Female INTJs and finger patterns

[castalia]

I've posted this in another forum and I would like to get some responses from you.

Female INTJs: when you measure them against each other, which is longer, your ring finger or your index finger? Are they both of equal size?

[pocohauntus]

exactly equal in length.

but more importantly: my middle finger is even longer and i, being the bitch who I am, raise it, oh i dunno, maybe five times in a day, and when i raise it to you, it means I really don't like you, so fuck off, idiot.

[SelfMadeBum]

My ring finger is noticeably longer.

[yoginimama]

It's close, but my ring finger is longer.

#

So I went and looked up what that's supposed to mean, and it was hilarious--girls with longer ring fingers are supposed to be better at math and worse at verbal. Uh...not me.

(If only I'd known this when I was trying to get into colleges. "Yes, sir, I realize I scored 425 on the math SAT, but if you look closely, my ring finger is slightly longer than my index, meaning I am actually very good at math, even though this fact has yet to manifest." "Nice try." "Hey, it's also supposed to mean I'm a lesbian, so, can I get in on diversity??")

[Titian]

Mine are exactly equal in length on both hands and the fingers of both hands are exactly equal to each other.

Considering other posts that I have made explaining my gender... I don't know whether you would all see my participation in this thread as being completely relevant. Anyone who doesn't see it as relevant can disregard one vote for the third option.

[rara avis]

Measuring from the base of each, my ring finger is about a 1/4 inch longer than my index finger.

[geekmother]

Both ring fingers are longer than both index fingers. Math always bored me senseless, even though I was good at it. I think the finger thing has to do with exposure to male hormones or something in utero. I take goofy quizzes sometimes, and my results always show me to be a man or a masculine woman. I am very feminine, just in different ways.

And I am scared of bugs and make my husband or children kill them. Although if someone broke into my house or harmed my children, I'd have no problem filling them full of hollow-points.

[Lestat]

My index finger is longer than my ring finger. Though it looks like I'm the only one with such fingers. :laugh:

[geekmother]

I think my excuse for my longer ring fingers is that I'm a gay man trapped in a woman's body.

[SelfMadeBum]

I think my excuse for my longer ring fingers is that I'm a gay man trapped in a woman's body.You have no idea how many times I've talked myself out of believing that about myself.

[Transmorfer]

I think my excuse for my longer ring fingers is that I'm a gay man trapped in a woman's body.

This is almost scaring...I made exactly the same reflection about myself during a coaching session...

[Geodess]

well i am an intp but my ring finger is definitely longer the my index finger...

are intj women typically more hairy too...i mean that in the nicest way possible, a question about the testorone levels and such..

[SelfMadeBum]

well i am an intp but my ring finger is definitely longer the my index finger...

are intj women typically more hairy too...i mean that in the nicest way possible, a question about the testorone levels and such..I was told I was a very hairy baby (whatever the hell that means, I think they meant my sideburns) but I think now I have a little less body hair than is average for a female, meaning it grows slower and finer.

[Transmorfer]

well i am an intp but my ring finger is definitely longer the my index finger...

are intj women typically more hairy too...i mean that in the nicest way possible, a question about the testorone levels and such..

Funny, I see no other physiological signs of too much testosterone. Only mental, since I´ve been told that I think and respond like a man, but look quite feminine (the long leg/small-medium boob way) and have no excessive body hair :) (well, okay, I do have to shave legs in the summer...but then again, most women do ;)).

[geekmother]

Almost no body hair here. I can go almost a month without shaving my legs, and when I do, I have to be in good light to see anything.

Even with my funny fingers, I look super-feminine. Hourglass figure and such.

[Tough Love]

Ring finger longer... If you dont know me i come across as very feminine - Those who know me swear i should've been born a man.

[plotthickens]

All my results show me to be male, and yet am a straight woman in a very womanly body. *shrug* Happy with who I am, so pee on their silly "you should be" theories!

[DanteFalling]

Ring fingers slightly longer than index fingers.

I AM a gay man trapped in a woman's body. Yeay. :cheesy:

:suspicious:Seriously though:I was part of my mother's first pregnancy, which may have something to do with elevated testosterone levels. I've read somewhere this can affect the finger length growth.

