intuiting

[chocky]

When you intuit something, do you say "I think..." or "I feel..."?

[rwyatt365]

Always, "I think...". For the most part, the only times that I use "I feel..." is when describing a physical sensation; "I feel cold", "I feel hungry", etc...

[qwerty]

I never say "I feel".
Intuiting I may suggest an answer like : "maybe we could, maybe you could"

[Doppelbock]

Anyone who says "I feel..." needs to have his INTJ membership revoked unless (s)he is saying, e.g., "I feel hungry", "I feel cold", etc. ;)

DB

[justmeiguess]

Anyone who says "I feel..." needs to have his INTJ membership revoked unless (s)he is saying, e.g., "I feel hungry", "I feel cold", etc. *;)

DB

How about "I feel like Chicken Tonight"? Or would memebership be revoked on the grounds of bad taste?

[rwyatt365]

;)

[chocky]

How about something along the lines of "I feel uneasy about that ... it doesn't make sense."

or

"I feel distressed by double posts, they don't obey my sense of order"?

[chocky]

So the sensation/experience of something not making sense is not a 'feeling' sensation? ie. It has no place in the body?

How does intuition register? How does it hit you, physically, and is this not truly a feeling?

[thegnat]

How about something along the lines of "I feel uneasy about that ... it doesn't make sense."

or

"I feel distressed by double posts, they don't obey my sense of order"?

I don't say "I feel uneasy" or "I feel distressed" or "I feel stressed" I say "I am......"

I rarely say "I feel" even with "cold, hungry" I always state "I am...."

I suppose I should say I never say "I feel" at least so rarely I can't think of an instance...hmm...

I always say "I think..." that's VERY common for me.

[rwyatt365]

How about something along the lines of "I feel uneasy about that ... it doesn't make sense."

or

"I feel distressed by double posts, they don't obey my sense of order"?
double-post destroyed! Order restored.

[qwerty]

So the sensation/experience of something not making sense is not a 'feeling' sensation? ie. It has no place in the body?

How does intuition register? How does it hit you, physically, and is this not truly a feeling?

Ok I'll give you an example of intuition in my mind:

There is a girl I know who I am uneasy about. Firstly it sparked when I was in a class with her and she just couldn't get the question and even still had a blank expression on her face when I stepped her through it and gave her the answer(which she didn't get was the answer), so anyway she wasn't attractive and she seemed like a "feeling" type so I dropped it and didn't bother with her again for the rest of the year.
The begining of this year and another girl(better start naming them call new girl B and old girl A) I met is working with the original girl(A), and during one of my conversations with girl(b) it came up that girl(a) had a butterfly on her car - which leads me to the butterfly manifestation - see I have this thing, to me if you have a butterfly on your car (sticker) then you are crazy and signals of stay away ring in my head, because everyone that I've ever met to date who has a butterfly on their car comes across as irrational to me to me.

So I guess the "feeling" of uneasiness I experience is more me 'relating' an image of what I know to be true to the present situation. It's not so much that I "feel" it - it's more that I use conclusive argument to 'relate' it (and I've never been wrong about this theory of butterfly's yet).

[justmeiguess]

How about something along the lines of "I feel uneasy about that ... it doesn't make sense."

or

"I feel distressed by double posts, they don't obey my sense of order"?

I don't say "I feel uneasy" or "I feel distressed" or "I feel stressed" I say "I am......"

I rarely say "I feel" even with "cold, hungry" I always state "I am...."

I suppose I should say I never say "I feel" at least so rarely I can't think of an instance...hmm...

I always say "I think..." that's VERY common for me.



Yeah, I tend to say "I am" too. For example, a few minutes ago I was thinking: "I am distressed by double posts, they don't obey my sense of order. I am also extremely ticked off by this stupid mouse which has Back and Forward buttons on the side which make me double post."


double-post destroyed! Order restored.

Huzzah!

