Extra Sensory Perception

[Antares]

I'm not sure if ESP fits into science or spirituality more, but since it isn't proven yet, I'm just going to stick to spirituality ;)

I was talking to my friend on the bus today about hallucinations, ghosts, dreams and apparitions. She shared one of her more shocking dreams with me. It was the night before 9/11 (not in New York. It was night in some other areas.) and her family was in New York. She dreamed of a band of terrorists shooting her family and she herself was shot. She was unable to run and on the verge of death, she woke up. She went down for a drink and noted the time. The second day she saw the news and the time she noted was exactly the time when the first plane flew into the twin towers.

I had a similar 'mystical' experience. I had a dream when I was quite young (I forgot exactly how young, but before I even heard of WWII). My dream was of the Holocaust and from a detached point of view, I saw uniformed soldiers shooting at a row of starved-looking men. A girl tried to escape but was shot at by a several soldiers. It was frightening (there were bloody, skeletal corpses everywhere), at least to my young mind at the time and after a couple of rounds of shooting, I woke up. When I looked at the images of the concentration camps while studying WWII a few weeks ago, I had an eerie sense of deja vu and the room I was in during the dream was almost exactly the same as the pictures; the uniformed men looked very much like the Nazi soldiers. I actually rationalized my dream at the time that I must have been dreaming of the Rape of Nanking, but it couldn't be right as none of the prisoners were Asian (but nonetheless, some of the Chinese were killed in a similar fashion).

I've never really experienced any other types of ESP, but I know people who have. I categorize myself as a naturalist and want to believe things like psi, but the almost impossible occurences point me to the supernatural. Do you believe or have explanation for ESP? Natural or supernatural are both fine.

[Colette]

I think perhaps you need to distinguish a little more; between ESP, deja vu, and prescience (all of which are apparently different, with their own explanations).

[Antares]

I think perhaps you need to distinguish a little more; between ESP, deja vu, and prescience (all of which are apparently different, with their own explanations).

What I mean was: Holocaust: Retrocognition? My friend's dream of 9/11: Precognition?

[lancelot]

What I mean was: Holocaust: Retrocognition? My friend's dream of 9/11: Precognition?


Some dreams are prophetic, they explain the past or the future.

[gogurtdynasty]

considering past present and future are simultaneous the idea of clairvoyant dreaming seems sensible to myself. Sometimes when you're that far into your mind you gain the ability to sense and create experiences that are far from your current vision of reality.

You may enjoy Jane Roberts!

[lancelot]

considering past present and future are simultaneous the idea of clairvoyant dreaming seems sensible to myself. Sometimes when you're that far into your mind you gain the ability to sense and create experiences that are far from your current vision of reality.

You may enjoy Jane Roberts!

In my religion, prophecy, word of knowledge, word of wisdom are the terms used. Also vision, revelation, dream etc.

When I speak of past, present and moving back and forth making connections, I am speaking of just consciencous.

I don't really think in a linear fashion. I don't know if everyone does this, but for me past, present and future are always on my mind at the same time.

[Antares]

I'm largely a skeptic when it comes to true psychic abilities. Say, what if it were only a coincedence that my friend had that dream? What if I'm drawing too much parallels between my dream and the concentration camps? I know some of this seems too good to be simply a coincedence, but I always have a need of having it explained before I can embrace it.

[Octavianus Caesar]

I have heard of stories of people before 9/11 sensing something was going to happen, up to a week or or more before. One woman would drive by the pentagon and saw a vision of destruction. Another one would just start crying everytime she pass it.

I had one with the Mall of GA in Buford. For a year everytime i would walk into the food court, I would have a sense of dread and a vision of the food court blown up, twisted metal, blood every where, screaming, ect. That happened 3 or 4 times i went there, then it stopped.

I found out around the time it stopped the Atlanta Terror Group was arrested for plotting destruction. I believe one of their targets was the Food Court of Mall of Georgia.

I also had a sense of 9/11 happening, i was in college at the time and had no access to a TV and from 8:30 till 10:00 or so my nose itched, I watched the time of when it started and ended it correlated with the time of the first hijacking to the last plane crashing. The same happened with OKC bombing, the time the truck was driven from its origin to its detonation my nose itched. Some reason there seems to be a connection between when my nose itched and those two events.

[Antares]

I had one with the Mall of GA in Buford. For a year everytime i would walk into the food court, I would have a sense of dread and a vision of the food court blown up, twisted metal, blood every where, screaming, ect. That happened 3 or 4 times i went there, then it stopped.

Wow. Those are some pretty unpleasant stuff to see. Does it ever bother you? I know my nightmares did, as much as I try to deny it to everyone around me.

[thod]

Lets get real, if you could see the future the stock market wouldnt exist. If you could remote view into the kremlin then we wouldnt need spies.

The advantages of ESP are so overwhelming that genetics would determine that we would all have the ability after a few generations.

Nor have we found any mechanisms within science to account for or to determine the existence of these abilities.

Perhaps its an INTJ thing. From the socionics site on INTJ's


ideas of reference (excluding delusions of reference);

odd beliefs or magical thinking that influences behavior and is inconsistent with subcultural norms (e.g., superstitiousness, belief in clairvoyance, telepathy, or "sixth sense"; in children and adolescents, bizarre fantasies or preoccupations);

unusual perceptual experiences, including bodily illusions;

odd thinking and speech (e.g., vague, circumstantial, metaphorical, overelaborate, or stereotyped);

suspiciousness or paranoid ideation;

inappropriate or constricted affect;

behavior or appearance that is odd, eccentric, or peculiar;

lack of close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives;

excessive social anxiety that does not diminish with familiarity and tends to be associated with paranoid fears rather than negative judgments about self.

[Antares]

Lets get real, if you could see the future the stock market wouldnt exist. If you could remote view into the kremlin then we wouldnt need spies.

The advantages of ESP are so overwhelming that genetics would determine that we would all have the ability after a few generations.

Nor have we found any mechanisms within science to account for or to determine the existence of these abilities.

Perhaps its an INTJ thing. From the socionics site on INTJ's

I didn't say I actually believe in it. I'm trying to understand it the best I could and gain perspective from those who do. I'm merely gathering more information to make a conclusion.

Besides... The descriptions you posted sounds like a schizophrenic nutcase than an INTJ.

ideas of reference (excluding delusions of reference);

odd beliefs or magical thinking that influences behavior and is inconsistent with subcultural norms (e.g., superstitiousness, belief in clairvoyance, telepathy, or "sixth sense"; in children and adolescents, bizarre fantasies or preoccupations);

Said above; I don't 'believe', merely skeptical.

unusual perceptual experiences, including bodily illusions;

Had hallucination once, but not sure how it has to do with INTJ. I know plenty of other types who have hallucinations.

odd thinking and speech (e.g., vague, circumstantial, metaphorical, overelaborate, or stereotyped);

Metaphorical? Hardly. I try to be specific and avoid stereotyping. In fact, I believe I do this better than many.

suspiciousness or paranoid ideation;

Never had that

inappropriate or constricted affect;

Don't think so.

behavior or appearance that is odd, eccentric, or peculiar;

Gee, it's a wonder I have friends at all :thinking: I was always the 'normal' one.

lack of close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives;

I'm not friends with my first-degree relatives except for my cousin. I prefer the company of my friends more. I have over 300 acquaintances from school (Only high school students and a couple of middle school students) and my friends of all degrees of closeness amount to about 50, with 4 close friends.

excessive social anxiety that does not diminish with familiarity and tends to be associated with paranoid fears rather than negative judgments about self.

