Mother Issues, Part II

[MyOtherSelf]

Hey everyone-

So you may have read the earlier thread I posted about the issues I've been having my parents recently. In short, my mom called me up on the phone in a rage 4 weeks ago because I missed my childhood friend's engagement party, told me she hoped I failed all my finals, and that she never wanted to speak to me again. Then she hung up the phone on me. This is only one sequence in the chain of her manipulative and somewhat abusive behaviour, however, this is the first time she has "disowned" me. We haven't spoken for four weeks. At first, I was saddened and hurt by it. Now, I am beginning to feel more mentally healthy.

My dad has been pressuring me recently to call her and "make things right." We've been arguing about this, and I think he's being quite unreasonable about it. Below is his argument and mine, summed up. I would like people's opinions on whether he is being fair to me, because his actions seem somewhat selfish.

His argument:

I should regain contact with my mom because:

1. She is sad
2. The fact that she and I are not speaking is having a negative effect on everyone in the family
3. Even though she said mean and hurtful things to me, she's my mother

To which I continually reply (and it's getting exhausting)

1. Well, she created this situation by what she said to me, so I should not be responsible for her sadness
2. I'm sorry it's having a negative effect on everyone else, but I would like you to see that the way she treated me had a negative effect on ME and that's what I am dealing with right now
3. It isn't right that she should cut me off and that I should be the one initiating contact. Furthermore, I have no apologies for her, so I don't know what you want me to call up and say. And, communication is a two way street. She hasn't tried to call me.


After going back and forth, he started to sound pissed off and said something along the lines of fine, do whatever you want, I don't care.

I don't think he's being fair. I think it's so absurd that I should have to worry about her feelings when she has been abusive to me. I would appreciate honest opinions on this. I really don't know what I'm doing here, and it's tough to have my dad pushing me to patch things up. Soon everyone will be on her side, and I'll become very isolated if I continue the silence. I'm very confused about all of this. I've never stood my ground this heavily before, and the consequences are very difficult. I'm scared I might be making a big mistake.

[Aronnax]

She dug her own hole, she can climb out of it on her own.

Tell your father to let her know when she's ready to apologize you're ready to accept it.

[MyOtherSelf]

Tell your father to let her know when she's ready to apologize you're ready to accept it.

So simple yet so appropriate. Why didn't I think of saying that?

Thank you very much!

[sofki]

tell her that she was wrong and that you accept her the way she is but do not apologize.today mine told me that she would be better off me.we fight a lot because of my likely social anxiety disorder and i am *extremely* nostalgic of my childhood.it's weird to see her as a fellow adult.her mood changes affect me a lot and i can't stand her playing helpless and hysterical.she was always very controlling and i've come to believe that very controlling parents cause their children to be anxious,introverted etc (serial killers?) while aloof ones make them carefree,easy-going,extroverted (drug dealers?)

[rain]

She's your mother. You got to be the bigger person. Besides, she was probably angry about something other than your not attending your friend's engagement party.

Since she has proven to be hysterical over the phone (hangs up, etc) I would write her a letter- or email (a long one) listing all the reasons why you felt indignant- but not accusing her- and simply asking her how you can resolve this situation with her.

She sounds like an NF- irrational, proud, and unwilling to admit she was wrong, taking the blame out on you when something else is really bothering her. When dealing with NF women, it is not necessarily who is right or wrong (we NTs tend to think that way) but rather who shows more compassion which is more important to them.

In essence, NF logic= "if you show that you care about me even if I acted a certain way towards you because I couldn't tell you exactly what was wrong but I was mad you because you couldn't figure it out and now I'm giving you a guilt trip" The best way to diffuse that bomb is to say

"Mom, I really love you, but how you acted towards me was very hurtful. I would like to make amends for reasons A B C, and I would like to make it up to you, but I hope you understand that I won't tolerate you when you are trying to make me feel guilty over something I have no control over, etc etc"

[daydreamer]

your Mom is wrong. aronnax is right. you need to take care of yourself, your own feelings. you owe yourself more than you owe anyone else, even your mom.

i don't think there is any reason to take a hard line. but get on with what's important to you, your own needs. if you need to tell her she hurt you, do it. if you don't want to, don't. sometimes time has a way of helping you feel better. if you need time, give it to yourself. if you feel better later, and want to patch things up at that point, do it.

but the fact remains your mom was wrong, and you don't owe her more than you owe yourself. don't get into a cycle of her (and your father) expecting that you do...

[MyOtherSelf]

She's your mother. You got to be the bigger person. Besides, she was probably angry about something other than your not attending your friend's engagement party.

Since she has proven to be hysterical over the phone (hangs up, etc) I would write her a letter- or email (a long one) listing all the reasons why you felt indignant- but not accusing her- and simply asking her how you can resolve this situation with her.

She sounds like an NF- irrational, proud, and unwilling to admit she was wrong, taking the blame out on you when something else is really bothering her. When dealing with NF women, it is not necessarily who is right or wrong (we NTs tend to think that way) but rather who shows more compassion which is more important to them.

In essence, NF logic= "if you show that you care about me even if I acted a certain way towards you because I couldn't tell you exactly what was wrong but I was mad you because you couldn't figure it out and now I'm giving you a guilt trip" The best way to diffuse that bomb is to say

"Mom, I really love you, but how you acted towards me was very hurtful. I would like to make amends for reasons A B C, and I would like to make it up to you, but I hope you understand that I won't tolerate you when you are trying to make me feel guilty over something I have no control over, etc etc"

I once tried to communicate with my mother via e-mail, and it did not go well. Having things in writing made it even easier for her to find strange ways to twist around my words and make me sound and feel ridiculous. She responds to this type of assertiveness with extreme rage, which is why I am hesitant to try something like this again. I sent her a calm but firm e-mail, and the next day my inbox was flooded with nasty messages, mocking me, calling me a bitch, etc. I'm very scared to try this again, and I'm not sure it it will be effective at all...

[rain]

I once tried to communicate with my mother via e-mail, and it did not go well. Having things in writing made it even easier for her to find strange ways to twist around my words and make me sound and feel ridiculous. She responds to this type of assertiveness with extreme rage, which is why I am hesitant to try something like this again. I sent her a calm but firm e-mail, and the next day my inbox was flooded with nasty messages, mocking me, calling me a bitch, etc. I'm very scared to try this again, and I'm not sure it it will be effective at all...

I'm going to extrapolate that you have the writing style of a lawyer (not that you are one) but I can assume from your posts that you take into consideration the facts, and lay it straight on the line in a persuasive argument.

This kind of argument does not fare well with NFs because they don't care about facts. They will twist facts to suit their own subjective viewpoint which is completely illogical. I had several experiences with ENFPs who were like this. They completely ignored the trail of emails delineating facts and just went with the lying method to suit their own interests. Of course, as an NT, I couldn't believe it. But NFs typically argue in an unfair fashion, I have found.

