you should see if you can address.
If she is unwilling to address that issue or do more than dismiss your concerns as insecurities and insist that she's already done all she should be required to do to make you feel comfortable.... I hate to say it, but maybe this isn't the right relationship for either of you.
Both parties have to be willing to actually listen to each other and to do a certain amount of compromising for a relationship to work (as I'm sure you know). Both need to put effort into understanding the other.

[md21017md]

Again, I'm my initial response is "what's the problem exactly?" Does she know that you considered this guy to be someone to keep your eye on?

I guess the problem is my g/f wanting another guy to move in with her.


It sounds like this is a serious issue for you and that, at the moment at least, neither of you is doing the compromising that will be needed to make this relationship work. Nor are either of you working to understand one another the you probably need to be. You have turned to an internet community of strangers for help with this problem. And while I think everyone here is happy to give you what advice and insight they can, none of us can really help you the way it seems
you need because we don't know you or her. The person you should be talking to is your girlfriend. If you don't feel that past efforts at communication have been met with success or even met with a willingness to listen to your concerns, that in itself is an issue that you should see if you can address.
If she is unwilling to address that issue or do more than dismiss your concerns as insecurities and insist that she's already done all she should be required to do to make you feel comfortable.... I hate to say it, but maybe this isn't the right relationship for either of you.
Both parties have to be willing to actually listen to each other and to do a certain amount of compromising for a relationship to work (as I'm sure you know). Both need to put effort into understanding the other.

And I guess that is the conclusion I reached.





md21017md added to this post, 0 minutes and 55 seconds later...

I suggest to try and treat her like a computer with all this. Yes, she is that socially stupid and you will have to painfully spell everything out for her.

This much I've figured out, albeit the hard way, and she has admitted that she's a poor communicator.





md21017md added to this post, 18 minutes and 6 seconds later...

"I have to tell you, I have a lot of male friends (it seems that most INTJ women do) and it has sometimes been a problem with men I'm dating. Unfortunately, if it's a problem and they feel insecure about it the relationship doesn't usually last. I get along very well with men in a platonic sense and I'm not willing to give up my friends just to soothe some boyfriend's ego or insecurities. I try to be understanding of those insecurities, since it seems that many people don't have friends of the opposite gender the way I do, but since they are only friends to me and the realization that it might be a problem is purely an academic one for me I may not do a great job of it.'

Yes, she has a lot of guy friends, and I am not asking her to give them up. This may start a flame war, but oh well. Most guys in my experiance, if they are friends with a woman they find attractive will at some point in time want to sleep with her. This may not actually happen, it might only happen when the right set of circumstances play out (which is why I say it may never happen, the circumstances mey never happen). But, from what I've seen, most (most means not all guys) the will is there and all it takes is the opportunity, and maybe a few drinks, a fight with the S/O or something to set it in motion. No I am not asking her to give up guy friends, but I am wary, and I think she (and maybe intj's in general) is naive to this fact to the point of the potential to wake up the next day, look over and say "oh shit what did I do"





md21017md added to this post, 1 minutes and 8 seconds later...

"I can't stand it when I get called on my phone simply to be asked 'so how are you doing', because it's an utter waste of time."

How is catching up an utter waste of time? How can you possibly maintain a relationship with out having a relationship?

[PortInStorm]

Now I think you're being harsh- she may be bad at communicating with YOU, but trouble communicating with one person does not a bad communicator make.

I have a hard time getting across ideas to my husband, but at school, friends and I jump around ideas no problem. Likewise, he can't get the frivolity going with me that he does with his mom and other family members.

[Lucid]

I guess the problem is my g/f wanting another guy to move in with her.

But she asked you how you'd feel about it. This indicates to me that she wants to make you feel comfortable in the relationship. If you expressed displeasure at the idea did she continue with her plans of moving in with this guy?
It sounds like the problem is less about type than it is about your comfort level with your girlfriend having other men in her life. I'm not saying that you're wrong for feeling the way you do, but I think it needs to be acknowledged.
Why does it bother you that she would choose a male friend as a roommate? If you believe her that she doesn't want to be with anyone but you, why is this a problem? If you don't believe her about that, then why are you dating her? What does she need to do to make you feel comfortable in the relationship? Specifically, what do you want to see her change about her behavior towards you and towards her male friends?

