INTJs and ENFPs

[gyrogenerian]

Hi all,

It has been observed that INTJs and ENFPs often wind up together as a natural pair. I am an ENFP who is married to an INTJ, but we have, um, issues. I am writing in hopes that some of you INTJs can give me some insight into how to improve our relationship.

The thing that is driving me crazy is that I love to be asked what I am thinking, and he NEVER asks me what I'm thinking. I have explained to him, as unemotionally as I could, that asking me what I think is important to me, it is my primary love language. Still, never.

A companion issue is that he doesn't tell me what he is thinking until it is so obvious to him that he wonders why it isn't obvious to me too. I can understand it when he explains it, it's just that I can imagine a great many possibilities and can't predict which are the ones he will have thought were the most logical. So I need to ask. When he answers, he does so in a tone of voice that expresses utter disbelief that I should need to ask. I have tried to explain to him that that tone of voice is hurtful to me, so he tries to tone it down, but what he does is...use the same tone of voice more quietly.

Likewise, I need to hear every so often some kind of affirmation that indicates he approves of me in some way. He doesn't have to agree, and he doesn't even have to say it in a theatrical or heartfelt way; a mechanical statement from a few favorites is sufficient to register on my love meter. This is all the more important to me when he disagrees, to help overcome the hurtfulness of his tone of voice.

Tonight's incident illustrates the point. He was engrossed in a cool theory, but I had something time-sensitive that I wanted to talk about. I waited until it looked like he was winding down in his thinking, and then I raised the subject. It was something he did not agree with me on, and after he stated his views...in the quiet version of the disbelieving tone of voice... he pulled the covers up and closed his eyes, without ever asking me what I thought! So I tried to be assertive and asked for an affirmation. He didn't answer, so I thought maybe he'd already fallen asleep, or that he hadn't heard me, so I asked "did I say that loud enough? or did you fall asleep?" He grunted, and pulled the covers up over his head! Now he is sound asleep.

I'm sure someone will say "well he was just tired." That might be an explanation one time, but this is a pattern. And even then, how rude is that? To dismiss your loved one's concerns without any acknowledgment just because you're tired? This was something very important to me, and he knew it. At least he could say, "I'm tired, can we talk about it in the morning?"

I can hardly stand it. If my value system for marriage wasn't "failure is not an option," I would be so outta here right now. Is there an INTJ out there who can give me some understanding of what is going on here?





gyrogenerian added to this post, 100 minutes and 29 seconds later...

On second thought, I just want to point out that although I was a bit distraught when I first wrote this post, I am not an emotional wreck. I really do just want an objective and logical explanation, some insight into how I can help him understand my needs. I know that he does love me, and although he may have his issues, I strongly suspect that most of the problem relates to the difference between enfp's and intj's. I understand the enfp part well enough; it's the intj stuff I'm looking for comments on.

Thanks.

[Jgib5328]

I don't know if all INTJs are like this, but I tend to not be interested in other people's thoughts or feelings and I hate sharing my own. However, if someone special wanted that, I'd do that for them.

Maybe you should just try sharing your thoughts with him anyways and try to get him to share with you and maybe you should reiterate the importance of that.

[Uytuun]

Likewise, I need to hear every so often some kind of affirmation that indicates he approves of me in some way.

This is hard for us since it doesn't always occur to us that people might need affirmation or approval, but it is really not so hard to work on. And it tends to be greatly appreciated.

The thing that is driving me crazy is that I love to be asked what I am thinking

As in your opinion?

I don't often ask about people's opinion (e.g. shopping, decisions that pertain to me only), but when it's about something that has to do with the other person as well then I think it is only normal that both opinions are heard. Clearly, when you're asked about your opinion, you enter in a dialogue and just pulling the covers up is not the best option.

Why were you asking about his opinon though? Because you really wanted to know or just so he could confirm your opinion? I hate it when people ask me about my opinion, but then get all defensive and try to coax me into stating that yes, their opinion is better or at least equally valid. I don't know if this is something ENFPs do, though.

