Howard Zinn 1922-2010

[LaoTzu]

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If you have never read A People's History of the United States (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), I suggest it to you.


RIP Howard Zinn.

[RBM]

Participatory government ! What a concept !! /end sarcasm

It will happen when the species advances to a certain point. And no, I don't know when that point will be.

Meanwhile we will muddle along, in that general direction.

[jhbowden79]

Participatory government ! What a concept !!Participatory government is a joke. It enforces conformity without unanimity. DemSoc means that if 51% of the people want things one way, then we get a Universal Comprehensive Plan, a one size fits all solution. There are trillions of economic transactions occurring every day, and there is no time for a deliberative body to discuss each transaction, let alone vote on them. This is why participatory government -- soviets, i.e. workers councils -- always becomes tyrannical in practice. Power inevitably gets handed off to bureaucrats to realize the Common Good. The economy is too complex.

On the other hand, if we decouple politics from economics, we can have unanimity without conformity. A conservative, market-based approach allows everyone to customize their own life. I listen to Brahms, you listen to Britney, and everyone's happy. A conservative government ultimately is an umpire which enforces only ground rules. A progressive government -- "participatory democracy," "libertarian socialism," or whatever red euphemism is in fashion these days -- by necessity will become a Nanny State, if not worse.

[LaoTzu]

Not necessarily JB. You see only two choices, I see a myriad of possible compromises.
It's a mistake to think that giving a bit of room to your opponent will ultimately lead to your downfall. Put into a corner, there's only one way for them to get out... bargaining in good faith, you can at least keep up appearances, and have more control over possible outcomes.

There is such a thing as a 'middle ground'.

I've never considered whether Zinn represented himself as a Commie or a Socialist... I just see individual ideas, and the notion that People are meant to be served by Government, not the other way around.

In deed... that's how it works where I live.


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[jhbowden79]

Lao--

You claim you see a myriad of possible choices, and there is no such thing as a middle ground. If there is no middle ground, then we're stuck with two choices. It looks like I may have discovered an obvious contradiction. What am I missing?

I don't want bureaucrats controlling my life "outcomes." I'd rather be the author of my own life, even if this entails more risk. Why do you disagree?

[LaoTzu]

Nobody's controlling my outcomes... but it's sure nice to get something back for what I put into it.


BTW: you should re-read what I wrote there.

[dogwoodlover]

Fuck, what a bummer. Zinn was the man.

[owly]

Tragic. An excellent human being.

[khadi]

A conservative, market-based approach allows everyone to customize their own life. I listen to Brahms, you listen to Britney, and everyone's happy.

This disregards history and context. It implies that everyone is "on equal footing", that certain among us don't explicitly benefit from maintaining the status quo at the expense of others.


RIP Howard Zinn. Let's hope this blip of media attention furthers your reach.

[jhbowden79]

It implies that everyone is "on equal footing", that certain among us don't explicitly benefit from maintaining the status quo at the expense of others.A capitalist approach suggests just the opposite-- different strokes for different folks. We have different starting positions, different tolerances for risk, different tastes, different preferences-- it is the bureaucratic, one-size-fits-all solutions that cause mischief.

BTW, why scarequote "equal footing?" That is, after all, what socialism assumes-- we all have the same needs, the same wants, et cetera. We're all going to be identical, sexually androgynous worker-bees sacrificing for The Common Good in one great progressive hive. But empirically, there is no reason to believe in human equality. Your scarequotes were merited, but they undermine what Zinn preached.

And I thought INTJs were supposed to be against conformity and bureaucracy!

[Causa Mortis]

A capitalist approach suggests just the opposite-- different strokes for different folks. We have different starting positions, different tolerances for risk, different tastes, different preferences-- it is the bureaucratic, one-size-fits-all solutions that cause mischief.


Without equality of opportunity, capitalism is not a just system. Of course we're going to finish the race at different times and places based on effort and talent, but if someone gets a huge head start then that's not terribly fair. Ergo why I whole-heartedly support public provision of education and health care.

[MCM]

JB, let's agree that he's no philosopher but he did some good work

[LaoTzu]

^seconded.

[jhbowden79]

if someone gets a huge head start then that's not terribly fairINTJs supposedly like science, technology, innovation, initiative, and supposedly don't like SJ bureaucracy, red tape, and sentimentality. I wish this stereotype was true!

Of course capitalism isn't fair. But do we really believe socialist bureaucracies are less unfair?

For example, if a new technology gets developed, only a few will have it at first until economies of scale develop. Under capitalism, the rich get the goodies first. But the rich in effect are subsidizing the development of the goodies, not the working class taxpayer, and goodies become available to everyone as businesses bargain down the price as they compete for market share. This is why, pace creepy Marxists like Howard Zinn -- who had blind faith the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer-- even citizens of modest means are swimming in tech today.

When government is in charge, things get rationed, and there is no incentive to develop anything new. The rich and the powerful can still jump the queues can get elite servicing. Health care and education are not exceptions. Pittsburgh has more MRI machines than Canada. But America has government education, and it contains huge inequalities. Caring for The Common Good hasn't mended broken systems. That's because socialist systems aren't actually broken. They're fixed-- frozen, immobile, and unadaptive.

[Aronnax]

There's a difference between starting a race 100 yards behind and 10 miles behind. The advantage of wealth cannot be eliminated without creating a mountain of problems but it is possible to mitigate the disparity without placing an excessive burden on society. In fact, by providing access to specific resources, such as education, you can increase the pool of talent and overall worker productivity, providing a net benefit to society.

If you don't agree with me on the point of education bring me some empirical evidence demonstrating that public education is a net burden to a society. Find a nation that doesn't have government provided education but still has a robust middle class. Hell, just find me a nation without some form of public education that has a high GDP.

[LaoTzu]

When government is in charge, things get rationed, and there is no incentive to develop anything new. The rich and the powerful can still jump the queues can get elite servicing. Health care and education are not exceptions. Pittsburgh has more MRI machines than Canada. But America has government education, and it contains huge inequalities. Caring for The Common Good hasn't mended broken systems. That's because socialist systems aren't actually broken. They're fixed-- frozen, immobile, and unadaptive.

You aren't going to start that shit again are you?

WTF does Canada need to be keeping pace with MRI's for? There's a 10th the people here dude!
There's so many in one place in the US because people are selling a service... which you think is a benefit of a capitalist system. Good for you! Enjoy!
The sad fact is that you have excess capacity... and waste.
There comes a point where having MRI machines getting dusty isn't a good thing. Then you have to CREATE demand. Supply-side Yippie!!! Lets waste resources on bullshit....and convince people they need them! You ever wonder why Americans are the most heavily medicated bunch on the planet!!?? It's got nothing to do with necessity...

It's got nothing to do with access... it's from living in a culture that says MORE MORE MORE!!! There's never enough. Hell...saying "enough" is downright un-American!
In the case of MRI's, you seem to think it's rationing when your doc says 'we'll see the results in a couple weeks...' "HELL NO! I WANT THE RESULTS NOW!!!" ... uhmm.... 'there's really no difference when they come in, this isn't an emergency; just exploration.' "I WANT IT NOW!"

Do you think there is no capitalism in Canada?? Come on now... Like I said to you before, there is a middle way. It doesn't have to be one thing or another. You can mould your society to fit your needs and keep your neighbours satisfied...everyone is happy; without prozac. (just a cheap generic equivalent)

That's actually what Zinn stood for. Becoming active, and moulding Government to fit the needs of the people as a whole.
Like I may or may not have said previously.... I never considered whether or not Zinn was a Socialist. He just made sense on whatever it was he was talking about at the time.