The Great Romance Stories

[blueback]

I was watching Tristan&Isolde last night and at about the half-way point I had to pause the movie, turn to my room mate, and expain why the movie sucked. Once I'd gotten that off my chest it cleared my head to realize something; great romance stories are written for women.

Now, I should mention that I don't think there's anything wrong with women. Everyone has certain traits that are masculine and femenine in certain proportions. For example, masculine traits are: assuming everything is debateable, supreme self-confidence, aggression, etc. femenine traits are: self-doubt, empathy, focus on one's emotions. It's a complicated topic because it might sound mysogenistic.

I don't want this to go too long, so I'll jump to my conslusion.

Women and men think differently. That much is obvious but it also means that it is hard to analyze because I am doing it with a man's mind. It's hard to think in a way you've never thought before. While watching T&I I realized that it was pissing me off because the entire story was just a vehicle for the emotions felt by the two main characters. There is absolutely no sense at all in the factual events in the story. It assumes that women were treated as equals in the middle ages, not like pets. It assumes that the King of Ireland, who has successfully subjugated the island of Briton, is also a horrible strategist. It assumes that a successful king, in a very small castle, would be unaware of a secret entrance to his economic, political, and military center of gravity (his castle). It assumes that the world revolves around princes and princesses. The two main characters demonstrate through their actions that they are so stupid, arrogant, and short-sighted that if they hadn't been born as royalty they never would have done anything interesting.

The movie assumes that everyone acts only based on what will make them feel best at the moment. Which, I'm sorry to say, I associate with most of the women I've known. The biggest "ah ha" I had was that Tristan (the guy) thinks like a woman. He always does whatever makes him feel best at that particular moment. Sometimes that leads him down the path of maturity, but mostly it doesn't.

So, I realized that for women to enjoy these kinds of stories they must function in such a way that they make sense to women. Women always complain that they don't understand men but in this story the man thinks like a woman so it must be easier for them to get involved with the story.

If you want a contrast, watch Die Hard 4. The two female characters think and act just like men. They even mention it when the bad guy says that the daughter is acting just like her father. So, Die Hard 4 is an action movie targeted at men, so all the characters think like men because that makes it easier for us to get engaged in the story. In great romance stories all the characters think like women because that makes it easier for them.

Anywho, any thoughts on my little theory?

[thegnat]

First of all I'm not a huge fan of Tristan und Isolde myself. I'm not a big Wagner fan in the first place.

But as to your point of the great romance stories, I actually do have to agree with you.

If the men don't think/act like women, they act/think like women *want* them to. Which really isn't normal for men.

perhaps it is why women generally like romance stories and men don't. I think it is a valid theory. I say women generally like because I usually don't like them. Then again I'm not exactly mainstream especially for my gender.

[Solaris]

It's funny you should mention this. I was hiding from the world, trying to make sense of life, and decided to shut off my brain for a while the other night and turned on this movie (I'd never seen it). I did something I never do: I got up and went and did something else for probably 2/3 of the movie. I saw like the last 5 minutes of it, and was fine that I missed the entire middle after that first...I dunno, maybe half hour. I completely hated the movie. For clarification: I am a woman. But, I am an NT woman. Furthermore, those traits you listed as pertaining to gender stereotypes are just that, and I don't fit them. I do like chick flicks, but funny ones. I don't like ooey gooey love stories because I think they are all acting like idiots. I don't relate to over-emotional crap. The male lead was played by the same guy who plays Spiderman's best friend, and it's like he was just playing the same character. Also, it's such a Romeo & Juliet kind of thing, and I prefer to get that right from Shakespeare.

I can even get involved in love stories in which there is some sort of goal. In this movie, love was the goal...if there was a goal at all. That, I cannot seem to get behind.

So yeah, it sucked. It didn't suck because you are a guy though. It sucked because you are intelligent and not controlled by your emotions.

[Bossy Mom]

What about Moonstruck? This is one of my favorite movies. It is the only romantic comedy I like, except for "Babycakes." "Babycakes" is about a very overweight girl who "catches" the boy of her dreams (very unrealistic, but sweet).

