How do you know if you're insane?

[qwerty]

Ok so I was thinking, there is the old catch 22 that if you think you're crazy then you're actually not. And visa versa if you think you're not insane; but you really are then is it possible to know, and because you're crazy you don't believe it when people tell you that you have a problem.

So in that case is it possible to know you're insane? What makes someone insane?

So then for all the budding psychologists is insanity linked closely with paranoia?

[biased]

I've been "insane" before as in having had to been institutionalized.

I genuinely was convinced that I was correct and I had rationalized it out using logic. It was essentially a degree of ambition so great in combination with a complete lack of adherence to societies rules (wearing clothes and not causing disturbances late at night/early morning) that prompted be to go out and attempt to spread some idealistic message about how everything really works.

Let me just say infatuation, skydiving, lingering after effects of DMT (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) and a degree of ambition so strong that nothing could stop me lead to the realization that I could make a substantial change because of my abillity to communicate to both extremes on a spectrum (conservative and liberal) in a manner that made sense to them.

Ask yourself this. What IS insanity? Is it how the DSM-IV defines it? I was in this "insanity" for a little over a month and than I snapped back to reality. I believe I worked through it myself in that state of mind in combination with psychotropic drugs which allowed me to calm myself temporarily. My experience was extremely atypical, as they described it, my "drug-induced psychosis" is supposed to last at max 2 weeks. I was first diagnosed as schizophrenia than bipolar and finally "temporary psychosis". Psychology ::)

I regret of none of it at all. In fact it's one of the greatest learning experiences I've ever had.

[oh?]

I'm pretty certain that if you mean it terms of physical malfunction of the brain, such as schizophrenia, that it's sometimes pretty apparent to the person (eventually) that what their seeing isn't there. I had a friend who was a medicated schizophrenic and he used to tell stories all the time about being totally freaked out over the things he'd see, and the voices he'd hear; pretty aware that Jesus wasn't really asking him to pick up hookers and his vomit wasn't really attacking his face.

While some people probably experience it with little understanding (I'd mention that lady that claimed God told her to leave her Son at Disneyland as an example). Most of the time, I doubt these people would be likely to understand their situation unless treated medically. Simple rationalization seems like it would just make things worse … imagine being 100 percent certain that what your experiencing is real, only to be taken aside and told with convincing evidence that no, it is in fact all in your head. Seems like it would drive the insanity further.

But:

If you're talking about just general mental status without obvious 'physical' cause, I.E. irrational behavior/viewpoint. I don't exactly believe in insanity in these terms. I think in a lot of ways insanity is what we've devised to section off the people that 'don't make sense' to us in terms of society.


But then, maybe I'm just insane.

[mind_wander]

Trust me you don't want to end up like Cho Seung-Hui [VA tech shooter]. But, I always wondered what is his Myer's brigg personality type. Could someone take an educated guess, what is his personality type?


I wonder, does anyone can help me out which personality trait he fell in.

[Rei]

Trust me you don't want to end up like Cho Seung-Hui [VA tech shooter]. But, I always wondered what is his Myer's brigg personality type. Could someone take an educated guess, what is his personality type?


I wonder, does anyone can help me out which personality trait he fell in.

I'm pretty sure he'd be an I_TJ.
And it's VT, not VA...

[mind_wander]

my bad, yeah that was my guess too IN_J. Very smart guy, sux to be the silent guy in the corner. The first thing came to mind was this. What is the true feelings of being isolated; been the done that. I know he wanted to be accepted, asked the questions "Where do I fit into society?" Everyone has asked this question, but he concluded that I don't fit in society,but an outcast. The thing he missed was that he is a very unique individual without knowing it. I am not bowing down to him as a hero, but he just forgot some of the variable to stay sane.

[iamnotspock]

Virginia Tech, (VT), is in VA (Virginia). Confusing, eh?

I'd guess Cho was an INTJ as well. Same for the Unabomber. Basically, when INTJ's go bad, we go bad in a big way ;-))

But were either insane? Well, insane is a legal term, not a medical term. They were certainly emotionally disturbed. But guided by hallucinations or delusions like a schizophrenic? And unable to tell right from wrong? I don't think so.

Rather, they seemed to me to be driven by an intense anger to seek revenge on a society from which they were extremely alienated. They wanted to prove to this society that they were more powerful than they appeared.

To me, that suggests they remained rational -- not insane -- but cracked along the emotional fault-line, a known weakness for INTJ's. Unable to connect to others, they replaced empathy with anger, and told themselves they did not need others, because they were superior.