Avoidant Personality Disorder?

[stasis]

Do you believe or have explanation for ESP? Natural or supernatural are both fine.
Not only have I never heard of a credible explanation for ESP, I've not seen solid evidence of it actually existing in the first place. And given what it is oft claimed to be, the phenomena should theoretically be establishable through scientific experimentation. It sounds like mystical whimsy to me - in the vein of believing in unicorns and faeries and glittering pots of gold at the end of the rainbow.

[BlueTopaz]

Look into Quantum physics and nonlocality:To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Here's a quote from that article:
Nonlocality has been invoked as an explanation for telepathy and clairvoyance, though some investigators believe that they might involve a deeper level of nonlocality, or what Bohm calls "super-nonlocality" (similar perhaps to Sheldrake's "morphic resonance" (1989)). As already pointed out, if nonlocality is interpreted to mean instantaneous connectedness, it would imply that information could be "received" at a distance at exactly the same moment as it is generated, without undergoing any form of transmission. At most, one could then try to understand the conditions that allow the instant appearance of information.

The alternative position is that information -- which is basically a pattern of energy -- always takes time to travel from its source to another location, that information is stored at some paraphysical level, and that we can access this information, or exchange information with other minds, if the necessary conditions of "sympathetic resonance" exist. As with EPR, the hypothesis that telepathy is absolutely instantaneous is unprovable, but it might be possible to devise experiments that could falsify it. For if ESP phenomena do involve subtler forms of energy traveling at finite but perhaps superluminal speeds through superphysical realms, it might be possible to detect a delay between transmission and reception, and also some weakening of the effect over very long distances, though it is already evident that any attenuation must be far less than that experienced by electromagnetic energy, which is subject to the inverse-square law.

As for precognition, the third main category of ESP, one possible explanation is that it involves direct, "nonlocal" access to the actual future. Alternatively, it may involve clairvoyant perception of a probable future scenario that is beginning to take shape on the basis of current tendencies and intentions, in accordance with the traditional idea that coming events cast their shadows before them. Bohm says that such foreshadowing takes place "deep in the implicate order" (Talbot, 1992, p. 212) -- which some mystical traditions would call the astral or akashic realms.


Psychokinesis and the unseen world

Micro-psychokinesis involves the influence of consciousness on atomic particles. In certain micro-PK experiments conducted by Helmut Schmidt, groups of subjects were typically able to alter the probabilities of quantum events from 50% to between 51 and 52%, and a few individuals managed over 54% (Broughton, 1991, p. 177). Experiments at the PEAR lab at Princeton University have yielded a smaller shift of 1 part in 10,000 (Jahn & Dunne, 1987). Some researchers have invoked the theory of the collapse of wave functions by consciousness in order to explain such effects. It is argued that in micro-PK, in contrast to ordinary perception, the observing subject helps to specify what the outcome of the collapse of the wave function will be, perhaps by some sort of informational process (Broughton, 1991, pp. 177-81). Eccles follows a similar approach in explaining how our minds act on our own brains. However, the concept of wave-function collapse is not essential to explaining mind-matter interaction. We could equally well adopt the standpoint that subatomic particles are ceaselessly flickering into and out of physical existence, and that the outcome of the process is modifiable by our will -- a psychic force.

[stasis]

Look into Quantum physics and nonlocality
To what end? The existence of the ESP phenomena (and precognition in particular) hasn't been scientifically demonstrated in the first place, which is probably the most significant problem with the idea given what ESP is usually claimed to be. It's something that should be directly testable with reproducible results across a series. Since it apparently turns out to be nothing as such, looking into physics isn't going to do anything.

[thod]

To what end? The existence of the ESP phenomena (and precognition in particular) hasn't been scientifically demonstrated in the first place, which is probably the most significant problem with the idea given what ESP is usually claimed to be. It's something that should be directly testable with reproducible results across a series. Since it apparently turns out to be nothing as such, looking into physics isn't going to do anything.

The previous poster takes the view that it is demonstrable. Now if I hypothesis that 8 of 10 cats prefer a particular brand of cat food I have to prove it. If I conduct enough experiments, whilst ignoring the negatives, I will get the result I want.

Take a look at the world.

If psychokinesis existed it would be huge evolutionary advantage. No need for bow and arrows. I would simply reach out and stop the heart of the prey animal. If precognition exists and I see I am going to fall under a bus tomorrow, I would spend tomorrow on a boat where there are no buses. If telepathy existed then we would have countless examples of people remotely talking.

To me the big problem is that we don't see any signs of the existence of these abilities. They are not subtle effects, the implications of these abilities would be manifest to everyone. The advantage they give so huge that someone without them would be hopelessly crippled preventing Darwinian evolution.

[rwyatt365]

OK, I'm going to break the INTJ mold here - hang on kiddies!! :stunned: :scared:

I know that there is no rational, or scientific explanation, or proof of ESP (or telekinesis, or precognition, or prescience), but those are things that I WANT to believe in! It's one of the mysterious things (like UFO's, and ghosts) that I think would be cool as hell if they really were real.

I have not theory to offer, or explanation to give. All I know is I wish it were true.

OK, you can begin the banishment ceremony now. :embarassed:

[stasis]

To me the big problem is that we don't see any signs of the existence of these abilities. They are not subtle effects, the implications of these abilities would be manifest to everyone. The advantage they give so huge that someone without them would be hopelessly crippled preventing Darwinian evolution.
It seems to me that a person could just as easily argue that ESP is the result of a very recent mutation and that the phenomenon therefore has not had time to manifest genetic dominance through processes of natural selection. Perhaps the trait was exceedingly rare in the documented past, or there is some computationally novel issue with the heritability of these traits, thus only now do they begin to come into expressive prominence and blah blah blah. If I recall correctly, the X-Men comic book storyline would be appropriately similar.

I think I end up agreeing with your opinion on the problem in any event. I would observe that there are no empirical signs of the existence of the phenomenon in the first place, that statistically significant multiples of scientific tests have failed to substantiate the popular claims, and moreover that a physical theory for the phenomenon does not apparently follow logically from modern science. So there's no empirical basis, there's no logical necessity, and the testing suggests that the concept is bankrupt. This is what puts it into the fairytale category. Dragons. Santa Claus.

[Antares]

OK, I'm going to break the INTJ mold here - hang on kiddies!! :stunned: :scared:

I know that there is no rational, or scientific explanation, or proof of ESP (or telekinesis, or precognition, or prescience), but those are things that I WANT to believe in! It's one of the mysterious things (like UFO's, and ghosts) that I think would be cool as hell if they really were real.

I have not theory to offer, or explanation to give. All I know is I wish it were true.

OK, you can begin the banishment ceremony now. :embarassed:

:stunned: Banishment? That's unthinkable! But seriously though. I really want to believe it. Sure, it would be cool, but from the lack of scientific support, I withdraw my doubt and place a tentative 'no' over it. If there is enough 'evidence', I would change my mind, but no sense in believing in it; it doesn't affect my life and the burden of proof is on the 'psychics' and not the skeptics.

[stasis]

Why would you two want to believe an apparent falsehood? Do you not value knowledge? What do you get out of this belief in particular? I don't understand.

[BlueTopaz]

To what end? The existence of the ESP phenomena (and precognition in particular) hasn't been scientifically demonstrated in the first place, which is probably the most significant problem with the idea given what ESP is usually claimed to be. It's something that should be directly testable with reproducible results across a series. Since it apparently turns out to be nothing as such, looking into physics isn't going to do anything.

Towards the end of reading something interesting. It's as simple as that.