Yes, she has a lot of guy friends, and I am not asking her to give them up. This may start a flame war, but oh well. Most guys in my experience, if they are friends with a woman they find attractive will at some point in time want to sleep with her. This may not actually happen, it might only happen when the right set of circumstances play out (which is why I say it may never happen, the circumstances mey never happen). But, from what I've seen, most (most means not all guys) the will is there and all it takes is the opportunity, and maybe a few drinks, a fight with the S/O or something to set it in motion. No I am not asking her to give up guy friends, but I am wary, and I think she (and maybe intj's in general) is naive to this fact to the point of the potential to wake up the next day, look over and say "oh shit what did I do"

It may be correct that most men are friends with a female they find attractive so that they might be able to sleep with her at some point, should the opportunity ever present itself.
But what does this have to do with your relationship? What matters is not how the men in her life feel about her, or what they want out of their friendship with her. What matters is what she wants and what she will decide to do. If it makes you uncomfortable for your girlfriend to be around people who might consider her attractive, you need to look at the level of trust you have for her. Because just because someone finds her attractive or puts the moves on her doesn't mean she's going to respond by sleeping with them. Or anything else. Especially if she's in a relationship with someone she likes and respects.
I'm not saying that she wouldn't do something with one of her male friends, or that she's completely closed to the idea (like I said, I don't know her or you or the guy friends), but you have to realize that she's responsible for her decisions and her actions, not you, not her guy friends. So the person you have to trust is her, not her guy friends.


How is catching up an utter waste of time? How can you possibly maintain a relationship with out having a relationship?

Ok, listen. With respect, you came on here asking for advice about how INTJs see thing and how we think in the hopes of better understanding your girlfriend. The response you quoted about talking on the phone is an attempt to explain it to you and it seems like you're arguing with it. You don't have to agree with the way we think, or with our preferences, but if you're unwilling to take the comment about casual phone chatting being a waste of time for what it is (an explanation of why we might not always want to talk on the phone), I don't think you're going to get anything out of this.
That may be the root of the problem actually. Your posts are really giving the impression that you think any kind of thought process that's different from yours is wrong. Your girlfriend sees things differently from you and has a different way of approaching things than you do. While I admire your desire to learn about this difference, at the end of the day, you seem unwilling to accept its validity. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting a deep desire to fully understand on your part as argumentative, but trying to tell us that we're wrong about how we think isn't going to do anybody any good.

To address your question; to an INTJ (at least to me and it seems like to most of the INTJs who post on this forum) having conversations like, "so what did you do today? I like ice cream. Did you see what she was wearing last night?" isn't what makes a relationship a relationship.

[md21017md]

"If you don't believe her about that, then why are you dating her? What does she need to do to make you feel comfortable in the relationship? Specifically, what do you want to see her change about her behavior towards you and towards her male friends? "

I wish I had a specific answer. Maybe just the perceived notion that she is evasive by not providing information. It comes accross as hiding something. Based on other posts on here, I am not the onlyone dating an INTJ that feels this.

"Ok, listen. With respect, you came on here asking for advice about how INTJs see thing and how we think in the hopes of better understanding your girlfriend. The response you quoted about talking on the phone is an attempt to explain it to you and it seems like you're arguing with it. You don't have to agree with the way we think, or with our preferences, but if you're unwilling to take the comment about casual phone chatting being a waste of time for what it is (an explanation of why we might not always want to talk on the phone), I don't think you're going to get anything out of this.
"

I am not arguing with it, I am trying to understand.

"Your posts are really giving the impression that you think any kind of thought process that's different from yours is wrong. "

Maybe, but that is human nature. For example INTJ's and public display of affection? Need I say more?

"While I admire your desire to learn about this difference, at the end of the day, you seem unwilling to accept its validity."

I am more than willing to accept it, I just don't understand it enough to do so at this point.

As to the guy friend comments I agree, but again for me, if you want to be trusted you don't incite doubt. Putting your self in questionable situations then being vague about the details does nothing to build trust.

[Lucid]

I wish I had a specific answer. Maybe just the perceived notion that she is evasive by not providing information. It comes accross as hiding something. Based on other posts on here, I am not the onlyone dating an INTJ that feels this.

