Going Under the Knife

[Aurelia]

Does cosmetic surgery make beauty more accessible or does it create unrealistic standards of beauty in our society? For the male INTJs in particular, would you have any issues dating a woman who has gone under extensive reconstruction to look beautiful?

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[pavman]

Does cosmetic surgery make beauty more accessible or does it create unrealistic standards of beauty in our society? For the male INTJs in particular, would you have any issues dating a woman who has gone under extensive reconstruction to look beautiful?

Unrealistic standards of beauty.

No, I wouldn't have issues until I found out about how shallow and callous she was. Then, depending on some factors, I might dump her ;)

Some of those women don't look anything like each other...you sure that's accurate?

[Aurelia]

Yes, this particular group of women is from the show called "The Swan" where women (after undergoing plastic surgery and working with nutritionists/personal trainers for three months) were eliminated on a weekly basis by participating in a pageant.

[Uytuun]

The swans look so fake. To me that isn't beauty. Sorry swans.

I also wonder what they look like in normal lighting with normal clothes without a team of of make-up artists to transform their faces.

IMHO most of these women could have gone a long way with a much less drastic makeover (clothes, hair, basic make-up techniques, posture, mental coach etc.)

That doesn't answer your question...I'll think about it.

[PRBori]

I think most women who undergo plastic surgery have low self-steem and image issues. I can understand someone who had an accident or is really disconfigured, but not someone that is normal.

For me, whoever is with me has to accept me as I am. I'm happy the way God made me, and I see no need to alter it. In addition, most women who go thru surgery are always wasting money on more. They get addicted to it.

Bottom line, no matter how much money you spend to look good, you are going to end up OLD and raggitty... there is no way to avoid that. I would probably spend that money on something more useful or help someone who really need it rather than beutify myself.

[dandylion]

Does cosmetic surgery make beauty more accessible or does it create unrealistic standards of beauty in our society?
I don't really understand this question. How would cosmetic surgery create standards of beauty? There isn't a universal beauty standard, and I doubt there ever will be. The idea of beauty is subjective.

I think those women look a lot worse in their afters than in their befores. I can't help but think about how much makeup (and surgery) to make her look like that. Imagine having them being stuck on a desert island with no makeup or fancy dresses... It's like they all have a curse like Fiona's in that Shrek movie (where she turns into an ogre at sunset). *shudders* Why couldn't they just stick to good ol' diet and exercise (and makeup, which is much more readily accessible than cosmetic surgery)?

Shows like these are ridiculous. How do people come up with them? Do they just sit there and suddenly have a brain blast: "HEY!! Wouldn't it be cool if we gave a bunch of average or less than average-looking women makeovers and humiliate them through weekly eliminations and whatnot?!"

How come I never hear about guys getting work done (except Michael Jackson)?

[Aurelia]

I don't really understand this question. How would cosmetic surgery create standards of beauty? There isn't a universal beauty standard, and I doubt there ever will be. The idea of beauty is subjective.



As the rest of the world becomes more exposed to Western media, the idea of beauty becomes more homogenized. For example women in Asia purposefully whiten their skin, undergo blepharoplasty to enlarge their eyes, breast augmentation and nasal implants to imitate the high nasal bridges of Caucasians.
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Look at the women shown in "The Swan" picture. The procedures were done in an almost cookie cutter like fashion. Get skinner, bigger breasts and almost all of them became blonder. The cosmetic surgery industry is not solely responsible for creating beauty standards but it most certainly plays a significant role.

The idea of reality shows such as "The Swan" is sickening. Yet, more and more women (and men) each year flock to cosmetic surgeons to get a number of procedures done.

[iamnotspock]

This increase in cosmetic surgery is a result of several societal factors:

1. Increased media presence. Now, more than ever, we share pictures of ourselves. Or videos. Thus, looks become more important than they did back when encounters were in person, and factors like charm, presence, etc. played into it. Now, it's pure image.

2. Globalization. It used to be you compared yourself to your village. Now you play in a global pool. This means you compare what you got against a much bigger group, and of course the bigger the group, the more beautiful ones. This is just like Keeping up with the Joneses. For body parts.

