The Cheater or the Cheated on?

[jwp4]

This recently came to the forefront of my life.

Do you think, as INTJ, we are more likely to be betrayed by our spouses, or the ones to betray them?

The primary affair types are emotional, physical, and one-night-stand. I would assume, we would primarily betray our loved ones with a one-night-stand, as the others just take too much effort. Our significant others would seek out emotional affairs.

I know that you cannot stereotype a person into a cheater/non-cheater, but our emotional detachment does make us more susceptible.

Thoughts?

[pavman]

This is probably an individual thing, rather than personality thing, but I am more likely to be cheated on mainly because I'm monogamous and I would never violate the trust in a relationship by cheating on my partner.

That being said, I don't think cheating in my life is a problem because I tend to go for women who are emotionally stable and mature enough not to cheat, with 1 exception in my past relationships. I also tend to keep my SO emotionally, and sexually, satisfied which I think is a big factor in this (especially the emotional satisfaction). Things like affirming the relationship via compliments and sharing my feelings, taking time out to be romantic in unusual ways, etc.

Of course, this is if I can get the girl to begin with ;o)

[Santana28]

both? i've been both. i think its equal opportunity with us.

it seems i tend to push guys to cheat because they feel immasculine(?) around me, and i have a tendency to treat the people i respect and care the most for the hardest. if i see someone as more talented and capable than others, i will push them to that level whether they appreciate it or not... and thats not an endearing trait in a female partner i suppose.

as far as cheating goes - i have no desire to "cheat," and i'm really unsure that its even possible. i have slept with other people during my relationships . so have they. we've been open about it, although it wasn't exactly encouraged. but if i love someone and i want to be with them, then i will be... no one else is going to dictate to me who i love. i don't do random hookups at all, and i dont go out seeking partners or the like. but life gets in the way sometime, and i'm not going to be the one to say "no."

so put me in the serial cheater/cheated on list :-P

[PortInStorm]

I really, really hate the concept of 'emotionally unfaithful', so sorry, you're going to get an earful. I hate it because it's so vague, so unrealistic, and so situation-based.
- vague: where does one draw the line that you've been too 'emotional' with someone besides your spouse?
- unrealistic: I've heard the guy who champions this say that you should never say anything worthwhile to anyone before you tell your spouse, or you're being unfaithful and detracting from your marriage. That's just a pile of crap, IMO. Somethings are more interesting to others than your spouse, and vice versa. What if you're bursting with excitement and your spouse it away?
- situation-based: so, it's OK for him to love some people from his past/present, but not others? So, mother, sister, platonic friend, teacher, mentor, are all OK, but he's being emotionally unfaithful if he shares things that he's involuntarily attracted to in any way?

I'm unlike a lot of women I've heard of, that are more devastated if their man loves another woman (but hey, loving his mom and sister are fine), but are ready to overlook a one-night fling and all the sex their partner had with other women before he met her (even though he was pretty sure he wasn't going going to marry the majority ie. he knew he wasn't sleeping with his future wife). This sucks- how can you control feelings as much as you can keep your pants on?

That's why cheating for me is physical. Did you have an orgasm with them, making out with them? Then you cheated. Nothing else is cheating, to me.

[sCara]

I have never cheated on anyone and I have never been cheated on, but I have always been the one to decide that a relationship has run its course and the time has come to move on.

[jwp4]

Lets just use wikipedia to define the affair types:

One-Night-Stand: The individuals participating in a one-night stand typically have not known each other long and have had minimal time to get to know each other before engaging in sexual activity. A one-night sexual encounter is not necessarily always a one-night stand; the crucial distinction is the expectation or intention that the relationship will not necessarily be extended beyond the initial sexual encounter

Emotional Affair: a relationship between a person and someone other than (their) spouse (or lover) that has an impact on the level of intimacy, emotional distance and overall dynamic balance in the marriage. The role of an affair is to create emotional distance in the marriage.

Physical Affair (my definition): I would say is similar to an emotional affair with reoccurring sexual encounters.

[PortInStorm]

Why would I let wikipedia dictate my morals? I'm not trying to be harsh, I'm usually not this irate, but this seems so irrational.