So when you write your mother an email, don't make it a logical statement of facts. Only include how "hurt you were by her actions" and enumerate all the reasons why you "care about her". That is the only thing that persuades NFs really. I speak from lots of experience on this one.

NTs respond to logic, NFs respond to emotional displays.

[WoodElf4U]

Perhaps she needs to go to a psychiatrist, you could mention that to your dad. If she actually wants to work on her issues, to better your relationship, then you could start talking to her again. But otherwise, her abuse is not healthy for either of you. It is better you keep off contact for now, imo.

[Vagrant]

She dug her own hole, she can climb out of it on her own.

Tell your father to let her know when she's ready to apologize you're ready to accept it.

One of the most appropriate answers in my opinion. You are doing the right thing. You shouldn't have to apologize for doing the right thing. I would say that since you are feeling a lot better, you are headed down the right road.

To respond to your father's argument (which is in fact, very selfish):



So I should be sad so my mother can be happy? No thank you, she has continually dug her own hole in this regard.
Which family? Extended family or nuclear family? Because all I see it as having a negative effect on your mother and your father. And it only has a negative effect on your father by association -- he has to live with the women. Since you've made it clear she is hurtful to both of you, then he has only himself to blame if it's having a negative effect on him.
Pointless argument. Blood may be thicker than water, but there's only 6 blood types out there. Relation by blood does not mean you have to care.

[mrStevens]

She's your mother. You got to be the bigger person. Besides, she was probably angry about something other than your not attending your friend's engagement party.

Since she has proven to be hysterical over the phone (hangs up, etc) I would write her a letter- or email (a long one) listing all the reasons why you felt indignant- but not accusing her- and simply asking her how you can resolve this situation with her.

She sounds like an NF- irrational, proud, and unwilling to admit she was wrong, taking the blame out on you when something else is really bothering her. When dealing with NF women, it is not necessarily who is right or wrong (we NTs tend to think that way) but rather who shows more compassion which is more important to them.

In essence, NF logic= "if you show that you care about me even if I acted a certain way towards you because I couldn't tell you exactly what was wrong but I was mad you because you couldn't figure it out and now I'm giving you a guilt trip" The best way to diffuse that bomb is to say

"Mom, I really love you, but how you acted towards me was very hurtful. I would like to make amends for reasons A B C, and I would like to make it up to you, but I hope you understand that I won't tolerate you when you are trying to make me feel guilty over something I have no control over, etc etc"

No. This is not NF logic. This sounds more like a personality disorder. To say this type of behavior is typical of a balanced personality type ignores a potentially serious problem. If OP's mother does have a personality disorder then there is no logic in the world that will work. Only therapy and possibly medication will work in the long-run.

OP's father also exhibits enabling behavior. The response to back up the dysfunctional behavior is typical of spouses who have had to live with the person with the disorder for a long time. It's kind of like being in the trenches of a war. Most people will come out traumatized. All he can think about is trying to calm his spouse through ANY means possible including telling his daughter to apologize for pissing off his wife. It's a survival instinct.

To OP. I'm really sorry you are having to go through this. I would encourage you to get help if it has been bothering you for weeks without going away. I don't want you to go into depression. Also, reading about how other people cope with behaviors similar to your mother's may help. Know that you are not alone. Good luck and PM me if you would like suggestions for forums or websites.

P.S. Detach with love.

[vern]

3. Even though she said mean and hurtful things to me, she's my mother

Your father is wrong!

I am both a mother of a beautiful young woman and a daughter, I therefore am an expert. Your mother, more than anyone has no right to say mean and hurtful things to you. Particularly over a social function, you are correct and your feelings, although likely less animated are as equally valid as anyone else's and every mother, even us cold hearted intj ones, should treat our children with more respect than anyone else. If we, as mothers, are incapable of offering our children support, guidance and encouragement without harsh or unwarranted criticism we have failed and do not deserve to call ourselves mothers.

Let it go, many things cannot be fixed, I have not had any relationship with my female parent for twenty one years and for twenty one years have been that much happier for it. I never stopped smiling for a moment for the first three...

[Seriously]

Odds are this isn't going to go away anytime soon and in the interim the negative emotions will sap you. It's for that reason I tend to let things go even when I'm in the right. It's just not worth the emotional negativity to me. I usually try and put us on an equal footing blame wise by saying something like

"We both said a lot of things we didn't mean and I"m sure if we could go back we would do it differently but since we can't lets just put it behind us and move forward."

Gives them a bit of an out and doesn't assume sole guilt for them to bash you over the head with later.

Then I tend to reduce contact to minimize the chances of this happening again.

[rain]

No. This is not NF logic.

Au contraire. In my opinion, it certainly is reflective of the way NFs tend to argue, esp when they're upset. They're also the type of hold grudges for a long time.

No parent is perfect. Then we must assess whether or not one is the perfect daughter, while the mother was in the wrong. Obviously OPs mother must've done something right if the daughter didn't end up a complete mess, right?

Life is more than being right vs being wrong. Let's face it, mothers should be granted filial piety unless the daughter was put in physical danger.

Of course, I can understand when one wants to cut ties with a toxic person. I have a family member like this, and I can't stand her guts and try to spend as little time with her as possible.

[SuupaSugoi]

You have the right/duty to remove yourself from a chronically hurtful situation. If that means not talking to your mother, so be it. It's beyond your ability to mitigate the negative impact to the rest of the family. Sure, you could call your mom and give an apology you don't mean so she can save face, and she'd probably be more reasonable for a time, but the fundamental problem of her poor behavior is still there and it would come up again for sure.

[MyOtherSelf]

Obviously OPs mother must've done something right if the daughter didn't end up a complete mess, right?

.

I don't agree with that logic. I've done more fending for myself and battling to keep myself sane than I would wish upon any good willed person. My mother placed difficulties in front of me when they didn't need to be there, and I was the one who had to find strength and live through it.

I don't believe it is my mother who got me where I am today. As a counterexample to your argument, my sibling is showing signs of serious issues transitioning into adulthood and has inflicted serious harm upon herself in the past. And we both have the same mother.

I might sound incredibly cruel right now, but perhaps such is the tone and attitude of someone who has been deeply hurt.

[daydreamer]

No parent is perfect. Then we must assess whether or not one is the perfect daughter, while the mother was in the wrong. Obviously OPs mother must've done something right if the daughter didn't end up a complete mess, right?

Life is more than being right vs being wrong. Let's face it, mothers should be granted filial piety unless the daughter was put in physical danger.



if no one is perfect, why should we assess if the daughter was perfect?

doing something right previously does not dismiss the wrong in the present.

life is more than being right and wrong, i'll agree. therefore she needs to protect herself from such absolute judgments. no adult owes (ie., should grant) their parents filial piety, because no parent should expect it, and neither should anyone outside the relationship. adults choose for themselves their own shoulds, and should nots.

if, as you say, the mother has done "something right," then the mother should have little to worry about in the way of such expectations.

