INTJ Vegetarians

[Llen]

I rarely eat meat, thus I'm assessing whether I should eliminate meat from my diet altogether. Though I've heard various pro-vegetarian arguments, I haven't heard any good arguments against vegetarianism.

Questions: Are you a vegetarian? If so, why? If not, do your best to win me over to the side of the omnivores.

[rwyatt365]

Llen, I don't have any logical, rational, well thought out arguments for eating meat (maybe I should take a few moments to do so). I am defiantly, militantly, and ardently a meat-eater!

I eat meat - preferably red meat, but any will do - because it TASTES GOOD! And I don't care if my arteries get clogged, or my bowels explode, or I die from any number of meat-borne horrors. I will eat meat.

I don't care if doe-eyed Bambi's crowd around my dinner table - if they get too close, they might be next. I only tolerate veggies because I know that I need the balance in my diet. If someone invented a vitamin-filled cow, I would only eat steak for the rest of my days (well, that and ice-cream, and cinnamon biscuits - but that's another story).

BTW - has any vegetarian, or vegan absolutely and definitively proved that vegetables DON'T have feelings? They are living things too, don't their rights matter? Are you practicing Vegetable discrimination in your needless slaughter of plants just to satisfy your wanton desires?

Think about it! :huh: :irked:

[Circe]

My roommate's a veggie, and for her it all boils down to personal belief. I have no problem whatsoever with eating meat- I like the way it tastes and the fact that it came from an animal doesn't bother me (I hunt.)

She cannot stand killing animals and is a bit of a health nut, so she is a vegetarian, which I completely respect.


That being said, I personally don't think that vegetarianism is much healthier than an omnivorous diet with meat in moderation.

[MNRon]

I don't often crave meat, especially beef. I like chicken, usualyy stir fried w/veggies, and I like BBQ ribs. I could go a long time without eating meat, but the alternatives (tofu, etc.) pretty much disgust me and rather than go through the rituals and incantations essential to making them palatable (to me, anyway) I'd rather just eat meat.

I could exist on things like oatmeal, French toast, pancakes, and such for a long time and be happy. When on week long, 500 mile bike trip I rarely touch meat, but lots of bread and pasta -- with butter.

I never touch beans, any shape or form, at all.

[iamnotspock]

I wish I was. You win all the arguments on environment, health, and moral grounds.

BUT I can't survive on mere vegetables. I've tried. It's a blood type thing. B is not suited for a vege diet. A and AB are. So, I'm just not made for it. I need to eat meat.

[OneBadMother]

I am not a vegetarian. Also, if you're becoming a vegetarian on moral grounds, think about how many other problems currently face our environment and our planet. The living conditions of domesticated animals pales in comparison to the actual extinction of wild animals, deforestation, and global warming. Not to mention that going vegan would be the way to go moral-grounds wise. If you're doing it on health grounds, there's a better argument, though I don't see why you should cut meat entirely out of your diet. Red meat provides an excellent source of iron, and fish contains Omega-3 fatty acids. Then again, red meat is often filled with growth hormone and fish with mercury, but crops contain pesticides and whatever things happen to be in stream runoff and groundwater. So it would probably be good to eat organic, and while you're at it reduce waste in your daily life so that the rain doesn't become more acidic and the water table becomes less polluted.

In other words, being vegetarian on environmental, health, and moral grounds is too much hassle because it opens up a whole new can of worms in regards to how far you should go with changing your lifestyle. Simply becoming vegetarian has a negligible impact on most of those things. The most viable reason to become vegetarian without changing anything else is to experiment with new cuisine or because vegetables and tofu are cheaper than a good steak.

[Skitter]

I'm an ethical vegan and have been so for 3 and a half years. Becoming a vegetarian was something I did for health reasons but the more I learned about vegetarianism, the more I realized I was contributing to a system based on the pain and deaths of billions of living creatures every year (humans included). I love and respect animals but I understand that not all people do. I actually take a lot of crap for my beliefs despite the fact that I don't go around trying to convert people to my lifestyle. I believe ardently in "live and let live".

Personally, I think the most persuasive argument for the veg*n lifestyle is the fact that most of the produce grown in the U.S. gets fed to the cows, pigs, chickens and other farm animals that people eat. And those animals only feed a fraction of the people who could have eaten well on the produce instead. Meat-eating contributes to the world hunger problem and I find it sad that so many animals are being killed needlessly and so many people are dying of malnutrition because people are either too apathetic or uninformed or whatever to change their eating habits.

I'm not suggesting that all people go veg*n. Just reducing your meat intake makes an impact. Of course if you rarely eat meat anyway, I can't see how going vegetarian would really change your own lifestyle that much. It'd probably be an easy transition. But it's up to you! :)

[OneBadMother]

That's actually the best argument I've heard for veganism thus far. But if the amount of livestock to feed goes down, would the amount of produce grown decrease accordingly, still leaving a food deficit for people who need it? Though it would be better for the environment in that less farmland would be used and thus wildlife can reclaim the land over time, provided that we don't simply use it for residential purposes instead.

[Skitter]

Good question. I'm not sure how that would pan out but hopefully the farmers who grow the produce will realize that by the general population eating less meat, people will automatically need more produce to fill out their diets. As a vegan I know that fruits and veggies are way easier to digest than meat, thus I eat way more than anyone else in my family none of whom are even vegetarian (aside from my sis who is also vegan) and I'm still the healthiest of the bunch. I think produce would still be in demand, the supply would just be rerouted. Just my theory... :)

[narusmummy]

Llen, only you can make this decision. I'm not sure how wise it is to base what you do on the arguments of others. (Of course, that is no disrespect to anyone who has commented and it will be fun to see the debate get going!)

I was a vegetarian for almost ten years, but I'm a ridiculously fussy eater and don't actually like vegetables(!). As a result, I became quite ill, nothing serious, just had little energy and often caught colds. The doctor diagnosed me as slightly anaemic and lacking in protein. It was then that I realised I had to sort out my incredibly limited diet. I now eat chicken and turkey, a little fish on occasion, but still can't face eating red meat. Luckily though there are so many products like Quorn that it's not a problem. I still take an iron supplement each day just to make sure my iron levels don't slip again.

So, my only advice to you is; as long as you have a balanced & varied diet without any meat then great, go for it. If you think your diet might suffer, then just consider it a little more. After all, we are built to eat meat; thats what our incisors are for, and why we have such efficient digestive systems!

With all the meat free options today, you should be able to get on just fine, but the decision is yours and yours alone.

;D

[brewmaster]

Simply put, eating meat is what advanced the evolution of our species to what it is today, without it our brains would not be nearly as advanced.

I would rather not be counter-evolutionary. Besides I am the ultimate omnivore, I will eat nearly anything, and like nearly everything.

[Skitter]

Simply put, eating meat is what advanced the evolution of our species to what it is today, without it our brains would not be nearly as advanced.

I would rather not be counter-evolutionary.

I think you might be attributing a little too much to a meat-based diet. After all, there are many species which eat meat, but whose brains didn't evolve to the degree that ours did. Alligators, for instance, have been around since the time of the dinosaurs and are pretty much the same creatures as their primitive ancestors.

As for being counter-evolutionary, didn't crop-growing come after the hunter-gatherer phase of human evolution?

[brewmaster]

I had a feeling it would go there. I should have mentioned it was the tool making ability to get to marrow from other animals kills, combined with the extra nutrition and fat content (your brain is a lot of fat) of marrow and brain tissue that led to the advances (thats the theory at least, and I have no evidence to say it's wrong).

Second part: yes but animal domestication came at the same time (roughly) so the point is moot.

[Jgib5328]

I rarely eat meat, thus I'm assessing whether I should eliminate meat from my diet altogether. Though I've heard various pro-vegetarian arguments, I haven't heard any good arguments against vegetarianism.

Questions: Are you a vegetarian? If so, why? If not, do your best to win me over to the side of the omnivores.

You seem so want to be a vegetarian just because you can be, which I think is a terrible reason. Your reasoning seems like, "Well I don't really eat meat that often, so why not become a vegetarian?" That is the wrong reason to become a vegetarian. You probably won't get everything you need in your diet from just eating vegetables and whatever anyways. Plus it's not like the animals that are being slaughtered are human beings, they are just animals. A lot of people seem to think that animals have thoughts and feelings like humans do. While it may be true that they share some similarities, it's far more primitive. So killing an animal isn't as morally wrong as killing a human. Plus you not eating an animal, just means that someone else is going to eat that animal, so your moral action makes no difference in the world, because no matter what you do, that animal will die and be devoured by the human kind. You can make the argument that, "at least I will feel better about not eating the animal", but what does that matter in the scheme of things. It's not like you changed anything. And if none of those arguments worked on you, Hitler was a vegetarian. So if you too become a vegetarian, you will be in the same class as Hitler and will be evil and what not.

[E148]

Ethics and Veganism


Some have said that they would not eat a lobster because of the cruel way in which a live lobster is cooked—boiled alive. They think this because it ‘screams’.

Lobsters have no vocal cords so they cannot scream. This is steam escaping from their shells, as the water is turns into steam. Yes if a human were thrown into boiling water he/she would scream, but lobsters?


The premise that animals have the same needs and desires as humans is totally wrong.

Animals do not have desires or expectations. They do not think. They react to a stimulus, instinct.


People who project human traits onto animals are just plain wrong. While it is true that animals feel some pain theirs is nothing like a human’s ability to feel pain.

To say that because they feel pain they therefore must be our equal and have the same rights as humans is non sequitur.

They, those at PETA, for example, say you would not eat a dog so why eat a chicken or cow? A lot of people in the world do eat dog and consider them delicacies. They also eat monkey brains. This is cultural bias (Cultural Relativism) on the part of those, PETA and others, who ask the question above. I do not eat squid or whale but to say that nobody should eat meat because of that is ridiculous. We are omnivorous beings but it does not mean we have to eat everything on the planet.

This may be diatribe against PETA but they are the most notable organization that espouses that animals and people have the same rights.


If PETA where either PETH (People for the Ethical Treatment of Humans) or PET (People for Ethical Treatment) I might support at least some of their work.

PETA and others have not convinced me that animals have rights at all, let alone, equal to the rights of humans.

So, in my opinion, do not go vegan for ethical considerations.



Point two, raising animals cause people to starve to death. The fact that giving feed to cows, for example, does not mean much. There is grain sitting in silos that the government pays for so that it artificially inflates the price of corn, as an example. This is to make it profitable for the farmer. They also pay some farmers not to farm at all to reduce competition and keep supplies low.

I think that the grain used to feed cattle is not top notch and probably would not be fed to humans at all, if memory serves me.

Point is not that we feed cattle and poultry instead of humans. It is governments around the world who mess it up, including the USA, and even the countries where these people are starving. Their governments make sure that they do not get the food, medicine, etc.

Again not a valid ethical point. Jump on the governments of the world and not be against eating meat, for that reason.