[jwp4]

Why would I let wikipedia dictate my morals? I'm not trying to be harsh, I'm usually not this irate, but this seems so irrational.

I only used wikipedia to define the affair types as to present a common understanding from which to discuss affairs. I don't disagree with what you posted. I would not call the things you were describing as emotional affairs either.

I personally had a one-night-stand - bar pickup. It was exactly as I could see myself cheating then and now. It served its purpose but was not worth it to me in the end (waste of time). I don't see myself doing it again (and it has been 11 years).

My wife on the other hand is a different story. She had two physical affairs last year. I like to call it her "crazy period". The initial reason? - You guessed it, I was emotionally detached. I don't know what her personality type is, but it is definitely one of those with irrational behavior problems ;)

I was just wondering if this is a common occurrence for us.

[PortInStorm]

Ya, after I posted, your wiki reference was probably foundational/shared definition- you know, the realization after being useful :-p

In answer to the original question- I was always more afraid of me cheating then my partner, and I could never see my husband having a traditional affair because he's an SJ, others' opinions are really integral to him, and he gets a lot of support from his family's undying love and loyalty.

I, on the other hand, know that I have really high standards, and I'm very pragmatic about getting what I need. However, I've learned how to get unfulfilled needs met when I can't get it inside the marriage- and so I hate that term emotional affair. You do everything you can to stay faithful and keep yourself sane by creatively interacting with friends, family, mentors, etc, and some bozo goes and calls you 'emotionally' unfaithful anyways. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

What do you think about your wife blaming her physical affair on your being unavailable emotionally? What was the reason for your physical fling?

[Santana28]

2ndtimestudent, i happen to agree with you on this one.

the way i see it - if you are in a relationship that is capable of lasting, it is with an equal who shares the same mindset as you at approaching life. to me, life is a challenge to be overcome - new things to learn, and experience, etc. part of life is our relationships with other people. i think there is nothing greater than a genuine, complete relationship with another human being - not just physically or emotionally, but everything. complete.

love, to me, isnt something that can really have a label and limitations strapped onto it. love is limitless and creative - once you restrain it, you have destroyed it.

i am not needy, and neither should my partner be. we should both be capable of handling ourselves, and interested in helping one another grow. i have said i'm basically incapable of jealousy because in honesty no one i have ever been with has been worth being jealous over. every man i have been with has been the picture of jealousy - they think they can control me, and it enrages them that i will let no man - no societal norms - no labels - bind my life and my emotions. if i love someone, i love them and make no excuses for it. if i love someone - not in a sleazy, casual, needy way - but genuine love - then if someone loves me, they should love what i love because it benefits me. i would feel the same in return.

"cheating" is too broad a term to be discussed without narrowing it down...and is totally reliant on the person who is defining it. some people might interpret it in other ways.

[jwp4]

What do you think about your wife blaming her physical affair on your being unavailable emotionally? What was the reason for your physical fling?

Typical of people who have affairs, they tend to lay the blame for the affair to the other partner to "justify" their behavior. My wife (and I) had to realize that contributing factors that lead up to an affair can never justify the personal decision to have the affair. The reasoning is that I didn't have a choice in her decision - she made it solely on her own to go outside the marriage. The truth is, I can be emotionally distant, but I'm working on that now.

I had my affair, because of the lack of sex in my marriage. I didn't communicate my needs though (and it wouldn't have mattered). So up until my wife's affair, I enjoyed a sexless marriage. She never knew about my affair.

All of this attacks my core principles of Loyalty and Trust, both situations.

[Santana28]

I had my affair, because of the lack of sex in my marriage. I didn't communicate my needs though (and it wouldn't have mattered). So up until my wife's affair, I enjoyed a sexless marriage. She never knew about my affair.

i was kind of in a similar situation. my husband was shunning my physical advances (and had been for years) and i finally reached a point where my emotions were getting the better of me, causing me to snap out at him and develop a severe resentment toward him which affected our life on various levels. now, looking back on things objectively, i see that it was a control tactic by him towards me. at the time i still wanted to believe that we could make things work, i just had to give him space and time and my resentful attitude was not helping things but only making them more difficult. so i chose to have an affair with a very good friend of mine. the affair was quite simply my way of coping with the current circumstances - and it worked. i stopped fixating on the sexual aspects of our relationship and was better able to examine the root issues which were causing the lack of sex. it may sound like i'm trying to justify myself - i'm not. the only part of the entire situation that i regret is the fact that i should have trusted my judgement that the marriage was broken on so many levels that i should have simply ended things vs. having an affair and trying to cope. i was just delaying the inevitable, and making things more complicated.

