Meaningless?

[ssfanatic]

I everything in life meaningless since it is all gone when we die?
I am speaking specifically of possessions, not influence.
I think that it is. Anything that i own will never change the world, or change my family for that matter, therefore it is useless and meaningless.

Edit: Ecclesiastes chapter 1 (words from the supposed wisest man ever)
The words of the Teacher, [a] son of David, king in Jerusalem:

2 "Meaningless! Meaningless!"
says the Teacher.
"Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless."

3 What does man gain from all his labor
at which he toils under the sun?

4 Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever.

5 The sun rises and the sun sets,
and hurries back to where it rises.

6 The wind blows to the south
and turns to the north;
round and round it goes,
ever returning on its course.

7 All streams flow into the sea,
yet the sea is never full.
To the place the streams come from,
there they return again.

8 All things are wearisome,
more than one can say.
The eye never has enough of seeing,
nor the ear its fill of hearing.

9 What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.

10 Is there anything of which one can say,
"Look! This is something new"?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.

11 There is no remembrance of men of old,
and even those who are yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow.

[vkut79]

"I everything in life meaningless since it is all gone when we die?
I am speaking specifically of possessions, not influence.
I think that it is. Anything that i own will never change the world, or change my family for that matter, therefore it is useless and meaningless."

If that's how you understand something's meaningfulness and usefulness, then sure.

[ssfanatic]

Well are you not going to expound, express your POV? Its ok to disagree, i wont hurt you ;)

[vkut79]

Well personally I see value in things in terms of how much happiness they can cause me within my lifetime. I don't consider how something will change or affect the world after I'm gone when I decide if something is meaningful. If my house shelters me from the weather and protects me from robbers and thieves, then it is useful and meaningful to me - it makes me happy - even if it collapses when I die and everybody forgets that it even existed.

I really don't understand why you would regard something as meaningful or useful based on how it will affect the world or your family after you are gone. Why would that even matter that much, if at all? Sure it would be nice if your things did impact the world in such a way, but is that really that significant compared to how much they can affect you, emotionally or psychologically, during your own life?

[ssfanatic]

So if something benefits you then it is meaningful? Thats basically what you just said.
I judge meaningfulness from impact bec that is what lasts. We are ephemeral, so if we dont leave an impact, then what good did we do. It goes with the proverb give a man a fish, feed him for a day, teach a man how to fish, feed him for a lifetime. I can either make people and myself happy now, or i can give people/world something that is truly beneficial.

[vkut79]

You said that you were speaking specifically of "possessions". How are these possessions supposed to significantly affect future people? You mean material, physical possessions, right? If you were talking about ideas, then thats a completely different story. There I can see how you can truly achieve a lasting impact. But with material possessions, like a house or a car, why would you ever care how these possessions would affect people after you are gone? More than likely they will be discarded as trash when new and better possessions are created. If you are indeed talking about material possessions, then yes I would definitely say they are meaningful insofar as they benefit me in my current life, afterwards I don't even see how they could signficantly change/benefit the world.

[Latte]

I think things, stuff, objects are meaningless in themselves as possessions if one looks at it logically.

To truly understand a flawed concept that is quite normal in the human mind, it would be wise to explore the function of the concept within the whole.

I'd say there is 2 aspects of objects. The symbolic aspect and the practical aspect.

The symbolic aspect is used with status, self-perception and view of the worth of oneself. The symbolic aspect is quite useful for the illusion of relative worth of individuals to be maintained and exist in peoples minds. There are always labels to put on people regardless of their possessions though, which can serve the same purpose.

I'd claim the practical aspect - the usage of objects as tools - is different, as it then serves towards an objective, regardless of whether that objective leads anywhere or not.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

If something has meaning, then it is significant and important. But, important to who? Does it matter who it is important to? If you own a car and it is important to you because it gets you to where you are going, then it is meaningful to you. If you leave the car to your poor uncle when you die and he uses it to get groceries, then it is meaningful to him.

[coffeeloverfreak]

Nothing you do is meaningless unless you allow it to be.

People who truly made a difference in the world have their impact felt for many many years after their death. And you don't even have to be a Winston Churchill or a Mother Teresa or an Albert Einstein for that to be true. My grandfather lived his entire life doing good things for other people, and his life was anything but meaningless. He made so many other lives better, how could that not count?

You only get one life, and it's a short one. Spend it trying to make it count, that's what I say.

[blueback]

So, you're basing your idea that everything is meaningless on the words of a guy who doesn't know what he's talking about?

he said:
11 There is no remembrance of men of old,
and even those who are yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow.

But the only reason you know he said that is that he was remembered, ergo he doesn't know what he's saying. Actually, he sounds a bit like a whiny emo kid to me.

I think that whole speech was just a crass attempt to get a bunch of goat herders to give all their stuff to the church.

