Real World Relationship Example

[jwp4]

I have been chewing on this for a few days. This is a real post by my wife to a support board. She has never said any of this to me. A brief background summary of our relationship: Married 12 years (together 14), two kids, she is a stay at home mom/student. Her physical affair was with two men, the story below concerns her primary partner. No marriage counseling at this time, but we are both in individual counseling. Currently we are working on restoring the marriage.

Sorry that this is long.

So, when I ended my affair, I expected my affair partner to beg me to not leave, call me (at least once) and say how much he missed me, show up at my school (College) just to see me. Wrong answer! When we met so that I could tell him goodbye face to face, he seemed a little hurt, but I was surprised with how easy it was for him to "let me go". I was almost mad at the fact that he did not throw himself on me and sob like a baby - that I could not do this to him. It's almost humorous now to think about it, but it's true. I thought, how could we have shared such an intense physical affair for several months and it just all be over without an emotional outburst. Then I remembered one important thing, in my case it was the fact that my husband had sent him an email, closure for him. Then my affair partner called my husband (I was home at the time and it freaked me out to say the least). When I went downstairs it seemed as if the conversation was going really well. Afterwards my husband told me all the things my affair partner said about me and our relationship and how my affair partner said he would not contact me again. I thought, yeah right how can you not? But this has been almost 3 months and no contact.

Maybe the thought of my husband keeping a close eye on my phone activity or email activity has kept him from contacting me, maybe he is just scared of my husband, or maybe he just wants to have no contact because that would be the easy thing. Out of sight, out of mind. I do wonder though if he thinks of me, like I think of him. Yes I still have moments that I think about him and smile and miss all that we shared. But in reality it was not honest, it was not real (my experience). What my husband and I have is real and that is why we are working on it. I keep telling myself that and eventually it will be easier.

I want an INTJ perspective on her post NOT marriage advice (to make sure I'm not crazy).

* If this was you, what would be your reaction?
* Does anything appear or jump out as amiss?
* What concerns would you have if this was your partner?

[brewmaster]

* If this was you, what would be your reaction?
* Does anything appear or jump out as amiss?
* What concerns would you have if this was your partner?

Sorry man that sucks.

Q1: I would be mad enough that I would be teetering the line of irrationality. But most likely I would make it appear nothing was wrong.

Q2: Yeah, she's still attached to this guy emotionally.

Q3: Repeat.

[DeadSpace]

First thing that leaps out...is she read much more into the relationship than what was there...and she seems to want that kind of...dependence...or better words, that sense of being wanted. My reaction...pay more attention to her, rekindle the feelings that brought you together in the first place. Seems she misses some things and is seeking those emotions elsewhere...the sense of being wanted, desired, attractive.
My concerns...would be how to let her know she is still all those things to you that she desires, that she is desirable, attractive, needed, and wanted. That theres still passion for her. <~~Those would be my concerns...yours would be similiar...she feels she's lost something...created a fantasy within the affair to compensate for it...the wishful (wistful?) thinking that there was more to it than just the physical. Seeking a fulfillment of that type...most likely means she feels she's lost those where she's at now. That she's not particularly wanted or needed, desirable, attractive, etc.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

What strikes me the most about this post is the arrogance of the poster. She doesn't even entertain the thought that her lover just wasn't that into her and that's why he didn't have a problem leaving the relationship. She is ego-feeding throughout when she talks about him. She appears to require an ego massage and was getting it from her lover. However, she seems to be able to identify the affair as not honest although she doesn't seem to know exactly how it wasn't honest.

[Jgib5328]

I would be furious if this happened to me. It seems like your wife has absolutely no remorse for what she did, and if she could, it seems like she'd do it again. She seems to still have dependence on him and the fact that she wants the guy to contact her solidifies this point. If she was my wife and I chose to stay with her, which I'm not sure I would, I'd keep a really close eye on her from now on, but I also think that may ruin the marriage.