Granted, all this falls within the category of unprovable, but so does string theory. In fact, doesn't the scientific method fail to disprove hypotheses? It doesn't seek to prove anything.

I've no desire to prove or disprove ESP. I simply thought that this was an interesting addition to the discussion.

[stasis]

Towards the end of reading something interesting. It's as simple as that.
Chemical geometry is also interesting to read. Much like physics though, it doesn't have much of anything to do with ESP. Perhaps the fantasy section in a bookstore would be more appropriate.


Granted, all this falls within the category of unprovable, but so does string theory.
String Theory is mathematically rigorous, it follows from established science, and it attempts to quantify testable phenomena. It's an untested theory at the moment and may eventually be falsified in its entirety, but it is not unfalsifiable and it is not comparable to ESP in the manner that you seem to suggest it is.

[BlueTopaz]

Chemical geometry is also interesting to read. Much like physics though, it doesn't have much of anything to do with ESP. Perhaps the fantasy section in a bookstore would be more appropriate.

Exactly.

[rwyatt365]

Why would you two want to believe an apparent falsehood? Do you not value knowledge? What do you get out of this belief in particular? I don't understand.
It's a latent desire to escape reality. To construct a fantastic existence and live in it, if only in my mind. It's the same escape that I get from watching or reading SciFi - being in an unreal place, with unreal experiences, performing unreal actions.

In this context, knowledge is of secondary import. It's the adoption of a fantastic premise and then carrying it to a logical conclusion. ("If I could move things with my mind, then...")

[BlueTopaz]

String Theory is mathematically rigorous, it follows from established science, and it attempts to quantify testable phenomena. It's an untested theory at the moment and may eventually be falsified in its entirety, but it is not unfalsifiable and it is not comparable to ESP in the manner that you seem to suggest it is.

In your opinion.

[stasis]

It's a latent desire to escape reality. To construct a fantastic existence and live in it, if only in my mind. It's the same escape that I get from watching or reading SciFi - being in an unreal place, with unreal experiences, performing unreal actions.

In this context, knowledge is of secondary import. It's the adoption of a fantastic premise and then carrying it to a logical conclusion. ("If I could move things with my mind, then...")
I understand the affinity for SciFi and imaginative escapism. I certainly share it. But actually wanting to believe something that I thought was apparently false would be distinct from my experience with that. When I become caught up in watching Star Trek TNG, or find myself immersed for hours in one of Heinlein's books, or something, I don't actually feel a need or a have a desire to believe something that I find to be untrue. I am well familiar with wanting to make something happen, to design something new in exploring possibilities and potentialities, but this requires dealing with what is true and rejecting what is false. And a desire to believe in the truth of something known to be false appears to conflict with a valuation of knowledge and with the process of deliberate invention.

To be clear though, I don't mean to portray you (or Antares) in particular as being one way or another. It's just that I have heard this "want to believe" sentiment before and I've always wondered about what prompts it the most often.


In your opinion.
NO U.

[gogurtdynasty]

To what end? The existence of the ESP phenomena (and precognition in particular) hasn't been scientifically demonstrated in the first place, which is probably the most significant problem with the idea given what ESP is usually claimed to be. It's something that should be directly testable with reproducible results across a series. Since it apparently turns out to be nothing as such, looking into physics isn't going to do anything.

Science is still making huge breakthroughs in the subject of the brain. I mean hell they are still discovering new roles for old systems... Though they understand major functions in the different areas of the brain they are still in the dark on subjects like How exactly we even manage to produce thought We cant reproduce consciousness and we can't reproduce it how well do we understand it?

And also there have been tons of people to legitimately study esp and have had great results and have written well documented books/publications on the topic but judging by your attitude i'd assume you've never even looked into the subject without a predefined sour opinion

[rwyatt365]

I understand the affinity for SciFi and imaginative escapism. I certainly share it. But actually wanting to believe something that I thought was apparently false would be distinct from my experience with that. When I become caught up in watching Star Trek TNG, or find myself immersed for hours in one of Heinlein's books, or something, I don't actually feel a need or a have a desire to believe something that I find to be untrue. I am well familiar with wanting to make something happen, to design something new in exploring possibilities and potentialities, but this requires dealing with what is true and rejecting what is false. And a desire to believe in the truth of something known to be false appears to conflict with a valuation of knowledge and with the process of deliberate invention.

To be clear though, I don't mean to portray you (or Antares) in particular as being one way or another. It's just that I have heard this "want to believe" sentiment before and I've always wondered about what prompts it the most often.
No offense taken. When I wrote "want to believe", it was more along the lines of "now, wouldn't that be cool", as opposed to "I have a fervent desire to believe...".

[rwyatt365]

Can I come back in and play with the others now? :undecided: :embarassed:

[stasis]

but judging by your attitude i'd assume you've never even looked into the subject without a predefined sour opinion
Indeed. To be honest, I don't look into most subjects without a predefined sour opinion of some kind. Predefined sour opinions r us. Sour, like a really bitter, tart cynical thing that tastes bad.

[BlueTopaz]

Stasis, I actually agree with you.
There seems to be an emotional component to your argument, as if the subject touched a nerve, but that may just be my ESP kicking in.;)

[stasis]

There seems to be an emotional component to your argument, as if the subject touched a nerve, but that may just be my ESP kicking in.
Yeah, Internet ESP is particularly untenable (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.). You're imagining it.

[gogurtdynasty]

:-P Stasis.. i must admit you're a funny little sour tart

[Lucid]

Someone mentioned that we were only beginning to understand the brain... and this is probably true. However, the idea of ESP has been around for a long time and has been tested for decades. All tests seem to indicate that the success rates of ESP success are no more than random. Meaning that if you sat and made guesses, instead of trying to use ESP, you would have the same amount of success.

With regard to precognition and dreams about a past event you know nothing about, I think it's usually something like the full moon phenomena. For years nurses in ERs have said that more weird cases and more cases period come in on the full moon because people act strangely on the full moon. So people started researching it and kept track of the number of cases, each type of case and the number of exceptionally weird cases (defined by the nurses) over a period of several months. The perception that weird stuff happened during the full moon turned out to be false. The nurses just remembered the cases that came in on the full moon more than the ones that came in at other times during the lunar cycle.

Similarly, dreams which happen before some event and which resemble some event at all are remembered and made note of because they seem to be prophetic. Dreams which have no resemblance to anything that happens later are usually forgotten or dismissed as just weird and random.

Dreaming something that happened previously but wasn't known by the subject is similar. In Antares' case I think it's possible that although she didn't know what the holocaust was, she may have seen pictures of it, or she may have heard adults talking about it. That may have been the cause of the dream.

The human mind has a tendency to look for patterns. This is the cause of shadows on your wall looking like faces, or the EVP phenomenon (which is laughable IMO). And I think it's also the cause of many of the ESP, precognition, past life regression mysticism. Also possibly religion.

But my intention is not to put down Antares. I've had similar experiences myself and wondered about it as well. Sometimes it seems too weird to be a coincidence.

Also, I agree with Rwyatt that it would be a lot more interesting if such things did exist.

Here's a link to the Skeptic's Dictionary (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) about ESP for anyone who's interested. :)

[Antares]

Dreaming something that happened previously but wasn't known by the subject is similar. In Antares' case I think it's possible that although she didn't know what the holocaust was, she may have seen pictures of it, or she may have heard adults talking about it. That may have been the cause of the dream.

The human mind has a tendency to look for patterns. This is the cause of shadows on your wall looking like faces, or the EVP phenomenon (which is laughable IMO). And I think it's also the cause of many of the ESP, precognition, past life regression mysticism. Also possibly religion.