Thank you. :thumbsup:

[rwyatt365]

So the sensation/experience of something not making sense is not a 'feeling' sensation? ie. It has no place in the body?

How does intuition register? How does it hit you, physically, and is this not truly a feeling?
…another example;
Last night I was helping my wife with her math homework (basic Algebra, she's re-starting her Associates degree). Anyway, she was asking me how I knew what to do when approaching solving an equation for a variable. I told her things like, "you move all of the numbers to one side and all of the variables to the other", and she kept asking me, "But how do you know to DO that?"

In that exchange I realized that, when I look at an equation, I can almost see the values move around on the paper. It's kinda spooky but that's how I've always related to mathematics. I don't know if you can call it intuition, but when I look at math problems I can see the relationships between things and the solutions come to me before I even start the formal solution process. It's not so much a feeling as it is a visualization.

When I was programming in assembly language years ago, it was the same way. Sometimes it was like the code just put itself together. I know that by todays standards I was breaking a lot of rules but it was so much fun creating "strange and wonderful" ways to do things in code, and then see it do something in the real world (I was doing real-time data acquisition and process control type stuff then).

[chocky]

Thanks guys for the examples (and the whole new twist on "butterfly effect").

I can see how intuition operates to link things that have no immediately evident relationship, and agree that it is a low key process. Much of the time I will phrase my intuitive data as "I think"s.

But I'm driving also at those eureka revelation moments. If Archimedes leapt from his bath in the excitement of an intuitive breakthrough, surely it manifested a physical and feeling component. Why then do we tend not say "I feel..." (as I would say that I experience my intuition in my body as well as my thoughts/visualisation capacity, hence "I feel") as freely as we say "I think..."?

[Doppelbock]

Anyone who says "I feel..." needs to have his INTJ membership revoked unless (s)he is saying, e.g., "I feel hungry", "I feel cold", etc. ;)

DB

How about "I feel like Chicken Tonight"? Or would memebership be revoked on the grounds of bad taste?


No, that would be okay. "I feel sad..." or "I feel that <state opinion>..." though, is grounds for dismissal from the ranks of INTJ's. ;-)

[Natrushka]

Often I say "I know" or "I don't know how I know, but I know".

[rwyatt365]

But I'm driving also at those eureka revelation moments. If Archimedes leapt from his bath in the excitement of an intuitive breakthrough, surely it manifested a physical and feeling component. Why then do we tend not say "I feel..." (as I would say that I experience my intuition in my body as well as my thoughts/visualisation capacity, hence "I feel") as freely as we say "I think..."?
...got it.

My eureka-moments are like looking up at the desert sky and seeing ALL of the stars in the heavens (not just the ones strong enough to poke through the light polluted skies of the city). You look up and go "DAMN! Was all of that up there all of the time?!!", almost like a whole new level of consciousness has just opened up in my brain.

When I get that "feeling" I can say that I am truly happy.

[mind_wander]

lol, funny saying about double-posting. Actually just recently on this forum, I did that by accident and quickly changed it.

[snoogit]

I always use "I think..." if its a sensation (cold, warm, etc.) I tend to say things like "Brr it's cold!" or "DAMN! its f***ing HOT!" Although I've trained myself on how to handle social situations in ways that don't make sense to most people.

[deicruxified]

most cases "i think" i also use "i sense" i rarely use "i feel"

QUESTION: has this happened to you already when somthing smells fishy the "gut master" or the intuition as i would like to call it goes on red alert however no matter how you try to build a logical explanation it can never be valid to most people due to lack of empirical evidences, hence you can't prove your point? coz there was this instance when a friend of ours was murdered and most of my n friends sense it was the father behind all of it. it was actually a clean crime so not enough evidence was found to pinpoint the murderer. but we did sense his father was acting strangely before and after the crime so we tried digging more into my friend's family but her father stopped us from doing it... we thought it had something to do with her mom's life insurance and being her daughter, our friend, as the second beneficiary pissed him off (sibling and relatives of blood relations are the beneficiaries in life insurances here).. we just sense the father, a former drug lord who is obsessed with money, knows nothing about life insurance.

damn!