[DeadSpace]

This recently came to the forefront of my life.

Do you think, as INTJ, we are more likely to be betrayed by our spouses, or the ones to betray them?

The primary affair types are emotional, physical, and one-night-stand. I would assume, we would primarily betray our loved ones with a one-night-stand, as the others just take too much effort. Our significant others would seek out emotional affairs.

I know that you cannot stereotype a person into a cheater/non-cheater, but our emotional detachment does make us more susceptible.

Thoughts?

I've never cheated, though have had it happen to me, even to the cliche' of coming home early and there's my best friend and my girlfriend in bed together :(
I will never cheat, decided that very early in life, it's a completely selfish/base act with complete disregard for your (alleged) loved ones reaction. Not going to inflict that on anyone.

[Aurelia]

This recently came to the forefront of my life.

Do you think, as INTJ, we are more likely to be betrayed by our spouses, or the ones to betray them?

The primary affair types are emotional, physical, and one-night-stand. I would assume, we would primarily betray our loved ones with a one-night-stand, as the others just take too much effort. Our significant others would seek out emotional affairs.

I know that you cannot stereotype a person into a cheater/non-cheater, but our emotional detachment does make us more susceptible.

Thoughts?

I've always thought that INTJs are loyal to those they care most about and take their commitments seriously. Looking at it that way, I don't suppose many INTJs would be prone to cheating.

[PortInStorm]

It might be that we interpret those commitments differently? Or are more open to redifining them?

[Merle]

Has anyone writing on this thread been watching the show "In Treatment"? - it's about a psychologist... anyway, his wife had an affair and he has fallen in love with one of his patients but hasn't yet done anything physical - she is quite distraught about his falling in love with someone else but considers her own affair meant "nothing" - it was purely sexual - I'm so wrapped up in their little blame game - I tend to side with her, I think I would be more hurt by emotional infidelity than by purely physical infidelity.

[jwp4]

I've always thought that INTJs are loyal to those they care most about and take their commitments seriously. Looking at it that way, I don't suppose many INTJs would be prone to cheating.

This is very true to me personally. I struggled with my own betrayal of my wife. Even though my one-night-stand was essentially void of all intimacy (except for the physical act), it was amplified by the fact I betrayed my core values.

I guess in the end, as humans, we can be driven to do things that even run contrary to our core principles. What matters is how often will we violate our inner consciousness. I trust myself never to make that mistake again. It is emotional baggage I get to carry around now. It bothers me less now, but I'll never forget it.

[Colette]

I've always thought that INTJs are loyal to those they care most about and take their commitments seriously. Looking at it that way, I don't suppose many INTJs would be prone to cheating.

I'm not advocating cheating at all (I'm opposed to it), and have been cheated on in the past. It hurts. However I agree with the last poster that sometimes I think people do it, despite their best intentions, and in breach of their own 'moral code'. Unfortunately we are mammals as well as humans, and I think sometimes the heat of passion takes over, and dispels rationality entirely. That is why, I think, it can sometimes be forgiven, provided that it doesn't become habitual behaviour.

[Aurelia]

This is very true to me personally. I struggled with my own betrayal of my wife. Even though my one-night-stand was essentially void of all intimacy (except for the physical act), it was amplified by the fact I betrayed my core values.

I guess in the end, as humans, we can be driven to do things that even run contrary to our core principles. What matters is how often will we violate our inner consciousness. I trust myself never to make that mistake again. It is emotional baggage I get to carry around now. It bothers me less now, but I'll never forget it.