Personally, when I think of Cho, unable to speak out loud without being mocked by others, yet far more intellectually capable than many, at least based on his test scores, I feel real compassion. He suffered for many many years in extreme isolation. It's not surprising he cracked. He became a monster, and ironically he proved the sheeple right, but it's just too easy to see how he ended up there. He almost ended up playing the role that society created for him, of the bitter outcast, the crazy loner, the shooter dude. That strikes me as more social dynamics than insanity.

[vulcan]

You're insane as soon as you stop questioning your sanity.

[chocky]

I question my sanity a lot.

There are just so many ways to define insanity, it surely boils down to by whose standards? We really can't answer the opening question without agreeing on a definition, and that deserves a thread of it's own.

But in the spirit of what has already been discussed, I would like to mention my experience of what I believe qualifies as objectifiable insanity:

I was once very close to someone diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic. He tore his family apart with his denial and refusal to medicate. But his actions weren't a conscious choice. It was his disease. He simply had absolutely no insight into his condition. Zilch. He could not accept that he was ill, even if he wanted to. He could neither reflect upon his actions nor learn from them, nor consequently modify his behaviour.

Not all cases of schizophrenia are so intractable, but in this case denial of insanity was the mark of insanity.

[qwerty]

ok the question was left open because I'm not fully aware of all of the various types of mental health issues. But I guess I was referring to Psychosis : the loss of contact with reality more to do with delusional beliefs (rather than hallucination's)

So I take extreme paranoia as one of these delusional beliefs - If a person keeps the possibility of something that is far fetched for too long and attach an emotional trigger to the possibility then given enough time that person should begin to believe it. So we look at the example of someone who believes in an ideal for their entire life and through out their time the ideal stands even in the wake of those who attempt to tell the person they are wrong.

Now that ideal can be anything - the idea that murder is not a crime - the idea that we don't actually exist etc. etc...

So in this example the paranoid person is delusional and rejects the criticisms that they are wrong and because of the paranoia they are sure the other person is trying to fool them.

So if that's the case, where a person won't accept the word of the people around them, are they insane or are the people around them insane?

So maybe the point is this: if you are mildly insane you question your sanity. And if you are completely insane you don't question yourself at all.
So maybe we're all alittle insane and it's just a matter of not being fully insane that makes us 'normal'

[chocky]

I think the sanity continuum is a reasonable construct.

[mind_wander]

Virginia Tech, (VT), is in VA (Virginia). Confusing, eh?

I'd guess Cho was an INTJ as well. Same for the Unabomber. Basically, when INTJ's go bad, we go bad in a big way ;-))

Personally, when I think of Cho, unable to speak out loud without being mocked by others, yet far more intellectually capable than many, at least based on his test scores, I feel real compassion. He suffered for many many years in extreme isolation. It's not surprising he cracked. He became a monster, and ironically he proved the sheeple right, but it's just too easy to see how he ended up there. He almost ended up playing the role that society created for him, of the bitter outcast, the crazy loner, the shooter dude. That strikes me as more social dynamics than insanity.

Great, I thought that I'm the only one was thinking of the same exact thing. Its a very sad chapter, very sad. But, wished he find the right directions to go. With some of these cases, it does give INTJ's a bad rap. Sadness :'(

[Kathryn]

I question my sanity a lot.

I was once very close to someone diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic. He tore his family apart with his denial and refusal to medicate. But his actions weren't a conscious choice. It was his disease. He simply had absolutely no insight into his condition. Zilch. He could not accept that he was ill, even if he wanted to. He could neither reflect upon his actions nor learn from them, nor consequently modify his behaviour.



My father (INTJ also) was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia when I was 12 and he was 39. He also refused to be treated and told anyone who suggested it that they were crazy. We could see the changes in him, which were subtle at first because they appeared to be amplifications in his personality -- as opposed to personality *changes*. Aside from losing the essense of who he was, the amplification ultimately caused his fine qualities to turn into anti-social ones. His great sense of logic ended up sounding like babble. His sense of humor became ugly and mean. Confidence turned to grandiose behaviour. Long story short, my mother ended up having to get a restraining order to force him to leave our home -- along with his "arsenal" of firearms (he was a weapons technician in the military and an incredible marksman to boot). He stalked us for quite awhile; my mom eventually left town with her now-husband and my sister and I moved on to create our own lives. I've already told my husband to have me committed if he believes I'm displaying outlandish behaviour. We don't dwell on it, but I think it's a good idea to be prepared for the possibility.

[mind_wander]

I I've already told my husband to have me committed if he believes I'm displaying outlandish behaviour. We don't dwell on it, but I think it's a good idea to be prepared for the possibility.
Lol, well at least that saved the paper work; although the medical paper work is complicated. j/k

[thegnat]

You see dead people.