Jane Austen can't be beat for her books; they have romance, but they're really about behavior. Every time I watch the end of "Sense and Sensibility" with Emma Thompson, I cry because I am so happy! Austen's books always end happily ever after, which didn't happen to her in real life. Jane Austen was an INTJ, and so is her most famous character, Mr. Darcy.

A dreadful romantic story is Dr. Zhivago. The movie is different from novel. In the novel, Dr. Z. "falls in love" with many women, not just two.

One story that I think is very romantic and tragic is of Heloise and Peter Abelard. It is truly heartbreaking!

[aelan]

Women and men think differently. *That much is obvious but it also means that it is hard to analyze because I am doing it with a man's mind. *It's hard to think in a way you've never thought before.
Not necessarily- people think differently; I think a lot of what is thought of as the difference between “women’s thinking” and “men’s thinking” is actually the difference between feelers and thinkers. *Not all women are feelers, and not all men are thinkers. *There’s also the fact that women and men are socialized differently, with women being expected to be more feeling orientated due to stereotypes, whereas men aren’t, and are therefore able to get away with being less conscious of emotions in general.

While watching T&I I realized that it was pissing me off because the entire story was just a vehicle for the emotions felt by the two main characters. *There is absolutely no sense at all in the factual events in the story.
and this is supposed to be “womanly”? *As a female who does not watch romance films, this sounds like it would get pretty boring and annoying, even if the content were different. *I need there to be some sort of sense to a movie for me to enjoy it- it has to be at least logically realistic for me to really get into it.

The movie assumes that everyone acts only based on what will make them feel best at the moment. *Which, I'm sorry to say, I associate with most of the women I've known. *The biggest "ah ha" I had was that Tristan (the guy) thinks like a woman. *He always does whatever makes him feel best at that particular moment. *Sometimes that leads him down the path of maturity, but mostly it doesn't.
I’ve never seen women this way- in fact, my overall impression has been that the stereotypically man is supposed to act this way (impulsive), whereas the stereotypical woman is supposed to be more responsible and controlled.

[Rei]

Haven't watched Tristan & Isolde yet, but I must admit I wanted to.

I'm a sucker for romantic comedies (Love Actually), dramas (the Illusionist)... but I hate romantic tragedies...
Romeo and Juliet made me want to strangle both of them.

When you say women, it really does depend on the person. Thought I agree that it is more common in women, the traits you mention do depend on personality... (I guess you could say essentially, that certain MBTI types are 'female types' and others are 'male types')

Which makes me think I should probably be thankful I'm an INTJ so I can understand males.

[cielo market]

A dreadful romantic story is Dr. Zhivago. *The movie is different from novel. *In the novel, Dr. Z. "falls in love" with many women, not just two.

The original or the remake? I've only seen the remake so far (with Keira Knightley, I believe) on... you guessed it: PBS.

Not to go on a tangent, but I what about Great Romance Songs? I've have always been blown away by the Goo Goo Dolls' Iris:

And I'd give up forever to touch you
Cause I know that you feel me somehow
You're the closest to heaven that I'll ever be
And I don't want to go home right now

And all I can taste is this moment
And all I can breathe is your life
Cause sooner or later it's over
I just don't want to miss you tonight

And I don't want the world to see me
Cause I don't think that they'd understand
When everything's made to be broken
I just want you to know who I am

And you can't fight the tears that ain't coming
Or the moment of truth in your lies
When everything seems like the movies
Yeah you bleed just to know your alive

And I don't want the world to see me
Cause I don't think that they'd understand
When everything's made to be broken
I just want you to know who I am

I don't want the world to see me
Cause I don't think that they'd understand
When everything's made to be broken
I just want you to know who I am

I just want you to know who I am
I just want you to know who I am
I just want you to know who I am
I just want you to know who I am


*swoons* :lovestruck:

[ShaiGar]

I was watching Tristan&Isolde last night and at about the half-way point I had to pause the movie, turn to my room mate, and expain why the movie sucked. *Once I'd gotten that off my chest it cleared my head to realize something; great romance stories are written for women.