This might be. I have been to the Rape of Nanking Memorial and saw many gory images of the victims; granted, the victims in my dream were all caucasians, but could it be that my mind plastered 'Jewish/Caucasian' faces onto the massacre victims? And European-looking officers in uniforms on the Japanese? I can see how that is very probable. Maybe I just dreamed of a Western version of the Rape of Nanking.

With regard to precognition and dreams about a past event you know nothing about, I think it's usually something like the full moon phenomena. For years nurses in ERs have said that more weird cases and more cases period come in on the full moon because people act strangely on the full moon. So people started researching it and kept track of the number of cases, each type of case and the number of exceptionally weird cases (defined by the nurses) over a period of several months. The perception that weird stuff happened during the full moon turned out to be false. The nurses just remembered the cases that came in on the full moon more than the ones that came in at other times during the lunar cycle.

I've heard of the 'full moon' thing. While the moon might have some gravitational effects, just because 'weird behavior' are more frequent during full moon doesn't mean the phase necessarily has to be the cause of them. Because of the myths surrounding full moon, it's possible that the superstitions might have some effects on the people. I don't understand though; full moon is simply when the moon is at a position where the half of it facing us can be seen as a full disc; I don't think that the reflected photons would have much effect on behavior, but however my knowledge is hardly enough to make such a judgment. The full moon phenomena is often used in arguments for astrology too.

No offense taken. When I wrote "want to believe", it was more along the lines of "now, wouldn't that be cool", as opposed to "I have a fervent desire to believe...".

I know what you mean. I would be so immersed in the world of Star Wars and Harry Potter that I wish 'the force' and magic were real. I was so into these stories that I can readily 'enter' those worlds and be in there for hours, which usually results in me zoning out on whatever I'm doing (usually talking about a boring subject with my friend, listening to Geometry lectures listening to someone ramble).

[Octavianus Caesar]

Wow. Those are some pretty unpleasant stuff to see. Does it ever bother you? I know my nightmares did, as much as I try to deny it to everyone around me.


It did and didn't, but because it happened for the short time i was there (a few hours, and if i saw a movie, obvious my mind was on the movie), it never really had the time to affect me.

At that time I went 3 or 4 times in that year, so the time between them was distant, unlike if i went everyday.

But the time i did not sense it, that bothered me more, because it was everytime and all of a sudden it was over. That left me more wondering why, then i read in the paper about the Atlanta terror group being arrested and then it all made sense why it stopped.





Octavianus Caesar added to this post, 9 minutes and 47 seconds later...

Lets get real, if you could see the future the stock market wouldnt exist. If you could remote view into the kremlin then we wouldnt need spies.

What i have experienced can not be said to be "seeing the future" but experiencing a present.

Like when i experienced those nose itching with OKC Bombing and 9/11 they were not future, but present.

The event in Buford, is a present thing as well, the site was living through the event that the terrorist had planned for it, so it is possible that that experience i was experiencing is a present experience even though it has not happened yet.

Which could also explain why people get a sense of a disaster at a certain place. Some how, the place is able to express its pain to people days or weeks before it happens.

The other possibility is that the physic ability from the ones who are planning it are some how projected onto the actual site, a form of conscience?

Then there is the so called "Mothman" that shows up at disasters days before it happens, warning people? The idea i think is that it is not a "future" act, but a present reality that has not taken place yet and some how it is warning people.

[Jgib5328]

There is no evidence for ESP, the dream you and your friend had are odd coincidences that could probably be explained. When you were young, you 'thought' you never heard of the holocaust, but you probably had overheard someone talking about it or saw something about it that you just can't remember. Also people tend to recreate memories, and exaggerate them, so you can't really put too much into that.

Nothing mystical exists in this world, everything can be explained rationally in some way (unfortunately).

[Lucid]

There is no evidence for ESP, the dream you and your friend had are odd coincidences that could probably be explained. When you were young, you 'thought' you never heard of the holocaust, but you probably had overheard someone talking about it or saw something about it that you just can't remember. Also people tend to recreate memories, and exaggerate them, so you can't really put too much into that.

Nothing mystical exists in this world, everything can be explained rationally in some way (unfortunately).

Agreed. It's kind of too bad. Although if there were mystical things in the world, we probably wouldn't be too excited about them anyway, since they would have always been there and we'd just be used to them. Like gravity. :undecided:

[TheLastMohican]

I also had a sense of 9/11 happening, i was in college at the time and had no access to a TV and from 8:30 till 10:00 or so my nose itched, I watched the time of when it started and ended it correlated with the time of the first hijacking to the last plane crashing. The same happened with OKC bombing, the time the truck was driven from its origin to its detonation my nose itched. Some reason there seems to be a connection between when my nose itched and those two events.

I know this is a heavy subject, but I couldn't help finding the "nose itch" correlation funny. Of all ESP symptoms, your nose starts itching? :laugh:

[Jgib5328]

I know this is a heavy subject, but I couldn't help finding the "nose itch" correlation funny. Of all ESP symptoms, your nose starts itching? :laugh:

Lol yeah Octavian, that's pretty silly. Did it ever occur to you that you nose just itched? I'm sure my nose has itched when serious events occurred around the world, it's called a coincidence. I'm sure I felt some other sort of minor affliction when serious events happened around the world, but it was just by random chance that it turned out that way, don't be fooled by 'amazing' coincidences.

[lancelot]

Not only have I never heard of a credible explanation for ESP, I've not seen solid evidence of it actually existing in the first place. And given what it is oft claimed to be, the phenomena should theoretically be establishable through scientific experimentation. It sounds like mystical whimsy to me - in the vein of believing in unicorns and faeries and glittering pots of gold at the end of the rainbow.

People have talked to me about my past, present and future(private things only I know about). We don't call it ESP. We call it word of knowledge or word of wisdom. I believe in it because people have used that gift while talking to me. Other people I have talked to claim I have used the same gift while talking to them. It is used to edify someone or eplain something about their life they are struggling with or need help with.

I think there is an accident outside I need to go out and look. See you later
I heard the sound of the crash(Not ESP) I am going outside to see if anyone is hurt. Thank God,... No one was seriously hurt.

Back to text

When the Zodiac Killer reported to police specific details about how he killed his victumes(super X,Western Ammo,position of bodies etc,), he was immediately acknowledged as the actual killer. These details being revealed are the line of reasoning used in law enforcement; for example, regarding a crime sceen, details spoken by a suspect can be used as evidence to convict him in a court of law; In the case of the Zodiac killer, what type of ammo he used. The details of a crime sceen are very unique, like an individual finger print, killers often reveal these details in interogation; because the crime sceen details are so specific they cannot be described by quessing.

On a more happy note, when a prophet speaks briefly regarding personal details of a person's life, or speaks about a particular situation in a person's life, why should he/she not be believed? the prophet reveals details only the listener knows about.

Ps. I am not talking about where 1,000,000 words are spoken and only 10 of them are relevent(Anyone could do this). I mean personal specific details, that are at the heart of someone's life.

The Word of Knowledge, and the Word of Wisdom are gifts from God; these gifts are used to bring about healing and restoration.

[Beery Swine]

Dude, I have fantasies all the time about being as strong as the Hulk, having telekinetic powers that make me, for all intents and purposes, a God, super speed and reflexes, control over every mind on the planet, a 3-foot penis, reality altering abilities... I want all those things to be true (maybe not the 3-foot part, that was just 4 lulz) but I know that its nothing but imagination. As a kid I used to believe that it was only a matter of time before I got my hands on a magic lamp with a genie inside who would grant me 3 wishes.