3. Death of culture. Basically, we are always dating. B/c marriage vows don't mean much. Cheating is all over the place. People start hookng up when they are ten, wait until 30-something to get married and are divorced before 40. So things remain in the shallow side almost all of the time. And women are thus always needing to boost up their options with procedures.

4. Sexual saturation. Capitalist society has learned that sex sells. So sex is everywhere. This is unlike most of history, where sex was kept under wraps to maintain cultural cohesion. Since sex sells, women must be sexy. Thus, more procedures.

I believe that items 1 and 2 cannot be stopped. But item 3 and 4 could be constrained with strong cultural values. Sadly, these values were shattered by the sexual revolution of the 60's and the women's movement, which fought to let women do whatever they wanted, in particular, have as much sex as they wanted, without consequence, due to the pill. This undermined marriage and family values in general. This was worsened when divorce laws awarding alimony and child support created incentives that undermine marriage -- lawyers make money on divorces -- and made it okay to have kids willy-nilly, outside of traditional family structure.

Ironically, this liberal socialist agenda, designed to improve the lot of women, has come back full circle to harm them by undermining their sense of security, putting increasing pressure on them to look sexy at ever younger ages, and causing them to resort to things like surgical procedures to boost their self-esteem. It is no surprise at all that rates of depression, anorexia, bulimia, etc. have increased, along with surgical procedures.

Some days, when I look at what happened to America, I can understand where the Taliban is coming from. Overall, we created a shallow society dripping in artifice. However, given that this is the playing field, I cannot blame any woman who plays the game, and boosts her chances of finding a mate, getting a job, etc. by getting work done.

As for dating, I've railed elsewhere against shallow image-based approaches -- deciding in 30 seconds, sorting by pictures, etc. So I don't believe that my approach would be influenced a lot by how big her boobs were post-surgery. I might suspect she had low self-esteem though, which is a turn-off.

[Colette]

This increase in cosmetic surgery is a result of several societal factors:

1. Increased media presence. Now, more than ever, we share pictures of ourselves. Or videos. Thus, looks become more important than they did back when encounters were in person, and factors like charm, presence, etc. played into it. Now, it's pure image.

2. Globalization. It used to be you compared yourself to your village. Now you play in a global pool. This means you compare what you got against a much bigger group, and of course the bigger the group, the more beautiful ones. This is just like Keeping up with the Joneses. For body parts.

3. Death of culture. Basically, we are always dating. B/c marriage vows don't mean much. Cheating is all over the place. People start hookng up when they are ten, wait until 30-something to get married and are divorced before 40. So things remain in the shallow side almost all of the time. And women are thus always needing to boost up their options with procedures.

4. Sexual saturation. Capitalist society has learned that sex sells. So sex is everywhere. This is unlike most of history, where sex was kept under wraps to maintain cultural cohesion. Since sex sells, women must be sexy. Thus, more procedures.

I believe that items 1 and 2 cannot be stopped. But item 3 and 4 could be constrained with strong cultural values. Sadly, these values were shattered by the sexual revolution of the 60's and the women's movement, which fought to let women do whatever they wanted, in particular, have as much sex as they wanted, without consequence, due to the pill. This undermined marriage and family values in general. This was worsened when divorce laws awarding alimony and child support created incentives that undermine marriage -- lawyers make money on divorces -- and made it okay to have kids willy-nilly, outside of traditional family structure.

Ironically, this liberal socialist agenda, designed to improve the lot of women, has come back full circle to harm them by undermining their sense of security, putting increasing pressure on them to look sexy at ever younger ages, and causing them to resort to things like surgical procedures to boost their self-esteem. It is no surprise at all that rates of depression, anorexia, bulimia, etc. have increased, along with surgical procedures.

Some days, when I look at what happened to America, I can understand where the Taliban is coming from. Overall, we created a shallow society dripping in artifice. However, given that this is the playing field, I cannot blame any woman who plays the game, and boosts her chances of finding a mate, getting a job, etc. by getting work done.