[burazekun]

Meaningless is a point of veiw. If we depend on others to exsist then we are surely doomed and meaningless ourselves. Our possesions are given meaning by us, reflecting accordingly to our needs or desires. Meaning in our lives is given only to ourselves.

We are not the same man or woman your friend sees, we are not the same man or woman we see in the mirror. We are what we gave meaning too or for.

Before meaning is meaningless or the same as nothingness. But with our exsistance comes meaning and mass. Each person will give their own meaning to our actions, interpeted through their own preception.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Can there be meaningfulness in a life that ends when it dies? I would say that meaningfulness is defined and experienced by the individual. If I believe that my life has meaning and I am an atheist, then I will find meaning in my life and, therefore, my life will have meaning. The same would be true if I were a theist.

[pavman]

Can there be meaningfulness in a life that ends when it dies?

Sure, but only a temporal meaningfulness. ;)

I think the big issue is whether or not the pressure from society fosters an environment that requires one to strive to have purpose and meaning in life.

Ultimately, most people want to be happy, but the consciousness of the world tends to say in order to lead a meaningful life, one must contribute to society in some way. In fact, we live in a very gnostic age where knowledge is prized and worshiped like a god, and those that achieve a certain level of contribution to society also become part of that incessant knowledge worship, whether they are dead or alive.

To me, it doesn't matter if my life has a meaning or not. The truth is, I can choose to live with meaning or purpose, or I can choose not to live that way.

This is the beauty of free-will...we can choose of our own accord the path we'd like. I agree that people are stubborn like sheep and don't really get the spiritual dimension, and therefore dismiss it out of hand without actually digging deeply into it. Usually this is because when encountered with a truth that contradicts their malformed conscience, they opt for their conscience instead of examining their actions and righting in themselves what is misplaced.

In practice, being a Christian is much harder than in theory. It takes a lot of will power to continuously try to resolve your will to perfection. Fortunately, there's also that sanctifying grace that comes when you have picked the right choice in regards to embracing or rejecting sin. :thumbsup:

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Sure, but only a temporal meaningfulness. ;)

I think the big issue is whether or not the pressure from society fosters an environment that requires one to strive to have purpose and meaning in life.

Ultimately, most people want to be happy, but the consciousness of the world tends to say in order to lead a meaningful life, one must contribute to society in some way. In fact, we live in a very gnostic age where knowledge is prized and worshiped like a god, and those that achieve a certain level of contribution to society also become part of that incessant knowledge worship, whether they are dead or alive.

To me, it doesn't matter if my life has a meaning or not. The truth is, I can choose to live with meaning or purpose, or I can choose not to live that way.

This is the beauty of free-will...we can choose of our own accord the path we'd like. I agree that people are stubborn like sheep and don't really get the spiritual dimension, and therefore dismiss it out of hand without actually digging deeply into it. Usually this is because when encountered with a truth that contradicts their malformed conscience, they opt for their conscience instead of examining their actions and righting in themselves what is misplaced.

In practice, being a Christian is much harder than in theory. It takes a lot of will power to continuously try to resolve your will to perfection. Fortunately, there's also that sanctifying grace that comes when you have picked the right choice in regards to embracing or rejecting sin. :thumbsup:
Isn't a life that ends when it dies temporal? Oh .... a joke?

The real issue is whether or not we can ignore the pressures of society and find our own way.

[NephilimAzrael]

I judge meaningfulness from impact bec that is what lasts. We are ephemeral, so if we dont leave an impact, then what good did we do. It goes with the proverb give a man a fish, feed him for a day, teach a man how to fish, feed him for a lifetime. I can either make people and myself happy now, or i can give people/world something that is truly beneficial.

Hmm.. Interesting. Though to consider some action or contribution to be meaningful, you are actually creating the meaning for yourself and then HOPING it's meaning will be accepted by others. What vkut says may seem to be selfish but it may be more that he is acknowledging the subjectivity of meaning.

"Set a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, set a man ON fire and he is warm for the rest of his life" - Terry Pratchett

[zhangxy]

So, you're basing your idea that everything is meaningless on the words of a guy who doesn't know what he's talking about?

he said:
11 There is no remembrance of men of old,
and even those who are yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow.

But the only reason you know he said that is that he was remembered, ergo he doesn't know what he's saying. Actually, he sounds a bit like a whiny emo kid to me.

I think that whole speech was just a crass attempt to get a bunch of goat herders to give all their stuff to the church.

The whiny emo kid is actually King Solomon, regarded as a fairly wise and successful ruler (during his reign).

When Solomon said this, he was in a period when he turned away from God. Thus, he found that everything was meaningless. The point of this Bible passage is that meaning comes from God.