[mind_wander]

Hi,
Well I see the issue with the tone of voice. When, I speak out loud, its like him, mono-low tone, hardly can be heard. If forceful, it does turned the samething expect its louder. When its too loud, it means "I get it!" or "Stopped it or I am angry!" Low monotone means, "I know exactly know what you meant, do you got anymore to add?" or "Just aknowledgement." I hope this helps, most INTJs does not have that emotional tone of voice; like emotionless. So, I understand why? it frustrates you. Is he pissed off or not pissed off? or agree or disagree? I hope this makes logical sense.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I am an INTJ female and I have a ESFJ male partner. I would not act the way your husband is acting toward my partner. It seems insensitive, uncaring, and egotistical to me. It may be more about male/female stuff than INTJness.

[Zilal]

I love to be asked questions too! Most of what you've described sounds like bad communication skills on his part rather than anything particular to INTJ-ness.

I might be far off the mark in my interpretation of your situation, but if you've already expressed to him how important certain things are to you and he still doesn't see any need to do them, he might need the importance to be brought home some other way... say, by an official-sounding trained professional. Some people... apparently, mostly men... just never learned to behave in an appropriate give-and-take manner for a relationship. They literally don't understand that sacrifice, compromise, adjusting one's own behavior etc. are essential for lasting relationships. And they're often not likely to appreciate it until their marriage is in danger and they have a professional telling them, "No, seriously, look at what you're doing to your wife. You're going to lose her. You need to change."

Things don't have to get to that point with you. But I would try some harder knocks to try to get him to see what his behavior is doing. Not like withholding attention (of any kind), nothing that would seem like punishment... but maybe be ever blunter about the effects of his behavior on you. "When I don't receive verbal affection from you, I feel lonely, I miss what we used to have, and I wonder about the future of this relationship. It hurts me very much." "When you go to sleep on me when I'm upset, I feel like I can't discuss things with you. It makes me very unhappy and very concerned for the relationship. If we can't work this out, I want to try counseling." Maybe just the suggestion of it will be a wake-up call to him.

And if you can... see if you can get him to come up with things you can do that would make him feel more secure in the relationship. My guess is that if you ask him if there's anything you're not doing that you could be doing for him, he may vigorously deny he needs anything from you. But of course it's important for him to get in the habit of asking for things too, to improve trust.

[Antares]

Tonight's incident illustrates the point. He was engrossed in a cool theory, but I had something time-sensitive that I wanted to talk about. I waited until it looked like he was winding down in his thinking, and then I raised the subject. It was something he did not agree with me on, and after he stated his views...in the quiet version of the disbelieving tone of voice... he pulled the covers up and closed his eyes, without ever asking me what I thought! So I tried to be assertive and asked for an affirmation. He didn't answer, so I thought maybe he'd already fallen asleep, or that he hadn't heard me, so I asked "did I say that loud enough? or did you fall asleep?" He grunted, and pulled the covers up over his head! Now he is sound asleep.

You raised an issue, so I assume you asked for his views. He answered it. I don't know about him, but if someone asked me a question and I answered it, I would assume the conversation over unless either party wanted to carry it on by raising further issues. If I'm talking to you and I answered your question, unless you push the issue further, I would consider you satisfied. I'm a female, so I might not represent his opinion. I don't know about all INTJ's (I'm doing my absolute best to avoid generalizing), but most I know doesn't take the 'active' role of the speaker. The INTJ's I know prefer to listen and make occasional comments. This is by no means how anyone should act (I'm not making any suggestions as to how people should act), but I'm trying my best to explain his point of view, right or wrong.

Also, by affirmation, do you mean the acknowledgement that he's heard you or agreeing with you? If the latter, then I don't think you would get the affirmation on something that he did not agree with already. Again, that's how the INTJ's I know in real life acts. I would actually be responsive though 0___o and not just ignore you.

Likewise, I need to hear every so often some kind of affirmation that indicates he approves of me in some way. He doesn't have to agree, and he doesn't even have to say it in a theatrical or heartfelt way; a mechanical statement from a few favorites is sufficient to register on my love meter. This is all the more important to me when he disagrees, to help overcome the hurtfulness of his tone of voice.

I understand. This is a complaint my mother often makes to my dad. I think this is a quality both my father and I, and perhaps your husband need to work on.

About your emotional needs, I think you need to clarify with him again if the lack of satisfaction from your husband is upsetting you, because negative emotions don't help the relationship.

[gyrogenerian]

If I'm talking to you and I answered your question, unless you push the issue further, I would consider you satisfied.This makes sense to me; that perhaps if I had more to say, he would merely have viewed it as my job to say so.