I've seen a few responses above mine, and I think there's a social dislike prevalent when it comes to testosterone. I quite like it. It gives you a pleasant sex drive. I hated all those hyper-simplified explanations when you were 8 that estrogen is the female hormone and testosterone is the male. Our ovaries AND adrenal glands produce testosterone we need. The fact is, we have to have a certain amount of testosterone or we aren't "female." When you go through menopause, all three of women's major hormones--progesterone, estrogen, and testosterone fall. This explains some lack of sex drive in women.

Sex hormones are far more complex than the simplistic estrogen=girl testosterone=boy dichotomy. Now that I'm thoroughly into my straw-man argument: something really interesting is that the restructuring of the average male's brain occurs because an enzyme changes testosterone into estradiol (a hormone classically considered to belong to women).:stunned: Again, straw-man hyper simplifies.


I like to think about it this way: males need 10-60 times more testosterone than we do to get the same kick.

---------- Post added 11-18-2009 at 02:16 PM ----------

well i am an intp but my ring finger is definitely longer the my index finger...

are intj women typically more hairy too...i mean that in the nicest way possible, a question about the testorone levels and such..

I have so little body hair it's difficult to find the reason to shave. Of course body hair has to do with not only individual hormones but also your genetics/family group. My family is predominately north-western european and native american--two groups known for a lack of body hair. But even in comparison to my relatives, I don't have hirsuteness, especially not on the arms and legs.

[Roxie]

Lestat, you are not alone!! My index finger is longer than my ring finger. :confused:

[WiSH85]

Ring-finger is longer.

I think my excuse for my longer ring fingers is that I'm a gay man trapped in a woman's body.


Count me in too... I'm glad I'm not the only one. You know what I mean. It's a really odd feeling.



DanteFalling, thank you for the hormone explanation; I never explain it right to others. Now I know how.

[Aiss]

I've posted this in another forum and I would like to get some responses from you.

Female INTJs: when you measure them against each other, which is longer, your ring finger or your index finger? Are they both of equal size?

By "posted this in another forum", you mean a forum centered around different MBTI type? I don't know if you're gathering data from INTPs somewhere as well, but for whatever it's worth, my ring finger is 5mm longer. I didn't vote, obviously.

As to the hormones levels... finger length and "male brain" (a ridiculous concept IMO; they say [only] ~60% of men are more analytical/visual, and call it "male". It's like saying "60% of Americans are overweight", then go and define it as "American weight syndrome". Wait, "American size" is actually used... people are weird.) are said to depend on prenatal level of testosterone (ie. level of testosterone in mother's body during pregnancy), while excessive body hair, masculine figure etc. depend on how much testosterone you body is producing. I'm short and feminine (and have little body hair), yet have obviously "male" brain and finger ratio. Same goes for my sister, and to an extent for my mother (she's an ESFJ, but she's intelligent and can think abstractly - math, physics, etc. - it's just that she refuses to use it in everyday life). I'm going to check if my niece follows the pattern in finger ratio when I next see her.

[Antares]

How do you guys measure it? I measured it from my palm, according to the lines, and both fingers are more or less the same. Then, I bent my fingers at the joints, and measured from the edge of the finger to the tips, and my ring finger is almost 0.5 cm longer than my index finger.

Edit: Nevermind. If I stretch them out, my ring finger is clearly longer.

[aikifox85]

Ok, this is going to sound weird.. on my left hand, my index finger is clearly longer. On my right hand, the index and ring fingers are equal in length. so.. what the heck is that supposed to mean?

[castalia]

So, according to this poll, a reasonable estimate states that most INTJ women (about 3/4 in this forum) have excess testosterone when compared to the rest of the female population. A ring finger that is longer than index finger means that you received more testosterone in the womb, whether male or female. It also means that you have a slightly higher chance of being lesbian or bisexual, you are usually more of a go-getter, think more like a man, have more body hair than the average fem, and also might have an larger clitoris. Since INTJ is so rare in women, this testosterone theory makes quite sense.

I suspected the answer long before all of you answered this question. It is nice to confirm one's views.:)

[geekmother]

I've wondered why I tend to think like a man but ooze feminity. I've always been estrogen-dominant, so perhaps I have the best of both?

Smooth skin, hourglass shape, almost hairless, straight--yet I can read a map and tell you the make and model of a car without giving you the color instead. I'll leave the clitoris one alone. I think that has more to do with being intersexed?