Fox Mulder from The X-Files had a poster that said "I Want to Believe." I would rather know. And now some quotes from a couple a dead guys smarter than me:

I'll believe anything, no matter how wild and ridiculous, if there is evidence for it. The wilder and more ridiculous something is, however, the firmer and more solid the evidence will have to be.
Isaac Asimov

It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Carl Sagan





Beery Swine added to this post, 1 minutes and 38 seconds later...

Lancelot, dude, just google "cold reading."

[Moriarty]

Cold reading.

[azelismia]

Dude, I have fantasies all the time about being as strong as the Hulk, having telekinetic powers that make me, for all intents and purposes, a God, super speed and reflexes, control over every mind on the planet, a 3-foot penis, reality altering abilities... I want all those things to be true (maybe not the 3-foot part, that was just 4 lulz) but I know that its nothing but imagination. As a kid I used to believe that it was only a matter of time before I got my hands on a magic lamp with a genie inside who would grant me 3 wishes.

Fox Mulder from The X-Files had a poster that said "I Want to Believe." I would rather know. And now some quotes from a couple a dead guys smarter than me:

I'll believe anything, no matter how wild and ridiculous, if there is evidence for it. The wilder and more ridiculous something is, however, the firmer and more solid the evidence will have to be.
Isaac Asimov

It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Carl Sagan





Beery Swine added to this post, 1 minutes and 38 seconds later...

Lancelot, dude, just google "cold reading."


I have that poster from the x-files. I keep chickening out on bringing into the office though. (a office entirely comprised of esfj's, I'd never hear the end of it adn they'd probably force me to take it down, it's not worth the effort) You can get them on ebay.

[lark7]

The work of quantum physics has been interesting me in the last couple of months. Especially the ideas coming forth around its interaction with humans and communities. No one can deny the obvious complexities of the world, there must be a science hidden behind them. Quantum physics is the first to attempt to unite all of the sciences, no small task. Research complexity science as well, you all might find some interesting nuggets.

[Genuine]

There is a good chance that it's all a good coincidence, although I'm always open to new ideas. ;)

My experience of a premonition:
I remember having a premonition of my grandfather's death. I saw my grandfather in my dreams, and next day I got an e-mail telling me he was dead...
Turns out my mother had the same dream as well.

Also I am good at guessing what colors are going to appear next... if that has anything to do with it.
Maybe I subconsciously figured out a pattern?
Well it's a fun test if you want to try it out.

Psychic color test: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[lancelot]

Cold reading.


"Word of Knowledge" or "Word of Wisdom" are not related to 'cold reading'

[Latte]

I've experienced things a multitude of times which could be interpreted as ESP (excluding the vague stuff that could be explained as a coincide).

However, I recognize how easily memories are changed and how one cannot truly be sure whether one is in control of what one is experiencing/think one has experienced or whether one is being played by subconscious processes for something lame like protecting/boosting one's ego or that's merely malfunction in some way.

I have an idea of how it could be possible which would also explain why testing failed to such an extent which doesn't as far as I know come at odds with physical laws or have any flawed logic. I'm not keen on writing a long wall of text on something I'm not finished grasping in a completely clear manner myself and which I merely see as one of many possibilities though.

I guess in the end I do not care all that much... the only thing I can know with certainty in my existence is that I experience what I experience. To interpret the experiences in the context of each other, weaving them together to a seemingly coherent perception of reality is somewhat of a continuous process. It's probably tempting to in frustration stop that process, and proclaim that it is never-ending and that one will ultimately never figure things out, or instead of seeking to understand more, hide behind the illusion of knowing things, feeling comfort in believing and leaving it at that. I hope only to continue to grasp more and more, with the effect of eliminating possibilities and see new ones. In some years my view of things will probably look quite different than it does today.

Excuse me for the long semi off-topic text.

[Octavianus Caesar]

Lol yeah Octavian, that's pretty silly. Did it ever occur to you that you nose just itched? I'm sure my nose has itched when serious events occurred around the world, it's called a coincidence. I'm sure I felt some other sort of minor affliction when serious events happened around the world, but it was just by random chance that it turned out that way, don't be fooled by 'amazing' coincidences.

It happened when the OKC bombing happened and 9/11, started when it started and ended when it ended. Otherwise, i would agree with you.

[TheLastMohican]

It happened when the OKC bombing happened and 9/11, started when it started and ended when it ended. Otherwise, i would agree with you.

What about the Madrid and London train bombings? Any itching then?

[Moriarty]

It happened when the OKC bombing happened and 9/11, started when it started and ended when it ended. Otherwise, i would agree with you.

The CIA would love to meet someone like you. Despite the intelligence resources of an entire superpower nation, those attacks were successful.

Next time your nose itches, give them a call. You'd be doing your nation a disservice if you didn't.

[Octavianus Caesar]

What about the Madrid and London train bombings? Any itching then?

I do not recall, I think that happen when i was a sleep.





Octavianus Caesar added to this post, 1 minutes and 38 seconds later...

The CIA would love to meet someone like you. Despite the intelligence resources of an entire superpower nation, those attacks were successful.

Next time your nose itches, give them a call. You'd be doing your nation a disservice if you didn't.

Yeah, the only problem is i was unaware of them taking place.

I was in 9th grade when OKC happen in World History class.
I was in College when 9/11 happen in World Religion class. I did not find out about 9/11 till 12:30 or 1PM that day.

[Moriarty]

Well, now that you know what to look for, keep a journal of some sort! Keep detailed notes of exactly what itches, where it itches, rate it from 1-10 in intensity. Make note of whether or not you're able to relieve it by scratching.

Example:
Slight itch (rating 3) outside of left nostril. Single pass of fingernail relieved itch. Conclusion: domestic terrorist planting nitrogen fertilizer bomb outside of federal building.

or:

Major itch (rating 8) deep inside right nostril towards septum. Inserted finger, no relief. Twisted finger while inserted, no relief. Pinched nose repeatedly with slight relief, but itch returns within *4* seconds. Every *4* seconds, itch reappears with previous intensity. Conclusion: *4* hijacked airlines used as guided missiles inbound to major metropolitan structures. (This is a code RED itch, so immediate notification of appropriate authorities is required.)

If you keep detailed notes, you'll eventually have a systematic pattern that you can share with the FBI/ CIA/ NIA/ DHS. You can make it all cloak and dagger so the loonies eavesdropping on your conversations (and they *will* be eavesdropping) won't be tipped off.

Example:

(You dial up the Pentagon War Room, and the man with the deep voice answers)

"This is...Uncle."

"Uncle, this is...schnoz. I'd like to give my regards to my dear aunt Sally." (Translation: Osama Bin Laden is on the New York Subway disguised as a pregnant pantomime. The fetus is actually a canister of deadly carbon monoxide gas.)

"Your Uncle will pass along your message." (Translation: We'll get that bastard. Thanks for serving your country.)

I know it may seem like alot of arduous work, but man, you've got to think of the children. Do the right thing, son. Do the *patriotic* thing. We're all counting on you.

[Octavianus Caesar]

Well, now that you know what to look for

I love your sarcasm :thumbsup:

[Moriarty]

I love your sarcasm :thumbsup:

Thank you. It's been honed to a fine edge by years of cynicism and disappointment.

[eMachine]

This thread made my nose itch. :stunned:

I used to frequent "psychic reading" chatrooms years ago and I will occasionally pop in to check them out now, usually just to observe the "readings" and the people in general, I don't usually say much. I have received a few readings myself, generally they mean nothing at all to me. Except one that I sometimes still contemplate.