As for dating, I've railed elsewhere against shallow image-based approaches -- deciding in 30 seconds, sorting by pictures, etc. So I don't believe that my approach would be influenced a lot by how big her boobs were post-surgery. I might suspect she had low self-esteem though, which is a turn-off.

Hehe. I wonder how you can possibly reconcile this view, with your most recent post about the horrors of 'fat women' on the dating thread. You're an interesting mass of contradictions, spock.

[iamnotspock]

*** ignores useless provocation ***

[JTG]

I don't like fake bodies, both because i think it's a dishonest way to look good and there's just something fundamentally unattractive about it in my eyes. It's an aesthetics thing i guess.

[coffeeloverfreak]

Ugh. Fake boobs, fake noses, fake tans. If plastic surgery only makes people turn ugly and orange, then why do so many people flock to it?

[Aurelia]

*** ignores useless provocation ***

Far from being useless... You're against shallow image-based approaches EXCEPT when it comes to fat women right? :suspicious:

[anul]

I generally think people who had plastic surgery are ugly, because it looks ugly. It doesn't look natural and it doesn't fool me. All of those women that are pictured in the OP I wouldn't date them before or after. Because they're ugly in both pictures. Maybe if they had winning personalities I would change my mind. Since intelligence is more important than looks. But based on looks I would never want a relationship with those women.

Additionally their hair and make up are done professionally in the after picture. Unless those women learned how to do their hair and make up properly they'll look like hobos again when their hair grows out in a month.

[Antares]

I always wondered why people would want plastic surgery. Maybe their natural beauty was non-existent to need something so superficial in order to receive shallow attention with zero substance. I find that intelligence and depth of character gives one beauty. In Chinese, there's a term for that, and it's 气质 (I can express this in Chinese better. Some words just don't translate). If AoG or mind_wander is here, they'd probably understand it. I have no experience in cosmetics; are their bodies changed as well? Some of them don't quite have figure before.

[rwyatt365]

Personally, I think that having surgery to alter one's physical being is "cheating". In essence it's akin to false advertising - and there are laws against that.

I am far more attracted to someone that is comfortable "in their own skin", than to someone that feels the need to alter themselves in order to be acceptable. The thought that would go through my mind is, "What ELSE will you do to achieve some arbitrary standard of beauty?"

I do have some hypocracy though. I appreciate what to me is physically beautiful; a pleasant face, well-proportioned curves, ample hips and shapely legs. But none of the women that I've dated, and neither of my wives would be characterized as "traffic-stoppers", and that doesn't bother me one bit.

[rwyatt365]

BTW, none of the "before" girls was physically unappealing. Lack of confidence and personality assasination is a terrible thing. I watched some portion of "The Swan" when it was on, and was revolted by the concept.

[Jgib5328]

I think most people who undergo cosmetic surgery are pathetic. I want a woman who is naturally beautiful and is confident. However, if there is something seriously wrong with the face, like a medical issue then I think it is ok. I still wouldn't want to date her though, I prefer natural things. Whenever my friends say, "Wow she (a famous movie star) has nice tits" I just say, "Dude they are fake, they don't count" (please excuse the juvenile and crude language). I just can't stand fake things.

[PortInStorm]

I think what people ignore are the risks that come with plastic surgery. For instance, as I'm sure you guys know, there is growing evidence that breast implants cause a syndrome of extreme fatigue, infection, lack of strength, hair loss etc. Why would you sacrifice your health for looks? And say this set of breasts doesn't hurt you, you have to replace them every 10 to 15 years (that's if you're happy with the surgery every time ie. no corrective surgeries).

And as someone else mentioned, what about giving that money for homes or food for those who have none? There's a balance of course, and if it's causing you severe suffering or mockery etc., then maybe the nose job etc is worth it.

[Jgib5328]

And as someone else mentioned, what about giving that money for homes or food for those who have none? There's a balance of course, and if it's causing you severe suffering or mockery etc., then maybe the nose job etc is worth it.

I don't think they should have to give their money to someone else. When you make money, it should be spent to your liking. If that liking happens to be helping the poor, then it is ok, but you should never feel obligated to help another person and acting out of obligation is never just, because it means that you aren't really helping them because you want to, but because you have to.