[vern]

Obviously OPs mother must've done something right if the daughter didn't end up a complete mess, right?

Wrong, that is a huge assumption to make, for me it was my grandmother who guided me and supported me. Having a vagina does not give one the abilities or skills to rear a child properly.

Let's face it, mothers should be granted filial piety unless the daughter was put in physical danger.

Is that so, so only if physical abuse is a factor should a mother's actions be called into question and the child is obligated to dutiful adoration because a sex act occurred that brought them into being, please, I think not!

[Seriously]

I read your other post. Sounds like your dad is probably catching hell over this and that is why he is wanting you to patch things up. It's your call.

For the record I find it a bit disconcerting to see people telling someone they barely know on a discussion board to cut off a family member. Maybe it's my own issues with shunning due to my background but it seems a bit excessive especially when you aren't totally conversant of their entire circumstances.

[MikeC]

But she's your mom!!!!! I would not hang up the phone until I tease and make my mom laugh.

My supergo would tell me "she used to smack you, and forced you to attend language schools. Why Bother?"

The ego, OTOH, says, "Let it go. You have enough unhappiness in the world."

[Aronnax]

Let's face it, mothers should be granted filial piety unless the daughter was put in physical danger.

I don't think you've considered the implications of this statement.

There are types of abuse that aren't physical but are incredibly damaging.

[Vagrant]

But she's your mom!!!!! I would not hang up the phone until I tease and make my mom laugh.

My supergo would tell me "she used to smack you, and forced you to attend language schools. Why Bother?"

The ego, OTOH, says, "Let it go. You have enough unhappiness in the world."

Have you read MOS's other post about this issue?

[MikeC]

Have you read MOS's other post about this issue?

Clearly, we are on opposite sides of the spectrum. Perhaps, like you, I want to win all the time. But nothing gets in the way of my family. There is nothing that can't be patched up. I'd lose a battle if I can still win the war.

Perhaps we have differing family values?

[MyOtherSelf]

Clearly, we are on opposite sides of the spectrum. Perhaps, like you, I want to win all the time. But nothing gets in the way of my family. There is nothing that can't be patched up. I'd lose a battle if I can still win the war.

Perhaps we have differing family values?

How do you justify being put in pain? I wish I could let this all go...but I literally fear my mother because of the way she talks to me. I'm working on building my self esteem...and she keeps battering it. How do you brush it off?

[vern]

How do you justify being put in pain? I wish I could let this all go...but I literally fear my mother because of the way she talks to me. I'm working on building my self esteem...and she keeps battering it. How do you brush it off?

It cannot be brushed off, it will never really leave you, unfortunately it is the core of who you are. Let go of it and associate with healthy people, build healthy relationships, keep active and when you become a parent, if you do, do not make the same mistakes your parents are.

[mrStevens]

How do you justify being put in pain? I wish I could let this all go...but I literally fear my mother because of the way she talks to me. I'm working on building my self esteem...and she keeps battering it. How do you brush it off?
Your language communicates a feeling of helplessness. To regain your self esteem, TAKE YOUR POWER BACK. Stop giving it to your mother. Your father. Your ex. Your second ex. Your friend. Once you can master this concept, you will start to feel better.

I could write a long drawn out post about how to do this and why but I don't think it will make a difference. The best thing for you to do right now is meditate on the advice people have given you, including your therapist, and start the process of internalizing these things.

[MikeC]

How do you justify being put in pain? I wish I could let this all go...but I literally fear my mother because of the way she talks to me. I'm working on building my self esteem...and she keeps battering it. How do you brush it off?

I have been hurt, trust me.

It there is anything that I have learnt, putting yourself in a powerful position is the cheapest way to build up self-esteem. I say forgive her for what has been done in the past, and from now on negotiate and communicate with her like an adult.

I have little to hide from mom. We know each other's weaknesses, and that helps us understand the incentives and motivations. If mine were to tell me off like yours did to you, I would give a simple explanation and wouldn't take much for mom to understand my situation.

Circumstances almost always can be better! :)

[Vagrant]

I have been hurt, trust me.

It there is anything that I have learnt, putting yourself in a powerful position is the cheapest way to build up self-esteem. I say forgive her for what has been done in the past, and from now on negotiate and communicate with her like an adult.

I have little to hide from mom. We know each other's weaknesses, and that helps us understand the incentives and motivations. If mine were to tell me off like yours did to you, I would give a simple explanation and wouldn't take much for mom to understand my situation.

Circumstances almost always can be better!

Well, they always can be better. But they aren't.

That's the problem here -- her mother is a sociopath who makes herself feel better at the expense of her child. And there's really nothing changing that. Despite all the attempts of the OP to get her mom to do otherwise, nothing works. So it's better to leave it behind. She's not putting herself in a position of power. She's leaving. And that's what's helping.

[MikeC]

Well, they always can be better. But they aren't.

That's the problem here -- her mother is a sociopath who makes herself feel better at the expense of her child. And there's really nothing changing that. Despite all the attempts of the OP to get her mom to do otherwise, nothing works. So it's better to leave it behind. She's not putting herself in a position of power. She's leaving. And that's what's helping.

There is a chance that her mom is going through a post menopausal phase, you know?

See, neither of us know. Only MOS knows (or doesn't?). But I wouldn't go around encouraging people to disolve the family unit without a complete picture of the situation. Even MOS knows how important having a family bond is, hence her current discomfort with regards to situation.

[mrStevens]

There is a chance that her mom is going through a post menopausal phase, you know?

See, neither of us know. Only MOS knows (or doesn't?). But I wouldn't go around encouraging people to disolve the family unit without a complete picture of the situation. Even MOS knows how important having a family bond is, hence her current discomfort with regards to situation.
Please don't make excuses for abuse. The reason doesn't matter.

Secondly, even people who have been locked up against their will for years have come to feel a bond with their abusers. Discomfort about a situation doesn't prove anything.

[daydreamer]

i agree ^ but there is room for a middle path. i alluded to it before. whatever decisions the daughter makes for herself in her best interest now, need not be eternal. she can return to working on the relationship with her mother when she is better able. it is not the same as putting oneself in a superior/powerful position - instead she is putting herself at at least equal importance, which she should, as she is responsible for and to herself.

i don't normally advise pushing family away either. i think the door to that can remain open, if MOS desires. but it's pretty clear that she's struggling with taking care of her own needs vs. taking care of her mother's, and her father's perhaps, and that the two are at present at cross purposes. part of growing up is shedding that obligation, reassessing one's own priorities and entering into a new relationship with parents - adult to adult. i would not let any adult treat me the way MOS's mother was treating her, menopausal or not.

it's clear to me MOS needs some distance to establish her own priorities and if she wants to pursue an adult to adult relationships with her parents on her own terms then that is up to her. i feel rather obligated to share that information with her, it is not the same as advising her to push her family away.

