Men that were mistreated/abused by a woman

[Lucky]

You hear a lot of talk from women or about women that were mistreated/abused by their father or mother or by their husband. However there is not much talk of men that were mistreated by a woman. Don't men get abused by a woman very often or is the taboo for a man to talk about such abuse too big?
By abuse I mean any kind of abuse, economical, physical and psychological.

[Samoan Corleone]

I wrote about it before, but me and a friend were basically jumped by a group of girls in primary (elementary for you Americans) school for no particular reason. We told a teacher and the girls received, well, calling a "slap on the wrist" would be exaggerating. I don't know if that counts.

I think it is considered taboo to talk about, for obvious reasons such as males being the traditionally physically stronger sex. Any guy talking about getting his ass handed to him by a woman is going to meet much ridicule and disgust.

[Silverity]

Seems more taboo. I've met a few men who were physically and emotionally abused by their mothers and honestly, they are so broken, it gave me a physical ache just to sit beside them and watch the turmoil cross their faces.

Not only do you have the pain of being abused, but there is this onus on men to be strong, dominant, to stand up for themselves. These were men abused as children, who were virtually powerless but feel that they should have done something about it.

[Lucky]

I wrote about it before, but me and a friend were basically jumped by a group of girls in primary (elementary for you Americans) school for no particular reason. We told a teacher and the girls received, well, calling a "slap on the wrist" would be exaggerating. I don't know if that counts.

I think it is considered taboo to talk about, for obvious reasons such as males being the traditionally physically stronger sex. Any guy talking about getting his ass handed to him by a woman is going to meet much ridicule and disgust.

Abuse is abuse, it should absolutely not matter what gender the perpetrator is and what gender the victim is. I am a woman myself and I do not think women should get off the hook more easily when being abusive or neglectful.

---------- Post added 01-29-2010 at 09:05 AM ----------

Seems more taboo. I've met a few men who were physically and emotionally abused by their mothers and honestly, they are so broken, it gave me a physical ache just to sit beside them and watch the turmoil cross their faces.

Not only do you have the pain of being abused, but there is this onus on men to be strong, dominant, to stand up for themselves. These were men abused as children, who were virtually powerless but feel that they should have done something about it.

Yes, that is awful!

[Amphorian]

Yes, I know of some. Usually because the pain gets stuck inside since it's quite taboo. I find it so sad that it's hard for men to get what they need out of their systems because of our social structure and expectations. It does no good when they can't properly tell anyone what is going on, or when they do more bad things have already happen, like themselves losing control (anger issues). More people need to start believing that men do get hurt by women on a regular basis. It's not a myth. Everything, sexual, physical, emotional, mental, verbal... they really do need to be taken seriously and given real treatment and love. =/

[Lucky]

I think quite a lot of men experience trauma bonds with a woman during their life. And a number of them get hurt very much and start having problems like drinking too much or trying to commit suicide and other kinds of problems.
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Here are the signs that trauma bonds exist in your life:
• When you obsess about people who have hurt you though they are long gone from your life (To obsess means to be preoccupied, fantasize about, and wonder about something/someone even though you do not want to.)
• When you continue to seek contact with people whom you know will cause you further pain.
• When you go “overboard” to help people who have been destructive to you.
• When you continue to be a “team” member when obviously things are becoming destructive.
• When you continue attempts to get people who are clearly using you to like you.
• When you again and again trust people who have proved to be unreliable.
• When you are unable to distance yourself from unhealthy relationships.
• When you want to be understood by those who clearly do not care.
• When you choose to stay in conflict with others when it would cost you nothing to walk away.
• When you persist in trying to convince people that there is a problem and they are not willing to listen.
• When you are loyal to people who have betrayed you.
• When you are attached to untrustworthy people.
• When you keep damaging secrets about exploitation or abuse.
• When you continue contact with an abuser who acknowledges no responsibility.

[Anhedonic Lake]

There's plenty of psychotic and manipulative women out there and it is a taboo subject in the same way a man or a transsexual being raped are taboo.

[plotthickens]

Something not mentioned: trapping men into marrying them because they're pregnant.

Physical abuse of fem on mas is not as common as the reverse, but they are 7 - 10 times (depends on your country) to use an object (frying pan, baseball bat, gun) than men. And are correspondingly more destructive/deadly.

It's all bad stuff, no matter what side it comes from.

[Outdoorwhale]

I have quite a bit. Most of my teenage years were ruined because of women not leaving me alone.

I tried talking about it once here and got nothing but arguments and backlash how none of it happened. Many won't for this very reason, this place is no different.

[Vagrant]

Something not mentioned: trapping men into marrying them because they're pregnant.

Yeah, that seems to be something I hear being very common. Seducing a guy then trying to trap him because of it seems to be horrendously evil to me.

Physical abuse of fem on mas is not as common as the reverse, but they are 7 - 10 times (depends on your country) to use an object (frying pan, baseball bat, gun) than men. And are correspondingly more destructive/deadly.

I've heard that as well -- while women are less likely to use physical violence, when they do, it's often in terrible excess, using all varieties of weapons.

[Thinktress]

You hear a lot of talk from women or about women that were mistreated/abused by their father or mother or by their husband. However there is not much talk of men that were mistreated by a woman. Don't men get abused by a woman very often or is the taboo for a man to talk about such abuse too big?
By abuse I mean any kind of abuse, economical, physical and psychological.