I was pregnant with my daughter at the time. A "medium" offered to give me a reading and I said "Sure. Why not?"... She proceeded to tell me that she had my "father figure" with her, I told her that my father was in fact alive and sleeping at that moment, so she asked me if I was close to one of my grandfathers. I was. She asked me if he had a "shaggy" dog. I said yes, he did. She said the dog's name was "Snooky", and I was amazed and agreed. She considered this an affirmation that it was indeed my grandfather that she was "connecting" with and told me that he said I was having a boy.

It came to mind a couple weeks later when I was talking to my older sister. She corrected me and told me that Snooky was our father's dog when I was a kid, but our grandfather's "shaggy" dog was named Bootsy.

I've always wondered how she pulled the correct name out of thin air like that. Everything else about the reading was "cold reading" undoubtedly, but I don't believe that Snooky is a common name for a dog, or is it?:thinking:

[lancelot]

It might seem like a small thing, going without food,yet I had not eaten for over a day. I know it's true the human body can go quite a while without food. Yet I was hungry and felt down, and knew if I could eat something I would feel better. The problem was neither myself or my friends had enough money to buy food. I don't remember praying or anything, I was just dreaming of eating something, when someone annouced they found money in their pocket, I reached into my pocket and also found money( money that was not there before) there were four of us and we all found money in our pockets that previously was not there. Between the four of us all sharing our money, we were able to eat until we were satisfied.

I lost my shoe while I was hiking in Malibu(So.Cal), I was trying to catch a water snake and I lost my shoe in a creek. I had to walk back to the car on hard gravel and rocks, I walked about half a mile and hurt my foot. When we finally arrived at the car, my friend noticed this family accross the highway had gotten their car stuck in the sand. We went over and pushed their car out of the sand; the man driving the car was so moved by our help he had tears in his eyes. It was worth the pain, just to see the look on his face when he said in his broken english, "thank you!"

It's the little things that we remember.





lancelot added to this post, 759 minutes and 7 seconds later...

I was listening to a young man speak, he told how he crossed into California from Mexico. He told how he was in a train yard and got his hand caught on part of the train. He tried to free his hand and cried for help for five hours. The sun was hot, and he was frightened of dying from dehydration. There was no one around, and out of disperation he prayed. He said within a few minuites a man came over and they worked together and eventually got his hand free.
The young man was very emotional, and thankful, the tramatic experience had changed his life. He felt he experienced a miracle, and the man who saved him was sent from God.



Ps. While crossing into California from Mexico, it is not unusual for people to die of dehydration, or after surviving the desert, there is the danger of drowning. Attempting to swim the All American Cannal is extreamly dangerous, the cannal is 82 miles long, and has a width of 150-700ft.,and a depth of 7-50ft. The cannal has claimed the lives of many people trying to find work in CA. and LA., ironically many drowning victums are found just 35 yards from the American border.

[Moriarty]

Is it reasonable to assume, based on the evidence, that the ones who died making the crossing weren't praying?

[Jakalwarrior]

The government was developing some sort of brain sensor to check for the human brain detecting things in its peripheral vision that it considers a threat, but for some reason doesnt relay to consciousness and then highlighting it in a visor. Perhaps the things your brain percieves subconsiously as threats but doesn't bring to your conscious attention account for some "gut feelings" when people feel as though they were saved by some extra sense etc...

"OMG that car almost hit me but at the last second I got some feeling that told me to slow down"

Other than that though, I just cant buy into something that would be so easily proven if it existed, but for some reason just can't stand up to testing.

[lancelot]

Is it reasonable to assume, based on the evidence, that the ones who died making the crossing weren't praying?

No, your assumption is not reasonable!

Many people in life threatening situations pray, yet this doesn't mean everyone who prays survives, nor does it mean everyone who doesn't pray
dies.

[Moriarty]

No, your assumption is not reasonable!

Many people in life threatening situations pray, yet this doesn't mean everyone who prays survives, nor does it mean everyone who doesn't pray
dies.

I think you're right.

In that case, it seems most reasonable to disregard whether people were praying or not because it's not relevant to their survival or death.

[lancelot]

I think you're right.

In that case, it seems most reasonable to disregard whether people were praying or not because it's not relevant to their survival or death.

No, I would not make that assumption.

...For example..

Not all children vaccinated survived the disease, and not all unvaccinated children died. Does the the above statement mean the vaccination did not save the lives of some of the children?

I am sorry the answer should be obvious, I am done with this debate!

[Moriarty]

No, I would not make that assumption.

...For example..

Not all children vaccinated survived the disease, and not all unvaccinated children died. Does the the above statement mean the vaccination did not save the lives of some of the children?

I am sorry the answer should be obvious, I am done with this debate!

I'm not debating you. I'm just curious about how you compile and process your information.

To draw a conclusion regarding the viability of vaccination, we could examine the mortality rates of children who have been versus children who have not been vaccinated. To get reasonably accurate data, you'd of course have to examine many, many factors such as geographical region, presence of communicable diseases, etc.

All things being as close to equal as possible, you could run an experiment in which you took two populations and vaccinated one against smallpox. Introduce smallpox into both populations. If the numbers of survivors is significantly higher one one side than it is on the other, it might give you some indication of whether the vaccination played an actual role or is just a matter of coincidence.

Once again, all things being equal as possible, introduce the same pathogen into two populations, neither of which have received a vaccine. One population is praying, the other not. Again, if the numbers of survivors is significantly higher on one side than it is on the other, you'd know if prayer/ sixth sense/ supernatural intervention or incorporeal agents of any kind came to the rescue.

You and I actually agree. The answer IS rather obvious.

[lancelot]

In Defense Of Prophecy Or Telling The Future, This should be a given!

Assuming there is a higher power, and this higher power is running the earth, universe according to a master plan,whether good or bad; it's not logical to assume that a mortal,human prophet would be all powerful, and all knowing. It is also not logical to assume, the prophet would speak or act according to his/ her own ideas or insights. It would stand to reason, the phrophet speaks or acts by direction of the higher power.

Therefore because the higher power, allows somethings to happen at one point in time. and may use a prophet to prevent or warn people regarding another event(and the prophet acts not according to his will but that of the higher power), we should not expect the prophet to know or warn people about every event that occurs.

In other words, because the higher power allows certain things to occur we can't expect the prophet to warn everyone about everything!

Therefore, we can't discredit a prophet for not fortelling, or warning people about certain events the higher power wants to occur. A prophet doesn't know anything the higher power has not made know to him or her!

[lostto]

I had a similar, very spooky experince years ago. Around 1981 a gasoline tanker truck blew up inthe Caldecott tunnel in the Bay Area, killing 6 or 7 people. It occured late at night. I went to bed and just as was drifting to sleep I suddenly sat straight up in absolute terror, with my heart pounding,in a fullblown adrenaline rush. My split second thought was an earthquake or intruder and then realized there was no danger. I thought "how bizarre, what on earth was that about?", and laid back down to sleep. I got up the next day, and when I heard the time that it happened I realized what the episode in my sleep was..it was profundly disturbing to realize I'd somehow caught or experienced the terror of the victims. I've always believed it was due to the twilight sleep stage I was in, that allowed for a perception in another usually inaccessible dimension. I was really excited to read of your friend's similar experience, because no one quite believed my analysis.

[Tactical Panda]

I can use my brain to estimate the right place on a computer to punch to get it to work.

Seems like extra sensory perception... but minus being interesting because everyone has a brain.

[RBM]

I can use my brain to estimate the right place on a computer to punch to get it to work.