[Elizabeth9999]

Anyone who says "I feel..." needs to have his INTJ membership revoked unless (s)he is saying, e.g., "I feel hungry", "I feel cold", etc. *;)

DB


i frequently use " i feel" instead of "i think". i am aware that it is an incongruous term to use and that what "i think" is more important than what "i feel". but i still use "i feel". when i say this,everyone knows that i really mean "i think", so what's the difference? it's just a matter of semantics... details... it shouldn't matter. you might ask, if they mean the same thing,then why don't i say "i think" instead of "i feel"? a couple reasons:

(1) "feel" captures the feel of intuition more than "think"
(2) if i say "feel", i can more easily back out of having to explain myself if an annoying person comes along and asks me to explain my thinking... it's easier to say "that's just the way i feel" than "that's just the way i think". so "i feel" is kind of a way to protect myself from possible annoying attack.. of course, if someone intelligent comes along and asks me to explain myself, i will do so
(3) if i'm wrong, i look less silly by having used "i feel" instead of "i think" -- e.g.,hey, i told you i was just relying on my emotion, why did you expect me to be corrrect
(4) i like making difficult things seem easy and saying "i feel" does this quite nicely. you should try this sometime, it's quite enjoyable, especially when dealing with non-intj people example:

No-so-smart person: Why is the store closed?
You (intj): I feel that it closed at 10:00 because that's what the big sign in front of your face said

Okay, that was tongue in cheek, but anyway, tthere are various reasons why i sometimes use "feel" instead of "think". try it sometime, you might like it. *:) and don't be so harsh on those who made different word choices than you *:(

[Elizabeth9999]

Why then do we tend not say "I feel..." (as I would say that I experience my intuition in my body as well as my thoughts/visualisation capacity, hence "I feel") as freely as we say "I think..."?

my guess is that most people say "think" rather than "feel" because

(1) they don't want to denigrate intuitition to a feeling function, because thinking is superior to feeling
(2) it's more accurate to say "thinking" *because intuition actually is *thinking, not a feeling function; i say this because it's not ego-related -- typically one's feelings are ego-related, but intuition is frequently not ego-related

to conclude, i think it's because intjs are both (1) accurate and (2) take pride in their thoughts

altough, see my post above for reasons why an intj might use feel instead of think

[aude]

I agree, intjs are more incline to utilize 'i think and so on'. I i have tendency to use i feel only in the company of one friend, due to his emotional instability. It easier to deal with him if i use 'i feel' , since i dont come across robot like in manner. Its so hard to do but it can be done, but after wards you really think down of yourself once you say those words. I dont say 'i feel hungry', i say '(i know) i am hungry'

[Natrushka]

I dont say 'i feel hungry', i say '(i know) i am hungry'

heard around here: "Good god I am hungry"

[aude]

I dont say 'i feel hungry', i say '(i know) i am hungry'

heard around here: "Good god I am hungry"
heheh depending on how good god could be i guess that could fit into the realm of a intj :). Good thing most if at all intjs are not religious or that would be saying god in vain :-p

[Ijz]

When you intuit something, do you say "I think..." or "I feel..."?

When I really "intuit" something I'll have the answer instantly available and respond with "I know". If I have to make an intuitive guess I always use "I think". Thinking about it, I can't imagine that I would ever relate "I feel" to anything intuitive. However I do use "I feel" occasionally when really accessing my feelings or when responding to a "feely"-type.

[chocky]

Natrushka... I know!

... almost like a whole new level of consciousness has just opened up in my brain.

When I get that "feeling" I can say that I am truly happy.

Yes, and this revelation; this thought-flowering, is for me accompanied by physical sensations, hence I register it as 'feeling' even though it is thought based. To say "I know..." resolves the thought/feeling dilema. I think to "know" expresses the whole intuitive experience, but I wonder why I rarely say "I know..."?