I can't really speak to the subject of adult men being abused by women because I only know about it intellectually. I know that it happens, but I have no first hand experience with it. However, you had mentioned girls being abused by their mothers and/or fathers. Children of both genders are abused by their parents, and boys are physically abused the most often by both parents.

[plotthickens]

I have quite a bit. Most of my teenage years were ruined because of women not leaving me alone.

I tried talking about it once here and got nothing but arguments and backlash how none of it happened. Many won't for this very reason, this place is no different.

Abuse of women was made illegal because courageous women spoke up. Otherwise, it just... wasn't talked about. Good for you for speaking up. Are you continuing to do so?

[Samoan Corleone]

Something not mentioned: trapping men into marrying them because they're pregnant.

I always thought that was a safety precaution that makes the man less likely to ditch his child and his/her mother.

[Nemesis]

Physical abuse of fem on mas is not as common as the reverse, but they are 7 - 10 times (depends on your country) to use an object (frying pan, baseball bat, gun) than men. And are correspondingly more destructive/deadly.


What is vital to note here, is that the rates of female on male abuse depends on self-reported measures. Because of the social taboo of men showing "weakness", there's likely a massive number of men who aren't reporting abuse or even perceive the treatment they receive as such. The actual rate is likely to be much, much higher than what is published.

[Dru]

neither sex is any more than the other. the abuse manifests itself in different ways, typically, but some people are just fucking crazy, and that's that. not "men are violent" or "women are bitches". *rolls eyes disdainfully*

[Aronnax]

Enculturation makes males less likely to complain about abuse, particularly if the abuse came from a woman; a difference in age and/or power is nearly irrelevant. In male culture stoicism is worshiped and exposing weakness is an invitation for ridicule.

[firebee]

I always thought that was a safety precaution that makes the man less likely to ditch his child and his/her mother.

The existence of the child is the problem -- the process here is that the woman sabotages the birth control method they're using in order to become pregnant with her sexual partner's child.

What is vital to note here, is that the rates of female on male abuse depends on self-reported measures. Because of the social taboo of men showing "weakness", there's likely a massive number of men who aren't reporting abuse or even perceive the treatment they receive as such. The actual rate is likely to be much, much higher than what is published.

I think the last time this subject came around, there was someone who was advocating for this position -- that a man who was actually abused by a mere woman was pathetic, and if he was so foolish to call attention to his weakness by making a complaint, he deserved to be socially ostracized.

Which strikes me as pretty much the standard example of one of the favorite comments of my mentor: "The patriarchy hurts men too."

One thing that's kind of stuck in my mind is an article I read awhile back from a woman who is an assistant instructor in, IIRC, Shotokan Karate. She stated that she felt most at risk for injury when teaching a certain type of new female student -- the sort who came to class convinced that it was not physically possible for a woman to cause physical injury to another human, and who as a result elected (for instance) to kick her instructor hard enough in the groin to drop her.

The concept of a woman being the perpetrator of physical violence -- particularly against a man -- is a subject of humor because man-bones can't be broken by the puny jello that a woman is made of even if that jello is wielding two pounds of cast iron skillet.

[Vagrant]

One thing that's kind of stuck in my mind is an article I read awhile back from a woman who is an assistant instructor in, IIRC, Shotokan Karate. She stated that she felt most at risk for injury when teaching a certain type of new female student -- the sort who came to class convinced that it was not physically possible for a woman to cause physical injury to another human, and who as a result elected (for instance) to kick her instructor hard enough in the groin to drop her.

Which is kind of scary, considering that the majority of women are not frail -- I know how much a serious punch from a guy can hurt. A serious punch from a girl wouldn't hit as hard, but would still hurt like hell in the right spot.

[Aronnax]

Which is kind of scary, considering that the majority of women are not frail -- I know how much a serious punch from a guy can hurt. A serious punch from a girl wouldn't hit as hard, but would still hurt like hell in the right spot.


Punching is more about technique than raw strength. Any adult can break bones with their fists if they know what they're doing.

[Vagrant]

Punching is more about technique than raw strength. Any adult can break bones with their fists if they know what they're doing.

Well aware of that myself. I know my punches and kicks hurt because I put my whole body into them. That's why I don't attack anybody seriously unless it's necessary. Besides, I much prefer grappling and locks, a much cleaner and painless way of going about it.

[plotthickens]

Which is kind of scary, considering that the majority of women are not frail -- I know how much a serious punch from a guy can hurt. A serious punch from a girl wouldn't hit as hard, but would still hurt like hell in the right spot.

Come over here and say that to my face. But seriously... underestimating women like that can, uhm, be almost hilarious under the right circumstances. And you're setting yourself up for one, my friend.

And this is why fem on mas abuse is not reported. Thank you for the Case In Point!

[Vagrant]

Come over here and say that to my face. But seriously... underestimating women like that can, uhm, be almost hilarious under the right circumstances. And you're setting yourself up for one, my friend.

And this is why fem on mas abuse is not reported. Thank you for the Case In Point!

Who said I'm underestimating them? I know just how much a slap can hurt and how much a punch can hurt.