No, and I don't mean for you to think that you're entirely in the wrong (or even a little in the wrong). But I think you need to decide what you need from her to make you feel comfortable in the relationship and what she needs to do to earn your trust. Once you have done this, tell her what those things are (specifically, not vaguely) and see if she can or is willing to change her behavior to accommodate you.

I am not arguing with it, I am trying to understand.... I am more than willing to accept it, I just don't understand it enough to do so at this point.

Ok, I apologize for the misunderstanding. It's an inevitability of internet communication.
And not understanding it enough to be able to accept it is certainly fair.
However, I would suggest that one doesn't necessarily have to understand something to accept it. If understanding is something that you personally need in order to grant acceptance, I think this might be a problem. You may never understand the INTJ thought process, just as many of us may never understand yours. I'm not saying that such understanding is impossible, but in some situations and for some individuals it may be.

Is there anything about the INTJ thought process you think we might be able to help explain a bit better?

Maybe, but that is human nature. For example INTJ's and public display of affection? Need I say more?

You might.... I'm a little unclear on this, but I think you're trying to say that INTJs don't accept displays of public affection as valid because many of us don't personally like them or understand them.
I think it's important to keep in mind that not all INTJs will react the same way to everything. For example, I have no problem with public displays of affection. However, my INTJ ex-boyfriend does. But just because he doesn't like them doesn't mean that he can't accept that it's ok for other people to like them and to engage in activity like that.

As to the guy friend comments I agree, but again for me, if you want to be trusted you don't incite doubt. Putting your self in questionable situations then being vague about the details does nothing to build trust.

Then you need to tell her this. If you have (in no uncertain terms) and she has only responded to you by saying that you're too insecure and she's already taken all the steps she should need to in order to make you feel comfortable in the relationship, then you have another set of problems altogether. Obviously you are willing to do what you can to try to understand her perspective. She needs to be able to do the same for you. If she's not then no amount of help or advice gained from the people on this forum is going to do any good whatsoever.

However, I hope that this is not the case and I think that any reasonable person would realize that a relationship requires work from both parties involved. Also, as you probably know, most INTJs are willing to do a lot of work to maintain and improve a relationship with someone they care about and genuinely want to be with.

[blueback]

Maybe it will help if you think of INTJs as the ultimate individualists.

I don't know your girlfriend, but if she really is an INTJ like me then she takes her own conclusions very seriously. She might love you more than anything else in the world, but she still loves herself more. At the end of the day, if an INTJ doesn't think they're getting what they want/need out of a relationship they will cut ties and walk away forever.

So, again I don't know her, she could easily be thinking of your current relationship as a probationary thing. I've had best friends I knew for years suddenly do something that caused me to completely reevaluate them. It only takes one or two events like that for an INTJ to extend the probationary period of new relationships indefinitely. What I mean is; she probably thinks of you as temporary. It's just impossible for people as logical as INTJs to not understand that the odds are against any one particular relationship lasting forever, so we intuitively understand that it PROBABLY will end. That means that she is probably trying hard to love you for your flaws (what she sees as flaws) but is willing to walk away if you step too far out of line.

We're just too individualist. Ultimately, at the back of our mind, we know we are capable of ending any relationship, no matter how close it may be, if we decide we need to.


So, by way of advice, I think you need to engage her on an intellectual level. Your MBTI type and your posts indicate that you enjoy social interactions and all the things that go with them. That stuff is not intellectual. Someone once said that great minds talk about ideas and small minds talk about people, well, INTJs agree with that.

If she is a true INTJ then she wants to talk about theories. She wants you to talk about ideas, hypotheses, connections, and let her talk about them too. However, that doesn't mean she wants to talk. When there is no more information to exchange the conversation is over. You probably want to just talk because that is how you feel connected to her. She wants to communicate substantive information because that is how she feels connected to you.

To you, feelings have value, so if she exchanges feelings with you she adds value to your life. For her, knowledge has value, so if you exchange knowledge with her you add value to her life. If you don't add value to her life she will lump you in with "everyone else" and forget about you.