Off-topic, but I hate comments like that.

[Colette]

I think what people ignore are the risks that come with plastic surgery. For instance, as I'm sure you guys know, there is growing evidence that breast implants cause a syndrome of extreme fatigue, infection, lack of strength, hair loss etc. Why would you sacrifice your health for looks? And say this set of breasts doesn't hurt you, you have to replace them every 10 to 15 years (that's if you're happy with the surgery every time ie. no corrective surgeries).

And as someone else mentioned, what about giving that money for homes or food for those who have none? There's a balance of course, and if it's causing you severe suffering or mockery etc., then maybe the nose job etc is worth it.

Well I'm sort of in two minds on this issue. Intuitively, my NT-ness induces me to agree with the views of everyone else on this thread.

However I am also aware there are many women (and men even) who define themselves in terms exclusively or primarily of physical appearance, and their self-esteem and sense of self is dependent upon 'looking good', or 'looking young' or whatever. For this group of people (and despite the risks and financial outlay that has been talked about), plastic surgery may be the only way they can retain a strong self-image.

Ideally, they need to develop deeper concepts of what and who they are as people, but in many cases this can't or won't happen. Can it be right then to say to these people that "plastic surgery is wrong" and they shouldn't do it? If they're prepared to wear the obvious risks and outlay, who's to say they shouldn't have the right to do so, and be free from criticism, no matter how wrong NTs may think plastic surgery is?

[Antares]

However I am also aware there are many women (and men even) who define themselves in terms exclusively or primarily of physical appearance, and their self-esteem and sense of self is dependent upon 'looking good', or 'looking young' or whatever. For this group of people (and despite the risks and financial outlay that has been talked about), plastic surgery may be the only way they can retain a strong self-image.

That's where I find their depth of character lacking. They may be good people, but their qualities are what I find beautiful, not their looks. Ok. Maybe it counts a bit too. So what? Having a good personality makes up for it. I guess I can't impose this belief on anyone and wouldn't dream of trying. Who am I to say they're shallow? Maybe they think the same of me.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I'm interested in the question of plastic surgery. My logic takes me in this direction........if I wore makeup to make myself look more attractive would this be shallow? If I lose weight, not to become more healthy, but to look better would this be shallow? If I buy a new bra so my breasts don't look as saggy would this be shallow?

Just puttin it out there (not the breasts).

[rwyatt365]

However I am also aware there are many women (and men even) who define themselves in terms exclusively or primarily of physical appearance, and their self-esteem and sense of self is dependent upon 'looking good', or 'looking young' or whatever. For this group of people (and despite the risks and financial outlay that has been talked about), plastic surgery may be the only way they can retain a strong self-image.

Ideally, they need to develop deeper concepts of what and who they are as people, but in many cases this can't or won't happen. Can it be right then to say to these people that "plastic surgery is wrong" and they shouldn't do it? If they're prepared to wear the obvious risks and outlay, who's to say they shouldn't have the right to do so, and be free from criticism, no matter how wrong NTs may think plastic surgery is?
I would not say that plastic surgery is wrong. I would simply question the motivation of someone electing to do that purely to support their self-image. My question would be, "How long can you fight against the effects of time and ageing, and at what cost (financially, physically and emotionally - when there is nowhere else to nip/tick)?" Plastic suregery is not forever, but a damaged psyche can last a lifetime. Better (in my mind) to apply effort to the area that will provide a lasting return (elevating one's self-image), than one that will decay with time (a nose job).

That's where I find their depth of character lacking. They may be good people, but their qualities are what I find beautiful, not their looks. Ok. Maybe it counts a bit too. So what? Having a good personality makes up for it. I guess I can't impose this belief on anyone and wouldn't dream of trying. Who am I to say they're shallow? Maybe they think the same of me.
My mother used to say to me, "Looks are what opens the door, it's what you have to offer that get you in and keeps you there." (hmmm, was she trying to say that I was an ugly child? :scared: ).

Yes, that outward appearance does count for something *sigh*, but you can chrome plate a donkey but inside it's still an ass. (Am I full of colloquialisms, or what?!! DON'T ANSWER!)