Something else that occurred to me is that when I explained to him my desire to have him ask what I'm thinking, he did try for a day or two, maybe three. But it petered out, and I'm not sure why; evidently I did not reinforce it the way he needed it reinforced. I guess I've been assuming that that explanation should have been enough for him, but that's probably unfair, given our utterly different styles.

And if you can... see if you can get him to come up with things you can do that would make him feel more secure in the relationship.LOL, that is a very intuitive guess on your part. I don't know why it seems funny to me, but it does.

My guess is that if you ask him if there's anything you're not doing that you could be doing for him, he may vigorously deny he needs anything from you.More likely he will be vigorously silent. Everything seems to get the answer "I don't know" these days. Maybe he doesn't know, or maybe he knows but doesn't feel safe enough to say. What makes an INTJ feel safe? In the past, I have tried preemptively guessing what was making him feel unsafe and giving verbal reassurance about those things. Thinking back to his response to those attempts...I think he said nothing at all, except after a while some very quiet comment, but then after hugs he would relax and talk about other things again.

In short, the question I am asking myself is how do I go about having more emotional intimacy with this man?

Is he pissed off or not pissed off? or agree or disagree?I don't think he was angry (not sure!) He disagreed. When I calmly asked him not to use that tone of voice because I was just trying to find out what he thought, he said "I guess I just thought the answer was obvious," but in the quieter version of the disbelieving tone of voice.

Why were you asking about his opinon though? Because you really wanted to know or just so he could confirm your opinion? I hate it when people ask me about my opinion, but then get all defensive and try to coax me into stating that yes, their opinion is better or at least equally valid.Well, I did have an obvious agenda, but at the same time, I did honestly want to know what he thought and why. I didn't get defensive though, and yes I'm sure of that because I was working extremely hard to control my expression of emotion. But I hear what you are saying: it's important to avoid asking in a controlling or leading way. But okay. I did have an opinion, yes. How else could I ask it? There is something I want to have happen which I can't do without his consent; how else can we enter into a dialogue and come to any consensus unless we discuss his reasons for not wanting it--AND my reasons for wanting it? That's what made me so angry, he was just dismissive. I'm hoping he was just tired, but I don't think this subject is going to get discussed again unless *I* bring it up.

I don't know if all INTJs are like this, but I tend to not be interested in other people's thoughts or feelings and I hate sharing my own. However, if someone special wanted that, I'd do that for them.Jgib, do you mind telling me if you are male or female? I have to say that I do feel he is uninterested in other people's thoughts or feelings and hates sharing his own. But I don't know if that's accurate or just my perception. It sounds like a terrible thing to say--how could you not be interested in what other people think? but I think it doesn't have the global meaning those words convey. And after all, INTJs are great thinkers, and important new frontiers are forged by that kind of thinking. My husband is definitely that way; I often think of Newton when I watch him at work. The genius is obvious. It's not that other people are not important to him, but he often doesn't seem interested in what others think. Seem being the operative word. I'm trying to be fair. I can't judge him by my standards, I have to judge him by his own.

Is being conflict aversive an INTJ trait? I know it's an ENFP trait, and I really hate that in myself but I do observe it with maddening regularity. I just didn't think it was also an INTJ trait, yet I keep seeing it in him; if anything, I think he is more that way than I am. Our arguments, which have been extremely few, take an hour for ten minutes worth of exchanges. And after all, the difficulty I have had with this is exactly the reason I am appealing to an anonymous internet board for insight.

Thanks for all your comments.

[rwyatt365]

As a clueless INTJ male (not that all INTJ males are clueless, just that I am), I will attempt to help you understand your mate. More than likely, I will only succeed in confusing you more.

Let me ask you a question; at some point in your relationship was your husband seemingly more open than he is now, does he seem to have gotten more closed-mouthed “lately”?

I think that your husband is suffering from “conversation withdrawal”. If he’s anything like me, he has tried this conversation-thing and has found himself to come up short. He’s tried to share his inner sanctum with you and is feeling like his “world” is not as lively and cool as yours is. He knows this because, when talking with you he sees that what is important is your affirmation and your thoughts – and that your relationship depends on these things.