So, the two of you have a problem. One only likes chinese and the other only likes hamburgers. I don't think there is any way for you to prepare a chinese hamburger, so you're going to have to compromise. You need to make it clear to her that what you value isn't necessarily what she values, but that you understand what she values. The communication thing, the subtle thing, is what's going to drive the two of you apart. You're going to have to pay very close attention to it and you're going to have to get her to do the same.

[md21017md]

Ok, I apologize for the misunderstanding. It's an inevitability of internet communication.

None needed and yes it is, hell in person is bad enough sometimes.

You might.... I'm a little unclear on this, but I think you're trying to say that INTJs don't accept displays of public affection as valid because many of us don't personally like them or understand them.

More or less yes, or the needless phone call. Others consider them important dating and social requirements - a differing opinion to most INTJ's.

Is there anything about the INTJ thought process you think we might be able to help explain a bit better?

You've given me a wealth up to this point.

Then you need to tell her this. If you have (in no uncertain terms) and she has only responded to you by saying that you're too insecure

This is pretty much where we are, and it seems like she feels that since she gave me her promise of trust that she should now be able to do anything she wants and I should blindly trust her.

[Lucid]

This is pretty much where we are, and it seems like she feels that since she gave me her promise of trust that she should now be able to do anything she wants and I should blindly trust her.

Trust has to be earned. She may feel like she's done everything a reasonable person would require to earn your trust however. I'm not sure if that's the case or not, since I don't know anything about the situation, but it seems possible. I'd say that you guys need to talk about that trust issue.

Good luck, I hope it works out for you both. Keep us posted. :)

[PortInStorm]

What she seems to be saying is just about the only way I can have a relationship. Yes, I do have to be able to do just about anything I want and yes, you have to blindly trust me because I'm sure as crap not going to have a leash on me, have you spying, or keep you posted on everything I do.

[Tual]

I have to agree with all the above posters, if I trust my partner (which takes some doing) then I just assume I have made it clear I am also to be trusted. I'll basically do what I want and need to do without the idea that my girlfriend might be looking for clues of my infidelity (just to be clear, I wouldn't be cheating). However if I constantly feel smothered or someone tries to control me I'll cut of the relationship and walk away without looking back. I know I will not be happy with that person in the long run so why bother?

To come back to your situation, if she is anything like me she will end a relationship with you before doing anything with another guy. As far as the chance that she will end the relationship: she will if she sees no future, so it's up to the both of you to make sure there is one and if not.... why bother?

Regarding the phonecalls you might want to check the thread in general psychology about missing people.

[Llen]

After reading through this thread, md21017md, your situation seems rather evident to me: the problem lies in your perception of the situation. If one assumes that each party (i.e. yourself and your girlfriend) is neither completely right nor wrong in this situation, then the issue stems from communication and perception of grievances. This point has been reiterated and commented on by Blueback, Lucid, 2ndtimestudent and Lordrrr.

Given your previous statement:
This is pretty much where we are, and it seems like she feels that since she gave me her promise of trust that she should now be able to do anything she wants and I should blindly trust her.

I can only assume that your “victim” mentality will persist until someone on this board justifies your thought process and not your girlfriend’s. Assuming that you and your girlfriend are over the age of consent in your country, you are both adults. Being an adult, your girlfriend is entitled to do whatever she wants within the legal boundaries of the law.

However, if your girlfriend even moderately follows the psychological characteristics of an INTJ, then know that “anything she wants” is tightly constricted and highly followed by her own personal standards/boundaries. Thus, if she only wants you then she will not stray, despite your perception of her actions, because she deemed others as “unworthy of the effort” a long time ago.

Keep in mind however that your previous comment could be perceived by an INTJ as controlling, unreasonable, unduly skeptical and needy. If you have made similar comments in the past, then she may have perceived your actions as such and deemed you “unworthy” as a result. In any case, if you have not done so already, please cease your lamentations on this thread and address the issue with her directly. Should either one of you determine that it is not worth the effort to accommodate or accede to the other in some fashion, consider the issue *dropped* and the relationship *over.*

[md21017md]

"I'll basically do what I want and need to do without the idea that my girlfriend might be looking for clues of my infidelity (just to be clear, I wouldn't be cheating). "

Ok, lets clarify something. I didn't start looking and wouldn't have had I not seen things to make me look. One can not do things in a relationship to create doubt and brush it off with "I love you trust me". As my grand mother told me - actions speak louder than words.