[Syntax]

Which is kind of scary, considering that the majority of women are not frail -- I know how much a serious punch from a guy can hurt. A serious punch from a girl wouldn't hit as hard, but would still hurt like hell in the right spot.

Oh man, a girl kicked me in the solar plexus once in a university Tae-Kwon-Do class by mistake and--whew--I felt it. To say the least. It felt like a bowling ball fell from the second story and landed on my gut. And that wasn't even 100% effort; she tried to stop her foot/leg half-way through.

Based on what I've seen in karate classes I'm inclined to say that women are more risk averse, on average, than men when it comes to hurting other people. I remember the first day of my Judo class; the class was approx. 1/3 girls. Then we saw a demonstration of some of the techniques we would be learning. Stuff like this (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). All but two dropped the class within 24 hours, which is silly because Judo is one of the gentlest sports in existence. It looks rough, but it's statistically safer than soccer.

[plotthickens]

Who said I'm underestimating them? I know just how much a slap can hurt and how much a punch can hurt.

And, let me guess, slap=woman, punch=man?

Thank you again for Case In Point From Vagrant: men are stronger and women don't cause as much pain. If you feel pain from a girl, you're weak.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuure.



---------- Post added 01-29-2010 at 03:23 PM ----------



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[Syntax]

And, let me guess, slap=woman, punch=man?

Thank you again for Case In Point From Vagrant: men are stronger and women don't cause as much pain. If you feel pain from a girl, you're weak.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuure.




Either you're being deliberately obtuse for the sake of humor, or you're really misreading his statements. I can't tell.

[Vagrant]

And, let me guess, slap=woman, punch=man?

Thank you again for Case In Point From Vagrant: men are stronger and women don't cause as much pain. If you feel pain from a girl, you're weak.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuure.

Way to go Tex -- take everything I say out of proportion and call me the asshole.

I never stated which gender they were from -- all I said is that I know how they hurt.

TL; DR: What Syntax said.

[firebee]

If you feel pain from a girl, you're weak.

This is your addition to Vagrant's statements, and it directly contradicts the point that he was trying to make -- namely that women, while they might not be able to generate as much force in a standard punch as men, can sure as hell generate enough. Or can use alternate techniques (I have a thing for elbow strikes, which I suspect if landed cleanly would put a person in to have their face put back together) or take up a weapon.

By the way, if you're thinking that a slap delivered by a woman necessarily connotes trivial potential for damage and/or pain, I haz a slap or two to show you...

[Outdoorwhale]

Abuse of women was made illegal because courageous women spoke up. Otherwise, it just... wasn't talked about. Good for you for speaking up. Are you continuing to do so?

No.

I've dealt with it enough, I'm not wasting anymore of my life on it. It already is illegal but no one cares. I pretty much lost my entire teenage years to this garbage and have little faith in people.

[wmsonta]

google-abusegate, check given references as always.

its possible women abuse men at a much higher rate then the other way around.

[BlackMita]

Abuse isn't about "how much it hurts" as much as it's about the repetition of an act which immediately affects someone (they're fine - [act] - they're disgruntled). There is no distinction between a punch, slap, or belittling insult... it's abuse if you're consistently responsible for disorienting another.

[Jaxx]

I've got a mother who was and is a closet alcoholic that abused my sister and I up to the day we both moved out. Both emotionally and psychologically.

I had a girlfriend for four years up to a year ago (I terminated it) who, now that I think of it, was just as abusive as my mother. She in turn was abused by both of her parents both emotionally and psychologically as well. So it makes sense that I would perceive her shattered output of emotion as love when really it wasn't.

Details are not needed but I have been working at my little 'issue' for some time now. It's gotten better but I can honestly say that talking to women is painful. No idea what to say, how to act, what to talk about, or even if they are flirting with me. I have no clue at all. It sucks a mountain of ass and is even worse when the weekend shows up (a la going out with friends).

[JustMel]

It's taboo for a guy to admit to being abused by a woman. I work with battered women and kids and on the very rare occasion a man.

There are women that can land a punch just as hard as a man. There are men that can't punch for shit.

My husband's ex-wife punched him 37 times in the kidneys one night with her fists and rings on, he pissed blood for two weeks.

Men are more likely to be subjected to emotional or psychological abuse which is just as bad and sometimes worse than physical abuse.

[ya lyublyu tebya]

Ugh... a while ago, I thought about doing something to raise awareness for abused men and boys, but forgot all about it... Reading this, I might do something now.

It's extremely taboo, and extremely prevalent. I'm sure it happens just as much as with women, but no authorities take it seriously, society calls it weakness, and because of that, it remains under the radar.

[Antares]

It always annoyed me that some women think it's ok for them to slap their boyfriends while being entirely hypocritical about men doing the same thing. It's not ok for anyone to use physical violence, whether or not you have a dick or you think it's justified. If I slap anyone, I don't expect to get off scot-free. There is simply no excuse for violence, not even anger or drunkenness. If a husband lays a violent hands on me, I'll see him in court. If a boyfriend does it, good bye, mate. This is my standard and I hold the same for anyone, man or woman.