Somewhere in his brain he has begun to associate conversation with the fulfillment of your needs (to the exclusion of his). I’m not saying that this is what is happening in actuality, or by intention. I am saying that somewhere in his mind that association has been made. Now, every time that you ask him for feedback on what you think a little bell goes off inside him and the Pavlov reaction starts; “She’s asking me about what she’s thinking again. It’s always about her needs – what about mine? She only asks me about what I’m thinking only as a segue to what she’s thinking”. So, you get the annoyed-voice and the covers pulled over his head.

When he senses that you’ve gotten pissed enough he will relent and start asking you what you are thinking. But, because it is unnatural and that damned bell keeps going off, it peters off after a few days.

If you really want to change his behavior, you have to re-program him. You have to make the bell tell him to (think and) do something else. Try this for a few days, when you know he’s engrossed in something wait until there’s a break in the action and then ask him, “What’re you doing?”, then just stop, listen, and when he’s done explaining (no matter if it was one sentence, or a dissertation) just say, “That was fascinating!” and WALK AWAY. Don’t ask for any reciprocation, just WALK AWAY. After a few day of this “conditioning” (no less than three), do the same but before walking away tell him about something that you’ve done – but DO NOT ask for a response, just supply information.

The next step is to train him to offer input to you. First, ask him about his thoughts (or project, or work, or something), then ask him, “Can you help me with…? I need your opinion.” Now is the time to spring the trap! When he gives his input, tell him what you were thinking about (whatever), and ask him “So, what do you think of that?” Now, the bell in his head will say, “She’s interested in ME! She wants to know what I think!” That’s like a $10 rock to a crack whore he can’t resist you! You are now a golden girl. As long as you can keep him “supplied” he will be putty in your hands.

Hope this helps.

[thod]

In short, the question I am asking myself is how do I go about having more emotional intimacy with this man?

You are going to have to train him.

As a rational he has spent his life suppressing emotion. He doesn't even realize he has any. Any decision made on emotions is viewed as a biased decision. There must be a rational basis for everything he says and does. You can test this yourself. The next time he states an opinion, simply ask him why he came to that conclusion, and he will recite a list of facts and correlations that lead him to that conclusion. He doesn't have to like the conclusion. When rational paints a picture of the landscape they do not paint themselves in that picture. If he is deciding the nations economic future for example, then nothing he does, nor anything he feels will make a difference. He steps outside, looks at the variables and says "this is going to happen". He realizes that simply because he feels bad about a recession then that is not going to change it. Rationals do not have preferences and they do not make decisions. The decision is made for them by the facts under consideration. Any other rational with the same data would reach the same conclusions. For it to be otherwise would mean the world is subjective. This does not fit well with the world model.

He wont ask how you feel about everything nor will he expect you to ask how he feels about it. If you say something that he does not concur with he will challenge your opinion seeking the basis for that opinion. He will likewise expect you to do the same. Conclusions are not so important to rationals. The process of reaching that conclusion is everything. It perfectly OK to wrong. Imperfect data or models leads to an incorrect conclusion. What is unforgivable is imperfect reasoning. Feelings are subjective, they cloud the vision of an objective reality that does not care about how the observer feels.

[gyrogenerian]

Okay, okay, a picture is starting to emerge here. I should focus on FACTS! Facts facts facts. That feels so right! (lol, there's my enfp emotional reasoning for you: I am not arriving at my agreement logically, but emotionally based on past experience.) Yes, I am not looking for his emotional confirmation either, though maybe I thought so and maybe I said that....but that is wrong. I just want the man to talk to me, because both of us have gotten sidetracked in other endeavors. I don't know how to engage him; I want to talk to him, and him to talk to me, but he's so unresponsive. HOWEVER, maybe the root of the problem is that neither of us quite knew how to say "let's talk about the facts", since that is not the way I'm programmed and I'm the talker of the two.

rwyatt, I think it's always been similar to this but lately I have found refuge in other relationships, and it's gotten worse because he's annoyed at that. The cure is not to abandon my other friends, it's to work harder at figuring out his needs and how we can both get our needs met in this relationship.