[Aoiluna]

Sounds like she just likes to keep to her own. I hate going into details of things. I'm not free Thursday, leave it at that. I don't need to tell you it's because I have to coach swimming lessons, because then you'll say something irrelevant like "You coach SWIMMING lessons? OMG tell me more!" and then I have to go into detail of the little brat with the nappy hair and how he wets himself before even touching the water he's so nervous and he's already 10 freakin years old, which I don't want to do because I know you're going to respond with "OMG I HATE kids like that haha. So while we're on topic-". Before I know it, I'm trapped in a SMALL TALK CONVERSATION (ugh!) and can't get out without appearing rude and unethical.

Don't question her on trivial details, if you want her to open up about details, don't question her once she tells you them. This sort of thing is something I wish my mom would understand about me because I end up hurting her feelings, which I don't want to do, I just don't want to waste my time with a petty small talk conversation.



Hoped this helped you bro!


I can relate to this and personally think that this is good advice.

[outrider]

I think that any reasonable person would realize that a relationship requires work from both parties involved. Also, as you probably know, most INTJs are willing to do a lot of work to maintain and improve a relationship with someone they care about and genuinely want to be with.

Most definitely true. Relationships require work to maintain optimal function, or, as my ISFP boyfriend says in terms md21017md (ESFP) might relate to more easily, they require practice to get things right.





outrider added to this post, 32 minutes and 40 seconds later...

She might love you more than anything else in the world, but she still loves herself more.

I don't necessarily agree with this statement for all INTJs, though it may be true in this case (never having met this woman, I can't say for sure).

At the end of the day, if an INTJ doesn't think they're getting what they want/need out of a relationship they will cut ties and walk away forever.

But I agree with this.

It's just impossible for people as logical as INTJs to not understand that the odds are against any one particular relationship lasting forever, so we intuitively understand that it PROBABLY will end.

Sure, but I'd argue that INTJs are also highly likely to increase the odds for relationship success by putting in the time necessary for maintenance if the relationship is worthwhile. It's just so difficult to start over with a new person. I, personally, have spent long stretches alone because that is preferable to the stress and time wastage associated with dating.

So, by way of advice, I think you need to engage her on an intellectual level...Someone once said that great minds talk about ideas and small minds talk about people, well, INTJs agree with that..

Actually, my ISFP boyfriend and I were discussing this very quote a few weeks ago, which I recall as: great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about everyday events, and small minds talk about other people.

I agree totally that intellectual involvement is necessary for the INTJ female - and it is so uncommon coming from most men that this tends to make us take notice.

One of the things I really appreciate about my boyfriend is his curiosity about ideas and his willingness to discuss them with me. He's well read and loans me books that explain what interests him. I feel close to him when we discuss our thoughts, and he puts a new spin on concepts I thought I had explored from all directions.

[Nanashi]

Maybe she is trying to guard her time against feeling obligated to spend it with you. I do that a lot. I like to plan things that are months away but I don't like to plan things that are a couple days away, especially not socail things, because I don't know whether or not I'm going to want to do it later.

I just like a lot of private time, more than the average, and most people interpret that as some sort of insult. So, I make things up all the time that are a plausible reason why I CAN'T spend time with them when really I just don't WAN'T to. Maybe the two of you should have a very long, very frank discussion about how much of each other's time you are comfortable with.

If she's exhausted when she goes out with you but is energized when she goes out with her friends then you are doing something wrong. Unless she takes you home and makes passionate love to you or something, there could be context I'm missing. Ask her friends what she likes to do.



Basically, whatever else I said, women are flaky. I haven't known any INTJ women in person but I doubt they are very much different. All women like to do whatever they feel like at the moment; INTJ women are probably just better at rationalizing it. (I'm probably gonna get flammed for this)


Yeah, you are going to get flamed b/c you deserve it.

You don't like to do things when you don't feel like it , but a woman doesn't like to do things when she doesn't feel like itb/c she is a woman? Are you, then, a woman also b/c you don't like to do things when you'd rather do something else? WTH?

[Frag]

OP really doesn't want an INTJ gal (ie, any person with their own life) - every post conveys a need for exactly the things he *won't* get there.