[Lucky]

I think this is a really good website, it is one of very few that discusses men being abused by women.
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The dating world is like a jungle and there are a lot of predators out there. My advice is:

Pay attention to your instincts.
Know your deal-breakers and deal-makers.
Don’t minimize or ignore crazy or unsettling behaviors and conversations.
Remember that your needs and feeling are just as important as a potential mate’s needs and feelings.
Beauty fades, but crazy and abusive are forever.

by Dr Tara J. Palmatier, PsyD

[Anhedonic Lake]

What is vital to note here, is that the rates of female on male abuse depends on self-reported measures. Because of the social taboo of men showing "weakness", there's likely a massive number of men who aren't reporting abuse or even perceive the treatment they receive as such. The actual rate is likely to be much, much higher than what is published.

It seems a social taboo for a man to show emotions/cry let alone admit being abused,especially by a woman. Supressed emotions cannot be healthy.

[Lucky]

Yes, I do think that a lot of men don't recognize that wat is happening is actually abuse.
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Why Couples Therapy Rarely Works


An abusive woman, particularly a narcissist or a borderline, typically can’t tolerate effective therapy because it puts boundaries in place and holds her accountable. In this case, therapy often degenerates into yet another vehicle to complain about and blame others, namely you. It becomes a device to a) get you to do whatever it is she wants you to do (e.g., stay in the marriage or quit asking her to get a job); b) get you to shut up and do as you’re told; and/or c) co-opt the therapist into validating her distortions, forcing you to “prove” yourself and placing the entire onus of the relationship on you.

Meanwhile, she continues to play the “Queen of Hearts,” declaring, “Off with his head!” when you inevitably displease her. The following are some key reasons why therapy rarely works with this kind of woman:

1) Ego syntonic vs. ego dystonic. Personality disorders, particularly the Cluster B personality disorders (Narcissistic, Borderline, Histrionic, Antisocial) cause the most pain and suffering to others rather than themselves. Abusive narcissistic and/or borderline women often experience negative consequences for their bad behaviors, however, they don’t see themselves as the ones with the problem. They believe they’re okay (syntonic) and blame everyone else for their problems and unhappiness. They will not connect the dots back to themselves, until their behavior becomes dystonic, i.e., they see their own behavior as the source of discomfort, pain, etc.

2) You can’t help someone who won’t admit there’s a problem. This kind of woman will readily admit that you have problems, but that doesn’t count. Therapy not only doesn’t work with an individual who takes no responsibility for her actions, it also becomes another mechanism by which this woman controls and emotionally bludgeons you.

Just like your wife/girlfriend twists the things you say and do, she’ll also twist what a therapist says—especially if the therapist holds her accountable. This woman “shops” for therapists she can use to blame and shame her husband/boyfriend into submission. The moment a therapist tries to hold her accountable, they’re denounced as a quack and she moves onto the next “expert” for hire or denounces therapy altogether and refuses to see another therapist.

Everything is about control. Controlling your reality, controlling the therapist’s perception of her and you—i.e., she’s great; you’re a boorish ogre. If she senses she’s losing control of the therapist and the session and the focus shifts to her behaviors, she’ll probably flee the scene and begin a smear campaign to devalue the therapist and/or the entire field of Psychology. She behaves this way in order to avoid having her flaws and/or pathology exposed and to avoid being held accountable.

3) Predators don’t get “better,” but they do become “better at being predators.” Predators don’t get better and they often become better predators with the help of an unwitting therapist. Bad therapy helps an abusive narcissistic or borderline woman to manipulate her partner. It helps her maintain the pattern of blame and zero accountability. It strengthens her role of the professional victim, which hides the true aggressor lying just beneath the surface

[emma4enriquexx]

I think often emotional abuse from women towards men is more common than people imagine maybe because men feel ashamed to admit it. I don't think physical abuse from women towards men is very common and not as serious (apart from extensive, extreme cases) as the other way round simply because as the difference in strength and size. I don't many women would even try to physically hurt a man for that reason.

[Lucky]

In power struggles things are not only about physical strength but also very much about psychological intimidation. And women are as good at psychological intimidation, seeking lots of attention to themselves (drama queens, histrionics), cheating, playing the victim, lying, etc. as any men, maybe even better.

[salparadise]

Everything is about control. Controlling your reality, controlling the therapist’s perception of her and you—i.e., she’s great; you’re a boorish ogre. If she senses she’s losing control of the therapist and the session and the focus shifts to her behaviors, she’ll probably flee the scene and begin a smear campaign to devalue the therapist and/or the entire field of Psychology. She behaves this way in order to avoid having her flaws and/or pathology exposed and to avoid being held accountable.


I am just out of a 20-year marriage to a borderline. I didn't realize it was an abusive situation until I got into therapy and started learning about personality disorders, and even then it took awhile to understand how much psychological trauma I had endured. Lucky, your description above fits her precisely. I tried many times to get her to go to counseling and it was out of the question. I began going myself and the first thing the therapist did was to help me understand how to enforce boundaries, ignore the splitting, and be assertive without engaging. That didn't go over well at all with her and she cranked up the control, anger and hostility beyond anything I had imagined. But by that time I knew the pattern and had begun the process of differentiating. I go to court next week to try and get a shared custody order for our daughter and equitable distribution of the assets. She tried to convince me, and will try to convince the judge next week, that she deserves full custody and 85% of the assets. I was lucky enough to hire an excellent lawyer that obtained degrees in psychology before studying law. We're hoping to get her to treat the judge to one of her splitting episodes. She has already done that for the guardian ad litem. I am sending the GAL articles on the importance of the father to a teenage daughter and the damage an enmeshed relationship with a borderline mother can do if the father is relegated to occasional visitation as opposed to being allowed to provide balance and stability and teach her that she has a right to her own thoughts and feelings and that her value as a person is not dependent upon mirroring and appeasing the mother at all times. Any suggestions for how to communicate these things effectively in fifteen minutes would be greatly appreciated.