FYI, I just want to let you all know that I drove to his work to have a conversation with him about this. I needed something that was going to get his full attention. It worked. He was a bit shocked when I walked in, and he listened to what I had to say. I just told him I needed him to ask me what's on my mind, and after I said my piece he was quiet for a long time. Then he asked me what I thought about the issue from last night, and I told him my point of view. I asked if there was something else about that he wanted to say, and he was quiet for four full minutes. (I was sitting in front of the clock.) Finally he told me the problem, and I recognized immediately what he was talking about. My other relationships are bothering him. So I renewed what I'd said earlier, and I told him that sharing my needs with him is my way of showing respect for our relationship. There was more, but I guess I don't need to tell you guys every last detail. He was very subdued, but positive. I told him I also want to know what he is thinking, but don't know how to draw it out of him. I think there is some pain there that has nothing to do with my other relationships.

I came home feeling renewed in my commitment to making this relationship not just last, but really work for both of us. I think that his issues probably are more than just typical INTJ issues, but understanding INTJ stuff will be important for me to be able to know what to do. The point is that he is a human being and deserves to be loved with the best I have to offer, and it is also right for me to ask for my own needs to be met the way I want them to be. We both come with total commitment. And if I am trying to reach out to him and all I get is silence, well then, I just have to keep trying. My other relationships are not instead of trying, they are just a part of an enfp's active emotional life.

I guess I'm rambling a bit now, I'm feeling quite emotional. LOL. Sorry. No, not sorry! But thanks for your input.





gyrogenerian added to this post, 9 minutes and 11 seconds later...

yes, facts, that IS it. I'm sure it doesn't seem like too much of a revelation to you guys, but to me it is. His introspection does not extend to making observations like this about himself, so he would never think of saying to me, "I do better when you ask me about facts." But the more I think about it, the more sense that approach makes. Especially this: Rationals do not have preferences and they do not make decisions. The decision is made for them by the facts under consideration. A thousand thank you's.

Waaaaait...you guys would probably think a statement like "a thousand thank you's" is overdone. Hm, what would be a rational way to make the same point? How about this: your accurate descriptions of yourselves have helped me see correlations which I am confident will prove invaluable in my own relationship.

[Solaris]

yes, facts, that IS it. I'm sure it doesn't seem like too much of a revelation to you guys, but to me it is. His introspection does not extend to making observations like this about himself, so he would never think of saying to me, "I do better when you ask me about facts." But the more I think about it, the more sense that approach makes. Especially this: A thousand thank you's.

Waaaaait...you guys would probably think a statement like "a thousand thank you's" is overdone. Hm, what would be a rational way to make the same point? How about this: your accurate descriptions of yourselves have helped me see correlations which I am confident will prove invaluable in my own relationship.

Yes, facts. We NTs love facts. We can even handle emotional stuff. You just have to state things calmly. We don't seem to do well with being emotional while talking about emotions. I know that I try to turn off emotions, even more, when talking about a very sensitive emotional subject.

And, yes, I won't deny this, your second thank-you actually was more effective. The first one is....empty.

[Firelie]

ATo view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. a happy ending!

By the way, "a thousand thank you's" isn't overdone...it's just an expression, after all. :)

[Zilal]

How about this: your accurate descriptions of yourselves have helped me see correlations which I am confident will prove invaluable in my own relationship.

That is hilarious. A thousand thank yous!

[Trivani]

I don't know if this conversation is finished or not but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.

I used to have an ESFP girlfriend. Granted, at the time I was an INFJ and if she was intuitive like you it would have been a lot easier. Or possibly harder, I don't know...I've never had an intuitive girlfriend. Girls' difficulties with me have always been with my refusal to communicate my feelings. Your idea to drive to his work and shock him was genius! It was just what was needed to crack his rational shell. INTJs are so caught up in their own thoughts that we may just be oblivious to what's going on. My most recent girlfriend, an ESTP, often got my attention by yelling at me or something more dramatic. If she just let things go on as if things were just peachy, like most couples behave, I would grow emotionally distant and cold. It truly takes a strong person to stay with an INTJ.

[Jgib5328]

Jgib, do you mind telling me if you are male or female? I have to say that I do feel he is uninterested in other people's thoughts or feelings and hates sharing his own. But I don't know if that's accurate or just my perception. It sounds like a terrible thing to say--how could you not be interested in what other people think? but I think it doesn't have the global meaning those words convey. And after all, INTJs are great thinkers, and important new frontiers are forged by that kind of thinking. My husband is definitely that way; I often think of Newton when I watch him at work. The genius is obvious. It's not that other people are not important to him, but he often doesn't seem interested in what others think. Seem being the operative word. I'm trying to be fair. I can't judge him by my standards, I have to judge him by his own.