[Lucid]

I don't feel strongly about plastic surgery. I wouldn't have it done personally, and I agree that those women could have made a huge difference in the way they looked with makeup, clothes, hairstyles and some freaking confidence.

However, I'm not fat and I'm relatively attractive (in my opinion at least :)), so it's probably easy for me to say, "no, I'd never have plastic surgery!"

If people think they want it, well more power to them I guess... I just probably wouldn't respect them as much, unless they were physically deformed to start with or something like that. I have a few friends who have breast implants and the like and I don't understand it. They were fine before.

[Colette]

However, I'm not fat and I'm relatively attractive (in my opinion at least :)), so it's probably easy for me to say, "no, I'd never have plastic surgery!"

Yeah this is sort of where I'm coming on the issue too, I think. I can't meaningfully put myself in the shoes of a woman who has freakish or ugly features (according to commonly accepted norms), or for whom the ravages of aging have taken their toll in an unexpected or premature way.

Unfortunately I also agree with rwyatt, to the extent that for some women (and men too perhaps) plastic surgery seems almost to become a 'hobby', or 'addiction' even, and a convenient way of deflecting attention away from deeper underlying issues and problems the person has with their self-image and general self-confidence in life. Trite as it sounds, the media and Hollywood encourage this kind of obsession with appearance, as well as setting or attempting to set the appearance standard to which all 'right-thinking' women are expected to aspire.

There is nothing about the fashion or entertainment world which encourages uniqueness, diversity, or a non-traditional concept of 'beauty' as anything more than skin-deep.

[sriv]

I always believed there is something fundamentally wrong with plastic surgery and until two months ago I could not find the time to think about it.

People that desire plastic surgery but are not extremely disfigured or burned are in it for purely selfish desires. If it is liposuction, they do not want to spend the time improving their shape. Any other case, they are disguising themselves. They are creating an illusion of someone they are not but wish they were. It reflects inner insecurity, weak self-esteem, and cowardice.

In the case of a partner suggesting someone to get plastic surgery, then they are manipulative. The partner should accept the figure and internal beuty. Internal beuty is what actually matters and what first impressions should be based on.

[ElstonGunn]

I never hear anybody say that they think plastic surgery is great. But maybe that's just because I don't live in southern California (calm down, it's called a "joke"). On the other hand, obviously, somebody is somehow in favor of it, or else we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The thing I really don't understand is the idea that cosmetic surgery is bad, unless you were disfigured in an accident, in which case, it might be okay. That confuses me. How can it be okay to fix the problem of ugliness when it happened to you in an accident (which might even have been your own fault), but wrong to fix it if it was the result of genetics (in which you had no influence at all)? Don't tell me you've never seen a naturally ugly person. (I mean physically. I'm sure they have great personalities and they're really funny and nice and all that.)

It seems to me (and as always, there's a decent chance that I'm wrong) that asking "What do you think of plastic surgery" is very similar to asking "What do you think of child abuse?" A bunch of people partake in either of these activities, but they won't admit it because society holds a negative opinion of these things-- and who wants to get yelled at by society?

I'm not saying that a fear of social stigma is the only-- or even a major-- reason that people avoid both of these activities. Most people seem to be morally opposed to both of them. What I mean is that the relatively small group of people who do partake in either activity tend to realize that it's frowned upon in general, so they don't admit it.

And I'm also not accusing anybody here of being a child abuser with fake boobs.

[PortInStorm]

I don't think they should have to give their money to someone else. When you make money, it should be spent to your liking. If that liking happens to be helping the poor, then it is ok, but you should never feel obligated to help another person and acting out of obligation is never just, because it means that you aren't really helping them because you want to, but because you have to.

Off-topic, but I hate comments like that.
Well ya, giving should be voluntary, I guess that's why I said "What about..." as in, give it consideration.

As to "one's own money should be spent on what they like", it's a difference in worldviews between us, that's all.





2ndtimestudent added to this post, 5 minutes and 24 seconds later...

Well I'm sort of in two minds on this issue. Intuitively, my NT-ness induces me to agree with the views of everyone else on this thread.