Some of my thoughts!

[Jgib5328]

Ethics and Veganism


Some have said that they would not eat a lobster because of the cruel way in which a live lobster is cooked—boiled alive. They think this because it ‘screams’.

Lobsters have no vocal cords so they cannot scream. This is steam escaping from their shells, as the water is turns into steam. Yes if a human were thrown into boiling water he/she would scream, but lobsters?


The premise that animals have the same needs and desires as humans is totally wrong.

Animals do not have desires or expectations. They do not think. They react to a stimulus, instinct.


People who project human traits onto animals are just plain wrong. While it is true that animals feel some pain theirs is nothing like a human’s ability to feel pain.

To say that because they feel pain they therefore must be our equal and have the same rights as humans is non sequitur.

They, those at PETA, for example, say you would not eat a dog so why eat a chicken or cow? A lot of people in the world do eat dog and consider them delicacies. They also eat monkey brains. This is cultural bias (Cultural Relativism) on the part of those, PETA and others, who ask the question above. I do not eat squid or whale but to say that nobody should eat meat because of that is ridiculous. We are omnivorous beings but it does not mean we have to eat everything on the planet.

This may be diatribe against PETA but they are the most notable organization that espouses that animals and people have the same rights.


If PETA where either PETH (People for the Ethical Treatment of Humans) or PET (People for Ethical Treatment) I might support at least some of their work.

PETA and others have not convinced me that animals have rights at all, let alone, equal to the rights of humans.

So, in my opinion, do not go vegan for ethical considerations.



Point two, raising animals cause people to starve to death. The fact that giving feed to cows, for example, does not mean much. There is grain sitting in silos that the government pays for so that it artificially inflates the price of corn, as an example. This is to make it profitable for the farmer. They also pay some farmers not to farm at all to reduce competition and keep supplies low.

I think that the grain used to feed cattle is not top notch and probably would not be fed to humans at all, if memory serves me.

Point is not that we feed cattle and poultry instead of humans. It is governments around the world who mess it up, including the USA, and even the countries where these people are starving. Their governments make sure that they do not get the food, medicine, etc.

Again not a valid ethical point. Jump on the governments of the world and not be against eating meat, for that reason.




Some of my thoughts!

Great points, I hate when people get the idea in their head that animals think like humans. They think that their cat or something is just like them and has feelings that we humans have. Our brain is so far superior to a cat and any other animal, therefore most things that we do, an animal could never do because it is beyond them. Most people don't get this concept.

[burazekun]

Well I'm not going to argue what you should eat. But I will say that meat contains vital complete protiens your body needs. However you can easily make it by as a vegitarian, but you have to make sure you pair your foods right as you wont find whole protiens in the vegitarian world. However as an example, beans and rice will provide you with a whole protien and a cheap meal.

[brewmaster]

I'd eat a dog. I am not opposed to eating anything. I did find out last night that I will never eat beef liver again. Holy crap that stuff is nasty, the smell is still in my head.

[rwyatt365]

I won’t go point-for-point, but I disagree with some of things said in your post E148. Don’t get me wrong, I am a meat-lover and I don’t intend on changing a thing. I would, however like to address something that you said. So…

(Other) animals do not have the same needs and desires as humans, true IMO, to differentiate humans from animals is incorrect, no matter how we slice or dice it we ARE animals. Since we don’t have the capacity to know what any other being besides ourselves is, or is not, experiencing one cannot make a blanket statement like “…theirs is nothing like a human’s ability to feel pain.”, that is an assumption which cannot be substantiated. I don’t advocate “animal rights” per se, I just don’t think that they are that much our inferior as a different species.

I do agree that the livestock of the world are not depleting resources that might be better used for human purposes.. in fact, I would contend that it is the other way around – humans are depleting resources that might be better used for animal purposes. Are all the vegans/vegetarians/??? burning wood-fired stoves? Disowning their iPods? Cycling to work?

[Rick]

If someone invented a vitamin-filled cow, I would only eat steak for the rest of my days (well, that and ice-cream, and cinnamon biscuits - but that's another story).

I had to laugh at this. This is so true of me, too.

By the way, there is a word for part of the discussion here. When someone attributes human emotion and/or form to other animals it is called anthropomorphism. PETA is big on doing it.

[Jgib5328]

I won’t go point-for-point, but I disagree with some of things said in your post E148. Don’t get me wrong, I am a meat-lover and I don’t intend on changing a thing. I would, however like to address something that you said. So…

(Other) animals do not have the same needs and desires as humans, true IMO, to differentiate humans from animals is incorrect, no matter how we slice or dice it we ARE animals. Since we don’t have the capacity to know what any other being besides ourselves is, or is not, experiencing one cannot make a blanket statement like “…theirs is nothing like a human’s ability to feel pain.”, that is an assumption which cannot be substantiated. I don’t advocate “animal rights” per se, I just don’t think that they are that much our inferior as a different species.

I do agree that the livestock of the world are not depleting resources that might be better used for human purposes.. in fact, I would contend that it is the other way around – humans are depleting resources that might be better used for animal purposes. Are all the vegans/vegetarians/??? burning wood-fired stoves? Disowning their iPods? Cycling to work?

We aren't just animals, we are the highest form of animal on this planet. We were blessed with high powered brains that give us more than their inferior animal brains. The animal brain is so far primitive to ours that you couldn't call them equal. We are inherently better. We can do things that an animal could never comprehend. Humans are special, to say we aren't would be foolish. How many animals can write philosophy? How many animals can invent? Most animals can't even think. Animals just live through life reacting to stimuli and their instincts. Animals have no sense of higher purpose like a human, all they do is exist and try to further their population.

[ElstonGunn]

Don't mice and rabbits get run over by harvesting combines? That probably hurts. And putting a wheat field where they used to make their homes probably sucks for them, too.

I'm just saying that "moral vegetarian" is a misnomer, unless you're growing your own food (organically).

[brewmaster]

Organic, that word. Organic food is nothing more than a marketing ploy to prey on the F in people. Scientifically its nonsense.

[Lagawrd]

Well here is something that you might want to look into.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[Jgib5328]

Well here is something that you might want to look into.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Maddox has fallen from grace, he never updates and when he does, it sucks.

[Lagawrd]

Yea, he sold out. But I dont blame him, about 90% of the people who read his sites be it haters or lovers are idiotic. He wrote a book... it wasn't as good, it was just a summary of his website.

He might just be very busy in school, he is a math a major you know... that needs extensive practice and drilling.

[Jgib5328]

Yea, he sold out. But I dont blame him, about 90% of the people who read his sites be it haters or lovers are idiotic. He wrote a book... it wasn't as good, it was just a summary of his website.

He might just be very busy in school, he is a math a major you know... that needs extensive practice and drilling.

I thought he was well out of school and he used to work as a software engineer or something, then he quit. Did he go back to school?

[Lagawrd]

Mmm, I am not sure. I do not know that much about him.

[thaddeus6th]

Your choice, obviously, but it makes sense to be an omnivore. You don't have incisors and canines to hunt cabbages. There are a small number of substances, such as vitamin K, you can't get from vegetables, so if you go down that route find out what they are so you can get the right supplements.

Besides, meat is far tastier than vegetables.

[bucolic_]

I think you might be attributing a little too much to a meat-based diet. After all, there are many species which eat meat, but whose brains didn't evolve to the degree that ours did. Alligators, for instance, have been around since the time of the dinosaurs and are pretty much the same creatures as their primitive ancestors.

As for being counter-evolutionary, didn't crop-growing come after the hunter-gatherer phase of human evolution?

I don't think he's saying that eating meat is a sufficient cause for higher brain function.

And yes, the agricultural revolution came after our hunter-gatherer phase, but are you sure the agricultural revolution was truly beneficial for us? In many ways it was beneficial, especially towards our societal evolution, but in terms of our actual health, it's not so clear.

As to the OP : I'm an omnivore, and I will most likely always be one. I understand the "moral" reasons for being a vegetarian, but I personally don't buy into them.

Not to mention, I personally think that it is most likely healthier to eat a good omnivore diet than a good vegetarian diet. I use "good" because studies that show vegetarian diets are superior for health, often compare vegetarians to the general populace, and we already know what the average modern human's diet is like.

Nutrition is a complex subject, and I only have a minor grasp of it, and realize that my opinion may change in the future, but it would seem to me that a health-conscious omnivore would be healthier than a health-conscious vegetarian.

[SeaCzar]

I am a member of PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals). I would never go vegan. As a species, we're born omnivores.

[ArchonAlarion]

Maddox has fallen from grace, he never updates and when he does, it sucks.

My god you're right!

Anyway I disagree that vegi's have the moral highground.

Taken from an objectivist/libertarian stand point, you can't initiate force or fraud on another sapient/rational lifeform. Non sapient or irrational lifeforms need not be included because they are not capble of following this principle consistently in turn.

If it was immoral to initiate coercion or fraud against ALL life, than you would die of starvation (no eating) and abortion of fetus's would be immoral.

Of course, I believe that non-sapience and sapience aren't black and white, its a scale with degrees, which is why we don't need to feel bad about stepping on grass or swatting a mosquito, but dolphins and gorillas should receive greater respect.

[Aoiluna]

My reasons for being a "vegetarian" are strictly health reasons. I say "vegetarian" because I also eat fish and sometimes eat meat for special occasions only. There are many valid reasons to be a vegetarian for health reasons, or even to restrict your intake of meat. Protein can be acquired by other means; even if it can get expensive. You actually acquire more energy eating plants than animals due to the loss of energy through the trophic levels. I have a history of heart problems in my family, so not eating meat is probably a good move. Also, I never really liked meat that much in the first place.

As far as being vegan goes, I dont drink milk and limit my dairy intake in general.

Did you know that humans are the only animals that drink milk as adults? Milk is supposed to be given when youre developing as a baby to help you grow as big as possible as fast as possible. We are also the only species that drinks another species milk. I think its disgusting anyways.

[yondyr]

The tropics here discourage heavy meal consumption so most rely on fruits and vegetables with fish and a little meat. Sadly most green/temperate climate vegetables cost more than meat though fruits are in plentiful supply -just how many free bananas, pineapples, papayas etc can one eat?.
But all in all, were I tempted to any kind of vegetarianism... bacon would do me in.

[Wapiti]

Are you a vegetarian?
No, I love meat.

If not, do your best to win me over to the side of the omnivores.

My best attempt to win you over would include:
T Bone
New York Strip
Rib Eye
Filet

MMMM gotta have my steak.

[rebelinsidebr]

Personally, I think the most persuasive argument for the veg*n lifestyle is the fact that most of the produce grown in the U.S. gets fed to the cows, pigs, chickens and other farm animals that people eat. And those animals only feed a fraction of the people who could have eaten well on the produce instead. Meat-eating contributes to the world hunger problem and I find it sad that so many animals are being killed needlessly and so many people are dying of malnutrition because people are either too apathetic or uninformed or whatever to change their eating habits.