That's when you know. Seriously.

[mind_wander]

Nope, when "God" show you the middle finger. Then, I will definitely go insane for sure, so I'm a Christian, God what did I do wrong?

[Jack]

I question my sanity a lot.


Questioning your own INsanity is the key to understanding if you're sane, you need to question why there is a change, and if you're mentally capable of dealing with it. Everyone conceptualizes at some point in their lives that they might be losing it, I blame the cut throat, and the oppression obsessed society for this.

I once attended a "school" with other students that were speculated for having some sort of mental health issue,(OCD, PTS, ADD to name a few), they tried to illustrate it as... 'Gifted Learning."....WTF?.. It was an out-patient style education system in our local hospitals psychiatric ward, I was able to go home to sleep and be with my family, but during the day I was "committed."

During schooling there was also frequent visits from pathologists and psychiatrists, it was very frustrating for me to under go numerous psychological testings, and still try to maintain a normal education, and a normal teenage life outside the hospital, I lost many friends due to this, s****y, wrongful understanding of my assumed problem.
After being there for the first half of my grade 9 school year, they said my diagnosis was undefined, so in other words they had no idea whether I was sane or not.

Needless to say, I was confused and was unsure of what was wrong with me

If I am insane, would it be sane to conclude it's because they couldn't answer my question properly? I think so!

[The Rose]

You don't.


If you're worried that you're insane, you're not.

[Iannus Quirinus]

Yeah, I've been asking myself the same question(s), especially with my fathers recent mental problems (mostly gone now) and having had a generally unstable living enviroment to say the least.

When I've seen him like that, I've come to the conclusion that I was/am much sane, or at least saner than he was then.
And beeing "insane", he didn't notice it, better said, he was preoccupied with his thoughts too much to notice it all slipped away.

So yeah, if you're asking yourself if you're sane or not, you're sane most of the time.

[Nomad]

I have a friend who is a psychologist and she tells me there is no medical definition of "normal". I've heard also the the DSM-IV does not define normal. I agree fully that mental illness does exist, and it should be treated, however my friend opined that much of what comes across as mental illness under current definitions, might simply be normal mechanisms kicking in to try to deal with stressors that we were simply not designed for. Road rage is on a steep rise in the US, and it seems it might be linked to the fact that Americans are the most sleep deprived people in the world. All stress is cumulative, and eventually something has to give. It's an interesting idea.

-Nomad

[Jennywocky]

Basically if you can:
- function autonomously in society
- contribute to others / be productive
- are capable of continual growth over the years

then you are probably "normal" -- even if you have some issues.

I consider a true psychological illness to be something that prevents at least one of the above things from occurring.

We seem to be over-diagnosing "illness" far too much nowadays. Or at least rendering the term "illness" useless to distinguish anything.

[patobrocks]

So maybe the point is this: if you are mildly insane you question your sanity. And if you are completely insane you don't question yourself at all.

Yes, the only people that don't question their sanity are the truly insane or the stupid, although most crazy people havea bove normal intelligence. I know. I take great comfort from not questioning my sanity anymore, because i am crazy, which gives me a little control over it.

But for the last year I have been takong pharmaceutical Omega3 fish oil, and if it keeps working, then I may never have to go back to the nut house. For many years i tried to deny my manic-depression. Everybody else knew it, but me. Now, most people think that I am sane, weird and peculiar, but sane.

But bipolars can go years and seem normal, or almpost normal, and then one day go to an extreme, and then bounce to the other pole. So, I may be going through one of my naturally stable phases. This is why I am taking 19 credits this semster, and 19 next semester, so I can graduate, while I am normal. It will only be 12 years for a BA, and I am 54.

[anara]

well if you truly are insane, you many never know. but i have a legally insane cousin and some symptoms i could pro-offer that he displayed over the course of his 21 years of life are: being arrested constantly for unaggressive but unacceptable offenses, calling the ambulance on himself a lot, hypochondria, lack of emotions and emotional depth, cannot GIVE in a convo only takes, is unaware of himself but at the same time COMPLETELY aware and aware ONLY of himself, obsessed with his own thoughts, unusual eating habits (never eating), strange professions ("i never go to the bathroom"), drug abuse, trouble keeping a job, no interest in their future or those they should love (family, old friends)

[Cookabara]

This is easy, you just ask your second self :)

[Antares]

Interesting question. So it is quite impossible to know that you're insane, and the only way you would get even a hint of it is when others tell you, but you would never believe them.

I've always questioned my sanity, as described in my 'Accepting Oneself' thread. I guess, up to this point, I needn't worry. :scared: I might stop questioning my sanity after this. Oh nos!