[mcantrim]

Everyone deserves to be treated with respect and dignity - period. That said, we do not always have control over how the people around us - including family members behave. For most of us, the decision to maintain family ties means that we are also choosing to have contact with some unhealthy family members. I agree that it sounds like your mother has some mental health issues. You cannot assume that she will ever choose to do anything about them, and therefore, if you want to maintain contact with your family, you will have to find a way to deal with her behaviors - not an easy task. First of all start by finding a good support system where you can blow off steam when you need to - this is invaluable when you are dealing with unhealthy people. You need people who know and care about you who can help you to understand and really believe that the problem is not you. Next, you need some coping strategies. I highly recommend a book called "A New Guide to Rational Living" by Albert Ellis. It has been around a long time, and it talks about how changing your thinking can help you to learn to deal with craziness in other people. Also, there is a book called "The Gentle Art of Verbal Self Defense" that may be helpful. You are never going to win with your mother, but you can survive her and feel good about your ability to navigate around her. I speak from experience - as the daughter of a hystrionic, lying, manipulative, verbally abusive mother. Yes, she has a role in my life; no, she is not allowed to manipulate and bully me. I had to set some very clear limits with her when I was a young adult, and once she realized that I was serious, her attitudes and behaviors changed substantially. That does not mean that she is well behaved now, but she does know that bad behavior will never get her what she wants from me and will never be tolerated in my home. If you have siblings, draw on them for support too if possible - my sister and brothers and I sometimes laugh ourselves silly telling our tales of survivial, and the shared laughter and understanding is very healing. Good luck with this - it is not easy.

[SuupaSugoi]

There is a chance that her mom is going through a post menopausal phase, you know?
Do you realize that this could be interpreted to be sexist?

Menopause does not normally cause someone to be emotionally abusive. You're implying that menopause carries the weight of a serious psychiatric diagnosis, and that because all women go through menopause, by extension all women are/will become/have been crazy and cannot be held responsible for their actions (at least while menopausal).

That reminds me of arguments from the paternalistic point of view that women can't be given difficult jobs because you never know when they'll be flying off the handle with PMS hormones.

/Don't think you meant it that way.

[rain]

It cannot be brushed off, it will never really leave you, unfortunately it is the core of who you are. Let go of it and associate with healthy people, build healthy relationships, keep active and when you become a parent, if you do, do not make the same mistakes your parents are.

I don't know. It seems the majority here except MikeC (whom I agree with) is suggesting that the OP break off her relationship with her own mother after one phone call.

If I could count the number of times when I was a teen and told my mother I hated her and never wanted to speak to her again, I would cringe, and perhaps laugh a bit now because I love my mother. It's a good thing my mother always forgave me because I'm sure I was a hellish youngster growing up who always wanted to get my way.

The thing about dealing with NFs is not to take what they say seriously when they are angry. They will say all sorts of ludicrious things in the moment of passion. So her mother got upset and said some awful things probably out of her own acute fear of abandonment- this is not a personality disorder. It's just life. There are all sorts of dramatic personalities out there, and in France, where I grew up, it's just the way people relate to each other. Since I've been living in the US, I realise that most of us grew up emotionally repressed, so that a display of emotion means we're psychologically unbalanced. This isn't so.

I remember when I first moved away to college (at 17) and my mother would purposely start arguments with me as I was packing all my bags and getting ready to leave. I realised that she did this because she didn't want me to leave, and that she thought I would never come visit her after I left.

Give your mom a break. You might regret not making up with her later, when she's no longer there.

[daydreamer]

Give your mom a break. You might regret not making up with her later, when she's no longer there.

or likely have unresolved feelings of anger and resentment that never got acknowledged in the living years.

[Aronnax]

I don't know. It seems the majority here except MikeC (whom I agree with) is suggesting that the OP break off her relationship with her own mother after one phone call.

If I could count the number of times when I was a teen and told my mother I hated her and never wanted to speak to her again, I would cringe, and perhaps laugh a bit now because I love my mother. It's a good thing my mother always forgave me because I'm sure I was a hellish youngster growing up who always wanted to get my way.

The thing about dealing with NFs is not to take what they say seriously when they are angry. They will say all sorts of ludicrious things in the moment of passion. So her mother got upset and said some awful things probably out of her own acute fear of abandonment- this is not a personality disorder. It's just life. There are all sorts of dramatic personalities out there, and in France, where I grew up, it's just the way people relate to each other. Since I've been living in the US, I realise that most of us grew up emotionally repressed, so that a display of emotion means we're psychologically unbalanced. This isn't so.

I remember when I first moved away to college (at 17) and my mother would purposely start arguments with me as I was packing all my bags and getting ready to leave. I realised that she did this because she didn't want me to leave, and that she thought I would never come visit her after I left.

Give your mom a break. You might regret not making up with her later, when she's no longer there.


I didn't suggest she cut ties with her mother, I suggested she should stand up for herself but remain open to an apology. I'm all for rebuilding bridges and maintaining relationships but there comes a point where the other person needs to compromise. There's a lengthy back story here, you should read it before drawing a conclusion.

[MikeC]

Do you realize that this could be interpreted to be sexist?

Menopause does not normally cause someone to be emotionally abusive. You're implying that menopause carries the weight of a serious psychiatric diagnosis, and that because all women go through menopause, by extension all women are/will become/have been crazy and cannot be held responsible for their actions (at least while menopausal).

That reminds me of arguments from the paternalistic point of view that women can't be given difficult jobs because you never know when they'll be flying off the handle with PMS hormones.

/Don't think you meant it that way.

Of course not. Don't take me too literally. :)

My point is that there is insufficient information to the story... insufficient to make a conclusion that could possibly lead to a strong advise anyway.

[Tyrant Soup]

I don't know. It seems the majority here except MikeC (whom I agree with) is suggesting that the OP break off her relationship with her own mother after one phone call.

Keep in mind that it was the mother who has cut ties and has set unreasonable demands for the resumption of relationships.

I doubt that the mother is "sad". That's the father's spin on the situation to guilt MOS into action. It is more likely that she is blindly furious.


It's a good thing my mother always forgave me because I'm sure I was a hellish youngster growing up who always wanted to get my way.

Unfortunately, this does not appear to be a case of a rebellious know-it-all daughter. The mother is dis-functional and vicious. Continued interaction could result in lifelong consequences.

Self preservation must come first. Nothing good can come from being subjected to the mother's limitless rage for years to come. Once independence has been established, a new relationship can be nurtured from a position of strength.

[LionsPride]

Soon everyone will be on her side, and I'll become very isolated if I continue the silence. I'm very confused about all of this. I've never stood my ground this heavily before, and the consequences are very difficult. I'm scared I might be making a big mistake.