Is being conflict aversive an INTJ trait? I know it's an ENFP trait, and I really hate that in myself but I do observe it with maddening regularity. I just didn't think it was also an INTJ trait, yet I keep seeing it in him; if anything, I think he is more that way than I am. Our arguments, which have been extremely few, take an hour for ten minutes worth of exchanges. And after all, the difficulty I have had with this is exactly the reason I am appealing to an anonymous internet board for insight.
Thanks for all your comments.

I'm a male, and I know it sounds terrible, but that's just how an INTJ mind works. The reason why we are (or at least I am) uninterested in other people's thoughts is because mine are so interesting. I can't describe to you how much I love my own thoughts. Plus we are really independent thinkers and value our own ideas more than other people's. However this is an Ni trait. I like to get other people's insight to make sure my thoughts are still somewhat jiving with reality, I guess that is why our Te is there.

I think your husband seems really heavily T though, so much so that he can't sense your feelings well. Like I've already stated. I'd recognize your need and I'd fulfill it, especially for a spouse. I think that's an important part of marriage, but what do I know? I'm 19. I think you just have to explain to him, probably logically why you need this. I dunno I honestly think you are exempt from being a person whose thoughts your husband isn't interested in. Since he married you, he should be really interested in your thoughts.

I think your husband should consider himself a very lucky man. I love ENFs, especially ENFPs. I have a lot of ENFP friends and they are really charming and interesting people. I'm sure he knows this, but since he is an INTJ, he probably has trouble expressing this. I love my mother, but I rarely show it. I don't talk to her that much and don't express much love, but that's because that's how I am. I'm not some affectionate and expressive person, so it's normal for me to not talk to my mom for awhile, maybe like once or twice every two weeks while I'm at college. INTJs just aren't really receptive to other people's emotions and sometimes don't realize that this trait hurts the F types.

Being conflict aversive may be an INTJ trait. I tend to avoid unnecessary conflict as often as possible because, well it's unnecessary. However, if there is something worth fighting for with another person, you will be attacked without mercy. So I guess it's a conditional thing, pending on the situation. Some INTJs are really timid though, I guess some of the more introverted and less socially adept. I'm more extroverted and relatively well-developed socially so I tend to be really assertive and can be aggressive.


Anyways, good luck with your husband, I wish you the best.

[INTJoe]

I love to be asked what I am thinking, and he NEVER asks me what I'm thinking. I have explained to him, as unemotionally as I could, that asking me what I think is important to me, it is my primary love language. Still, never.
Sorry for some reason I dont have bold or italicize icons so Im gonna capitalize everything in my comments for clarity. The preceding information makes you sound very needy. INTJ's dont actively care about needs on a personal basis. Just tell him what is on your mind. Im sure he'd enjoy the engagement of ideas.



A companion issue is that he doesn't tell me what he is thinking until it is so obvious to him that he wonders why it isn't obvious to me too. I can understand it when he explains it, it's just that I can imagine a great many possibilities and can't predict which are the ones he will have thought were the most logical.
Ive read the preceding information several times and dont understand what it means.



So I need to ask. When he answers, he does so in a tone of voice that expresses utter disbelief that I should need to ask. I have tried to explain to him that that tone of voice is hurtful to me, so he tries to tone it down, but what he does is...use the same tone of voice more quietly.
So he tries to change his voice and it still isnt good enough for you? It doesn't seem like you are meeting him 'halfway'.



Likewise, I need to hear every so often some kind of affirmation that indicates he approves of me in some way.
Why? If he didn't approve of you, he would have ditched you by now.



He doesn't have to agree, and he doesn't even have to say it in a theatrical or heartfelt way; a mechanical statement from a few favorites is sufficient to register on my love meter.
It doesn't sound like it would be sufficient. It sounds like you'd find something wrong with almost everything.



This is all the more important to me when he disagrees, to help overcome the hurtfulness of his tone of voice.
Again, stop focusing on things that dont matter, like tone of voice...listen to the words that are spoken. You're diverting and getting too emotional about ancillary stuff. Unless you are out in public, his tone of voice should be of little concern.



He was engrossed in a cool theory, but I had something time-sensitive that I wanted to talk about.
Something time sensitive that YOU wanted to talk about?! Was it information on how to diffuse a ticking bomb? This sounds very needy.