[elsdfr]

You don't.


If you're worried that you're insane, you're not.

Bingo!

[Femme de Homme INTJ]

Ah, my favorite topic! Insanity!

Well, I have heard the definition of insanity a million times: "When you keep trying the same thing over and over, expecting different results."

The definition, however, doesn't seem broad enough, like it's only dealing with one type of insanity.

There was that guy (the "Beautiful Mind" guy) who rationalised himself out of insanity, which seems contrary to that old proverb, "If you think you're insane, you probably aren't." He must have been INTP. Or J. (But I vote P b/c I don't want you guys to score another point).

I also know other people who knew they were insane when they were insane. This makes me wonder if I AM insane when I suspect I am. And I think I am, but that puts me one step ahead of my insanity. So there, insanity! I know you're there! You can't fool me!


On another note, I like this question, "Why is it that when someone talks to God it's called prayer but when God answers it's called insanity?" Some of the things the prophets did in the Bible seemed pretty bizarre, yes. However, they did all make sense in the context of their messages. And they were according to the scriptures... Opposed to insanity where Jesus comes down and tells you that Satan needs a sperm donor and meanwhile, leave your kids at Disneyland or something. So, we are responsible to gage what we think God says, according to reality.

[Provoker]

I characterize insanity as one who's divorced from their own mind. For example, when s-types turn to the Bible or any textbook as the ultimate source of authority they lose the ability to judge things for themselves. Once you become divorced from your own judgement, and consider it inferior to that of a book, you are stripped of all your defenses and your mind is no longer your friend. Once your mind is no longer your friend you are on a slippery path to insanity. Terrorists are a perfect example as they will sacrifice themselves for an idea embedded in a textbook. One might make the argument that s-types represent wide-spread insanity.

I'm not certain one can over know forsure whether or not they're insane. In many ways we are immune to ourselves, it's hard to be objective with respect to the self and make that kind of diagnosis.

[elsdfr]

I guess it what kind of insanity they are suffering. Some insane people are constantly told they are insane so when they are lucid they will probably agree. But if they are in the midst of an episode getting them to admit it isn't going to happen.

What bothers me is who or how they decide. There are many high functioning insane people in society I guess. The ones that are committed are usually because they are deemed to be dangerous to society. Provided you can see and rationalise this danger I think you're fine.

[INTJgal]

I have a friend who is a psychologist and she tells me there is no medical definition of "normal". I've heard also the the DSM-IV does not define normal. I agree fully that mental illness does exist, and it should be treated, however my friend opined that much of what comes across as mental illness under current definitions, might simply be normal mechanisms kicking in to try to deal with stressors that we were simply not designed for. Road rage is on a steep rise in the US, and it seems it might be linked to the fact that Americans are the most sleep deprived people in the world. All stress is cumulative, and eventually something has to give. It's an interesting idea.

-Nomad

I just finished a test on this about 12 minutes ago:) From Seligman's Abnormal Psychology Text 4th Edition p. 20-24

No such thing as "abnormal" b/c there's no trait that's always/never there in "normal" people and the opposite in "abnormal".

Things to look for:

1. Suffering (eg: depressed person hurts. Not a necessary condition of abnormality.)
2. Maladaptiveness (interferes with life; ability to achieve goals). THe more harmful the dysfunction, the clearer the abnormality.
3. Irrationality (some behavior seems to have no rational meaning e.g. an earnest and cooperative patient who also "exhibited an irresistable tendency to sort objects on the desk and on the experimenter's person, as well as parts of the room, things he pulled from his pockets, and even the experimenter himself, whom the patient recommended be remade of wood and cut into blocks")
4. Unpredictability & loss of control ("Don, the mild-mannered exec, adores his wife on Monday, but pummels her brutally on Tuesday")
5. Rareness & Unconventionality (not universal nor necessarily abnormal, but another thing to think about)
6. Observer Discomfort (self-explanatory)
7. Violation of Standards (behavior assessed against moral standards and idealized norms that are "believed to characterize all right-thinking and right-acting people"... regardless of the fact that often they are not universally found in modern society)





INTJgal added to this post, 4 minutes and 3 seconds later...

I characterize insanity as one who's divorced from their own mind. For example, when s-types turn to the Bible or any textbook as the ultimate source of authority they lose the ability to judge things for themselves. Once you become divorced from your own judgement, and consider it inferior to that of a book, you are stripped of all your defenses and your mind is no longer your friend. Once your mind is no longer your friend you are on a slippery path to insanity. Terrorists are a perfect example as they will sacrifice themselves for an idea embedded in a textbook. One might make the argument that s-types represent wide-spread insanity.