[Axel]

Well.... with the risk of hijacking the thread:

Men in society are considered as machines. We only search for women that we can abuse, we are strong and we destroy anything in our path, we can't be stopped and we are always happy. That's it. No "if's" or "but's". It's simply the way things are.

I read a story about a male robber who was trying to rob a hairdressingsalong in russia. The woman who was working managed to catch him off guard and tied him up with ropes to one of the chairs. Then she beat him up and used him as a sex-slave. If he didn't get erection when she wanted sex she would simply force him to eat viagra.
The funny thing about this story is that the media almost told it like a joke. It was simply a crazy woman fucking the man who tried to rob her, he was apparently "such a lucky bastard".

Aye aye, it's a wonderful world. Now imagine how it would have been reported if it was the other way around?

[JustMel]

Well.... with the risk of hijacking the thread:

Men in society are considered as machines. We only search for women that we can abuse, we are strong and we destroy anything in our path, we can't be stopped and we are always happy. That's it. No "if's" or "but's". It's simply the way things are.

I read a story about a male robber who was trying to rob a hairdressingsalong in russia. The woman who was working managed to catch him off guard and tied him up with ropes to one of the chairs. Then she beat him up and used him as a sex-slave. If he didn't get erection when she wanted sex she would simply force him to eat viagra.
The funny thing about this story is that the media almost told it like a joke. It was simply a crazy woman fucking the man who tried to rob her, he was apparently "such a lucky bastard".

Aye aye, it's a wonderful world. Now imagine how it would have been reported if it was the other way around?

We had a whole thread on that story when it hit somewhere on the forum. Guys get a bum rap a lot of times but then so do women.

[Lucky]

I am just out of a 20-year marriage to a borderline. I didn't realize it was an abusive situation until I got into therapy and started learning about personality disorders, and even then it took awhile to understand how much psychological trauma I had endured. Lucky, your description above fits her precisely. I tried many times to get her to go to counseling and it was out of the question. I began going myself and the first thing the therapist did was to help me understand how to enforce boundaries, ignore the splitting, and be assertive without engaging. That didn't go over well at all with her and she cranked up the control, anger and hostility beyond anything I had imagined. But by that time I knew the pattern and had begun the process of differentiating. I go to court next week to try and get a shared custody order for our daughter and equitable distribution of the assets. She tried to convince me, and will try to convince the judge next week, that she deserves full custody and 85% of the assets. I was lucky enough to hire an excellent lawyer that obtained degrees in psychology before studying law. We're hoping to get her to treat the judge to one of her splitting episodes. She has already done that for the guardian ad litem. I am sending the GAL articles on the importance of the father to a teenage daughter and the damage an enmeshed relationship with a borderline mother can do if the father is relegated to occasional visitation as opposed to being allowed to provide balance and stability and teach her that she has a right to her own thoughts and feelings and that her value as a person is not dependent upon mirroring and appeasing the mother at all times. Any suggestions for how to communicate these things effectively in fifteen minutes would be greatly appreciated.

Please be very careful that your wife after divorce does not start alienating you and your daughter. It happens quite a lot especially when there is a disturbed/disordered parent involved.
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---------- Post added 01-31-2010 at 11:33 AM ----------

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The characteristics of women (or men) who are abusive fall into three categories.

Alcohol Abuse. Alcohol abuse is a major cause and trigger in domestic violence. People who are intoxicated have less impulse control, are easily frustrated, have greater misunderstandings and are generally prone to resort to violence as a solution to problems. Women who abuse men are frequently alcoholics.

Psychological Disorders. There are certain psychological problems, primarily personality disorders, in which women are characteristically abusive and violent toward men. Borderline personality disorder is a diagnosis that is found almost exclusively with women. Approximately 1 to 2 percent of all women have a Borderline Personality disorder. At least 50% of all domestic abuse and violence against men is associated with woman who have a Borderline Personality disorder. The disorder is also associated with suicidal behavior, severe mood swings, lying, sexual problems and alcohol abuse.

Unrealistic expectations, assumptions and conclusions. Women who are abusive toward men usually have unrealistic expectations and make unrealistic demands of men. These women will typically experience repeated episodes of depression, anxiety, frustration and irritability which they attribute to a man's behavior. In fact, their mental and emotional state is the result of their own insecurities, emotional problems, trauma during childhood or even withdrawal from alcohol. They blame men rather than admit their problems, take responsibility for how they live their lives or do something about how they make themselves miserable. They refuse to enter treatment and may even insist the man needs treatment. Instead of helping themselves, they blame a man for how they feel and believe that a man should do something to make them feel better. They will often medicate their emotions with alcohol. When men can't make them feel better, these women become frustrated and assume that men are doing this on purpose.