There's no such thing as "world hunger problem" caused by lack of food. The only problem is poverty. Food get wasted by the thousands of tonelades every single day (no source on this, but I can guarantee a lot of food go to garbage because there was no buyer to them. It just make sense, right?).

I myself am a meat-eater because I feel like to. If I have desires to eat meat, why deny? It's nature. My body knows better than me what I need, and science keep confirming this. What was the last time you went to the bathroom and thought it was better not to piss because it could happen something bad to you? Your body says you have to piss, then you have to piss!

Which all boils to: live and let live. Do what you are up to, what your body demands. Just trust it.

[Nausved]

The premise that animals have the same needs and desires as humans is totally wrong.

Animals do not have desires or expectations. They do not think. They react to a stimulus, instinct.

I am curious as to how you came to this conclusion. The latest scientific literature suggests that mammals and birds, at least, are sentient. They can think, plan, and reason.

If you're interested in learning more about some of these studies, let me know. I might be able to send you a few PDFs, or at the very least some abstracts.

People who project human traits onto animals are just plain wrong. While it is true that animals feel some pain theirs is nothing like a human’s ability to feel pain.

I agree. Projecting human traits onto animals is just as wrong as denying human traits from animals. We all (including yourself) must strive to be objective about these matters.

I, personally, suspect that most mammals (and probably other "higher" animals as well) experience exquisite pain. After all, their brains resemble ours structurally, and they respond to pain in ways that are very similar to the way that we respond. Of course, I can't know for certain that they experience pain the way we do, but our observations are certainly consistent with such a hypothesis.

And from an evolutionary perspective, pain plays an absolutely vital role. I suspect that prey animals (which happen to be the animals we usually eat) have particularly substantial pain systems, for the simple fact that death and injury are much more pressing matters for prey species. This hypothesis is consistent with the tendency of children to experience more pain than adults; children, after all, are at greater risk of death and injury. I would even go so far as to suggest that, from a purely "painful" point of view, it might be more cruel to hurt a chicken than an adult human.

If you choose to base your moral system on reducing pain, you would be perfectly reasonable to adopt a vegetarian diet.

[yondyr]

Sentient or not, for good eating we might treat them with TLC prior to slaughter.[There are a variety of environmental conditions which can cause stress in animals. Some of these include extremes in temperature, humidity, light, sound, and confinement. Other stressors are excitement, fatigue, pain, hunger, thirst. Movement to unfamiliar surroundings can also cause stress in animals. Stress before slaughter can cause undesirable effects on the end quality of meat such as pale, soft, exudative (PSE) meat and dark firm dry (DFD) meat.]

[bucolic_]

I myself am a meat-eater because I feel like to. If I have desires to eat meat, why deny? It's nature. My body knows better than me what I need, and science keep confirming this. What was the last time you went to the bathroom and thought it was better not to piss because it could happen something bad to you? Your body says you have to piss, then you have to piss!

Which all boils to: live and let live. Do what you are up to, what your body demands. Just trust it.

I don't know if this is a valid axiom to follow. If it were the case that people ate what their bodies needed, why is it that people crave sweets, and other non-essential food items?


If you choose to base your moral system on reducing pain, you would be perfectly reasonable to adopt a vegetarian diet.

Or to slaughtering animals in the most painless way possible, although I will concede that it's really impossible to know whether or not your grocery store meat was slaughtered humanely.

[Nausved]

Or to slaughtering animals in the most painless way possible, although I will concede that it's really impossible to know whether or not your grocery store meat was slaughtered humanely.

That's why I'm strongly in favor of growing your own meat. Or, barring that, at least knowing specifically where your meat comes from. That has the added advantage of supporting local family farmers/ranchers.

The other side of the issue is the environment. Environmental destruction deals considerable harm to wildlife, and wild animals are surely just as prone to suffering as domesticated animals.

Agriculture is one of the leading causes of habitat destruction. Unfortunately, it is unavoidable for such a large population. However, we could seek to at least reduce the amount of land that goes toward crop production, and reducing meat consumption is an important part of that. (Another important part is eliminating subsidies to agribusiness and disempowering agriculture lobbyists.)

[brewmaster]

I, personally, suspect that most mammals (and probably other "higher" animals as well) experience exquisite pain. After all, their brains resemble ours structurally, and they respond to pain in ways that are very similar to the way that we respond. Of course, I can't know for certain that they experience pain the way we do, but our observations are certainly consistent with such a hypothesis.

Yes, if you ever had to kill an animal personally you know very well they experience an extreme amount of pain (when it goes wrong is how you find this out, killing isn't always a very 'clean' endeavor).


Agriculture is one of the leading causes of habitat destruction. Unfortunately, it is unavoidable for such a large population. However, we could seek to at least reduce the amount of land that goes toward crop production, and reducing meat consumption is an important part of that. (Another important part is eliminating subsidies to agribusiness and disempowering agriculture lobbyists.)

Totally disagree with the first part of this paragraph, urban sprawl is [I]the[I] leading cause by far. Even though I work in agribusiness, I have to agree with the latter part of your paragraph, the profit margins have swung in recent times making the subsidies counterproductive.

[Nausved]

Totally disagree with the first part of this paragraph, urban sprawl is [I]the[I] leading cause by far. Even though I work in agribusiness, I have to agree with the latter part of your paragraph, the profit margins have swung in recent times making the subsidies counterproductive.

Urban sprawl is pretty awful. I still think agriculture is up there, though. Farmed land contributes about as much to ecosystem functioning as deserts do, and pesticides and fertilizers only worsen the effect. Acre for acre, urban sprawl is certainly worse—but more of the world is covered in cropland than urban land, so I suspect that the net effect of agriculture is probably on par with that of urban sprawl. But, admittedly, I currently have no data to back up this hypothesis.

Perhaps a better solution than subsidies would be to eliminate sales tax on non-luxury food items...? But it might have the same end result, ultimately. I'll have to think about this.

[Lucid]

I won’t go point-for-point, but I disagree with some of things said in your post E148. Don’t get me wrong, I am a meat-lover and I don’t intend on changing a thing. I would, however like to address something that you said. So…

(Other) animals do not have the same needs and desires as humans, true IMO, to differentiate humans from animals is incorrect, no matter how we slice or dice it we ARE animals. Since we don’t have the capacity to know what any other being besides ourselves is, or is not, experiencing one cannot make a blanket statement like “…theirs is nothing like a human’s ability to feel pain.”, that is an assumption which cannot be substantiated. I don’t advocate “animal rights” per se, I just don’t think that they are that much our inferior as a different species.

Agreed. I eat meat and I wear leather. But I think that while animals certainly don't have the capacity for rational thought, or the variety or complexity of emotions that humans do, I think it's rather strange to say that they just react to stimulus. Isn't that, in a sense, what we do? The difference being that we analyze said stimulus. But animals do think to an extent and they do have problem solving capabilities. And I've seen them react to pain. Saying that they don't feel pain and don't think at all is contrary to all observation.

Besides, if we are a higher life form than they are, don't we have a responsibility to treat them with respect and make sure they suffer as little as possible?

Having said all that, I don't see it as bad if a wolf eats a rabbit. That's what wolves and rabbits do. Likewise, humans are omnivores. I don't see it as bad if a human eats a cow. Or a rabbit.

But, as omnivores, we do have a certain amount of choice in what we eat. So I wouldn't say that vegetarianism or veganism are wrong either. It can be hard to get all the protein you need and you have to pay a lot of attention to your diet (is what I understand about it). And it's definitely not for me. But I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

[deicruxified]

speaking out of experience (i tried lacto-vegan for 2 years)... it has some benefits... i feel lighter. but then as you become physically active, milk or cheese or soya cannot give the energy meat can... so to balance stuff i eat red meat a day before the activity date. but then i never liked the taste of red meat because i find it too greasy and it has an after taste...

[rwyatt365]

speaking out of experience (i tried lacto-vegan for 2 years)... it has some benefits... i feel lighter. but then as you become physically active, milk or cheese or soya cannot give the energy meat can... so to balance stuff i eat red meat a day before the activity date. but then i never liked the taste of red meat because i find it too greasy and it has an after taste...
...yeah. Deelicious! ;D

[Scorne]

I've always enjoyed a burger or sausage, but that's because it looks neatly prepared (within exception) but meals such as spagetti bolognase or lamb straight from the bone just completly ruins my appetite.

As of recently I've felt very sick and I keep visualizing the way food is prepared/slaughtered for the dinner table and the overall life of that animal. The past week I've almost removed meat from my diet and I feel so much better for doing so, no more feeling sick (I think it's just all in the mind though).

[rebelinsidebr]

I don't know if this is a valid axiom to follow. If it were the case that people ate what their bodies needed, why is it that people crave sweets, and other non-essential food items?

Well.. even animals eat what is non essential. Have you ever tried to feed candies to your dog? BTW, what your body needs and what yours gluttony demands is another history... they're not mutually exclusive.

And about craving for sweets.. I don't know the answer, that's what the lose-weight-with-just-these-999-bucks-pills industry wants to know too, right?

[bucolic_]

Well.. even animals eat what is non essential. Have you ever tried to feed candies to your dog? BTW, what your body needs and what yours gluttony demands is another history... they're not mutually exclusive.

And about craving for sweets.. I don't know the answer, that's what the lose-weight-with-just-these-999-bucks-pills industry wants to know too, right?

My point exactly, if even animals eat non-essential food items, then can you really base what a good diet is on what your body seems to tell you it needs?

[vkut79]

Our bodies' instinctive diet programs are outdated. Humans haven't been able to adapt to the great diversity of food products that have appeared only as the result of recent technology, so we find ourselves really wanting to eat sugar when we only actually need a small amount of it.





vkut79 added to this post, 10 minutes and 46 seconds later...

I've always enjoyed a burger or sausage, but that's because it looks neatly prepared (within exception) but meals such as spagetti bolognase or lamb straight from the bone just completly ruins my appetite.

As of recently I've felt very sick and I keep visualizing the way food is prepared/slaughtered for the dinner table and the overall life of that animal. The past week I've almost removed meat from my diet and I feel so much better for doing so, no more feeling sick (I think it's just all in the mind though).

You're just not used to the idea of eating animals. In a lot of our culture the actual deaths of the animals are hidden from view, and all we see is the steak. Many people grow up without fully realizing this fact of life, while simultaneously being taught to love and care for animals (to have empathy for them, as if they were people) When suddenly the truth is laid out clearly before them, they cannot resolve their love for animals with their love for the food. Its an emotional conflict.

A lot of this stems from the way our economies are divided up between urban and rural areas. You wouldn't see many vegetarians in rural farming areas.

[ssfanatic]

I dont care about killing animals (for a purpose, not just slaughter). Survival of the fittest. And i like the taste of meat. Thats all the reason i need.