I'm not certain one can over know forsure whether or not they're insane. In many ways we are immune to ourselves, it's hard to be objective with respect to the self and make that kind of diagnosis.

a little overdramatic, eh?

on a separate note, re: those who are ultra-religious...
that's not insane, that's closed-minded. which CAN lead to being insane. or just a very dull, lifeless person.

[JTG]

I recently came to the realization that i meet several criteria for schizophrenia. I wonder if i really have the disorder or if it's just eccentricities in my personality that cause some of the symptoms. Either way, i spend most of my time alone, so in the words of Nirvana:

I'm so happy
Because today i found my friends
They're in my head

[aok]

I'm responding to the initial thread. According to that theory, which I have questioned myself, it seems the most reliable way to maintain sanity is to maintain that you are crazy. Therefore, no one can claim that you are insane.

[AgentofGaming]

Things to look for:

1. Suffering (eg: depressed person hurts. Not a necessary condition of abnormality.)
2. Maladaptiveness (interferes with life; ability to achieve goals). THe more harmful the dysfunction, the clearer the abnormality.
3. Irrationality (some behavior seems to have no rational meaning e.g. an earnest and cooperative patient who also "exhibited an irresistable tendency to sort objects on the desk and on the experimenter's person, as well as parts of the room, things he pulled from his pockets, and even the experimenter himself, whom the patient recommended be remade of wood and cut into blocks")
4. Unpredictability & loss of control ("Don, the mild-mannered exec, adores his wife on Monday, but pummels her brutally on Tuesday")
5. Rareness & Unconventionality (not universal nor necessarily abnormal, but another thing to think about)
6. Observer Discomfort (self-explanatory)
7. Violation of Standards (behavior assessed against moral standards and idealized norms that are "believed to characterize all right-thinking and right-acting people"... regardless of the fact that often they are not universally found in modern society)

#2 is rather strong for me.
My parents/grandparents have repetitively provoked me on that one.
It's kind of ironic my response was, "If I'm so socially inept, why don't you get me a psychiatrist".
I don't like having this issue but I sort of accepted it is there already.
What should one do?...

[Provoker]

a little overdramatic, eh?

on a separate note, re: those who are ultra-religious...
that's not insane, that's closed-minded. which CAN lead to being insane. or just a very dull, lifeless person.

I disagree. It's neither closed nor open minded. It's often unminded; it's herd.

[pavman]

...This makes me wonder if I AM insane when I suspect I am. And I think I am, but that puts me one step ahead of my insanity. So there, insanity! I know you're there! You can't fool me!
Kick a$$ awesome!

...when s-types turn to the Bible or any textbook as the ultimate source of authority...
Next time ask them where in the Bible it says the Bible is the ultimate source of authority...

on a separate note, re: those who are ultra-religious...that's not insane, that's closed-minded. which CAN lead to being insane. or just a very dull, lifeless person.
Hmm, I guess it depends on your definition of ultra-religious. Most religious people are fairly open-minded, they just adhere to a set of moral rules that define what is acceptable, and unacceptable, behavior. I find the most close-minded folks to be the ones who say they're open-minded...especially in the realm of Christianity. Usually there's some underlying reason why they've rejected it that has nothing to do with their own analysis of the topic at hand. But yes, there are *some* religious folks who are definitely loony.

My father was insane. Yep, I can admit it. I didn't really know him...however, he used to do crazy things...like throw himself from moving cars. This was before the age of medication to combat the illness. He eventually ended his life at the business end of my grandfather's shotgun (grandfather on my mother's side).

So I ask myself if I'm insane a lot. So far I've concluded that I'm not; however, I've often said I dance along that line that separates genius from insanity. Ironically, because I've known about this my whole life, I don't take myself too seriously as a way to combat what I perceived to be the problem with him, even if I never knew him. Perhaps I am insane. C'est la vie.

Two really good movies to "feel" what insanity is like are The Assassination of Richard Nixon and, recently, He Was a Quiet Man. OMG were those great acting jobs! You really do "feel" the insanity when you put yourself into the protagonist's position.

[Tokey41]

Insane people don't know they are insane, it's as simple as that. There are many reasons why it's not possible but the main one being that we can (in theory and this happens quite a bit with insane people) question everything but our mind/thoughts themselves.

[yondyr]

I've noticed that many schizophrenics tend to have a happy hallucinogenic mind, but a neglected body while doing without medication, and they're a walking victim. When on meds, they're brought down to a glazed dull existence that they loathe, so go off the meds to bring back 'colour' into their lives.