There are a couple of things to consider. First, I get the feeling that your relationship with you mother is not a healthy one, worse, this isn't just a series of disagreements, she may have a history of being manipulative. If you're going to sever ties with her mother than you really need to decide if her negative impact is significant enough to warrant such a drastic action. Your father was right when he said she's your mother not that it should entitle her to special treatment because she gave birth to you or anything, but because severing ties with your mother isn't something to be taken lightly. When there's other family involved you're dealing with a lifelong separation. It's not like changing jobs or something.

The next thing to consider is that the reasons you suggested are why you shouldn't contact your mother aren't good reasons.

1. Well, she created this situation by what she said to me, so I should not be responsible for her sadness
2. I'm sorry it's having a negative effect on everyone else, but I would like you to see that the way she treated me had a negative effect on ME and that's what I am dealing with right now
3. It isn't right that she should cut me off and that I should be the one initiating contact. Furthermore, I have no apologies for her, so I don't know what you want me to call up and say. And, communication is a two way street. She hasn't tried to call me.

I'll translate this into what your family is hearing:


It wasn't me, she did it!
I don't care about other people just myself
why do I have to apologize? It's not my fault!


Now if you were four, these arguments might sound appropriate. As an adult you should realize that sometimes "I didn't start it. Not my fault. She said it first" aren't good reasons to stick to your guns and support severing contact. I agree with previous posters that said you can contact her and open discussion without actually apologizing for the behavior of not going to the engagement party. You can contact her and apologize or show regret for having the conversation end the way it did or apologize for any things you might have said that might've been hurtful towards her during that conversation. I'd go so far to say that you could contact her and not apologize for anything, merely open dialogue with her again and leave it is water under the bridge. I can understand why you'd want your mother to make the initiative and I agree with you that her mother really ought to be the one to approach you on this, but it doesn't look like she's going to do it. So if anyone is going to take the initiative it is going to have to be you.

Not what I said above is looking only at this incident. It doesn't take into account how often this occurs with your mother and whether you've had to make in these gestures before. As I mentioned in the first paragraph if she really is a large negative influence on your life and you think severing ties is going to help you in the long run then by all means do so, but I wouldn't say that your mother's unwillingness to resolve this issue with you without your own prompting is worth the stalemate. To your family you both look exceedingly and needlessly stubborn.

[Elfrun]

I agree with Aronnax's first suggestion.

Your dad's stuck in the middle and just trying to make it right, what are the chances he's either having similar conversations with your mother trying to get her to call you or constantly having your mother in his ear about what you've done wrong? Sounds like he just wants harmony.

Put you first, get healthy and make sure you don't hold onto any negative emotions in regards to your relationship with your mother. If she wishes to apologise let her and if you can, accept it, but if this is reflective of the kind of interaction you have with her normally then you may need to distance yourself until she is able to treat you well, that means not yelling at you, not calling you names, not insulting or wishing bad things on you or any other behaviour that puts you down, if she is unable to do that then while she will always be your mother you may not be able to have a healthy relationship with her.

I don't know. It seems the majority here except MikeC (whom I agree with) is suggesting that the OP break off her relationship with her own mother after one phone call.

Read her other thread.

Clearly, we are on opposite sides of the spectrum. Perhaps, like you, I want to win all the time. But nothing gets in the way of my family. There is nothing that can't be patched up. I'd lose a battle if I can still win the war.

Perhaps we have differing family values?

In my life there is nothing worth more than family but family values aren't worth shit when there's abuse, problem is someone who has been abused cannot get healthy and see things for how they really are until they step away. I'm not saying that's what MyOtherSelf should do but the relationship sounds, at the least, verbally abusive, and the mention of depression indicate things that need to be dealt with, being around her family may not be the best environment to do that.

[LionsPride]

Read her other thread.

I read her other thread and I agree that the relationship seems to be a toxic one, but I'm not sure that severing ties is going to work, at least for the OP in the state she's in. This appears to be the same incident as before, but deeper into the stalemate and this is what the OP said previously:

So many people are advising cutting off ties. Do you suggest permanently? Even though my mom has technically cut me off, I am certain this is just her way of kicking and screaming. But I can't imagine going through life with no parents. Well, I can imagine it, but it seems like it would be rather sad.

If you plan on severing ties, you have to walk away and be prepared to never go back, as is the case when the parent is mentally ill or abusive. I'm not sure the OP is looking at this as a permanent severing of ties. Which brings me to what is the OP holding out for? An apology? Better behaviour from her mom? Her family to side with her? All of those things sound great, but I'm not sure that holding this stalemate is going to bring them to pass. I agree that if the situation is as toxic as it sounds, then something has to be done, but I'm not sure that this is the opportunity that the OP was looking for because I'm not sure the OP is ready to handle it. Nor is it the kind of opportunity that is going to allow her to keep contact with anyone else in the family. She describes that the family is going to side with her mother and isolate her and if she isn't ready for that, well, it's going to be hard. The OP is going to have to decide if being isolated is better for her than putting up with her mother's behaviour and chances are that it might be better, but unless the OP believes that, it's going to be a hard ride.

I didn't notice any comments about whether or not the OP was seeing a therapist or had gone for counseling. I may have missed them, but if the OP hasn't seen a counselor then this stand might be premature. Not because it shouldn't be done, but because the OP isn't ready. It might be worth meeting with someone to determine what sort of ground rules the OP wants to offer to her mother if she does come back and learn some tools as to how to successfully speak with her mother without the heart racing response. That approach might be one that should be tried before turning a back on the family entirely. For the OP's own mental health.

[JRant]

I also had a situation with my mother a couple years ago, I'd had enough of the mother/child behavior, seeing as I was 48 yrs old and felt it was time she started treating me like the adult I was. I basically stopped calling except to find out how she was (about once a month), I did not discuss anything going on in my life or my childrens life -I did not need to hear her opinion. Whenever she threw in one of her snide remarks, I would remove myself from the conversation. We are on better terms now, her behavior changed, she understands completely that I will not be mistreated just because I'm her child. You have to become the adult in this situation, insist on respect-if this was a stranger treating you like this would you let them !? Stop being so needy for your mothers approval that you'll let her mistreat you. I wish I would have put a stop to our disfunctional behavior a lot sooner - perhaps we would have a better mother/daughter relationship now.

[MyOtherSelf]

To clarify some things-

1. I don't want to severe ties, in my ideal world, I would like my mother to show me a normal amount of respect. I know I can't change her, but I need her to stop being critical or to be less critical of me as a person and the decisions I make so I can become a healthy, autonomous adult. (It comes down to things as simple as when I tell her I have too much work and no time to join her at something, she doesn't insult me and become nasty)

2. I would like her to stop screaming and using harsh language. I have insisted on this in the past and she has gotten better, but in states of extreme rage, she still reverts to this

3. The reason I am refusing to end the stalemate is because I feel that my dad is trying to push for a resolution that isn't ready to happen. We do this everytime, and I know exactly how the conversation is going to go, and I know from experience that if I call her when we're both still pissed off, it won't be productive in the long term. Also, to be quite honest, I am enjoying this separation. I feel like not having to talk to her is allowing me to focus on myself in a way I haven't been able to before. I feel like I can breath.