[rwyatt365]

I adhere to the "caged bird" theory of relationship, which is; if I keep a bird in a cage then it is not truly mine, it is my prisoner - if I open the cage and it flys away, then it was not mine to keep - if it elects to stay, then it is there by choice. I prefer choice.

So, if that scenario was me;
1) I would expect that my spouse wishes to be "elsewhere" and release her from the "cage" (marriage). I've been there before, and did exactly that.

2) Amiss? I'd surmise that my spouse has, and will continue to seek partners outside of the marriage - she doesn't seem contrite, just "discovered".

3) If I did #1, then I'd have no concerns - we would no longer be together. Otherwise, I'd be concerned about a repeat.

[gogurtdynasty]

I think that after putting a significant amout of energy into anything and then having to say "i'm done" can be a tough experience. It's like finishing an okay book... you enjoied it, at the time it seemed significant, you think back on it from time to time but you don't want to read it again

It's natural for her to fantasize about a portion of her life that she chose to say goodbye to

[Colette]

I adhere to the "caged bird" theory of relationship, which is; if I keep a bird in a cage then it is not truly mine, it is my prisoner - if I open the cage and it flys away, then it was not mine to keep - if it elects to stay, then it is there by choice. I prefer choice.

So, if that scenario was me;
1) I would expect that my spouse wishes to be "elsewhere" and release her from the "cage" (marriage). I've been there before, and did exactly that.

2) Amiss? I'd surmise that my spouse has, and will continue to seek partners outside of the marriage - she doesn't seem contrite, just "discovered".

3) If I did #1, then I'd have no concerns - we would no longer be together. Otherwise, I'd be concerned about a repeat.

I agree with this. She has behaved and spoken toward you in a way that is really callous and as someone else said, quite conceited. Consider if it's worth a future with someone who is capable of that level of callousness.

[jwp4]

I'm not crazy! I struggle with staying or leaving everyday.

For the full back story - by her own words visit:
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It is too lengthy to post here. Some of you don't plain care to read much more of my personal crap so visit the link if you wish. No need to comment on the back story.

[DeadSpace]

I'm not crazy! I struggle with staying or leaving everyday.

For the full back story - by her own words visit:
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

It is too lengthy to post here. Some of you don't plain care to read much more of my personal crap so visit the link if you wish. No need to comment on the back story.

Read it...does change my original analysis slightly, she does know it was a fantasy. But she still seems to be looking for emotions that do not seem to be part of your relationship with her. Add 'excitement' to the list, the descrip of how she felt meeting for the first time. It all seems pretty clear in both posts i've seen thus far. Staying with her...knowing what she's looking for...could you provide it? From both posts, it does seem she sees you, and your marriage as primary importance.

[PortInStorm]

Maybe I'm the bad person here, but I don't hear the conceit in her story. She says she knows it wasn't real, that you're really trying, that she's scared she could really lose you, she's trying to figure out what attracted her to the affairs.

It's not up to me to say you're feeling rightly or wrongly, but you asked what the perception was.

[Uytuun]

What struck me most was the discrepancy between the biggest part of the post and then the "But in reality it was not honest, it was not real (my experience). What my husband and I have is real and that is why we are working on it. I keep telling myself that and eventually it will be easier." part. Seems like it's glued on somehow, as in not spontaneously flowing from her pen, but something she has to remind herself of.

I haven't read the full story.

[Aurelia]

* If this was you, what would be your reaction?
* Does anything appear or jump out as amiss?
* What concerns would you have if this was your partner?


What I would respond to is that she seems to be so much more consumed with the reaction of her former lover than what damage the affair has done to her marriage. While she recognizes that the affair was just sex, it's almost as if she wishes the other man felt more than just that.