We're not perfect and at times we all do things that violate our inner consciousness. I hope that someday jwp4 you are able to forgive yourself. That can be the hardest thing to do. There are many things that I wish I would have done differently. When you know better you do better right?

I'm not advocating cheating at all (I'm opposed to it), and have been cheated on in the past. It hurts. However I agree with the last poster that sometimes I think people do it, despite their best intentions, and in breach of their own 'moral code'. Unfortunately we are mammals as well as humans, and I think sometimes the heat of passion takes over, and dispels rationality entirely. That is why, I think, it can sometimes be forgiven, provided that it doesn't become habitual behaviour.

Yes I agree that people can have the best of intentions and still go astray. We all make mistakes. I'm not entirely sure that emotion completely overwhelms your ability to reason. One of the differences between humans and other animals (this includes our decision making in sexual relations) is our ability to reason, our intellect and conscience. It is the combination of sexual urges and thoughts that can lead us astray. While we cannot control our sexual urges, we can exert more control over our thinking. When you entertain certain thoughts, over time it becomes easier to succumb to those sexual instincts despite knowing what the right thing is to do. We are sexual beings and we all notice attractiveness in the opposite sex. However I truly believe that an affair first begins in your mind. What do you think? Are passions easier to control if you monitor your thoughts?

[eternaltriangle]

I'm more of a "project relationship into the future, realize it won't work, and break it off after two weeks" sort of guy, so I tend not to cheat on people. I would feel very guilty though (damn Catholic upbringing). I also find the idea of submitting to animal instincts rather distasteful.

[PRBori]

Made a mistake once in my life, but I've been cheated on a few times.

My theme now is NO cheating, but ending the relationship if it doesn't go well. Loyal to the end even if things are not steady as I would like them to be.

[Colette]

Yes I agree that people can have the best of intentions and still go astray. We all make mistakes. I'm not entirely sure that emotion completely overwhelms your ability to reason. One of the differences between humans and other animals (this includes our decision making in sexual relations) is our ability to reason, our intellect and conscience. It is the combination of sexual urges and thoughts that can lead us astray. While we cannot control our sexual urges, we can exert more control over our thinking

Well that is the theory, yes, but I've had enough experiences of married people being attracted to me, and quite willing to sleep with me (had I agreed), to know that even the most sane and reasonable people on the surface can lose their sense of logic and rationality, when "under the influence" (if you like) of hormones. Hormones do alter the biochemical balance in the brain, like it or not.

When you entertain certain thoughts, over time it becomes easier to succumb to those sexual instincts despite knowing what the right thing is to do. We are sexual beings and we all notice attractiveness in the opposite sex. However I truly believe that an affair first begins in your mind. What do you think? Are passions easier to control if you monitor your thoughts?

Well yes I agree that affairs start "in the mind", as you describe, but the cheater begins to think about sex with the other person, as a result of a hormonal infatuation. Thus it becomes a need for "mind over body" control, and for some people, this just is seemingly too difficult, or they don't try hard enough to defeat the thoughts, or whatever. The only cure for such illicit attraction, imo, is to completely remove yourself from the physical presence of the other person. Otherwise it is simply like waving a bottle of booze in front of an alcoholic and expecting them not to grab it.

[jwp4]

What do you think? Are passions easier to control if you monitor your thoughts?

I think it is easy to obsess about someone you are interested in or that makes you feel important or loved. If you don't recognized the infatuation, then you could pull yourself down the "wrong" path. Objectively speaking, passions feel good whether it be a hobby or a love interest. We (INTJ) have the innate ability to lose ourselves in our passions.

I do realize that our passions and convictions could run contrary to each other revealing a moral quandary in our minds.

[DeadSpace]

I think it is easy to obsess about someone you are interested in or that makes you feel important or loved. If you don't recognized the infatuation, then you could pull yourself down the "wrong" path. Objectively speaking, passions feel good whether it be a hobby or a love interest. We (INTJ) have the innate ability to lose ourselves in our passions.

I do realize that our passions and convictions could run contrary to each other revealing a moral quandary in our minds.