[Aiss]

^ It seems you aren't the only feminine one with longer ring finger. As I've said before, finger length and (possibly) associated brain development is related to the prenatal exposure of testosterone - which may be because of mother's body producing more testosterone during pregnancy - while other androgynous qualities are related to the levels of testosterone during one's life after birth. It makes sense that the first wouldn't necessarily imply the second (whether there's an association the other way is another matter).

I wouldn't say high testosterone level makes a woman INTJ... it would be more associated with NT preference in general, I think.

[Titian]

^ It seems you aren't the only feminine one with longer ring finger. As I've said before, finger length and (possibly) associated brain development is related to the prenatal exposure of testosterone - which may be because of mother's body producing more testosterone during pregnancy - while other androgynous qualities are related to the levels of testosterone during one's life after birth. It makes sense that the first wouldn't necessarily imply the second (whether there's an association the other way is another matter).

I wouldn't say high testosterone level makes a woman INTJ... it would be more associated with NT preference in general, I think.


I'd like to ask a question in relation to this because it concerns me. I was born intersexed but I grew up to be more feminine and am generally seen as such by other people. I have the equal length finger ratio and have been an INTJ as long as I can remember. Is it possible, considering all of that is basically an exception to the theory, that brain development depends on a parallel hormonal process rather than an associated one?

In my case it would seem to have been necessary for the level of testosterone to have caused my finger ratio while causing an unlikely brain development. Of course my gender is an unlikely result as well. I considered at one point that I might be a chimera but my overall structure, coloring, etc. is too symmetrical and uniform for that to seem likely.

I'm not sure what I think of this yet. Maybe it's a good explanation for everyone else but it doesn't seem to quite make sense in my case. How do you think the theory resolves someone like me?

[geekmother]

It only makes sense for me (in my case) in one area, so I don't think there are any hard and fast rules. There are so many other areas in which we are told, "Men are this way; women are this way" that I don't really buy too much of it.

I've been on the fringes of statistics my whole life, and I'm the exception in just about everything. I think I've embraced it, although it does get tiring to hear that because I'm a woman, I'm supposed to look or act a certain way. Or that because I'm a woman, I'm supposed to have smaller hands and feet; or because I'm taller, I'm supposed to be infertile or something.

I do know that people aren't comfortable when they can't classify something or someone neatly and easily. Those square pegs who don't fit into round holes make people nervous. I've seen what "normal" looks and acts like, and I'm glad I don't fit it. Well, except when I'm trying to buy clothes, gloves, and shoes.

[liquidzilla]

Very tiny difference but my index is longer (by about a mm).
I'm not feminine acting, but I look feminine (even though I have a strong jaw, but apparently I'm one of the most womanly people most others have met...well I have small breasts and am quite tall but still). I'm also possibly dyslexic, but also cannot do maths...

[Storm]

Look about equal to me. Although my left ring finger is maybe a smidgen longer, but it's hard to tell. So, I'll call them equal.

[Aiss]

I'd like to ask a question in relation to this because it concerns me. I was born intersexed but I grew up to be more feminine and am generally seen as such by other people. I have the equal length finger ratio and have been an INTJ as long as I can remember. Is it possible, considering all of that is basically an exception to the theory, that brain development depends on a parallel hormonal process rather than an associated one?

In my case it would seem to have been necessary for the level of testosterone to have caused my finger ratio while causing an unlikely brain development. Of course my gender is an unlikely result as well. I considered at one point that I might be a chimera but my overall structure, coloring, etc. is too symmetrical and uniform for that to seem likely.

I'm not sure what I think of this yet. Maybe it's a good explanation for everyone else but it doesn't seem to quite make sense in my case. How do you think the theory resolves someone like me?

I have no idea. Sorry if it came off as if I knew more than I did, but I only really spoke of different correlations (prenatal and later levels of testosterone). There's a strong correlation between prenatal level of testosterone and finger length, finger length and spatial/analytical abilities, testosterone levels when growing up and masculine traits in females (figure, body hair, etc.). The only one which is confirmed is the latter (because in some cases hormonal therapy for girls works), although there's no saying if high testosterone is enough.