[Thecitywithin]

I am surprised that even INTJ's argue the same arguments about eating meat. Science shows the meat eating is not nessecary. People still do it. Meat has cholesterol, people still eat it and have a heart attack, Smoking causes cancer and other problems, people still smoke any way. Drinking alchohol causes health risks like throat cancer, people still do it.
I would think INTJ's would take a more scientific approach than most, I guess I am wrong if people only argue on grounds of an emotional response that being: tastes good for eating meat.

I used to love meat too but I changed when I found out that meat has a lot of negative heath risks. Eating only plant protiens doesn't have any negative health risks other than being more challenging to get all the protein and vitamins a human body needs. I like the challenge others don't.

To all those meat lovers that want meat for muscle:

I used to weight 145 at 5'7"
In two years, 170 and only 5% body fat.
You can be big and "beefy" on a vegetarian diet its just more work.

[bucolic_]

I am surprised that even INTJ's argue the same arguments about eating meat. Science shows the meat eating is not nessecary. People still do it. Meat has cholesterol, people still eat it and have a heart attack, Smoking causes cancer and other problems, people still smoke any way. Drinking alchohol causes health risks like throat cancer, people still do it.
I would think INTJ's would take a more scientific approach than most, I guess I am wrong if people only argue on grounds of an emotional response that being: tastes good for eating meat.

I used to love meat too but I changed when I found out that meat has a lot of negative heath risks. Eating only plant protiens doesn't have any negative health risks other than being more challenging to get all the protein and vitamins a human body needs. I like the challenge others don't.

I never have justified my meat eating on an emotional response, I'm of the opinion that a "good" diet with meat is better than a "good" vegetarian diet, and it has nothing to do with meat being tasty (though I agree with that assessment).

[jtni]

I am a vegetarian and have been all my life.
I am an INTJ
I am a corn farmer who raises enough corn to feed enough cows to feed 7500 people enough beef they could eat a steak a day for a year.

I see nothing wrong with eating meat. I don't because I was raised that way and it would feel like I was betraying what I am if I changed. Even so that is a personal reason and not one for anyone but me.

Why be a vegetarian?

Vegetarians live longer.

The impact on the environment is significantly less.

We could feed 10 times the number of people we do now if we didn't run the food through the cow, pig, or chicken first.

Much of the land that is used to raise animal feed now could be returned to nature and we still have enough food for everyone but the economic change would be tremendous/

Why not be a vegetarian?

Because people want to eat meat. They like the taste of it. There is a cultural based belief that it makes a person stronger and healthier. Some people would fight to be able to eat meat. However, most of the people that have that belief were raised in a culture where meat is plentiful. Change the culture and what they are taught from birth and the belief would be different.

There is plenty of food, water, soil, etc. to continue to produce meat for a very long time and for many more people than the planet has now. Most of the problems that one sees in the press with food production, soil loss, water shortages, are not correct. Water is a renewable resource.

Eat your meat if you like but you will have more money, live longer, and have less of an impact on the environment if you don't.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I am a vegetarian and have been all my life.
I am an INTJ
I am a corn farmer who raises enough corn to feed enough cows to feed 7500 people enough beef they could eat a steak a day for a year.

I see nothing wrong with eating meat. I don't because I was raised that way and it would feel like I was betraying what I am if I changed. Even so that is a personal reason and not one for anyone but me.

Why be a vegetarian?

Vegetarians live longer.

The impact on the environment is significantly less.

We could feed 10 times the number of people we do now if we didn't run the food through the cow, pig, or chicken first.

Much of the land that is used to raise animal feed now could be returned to nature and we still have enough food for everyone but the economic change would be tremendous/

Why not be a vegetarian?

Because people want to eat meat. They like the taste of it. There is a cultural based belief that it makes a person stronger and healthier. Some people would fight to be able to eat meat. However, most of the people that have that belief were raised in a culture where meat is plentiful. Change the culture and what they are taught from birth and the belief would be different.

There is plenty of food, water, soil, etc. to continue to produce meat for a very long time and for many more people than the planet has now. Most of the problems that one sees in the press with food production, soil loss, water shortages, are not correct. Water is a renewable resource.

Eat your meat if you like but you will have more money, live longer, and have less of an impact on the environment if you don't.
I've played with the idea of becoming a vegetarian on occasion. Do you have particular diet recommendations? Are there things to be concerned with as far as health issues?

Your argument for vegetarianism sounds logical to me.

[jtni]

I've played with the idea of becoming a vegetarian on occasion. Do you have particular diet recommendations? Are there things to be concerned with as far as health issues?

Your argument for vegetarianism sounds logical to me.


Recommendations? Find a spouse that likes to cook and read up on all of the nutritional information.

[Jgib5328]

I am surprised that even INTJ's argue the same arguments about eating meat. Science shows the meat eating is not nessecary. People still do it. Meat has cholesterol, people still eat it and have a heart attack, Smoking causes cancer and other problems, people still smoke any way. Drinking alchohol causes health risks like throat cancer, people still do it.
I would think INTJ's would take a more scientific approach than most, I guess I am wrong if people only argue on grounds of an emotional response that being: tastes good for eating meat.

I used to love meat too but I changed when I found out that meat has a lot of negative heath risks. Eating only plant protiens doesn't have any negative health risks other than being more challenging to get all the protein and vitamins a human body needs. I like the challenge others don't.

To all those meat lovers that want meat for muscle:

I used to weight 145 at 5'7"
In two years, 170 and only 5% body fat.
You can be big and "beefy" on a vegetarian diet its just more work.

Not everything has to be explained my logic. Plus I eat meat because it tastes good, there is nothing wrong with that. If you want to be pedantic, then I can make a logical argument out of it. If I get pleasure out of something, then I should do it as long as there aren't significant side effects. I don't eat meat a lot, I eat a grilled chicken sandwich every day for dinner and I have perfect health. You aren't going to get high cholesterol or have a heart attack from eating a little bit of meat. So it isn't a logical argument to say that you should eat no meat. Meat tastes better than vegetables. Eating a little meat won't do you any harm, thus I eat meat, I'm sure most people feel this way too.

You can get beefy even without eating meat if you take protein powder, it isn't anything special. I have 3 scoops of it every weekday and it's my main source of protein. Most serious weight lifters take protein powder and use it as their main source of protein.

[dandylion]

Animal products are not the enemy. Eating them from time to time isn't going to harm anyone's health. If you're worried about your meat being chocked-full of steroids, hormones, antibiotics, etc., go for organic, grass-fed, free-range, GMO-free animal products which are naturally leaner and more beneficial than ordinary animal products found in the supermarket. These options are readily available; you just need to know where to look. Check out these resources if you don't know where to start (though more and more supermarkets are beginning to offer options for organic, grass-fed/free-range animal products):
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Vegetarians may live longer, but it's probably not just because they avoid animal products--they may be more inclined to practice a healthier lifestyle in general (not smoking/drinking excessively, exercising more). You can still be healthy and eat meat. Just look at the Mediterranean and Asian diets. The key is to not have your whole diet be significantly composed by animal products.

People shouldn't cut animal products from their diet but instead eat them in moderation as well as eat a variety of other foods, and all of these foods must be as natural and high-quality as possible.




Eating only plant protiens doesn't have any negative health risks other than being more challenging to get all the protein and vitamins a human body needs. I like the challenge others don't.


There could be several beneficial components in animal products that have yet to be discovered. You're only hurting yourself in the long run. For instance, conjugated linoleic acid (CLA), which can help fight cancer and reduce clogged arteries among other advantages, is abundant in grass-fed animals; it was only discovered in the last decade. What else are we going to find in the future?




I am a corn farmer who raises enough corn to feed enough cows to feed 7500 people enough beef they could eat a steak a day for a year.

Now, why would you want to feed them corn and grains? That's just straight up ridiculous. Cows should not be eating corn and other grains. They should be able to roam around freely to their hearts' content in pastures of pesticide-free grass. Sure, it's cheaper to keep the cows on feedlots and stuff them with grains, but it just diminishes the quality of the beef. Commercially-grown cows are more likely to be fattier and unhealthier, which is why people think eating meat is so bad. It's all about how the animals are raised. Eat quality grass-fed meat and you'll be just fine.


The impact on the environment is significantly less.

Much of the land that is used to raise animal feed now could be returned to nature and we still have enough food for everyone but the economic change would be tremendous/

There is plenty of food, water, soil, etc. to continue to produce meat for a very long time and for many more people than the planet has now. Most of the problems that one sees in the press with food production, soil loss, water shortages, are not correct. Water is a renewable resource.

I'm not sure I understand you. What exactly is "the impact on the environment" that you speak of? And how would "returning" the land to nature be beneficial to the economy? Please clarify.

[Lucan]

I have been a vegetarian for 12 years. My health is better now than it was when I did eat meat. I became one due to health reasons and it works for me. Anybody wanting to look at this option should do it because they want to not due to pressure. Just about everything in moderation is fine. Its when you over do things that you suffer.

[creativeRhino]

I've been a vegetarian (and sometimes vegan) for 25 years or more.

It is for ethical reasons (I studied philosophy with Peter Singer at Monash University early in his career - that is when I started examining what I did from the point of view of consequences.)

Animals raised for food in modern "large scale agri-business" are done so wastefully (feeding/watering) and have a needlessly big ecological impact. And they get treated badly in life and death. We behave like they don't feel pain, or their pain doesn't matter. Also all our food processing industries do add to pollution etc.

We don't need meat. I used to aerobics train/weight train and did it on a vegan diet. Protein deficiency is unlikely on a varied diet. Only in starvation situations is it likely (as there's not enough of any one nutrient!)

Most of our perceptions of meat being needed are marketing driven. There is a huge investment in "the way things are" in terms of agribusiness.

The less HI (human interference) we can have in our food, the better for us.
That goes for the production (eg feeding animals grass in open air/pasture, not grain inside "factories"), and not processing food to death for "packaging convenience".

In traditional societies meat is not a big part of the diet - as killing an animal means it has to be replaced and that can be an economic challenge. In many parts of Africa they drink cattle blood for this reason - to get the benefits without killing the animal.

To me, being a vego is a rational response to environmental and ethical concerns.

It also has me in good shape health wise - better than many folks of the same age.

[Nausved]

You can be big and "beefy" on a vegetarian diet its just more work.

You can get beefy even without eating meat if you take protein powder, it isn't anything special. I have 3 scoops of it every weekday and it's my main source of protein. Most serious weight lifters take protein powder and use it as their main source of protein.

This is a common misconception. If you are a typical American (even a typical vegetarian American), you already get more protein than your body can use. Protein powders are a waste of money—and unhealthy to boot.

Athletes do not require much more protein than their sedentary counterparts (source (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)). Protein is not a good source of energy, and it can cause calcium to be leached from your bones, which is a particularly bad thing if you are physically active (source (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)). Excess protein is converted to urea, which ultimately leads to dehydration (since urea is a very toxic waste product and must be diluted with water), and that is also very bad for athletes (source (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)).