I waited until it looked like he was winding down in his thinking, and then I raised the subject. It was something he did not agree with me on, and after he stated his views...in the quiet version of the disbelieving tone of voice... he pulled the covers up and closed his eyes, without ever asking me what I thought!
Ehhh, ok, so maybe he was in a bad mood. Dont make a mountain out of a molehill.



So I tried to be assertive and asked for an affirmation. He didn't answer, so I thought maybe he'd already fallen asleep, or that he hadn't heard me, so I asked "did I say that loud enough? or did you fall asleep?" He grunted, and pulled the covers up over his head! Now he is sound asleep.
If he's sound asleep he mustn't be too awful upset with you.



I'm sure someone will say "well he was just tired." That might be an explanation one time, but this is a pattern. And even then, how rude is that?
Rude? What is rude about not wanting to advance a conversation with somebody at bedtime? He didn't sign a contract to fulfill your dialogue requirements at all hours of the night, did he?



To dismiss your loved one's concerns without any acknowledgment just because you're tired? This was something very important to me, and he knew it. At least he could say, "I'm tired, can we talk about it in the morning?"
None of what you've stated leads me to believe an INTJ doesn't care about your concerns. It's just a disconnect you two have. The love and caring may surely be there. I have difficulty expressing my love and adoration of my ISTJ gf, and she's only 1 letter different from me.



I can hardly stand it. If my value system for marriage wasn't "failure is not an option," I would be so outta here right now. Is there an INTJ out there who can give me some understanding of what is going on here?
Why would failure not be an option? People change. It seems as though your idealist virtue may be clouding reality. I do admire people who are willing to work at a marriage, but it is dangerous to blindly give the blanket statement 'FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION', in regards to marriage. I do wish the two of you luck, though.



I am not an emotional wreck.
Yeah, you are :)



I know that he does love me
So now you are fully aware that he loves you? You just listed like 975 things that sound like you have a shaky relationship. Quite a dichotomy.



and although he may have his issues
Pardon the pun, but it sounds like he sleeps fine at night. Seriously, does he really have issues? Issues are relatively, and to him, he would suggest he does not have issues. It may appear so from your standpoint but I highly doubt he has issues with himself regarding the aforementioned disconnect.



I strongly suspect that most of the problem relates to the difference between enfp's and intj's.
Hey, you're learning! Good luck!



I understand the enfp part well enough; it's the intj stuff I'm looking for comments on.
Glad to have you aboard! I have a little bro and sis whom are ENFP so I have some experience with the type! They are exciting, popular, and fun people, but I wish they had some more ambition!!! Its not my problem though, I am trying to come to grips with me letting them flourish in their own way and not apply the INTJ mores to them.



edit note: information on how to use quote tags is located here (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

[asongforgrace]

haha, INTJoe's post amuses me
somewhat horrible..but amusing.

ps, good luck gyro sounds like you found what you were looking for so hope it applies back in real life! :)

[Meyer]

I am currently in a relationship with an enfp and it has taken me a long time to realize that her and most other people need affirmation if not more than at least much differently than I do. I think our natural way of showing that we care is to give the person as much freedom as they want in charting their own course and being as autonomous as possible. Since that is what we value most, we tend to make the false assumption that by giving it to others they will know they are loved. My only suggestion to you is to find a way to get through to him. I'm sure it will be like banging your head against a brick wall but eventually he should catch on. I'm not sure when it "clicked" for me but I do know it is something I have to continually remind myself of so I don't forget.

[gyrogenerian]

Meyer, that is very encouraging.

INTJoe, I think you are systematically wrong. You are interpreting my responses through your own issues. I do not fault you for it, just making an observation. ENFPs can certainly be those things, but my assertions are not needy. If anything, I have the opposite problem, ignoring my real needs. The triumph for me today was to be able to explain to him simply that I need to have him inquire. Nothing wrong with having needs, he has his, I have mine. But thank you for being objective enough to include some positive statements.

Actually, I find your interpretation fascinating in its errors, and when I have time I may come back and give you a point for point discussion of my views. In the meantime, I'll just pick the first one that I can reply quickly to:

So he tries to change his voice and it still isnt good enough for you? It doesn't seem like you are meeting him 'halfway'.Oh, I'm meeting him past halfway, because I have been compensating for this for years even though it hurts my feelings every time. The point is that if I care about the relationship, and he is doing something that has a consistent effect on me, it is a sign of respect for me to explain what is bothering me. I find it touching that he tries to change it, and frustrating that he doesn't understand enough to really implement the change. But I think he himself explained why: it just seems so obvious to him. There really is an underlying belief that is mirrored in the tone of voice: "Why don't you understand this painfully obvious point?"