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Statistics About Domestic Abuse And Violence Against Men

Very little in known about the actual number of men who are in a domestic relationship in which they are abused or treated violently by women. In 100 domestic violence situations approximately 40 cases involve violence by women against men. An estimated 400,000 women per year are abused or treated violently in the United States by their spouse or intimate partner. This means that roughly 300,000 to 400,000 men are treated violently by their wife or girl friend.

---------- Post added 01-31-2010 at 12:05 PM ----------

According to this overview a lot of mothers abuse a child:
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[undercurrent]

I know a man married to a woman with BPD and he is completely and irrecoverably broken. If some poor sap is unfortunate enough to get married to/be in a relationship with a borderline woman, I am dead serious when I say he needs to get her out of his life at any cost. Seriously, even if it means leaving your job, your house, moving, whatever. Of course if they've had kids he and the kids are pretty much doomed.

[salparadise]

Lucky, thank you for the information and links. She is mostly of the third type. There is no alcohol-substance abuse, or suicidal gestures. She has the mood swings, lying and disingenuous character, passive-aggressive (when not being overtly aggressive), sexual issues, and one you didn't mention- compulsive spending. I think getting her credit card scanned triggers endorphins. She is a high-functioning borderline, and of course I am applying the label without it having been officially assigned by a licensed psychologist, however I'm pretty confident that she meets the DSM-IV criteria. She uses emotional reasoning- using what one feels as evidence of truth or objective reality. The entire third paragraph fits her exactly. I am compiling notes. I am only too aware of parental alienation syndrome. My brother lost his three boys completely because of it. I will not make the same mistake- he should have taken the sheriff and enforced his visitation no matter what. His ex was much worse- she was fully psychotic. That is why I am adamant about having equal status in the custody order, and a defined schedule that can be enforced if necessary. She is incapable of introspection and cannot distinguish her own emotions from the best interest of her daughter, much less put her daughter's needs ahead of her own.

undercurrent, I can imagine and really feel for the guy you know. But it's not like they're all the same. Some of the low-functioning BPDs seem to be in crisis mode all of the time and others can seem normal most of the time and the dysfunction is expressed in more subtle ways until the split. Fortunately mine is one of the latter.

[Lucky]

So we can assume that any person with any type of PD can be abusive? And that these people with PD's can be male or female (50/50). And that these people can target sons, daughters, wifes, husbands etc. Often it is said that men usually suffer from Narcissistic PD and women from borderline PD but not everybody seems to think that that is the case. Possibly the traits in people with either PD are actually quite the same?
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What is borderline personality disorder?
Borderline personality disorder (BPD) is a mental disorder that belongs to the group of mental illnesses called personality disorders. Therefore, like other personality disorders, it is characterized by a consistent pattern of thinking, feeling and interacting with others and with the world that tends to cause problems for the sufferer. Specifically, BPD tends to be associated with a pattern of unstable ways of seeing oneself, feeling, behaving, and relating to others that interferes with the individual's ability to function. Also, as with other personality disorders, the person is usually an adolescent or adult before they can be assessed as meeting meet full symptom criteria for BPD.
Historically, BPD has been thought to be a set of symptoms that include both mood problems (neuroses) and distortions of reality (psychosis), and therefore was thought to be on the borderline between mood problems and schizophrenia. However, it is now understood that while BPD may straddle those symptom complexes, it is more closely related to other personality disorders in terms of how it may develop and run in families. Contrary to what the medical community thought in the past, BPD is now understood to occur equally in men and women, rather than primarily in women. The frequency with which it occurs is also thought to be considerably higher than previously thought, affecting nearly 6% of adults over the course of a lifetime.
What other disorders often occur with BPD?
Men with BPD are more likely to also have a substance-use disorder and women are more likely to have eating disorders. In adolescents, BPD tends to co-occur with more anxious and odd personality disorders like schizotypal and passive aggressive personality disorder, respectively. Adults may be more likely to have antisocial personality disorder along with BPD. Interestingly, even people who have some symptoms (traits) of BPD but do not meet full diagnostic criteria for the disorder can experience both traits of that disorder and of narcissistic personality disorder.
Although there has been some controversy as to whether or not BPD is truly its own disorder or a variation of bipolar disorder, research supports the theory that BPD, like virtually every medical or mental-health disorder can appear (present) in nearly as many unique and complex ways as there are people who have it. In other words, some individuals with BPD will have that disorder alone, while others will have it in combination with bipolar or another mental disorder, and still others will appear to have BPD but really qualify for the diagnosis of bipolar disorder and visa versa.
BPD is not recognized worldwide. It is most closely diagnosed as emotionally unstable personality disorder in the International Classification of Disease, or ICD-10. Although countries like China and India recognize mental disorders that have some symptoms in common with BPD, its existence is not formally recognized.

[plotthickens]

Any suggestions for how to communicate these things effectively in fifteen minutes would be greatly appreciated.


Talk to people who know your judge. Does she want quick overviews? Lots of briefs before hand? Is he divorced, as well? Tailor your presentation.
Speak only highlights but have backup material if requested.
Ask for more than you think you can get, but make it reasonable: ask for her to go to counseling before she can get access to your child. Her reaction there might blow things up in your favor. >:)
Get your credit history printed out. Highlight everything she overspent on. Spool it out onto the floor -- the sheer abundance of yellow highlighter will be impressive.