I see threads like this and always wonder - do people just jump in the sack and try to stick with whoever is the most fun? Do they "know" each other at all?

[moomoo]

i'm an INTJ female and had been dating for the past 5 years. once i read your post i realise that i have the same characteristic and it really really do drives my boyfriends crazy. Anyway i just want to let you know something i learn. You must really really really trust your girlfriend and never question her on her action. Cause if you do you would start a fight. trust is really important (at least to me). and it is darn true about the saying i love you endlessly untill i say it is over. So at the "loving" time do trust her even though you feel like she is cheating behind your back. confrontation would not help a single bit.
As for date.. lol. i always do the same thing to my bf but he found a way to counter to it. when i said that i do not want to go out say on friday because my assignment are due on monday or so on so forth. keep the time that i had said to be busy free cause eveytime at the end of the day i would eventually call him out. so eventhough she said she is busy just keep the day free for her.
another thing would be when she don feel like talking and just say is "as usual" just leave the conversation as it is. it might be she doesn't want to talk about it or she need time to recharge herself thats all. Try coming up with argumentative statement and i can assure you both of you can argue till morning. she will feel so alert by sitting down thinking and argue her point against yours.
hope it helps you

[ScurvyRose]

You have a watch list?? Seriously?! There are major trust issues if you have a watch list! What made you mark her male coworker as a certified member of this list? Have you told her this?

Do you have any idea how she will interpret this list? You do not trust her. Period. It does not matter how many times you say it is the GUY you question, it all comes down to not trusting her.

We may not be able to articulate what an issue is with our mate, but we know when it is there. She may be forming her responses to your inquiries in a way that she hopes this insecurity of yours would not be stoked.

The absolute worst thing to loose in a relationship is trust. It can never be regained.

Decide. Do you trust her or not? Yes, then let it go and work on a better communication style. If no, then you are just putting yourself through prolonged agony while the relationship slowly dies.

[Sean O]

Earlier you said that she gets tired when she's with you at around 9 or 10pm, but can stay up past midnight with her friends. My question is: how much time has she usually spent with you by 9-10pm, compared to how long she has spent with her friends by midnight? If the two of you usually meet earlier in the day than she usually meets her friends, then she will have spent the same amount of time with you at 10pm as she would with her friends at midnight.

Why is this significant? Spending time with people makes INTJs tired. Granted, being around an interesting person will allow us to remain energized for longer, but invariably we will get tired simply from human interaction itself.

[Indestructible]

A. Logically speaking, she NEVER CONTRADICTED HERSELF:

1] When you asked her whether she wants to go out to a dinner with you - she HONESTLY said she cannot do THAT specific event with you = because she has something else to do THAT NIGHT.
But she NEVER SAID THAT YOU can't come with HER to HER planned event/dinner.
You just never asked whether you can or not.
Therefore, she logically deducted that you are not interested in going.

2] Later in the week, since you talked so much about this supposed event, she logically arrived at the conclusion that you ARE interested.
So she invited you.
So when, on Thursday afternoon, you had a phone conversation, and she told you that you are welcome to come along - it might have been a surprise TO YOU - yet it was NOT A LOGICAL CONTRADICTION on her part.
She explicitly stated previously that she:
1] cannot come with YOU to YOUR dinner,
2] but she never said that YOU cannot come with her to HER dinner with HER co-workers.
So, in her mind, the fact that she refused to go out with YOU on THURSDAY night to SOME restaurant DID NOT AUTOMATICALLY NEGATE THE FACT THAT YOU CAN STILL HANG OUT WITH HER and her colleagues at ANOTHER RESTAURANT DURING THE PRE-PLANNED EVENT.
Get it?
She is LOGICAL to the BONE.
INTJs take everything literally.
Deal with it.

B. When you try to pressure her and find out more about her PRIVATE life, she feels like you are INTRUDING and TRYING TO MANIPULATE HER. Stop trying to get into her head. You won't survive 5 minutes there. Our brains are just too complex and logical at the same time, while you place too much importance on FEELINGS. Yes, we INTJ's RESERVE A RIGHT TO PRIVATE HEAD-SPACE, even if we are in a relationship with you. We do not feel the need to share every little thing, feeling, thought with you on our own accord.