However I am also aware there are many women (and men even) who define themselves in terms exclusively or primarily of physical appearance, and their self-esteem and sense of self is dependent upon 'looking good', or 'looking young' or whatever. For this group of people (and despite the risks and financial outlay that has been talked about), plastic surgery may be the only way they can retain a strong self-image.

Ideally, they need to develop deeper concepts of what and who they are as people, but in many cases this can't or won't happen. Can it be right then to say to these people that "plastic surgery is wrong" and they shouldn't do it? If they're prepared to wear the obvious risks and outlay, who's to say they shouldn't have the right to do so, and be free from criticism, no matter how wrong NTs may think plastic surgery is?
I don't think anyone's saying they shouldn't have a right to do it, and I agree with the fact that for some, that's the only way they can feel good and they're too lazy to develop some other foundation of self-esteem.

However, I'm pretty adamant that people never have a right to be free from criticism. Especially these swans- they put themselves out there willingly and get a lot of stuff in return. Is it right to criticize? Maybe not, but it's not a right to be free from it.





2ndtimestudent added to this post, 7 minutes and 3 seconds later...

I'm interested in the question of plastic surgery. My logic takes me in this direction........if I wore makeup to make myself look more attractive would this be shallow? If I lose weight, not to become more healthy, but to look better would this be shallow? If I buy a new bra so my breasts don't look as saggy would this be shallow?

Just puttin it out there (not the breasts).
What's the health cost of makeup vs. surgery? What's the cost differential? I know, where do you draw the line? But those are factors I'd consider, and it's about balance, and points along the same continuum.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

If we are going to talk about the morality of cosmetic surgery, then let's just say that the individual getting the surgery is wealthy enough to do so. If we concede that point in order to get past the issues of money (which I agree....are issues), what is left is the question of vanity in the forms of makeup, weight loss, clothing, jewelry, hair dye and styles, surgery, etc.

[Homini Lupus]

The body is part of myself and I must administrate it.

Given that, I disagree with most forms of that surgery, just because I think it's not leading anyway.

I am a man so I value the aesthetics of a beautiful woman, that's just part of my being a male and I have no reason to deny it. But most of the times a healty body is more beautiful than a surgically enhanced body. Caring your body that way also teaches you an important thing: no pain, no gain.

This is why I appreciate women who have the ability of being beautiful and charming: they worked for it so they deserve more attention than the dull looking ones. If it comes out that the well cared body is just a shell for an empty mind, i can always get away.

About those using that kind of surgery, I think it's more a kind of adverse selection that makes them unattractive: if you go under the knife you are probably too focused on just one espect of your appearance; knowing that, when I see your "plastic" body, I think you are one of those empty person (even if you aren't). It's the same logic than that of second hand cars.

[JTG]

Unfortunately I also agree with rwyatt, to the extent that for some women (and men too perhaps) plastic surgery seems almost to become a 'hobby', or 'addiction' even, and a convenient way of deflecting attention away from deeper underlying issues and problems the person has with their self-image and general self-confidence in life.

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[Colette]

Well clearly this woman has gone under the knife (probably more than once). The tight cheekbones and 'nose job' are a dead giveaway here. Not a look I like at all; and I wouldn't be surprised if she's one of those people who can hardly smile anymore..

[Lucid]

^ Is that Joan Rivers??

[Colette]

^ Is that Joan Rivers??

Yes the photo was tagged as 'Joan Rivers'.

[thod]

If I could get more sex with more beautiful women then I could see spending on cosmetic surgery as an investment. You either spend it on buying her dinner or on being a pretty boy. Trouble is women don't care that much what you look like so long as you fall within the normal range.

I see some real hideous women walking around. They have all sorts of facial disfigurements that could be lasered off in 15 mins. So it costs a small sum of cash, its better than having small children hide when you walk past. Warts on the end of your nose are NOT attractive to men.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I think Joan Rivers looks beautiful in this particular photo, whether or not she has had surgery.

Wouldn't it be great if all those pot-bellied, gross looking guys got plastic surgery? I mean really........what woman wants to look at that?