Now, I should mention that I don't think there's anything wrong with women. *Everyone has certain traits that are masculine and femenine in certain proportions. *For example, masculine traits are: assuming everything is debateable, supreme self-confidence, aggression, etc. *femenine traits are: self-doubt, empathy, focus on one's emotions. *It's a complicated topic because it might sound mysogenistic.

I don't want this to go too long, so I'll jump to my conslusion. *

Women and men think differently. *That much is obvious but it also means that it is hard to analyze because I am doing it with a man's mind. *It's hard to think in a way you've never thought before. *While watching T&I I realized that it was pissing me off because the entire story was just a vehicle for the emotions felt by the two main characters. *There is absolutely no sense at all in the factual events in the story. *It assumes that women were treated as equals in the middle ages, not like pets. *It assumes that the King of Ireland, who has successfully subjugated the island of Briton, is also a horrible strategist. *It assumes that a successful king, in a very small castle, would be unaware of a secret entrance to his economic, political, and military center of gravity (his castle). *It assumes that the world revolves around princes and princesses. *The two main characters demonstrate through their actions that they are so stupid, arrogant, and short-sighted that if they hadn't been born as royalty they never would have done anything interesting.

The movie assumes that everyone acts only based on what will make them feel best at the moment. *Which, I'm sorry to say, I associate with most of the women I've known. *The biggest "ah ha" I had was that Tristan (the guy) thinks like a woman. *He always does whatever makes him feel best at that particular moment. *Sometimes that leads him down the path of maturity, but mostly it doesn't.

So, I realized that for women to enjoy these kinds of stories they must function in such a way that they make sense to women. *Women always complain that they don't understand men but in this story the man thinks like a woman so it must be easier for them to get involved with the story. *

If you want a contrast, watch Die Hard 4. *The two female characters think and act just like men. *They even mention it when the bad guy says that the daughter is acting just like her father. *So, Die Hard 4 is an action movie targeted at men, so all the characters think like men because that makes it easier for us to get engaged in the story. *In great romance stories all the characters think like women because that makes it easier for them.

Anywho, any thoughts on my little theory?
Pride and Prejudice.
Mr Darcy. INTJ. Written by a woman.

[OneBadMother]

I think the difference between typical men and typical women is exacerbated by the overwhelming S preference. Both S men and women tend to adhere more to shallow gender roles, though all of us have had it hammered into our brains one way or another. Ideologies change so subtly that it's hard to notice. A century ago women were considered meek and gentle, now they're considered bitchy and domineering. Even within our current ideologies there are conflicts. At any rate, I think the difference between S women and S men thinking is more pronounced than the difference between N women and N men thinking, and the difference between S women and N women quite great. Thus N women don't relate very well to typical romance stories.

[deicruxified]

if there are romance stories i "appreciate" it's "the city of angels" because of the cinematography and "there's something about mary" because it always makes me laugh. i enjoy tragedy most so a brownie point for "city of angels". umbrella idea of what i like about the two movies is more of how people would act if they are in love but not totally enjoying the love part of the movie per se.

[bucolic_]

A dreadful romantic story is Dr. Zhivago. The movie is different from novel. In the novel, Dr. Z. "falls in love" with many women, not just two.

The original or the remake? I've only seen the remake so far (with Keira Knightley, I believe) on... you guessed it: PBS.

Not to go on a tangent, but I what about Great Romance Songs? I've have always been blown away by the Goo Goo Dolls' Iris:


Haha...I always sing along when it comes onto the radio, but mockingly heh...It's actually a guilty pleasure song for me..

[cielo market]

A dreadful romantic story is Dr. Zhivago. *The movie is different from novel. *In the novel, Dr. Z. "falls in love" with many women, not just two.

The original or the remake? I've only seen the remake so far (with Keira Knightley, I believe) on... you guessed it: PBS.