I think that if God exists, then there is meaning. If he doesn't exist, there can hardly be any meaning. What we find meaningful in our lives (benefiting society for example) is not really meaningful when you compare your life to something greater (say all of human history). And put human history under a geological scale and our meaning is further decreased. Put that under a cosmological scale and our meaning is further decreased. Soon, we realize that whatever we do is just a speck compared to much greater things. How do you "find" meaning in your life when you realize that we are so small of a speck? It seems that we don't "make" meaning, but rather that a divine being
"puts" meaning into our lives.

[blueback]

We are ephemeral, so if we dont leave an impact, then what good did we do.
By "good" I am assuming that you are not asking whether or not we acted morally during our lives, but rather how we positively affect other people's lives.

I would say that while we are he temporarily, we are not indispensable. Every person plays their part in the system. Even a person who is born, never marries, never has any kids, never does anything which is remembered, and then dies, was useful. In order to support themselves they had to have an effect on the world. That means that after they die the world is the way it is because of the effect they had on it.

Just because something is temporary doesn't mean it isn't useful. The scaffolding that supports the stones of an arch is temporary, but the existence of the arch implies the scaffolding that was necessary to erect it. At least, it does to those who know how arches are built. It's the same way with everything else. A transient worker who picks some fruit and moves on was necessary for that fruit to get to market and then onto a table and then to nourish someone.

Even a person who just marks time is useful in the sense that they keep the chain of evolutionary continuity going until an improvement has a chance to happen. A physics teacher who never contributes single idea to physics, but passes the same old ideas on verbatim, is useful in the sense that he is providing the ideas to new minds which then have a chance to contribute something new. Every link in the chain is valuable, not just the hooks on each end.

[Tocsin]

The whole dilemma of meaninglessness is a natural outcome of human reason.

The most basic assumption of human reason rests on the notion of cause and effect; event and outcome.

We live our in our minds, confined by the basic essence of storytelling; the need for a beginning and an end, or as with a fairy tale, from "once upon a time" to "and they lived happily ever after."

The condition of this reasoning demands a finite universe - the beginning and the end - so that we can look at the relationship between the two and then decide what the relationship - what the cause - what the purpose - and what the meaning between the two states is.

The notion of infinity or eternity defies any notion of finding "meaning."

If the story has no ultimate end, then how is it possible to find an ultimate meaning?

How can you define the moral of a fable that never ends?

The only thing that can be defined is a relative meaning circumscribed by picking a few arbitrary points to define a relative beginning and end - the cause and the effect of only a small piece of eternity - from a series of infinite points.

And the irony is that the basic notion of human reason demands that there be an eternity.

If everything that happens happens for a reason, then you are left with a chain of causes and effects that stretch back ad infinitum.

We may come up against barriers which we cannot percieve beyond, but there must be a cause, even if we seem incapable of discovering it.

If there is an original event for which there is no cause, a spontanious circumstance which is completely senseless and irrational, then reason - and reality - falls apart, for certainly if it is possible for an irrational event to spontaneously occur once, it could happen more than once.

[zibber]

I have a lot of trouble with these definitions of meaning. (Actually with the entire concept.) Why would meaning be influenced by the temporality of an actor? Why does impact equal meaning? Why is something meaningful if it changes the world? Why wouldn't something that doesn't change the world be meaningful?


I think that if God exists, then there is meaning. If he doesn't exist, there can hardly be any meaning. What we find meaningful in our lives (benefiting society for example) is not really meaningful when you compare your life to something greater (say all of human history). And put human history under a geological scale and our meaning is further decreased. Put that under a cosmological scale and our meaning is further decreased. Soon, we realize that whatever we do is just a speck compared to much greater things. How do you "find" meaning in your life when you realize that we are so small of a speck? It seems that we don't "make" meaning, but rather that a divine being
"puts" meaning into our lives.

We are a speck to greater things, which are a speck to even greater things. We are great things to specks. Yes, perception depends on scale. This doesn't say anything about meaning.

You are of the opinion that god is linked to meaning, but who is god to give meaning? If we are his creation, aren't we just meaningful to him? Think about that; is that satisfying? This would imply that meaning increases when it doesn't hinge on one being.

[Homini Lupus]

I see meaning as a creation of human mind: the senses give a structure to the noumenon then the mind tries ti give a structure to the input the senses send. We see 3, 2 and our mind thinks 1. We create meaning in order to control our future and, at times, rationalise our actions. If I'm true, meaning is self created and everything is meaningless only if you refuse to give it a meaning.

[Claptonian]

I everything in life meaningless since it is all gone when we die?
I am speaking specifically of possessions, not influence.
I think that it is. Anything that i own will never change the world, or change my family for that matter, therefore it is useless and meaningless.

I completely disagree with your definition of "meaningful" (I tend to agree with vkut's definition), but given your premise, possessions can still be meaningful because they can help facilitate influence.