Seems like extra sensory perception... but minus being interesting because everyone has a brain.

Are you being sarcastic, obtuse or just ignorant ?

If the last, here's a Wiki definition:

Extrasensory perception (ESP) involves reception of information not gained through the recognized physical senses but sensed with the mind.

You make no mention or recognition in your comment about other sense organs involved in that process besides the organ of the brain.

Is that all transparent, thus nonexistent to you ?

[lostto]

I was so excited about responding to your friend's, I'd not read further, into your own pefunctional rsonal experience...and strangely enough, my only. Other possibly supernatural experience was also Holocaust- related. I lived in Germany as and infant and toddler, while my Dad was an Army md stationed there. My very earliest, fuzziest memories are of the multistory army housing blocks there, and playing around them with my older sisters. For as long as I can remember I had a memory or picture in my head of being in a basement bunker, with rubble piled about a opening and a machine gun propped on it. We lived there just 15 yrs after WW2, so I believed this was a bunker in ruins from that, with an non-functioning relic gun abandoned there. I mentioned this to my Mom when I was 15 and was astounded to hear it never happened. Since then I've often wondered how I got the picture so vividly in my head.

[Tactical Panda]

Are you being sarcastic, obtuse or just ignorant ?

I am being deliberately unimaginative.

Did you want me to comment on my hearing to detect which components of the computer are running?
Or the vibrations that alert me to if the computer is mostly active?

If you do, I would be confused.

I was aiming for uninteresting and banal.

[RBM]

I am being deliberately unimaginative.

Did you want me to comment on my hearing to detect which components of the computer are running?
Or the vibrations that alert me to if the computer is mostly active?

If you do, I would be confused.

I was aiming for uninteresting and banal.

Bull's Eye !!!!!!!!!!

So, out of curiosity, what is the value of a comment here of that type ? Who is to derive utility from it ? What utility do you derive from it ?

[Purgatid]

I don't think ESP or any other psychic ability would dominate genetically, even if they exist.

Evolution does not see a need and fullfill it. It gives individuals with certain traits a greater chance to survive, or a greater chance of having offspring. If ESP doesn't do that, then nature leaves it alone. If it lessens the chance, then those who have it, dies or get fewer kids.

If we ponder for a moment that ESP does exist. Let's say precognition. Most people who claim to have it are unable to prevent distasters from occuring by warning others, they're also unable to prevent themselves from ending up in the disaster. What use is your knowledge of a terrorist attack if you realize that the dream you had was true, only when you're inside the burning building and see the same images as your dream? It would have zero function, hence give zero extra chance to survive, and be passed on just as likely as say, having blue eyes.

Now, ponder telepathy, or rather - the ability to read minds. If this can be utilized so that you have a significantly greater chance to survive - when would that be? When someone tries to kill you? Hardly anyone dies from that. When someone tries to cheat you? Fine, but there are those who can read body language and they are equally good at detecting lies, so no significant benefit there either. In the end, your telepathic ability, impressive as it may be, gives you no benefits above others. It'd be far better if you were born with nice tits. That would get you into a lot of social circles and would definatly guarantee more offspring. So the telepathic ability would not dominate.

How about telekinetic powers? Well, so far, no one has demonstrated an ability to chuck a car across a town or similar things. At the most, those claiming they have the ability can make a rubber quiver on a table. They might be able to move a cup half an inch. Well whopee doo. How would that increase your ability to survive? Or attract the opposite sex? There might be people impressed by it, but I find it unlikely that your partner will base their opinion on you on weither or not you can move a glass half an inch. In this case as well, you'd be better off with nice tits. It would ensure survival (others will protect you) and it will ensure children (people will want to fuck you).

So, in all cases I can see, nice tits outweigh psychic abilities. ESP would not dominate evolutionary, because it grants no utility, and it grants no additional attraction from the opposite sex. And that is if it exists, which no one has been able to offer even a smidge of evidence for.

Do I believe it exists? Well, I don't know any physical law that prevents say... Precognition. Sure, you'd have to be able to forsee a lot of things people would deem unforseeable - but are you prevented from forseeing it? Of course not. How about telepathy? Well, again, no law prevents information from passing from one human being to another. Perhaps one brain emits one pattern of X and another picks up on it. I really have no idea how it would work, but I cannot see a law that prevents it. So, yeah. Telekinetics? Well, we can move things. Magnetic fields can move things. Heat can move things. Electromagnetism can move things. So sure thing, if one individual can provide the necessary force, then the cup can be moved.

Do I believe any of this?

I do not. While absence of evidence does not imply evidence of absence, neither does simply claiming shit exists imply that it does. I see no reason to believe in ESP because I see nothing suggesting that it exists. I believe in other "hard to believe" issues, but this is not one of them.

[RBM]

I don't think ESP or any other psychic ability would dominate genetically, even if they exist.

Evolution does not see a need and fullfill it. It gives individuals with certain traits a greater chance to survive, or a greater chance of having offspring. If ESP doesn't do that, then nature leaves it alone. If it lessens the chance, then those who have it, dies or get fewer kids.

If we ponder for a moment that ESP does exist. Let's say precognition. Most people who claim to have it are unable to prevent distasters from occuring by warning others, they're also unable to prevent themselves from ending up in the disaster. What use is your knowledge of a terrorist attack if you realize that the dream you had was true, only when you're inside the burning building and see the same images as your dream? It would have zero function, hence give zero extra chance to survive, and be passed on just as likely as say, having blue eyes.

Now, ponder telepathy, or rather - the ability to read minds. If this can be utilized so that you have a significantly greater chance to survive - when would that be? When someone tries to kill you? Hardly anyone dies from that. When someone tries to cheat you? Fine, but there are those who can read body language and they are equally good at detecting lies, so no significant benefit there either. In the end, your telepathic ability, impressive as it may be, gives you no benefits above others. It'd be far better if you were born with nice tits. That would get you into a lot of social circles and would definatly guarantee more offspring. So the telepathic ability would not dominate.

How about telekinetic powers? Well, so far, no one has demonstrated an ability to chuck a car across a town or similar things. At the most, those claiming they have the ability can make a rubber quiver on a table. They might be able to move a cup half an inch. Well whopee doo. How would that increase your ability to survive? Or attract the opposite sex? There might be people impressed by it, but I find it unlikely that your partner will base their opinion on you on weither or not you can move a glass half an inch. In this case as well, you'd be better off with nice tits. It would ensure survival (others will protect you) and it will ensure children (people will want to fuck you).

So, in all cases I can see, nice tits outweigh psychic abilities. ESP would not dominate evolutionary, because it grants no utility, and it grants no additional attraction from the opposite sex. And that is if it exists, which no one has been able to offer even a smidge of evidence for.

Do I believe it exists? Well, I don't know any physical law that prevents say... Precognition. Sure, you'd have to be able to forsee a lot of things people would deem unforseeable - but are you prevented from forseeing it? Of course not. How about telepathy? Well, again, no law prevents information from passing from one human being to another. Perhaps one brain emits one pattern of X and another picks up on it. I really have no idea how it would work, but I cannot see a law that prevents it. So, yeah. Telekinetics? Well, we can move things. Magnetic fields can move things. Heat can move things. Electromagnetism can move things. So sure thing, if one individual can provide the necessary force, then the cup can be moved.

Do I believe any of this?

I do not. While absence of evidence does not imply evidence of absence, neither does simply claiming shit exists imply that it does. I see no reason to believe in ESP because I see nothing suggesting that it exists. I believe in other "hard to believe" issues, but this is not one of them.