Not to go on a tangent, but I what about Great Romance Songs? I've have always been blown away by the Goo Goo Dolls' Iris:


Haha...I always sing along when it comes onto the radio, but mockingly heh...It's actually a guilty pleasure song for me..
excellent. [smiley=smartass.gif]

[bucolic_]

A dreadful romantic story is Dr. Zhivago. The movie is different from novel. In the novel, Dr. Z. "falls in love" with many women, not just two.

The original or the remake? I've only seen the remake so far (with Keira Knightley, I believe) on... you guessed it: PBS.

Not to go on a tangent, but I what about Great Romance Songs? I've have always been blown away by the Goo Goo Dolls' Iris:


Haha...I always sing along when it comes onto the radio, but mockingly heh...It's actually a guilty pleasure song for me..
excellent. [smiley=smartass.gif]
no seriously, I like it... it's just embarrasing to admit it :P

[cielo market]

A dreadful romantic story is Dr. Zhivago. *The movie is different from novel. *In the novel, Dr. Z. "falls in love" with many women, not just two.

The original or the remake? I've only seen the remake so far (with Keira Knightley, I believe) on... you guessed it: PBS.

Not to go on a tangent, but I what about Great Romance Songs? I've have always been blown away by the Goo Goo Dolls' Iris:


Haha...I always sing along when it comes onto the radio, but mockingly heh...It's actually a guilty pleasure song for me..
excellent. *[smiley=smartass.gif]
no seriously, I like it... it's just embarrasing to admit it :P

you like the song. have a cookie. :blush:

[deicruxified]

iris is my theme song... my intj song lol

[Charlie Mc.]

Since someone brought up songs, this is my favorite romantic song. It is a old Scottish folk song called "When a man's in love." Can't really explain why, but i relate to this song better than any other romantic song I have ever heard. Maybe because it is all about actions instead of feelings.

WHEN A MAN'S IN LOVE


When a man's in love he feels no cold
Like me some time ago
Like a hero bold to seek his gold
He'll plough through frost and snow

The moon she gently shed her light
Upon my weary way
Until I came to yon sweet spot
Where all my treasure lay.

I knocked on my love's window saying
My dear, are you within?
And slyly she undid the latch
And slyly I slipped in.

Her hand so soft and her breath so sweet
Her tongue did gently glide
I stole my arm around her waist
And I asked her to be my bride.

Take me to your chamber love,
Take me to your bed
Take me to your chamber love
For to rest my weary head.

for to take you to my chamber love
My parents would never agree
But sit you done by yon Coal fire
And I'll sit close by thee.

Many's the dark and stormy night
I've come to visit you
Whether tossed about by cold winter winds
Or wet by the morning dew

Many's the night I've courted you
Against your father's will
But you never said you'd be my bride
So now my dear, sit still

For tonight I am going to cross the seas
To far Columbia's shore
And you will never ever see
Your youthful lover more

Oh are you going to leave me love
Oh pray what can I do?
I will break through every bond of home
and I'll go along with you.

Perhaps my parents won't forget
But surely they'll forgive
For from this hour my dearest dear
Along with you to live.

Then with a kiss, the ring's put on
The wedding it's gone on
From courtship's cares they are released
These two are joined in one.

[cielo market]

iris is my theme song... my intj song lol

you get a cookie too :3

[deicruxified]

you get a cookie too :3
yey-ness *glomp*

[Bossy Mom]

Males can be just as romantic as females (but they are a small number). My daughter went with a very romantic boy. She said he came on too strong -- he said he loved her on their second date (I told her he was just an immature and romantic teenager). She dumped him for that, and he was very hurt, but he has now found a girl just as romantic as he is.

[ShaiGar]

Aye, I'm extremely romantic myself, but I dump girls if i fall in love with them.

[Paul V]

I was watching Tristan&Isolde last night and at about the half-way point I had to pause the movie, turn to my room mate, and expain why the movie sucked. Once I'd gotten that off my chest it cleared my head to realize something; great romance stories are written for women.