Probably because I weigh up that I may not really "know". I'm a terrible doubter of my own intuition. To say "I know" implies certainty to others that I may be called on to prove. And what has been arrived at through intuition isn't necessarily objectifiable - I can't prove how I know what I know...

which also answers your question, deicruxified.

IjzerenHein, aude, Elizabeth9999: similar perhaps to you guys, when it comes to choosing between saying "I know" "I feel" or "I think", my choice is based upon what I judge has the most likelyhood of getting me understood by my audience (or at least not challenged because I cannot produce "the facts"). Mostly I am talking to people to whom "I think" makes most sense, so that is what I most frequently use. In different circumstances, that would change. Reflecting on it, to say "I know..." "I don't know how I know, but I know..." would most honestly convey my experience, but I have a mini meltdown when I can't prove the facts to others.

It is as though intuition alone is not enough. I think the world requires incontrovertable facts from me - that intuitive knowledge alone cannot validate my voice.

Exploring this topic has helped satisfy for me that I am certainly P dominant. Thanks guys!

[GOD]

Anyone who says "I feel..." needs to have his INTJ membership revoked unless (s)he is saying, e.g., "I feel hungry", "I feel cold", etc. *;)

DB

I think you mean I AM HUNGRY, I AM COLD. ;D

Indecision is not the INTJ. only express your views when you are certain of the requirement.

:P

[GOD]

When you intuit something, do you say "I think..." or "I feel..."?

Intuition is more like a guess that is constantly better than the average.

The more knowledge you have the quicker and more accurate the guesses become.

If you have diverse knowledge then intuition can become innovation.

To me you sense, then you evolve into intuition and then you actualize into innovation.

I don't believe most peoples minds are wired to step up through these gears. Just as some people will never be a top athlete.

[Ijz]

When you intuit something, do you say "I think..." or "I feel..."?

Intuition is more like a guess that is constantly better than the average.

The more knowledge you have the quicker and more accurate the guesses become.

If you have diverse knowledge then intuition can become innovation.

To me you sense, then you evolve into intuition and then you actualize into innovation.

I don't believe most peoples minds are wired to step up through these gears. Just as some people will never be a top athlete.


Wow, words of wisdom :)

I agree completely with ya.

[chocky]

When you intuit something, do you say "I think..." or "I feel..."?

Intuition is more like a guess that is constantly better than the average.

The more knowledge you have the quicker and more accurate the guesses become.

If you have diverse knowledge then intuition can become innovation.

To me you sense, then you evolve into intuition and then you actualize into innovation.

I don't believe most peoples minds are wired to step up through these gears. Just as some people will never be a top athlete.


Wow, words of wisdom :)

I agree completely with ya.

Likewise. Succinctly put.

[Ijz]

It is as though intuition alone is not enough. I think the world requires incontrovertable facts from me - that intuitive knowledge alone cannot validate my voice.
I like to view intuition as abstract knowledge or a pattern. Sometimes you're intuition just tells you that something is right of wrong. But because of the nature of "abstracted knowledge" it is notoriously difficult to put into words. Additionally your conscious brain is simply not equipped for dealing with this kind information that quickly. In this case you can do either two things, trust that your intuition is correct, or try to analyze what you're intuition is telling you (perhaps in order to convince yourself). Only after thinking about it can one validate its intuition. In my experience, my intuition is often correct and I've more of less stopped questioning it.


Exploring this topic has helped satisfy for me that I am certainly P dominant. Thanks guys!

I'm still struggling with this myself, what convinced you?