No moral quandary...if you make a choice not to cheat, even with cost/benefit analysis it does not payoff in any way, shape or form. Leads to more problems and cures none. It is a choice, no one gets dragged kicking and screaming into infidelity. I've been approached while in a relationship...even while in a relationship on it's last legs...and my choice is and always has been no. Not cheating is easy when you've made the choice. And made the commitment to abide by it.

[Uytuun]

Never cheated, got cheated on once. Would not necessarily see a one-night stand as the end of a relationship.

I think we're pretty unconventional in all aspects of love and relationships. So long as it works for the people involved, everything is possible.

[md21017md]

I just posted a a new member in the intro section. I am an esfp guy dating an intj woman.

"Why would I let wikipedia dictate my morals? I'm not trying to be harsh, I'm usually not this irate, but this seems so irrational. "


This and lack of communication is what makes you guys so hard to trust. You seem to have your own sense of morals, revealed to no one. You are the only one's that seem to know what you consider right and wrong, and it seems that once you've considered something ok, no external force is going to sway your position. so it seems that if you consider a 1 night stand not a big deal as was said, then you will have no problems having them and thinking nothing of it. This is how I see things from outside looking in. Am I far off?

[jwp4]

This and lack of communication is what makes you guys so hard to trust. You seem to have your own sense of morals, revealed to no one. You are the only one's that seem to know what you consider right and wrong, and it seems that once you've considered something ok, no external force is going to sway your position. so it seems that if you consider a 1 night stand not a big deal as was said, then you will have no problems having them and thinking nothing of it. This is how I see things from outside looking in. Am I far off?

I guess this would be the case if someone rationalized it to be so, regardless of personality type.
I personally think a one-night-stand is more fitting to an INTJ's personality than is a long drawn-out emotional type of affair. Typical of INTJ's they do have a well formed conscious, which could prevent any sort of infidelity. I think that reading through the thread, you will find most posters refrain from affairs. The idea of an affair betrays their own sense of Loyalty and Trust.

I guess from your post, your INTJ friend is sleeping around?

[md21017md]

"I guess from your post, your INTJ friend is sleeping around?"

I don't know what she's doing. I have absolutely no hard evidence, but I do have a lot of instances that really make me raise an eyebrow. I guess it is her INTJ aloofness but she is self admittedly a poor communicator. A lot of this come out as evasiveness. We've pretty much been living together for over a year, and I get the constant "I love you" actually she was the first to say so, and the first to make things exclusive. she said something to the effect of "you can't see other women, well you can but I won't be around for it". After that, things cool then just weekly moments of "you can't possibly expect me to believe this". That said, she's always - to the best of my knowledge - been where she said she would and done what she said she would. But, she's also done things like chat up a guy sitting beside us at a bar, and exchange email and phone numbers right in front of me because there was some 3rd party connection and she supposedly wanted to connect her 3rd party to his 3rd party. So is she? I have no idea, but if she's notand it's like this, I can't imagine how it would be if she were. Maybe what I am seeing is just a result of poor INTJ communication skills combined with INTJ desire for privacy?

[jwp4]

That said, she's always - to the best of my knowledge - been where she said she would and done what she said she would...Maybe what I am seeing is just a result of poor INTJ communication skills combined with INTJ desire for privacy?

It sounds like she is communicating clearly and concisely, and she backs up what says by her actions. As for the idea of "poor INTJ communication", I guess it depends on who is listening.

There are other threads that deal with ESFP - INTJ relationships.

[PortInStorm]

I was the one who made the moral statement- and I think it's true that our morals may be different than general society, but all you have to do is ask her. I think she'd be open.

As you whether she's having an affair, I'm not sure why the signals you mention would trigger suspicion. Chatting with another man and exchanging numbers is something an independent female does- I would assume that you trusted me and let you know if something changed. Look for clearcut requests for a change of behaviour before she starts to look elsewhere, especially since she established the exclusivity.

[md21017md]

2nd time, you are right that chatting with a stranger in and of it's self is not an issue. I pesonally took offense because she pretty much swiveled around on the stool for a 30 min exclusive conversation and left me sitting there wondering what the hell. It wasn;t like I was included.