What I meant to say was that we really can't draw further conclusions from it, especially ones like "women with longer ring finger have higher levels of testosterone", followed by enumeration of its characteristics. The finger ratio only gives us an idea of testosterone level before birth, not during life. If there's a correlation, I'd like to see the study that shows it.

[swanhonk]

Mine are equal in length. I'd say my test. level is on the higher end of the normal range for women. I read a study about how women with higher test. levels tend to give birth to more boys. I'm curious about that -- Maybe I should do a poll for INTJ mothers and see what if there's a higher percentage of male children.

[Storm]

Mine are equal in length. I'd say my test. level is on the higher end of the normal range for women. I read a study about how women with higher test. levels tend to give birth to more boys. I'm curious about that -- Maybe I should do a poll for INTJ mothers and see what if there's a higher percentage of male children.

This makes no sense. Male gametes determines the sex of a child, not female. Further, you're assuming in such a "study" that female INTJs have more testorone than is normal. There is no reason to believe that.

[geekmother]

I have the longer ring finger, and I gave birth to three girls. Two INTJs and one ENTJ.

[eibuos]

Gay man trapped in a woman's body? Hmm.. that does sound like me!

Ring finger longer on both hands. "You have to treat her like you would a man". A friend once said, referring to me. Although I look very feminine.

[swanhonk]

This makes no sense. Male gametes determines the sex of a child, not female. Further, you're assuming in such a "study" that female INTJs have more testorone than is normal. There is no reason to believe that.

Yes, the sperm cell determines the sex, but the hormonal chemistry of the female could make her better suited to facilitate the fertilization of one over the other. If you want to read up on it yourself, look up the work of Valerie Grant. There's actually been quite a lot of studies done on this. I didn't imply female INTJs had more testosterone than is normal....I said it's possible that many INTJ women have testosterone levels that are on the higher end of a normal range for women....

[runoverazebra]

My ring finger and index finger are equal in length, although my index finger has a noticeably larger width than my ring finger.

[t3hrubikscube]

My ring fingers are longer than my pointer fingers.

[Scenery]

On my left hand, my ring finger is longer than my pointer finger. However, on my right hand, my ring finger and pointer finger are the same length.

[castalia]

Question for those women who have the longer ring finger: Can you separate emotions from sex?

[geekmother]

Question for those women who have the longer ring finger: Can you separate emotions from sex?

Yes, indeedy. Well, unless we're married or already in a real relationship.

I tried the FWB and F-buddy thing. I liked it, but the guys got possessive and jealous, and they wouldn't freaking stop calling. Yikes.

[Transmorfer]

Question for those women who have the longer ring finger: Can you separate emotions from sex?

Yes, that is clearly possible.

I read through the thread, and it seems that quite a few of us actually look feminine but think and talk like men (I know I do). Do you ever find it hard to communicate with more "mentally feminine women" in general?

[geekmother]

Yes, that is clearly possible.

I read through the thread, and it seems that quite a few of us actually look feminine but think and talk like men (I know I do). Do you ever find it hard to communicate with more "mentally feminine women" in general?

Oh, Jesus, yes. Give me a roomful of men any day. Trying to have a conversation at a baby shower (I avoid this shit, but when I'm blackmailed into going) makes me want to stick an icepick in someone's head. (Not my own, obviously. I'm not the one with the problem :devilish:)

[castalia]

I tried the FWB and F-buddy thing. I liked it, but the guys got possessive and jealous, and they wouldn't freaking stop calling. Yikes.

Yes, I've had the same thing! I guess it must be a testosterone thing couples with the male brain. God I love it! I can see why many men would fear women like us though, as we have the best of both worlds....femininity and a masculine mind!

[Transmorfer]

I was once almost lynched at a baby/mother group. We were giving our babies a baby massage (in almond oil), and when my chubby 3 months son was all covered in oil I said:"Yup, I´m done, he is ready for the charcoal grill now". Complete silence and everybody looking at me.....women have no sense of humour...

[lucyinthefknsky]

Right hand: fingers are close to equal with the ring finger being only slightly longer.

Left hand: ring finger is noticeably longer than index finger.

[Storm]

I find it quite insulting that the following argument is being laid in this thread:

Men = High Testorene = INTJ personality.

