Student arrested for doodling on desk

[JustMel]

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A 7th grader was arrested and taken to a NYC precinct for doodling on a desk. It's not considered doodling it's considered "graffiti".

Now, I'm not condoning defacing school property but if I'd been arrested for every time I wrote on a desk in school I'd be a felon by now.

Did they go too far?

Discuss.

[Seducer]

I think they should've just caned him instead, or at least make him spend a month cleaning the school.

[JustMel]

I think they should've just caned him instead, or at least make him spend a month cleaning the school.

It was a female student. I can understand detention or making her clean desks after school but handcuffs and arrest?

[azelismia]

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A 7th grader was arrested and taken to a NYC precinct for doodling on a desk. It's not considered doodling it's considered "graffiti".

Now, I'm not condoning defacing school property but if I'd been arrested for every time I wrote on a desk in school I'd be a felon by now.

Did they go too far?

Discuss.


I'd be a felon too. They went way too far. doodling on your desk is a time honored tradition. I am pretty sure they were doing it in 1850 even.

[Blse]

It's over-board. Of course there need to be consequences, but this is too much.

Secondly, let's look at the cost of arresting someone, vs. the cost of a new desk. Making her clean hallways instead, or work in the kitchen to earn the money to buy a new desk, would a) punish the bad behavior and b) rectify the damage done. Arresting her punishes the taxpayer as well as her.

[HackerX]

I'd be a felon too. They went way too far. doodling on your desk is a time honored tradition. I am pretty sure they were doing it in 1850 even.

1850BC.


Graffiti, be it a school desk doodle, or on the side of the pyramids, is a fascinating insight into the true minds of people.

[kepstein8888]

One more example of the pettiness and warped priorities in our school system.

Meanwhile, in a thousand other schools somewhere in America, a pack of mean bitches were harassing a chubby girl with glasses, pushing her toward suicide or a lifetime of eating disorders while the staff looked the other way.

[True Rune]

Even in college this "graffiti" exists.


One more example of the pettiness and warped priorities in our school system.

Meanwhile, in a thousand other schools somewhere in America, a pack of mean bitches were harassing a chubby girl with glasses, pushing her toward suicide or a lifetime of eating disorders while the staff looked the other way.

...Sadly true. I've made sure to not do that.

[Mogura]

I don't condone destruction of school property either, but the response was probably way over the top*.

*I would support a "scared straight" tactic, where the police take her down to the station and give her a tour of the jail facilities, treat her to a bland lunch, have her mop the floor, etc. to give her something to think about...

[JustMel]

*I would support a "scared straight" tactic, where the police take her down to the station and give her a tour of the jail cell facilities, etc. to give her something to think about.

I'd even think that would be over kill in this case. More like a Saturday cleaning desks.

[Lucid]

I'd be a felon too. They went way too far. doodling on your desk is a time honored tradition. I am pretty sure they were doing it in 1850 even.

Yep. And a well doodled desk from the Victorian era can be a treasure to antique collectors. They should have made her clean the desk, end of story. Pen, pencil and permanent marker wash off those things pretty easily.

[Takeru]

I remember in high school always having to always see gum under the desk.... AND my school was pretty brand new too.

Besides that, what did she write on the desk to account for such a punishment? I would suspect that she would get something minor like either

1: detention
2: suspension
3: Saturday detention
4: Cleaning up the classroom.

But getting arrested is like O.o....

[rahdam]

true story: there are strange permanent pens with shiny ink that are NOT easily removed from desks. The solvent the school used officially did not remove graffiti when written by these pens. So, being a resourceful chemistry teacher at the time, I go into my chemical closet and pull out some mutha fuckin' toluene. BYE BYE ALL GRAFFITI.

[Night Runner]

O brave new world that has such people in it...

This reminds me of the time my college professor accused me of trying to kill her and sent the campus police chasing after me, all because I was doodling on my laptop. :rolleyes:

[HackerX]

true story: there are strange permanent pens with shiny ink that are NOT easily removed from desks. The solvent the school used officially did not remove graffiti when written by these pens. So, being a resourceful chemistry teacher at the time, I go into my chemical closet and pull out some mutha fuckin' toluene. BYE BYE ALL GRAFFITI.

That brings back memories of science/chem class. We had the best desks for this (best of both worlds). Our desks where glass tops sunk into a wooden frame & base. The glass tops were impossible to write on, but you could slip the appropriate paper underneath the glass top. Interesting "discussions" were had, and the process was (mostly) reverseable. Except for that one time a desk got knocked over and the glass shattered everywhere... But mucking around in the science lab, who would do that???

[zibber]

It's over-board. Of course there need to be consequences, but this is too much.

Secondly, let's look at the cost of arresting someone, vs. the cost of a new desk. Making her clean hallways instead, or work in the kitchen to earn the money to buy a new desk, would a) punish the bad behavior and b) rectify the damage done. Arresting her punishes the taxpayer as well as her.