Your wife seeks a relationship to fill some kind of void within herself. My concern is that since she doesn't verbalize understanding of that, she'll continue to seek extramarital affairs to fix her underlying sense of powerlessness (feeling unloved, unwanted, unworthy or frightened). It's nothing you or anyone else can give her. Until she deals with those emotions how can she end those obsessive thoughts? She can never be truly committed to you until she begins to deal with the fact that she is not living life in a way that is meaningful and fulfilling. It's not about the other man or even your marriage to some degree. She has unresolved issues. Very similar to a conversation I had with nluvw1. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[AnandaMeansBliss]

what is her type? ESFP?

[rwyatt365]

I read the full story and I'm sticking with my opinion. My thought is that she's holding on to the "sure thing" 'cause she got caught. Isn't it interesting that she volunteered nothing until you "got wise" (or did I misread he post?).

[Solaris]

I admire that you and your wife are trying to work on the marriage, but I just couldn't. For me, once trust is broken (especially to that extent), it can never really be mended. I have yet to read the post at the link, but from what you've said so far, she is mainly regretful that she wasn't fought for even more (possibly something she wanted from you also). If somebody goes out on you like that once, it's easier to do it again. Would she have come clean if she hadn't been caught? Has she said? Do you believe her?

I completely understand that you are probably feeling extremely on the edge of....something, but you don't know what, because it's so many things.

[SeaCzar]

I was in this situation, sort of, from the other side. After my divorce, I met a woman and we had a two month affair. She was from another (US) state, married, with kids, upper middle class, etc, and traveled quite a bit. For whatever reason, at this particular time, she was in my area almost every week. The sex was great, made better actually by the feeling that this was not something I had ever done, and was wrong. It was a selfish indulgence, and gave me a wonderful guilty feeling (that's the best description I can find).

I was the one that ended it. I guess I have a strange set of principles, but I felt like the situation was not "right". The end of my marriage was terrible, but I did not resort to screwing around. Given the do onto others concept....

She was more put off than I, albeit not by much. Looking back, it was fun while it lasted, but I am glad that its over, and it will not be repeated.

* If this was you, what would be your reaction?

1). The only thing I can say here is that I hope you truly love your wife. If you do, you will have a tough time putting this behind you, but you may find its worth it. Should this ever happen again, its time to walk away.

* Does anything appear or jump out as amiss?

2). Something is clearly amiss. You'll have to find out what drove her to the affair to begin with and fix the problem.

* What concerns would you have if this was your partner?

3). See 2. Having been on the "other side" of this, it is remarkably easy to do (although, as stated, I would not have done this if I were still married). If you both really want your marriage to work, it can. You must be sure its worth it.

[Colette]

I
I was the one that ended it. I guess I have a strange set of principles, but I felt like the situation was not "right". The end of my marriage was terrible, but I did not resort to screwing around. Given the do onto others concept....


What about the feelings of the woman you had an affair with? Did these mean anything, at the point you decided to 'pull the plug'?

[Provoker]

This is my perspective based on your post:

1) My reaction: Your wife is self-centered and has a huge amount of pride. She was offended that the affair partner was not eager to contact her. She was probably turned on that the affair partner had the balls to confront you on the phone. This probably added to the fantasy and naughtiness of it all.

2) There is something existential about your wife. Her thoughts suggest she is living on a line that divides fantasy and reality. Also, you said she had an affair with two men and I think this is dangerous: It demonstrates that she is disposed to this sort of thing. An affair with one man can be forgiven (behaps she wanted to tempt her conscience into doing something so to have the feeling of being alive and not a robot that goes through life) and then the person never does that again. But an affair with two men. This tells us that she has not learned from the past and her moral compass aparantly sucks.

3) My first concern would be trust. Accordingly, if one can't trust a person then one becomes paranoid and suspicious. As one becomes more suspicious and begins to ask questions or display insecurity this will be relatively unattractive and make her more likely to desire other men. It's a vicious cycle. However, due to her overwhelming pride, I think you just need to join a gym, up your extraversion a few notches, and increase your social status or popularity and it will have a refreshing effect on the relationship.