The answer that is starting to become apparent to me is that he is dealing with the facts as he sees them, so if we disagree, rather than being angry at him for what actually is a rude tone of voice, I can examine the facts at hand and see if there is anything else we need to discuss.

And, yes, I won't deny this, your second thank-you actually was more effective. The first one is....empty.
Solaris, your comment made me laugh out loud. Surely that is as good an example of personality differences as anyone can come up with. I so thought it was the opposite! Those thousand thank you's were very heartfelt while the second thank you was a mechanical description. LOL. But this is also why it is so valuable to dialogue like this, because it is from doing this that I identified that saying it another way would be more likely to have meaning to an INTJ. In short, you guys are great practice!

[Uytuun]

Waaaaait...you guys would probably think a statement like "a thousand thank you's" is overdone.

Not really, especially considering we know you're an ENFP. Although it may depend on the mood I'm in.

[mind_wander]

Hope this helps.

I totally agreed with this rwyatt365, when I am talking to feeler types. Its freaking annoying, once is kinda enough, I don't need to hear it like what 100x times. Throw some in-direct or direct comments, I'm glad to helped you out :) I loved this great input, so harilious and very true :) That will make him talked for sure. Wow, she are so interested me, probably brain is so screwed up on overdrive to spit out tons of his inputs out on the open.

[Solaris]

Solaris, your comment made me laugh out loud. Surely that is as good an example of personality differences as anyone can come up with. I so thought it was the opposite! Those thousand thank you's were very heartfelt while the second thank you was a mechanical description. LOL. But this is also why it is so valuable to dialogue like this, because it is from doing this that I identified that saying it another way would be more likely to have meaning to an INTJ. In short, you guys are great practice!

In fairness, I am an ENTJ, not INTJ. I do get on with INTJs very well though, and we do use our functions in similar ways.

I think it's just an NT way to want to know why about a thank you. To me, one thank you is just as meaningful as one thousand. However, if you just tell me why you need to thank me in the first place, I usually get much more out of it. Maybe it's our logic side, maybe we're just that clueless, maybe it's something else entirely.

I have a few NF friends, and sort of tried on the ENFP personality when I was younger (it seemed like that would make me fit in better during college, then I realized I didn't care if I fit in or not). I know that they are ...gushier shall we say than I am about these things, and I accept that. The ones I know well also accept that I am not going to be gushy, but I will be sincere.

As a person who loves to laugh, glad I could make you laugh too! ;D

[mind_wander]

As a person who loves to laugh, glad I could make you laugh too! ;D

I think we all here had a great laugh, I sure am :)

[INTJoe]

INTJoe, I think you are systematically wrong. You are interpreting my responses through your own issues.

What do you mean by my own issues?


but my assertions are not needy...I need to have him inquire. Nothing wrong with having needs

Not needy, needy, needy. :huh:



Actually, I find your interpretation fascinating in its errors, and when I have time I may come back and give you a point for point discussion of my views.

Definitely.


it hurts my feelings every time. There really is an underlying belief that is mirrored in the tone of voice: "Why don't you understand this painfully obvious point?"

It hurts your feelings that your hubby is too intelligent? Embrace it. Deal with the pitfalls.

[gyrogenerian]

Just thought I'd let you guys know that my dh came around and said yes to the question I was asking him the night this all started. It turns out that once I dealt with his objections and presented my reasons for what I wanted, he was quite amenable. As has been said: the INTJ is always willing to look at new ideas, as long as the reasons for them are sound.

[INTJoe]

Glad to hear!

Plz to be responding to my post? :rolleyes:

[sriv]

I think that your husband is getting moody. When I get moody my INTJ qualities take a harsh side and I close my mind to new things which is exactly the opposite of what I do usually.

As an INTJ I value equality and fairness to extremes. When my friend pays for me, I am bewildered when he refuses to take my half the bill. It leaves me incomplete because it is not fair.

He behaved rather egotistically, I usually value other's opinions. Sometimes I need to retreat into my mind to think things through so that might be what he was doing.