Hahah, really?

It's a desk. People doodle on desks.

Graffiti is fine too, for that matter.

[ya lyublyu tebya]

I wonder what they would think of the time I wrote, "Poop here," with an arrow pointing to the toilet, on the tile wall in the bathroom. I'm a criminal!

Pay for a new desk? Maybe. Wash all the desks and maybe the rest of the classroom? Definitely. JAIL!? No way! That's completely ridiculous. Where were the handcuffs when groups of bullies ganged up on me daily or when some classmates locked me out of the school? Where were the police when huge guys were throwing hard balls at me and shoving me into walls to cut in line? I'd like to try some graffiti on those cops. Maybe the word "LOSER" written across their foreheads in red permanent marker. (Since that was what they called me all the time and were never reprimanded. Doodles. Honestly!)

[AnnoyingPony]

Desk doodling is an ancient and beautiful art! Those ignorant, puritanical teachers will never contain it!

No, seriously. Every single desk at my school is covered in graffiti (some more vulgar or perverse than others), the teachers see it, and they see kids do it, but they don't complain because some of the stuff they write is just plain funny. (One kid wrote "You will get herpes if you sit here - if you get it, pass it on" during science class once, and now every desk in the school has herpes.)

Doodling on a desk in pencil =/= defacing the side of a building with spray-paint. Seriously, arresting him was way over the top.

[jndiii]

The big picture of what's going on here is that schools are abdicating their disciplinary role.

If a school disciplines a child for doing something wrong, there is an unacceptably high risk of a lawsuit, never mind general complaints from parents about how the punishment (whatever it might be) is too harsh, etc.

By comparison, charging the child with a crime is legally safe for the school. The school is not responsible for whatever punishment the child might receive, and it is legally recorded that the child committed a crime, so the school is safe so long as the charge is not frivolous. No lawsuit is possible from the school's action.

Of course, the resulting actions, while rational (from this perspective), are completely asinine. My point isn't that the school is being reasonable (charging any child under 15 years old with a crime that doesn't involve serious theft or violence is unreasonable), but that schools need much more discretion with respect to discipline. The fear of lawsuits is rational, and schools should be (mostly) immune to lawsuits regarding discipline where no crime has been committed by school personnel.

In the video, the arresting officer is reported to have said, "We have to do this. This is the procedure." Meaning that it is procedure to put handcuffs on an arrested suspect.

However, I believe it is the school's choice whether to actually press the charges. If not, then there is something screwy with New York law that forces the school to press charges, in which case the state is forcing the school to abdicate discipline (the law against graffiti may be too severe).

[Blse]

Hahah, really?

It's a desk. People doodle on desks.

Graffiti is fine too, for that matter.

The desks at my university are mostly free of any graffiti, as are the vast majority of walls in my city. Desks and walls are property, either public or private. Graffiti is fine if the owner of the surface on which it is sprayed, etched, whatever, has given express permission.

[Megalomania]

I don't condone destruction of school property either, but the response was probably way over the top*.

*I would support a "scared straight" tactic, where the police take her down to the station and give her a tour of the jail facilities, treat her to a bland lunch, have her mop the floor, etc. to give her something to think about...


A mock execution sounds far more appropriate.

[Ray9]

Things were so different back in the ancient days when I attended school. Norman Richards can attest to that if he's still alive. One day in about 1960 when I was in the eighth grade Norman was up to his old tricks throwing spitballs while Mrs. Cosmo was writing on the blackboard. First he would throw little spitballs that stuck to the blackboard that Mrs. cosmo didn't see. Emboldened and encouraged by the laughs of the other students, He started making them bigger and bigger until he hurled a gigantic one that made a thud as it planted itself right next to Mrs. Cosmo's hand. Mrs. Cosmo was about five feet tall and weighed about 250. She was built like a fire hydrant. She turned around just as ole Norman was moving to hide an even bigger spitball. Her head seemed to swivel like the turret on top of a military tank as she made a bee line for Norman. What happened next wasn't a pretty sight. She grabbed Norman by the hair and dragged hime the full length of the classroom, slamming his head on the doorjam on the way to the principle's office. Funny, Norman never acted up in that class again. But that was the old days before we became sophisticated.

[Nightsun]

Make her clean the desk will be enough.

[ArtistTyrant]

clean the desk and classroom+3 days of detention...if it were a nice/new desk, if it were an old desk with lots of other stuff on it, then just 1 day of detention

[darynthe]

There is something seriously wrong with the laws of your country if it is ok to arrest and handcuff a kid for doodling on a desk.

I am angry at reading this. I hope the people responsible are fired. They shoudn't be entrusted a trash can, much less the security of citizens.

Please keep us posted about the aftermath of this.