It's just like the water-diamond paradox: Water which is essential to our sustenance costs virtually nothing. Diamonds are completely useless (besides in tool and die work and whatnot) and they are extremely expensive. Why? Diamonds are much more rare and harder to extract...the principle is that all value is measured by cost. If you can demonstrate that you are more valuable than these other scoundrels I think it can help.

[SeaCzar]

In response to Colette:

I have had a lot of strange/mixed feelings since I posted this. While she did not want the affair to end, I did. I felt as if I was doing a wrong/bad thing. She was not so inhibited, and could not see why I wanted to end it. For me, it was something that was destined to no where. If the roles were reversed, and I her husband and found out, I'd be furious, even more so inasmuch as kids are involved. On her end, I think that the only emotion involved was surprise. If anything, I felt rather guilty/dirty about the whole thing. Bottom line: when on of the partners involved is married, having no intention to be otherwise, gratuitous sex is like gratuitous violence--its uncalled for.

[jwp4]

I would like to thank each of you personally, but there is too much to cover. What I needed was an external analytical engine to help get this crap straight in my head, and you guys/gals performed flawlessly. This was the only thing in my life that I didn't have a "contingency" plan for. Needless to say, I have been mentally grinding on this for about 4 months (and getting nowhere). Things are much clearer and I can organize this to make a rational decision. My internal analysis engine has been operating more like a mental blender.

So here we go. All of what I'm about to write is referenced around "at this point in time". This is a brief summary of what I gained from your posts.

My wife has a malleable conscious that can be changed depending on the external factors in her life. This differs from an INTJ's well-formed conscious. While she is working on reconciling, she doesn't seem to be remorseful for the affairs, but rather that she was caught. This could be attributed to the feelings that she felt during the affair period (analogy - reading a good book), or she isn't remorseful at all (think -Bridges of Madison County). It would seem that she has to remind herself that the affairs were wrong and a fantasy.

My wife's personality more than likely contributes to an overly optimistic world view. She appears to acknowledge that the affairs were at least fantasies because it was about being pursued and not things like mortgages, kids, snoring husbands :) that exist in real-world relationships. She appears to recognize the difference. Her optimism might be preventing her from seeing the real damage caused by her actions, so it is possible that her focus on reconciling is overshadowing her internal contemplation (morally) of what transpired. I have no idea what her personality type is but it is very close to ESFx (from my reading last night).

The real threat to our marriage is that my wife has some unresolved internal conflicts that empowered her to seek the attention from other men (in this case). These are her internal struggles and she will find emptiness in most things that she does until she resolves/undertstands what those "voids" are. Like a wolf that has tasted human blood, it is very likely that she will continue to seek extramarital affairs. It does appear that she is more conflicted about the affair partner than our marriage (to some extent).

Typical of INTJ's, I'm stabile and successful. This creates a "safe" place for my wife. Good for my wife, bad for me. The question was posed, "could I give her what she found in the affairs"? I guess the answer is no. I can learn to be more concerned, open, and patient (...continue list here...) with her (and I have been working on this), but I refuse to compete with a fantasy. Additionally, It's not like my personality has changed since we met, but I have modified my behavior to be accommodating in something as shared as a marriage. This is a question I need to pose to her also - Knowing who I am, can she be satisfied with that.

The extent of the affairs (multiple men/length of time) might have created an unrepairable breach of trust in the relationship (from an INTJ perspective). Given that fact that I had to discover the details, up to and including the message board posts, damages the already low amount of I trust I have for her now. The future of the marriage depends (from my part) on whether or not I can "look past" this behavioral discrepancy (as far as I know was a onetime event). Reflecting on her posts, it seems I get one story, but she also has another story to tell. Maybe that is her healing mechanism (heck, I'm doing that here with you all, but with a consistent message I hope). I do believe that her continued emotional fence-sitting will force my hand to the dissolution of the marriage in short order.

Thanks for the input. Back to the mental grind.