[JustMel]

You can also have the GAL recommend a psychologist to evaluate your child and throw that weight behind the GAL.

[salparadise]

Often it is said that men usually suffer from Narcissistic PD and women from borderline PD but not everybody seems to think that that is the case. Possibly the traits in people with either PD are actually quite the same?

So much of it is nothing more than semantics and labeling, and the DSM-IV is not helpful in understanding the interrelatedness of disorders with it's purely behavioralist approach. I have come to regard 'cluster B' as the primary diagnosis with a named disorder describing the functional expression in the individual. Otto Kernberg [see chart] views the cluster B range of disorders as having an underlying borderline element (the degree of neurosis-psychosis) with the expression, or behavioral characteristics being determined by the severity of the borderline element combined with the degree of introversion-extraversion. It would be easy enough to add a third axis to the model to account for gender typical expression, but with expression being the determinant rather than gender. This would account for a correlation between certain diagnoses and gender without there necessarily being a bias in the uses of the label. In other words, narcissism might be associated with typically male characteristics [i.e. aggression or dominance], but that doesn't mean it is erroneously applied to males more often than females, only that it includes characteristics more often present in males, and could be accurately applied to either gender when those characteristics are present.

I find these two charts to be quite helpful in understanding cluster B disorders. The first is Otto Kernberg's showing the two axis model of the cluster B range, and the second is Theodore Millon's showing secondary characteristics seen in histrionics (bless their little hearts).

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[Melchizedek]

I don't think physical abuse from women towards men is very common and not as serious (apart from extensive, extreme cases) as the other way round simply because as the difference in strength and size. I don't many women would even try to physically hurt a man for that reason.

While that is the common view in society, studies suggest otherwise (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). An analysis of such studies suggests women are slightly more likely commit physical aggression, while men are slightly more likely to cause serious harm.

[salparadise]

Talk to people who know your judge. Does she want quick overviews? Lots of briefs before hand? Is he divorced, as well? Tailor your presentation.
Speak only highlights but have backup material if requested.
Ask for more than you think you can get, but make it reasonable: ask for her to go to counseling before she can get access to your child. Her reaction there might blow things up in your favor. >:)
Get your credit history printed out. Highlight everything she overspent on. Spool it out onto the floor -- the sheer abundance of yellow highlighter will be impressive.


You can also have the GAL recommend a psychologist to evaluate your child and throw that weight behind the GAL

My lawyer knows the judge very well, and I also know him casually from his lawyering days when his office was next door to my office. He is not bullshitable. He is not inclined to delve into minutiae and by his own word, views 50/50 as equitable unless there is convincing reason to deviate. All I want is 50/50 and intend to make the point, after discrediting her emotional reasoning, that with me only seeking an even share, that her unwillingness to compromise and refusal to negotiate or even acknowledge the two offers we have put forth (which gave her slightly more than half) is the only reason we are before court at all, and is evidence of her predisposition to try and dominate rather than cooperate.

On the finances what I intend to show are all the checks she wrote against my business account (most of which without filling in the amount on the check stub), the several large checks I wrote to pay off her credit card bills (with the agreement that she would close the accounts and we would have only one family credit card, which she then refused to do and lied about).

I am averse to bringing psychologists into the mix for several reasons:

It would likely require assessment of all three of us, which would be expensive It would delay the process. This would be bad for me because she is buying my equity in the real estate. I want it and a custody order now, not a year or two from now. Psychologists are a wild card and I'm not inclined to roll the dice when I seem to be well positioned. I believe I can characterize her pretty well by testifying to specific behaviors and letting the judge draw his own conclusions. She blew up at the GAL and we will have her testify to that fact. I have a police report from an incident when she tried to keep me from taking our daughter with me to visit my brother. She admitted to slapping me in the face and claimed to the police it was because I spat on her, which I did not do. I called 911 after she slapped me and instead of talking to the operator I just held the cellphone as she screamed and cursed. I may even be able to get the recording of this into evidence.

[Lucky]

While that is the common view in society, studies suggest otherwise (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). An analysis of such studies suggests women are slightly more likely commit physical aggression, while men are slightly more likely to cause serious harm.

Unfortunately a number of women lie about their (ex) husband being violent and because of men having the name to be the violent people lots of people instantly believe these lies. And a lot of people don't believe the man when he says it is the woman who is the violent one. Because most people think that women can only be victims and men can only be perpetrators.
It is the same thing with invidelity. And women also do commit acts of sexual abuse, especially with their children it seems.

[Samoan Corleone]

Because most people think that women can only be victims and men can only be perpetrators.

That's Maury for ya. Maury Povich and David and Goliath clothing (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) are, well, they suck.

[Lucky]

That's Maury for ya. Maury Povich and David and Goliath clothing (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) are, well, they suck.

Yes, that is some macabre, horrifying stuff.