If you want to "bulk up", you'll want to increase your intake of complex carbohydrates instead. These will provide you with long-lasting energy, without blood sugar spikes, fat gain, etc. (source (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)).

You should take protein powders only if directed by a competent doctor or nutritionist. Otherwise, this protein calculator (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) will help you determine the maximum amount of protein you should be eating.

[jtni]

Now, why would you want to feed them corn and grains? That's just straight up ridiculous. Cows should not be eating corn and other grains. They should be able to roam around freely to their hearts' content in pastures of pesticide-free grass. Sure, it's cheaper to keep the cows on feedlots and stuff them with grains, but it just diminishes the quality of the beef. Commercially-grown cows are more likely to be fattier and unhealthier, which is why people think eating meat is so bad. It's all about how the animals are raised. Eat quality grass-fed meat and you'll be just fine.


I don't think it is ridiculous for someone to use a more economically and timely method to raise food than another. I personally don't raise livestock but I do sell corn to people that do. What do you care what animals are fed. If someone prefers the taste of corn feed beef to grass fed beef then it is up to them. Are you arguing that everyone should share your views on health and eat only things that are the healthiest? There are a lot of things that you probably eat that are worse for you than corn fed beef. Me, I like my cinnabons.


I'm not sure I understand you. What exactly is "the impact on the environment" that you speak of? And how would "returning" the land to nature be beneficial to the economy? Please clarify.

There are a lot of people that believe that farming is bad for the environment. There are a lot of complaints, about water use, fertilizer use, chemical use, tillage practices, etc. If more people were vegetarians then there would be fewer farmed acres that were needed to feed people. Some believe that a field untouched grass and trees is a better thing than a field of food.

Personally, I believe society is better off raising a crop on the land. I believe there is plenty of water, and that fertilizer and chemical use allows more people to live in the urban areas doing something other than farming. I believe the economy is better off having the land be productive. But if we, as a society, decide to continue to take large amounts of ground out of production each year and use more organic methods then the economy will have less productivity and there will be a change in the diet while we pay more for the food. It seems a lot of people believe that you can feed an additional 100 million people a year on the planet while using fewer acres that produce less per acre. If the world's diet continues to eat meat on the scale it does now, then we need more food per acre to keep up with the growth in population. Or we can change our diet and feed more people. Or we stop population growth.

[apresmoimelle]

I always wanted to try and become a vegetarian, but my parents took that as code for: "I want to be anorexic". So I shouldn't say they "forced" meat and animal products on me, but they made it hard for me to argue against it, especially since meat is such a staple in our Liberian culture.

[dandylion]

I don't think it is ridiculous for someone to use a more economically and timely method to raise food than another. I personally don't raise livestock but I do sell corn to people that do. What do you care what animals are fed. If someone prefers the taste of corn feed beef to grass fed beef then it is up to them. Are you arguing that everyone should share your views on health and eat only things that are the healthiest? There are a lot of things that you probably eat that are worse for you than corn fed beef. Me, I like my cinnabons.

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting. I have different health standards from most people on the planet and I assume that everyone wants their systems to function their best. I try to go for the cleanest foods possible because of some health issues I have now and ones that I would like to avoid. I care about what animals eat and how they're raised because I end up eating them--if they're on a lousy diet and lifestyle, I'm not reaping all the benefits I can.

Grains and cows fed with grains are unhealthy for several reasons. It's all over the internet. I'll just post this link because it's convenient and seems to summarize everything nicely: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Anyway, the benefits of free-range, grass-fed cows far outweigh those of grain-fed cows (though I don't think there are any benefits to this other than that it's financially easier).

I think everyone should strive to be the healthiest they can be. Most people don't care. That's unfortunate. They'll be running into health issues later on in their life if they don't start taking care of themselves. I like seeing others do well, so that is why I try to persuade people to eat/do certain things. They don't have to agree with me, but at least then they'll be aware.

Don't get me wrong, I prefer to be healthy but I don't restrict myself severely. I enjoy cinnabons, too (in fact, I have a recipe for homemade cinnamon rolls that are exactly like cinnabon's; only difference is that is uses leavening ingredients instead of yeast) but I don't eat that or other processed/refined junk every day. If I'm going to go for something processed, I'll make it myself. At least then I know what's in it and can pick the freshest, best-quality ingredients. I like to invest in my health.



There are a lot of people that believe that farming is bad for the environment. There are a lot of complaints, about water use, fertilizer use, chemical use, tillage practices, etc. If more people were vegetarians then there would be fewer farmed acres that were needed to feed people. Some believe that a field untouched grass and trees is a better thing than a field of food.

Personally, I believe society is better off raising a crop on the land. I believe there is plenty of water, and that fertilizer and chemical use allows more people to live in the urban areas doing something other than farming. I believe the economy is better off having the land be productive. But if we, as a society, decide to continue to take large amounts of ground out of production each year and use more organic methods then the economy will have less productivity and there will be a change in the diet while we pay more for the food. It seems a lot of people believe that you can feed an additional 100 million people a year on the planet while using fewer acres that produce less per acre. If the world's diet continues to eat meat on the scale it does now, then we need more food per acre to keep up with the growth in population. Or we can change our diet and feed more people. Or we stop population growth.

Commercial farms are the ones to blame for the pollution issues. People can farm without the use of pesticides and other harmful chemicals. They've been doing it, but the idea is becoming more and more popular now. If more people supported local organic farmers who practice safe methods, wouldn't we all be better off?

I think we can feed the whole world if we wanted to using the resources we already have... the question is, do we want to? When most people hear about other people starving in some far-off location, they just think, "Oh no! That's so sad!" and they feel a little bad, but they just go back to their regularly scheduled program instead of taking action.

[jtni]

Anyway, the benefits of free-range, grass-fed cows far outweigh those of grain-fed cows (though I don't think there are any benefits to this other than that it's financially easier).


The is one other major reason for grain fed beef existing. That is we can raise a lot more cows and hence feed more beef to a world that wants it. If all feedlots were eliminated, then the number of cattle in the nation would need to be reduced by the number of cows that are in feedlots. In other words, the available range land is already being used to raise as many cattle as it can. Now, if you stopped using land to raise corn you could put it back to grass and have more cattle that way but there would still be a major reduction in the amount of beef. And while it would be possible to maintain the number of chickens, the labor level would go up dramatically without corn. So you would need to raise the price of chickens to pay more people to be involved in raising them. As for pigs. Same as cows.


Commercial farms are the ones to blame for the pollution issues. People can farm without the use of pesticides and other harmful chemicals. They've been doing it, but the idea is becoming more and more popular now. If more people supported local organic farmers who practice safe methods, wouldn't we all be better off?


Blaming commercial farms for pollution is inaccurate. In the State that I live, commercial farms have been banned for 20 years. That ban was just overturned by the courts as being unconstitutional. Pollution is not caused by corporations but by individuals that choose to pollute. I have a neighbor that is a one man operation. He goes to all of the right meetings. He would probably agree with you on many things. However, when we got a big rain and it flooded part of his farm that raised cows like you like he choose to pump the polluted water off his farm and into a nearby stream. Size has little to do with the policies that individuals or corporations choose to act by. It is a matter of personal values.

No we would not all be better off if many raised organic and ate organic. While I have no problem with you eating organic there would be problems if too many followed your lead. Why?

Organic yields are significantly less. As there are no more acres you can put into production you will get less food by going organic. Thus people will need to either eat less food or change their diet to eat less meat so we can take some of the corn and soybean acres and put them into organic raised vegetables. Figure ten pounds of corn for every pound of beef.

Organic is much less reliable. One year you may have a crop. The next year 70% of your crop may be wiped out by some fungus, mold, insect, or other thing that you can't control using natural methods.

I am assuming that since you like organic that you also don't like genetically modified crops. Eliminate the hybrid rice, wheat, bean, corn, etc and you will need to move a bunch of people out of the cities and onto the farm because without all of the yield increases from those things there would be half as much food in the world today.

You assume that because no chemical is used on a field that the produce on that field is better for you to eat. Do you prefer to eat more insect parts? The number of insects, both good and bad, on an organic field are dramatically higher than on a field where chemicals are used. Do you prefer your sweet corn or apples to have bug juice as a part of the mix? While you might because worms are natural, many people prefer to skip the worm juice and instead consume a molecule that has no measurable effect on humans.

So to answer your statement. No, we would not be better off eliminating farm corporations, farm chemicals, and feedlots.

Your ideas would work if we instead reduce the number of humans on the planet. Then many of the things you advocate would work. But as long as we keep adding 100 million people to the planet each year then your ideas will work for only a tiny part of the population.

[yondyr]

I have to agree, jtni. Elsewhere I posted that the world was overpopulated by humans creating conditions of competition for resources and land. But it appears humans consider breeding a natural right regardless of the consequences.
Most of what I eat is remaindered produce from the supermarket that rich people disdain, in addition to my own unsprayed plants, but then I have the room and the inclination to raise such 'organic' supplies. If I fertilized my bananas I'd end up with hundreds to consume in a short period of time - essentially 'forcing' the plant. I might also add the term 'organic' tends to be a rich persons indulgence.

[Jgib5328]

I don't think it is ridiculous for someone to use a more economically and timely method to raise food than another. I personally don't raise livestock but I do sell corn to people that do. What do you care what animals are fed. If someone prefers the taste of corn feed beef to grass fed beef then it is up to them. Are you arguing that everyone should share your views on health and eat only things that are the healthiest? There are a lot of things that you probably eat that are worse for you than corn fed beef. Me, I like my cinnabons.


It's ridiculous because you are wasting corn on cows. There are people starving in the world and this guy is wasting corn and grain on his cattle.

He isn't arguing about what someone prefers for taste, you are misinterpreting his argument completely. He is saying it doesn't make sense to feed cows people food.





Jgib5328 added to this post, 10 minutes and 9 seconds later...

This is a common misconception. If you are a typical American (even a typical vegetarian American), you already get more protein than your body can use. Protein powders are a waste of money—and unhealthy to boot.

Athletes do not require much more protein than their sedentary counterparts (source (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)). Protein is not a good source of energy, and it can cause calcium to be leached from your bones, which is a particularly bad thing if you are physically active (source (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)). Excess protein is converted to urea, which ultimately leads to dehydration (since urea is a very toxic waste product and must be diluted with water), and that is also very bad for athletes (source (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)).

If you want to "bulk up", you'll want to increase your intake of complex carbohydrates instead. These will provide you with long-lasting energy, without blood sugar spikes, fat gain, etc. (source (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)).

You should take protein powders only if directed by a competent doctor or nutritionist. Otherwise, this protein calculator (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) will help you determine the maximum amount of protein you should be eating.