Actually there's lots of evidence. You obviously aren't aware of it, as you make clear in your comment.

MysteriousGnome posted a video, on this BB, of a Google Tech Talk with Dean Radin, who 'takes it to the skeptics', so to speak. If you don't know who that is then your lack of knowledge is understandable, as he is arguably the most active 'experimentalist' on the topic.

I've just started reading his 'Entangled Minds' in which he makes an evolutionary advantage argument among the others for 'Psi' which includes precognition.

[Seablue]

I had a similar, very spooky experince years ago. Around 1981 a gasoline tanker truck blew up inthe Caldecott tunnel in the Bay Area, killing 6 or 7 people. It occured late at night. I went to bed and just as was drifting to sleep I suddenly sat straight up in absolute terror, with my heart pounding,in a fullblown adrenaline rush. My split second thought was an earthquake or intruder and then realized there was no danger. I thought "how bizarre, what on earth was that about?", and laid back down to sleep. I got up the next day, and when I heard the time that it happened I realized what the episode in my sleep was..it was profundly disturbing to realize I'd somehow caught or experienced the terror of the victims. I've always believed it was due to the twilight sleep stage I was in, that allowed for a perception in another usually inaccessible dimension. I was really excited to read of your friend's similar experience, because no one quite believed my analysis.

Was the accident close to your home?

If it was, then I'll say that it's possible that you perceived some noise in the silence of the night, that your brain recognized instinctively as "very bad".

If you didn't live in the same town, then coincidence.

[AnaK]

I used to post on an Astrology site. Almost everyone there was convinced they were an "old soul" with psychic ability, but their predictions were almost always wrong. A new poster came on one night and said she had a bad feeling something terrible was about to happen. The next day was the huge Tsunami in the Indian Ocean. That poster never seemed to return. I replied that it was uncanny that she had that premonition, and all of the regular posters said it was no big deal because they were all psychic too, but I never saw any evidence of that.

[RBM]

I used to post on an Astrology site. Almost everyone there was convinced they were an "old soul" with psychic ability, but their predictions were almost always wrong. A new poster came on one night and said she had a bad feeling something terrible was about to happen. The next day was the huge Tsunami in the Indian Ocean. That poster never seemed to return. I replied that it was uncanny that she had that premonition, and all of the regular posters said it was no big deal because they were all psychic too, but I never saw any evidence of that.

I'm only a few pages into Radin's book 'Entangled Minds' but he's already told of a few out-of-the-blue anonymous precognitive premonitions at his hosted site, GotPsi.org, just hours before 9/11, for anecdotal value.

The Institute of Noetic Sciences also has the Global Consciousness Project (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) going:

The Global Consciousness Project (GCP, also called the EGG Project) is a parapsychology experiment begun in 1998 as an attempt to detect possible interactions of "global consciousness" with physical systems. The project monitors a geographically distributed network of hardware random number generators in a bid to identify anomalous outputs that correlate with widespread emotional responses to sets of world events, or periods of focused attention by large numbers of people.[1] The GCP is privately funded through the Institute of Noetic Sciences[2] and describes itself as an international collaboration of about 100 research scientists and engineers.

If I recall correctly, that tsunami event is part of their database of events.

[Phaze228]

Actually there's lots of evidence. You obviously aren't aware of it, as you make clear in your comment.

MysteriousGnome posted a video, on this BB, of a Google Tech Talk with Dean Radin, who 'takes it to the skeptics', so to speak. If you don't know who that is then your lack of knowledge is understandable, as he is arguably the most active 'experimentalist' on the topic.

I've just started reading his 'Entangled Minds' in which he makes an evolutionary advantage argument among the others for 'Psi' which includes precognition.

Please for fucks sake tell me the book doesn't actually argue for precognition with the same basic ideas from the book description
Can we sense what's happening to loved ones thousands of miles away? Why are we sometimes certain of a caller's identity the instant the phone rings? Do intuitive hunches contain information about future events? Is it possible to perceive without the use of the ordinary senses?

Many people believe that such "psychic phenomena" are rare talents or divine gifts. Others don't believe they exist at all. But the latest scientific research shows that these phenomena are both real and widespread, and are an unavoidable consequence of the interconnected, entangled physical reality we live in.

Albert Einstein called entanglement "spooky action at a distance" -- the way two objects remain connected through time and space, without communicating in any conventional way, long after their initial interaction has taken place. Could a similar entanglement of minds explain our apparent psychic abilities? Dean Radin, senior scientist at the Institute of Noetic Sciences, believes it might.

In this illuminating book, Radin shows how we know that psychic phenomena such as telepathy, clairvoyance, and psychokinesis are real, based on scientific evidence from thousands of controlled lab tests. Radin surveys the origins of this research and explores, among many topics, the collective premonitions of 9/11. He reveals the physical reality behind our uncanny telepathic experiences and intuitive hunches, and he debunks the skeptical myths surrounding them. Entangled Minds sets the stage for a rational, scientific understanding of psychic experience.

I'm only a few pages into Radin's book 'Entangled Minds' but he's already told of a few out-of-the-blue anonymous precognitive premonitions at his hosted site, GotPsi.org, just hours before 9/11, for anecdotal value.
Does he omit the wrong ones? Because a few people getting a hunch that something bad may happen on a particular day and getting it right...isn't evidence of anything. Mainly because, they get it wrong almost every other god damn day.

[RBM]

@ Phaze228

You'll have to cite the book description you are talking about for me to be able to answer you. Are you talking about this (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) site ?

[Phaze228]

@ Phaze228

You'll have to cite the book description you are talking about for me to be able to answer you. Are you talking about this (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) site ?

It was off Amazon. But the one you linked has a similar wording..
What if these speculations are correct? What would human experience be like in such an interconnected universe? Would we occasionally have numinous feelings of connectedness with loved ones at a distance? Would such experiences evoke a feeling of awe that there's more to reality than common sense implies? Could "entangled minds" result in the experience of your hearing the telephone ring and somehow knowing - instantly - who's calling? If we did have such experiences, could they be due to real information that somehow bypassed the usual sensory channels, or are such reports mere delusions?

[RBM]

It was off Amazon. But the one you linked has a similar wording..

Do you realize the use of the term 'entangled' is from quantum physics entanglement (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) ?

So what's up with your 'for fuck's sake' ? Your science more than a little weak ?

[Phaze228]

Do you realize the use of the term 'entangled' is from quantum physics entanglement (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) ?

So what's up with your 'for fuck's sake' ? Your science more than a little weak ?

Yes.
How is my science weak? He's trying to claim that it's evidence of entanglement when you know who's calling you. And that you have a bad feeling when your loved one is hurt from a far distance, which has happened numerous times in my lifetime and observed in others and it turned out, they were never hurt.
How does his science have any evidence? When the first claim is evidence more or less that we have a good understanding of who's calling us, and the second is evidence from my own observations that we have a wild imagination that is infrequently right.

[RBM]

Yes.
How is my science weak? He's trying to claim that it's evidence of entanglement when you know who's calling you. And that you have a bad feeling when your loved one is hurt from a far distance, which has happened numerous times in my lifetime and observed in others and it turned out, they were never hurt.
How does his science have any evidence? When the first claim is evidence more or less that we have a good understanding of who's calling us, and the second is evidence from my own observations that we have a wild imagination that is infrequently right.

Have you ever performed an experiment in a lab setting, grade school, high school, whatever ? Do you understand what experiments are about and what function they serve in the scientific method ?

You answered 'Yes' to knowing what QM entanglement is about. So what's the problem ? You got an ox being gored ?