Now, I should mention that I don't think there's anything wrong with women. Everyone has certain traits that are masculine and femenine in certain proportions. For example, masculine traits are: assuming everything is debateable, supreme self-confidence, aggression, etc. femenine traits are: self-doubt, empathy, focus on one's emotions. It's a complicated topic because it might sound mysogenistic.

I don't want this to go too long, so I'll jump to my conslusion.

Women and men think differently. That much is obvious but it also means that it is hard to analyze because I am doing it with a man's mind. It's hard to think in a way you've never thought before. While watching T&I I realized that it was pissing me off because the entire story was just a vehicle for the emotions felt by the two main characters. There is absolutely no sense at all in the factual events in the story. It assumes that women were treated as equals in the middle ages, not like pets. It assumes that the King of Ireland, who has successfully subjugated the island of Briton, is also a horrible strategist. It assumes that a successful king, in a very small castle, would be unaware of a secret entrance to his economic, political, and military center of gravity (his castle). It assumes that the world revolves around princes and princesses. The two main characters demonstrate through their actions that they are so stupid, arrogant, and short-sighted that if they hadn't been born as royalty they never would have done anything interesting.

The movie assumes that everyone acts only based on what will make them feel best at the moment. Which, I'm sorry to say, I associate with most of the women I've known. The biggest "ah ha" I had was that Tristan (the guy) thinks like a woman. He always does whatever makes him feel best at that particular moment. Sometimes that leads him down the path of maturity, but mostly it doesn't.

So, I realized that for women to enjoy these kinds of stories they must function in such a way that they make sense to women. Women always complain that they don't understand men but in this story the man thinks like a woman so it must be easier for them to get involved with the story.

If you want a contrast, watch Die Hard 4. The two female characters think and act just like men. They even mention it when the bad guy says that the daughter is acting just like her father. So, Die Hard 4 is an action movie targeted at men, so all the characters think like men because that makes it easier for us to get engaged in the story. In great romance stories all the characters think like women because that makes it easier for them.

Anywho, any thoughts on my little theory?

As some people said before me, it's not "targeted at women" and "targeted at men". It's "targeted at Feeling" and "targeted at Thinking (or a more primal/aggresive type of Feeling)". Gender stereotypes still exist, and will probably continue to exist for a long time because both complement each other. I don't like it, but it makes sense, and it works. For every T woman, there's a F guy, and the balance remains unchanged.

As it has also been mentioned before, movies and television are targeted at Sensing people (which are statistically more than Intuitive people), so they have to cater the stereotypes and tradition they love and uphold.

To tell you the truth, being different from everyone else and loathing the stereotypes is hard. I like all sorts of fiction (as long as they don't trigger any of my reading pet peeves), and specially fan fiction. This has led me to face hideous love stories, as well as wonderful ones. I don't regret reading the bad ones, because I managed to learn from them. Perhaps this movie has done the same to you.

[gebstone]

i have to confess, i'm quite a idealistic guy. in the sense of perhaps unrealistic ideals of love, life, how things should be done, etc. i dig the romance stories, emotions and characters. perhaps i'm not as fussy about minor details in the movies as you guys, especially bluebird. i'm as much an INTJ as anyone here, so in my opinion, personality types dont really matter. maybe in this aspect of my life (ie, watching romantic flicks), i tend to feel more and think less. well, who doesnt want to feel loved? :P

[Rohsiph]

I'm nearing the end of a class on the British Romantic poets right now. When learning about the biographical histories of many of the more important figures of the movement, I think the majority, or at least a significant portion, must have functioned by using Ni. Coleridge, particularly, seemed quite INTJ, and Shelley (just turned in a paper on one of his poems today) must have been an INFJ, if not instead an INTJ as well. Keats struck me as possibly working from Ni, but seemed to be more focused than Coleridge or Shelley--but, then again, he died in his early twenties.

Not scientific, but perhaps a little interesting for someone I hope.