Also, this brings up an important point in my mind: Did you guys EVER DISCUSS THE TERMS OF YOUR RELATIONSHIP? I.e. Did you two EVER SPECIFICALLY SIT DOWN and SAY TO EACH OTHER EXPLICITLY that having sex with someone else other than your partner means NEGATING the RELATIONSHIP?

Just because you assume you two are monogamous, doesn't mean she does. Society says that if two people are dating, they MUST be monogamous by default. But INTJ's have their own mind. They do not necessarily listen to what society says. We are very independent.

If you two NEVER DISCUSSED this, and if you JUST ASSUMED she is MONOGAMOUS WITH YOU, she will feel betrayed if you accuse her of cheating [even if she is - by your definition or by society's definition]. Because, LOGICALLY, you NEVER SET THOSE BOUNDARIES to start with.

Based on WHAT LOGICAL REASONING can you assume that SHE "KNOWS" IT WOULD HURT YOU IF SHE sleeps with someone else IF YOU NEVER GAVE HER SYSTEM THAT INFO IN THE FIRST PLACE? DUH! So, in her mind, kissing someone else [or sleeping with someone else] does NOT EQUAL BETRAYAL OF TRUST. As if would be to you. It's just you two never established:
1] what exactly you two consider "A BETRAYAL OF TRUST", and
2] how exactly it would affect your relationship with her if she ever does.

To you - BEING MONOGAMOUS = equals LOVE. To HER it might be her TRUST to give you enough FREEDOM equals LOVE. AND when you infringe upon that FREEDOM, she feels CONFINED = read: BETRAYED and UN-LOVED. Just like YOU would feel BETRAYED & UN-LOVED if she had sex with someone else.

So: if definitions of LOVE in you two vary, you basically need to sit down with her and draw up a kind of a social contract where you BOTH BECOME CLEAR ON DEFINITIONS AS TO WHAT CONSTITUTES LOVE. Where all the boundaries are established. And what constitutes a VIOLATION OF LOVE - to you and to her. Her mind is like a computer: It needs A SPECIFIC INFO INPUT. GENERALITIES DO NOT APPLY.

UNLESS YOU ASK DIRECTLY - you will never know.
If you try to WRESTLE things out of us BY HINTS - we feel backed into a corner and MANIPULATED.
Instead, just come out and say: HONEY, I feel like lately I can't trust you - ARE YOU CHEATING ON ME WITH CHARLES/BOB/CLIENT?
If she is, she will say: "YES, I am cheating on you. But I still love you"
If she is not, she will say: "NO, I am not cheating on you. I still love you"

It really IS that simple. We do not stay in a relationship if we do not love a person.
We can cheat for physical reasons and be honest about it - if asked directly.
Yet, that doesn't mean we do not love you.
Physical closeness has NOTHING TO DO WITH LOVE.
She will STILL HAVE YOUR BACK if you get fired, or if you get sick, or go to prison - that is what love is to us = LOYALTY against LIFE's TURMOILS.
Sex is just sex.
Do not take it PERSONALLY if she does it with someone else.
Love, on the other hand, means facing life TOGETHER and HAVING total trust in each other, and BEING ABLE TO RELY on the other person in times of turmoil.
"Cheating" to an INTJ is defined not as "having sex with someone else other than your partner", but as "Placing more trust in someone other than your partner, and SUPPORTING someone more than you support your partner - on all levels". Get it?

To INTJ's closeness is achieved BY TRUST GIVEN, and NOT by sharing emotions verbally, and NOT by sharing physical closeness.
When you do not TRUST her, and try to WRESTLE INFO out of her, she FEELS BETRAYED & UNLOVED = because she FEELS UN-TRUSTED.
That is why she retreats, and doesn't give you a straight answer.

C. As far as Bob vs. client confusion is concerned, it might be that BOTH, Bob AND Client were supposed to be present at dinner.
But later, maybe plans have changed, and the client decided not to come.
So that just left the co-workers.
Just because she omitted the fact that the client changed his mind (or couldn't fly in that day, or something) does not negate the fact that Bob was still going to be present. YOU JUST NEVER ASKED.
So, she NEVER LIED.
She told you the truth.
YOU just never ASKED THE DETAILS.
Both Bob and the Client were supposed to be coming to that dinner INITIALLY. Circumstances changed, and she told you what is going on without telling you the reasons. BECAUSE YOU NEVER ASKED FOR THE REASONS> ALL YOU ASKED FOR WERE FACTS. And she gave them to you. DUH!