Therefore, the INTJ personality is innately masculine. Therefore, INTJ women are masculine and think "like men." Therefore, INTJ women must have higher testorene than usual.

So many presumptions, so many sexists statements, so much profiling.

[castalia]

Therefore, the INTJ personality is innately masculine. Therefore, INTJ women are masculine and think "like men." Therefore, INTJ women must have higher testorene than usual.

Well, I don't understand why you would consider it sexist. Statistics show that The T type is far more prevalent among men than women. INTx men far outnumber INTx women. This does not indicate that women are mentally inferior.....it just shows that men have a greater tendency to base their decisions on the T rather than the F, which is much more prevalent among women.

Since, in general, men have 10 times the testosterone level of women, they also tend to have the "male finger" pattern. People of both sexes with the high testosterone have a much higher likelihood of being Ts than Fs. Nothing sexist about this at all.

[DanteFalling]

Well, I don't understand why you would consider it sexist. Statistics show that The T type is far more prevalent among men than women. INTx men far outnumber INTx women. This does not indicate that women are mentally inferior.....it just shows that men have a greater tendency to base their decisions on the T rather than the F, which is much more prevalent among women.

Since, in general, men have 10 times the testosterone level of women, they also tend to have the "male finger" pattern. People of both sexes with the high testosterone have a much higher likelihood of being Ts than Fs. Nothing sexist about this at all.


Hmm, the only studies I've found cited have males with a T correlation at 60% and Females at 40%. According to my understanding, and please correct me on this, MBTI is self-reporting. If so, in order to make hypotheses about correlations, it seems we would have to take into account how many socialized men would want to appear "Thinking" (especially with the somewhat mal-appropriate terminology) and how many socialized women would want to appear "Feeling," especially with that weighty implication.

I don't see a point in anyone attempting sexism intentionally here, but I also don't think the conclusions follow.

[Storm]

Well, I don't understand why you would consider it sexist. Statistics show that The T type is far more prevalent among men than women. INTx men far outnumber INTx women. This does not indicate that women are mentally inferior.....it just shows that men have a greater tendency to base their decisions on the T rather than the F, which is much more prevalent among women.

Since, in general, men have 10 times the testosterone level of women, they also tend to have the "male finger" pattern. People of both sexes with the high testosterone have a much higher likelihood of being Ts than Fs. Nothing sexist about this at all.

I'm sorry? Statistics show that about 45% of men are Fs. Doesn't exactly show that testorene is the cause of the T trait in men.

---------- Post added 12-07-2009 at 07:39 PM ----------

I don't see a point in anyone attempting sexism intentionally here, but I also don't think the conclusions follow.

Longer ring fingers than index fingers is caused by higher exposures of testostorene in the womb. Since this thread is asking INTJ women specifically if they demonstrate this trait - the inference is that INTJ women have higher testostorene and that this higher testostorene causes the T trait. In order for this theory that testorene causes the T trait to be true one would also have to conclude that F men (45% of the male population) have testostorene level comparable to most women. Since nearly all men have higher testostorene than women (around 10x higher), such a position is obviously false.

The only reason people are willing to entertain such an obviously false statement is because the T trait is mistakingly associated with masculinity and the F trait with feminity. Further, people assume that any perceived difference between men and women is due to the influence of testorene - I suppose because this is the only chemical they know about which is different. But it plainly does not hold up to scrutiny. Why would someone believe something so easily disproved? Because they are basing their conclusions off of sexist stereotypes.

[Daisy McRae]

Index fingers and ring fingers the same length on both hands for me.

[Aiss]

Well, I don't understand why you would consider it sexist. Statistics show that The T type is far more prevalent among men than women. INTx men far outnumber INTx women. This does not indicate that women are mentally inferior.....it just shows that men have a greater tendency to base their decisions on the T rather than the F, which is much more prevalent among women.

Since, in general, men have 10 times the testosterone level of women, they also tend to have the "male finger" pattern. People of both sexes with the high testosterone have a much higher likelihood of being Ts than Fs. Nothing sexist about this at all.

As was pointed by others, difference between T and F preference in men and women is within the range of possible social influence. And for n-th time, finger length doesn't depend on level of testosterone during life, but prenatal exposure to testosterone. There are a lot of other variables involved, too.

And lets not forget that (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts..2FEthnic_variation_in_2D:4D ).