Lol that calculator is BS, it says the ideal weight for a 5'9 person is 145. I have heard that we get enough protein in our diet that should be sufficient, but it is different for me. I still don't think I'd get enough protein in my diet for if I didn't get extra protein. I work out every day and 5 days a week I have intense weight lifting situations. I might just stop buying protein powder though & just finish off the last of my stuff here. I did lift for one week without protein powder and I saw noticeable decreases in my strength.

[jtni]

It's ridiculous because you are wasting corn on cows. There are people starving in the world and this guy is wasting corn and grain on his cattle.

He isn't arguing about what someone prefers for taste, you are misinterpreting his argument completely. He is saying it doesn't make sense to feed cows people food.


It might not make sense to the two of you but someone thinks it makes sense to spend over $50 billion a year for corn with a pretty good chunk of that going to feed cattle, pigs, and chickens. If you don't want to waste corn on cows, then the most effective way to make your desire to happen is to be a vegetarian. I am. Are you? As long as people choose to eat meat in the quantities we do then we must feed the cow corn.

True we could bypass the animals and feed the corn directly to humans. This would allow us to feed many more humans than exist now. Is that what you are suggesting we do? If so, do you think you can persuade the public to join you in you eating less meat?

People are not starving on this planet because of a shortage of food. They are usually starving because one group of humans is preventing another group of humans from getting access to food. The food exists to feed everyone.

[Nausved]

Lol that calculator is BS, it says the ideal weight for a 5'9 person is 145. I have heard that we get enough protein in our diet that should be sufficient, but it is different for me. I still don't think I'd get enough protein in my diet for if I didn't get extra protein. I work out every day and 5 days a week I have intense weight lifting situations. I might just stop buying protein powder though & just finish off the last of my stuff here. I did lift for one week without protein powder and I saw noticeable decreases in my strength.

Ideal weight is determined by the amount of lean mass that the average healthy person has. If you have more lean mass than normal, your ideal weight will be much higher, but your ideal protein intake will not vary so much.

If you've felt more listless after going without your protein powder for a week, it's probably due to your body having to acclimate to such an abrupt change in diet, rather than to getting too little protein

What percentage of your caloric intake is protein? If it is more than 2 grams (including your protein powders) per kilogram of body mass, it is probably too high (source (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)). That being said, you may want to speak to a well-read sports nutritionist, since you may have special requirements that other athletes don't.

[dandylion]

The is one other major reason for grain fed beef existing. That is we can raise a lot more cows and hence feed more beef to a world that wants it. If all feedlots were eliminated, then the number of cattle in the nation would need to be reduced by the number of cows that are in feedlots. In other words, the available range land is already being used to raise as many cattle as it can. Now, if you stopped using land to raise corn you could put it back to grass and have more cattle that way but there would still be a major reduction in the amount of beef. And while it would be possible to maintain the number of chickens, the labor level would go up dramatically without corn. So you would need to raise the price of chickens to pay more people to be involved in raising them. As for pigs. Same as cows.

We don't have to eliminate feedlots. We can still have them, but make sure the animals are raised humanely and are on good diets so that they don't need antibiotics and growth hormones in the first place.

Blaming commercial farms for pollution is inaccurate. In the State that I live, commercial farms have been banned for 20 years. That ban was just overturned by the courts as being unconstitutional. Pollution is not caused by corporations but by individuals that choose to pollute. I have a neighbor that is a one man operation. He goes to all of the right meetings. He would probably agree with you on many things. However, when we got a big rain and it flooded part of his farm that raised cows like you like he choose to pump the polluted water off his farm and into a nearby stream. Size has little to do with the policies that individuals or corporations choose to act by. It is a matter of personal values.

That's why I said to support farmers who practice safe methods.

Your neighbor isn't every organic farmer, so just because he made that decision, every other organic farmer is bad, too? But yes. I understand what you're saying. Individuals and corporations are fallible. There's always going to be a few people who make the wrong decisions, but there will be more who will try to do the right thing.

No we would not all be better off if many raised organic and ate organic. While I have no problem with you eating organic there would be problems if too many followed your lead. Why?

Organic yields are significantly less. As there are no more acres you can put into production you will get less food by going organic. Thus people will need to either eat less food or change their diet to eat less meat so we can take some of the corn and soybean acres and put them into organic raised vegetables. Figure ten pounds of corn for every pound of beef.

Organic is much less reliable. One year you may have a crop. The next year 70% of your crop may be wiped out by some fungus, mold, insect, or other thing that you can't control using natural methods.

I am assuming that since you like organic that you also don't like genetically modified crops. Eliminate the hybrid rice, wheat, bean, corn, etc and you will need to move a bunch of people out of the cities and onto the farm because without all of the yield increases from those things there would be half as much food in the world today.

You assume that because no chemical is used on a field that the produce on that field is better for you to eat. Do you prefer to eat more insect parts? The number of insects, both good and bad, on an organic field are dramatically higher than on a field where chemicals are used. Do you prefer your sweet corn or apples to have bug juice as a part of the mix? While you might because worms are natural, many people prefer to skip the worm juice and instead consume a molecule that has no measurable effect on humans.

So to answer your statement. No, we would not be better off eliminating farm corporations, farm chemicals, and feedlots.

Your ideas would work if we instead reduce the number of humans on the planet. Then many of the things you advocate would work. But as long as we keep adding 100 million people to the planet each year then your ideas will work for only a tiny part of the population.

I've never seen/tasted insects or worms in my food. It's nothing a good washing can't fix. And many organic farmers choose their best produce to sell rather than the bug-infested variety.

Here's a compromise: Farmers can continue to spray pesticides onto the crops if they want to, but I think they should still keep the animals grass-fed, free-range and healthy, free of antibiotics and growth hormones. Hey, even I buy commercial fruits and vegetables from time to time, especially when they're not in season. I don't really mind, but I go for organic when I can. And I never said we had to eliminate pesticides/chemical usage, feedlots, or farm corporations.


It's ridiculous because you are wasting corn on cows. There are people starving in the world and this guy is wasting corn and grain on his cattle.

He isn't arguing about what someone prefers for taste, you are misinterpreting his argument completely. He is saying it doesn't make sense to feed cows people food.

Kind of. I'm saying it doesn't make sense to feed cows grains because of the effect of grains on cows' health and subsequently the cows' effect on people.

By the way, I am female.

It might not make sense to the two of you but someone thinks it makes sense to spend over $50 billion a year for corn with a pretty good chunk of that going to feed cattle, pigs, and chickens. If you don't want to waste corn on cows, then the most effective way to make your desire to happen is to be a vegetarian. I am. Are you? As long as people choose to eat meat in the quantities we do then we must feed the cow corn.

True we could bypass the animals and feed the corn directly to humans. This would allow us to feed many more humans than exist now. Is that what you are suggesting we do? If so, do you think you can persuade the public to join you in you eating less meat?

Sure, why not? It'll take a lot of time, of course, but we can get there eventually. Again, look at the people on the Mediterranean and Asian diets... they don't center their meals around lots of meat all the time. People are paying more and more attention to their diet and lifestyles nowadays.

People are not starving on this planet because of a shortage of food. They are usually starving because one group of humans is preventing another group of humans from getting access to food. The food exists to feed everyone.

That's basically what I said in my last post. ;) Glad we can agree on one thing.

[outrider]

Anybody wanting to look at this option should do it because they want to not due to pressure. Just about everything in moderation is fine. Its when you over do things that you suffer.

Oh, agreed. I checked out this thread, and, well, yikes!

I don't like the taste or texture of meat. That is the predominant reason I've been a vegetarian (though not vegan - I will never give up melted cheese) for more than 20 years.

Sometimes I get a little thin when I work too hard and forget to eat lunch for a week or two. I've never been overweight. I have plenty of energy and my brain functions just fine, thanks. Furthermore, my eyes are bright, and my coat is shiny (I'm a veterinarian, so I had to say that).

For all you guys out there: I'm dating a carnivore. I told him that while I have no ethical objection to his dietary preferences, he will have to cook meat for himself because in order to cook properly, one must taste the dish and I hate the taste of meat. In return, he made me promise to never sneak him any lima beans or orange squash, under any circumstances.

Deal.

[futureperfect5]

I prefer fruit over all over foods. Mostly, I eat vegetables -- little meat, poultry.
Allergic to fish.

The most practical pro on vegetarianism is the low-cost. Except, I buy protein powder and other supplements ... I am extremely anemic and have to get protein and Bs in my diet.
The negative is availability and prep time -- if you go the route of full meals.
[I just eat salad, apples, oranges, strawberries. Little "cooking" at my place.]

The most practical pro on meat, fish, poultry is natural protein supply. However, with the additives and preservatives and obvious negatives ... I prefer synthetics or vegetable derived alternatives.


Look how strong horses are: they are veggers, too.

[Fergie]

Oh, agreed. I checked out this thread, and, well, yikes!

I don't like the taste or texture of meat. That is the predominant reason I've been a vegetarian (though not vegan - I will never give up melted cheese) for more than 20 years.

Sometimes I get a little thin when I work too hard and forget to eat lunch for a week or two. I've never been overweight. I have plenty of energy and my brain functions just fine, thanks. Furthermore, my eyes are bright, and my coat is shiny (I'm a veterinarian, so I had to say that).

For all you guys out there: I'm dating a carnivore. I told him that while I have no ethical objection to his dietary preferences, he will have to cook meat for himself because in order to cook properly, one must taste the dish and I hate the taste of meat. In return, he made me promise to never sneak him any lima beans or orange squash, under any circumstances.

Deal.
You sound like me and mine. ;D
I feel the same way about meat (and cheese . . . mmmmm).

He jokes about it a lot:
Vegetarian - that's the Indian word for bad hunter!
The less meat you eat, the more for me!
Hey honey it's okay - I only eat meat from animals that smoke and do drugs. I figure I'm helping improve the species.

He also has made me promise not to give him tofu without his consent.

[Aoiluna]

I actually just read an article on atherosclerosis, which only affects herbivores. There is a paragraph about how biologically, humans have characteristics of herbivores.( Herbivores have appendages in the form of hands or hooves, not claws; carnivores have much sharper teeth while herbivores have flatter teeth for grinding; carnivores' intestinal tract is only 3 times the body length while an herbivore's intestinal tract is 12 times the body length; carnivores lap fluids while herbivores sip it; and carnivores produce their own vitamin C while herbivores must obtain it from their diet. )

It seems that humans are not really designed to eat meat, especially considering that we need to cook it to eat it and usually use utensils. Im not saying that we are not designed to be omnivores, because we can eat some animal products without cooking or using utensils.

I guess you could also argue from an evolution point of view on why we can/should eat meat (humans evolved to be able to hunt and cook, and if we have the means to eat it we can). Im not saying that we shouldnt eat meat, I'm just putting in a biological point of view.

[Capt57]

Lol that calculator is BS, it says the ideal weight for a 5'9 person is 145. I have heard that we get enough protein in our diet that should be sufficient, but it is different for me. I still don't think I'd get enough protein in my diet for if I didn't get extra protein. I work out every day and 5 days a week I have intense weight lifting situations. I might just stop buying protein powder though & just finish off the last of my stuff here. I did lift for one week without protein powder and I saw noticeable decreases in my strength.