---------- Post added 02-03-2010 at 02:18 PM ----------

So much of it is nothing more than semantics and labeling, and the DSM-IV is not helpful in understanding the interrelatedness of disorders with it's purely behavioralist approach. I have come to regard 'cluster B' as the primary diagnosis with a named disorder describing the functional expression in the individual. Otto Kernberg [see chart] views the cluster B range of disorders as having an underlying borderline element (the degree of neurosis-psychosis) with the expression, or behavioral characteristics being determined by the severity of the borderline element combined with the degree of introversion-extraversion. It would be easy enough to add a third axis to the model to account for gender typical expression, but with expression being the determinant rather than gender. This would account for a correlation between certain diagnoses and gender without there necessarily being a bias in the uses of the label. In other words, narcissism might be associated with typically male characteristics [i.e. aggression or dominance], but that doesn't mean it is erroneously applied to males more often than females, only that it includes characteristics more often present in males, and could be accurately applied to either gender when those characteristics are present.

I find these two charts to be quite helpful in understanding cluster B disorders. The first is Otto Kernberg's showing the two axis model of the cluster B range, and the second is Theodore Millon's showing secondary characteristics seen in histrionics (bless their little hearts).

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Thank you for the charts Salparadise, very useful. You seem to be very well informed! But ofcourse you being INTJ it is to be expected.
I was just reading this article but I think it will not contain anything new for you: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

How are you feeling? All that you are going through and have gone through must be quite an ordeal?

---------- Post added 02-03-2010 at 03:50 PM ----------

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Borderlines are narcissistic--but you've also observed other problems, like; desperate attempts to gain attention, intense/irrational abandonment fears, lack of empathy, extreme jealousy, lying, poor impulse control, extramarital affairs, drug/alcohol abuse, hypersexuality, 'crazy-making' interactions, low self-esteem, rebound relationships, passive-aggression, cognitive distortion, self-harming behaviors, eating disorders, suicidal ideation, stalking, etc.

[Lucky]

Some more good articles about an other type of abuser, the narcissistic person.
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[salparadise]

Thank you for the charts Salparadise, very useful. You seem to be very well informed! But ofcourse you being INTJ it is to be expected.
I was just reading this article but I think it will not contain anything new for you: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

How are you feeling? All that you are going through and have gone through must be quite an ordeal?

Hi Lucky,
Glad to share the charts; they were something of a revelation when I discovered them.

I read the article you linked and some others on Ms. Schreibrer's site. You didn't indicate what you thought of the articles, but I believe she is a bit over the top. I really appreciate understatement and carefully measured words when it comes to psych, science, history etc. I felt Bernstein's Emotional Vampires was more about entertainment value than insightful discourse but it has rendered lasting impressions in many people's minds. At least he had the good judgement to indicate the flippant tone by using caricature drawings to illustrate. Maybe Ms. Schreiber is trying to give us a hint with the fuchsia typography. Seriously though, she does make a lot of sweeping generalizations and characterizes all borderlines and their 'victims' in quite an extreme manner. I see nuances and shades of gray [and now fuchsia] everywhere, and try to understand all people as unique human beings with both desirable and undesirable traits, strengths and weaknesses. Even borderlines. But I didn't see much depth or complexity in her characterizations. I'm sure you're asking you're asking the question, am I being critical because I'm a member of a group she characterizes and don't like the way I look in fuchsia? Well, certainly there is an element of that, no point in being in denial! I'm not saying she doesn't have valid point and insights, just that people are more than the product of such an experience, even though the experience become a part of them.

As for how I'm doing (and thank you for asking empathetically), I have been through quite a lot and probably have some lingering PTSD. I'm at least five years out from the point of realization, and have had three years of therapy. So it's not like I'm still feeling the pain on a day to day basis, but I do have regrets about having poured so much of myself and so many of my productive years into a bucket with no bottom, no appreciation for how much I tried, and that didn't need or want to be fixed. I have become fan of Eckhart Tolle and found that focusing on awareness of 'being', separately from, even while observing one's own egoic thoughts and motives, has been key to letting it go and being at peace. I have also practiced Albert Ellis' REBT, which I found quite helpful in dispelling irrational beliefs which underlie thought and and emotion. So I'd say pretty well overall. Emerged from the fog, feeling clear and refreshed, focusing on NOW and the future, less and less on the past.

[Lucky]

I am really glad for you that you are doing so well Salparadise. Yes, that article might be over the top. But me having a N mother myself I always had problems with finding my emotions that I stuffed very far en deep away. So sometimes it can be refreshing to read something emotional actually to give me the feeling that is is okay to have emotions. During my childhood it was never okay to have and show emotions. It would upset my mother and she would become hostile.
A friend of mine has some books by Toller, maybe I should borrow them.
My own husband was married for twenty years to a narcissistic/borderline woman and they have three children. I get the impression that he still has not overcome all anxiety and anger. Contact with his children is rather superficial, it might have to do with his ex wife but we can only guess. Maybe it does have to do with him and/or me, they do not tell.
It is hard to support each other when you are both suffering from the same thing, anxiety, pent up anger, frustration from the past.
This may sound crazy but I think my husband has a television addiction to numb his feelings. He is quite bossy and possessive with regard to the television.
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Most of the time he is either watching television or sleeping in front of the television. He suffers from insomnia during the night. And it seems he is always angry with his boss, he changed jobs a few times but that did not help. He saw a therapist for a short while but that did not help much at all. Sometimes I get quite edgy but ofcourse that does not help much either.
When I met my husband he was drinking and smoking like crazy and he also smoked pot. He entirely stopped smoking not long after that and he started drinking less. And not so much heavy liqeur anymore. So in that way he got a lot better but I think he has still not overcome the trauma of his former marriage.