[chocky]

It is as though intuition alone is not enough. I think the world requires incontrovertable facts from me - that intuitive knowledge alone cannot validate my voice.
I like to view intuition as abstract knowledge or a pattern. Sometimes you're intuition just tells you that something is right of wrong. But because of the nature of "abstracted knowledge" it is notoriously difficult to put into words. Additionally your conscious brain is simply not equipped for dealing with this kind information that quickly. In this case you can do either two things, trust that your intuition is correct, or try to analyze what you're intuition is telling you (perhaps in order to convince yourself). Only after thinking about it can one validate its intuition. In my experience, my intuition is often correct and I've more of less stopped questioning it.


Exploring this topic has helped satisfy for me that I am certainly P dominant. Thanks guys!

I'm still struggling with this myself, what convinced you?



Re. thought and intuition. The one process is "light"; visible (ie. open to examination by others), and the other dark - that is, unknowable. Intuiting is a dark process that no one else can enter - your intuition is uniquely yours. Thought can be translated to others and gain objectifiable credence. Intuition cannot.

This where I stumble. Though I have learnt that my intuitive conclusions are most often right for me, I cannot translate the process and hence cannot gain objectifiable credence. Without this credence I cannot ask nor expect another person to believe me. I cannot prove my "rightness". Unable to objectively verify "rightness" leaves me without certainty in my own conclusions.

I am irredeemably P! Each and every conclusion is open to revision. Nothing is fixed. I suffer the perenial self-doubt seemingly unknown to the INTJ type.

The responses here have really illustrated for me the depth of certainty that the typical J has in the "rightness" of their intuition - rightness that is unrelated to being in possession of all the supporting facts. For a J, being unable to translate their intuitive processes in no way reduces their certainty in them. They do not require objective validation.

This must be the tangible difference between the Ti lead and the Ni lead.

Ni leads have a deep and unshakeable certainty in the "rightness" of their intuition. They don't have to prove it to anyone. I covert this trait!

I need two identical conclusions reached by light and dark processes before I can say I am certain of something, and even then it's a conditional certainty. Imagine always being uncertain of your essential rightness.

I would dearly love to say that I know because I know, and really, really know that no-one was going to turn around and prove me wrong.

My, that was along-winded answer!

[Ijz]

It is as though intuition alone is not enough. I think the world requires incontrovertable facts from me - that intuitive knowledge alone cannot validate my voice.
I like to view intuition as abstract knowledge or a pattern. Sometimes you're intuition just tells you that something is right of wrong. But because of the nature of "abstracted knowledge" it is notoriously difficult to put into words. Additionally your conscious brain is simply not equipped for dealing with this kind information that quickly. In this case you can do either two things, trust that your intuition is correct, or try to analyze what you're intuition is telling you (perhaps in order to convince yourself). Only after thinking about it can one validate its intuition. In my experience, my intuition is often correct and I've more of less stopped questioning it.


Exploring this topic has helped satisfy for me that I am certainly P dominant. Thanks guys!

I'm still struggling with this myself, what convinced you?



Re. thought and intuition. The one process is "light"; visible (ie. open to examination by others), and the other dark - that is, unknowable. Intuiting is a dark process that no one else can enter - your intuition is uniquely yours. Thought can be translated to others and gain objectifiable credence. Intuition cannot.

This where I stumble. Though I have learnt that my intuitive conclusions are most often right for me, I cannot translate the process and hence cannot gain objectifiable credence. Without this credence I cannot ask nor expect another person to believe me. I cannot prove my "rightness". Unable to objectively verify "rightness" leaves me without certainty in my own conclusions.

I am irredeemably P! Each and every conclusion is open to revision. Nothing is fixed. I suffer the perenial self-doubt seemingly unknown to the INTJ type.

The responses here have really illustrated for me the depth of certainty that the typical J has in the "rightness" of their intuition - rightness that is unrelated to being in possession of all the supporting facts. For a J, being unable to translate their intuitive processes in no way reduces their certainty in them. They do not require objective validation.

This must be the tangible difference between the Ti lead and the Ni lead.

Ni leads have a deep and unshakeable certainty in the "rightness" of their intuition. They don't have to prove it to anyone. I covert this trait!