There have been other "things" like this take while 1 by 1 are not a big deal, but week after week it starts to make you wonder. But, I am trying to understand her, maybe what I am seeing would be an issue with another personality type, but for an intj is nothing to worry about.

I have seen a change over the past few months, and I have asked her what's up, is this working etc etc. To my questions I get everything is cool, or that I need to be more secure with her. It's kind of hard to do when every time I turn around is some new event that makes you question whats going on - at least based on relationships with other personality types.

[PortInStorm]

Hmmm, I know there are things that are hard to explain online. I don't know what to say about the 30 minute conversation- that does seem inappropriate.

[apresmoimelle]

I have never cheated on anyone and I have never been cheated on, but I have always been the one to decide that a relationship has run its course and the time has come to move on.

You...complete me. This is exactly how I feel, except on many occasions I cannot help but start another relationship while the other is slowly dying.

[Sesquipedalian]

Never cheated... Never been cheated on. ...doubt I ever will be. I choose my significant others very carefully for a reason. Perhaps I think TOO much before actually taking action, however, I want to be sure that she is actually worth spending energy on... because emotional and social energy takes a LOT more out of me than good ol' thinkin'.

Oh, and md... I only read your most recent post, but if you are constantly trying to reaffirm what the your INTJ significant other has already affirmed in her mind, then it will really eat at her. She will wonder why you can't just have a peace about the situation and trust her. I can speak somewhat authoritatively about this because I dated an ESFJ. Every time I brought up some new female friend or anything similar she'd go digress into an emotional spazz and start questioning our relationship. I'd tell her just to trust me and she said that she did trust me... but that [blah blah blah, insert lame excuse here]. The fact is, her constant insecurity in the status our relationship (which was, to me, a very secure non-wavering thing) was a real sore spot for me. I wanted her to just "be still" as it were and just trust that she was the only one I cared about in that way.

In short, if you keep bothering her just to satisfy your curiosity you might bug her to the point that she gets fed up. If she's intent on distancing herself from you, then nothing you can do will stop her, however, by constantly questioning her dedication, you will only push her away faster (if she is indeed drifting away).

Again, I only read your most recent post so I don't know the entirety of the situation, but I must head to bed. It's 1:30AM and I have to get up in a few hours!

[Meyer]

"I guess from your post, your INTJ friend is sleeping around?"

I don't know what she's doing. I have absolutely no hard evidence, but I do have a lot of instances that really make me raise an eyebrow. I guess it is her INTJ aloofness but she is self admittedly a poor communicator. A lot of this come out as evasiveness. We've pretty much been living together for over a year, and I get the constant "I love you" actually she was the first to say so, and the first to make things exclusive. she said something to the effect of "you can't see other women, well you can but I won't be around for it". After that, things cool then just weekly moments of "you can't possibly expect me to believe this". That said, she's always - to the best of my knowledge - been where she said she would and done what she said she would. But, she's also done things like chat up a guy sitting beside us at a bar, and exchange email and phone numbers right in front of me because there was some 3rd party connection and she supposedly wanted to connect her 3rd party to his 3rd party. So is she? I have no idea, but if she's notand it's like this, I can't imagine how it would be if she were. Maybe what I am seeing is just a result of poor INTJ communication skills combined with INTJ desire for privacy?

Let her know that that type of communication is extremely important to you. You'll get your answer. Its different for all people regardless of type.

[gogurtdynasty]

I wouldn't consider my self to be without emotions; I'm just very rational with the ones I have. i myself could never cheat on somebody. If i tell a person they can trust me then i will be loyal because... i agreed to it and i personally am very good at sticking to agreements. It reminds me of the silence of the lambs... I would just consider it to be rude :-P I have been cheated on though... it was pretty aggravating but it wasn't the end of the world.