4. I'm seeing a therapist, and I told her last week I wanted to resolve things and do the old patch it up routine, and she advised me not to rush into this sort of resolution. She doesn't believe that I will lose touch with my mother, but she does believe that if I want my mother to see me as an adult or to act differently, I may have to stick to my guns. She also thought I could benefit from this time with no contact with my mother, which I think she has been right about.

5. When I do talk to my mom the conversation is going to involve a good deal of bashing me and ordering me around and telling me "how" I should treat my mother and I really am not ready to handle that right now. She's very, very, very, very DIFFICULT to communicate with. Part of my incentive to remain in the stalemate (part, not all) probably stems from dread.

Does this help clarify things?

[mrStevens]

The OP mentioned that she sees a counselor in the other thread.

Detaching with love is a tool they give you. It's not permanent (is anything really permanent besides death?) but allows the person to get some breathing room and rebuild their self-esteem before initiating contact again. The ability to withstand or speak up against abusive behavior towards oneself without resorting to emotions (e.g. maintain healthy boundaries) takes a great amount of self-confidence. It's hard to build that up when one is in the trenches of an abusive relationship.

EDIT: I see that the OP responded before I was able to hit the button to post this. Please disregard.

[Double Victory]

Though my mom has never been intentionally abusive, she hasn't always been a great mother and she has a tendency to be very illogical with her arguments. We don't argue all the time, though, like it seems your mother does with you.

But really, how I view this is if my mom died tomorrow, how would I feel? I'm sure that even though she's a pain you love her. You don't have to wait for your dad to tell your mom that you'll accept her apology whenever she's ready, you could tell your mom that yourself. Even if she'll just argue, and even though you'll most likely end up arguing back, I think it's better than leaving a situation unresolved.

Another thing is even if the both of you are truly upset with each other at the end of the conversation, say "I love you" before you hang up.

With your dad, instead of telling him why you shouldn't be the one to call her, why don't you tell him the root of the problem, which is that you feel your mother's actions are abusive and unhealthy and you can't keep living like this, and that your mother is going to have to do something to change. Even when your family is upset, they still listen to you.

EDIT: After reading your other post on here, if you know how things are going to turn out then it seems like you probably already know what you're going to have to do. I'm sorry that you have such a difficult situation to deal with. If your mom has gotten better about screaming though, then there's always hope that she can get better about other things. Don't give up hope.

[cannotseethe]

Obviously OPs mother must've done something right if the daughter didn't end up a complete mess, right?

This is perverse. OP did something right by coming out of that situation sane.

My read of the OP's situation both from the other thread and this one is that the mother is abusive. One cannot overestimate the damage done by being called a bitch by your parents. Something that's easy to miss is the damage done by the father's behavior as well: he doesn't have her best interests in mind. The rationalizations about the mother's sadness and the good of the family are disguising his codependent/enabling role. This is straight up emotional abuse coming from both parents. One is raging, the other is needling, but both are in the wrong.

If it were me I'd sever that relationship (the disclaimer being that I've done exactly that with my own sperm/egg donors, so take it with a grain of salt). Whatever pain that might cause in the short term is the price you pay for freedom from a lifetime of soul-crushing abuse. For the sentimental or hopeful sorts, you can look at it as a temporary assertion of independence, a reset that informs the parents unequivocally that their behavior is not acceptable. If the OP continues to suck it up for some bullshit notion like "the good of the family," then she will be a doormat the rest of her life. She's said enough about the mom to make that plain.

[Blendy]

OP did something right by coming out of that situation sane.

This is straight up emotional abuse coming from both parents. One is raging, the other is needling, but both are in the wrong.


Agreed. MyOtherSelf, your mother sounds like she has untreated Borderline Personality Disorder, and that your father is a classic enabler (as is often the case with spouses of people with BPD). I'd recommend against further engaging with either her or your father (at least for a while), as you'll likely just face further abuse. I'd recommend "Stop Walking on Eggshells" if you're interested in how to communicate with people with BPD.

[mrStevens]

But really, how I view this is if my mom died tomorrow, how would I feel? I'm sure that even though she's a pain you love her. You don't have to wait for your dad to tell your mom that you'll accept her apology whenever she's ready, you could tell your mom that yourself. Even if she'll just argue, and even though you'll most likely end up arguing back, I think it's better than leaving a situation unresolved.

Another thing is even if the both of you are truly upset with each other at the end of the conversation, say "I love you" before you hang up.

With your dad, instead of telling him why you shouldn't be the one to call her, why don't you tell him the root of the problem, which is that you feel your mother's actions are abusive and unhealthy and you can't keep living like this, and that your mother is going to have to do something to change. Even when your family is upset, they still listen to you.

EDIT: After reading your other post on here, if you know how things are going to turn out then it seems like you probably already know what you're going to have to do. I'm sorry that you have such a difficult situation to deal with. If your mom has gotten better about screaming though, then there's always hope that she can get better about other things. Don't give up hope.
Thank you for editing your post. I do see a trend of posts from people who aren't familiar with personality disorders or who seem to write it off as 'fixable.' The danger of these statements is it may inadvertently send the message that the OP is the problem and that she should just keep the peace and stop being difficult and start being a good daughter.

My father is a difficult parent as well. He has not and will most likely NEVER listen to me. Period. My therapist has helped me come to this realization and it has helped me to move forward instead of keep on banging my head against a wall (figuratively speaking).

You can not reason with these people. It is just not possible. They see the world in a dysfunctional way and even years of therapy and medication is NOT a guarantee fix. 'Survivors' (the people who live with these people) are taught coping techniques and come to realize that their lives will NEVER be normal as long as they are in the relationship. There is no way to resolve the relationship as some people here think. I know this may sound cold but many survivors feel relief after the parent or spouse with the disorder passes away. That's right, relief, and it is not wrong to do so. These people have been through a living hell.

I said it before and I'll repeat it here. It is like being in a forever war. The survivors need a lot of love and support from outside sources and they will have their good and bad days. They will cry. They will shout. They will feel like shit. The worst thing you can do for them is write them off with statements like 'Oh, just apologize. She's your mother after all. It's not that bad.' Granted it is possible that the OP's mother may not have a personality disorder but if she does we do her a great disservice by not hearing what she is saying.

[mormeguil]

This whole story actually looks like what my grand-mother and my mother have lived. To be entirely honest my grand-mother does not want to change and things have been very superficial between her and my mom.

So remember, your not the only person ho as know this and I have to say my mother is probably one of the most intelligent, strong and truthfull women I have know.

Always remeber :" Everything always end up alright"

[cannotseethe]

'Survivors' (the people who live with these people) are taught coping techniques and come to realize that their lives will NEVER be normal as long as they are in the relationship. There is no way to resolve the relationship as some people here think. I know this may sound cold but many survivors feel relief after the parent or spouse with the disorder passes away. That's right, relief, and it is not wrong to do so. These people have been through a living hell.