[ArtistTyrant]

the US is just following in the footsteps of the UK tbh

[Blse]

What just occurred to me, is that this couldn't possibly be standard procedure. In NYC, a city of 8 million, thousands of kids doodle of desks each day, thousands are caught by school officials and punished by school officials. The question then is, what made this particular school official(s) take this particular path of action?

[freeeekyyy]

Student should have gotten a month in detention and had to pay for repairs. Arresting is too much.

---------- Post added 02-10-2010 at 09:55 PM ----------

There is something seriously wrong with the laws of your country if it is ok to arrest and handcuff a kid for doodling on a desk.

I am angry at reading this. I hope the people responsible are fired. They shoudn't be entrusted a trash can, much less the security of citizens.

Please keep us posted about the aftermath of this.
Actually, that would be the state, not the country.

[Ray9]

The power of the state cannot be denied. Laws are enacted to protect the state and the property of the state. The laws are sweeping and blind to circumstances that demand logic and common sense. The state underlings who interpret these laws function dutifully in their capacity as enforcers of the public good. Beaurecrats exist to act, not to think. Central planning is alive and well. The road to serfdom is clear.

[cal]

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A 7th grader was arrested and taken to a NYC precinct for doodling on a desk. It's not considered doodling it's considered "graffiti".

Now, I'm not condoning defacing school property but if I'd been arrested for every time I wrote on a desk in school I'd be a felon by now.

Did they go too far?

Discuss.

Too far.

I'd try this for a defense:

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[Elfrun]

Absurd, but not the first time: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Apparently both the NYPD and education departments' spokesmen are saying that the incident shouldn't have happened, common sense should have prevailed, and discretion as to whether handcuffs were necessary if asked to arrest should have been used.

Seems like an epic failure in common sense, the punishment did not fit the crime.

[freeeekyyy]

The power of the state cannot be denied. Laws are enacted to protect the state and the property of the state. The laws are sweeping and blind to circumstances that demand logic and common sense. The state underlings who interpret these laws function dutifully in their capacity as enforcers of the public good. Beaurecrats exist to act, not to think. Central planning is alive and well. The road to serfdom is clear.
Thanks for the Hayek reference. It absolutely is.

[Yhor]

The big picture of what's going on here is that schools are abdicating their disciplinary role.

If a school disciplines a child for doing something wrong, there is an unacceptably high risk of a lawsuit, never mind general complaints from parents about how the punishment (whatever it might be) is too harsh, etc.

By comparison, charging the child with a crime is legally safe for the school. The school is not responsible for whatever punishment the child might receive, and it is legally recorded that the child committed a crime, so the school is safe so long as the charge is not frivolous. No lawsuit is possible from the school's action.

Of course, the resulting actions, while rational (from this perspective), are completely asinine. My point isn't that the school is being reasonable (charging any child under 15 years old with a crime that doesn't involve serious theft or violence is unreasonable), but that schools need much more discretion with respect to discipline. The fear of lawsuits is rational, and schools should be (mostly) immune to lawsuits regarding discipline where no crime has been committed by school personnel.

In the video, the arresting officer is reported to have said, "We have to do this. This is the procedure." Meaning that it is procedure to put handcuffs on an arrested suspect.

However, I believe it is the school's choice whether to actually press the charges. If not, then there is something screwy with New York law that forces the school to press charges, in which case the state is forcing the school to abdicate discipline (the law against graffiti may be too severe).
I agree.
There is something seriously wrong with the laws of your country if it is ok to arrest and handcuff a kid for doodling on a desk.

I am angry at reading this.
I agree here, too.

The power of the state cannot be denied. Laws are enacted to protect the state and the property of the state. The laws are sweeping and blind to circumstances that demand logic and common sense. The state underlings who interpret these laws function dutifully in their capacity as enforcers of the public good. Beaurecrats exist to act, not to think. Central planning is alive and well. The road to serfdom is clear.
And, also agree with this.

I think boils down to parents not teaching their children to be responsible, and not giving consequences when their children shrug off their responsibility and ignore the importance of respecting other's property. So, because of parent's lack of parenting, schools and the government are expected, by the parents and society, to fill the role.

So, with dollar signs flashing in their eyes, government officials and legislators/judges find that taking on the role of parenting is profitable via tax, and leads to job security via happy parents/voters. Media has their role, too.

So, either ignore this type of punishment, praise it, or change it by voting and speaking to your legislators. If you live in a state where this is occurring, and you have done nothing, you are partly responsible. If you are a parent whose child was a 'victim' of this type of punishment.. yes, you are responsible to a much larger degree.

[Anhedonic Lake]

I take heart in the fact that I'm becoming more mentally healthy while society becomes more insane.

[Defenestratoris]

I just wanted to ask if it's normal if I never had the urge to doodle on desks, and looked down on those who did. Their etchings were overwhelmingly worthless.

[JustMel]

I doodled and erased mostly. It was boredom. I know a lot of people who carved on the desks rather than just drawing though.