[md21017md]

Meyer, here is the thing, at least in my mind, maybe not the INTJ mind. Just because you (the intj - or anyone for that matter) say I am yours, no one else, you can trust me; well that doesn't then mean you have carte blanche to do anything you want. In my opinion, in a relationship, and you want to be trusted, you don't do shit to instill doubt, but should be trying to build trust. For example, having lunch with a co-worker of the opposit sex, or a drink after work is not a big deal. Being out of the road, hanging in the bar at 2 am is. From my limited almot 2 year relationship with an INTJ, it seems like you guys think that one a commitment is made the rest of us should just assume it is always being kept, no matter how outlandish the circumstances going on. That is hard to blindly do, and even she, the intj had an affair at the end of her marriage, so anything is possible.





md21017md added to this post, 5 minutes and 2 seconds later...

sesquip, I don't look for constant reaffirmation, but I do and have questioned when there have been "you cant really expect me to believe this" moments have come up. Part of the problem is insted of discussing it and seeing my point, she brushes it off with "you are too insecure with our relationshi". I personally think that is bullshit, and her stance is pushing me away. Insted of building trust, she's eating away at it. As I said in the last post, I have no problem if she goes to dinner with a client or co-worker, a drink after work or what ever. However, there have been some significant issues. While I have no solid evidence, these were things she told me, and I in turn was dumbfounded.

[Tual]

Never cheated, never been cheated on (as far as I know). I think cheating is a horrible thing to do as it instantly destroys the bond of trust that has build between two people. I personally think that if you cheat you should no longer be in a relationship with your 'significant other' anyway, because it's obviously not working out. I would not continue a relationship with someone who had cheated on me.

The only reason I would be tempted to cheat would be lust, but I feel I have enough control over myself to best that impulse, at least so far...

[eternaltriangle]

Meyer, here is the thing, at least in my mind, maybe not the INTJ mind. Just because you (the intj - or anyone for that matter) say I am yours, no one else, you can trust me; well that doesn't then mean you have carte blanche to do anything you want. In my opinion, in a relationship, and you want to be trusted, you don't do shit to instill doubt, but should be trying to build trust. For example, having lunch with a co-worker of the opposit sex, or a drink after work is not a big deal. Being out of the road, hanging in the bar at 2 am is. From my limited almot 2 year relationship with an INTJ, it seems like you guys think that one a commitment is made the rest of us should just assume it is always being kept, no matter how outlandish the circumstances going on. That is hard to blindly do, and even she, the intj had an affair at the end of her marriage, so anything is possible.


Interesting - in relationships I tend to wait for a particular time when I can stop trying to impress the other person, be sociable, etc. I think a lot of people end up interpreting this as meaning I am not interested in them, I am cheating on them or something else.

I have a general question - do you often find women (or men) insisting that there is some reason they don't quite trust that you are being faithful. I have never cheated on anybody, and I don't meet a lot of women to begin with, yet a large percentage of people I have dated have had considerable difficulty trusting me.

Is this common? Why does it happen? I have a few hypotheses:
1. As an introvert, I am less likely to meet women, and less likely to date. Therefore, on average, I probably end up with a less "valuable" (in terms of looks, other qualities, etc.) than my own qualities on paper would seem to predict (I consider myself better looking and smarter than almost everybody I have dated - and I'm not good looking). Unattractive women are more likely to have been used by men in the past, and so will be less likely to trust.

2. They interpret my appearing to not be listening to them to mean that I am not truly enraptured... bla bla bla... something about sandals. I also usually forget the details of what was said before, and repeat small details. The thing is that I get the point of what they are saying early on, so why belabor it.

3. I have almost-black hair and pale skin, and am fairly thin. I resemble various movie villains. This would also explain how I always lose in Risk (everybody allies against me).

4. I fake emotions on a regular basis, however, I may be much worse at it than I think. They catch on, and it makes them trust me less.

Wow, I don't think anybody would date me given my admissions above.

[md21017md]

eternal, I'll give you a glimpse into the other side if I can.

In general I am not a naturally dis-trustfull person. This particular girl is the first long term INTJ I've dated and it is work. She has done and said a lot of things, and when discussed with others thier jaws dropped. To answer your points

1 First, my experiance is that what men consider attractive to women and what they find attractive are worlds apart. Yes women like the hot looking guy for a hook up, but I think when they are looking for something long term looks generally are not at the top. Most look for other qualities first such as confidence, intelligence, wealth etc etc. So my point is, don't sell your self short.