This.

An alcoholic cannot know how healthy feels until they've spent some time sober. A smoker cannot know what it's like to breathe until they've been off cigarettes awhile. An abused person cannot know what a healthy relationship feels like until they've extricated themselves from the abusive dynamic.

Like many dysfunctions, abusive relationships have characteristic patterns. The appeal to "family values" is one of them. The abused person is told by their parents they are misbehaving if they make moves to protect themselves. The parents are abusing the power they have over their child to maintain the abusive dynamic. The pisser is that it sounds right; that's why it works. But it is not healthy, and it will never end unless the person asserts themselves against the dynamic. The most powerful and successful assertion, as mrStevens says, is extracting themselves from the pattern, at least for awhile, so they can see and experience what life is like without it.

I've gone through several cycles of this with my parents. We reconnected after my divorce because, frankly, I needed support and they were there. We reconnected after my grandmother's death because they needed support and I was there. Each time it seemed like we'd reset, that we'd finally gotten past the dysfunction. Each time we ended up right back in the cycle of abuse even though I've been through years of therapy and knew quite a bit about how to handle it. I'm 14 years older than the OP. She can look forward to decades of pain if her situation is anything like mine.

This is why I suggest severing the relationship completely for awhile.

[SShack]

I just ... wouldn't ask for advice about this matter on this forum any longer. Many responses are pretty clouded by their own perceptions of their relationships with their family and are unable to set that aside.

Some of the advice people are giving in this thread is just genuinely awful -- not pointing fingers. Rely more on advice from those who know you and your situation better than a bunch of strangers who may or may not have their own issues, agendas, and priorities.

[Double Victory]

Thank you for editing your post. I do see a trend of posts from people who aren't familiar with personality disorders or who seem to write it off as 'fixable.' The danger of these statements is it may inadvertently send the message that the OP is the problem and that she should just keep the peace and stop being difficult and start being a good daughter.

My father is a difficult parent as well. He has not and will most likely NEVER listen to me. Period. My therapist has helped me come to this realization and it has helped me to move forward instead of keep on banging my head against a wall (figuratively speaking).

You can not reason with these people. It is just not possible. They see the world in a dysfunctional way and even years of therapy and medication is NOT a guarantee fix. 'Survivors' (the people who live with these people) are taught coping techniques and come to realize that their lives will NEVER be normal as long as they are in the relationship. There is no way to resolve the relationship as some people here think. I know this may sound cold but many survivors feel relief after the parent or spouse with the disorder passes away. That's right, relief, and it is not wrong to do so. These people have been through a living hell.

I said it before and I'll repeat it here. It is like being in a forever war. The survivors need a lot of love and support from outside sources and they will have their good and bad days. They will cry. They will shout. They will feel like shit. The worst thing you can do for them is write them off with statements like 'Oh, just apologize. She's your mother after all. It's not that bad.' Granted it is possible that the OP's mother may not have a personality disorder but if she does we do her a great disservice by not hearing what she is saying.

It's hard to tell through stories on the internet alone whether a person is really that bad or not. And I definitely understand if she is; if she's downright, positively abusive I would sever contact completely. My ex-step-dad (the father of my half-sister) is that way. He has joint custody with my mom over my sister, and since the courts don't believe a word my mom says and they don't care what my 11yo sister says, she has to see him every week. If she had her way she would never see him again. If I had things my way, it'd be the same. I edited my post when I read the screaming part, because that was the biggest part of my ex-step-dad. If the mother here is truly a sociopath, then I wouldn't bother with anything.

I'm sure it's much more difficult when it's your mother vs step-father, but for me the most healing thing that ever helped me was to simply just stop caring about him at all. After moving out I was able to remove him from my life. I don't feel positively or negatively about him at all anymore, and honestly at points now I feel sorry for him. I should be angry for everything he's done, and continues to do to my sister, but I don't anymore.

So to the OP, if your mother is like that, then that's something to consider. Again, I'm sorry that it has to be your mother; it must be really difficult. I can't imagine having lived with someone like that my entire life.

[cannotseethe]

I just ... wouldn't ask for advice about this matter on this forum any longer. Many responses are pretty clouded by their own perceptions of their relationships with their family and are unable to set that aside.

Some of the advice people are giving in this thread is just genuinely awful -- not pointing fingers. Rely more on advice from those who know you and your situation better than a bunch of strangers who may or may not have their own issues, agendas, and priorities.

Bah.

The OP is an intelligent adult. She can collate what's been said here and make her own decision. I take it that's why she's posting. It's a given that people who post here have their own slants, and that only she knows her own situation well enough to actually decide something within it.

Besides, in abusive families, many family members are either directly codependent or they are stuck in hypocrisy traps (they haven't asserted themselves so far and are afraid to look like hypocrites if they suddenly start). Seeking advice from them is even worse than seeking advice from strangers, who at least have some distance from the situation itself, if not from their own biases.

[vern]

Bah.

The OP is an intelligent adult. She can collate what's been said here and make her own decision. I take it that's why she's posting. It's a given that people who post here have their own slants, and that only she knows her own situation well enough to actually decide something within it.

Besides, in abusive families, many family members are either directly codependent or they are stuck in hypocrisy traps (they haven't asserted themselves so far and are afraid to look like hypocrites if they suddenly start). Seeking advice from them is even worse than seeking advice from strangers, who at least have some distance from the situation itself, if not from their own biases.

Indeed, and the process of freeing oneself from the unhealthy process in itself is the best thing anyone who has grown up in an abusive situation can do for themselves!

I just relived this briefly with the passing of my grandmother, it disturbs me how so many potentially wonderful human beings disservice themselves by clinging to what is unhealthy and further spread it to those around them, and those are the people the profess to love best.

[MyOtherSelf]

Besides, in abusive families, many family members are either directly codependent or they are stuck in hypocrisy traps (they haven't asserted themselves so far and are afraid to look like hypocrites if they suddenly start). Seeking advice from them is even worse than seeking advice from strangers, who at least have some distance from the situation itself, if not from their own biases.

This is very true, and this is why I seek outside advice. And in fact, I'd say the advice has had very little impact on what I actually decided, but an enormous impact on how I feel and on my ability to objectively assess the situation. I haven't taken any one person's advice and run with it, but it's been incredibly helpful to see many different points of view. This is WAY more valuable than just having mine, my dad's, and my mom's point of view. Obviously none of them are objective. When you're clouded by your emotions and upset and in need of help, sometimes an objective group of strangers CAN offer something valuable.