[DeadSpace]

There was a flip side to that, you only asked what you might do...what she needs to do is recognise how you are (INTJ) That while caring, loving her is part of you...showing it in ways she expects might not be possible, but that those emotions are still there. Stability...yes, fear in her statements too, that she seriously screwed up. The one thing i didn't see...is any reference by her to what she might have done to you by her actions. That may be part of the fear though...blocking out the guilt of what she did, divorcing herself from it in a way. Hope things work out for you in the way you want. Time might make things get abit clearer, for both of you...when the betrayel is less immediate. And emotions aren't quite so jumbled.

[Antares]

* If this was you, what would be your reaction?
* Does anything appear or jump out as amiss?
* What concerns would you have if this was your partner?


I'm rather inexperienced in romance and I can never put myself into a man's shoes, since I'm not, but I'll give my opinions. Please do not take offense if there is any to be found.

1. Firstly, my reaction was: Has it ever occured to her that her partner is just not that into her? That it was not you who's the reason she's not hearing from him? She is overconfident in herself and perhaps her attractiveness for the notion to be beyond her comprehension. Arrogance, really, to put it bluntly. See here, she's completely excluding the possibility that he might not like her as much as she wants him to, and made excuses for herself (such as blaming it on your supposedly tabs). I think she actually knows the real reason, but doesn't admit it to herself.

2. Well, she said that what you have with her is real and her fling is not, but judging from her attitude (or my impression of it), it doesn't seem like that she think it's somehow wrong that she's doing this to you. From what she thought of your marital relationship with her, however, these two seem to be conflicting ideas. She doesn't seem like she has a solid determination to end this. She hinted that she wants to, but the rest of her post shows that her will is shaky. Maybe she's having mixed emotions? Did you confront her about this post?

3. If I were her spouse (I'm 15 and my last boyfriend wasn't a serious one, so what would I know?), I would be surprised and angered by this post, but these emotions would be replaced by a plan as to what to do next. I would mentally prepare myself for the confrontation and the tactics of maintaining a cool and rational conversation with her (If she is really ESFx, then I don't want her aggravated and possibly running off). Maybe this is my lack of experience and the switch to 'analytical' mode is too fast (I would expect to be more emotional in a romantic relationship, but I just don't feel it right now), but this is what my imagination produced.

[jwp4]

I'm rather inexperienced in romance and I can never put myself into a man's shoes, since I'm not, but I'll give my opinions. Please do not take offense if there is any to be found.


If you hadn't posted you age, I would have never known. Thank you for your input, it was helpful.

The one thing i didn't see...is any reference by her to what she might have done to you by her actions. That may be part of the fear though...blocking out the guilt of what she did, divorcing herself from it in a way.

I think this it the one thing that is lacking in our recovery (on her part).

I read the full story and I'm sticking with my opinion. My thought is that she's holding on to the "sure thing" 'cause she got caught. Isn't it interesting that she volunteered nothing until you "got wise" (or did I misread he post?).

She thought that if she didn't say anything, it might just go away after I figured out about the firefighter. She underestimated an INTJs drive to figure things out. It took two months, but I know everything possible, except for the conversations/IMs/emails(I do have a few). The firefighter was easy, he's not very smart and posts his life on Myspace/Facebook. The other guy was tougher, but working in IT my whole life, I figured out who he was, too. It just took longer. I figured out about the firefighter on 13 Nov 2007. The accountant on 3 Jan 2008.

My wife really hasn't told me anything. Her back story post wasn't surprising to me, I pretty much knew all of that. It was the other post that pissed me off. I guess I need to let her continue counseling and see where that goes.

Is an ESFx bad for a INTJ? I keep thinking about the chinese zodiac placemats in Chinese food restaurants. You know, where it says "your an OX, don't marry the Monkey." I think I married...well you know, my opposite.

[PortInStorm]

Ah brother, welcome to the family of INTJs marrying ESFxs. See the thread in this section for all of our ... trials :-) Mine's ESFJ.