2 Ok for us extroverts, and especially us ESFP's we talk, women even more so. We talk because - well hell I don't know why, we talk because we like to. This is how we learn the other person, how we entertain our self. I know you guys do also, or at least my INTJ friend does when he is in social settings. He can be quite the chatterbox. I guess we just do it all the time. Why belabor the details? Maybe because it's just entertaining?

3 Don't know about that one. Maybe get a tan?

4 Ok, don't fake it. We can spot it a mile off, and it's more of a turn off than not doing it at all.

[Meyer]

Meyer, here is the thing, at least in my mind, maybe not the INTJ mind. Just because you (the intj - or anyone for that matter) say I am yours, no one else, you can trust me; well that doesn't then mean you have carte blanche to do anything you want. In my opinion, in a relationship, and you want to be trusted, you don't do shit to instill doubt, but should be trying to build trust. For example, having lunch with a co-worker of the opposit sex, or a drink after work is not a big deal. Being out of the road, hanging in the bar at 2 am is. From my limited almot 2 year relationship with an INTJ, it seems like you guys think that one a commitment is made the rest of us should just assume it is always being kept, no matter how outlandish the circumstances going on. That is hard to blindly do, and even she, the intj had an affair at the end of her marriage, so anything is possible.


I know in my marriage most of the issues my wife, an esfj, had a problem with were related to my need for freedom. It wasn't that I needed to be free from her it was that I had to seek mental stimulation elsewhere. We would try and connect on a deeper level but it seems that she would get lost as I was really just beginning. This was in no way in relation to intelligence as she is a very intelligent woman, but was more related to the differences between concrete and abstract, big picture and whats right in front of you. We all have the abilities to communicate on all levels but remember the way to an intjs heart is always going to start with their mind. If your truly interested in making this work try and meet her in the abstract realm occasionally for some deep and meaninful conversations. The more you fulfill her needs there the less she will seek stimulation elsewhere imho.

[pallasathena]

I was cheated on by my now "insignificant other". I believe the relationship had run its course, but since I was sort of new to this whole relationship thing, I continued to stay in it. Are you familiar with the expression about staying too long at the fair? That was me. Anyway, I could sense that he was growing more distant and called me less and less. One day, I left a message on his voice mail saying that if he wanted me to stay out of his life that he should be man enough to tell me. I refuse to beg for any man's love or affection. He called me back with some lame excuse as to why he hadn't called me. I figured there was someone else, but I couldn't prove anything-yet. I found out about his cheating from a mutual acquaintance of ours. She asked me if I had heard that Mr. Insignificant Other just had a baby with another woman? I felt as if I'd been punched in the stomach. I was so hurt, not so much about the cheating and the baby, but that he felt the need to lie about it. I hate liars. I did not cry, however. I was too INTJ for that. Instead, I decided to strategize and catch him in a trap. Remember, he didn't know that I knew his secret.

About four months later, I received a call from him. He was sounding so "lovey-dovey", which pissed me off, but I kept my cool. I asked him how he had been and what was going on with him. He told me everything except the truth. He talked so much that he left an opening for me to strike. He said that he was having some hard times of late. I comisserated with him and said how hard that must be for him. He said that I could never guess the things he had gone through. I said, "Like what?". He said, "Go on and guess.". I said, "OK, let's see. Did you get married?". He said no. "Engaged?", I asked. "No." he said. "OK, did you get another woman pregnant and now have an illegitimate child? (or something to that effect)". The phone went silent. He tried to deny it, but I wouldn't let him off the hook. Then he started to cry and admit that he indeed was now a father. I told him to have a nice life and that I was no longer interested in him-romantically.

That happened in 2002. The last time we spoke was in 2003 after he heard I had broken my ankle. Can you believe he had the nerve to say that the reason I broke my ankle was because I treated him badly? I told him, "Oh, yeah? Well when is your retribution coming?". He gave a fake laugh and said, "I'm suffering every day.". I said, "That's comforting to know.".

Sometimes I marvel at my own audacity. I love me. :)

[NephilimAzrael]

I do not cheat but may appear callous in the fact that if I intend to have any relations with a non-partner I will break up with them before I pursue. But I disdain infidelity.