In addition, people with more life experience than me are able to help me understand how my actions might play out in the future. It's very scary for me to have no contact with a parent, because that may turn into no contact for the rest of my life even if that isn't what I ultimately want. When I see how these relationships evolve over time, it helps me understand the implications of my actions today. I've decided to take a stand now, when the subject of our contraversy isn't all too critical (not going to some engagement party), because otherwise my mom's behaviour might get worse, and might negatively impact me if I choose to get married and have children and make choices in these areas that she does not approve of. I absolutely refuse to let her screw up my potential family or relationships. That is just not an option for me. I'd rather do something about it now.

[mcantrim]

You sound like you are taking a very healthy approach to all of this - good for you! Keep up the thoughful exploration of your options so that you can make the choices you need to make and always remember that the only person you can control in the situation is yourself. I think that you are going to make the right decisions for you.

[LionsPride]

4. I'm seeing a therapist, and I told her last week I wanted to resolve things and do the old patch it up routine, and she advised me not to rush into this sort of resolution. She doesn't believe that I will lose touch with my mother, but she does believe that if I want my mother to see me as an adult or to act differently, I may have to stick to my guns. She also thought I could benefit from this time with no contact with my mother, which I think she has been right about.

I would stick with the advice from the therapist. I'm curious though, has she given any advice to you about talking about this situation with the rest of the family? I still think that the conversation you had with your father and the reasons you gave him isn't the discussion you needed to have with him. The reasons you gave shouldn't be the real reasons you are keeping your distance and they are about the specific incident not the history and therefore won't make sense to others as to why you are behaving differently. Did you tell him things like the following too?

I'm having a hard time with the way my mother yells and insults me and I need some more time to deal with what happened.
I'd like to have a healthy relationship with my mother, but I'm not prepared to develop that at the moment, please be patient with me and we'll get through this.
We've talked about me wanting some more distance from my mother and this is giving me the chance to get some. I know it's hard on you and the family right now and I'm really sorry that you are going through this with us, but I'm doing it because I want to continue to be a part of the family in the future and I can't be if this cycle with her and I continues.
I need time to work on my own behaviours because I realize that my responses and the way we communicate in the past haven't helped the situation and I need to learn how to better handle these disagreements more constructively.**


Can you see the difference between the above and what you were saying to him?

1. Well, she created this situation by what she said to me, so I should not be responsible for her sadness
2. I'm sorry it's having a negative effect on everyone else, but I would like you to see that the way she treated me had a negative effect on ME and that's what I am dealing with right now
3. It isn't right that she should cut me off and that I should be the one initiating contact. Furthermore, I have no apologies for her, so I don't know what you want me to call up and say. And, communication is a two way street. She hasn't tried to call me.

**I'm not implying that your mother isn't the main issue, only that saying you are working on yourself as well makes the family that thinks you are part of the problem feel that you aren't throwing stones when you have your own sins. It's a perception thing for the family, not a critique of you on my part.

[MyOtherSelf]

Update: Got a phone call from home for the first time in 4 weeks, and I answered and my mother was hysterical, yelling, and being very mean. She called me a liar, unappreciative of everything she's done, said I have no integrity, said I care about my friends more than my family (how can anyone not when their family is hurtful to them? that doesn't seem to me to be a healthy or desirable thing to change)

I tried to remove myseld from the situation as it was happening and see it as an objective person would. Of course, this was not easy to do given what she was saying, but at one point in the conversation I had a very distinct thought: She is trying to assert her power over me. It was a very gut reaction. Once I realized that, I stopped defending myself and my responses changed to "I'm sorry, but this is who I am, and this is the best I can do."

Of course, she didn't notice, she only seemed to care about what she was saying. But geez is she good at making people feel like crap. Am I a terrible person for wanting independence? For wanting to spend time with my friends instead of family? All the years I tried to make her happy and do what she wanted, I was miserable. So I stopped prioritizing her needs over mine. When I made the choice to do this, I also became financially independent, because this seemed fair. I wouldn't want to be taking money from my parents if it's my way or the highway.

Am I a terrible person for trying to protect myself? She makes me feel this way, although I've gotten better at realizing that half the things that come out of her mouth are complete crap. She seems to geniunely believe the things she is saying about me, and this makes it disconcerting, even though I don't truly believe I'm a bad person. If I am, then I think most people must be bad people too...

---------- Post added 12-28-2009 at 12:33 PM ----------



Can you see the difference between the above and what you were saying to him?

Yes, I definitely can, but at the moment unfortunately all those truths seem irrelevant. It was very, very, very hard for me not to lose control during my conversation with her...any sort of complex rational thought wasn't going to happen....and the few times I've managed it...it's literally as if she only hears 1., what she's saying, and 2., anything I say that she WANTED me to say. Anything that doesn't fall into those categories seems to go in one ear and out the other...

The best I was able to do on the phone was stick to simple phrases and repeat them. But we weren't discussing the bigger issue, it was mostly her bringing up the things about me that she thinks are bad and bashing me for it. I tried to come up with the right thing to say but after a few minutes my gut told me to end the conversation, so I did. I"m glad I did. It was going nowhere and it was making me feel like Sh**, and I"m not sure if that's the most productive thing to be happening to me right now.

[LionsPride]

Yes, I definitely can, but at the moment unfortunately all those truths seem irrelevant. It was very, very, very hard for me not to lose control during my conversation with her...any sort of complex rational thought wasn't going to happen....and the few times I've managed it...it's literally as if she only hears 1., what she's saying, and 2., anything I say that she WANTED me to say. Anything that doesn't fall into those categories seems to go in one ear and out the other...

The best I was able to do on the phone was stick to simple phrases and repeat them. But we weren't discussing the bigger issue, it was mostly her bringing up the things about me that she thinks are bad and bashing me for it. I tried to come up with the right thing to say but after a few minutes my gut told me to end the conversation, so I did. I"m glad I did. It was going nowhere and it was making me feel like Sh**, and I"m not sure if that's the most productive thing to be happening to me right now.

I completely agree. Those comments I made were for your father or the rest of the family, not her. They were also intended for a conversation that wasn't immediately after the fact.

Hang in there. She wasn't calling to talk, only threaten. You couldn't have done anything to have made something good out of that conversation.

[mrStevens]

Hey MOS. No, you are not a terrible person for trying to protect yourself. It's your job, and NO ONE is going to do that for you better than yourself. It is your numero uno priority. I'm really sorry you had to go through that again.

Here's another tool for getting out of those situations. Lying. When someone criticizes you and you don't agree with their criticism, say "Thank you for your constructive feedback. I'll definitely think about what you said. I'm sorry, but I really have to (insert college activity or errand here), I'll talk to you later." You don't have to believe what they say, just say this to end the conversation. It's a nice way of saying 'Thanks but no thanks.' and get the hell out of there before you really get steamed.

[Tyrant Soup]

Have you tried going to counseling with her? Having an impartial facilitator to keep exchanges civil and on track might prove constructive.

[Vagrant]

Hey MOS, I'm sorry to hear she's still giving you such crap. You are perfectly within reason to be holding your ground, and you're doing an amazing job. Keep on troopin'.