D. As far as your question about her day at work: YOU ASKED HER ABOUT HER WORK-DAY.
Not about WHAT she did AFTER work.
So her day at work was "FINE, as usual".
Meaning no one got fired.
If you asked her DIRECTLY: " And what did you do AFTER work?"
She would have told you: "I hung out with this dude, we went to lunch & walked along the waterfront discussing Quantum Physics [or whatever else they did]"
Realize: She needs INTELLECTUAL closeness to people.
That doesn't mean she is cheating.

E. As far as Room-mate situation is concerned:

1] She doesn't want to live with ANYONE. INTJ's are private. That's the FACT that she told you to start with. Honestly.
2] MONEY ISSUES are WHAT IS MAKING her CONSIDER 1 room-mate. She told you this too - honestly. That room-mate is someone she thinks WILL NOT BOTHER HER - he probably is a Thinking Type, not a Feeling type.
Just because that room-mate happens to be a GUY is NOT RELEVANT. IF she could find a girl like herself - a Thinking Type, not a FEELING Type, - with whom she thought she would be ABLE to live, and who she COULD TRUST not to INFRINGE upon her life - she would pick that person.
3] As you can see, she did not contradict herself, or change her mind about anything. She gave you ALL of the info straight up. As circumstances changed (in a couple of weeks she decided to tell you she needed more money), she shared this new decision with you.
4] Most likely than not, this decision is something that has been on her mind for a long time. THE FACT THAT SHE DEEMED YOU WORTHY ENOUGH TO SHARE THIS DECISION WITH YOU SHOULD DEMONSTRATE HOW MUCH SHE LOVES YOU.

If she didn't value you, she would just let the guy move in - and leave you deal with the consequences. She deems you important in her life. Therefore, she is sharing this info with you. This is her DEMONSTRATION OF ULTIMATE TRUST [READ: LOVE].

If you take her decision DEFENSIVELY - you are BASICALLY PUNISHING HER FOR TRUSTING YOU. She will trust you less as a result. Because to her TRUST = LOVE, and because she is being punished for LOVING you - she will show you her LOVE less and less.

F. If you want her to spend more time with you on social outings, tell her and GIVE HER LOGICAL REASONS and FACTS ABOUT YOUR OWN FEELINGS to justify WHY you need this.
1] Tell her: "It makes me feel like you have my back when you come out to party with me. I feel deserted when you do not, because I draw MY STRENGTH FROM MY BONDS WITH PEOPLE, and not INTERNALLY like you do. I know you sometimes are reluctant to go out, but what if we schedule it and do it in a PLANNED WAY and do it SELDOM? I need this to feel STRONG."
2] Then give her a SPECIFIC PROGRAM and REASONS for IMPLEMENTING THE SAID PROGRAM: "Let's schedule a time every 2 weeks when we go out to this particular restaurant/bar/club with 5-7 people [name the people, it has to be someone she CAN stand] and let's have 100% WICKED CRAZY FUN on those nights! Why? The REASONS ARE: It will a] loosen both of us up and b] give us an outlet for everyday pressures. c] Plus, socializing ACTIVELY is the ONLY way I BOND with people. Therefore, it will be good for our relationship = will make our bond stronger. "

*************Bottom Line******************

If she didn't love you, she wouldn't still be with you.
Relax, she loves you.
Just be more direct.
Tell her:
"I need your attention because that is the ONLY way in which I can feel loved. When you withdraw your attention, I feel unimportant.
Please show me your love in the ONLY way I can understand it.
Having my back is NOT enough.
You gotta show me
1] SPECIFICALLY,
2] EVERY SINGLE DAY, and
3] VERBALIZE it, please. "

[Tr0p1C]

I've noticed some similar behavior in the INTJ female I'm currently in a non-platonic relationship with. (It's complicated.) Anyway, I thought the inconsistencies were a bit suspicious too, but I think I've learned to trust her now (or just not care as much). The weird thing, though, is that I'm an INTJ too (or damned close). I can sort of figure her out by examining myself, but only sort of. Oh well. Good luck.