For example, J.D. Salinger possessed (I assume) a typewriter which allowed him to write extremely influential books which will impact the world long after he's dead. The Beatles owned musical instruments which allowed them to write, perform and record extremely influential music which will impact the world long after they're all dead.

So possessions in and of themselves might not meet your standard of meaning, but some possessions can enable people to meet your standard.

[MichaelH]

I everything in life meaningless since it is all gone when we die?
I am speaking specifically of possessions, not influence. I think that it is. Anything that i own will never change the world, or change my family for that matter, therefore it is useless and meaningless.

You're combining two concepts here: is "everything" meaningless, and are "possessions" meaningless?

You're right that possessions are ultimately meaningless. Things do not bring happiness; they're not even a precursor. And things, in and of themselves, do not have any impact unless they are in relationship to people. (Even a volcano eruption has no "impact" unless it affects people in some way.) And to expand on Claptonian's point: Salinger's typewriter was important, but is no longer important except as a historical artifact. The same is true of the Beatle's music instruments; those things no longer have any part to play in revolutionizing music.

However, that does not make "everything" meaningless. People's lives have meaning, but not automatically. That meaning must be chosen and lived up to. Isaac Asimov's life had a meaning: to write books. Thomas Edison's life had meaning: to earn money through invention. Edison has a permanent place in history, at least as long as western history is remembered. Michelangelo's artwork continues to inspire and amaze centuries after being created. Bach's music is damn near eternal.

Things are being created today that will be remembered for centuries as well. It's just harder to tell what those are from today's perspective. Tolkein's Lord of the Rings shows every sign of surviving as a classic of literature.

Note what all the people named have in common. They had a spark of genius, yes, but they also devoted themselves to their craft wholeheartedly. They chose a purpose for their lives.

Choosing a purpose doesn't guarantee you long-lasting impact. But Michelangelo wouldn't be remembered if he spent his time watching plays and eating popcorn instead of creating.

[zibber]

Choosing a purpose doesn't guarantee you long-lasting impact. But Michelangelo wouldn't be remembered if he spent his time watching plays and eating popcorn instead of creating.

The only good that did him was during his lifetime (although I'm pretty sure I'd rather eat popcorn than be a tormented genius), as he stopped existing in 1564. We are forgetting this. What is the meaning of "impact" to the one who caused it if that person no longer exists?

If he happens to be in heaven, a scenario with such wide support that I guess we should consider it, does that make a difference? Heaven is already really super awesome, should we strive to make it a couple % more awesome? And isn't it a bit masturbatory to want to look down on Earth and see your statues and frescos being revered by millions of American and Japanese people with cameras?

[athenian200]

The presence or absence of meaning is determined by your personal definition of meaning. Meaning exists because we define it to exist.

This definition could be derived from religion, popular culture, one's own desires, or a self-derived system of values. Any of them can be a valid choice in my opinion, although I personally think the latter two result in the greatest fulfillment.

[MichaelH]

What is the meaning of "impact" to the one who caused it if that person no longer exists?

Great question. It also ties in to the original topic of the thread:

Is everything in life meaningless since it is all gone when we die?

Both these questions hit on a fundamental point.

You, personally, will die. You will cease to exist in this world. (Whether you go elsewhere is a discussion for a separate thread.) Nothing you do can change this fact. After death, you cannot enjoy your wealth, you cannot use your inventions, you cannot enjoy the fond regard others have for you. And yes, the "impact" you had has no meaning to you. You're a non-entity.

So the question becomes, what gives life meaning?

In a cosmic sense, nothing. The universe is indifferent whether you're a creative genius who transforms the world or a couch potato who catalogs every episode of every HBO series. Asking the universe to give life meaning is like walking up to the ocean and demanding it choose a career for you.

The terms we're using don't really apply on a cosmic scale. They do apply, however, on a human scale. We can't (currently) impact the Andromeda galaxy. But we can certainly affect our own lives, and the lives of the people around us.

How do I create meaning for my life personally? The best answer I have found is choosing to do something with it.

Again, this doesn't erase any of the facts previously stated. But it does, to paraphrase Ayn Rand, allow one's days to add up to a total rather than being a random dissipation.

The choice is not whether you can somehow change the nature of life, death, and your siginificance in the universe. The choice is how you life the life available to you.

I'm an ex-Christian and certainly don't want to start a string of Bible-quoting, but this applies to people universally: Ecclesiastes 9:10.
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

[True Rune]

Change could equal meaning? Even the smallest changes have a meaning, I suppose it goes with the "cause and effect" of things. When you cease to change, or change things, you lose your meaning. (Though on the grandest scale, an above poster described it well. No meaning.) Just shooting out random stuff here, personally I believe we all have worth and meaning to ourselves, others, and most importantly to God. Otherwise, I'm thinking what I've already posted, or that our meaning is to erase that which is ourselves.