I agree, humans did not survive ice ages by eating carbohydrates. They ate meat and fat like Eskimos. There is no good evidence that a diet high in protein and fat and devoid of most carbohydrates is unhealthy. In fact, it may have been our predominant diet over 200,000 years. Anyway the state of science and nutrition is abysmal. We simply do not have good long term studies that compare these diets. It is a matter of faith not science at this point. I personally have eaten almost no carbs for over a year. I'll let you know if I die.

[Circe]

I was under the impression that humans can eat raw meat- sushi, steak tartar, and shellfish to name a few. Many native tribes eat meat raw, and I know many people today who will eat uncooked eggs and ground hamburger meat.

The benefits to cooking are obvious; it kills parasites and just tastes better. Carnivores in the wild have powerful immune systems but are often riddled with parasites from the meat they eat. Could humans have evolved to eat meat raw, but lost some of their natural resistance to parasites found in meat one they began to cook? (I'm pretty sure that there's evidence to suggest this at archaeological sites of primitive humans)

[Nausved]

There is no good evidence that a diet high in protein and fat and devoid of most carbohydrates is unhealthy.

Did you miss all the sources I happened to supply?

Anyway the state of science and nutrition is abysmal. We simply do not have good long term studies that compare these diets. It is a matter of faith not science at this point.

I think that your assertions are more based on faith than mine. You may not agree with the science, but I'm more inclined to trust it over the archaeological leftovers of unrecorded history. Did you know that our ancestors also had poor hygiene?

I'll let you know if I die.
:laugh:

[Bluestocking]

I've been an ovo-lacto vegetarian since I was about five, thanks to a childhood trauma. My grandfather raised cows, I turned one into a pet, and it got loose and was killed by a car on the highway. Grandpa announced he was turning the cow into steaks and I became hysterical and said I would never again eat meat, much less the steak from the cow. At the time I also had a pronounced phobia about death of all kinds. Despite bribery, threats, and ridicule from classmates, I held firm and did not again eat meat.

For whatever it's worth, it's supposedly a healthier option, but I'd be lying if I said that's why I don't eat meat. Chalk it up to a longstanding phobia and sheer stubbornness.

[outrider]

(and cheese . . . mmmmm)..

I love cheese, in all forms, on almost everything.

He also has made me promise not to give him tofu without his consent.

Mine actually likes tofu when it is appropriately cooked and seasoned. I am a lucky woman.

I warned him early on that while I am a very tolerant vegetarian, I don't take well to those who brandish their barbecued ribs or the like in front of me and say things like "yummy dead animal". Usually when this happens, I take the opportunity to give an impromptu anatomy lesson. As I am a veterinarian, this can get very detailed and explicit.

He just about fell on the floor laughing and told me I didn't have to worry.

[bucolic_]

This is a common misconception. If you are a typical American (even a typical vegetarian American), you already get more protein than your body can use. Protein powders are a waste of money—and unhealthy to boot.

Athletes do not require much more protein than their sedentary counterparts (source (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)). Protein is not a good source of energy, and it can cause calcium to be leached from your bones, which is a particularly bad thing if you are physically active (source (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)). Excess protein is converted to urea, which ultimately leads to dehydration (since urea is a very toxic waste product and must be diluted with water), and that is also very bad for athletes (source (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)).

If you want to "bulk up", you'll want to increase your intake of complex carbohydrates instead. These will provide you with long-lasting energy, without blood sugar spikes, fat gain, etc. (source (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)).

You should take protein powders only if directed by a competent doctor or nutritionist. Otherwise, this protein calculator (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) will help you determine the maximum amount of protein you should be eating.

A few points I'd like to make.

The "leaching of calcium" is a very real possibility, however, it makes much more sense if you understand the mechanism by which it occurs. The body requires certain PH levels, and so if the levels aren't balanced, the body will try to correct it via various buffering reactions, and yes, one of them results in decreased bone calcium. Generally speaking, meat, grains, and dairy tend to be acidic, whereas fruit and vegetables are largely alkaline. The problem with many high protein diets is that they fail to take this into account, allowing an increased intake of protein to displace an intake of vegetables. This *doesn't* mean that high-protein is the cause of low-bone calcium, only that the displacement of alkaline foods can be.

Plenty of more information with lots of sources here : To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Protein powders are not a waste of money, though they can be if used improperly. One of the biggest benefits (as proven by scientific research) is that protein and carbs are of great benefit during the workout window, with quick absorbing proteins being most beneficial, hence the use of whey in most cases.

This is exactly why chocolate milk of all things has been proven to be a good workout drink. At first glance, many think this sounds like nonsense, but it makes sense when you consider the fact that milk protein is about 20% whey, and that chocolate milk is full of sugar, a nice, quick absorbing carbohydrate for the workout window. Now let's take it a step further, if you get rid of that other 80% of protein in milk (casein, a slow absorbing protein), and isolate the whey in a protein powder...You have a wonderful way of increasing your efficiency and recovery.

Oh, and BTW, if you read the article you posted regarding dehydration, the solution, as indicated by the researchers themselves, is quite simple, drink more water. ;)





bucolic_ added to this post, 8 minutes and 44 seconds later...

You can get beefy even without eating meat if you take protein powder, it isn't anything special. I have 3 scoops of it every weekday and it's my main source of protein. Most serious weight lifters take protein powder and use it as their main source of protein.

That's a bit questionable, I don't know the exact stats, but I'd say most would agree, that whole food sources of protein are generally superior to supplements. There are other cases where I would say supplementation is superior, particularly in the workout window, when quick absorbing proteins are useful.

[Nausved]

The "leaching of calcium" is a very real possibility, however, it makes much more sense if you understand the mechanism by which it occurs. The body requires certain PH levels, and so if the levels aren't balanced, the body will try to correct it via various buffering reactions, and yes, one of them results in decreased bone calcium. Generally speaking, meat, grains, and dairy tend to be acidic, whereas fruit and vegetables are largely alkaline. The problem with many high protein diets is that they fail to take this into account, allowing an increased intake of protein to displace an intake of vegetables. This *doesn't* mean that high-protein is the cause of low-bone calcium, only that the displacement of alkaline foods can be.

That's very fascinating. Thanks for pointing it out. I knew that acidity causes calcium and other minerals to be leached from the soil (which is why acid rain is so bad), but it never occurred to me that the same rule might apply to the human body. It fits in with the current research showing that consuming lots of dairy products as an adult is not linked to lower rates of osteoperosis. The problem is not that we aren't getting enough calcium, but that we aren't retaining enough calcium.

This is exactly why chocolate milk of all things has been proven to be a good workout drink. At first glance, many think this sounds like nonsense, but it makes sense when you consider the fact that milk protein is about 20% whey, and that chocolate milk is full of sugar, a nice, quick absorbing carbohydrate for the workout window. Now let's take it a step further, if you get rid of that other 80% of protein in milk (casein, a slow absorbing protein), and isolate the whey in a protein powder...You have a wonderful way of increasing your efficiency and recovery.

I'm a little doubtful of isolated simple carbohydrates (like sugar) being good for workouts. Although they are useful for a short boost of energy, they are often linked to sudden dips in blood sugar. I've always heard that athletes should focus on slow-absorbing carbohydrates and proteins, since they are longer-lasting and don't jar your system as much. I guess it may depend on how long-term (e.g., cross country) or short-term (e.g., sprinting) your workout is, though.

That being said, casein (though slow-absorbing) is a rather risky protein for humans under any circumstances. I guess this makes sense, considering that extended dairy consumption is a relatively new phenomenon, and we aren't particularly well adapted for it. Protein from meat or plant sources is safer.

Oh, and BTW, if you read the article you posted regarding dehydration, the solution, as indicated by the researchers themselves, is quite simple, drink more water. ;)

Unfortunately, people generally don't get enough water as it is. And as the article points out, people who consume a lot of protein feel no more thirsty than people who don't, so they are particularly at risk.

[Victoria Silver]

I have been a lacto-vegetarian for many years. My primary reason for giving up meat was the fact that I felt guilty about benefiting directly from the death and suffering of animals. I am quite aware that the suffering of human beings is more profound, and more worthy of ethical consideration; but I contend that the suffering of animals is not zero, and therefore is worthy of some ethical consideration. What one should do about this is an individual decision, and I don't claim any ethical superiority to any meat eater. (I also try to avoid wearing leather and so on.)

I understand the feelings of those who just plain like to eat meat, since the only thing that keeps me from being vegan is the fact that I love the taste of good cheese. (Real mozzarella, real roquefort, real feta, and so on.)

On the other hand, after I gave up meat, I discovered that I didn't really like the taste or texture of it at all. It was the spices and seasonings which are often used with meat which I liked. I now enjoy yummy veggie burgers and sausages and so on, and I don't miss real meat at all. Giving it up was, in fact, the easiest thing I ever did. Now just the idea of eating meat seems rather disgusting to me.

I don't think that I have made any kind of sacrifice at all by giving up meat. I still love good food, and enjoy a wide variety of dishes. Thai, Indian, and Mediterranean cuisine, along with many others, can be greatly enjoyed without meat.

[malefide]

I have been a vegetarian since birth. I have never eaten meat before, and the smell of it makes me ill. Since I haven't had any health problems from my diet, I see no reason to begin eating it. I am not a vegetarian on moral grounds at all.

[mkay]

My INTJ husband has been vegan for four years. Heart problems run in his family, so he figured he'd better head them off. He eats mostly beans, grains and vegetables, few fruits. He also limits his tofu (soy) intake because he read that it contains estrogen-like chemicals that apparently aren't good for you in large quantities. He occasionally eats fish, for instance if we go to a restaurant without an alternative. He was never a big meat eater, so he doesn't mind much.

I was always a big meat eater (on a trip to Texas, I once had steak for breakfast, lunch and dinner), but I went vegan for six months. It was easier than I thought. I definitely felt healthier -- more energetic, didn't get stomachaches or menstrual cramping. (Sorry if that's too much info, but it was an amazing difference and other women might want to know that.) And I lost weight without trying. It took more time to prep lunch for work, because there were limited choices otherwise. I found myself having to eat a lot of vegetables to get full. I felt like a cow, grazing in the field, and my jaw started hurting from all the chewing, but I was eating a lot of carrots and other hard vegetables, which I prefer.

I've gone back to eating meat, not nearly as much though, just because I saw the health difference from being vegan for six months.

One year, we tried a Tofurky Thanksgiving kit. It was like eating a package of different-shaped erasers.

[pallasathena]

My INTJ husband has been vegan for four years. Heart problems run in his family, so he figured he'd better head them off. He eats mostly beans, grains and vegetables, few fruits. He also limits his tofu (soy) intake because he read that it contains estrogen-like chemicals that apparently aren't good for you in large quantities. He occasionally eats fish, for instance if we go to a restaurant without an alternative. He was never a big meat eater, so he doesn't mind much.