I need two identical conclusions reached by light and dark processes before I can say I am certain of something, and even then it's a conditional certainty. Imagine always being uncertain of your essential rightness.

I would dearly love to say that I know because I know, and really, really know that no-one was going to turn around and prove me wrong.

My, that was along-winded answer!

The more information the better :)

I too think that your intuition is more or less hidden from your consciousness. It has to be, it would probably overload your consciousness completely (most people can only keep track of 7 items at the same time). But I do not think it is some "magical" place. I'd rather believe it has many "pins" for data input but only a few for data output. Since we cannot understand what's going on there, we need to "reinvent the wheel" with our consciousness, This also leads to actual understanding.

I still retain the view that our brains are big "pattern matching" boxes. Whenever patterns become more abstracted it is harder to link it to actual "senses" making it hard to describe.

Don't take my word for any of these things. They are merely metaphors that help me understand. I actually wasted a couple years or my life thinking I could build an AI (damn that INTJ confidence).... I failed miserably.... but gained some insights....

[GOD]

When you intuit something, do you say "I think..." or "I feel..."?

Intuition is more like a guess that is constantly better than the average.

The more knowledge you have the quicker and more accurate the guesses become.

If you have diverse knowledge then intuition can become innovation.

To me you sense, then you evolve into intuition and then you actualize into innovation.

I don't believe most peoples minds are wired to step up through these gears. Just as some people will never be a top athlete.


Wow, words of wisdom :)

I agree completely with ya.

Yeah, It was an intuitive guess... ;D

[Ijz]

When you intuit something, do you say "I think..." or "I feel..."?

Intuition is more like a guess that is constantly better than the average.

The more knowledge you have the quicker and more accurate the guesses become.

If you have diverse knowledge then intuition can become innovation.

To me you sense, then you evolve into intuition and then you actualize into innovation.

I don't believe most peoples minds are wired to step up through these gears. Just as some people will never be a top athlete.


Wow, words of wisdom :)

I agree completely with ya.

Yeah, It was an intuitive guess... ;D

LIES, nothing but LIES,

We've just concluded that intuition is a black box. And now you state that it isn't.

Explain thyself ;D

[Chainsaw Dundee]

Usually "think" unless "feel" is more efficient in relating with whoever Im trying to talk to.

If Im talking about a physical feeling, I'll tend fill up that precious verbal airspace with adjectives instead of saying "I feel". Adds more colour that way.

[Nomad]

As to how intuition "hits" me, it comes as a series of conclusions in sort of a waterfall or cascading windows like on a computer screen. I did this once with a woman I worked with as part of a conversational dare and it completely freaked her out. I told her not only what type of alarm clock she had, but why she had bought it, why she chose her car make and model, the fact that she was born left handed and was forced to use her right. I got so much correct, the only thing that kept her from accusing me of stalking her was that I also knew the reasons for the things I mentioned, her mental constructs behind her actions. That was my most powerful intuition, period. 15 years later, she still says no one knows her like I do. Mostly I just "know". it's been useful for me a number of times. I just wish i could control it...

-Nomad

[deicruxified]

just want to share.

in our language, we have a term for intuiting. unlike in the english language people would use (it depends on the type--t/f) "think" or "feel". the literal translation for us intuiting in daily life conversations is like "i intuit he's got a plan" which if you use the actual term "intuit" in the english language would be awkward. our country's language is intuitive/feeling/platonic. we don't say, "that's a brilliant idea" but "it's a beautiful idea"... everything that sounds good we use "beautiful". so when i think, it's always in english and when i intuit or feel, my language. when i think, it's hard for me to speak and when i feel or intuit, it's hard for me to speak english. i am a bilingual freak at home.

[The Rose]

I usually use "I think" but sometimes use "I feel" for things I am feeling strongly about, or things where people would expect me to use feeling instead of thinking to put forth an opinion.