I was always a big meat eater (on a trip to Texas, I once had steak for breakfast, lunch and dinner), but I went vegan for six months. It was easier than I thought. I definitely felt healthier -- more energetic, didn't get stomachaches or menstrual cramping. (Sorry if that's too much info, but it was an amazing difference and other women might want to know that.) And I lost weight without trying. It took more time to prep lunch for work, because there were limited choices otherwise. I found myself having to eat a lot of vegetables to get full. I felt like a cow, grazing in the field, and my jaw started hurting from all the chewing, but I was eating a lot of carrots and other hard vegetables, which I prefer.

I've gone back to eating meat, not nearly as much though, just because I saw the health difference from being vegan for six months.

One year, we tried a Tofurky Thanksgiving kit. It was like eating a package of different-shaped erasers.

That's really interesting. I took an eight-week class with The Cancer Project, who is promoting a vegan lifestyle for cancer prevention. You and your husband should check out their site at To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. they have vegan recipes and they're pretty tasty. They also have video clips of a lecture by a doctor about cancer prevention which is very good.

[mkay]

Thanks for the link, pallasathena. I'll have my husband check out the recipes. He does all the cooking. He's good at it and makes many Asian and Mediterranean dishes.

He started reading up on health, nutrition and alternative medicine several years ago and is a font of scary facts about meat, dairy and conventional medicine. Maybe true to his INTJ-ness, he can overwhelm others. When he started learning and went vegan, he reminded me of a born-again Christian intent on converting everyone. :) He's eased up a bit (but just a bit!), and he's more effective now at passing along information. Over dinner last night, he managed to kind of convert a college friend of mine who was just passing through town.

[TheFreeThinker]

Is there any vegans or vegetarians on this forum? If you are one, why you chose to be? If you are not one, why you chose not to be?

I’m half-vegan and half vegetarian. I don’t use meat, leather and fur but I use milk regularly and eggs rarely. Well, yeah I also use some other non-vegan products such as shapoos, soaps..etc. When you are a poor student, it's hard to go fully vegan. Once, I really start working again, I'll completely go vegan. My primary reason behind this decision: I’m against killing and mistreatment of animals. Health, economy and environment are my secondary reasons.

[Lucan]

I am a lacto-ovo vegetarian and have been for about 12 years or so. I became one because of allergic reactions ( life threatening) to meat and meat based products. It turns out after being a lab rat for a while that I am reacting to the antibiotics , steroids etc. That is in the meat. I am quite happy with keeping my daily food intake the way it currently is. I am far healthier now than when I ate meat.

[Circe]

I'm not a vegetarian or a vegan, though my roommate is, and I completely respect those who choose not to include animals in their diet.

I'm not a vegetarian because I enjoy meat, but also because I've been raised as a "country girl." I hunt, fish, and help farm and slaughter my own meat, so eating it has always been second nature to me. I don't agree with factory farms- there are much more humane and environmentally friendly ways to raise animals.

[Szarra]

I was also raised in a farming community. I eat meat and wear leather. Why? Because it is wasteful to not use as much of the animal as possible. But why use the animal at all? I think everything is linked in some way and has a purpose. For example: I love pinto beans. However, they are a complex protein which my body can not naturally break down by itself. You need a simple protein (ie: ham) cooked with it to break it down. Plus meat is just so darn tasty! ;D

I agree with Circe about the factory farms. I also don't think animals should be used to test cosmetic/vanity products. Medical testing is something else. If we could find people to line up for medical testing then I'd say do that. There just doesn't seem to be a whole lot of people willing to do that, however.

[TheLastMohican]

I was also raised in a farming community. I eat meat and wear leather. Why? Because it is wasteful to not use as much of the animal as possible. But why use the animal at all? I think everything is linked in some way and has a purpose. For example: I love pinto beans. However, they are a complex protein which my body can not naturally break down by itself. You need a simple protein (ie: ham) cooked with it to break it down. Plus meat is just so darn tasty! ;D


Hence the handiness of quinoa.

[Szarra]

Hence the handiness of quinoa.


Very interesting looking stuff. I'll have to give it a try. I won't go vegan but I'm open to expanding my tastes beyond "meat and potatoes". Maybe we should start a recipes thread.

While I'm here...What do vegans substitute for milk? Anything other than Soy Milk? I can't drink regular milk and soy can be rather expensive. I just can't seem to get past the taste as well.

[TheLastMohican]

Very interesting looking stuff. I'll have to give it a try. I won't go vegan but I'm open to expanding my tastes beyond "meat and potatoes". Maybe we should start a recipes thread.

It makes a great hot cereal, FYI.

While I'm here...What do vegans substitute for milk? Anything other than Soy Milk? I can't drink regular milk and soy can be rather expensive. I just can't seem to get past the taste as well.

Try rice milk. It tastes a little different, but not nearly as weird as soy. It has a kind of bland-but-slightly-sweet taste, and it's really good if you get vanilla flavor.





TheLastMohican added to this post, 1 minutes and 22 seconds later...

Also, why can't you drink regular milk? There is lactose-free milk, if that's the problem.

[Szarra]

I am lactose intollerent. (I think) I can eat cheese, cottage cheese, sour cream and other stuff with no noticible problems. But if I drink a glass of milk or have some in cereal, the results are not pretty. I've never noticed any lactose-free milk in our stores. I tried using the pills to control it but I never could seem to get the dosage or timing right. Plus, those pills are huge! Trying to choke down "2 or 3 as needed" was a pain.
Thanks for the info. I'll check the shelves again for the lactose-free kind or try the rice milk. :)

[acyckowski]

Is there any vegans or vegetarians on this forum? If you are one, why you chose to be? If you are not one, why you chose not to be?

Being omnivorous is not a choice, it's hard-wired into primates.

Semantics aside, meat and dairy are a matter of practicality to me. I'm simply too big and too active to get enough protein and calcium without meat and dairy products. It just isn't reasonable for me to eat continuously for my entire waking day. I tried lacto-ovo vegeterianism once, in college, and I made it about 48 hours before I went stark raving mad for something with protein and iron in it.

If you can do it, and want to, there certainly are a number of benefits. I'd caution everybody to research it well, though, because there are many ignored (or downplayed) drawbacks, especially if you go vegan. Nutritional deficiencies take a long time to manifest, and often appear to be something else. I'd recommend you do part of your research on bodybuilding or sports medicine sites, as the focus there is on the science of physical performance and not so much on moral advocacy.

[Aoiluna]

I have been a vegetarian since birth. I have never eaten meat before, and the smell of it makes me ill. Since I haven't had any health problems from my diet, I see no reason to begin eating it. I am not a vegetarian on moral grounds at all.

That is odd, did your parents ever try to make you eat meat when you were young? What about doctors?

As a baby I wouldnt eat it so my parents had to trick me into eating meat. It eventually got to the point where they had to put fruit at the tip of the spoon so when I tested the tip I wouldnt suspect anything.

[Mittens]

Anything other than Soy Milk? I can't drink regular milk and soy can be rather expensive. I just can't seem to get past the taste as well.

I'd agree on the rice milk (goes much better with cold cereal than soy milk, too, I think). I've also had almond milk (didn't enjoy it), and I think they make other kinds of nut milks, oat milk, and hemp milk, but I've never had any of them.

[Radamisto]

I am a vegan. I became one because I realised I actually prefer fruits and vegetables to animal products. Since I switched I have more energy, feel better and enjoy better health. Definitely one of the best decisions in my life!

[kantsuu]

I am lactose intollerent. (I think) I can eat cheese, cottage cheese, sour cream and other stuff with no noticible problems. But if I drink a glass of milk or have some in cereal, the results are not pretty. I've never noticed any lactose-free milk in our stores. I tried using the pills to control it but I never could seem to get the dosage or timing right. Plus, those pills are huge! Trying to choke down "2 or 3 as needed" was a pain.
Thanks for the info. I'll check the shelves again for the lactose-free kind or try the rice milk. :)

You might want to look into IBS. People with IBS sometimes suffer from something similar to lactose intolerance that isn't quite the same.

At any rate, I'm not a vegetarian or vegan and have never honestly considered being one. I've never really seen it as a moral responsibility... it doesn't really seem worth the time or money to me. I don't have a problem with other people choosing that as long as they don't make things difficult for those around them who don't have a similar diet.

[malefide]

I have been raised since birth has a lacto-ovo vegetarian. So I have never eaten meat besides some forms of eel and other fish. The smell of meat makes me ill. I have never had any health problems related to being vegetarian, so I am certain that I will never eat meat unless it is necessary to survival.

[sriv]

You guys are missing out. So juicy sweet, raw meat.

[ceg6]

I actually crave beef. It's a little odd to crave protein like that but I do. I always have. On the healthy side of things, I do buy half a cow from a local farmer and have it processed by a butcher. Grass and organically fed and pastured. Organic meat and dairy is so unbelievably better tasting. Anyway, I'm not giving up the meat.

[TheLastMohican]

I actually crave beef. It's a little odd to crave protein like that but I do. I always have. On the healthy side of things, I do buy half a cow from a local farmer and have it processed by a butcher. Grass and organically fed and pastured. Organic meat and dairy is so unbelievably better tasting. Anyway, I'm not giving up the meat.

Have you tried bison? It's even better than organic beef.

[acyckowski]

RE: the posts about lactose intolerance, folks with milkfat allergies exhibit the same symptoms, although the cause is different. From what I've read, if you think you're lactose intolerant, but you 1) developed the problem in adulthood, and/or 2) can eat cheese and skim-milk products, but have difficulty with whole-milk and ice cream, you may want to get checked out for a milkfat allergy. Cheese is iffy for some, but apparently the cultures do something to mitigate the allergic reaction.

[suzyk]

I'm vegetarian because I was raised as one. I've tried meat for a few months, it's tasty, but I gave it up because I don't like eating things that once lived. Don't harass me about this, I just don't like eating meat, the end.

[thod]

From To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

+ Vegetarians taste better: What you eat affects the flavor of your semen/vaginal secretions. Meat and asparagus supposedly make sexual secretions taste bitter, garlic can make them taste garlicky and fruits, especially pineapple, can give secretions a sweet taste.

+ Increasing the amount of zinc in a man's diet can increase the volume of semen he ejaculates. Male porn actors are said to have diets high in zinc for this purpose. Zinc can be found in black-eyed peas, spinach, and nuts. Exercising the PC muscle (the muscle that you flex to stop your urine mid-stream) can increase the distance and force with which a man ejaculates.


So could start a pineapple diet, except that makes your teeth fall out.

[azelismia]

I only eat poultry. i used to be a vegetarian but my skin and health suffered from the lack of protein. I am mildly allergic to soy. I don't like the idea that I am eating something that was once living but I consider poultry to be less sentient than other animals.