What's the difference between a country and a gang?

[Samoan Corleone]

Really, is it just size?

EDIT:

Similarities:


They both have leaders.
They both have rules their members or citizens must adhere to.
They both have "turf".
They both have "colours" that their members "throw up" in pride.
Gang members and citizens are expected to display pride in their nation/gang.
Is there really much difference between displaying National pride and a Crip doing the C-Walk?


Differences:


You won't be put on a hit list if you go to another country (that's applicable to most countries).
Size.
I haven't really thought through the differences yet, but add your own if you can think of more.

[Silverity]

Aren't gangs usually funded by illegal activities? I'd like to think most countries aren't...well...entirely...funded by drugs, violence, theft, black market...selling people...selling pieces of people...etc.

They do have similarities, BUT...we might be able to extend this to most groupings or organizations of people. Sports teams have colours, pride, territory (the city they are located in), rules and leaders, right?

[Samoan Corleone]

Yes, it can be extended to other groups, including sports teams. I chose countries and gangs because one of them is something everyone is expected to identify with and love whereas the latter is something people are looked down on for identifying with. But yes, the illegal activity used for funding are, for the most part, something that separates the two. I read that the main purpose of most gangs is not to harm people, but to make money; which entails harming people, given their means.

[Silverity]

Yes, it can be extended to other groups, including sports teams. I chose countries and gangs because one of them is something everyone is expected to identify with and love whereas the latter is something people are looked down on for identifying with. But yes, the illegal activities used for funding are, for the most part, something that separates the two. I read that the main purpose of most gangs is not to harm people, but to make money; which entails harming people, given their means.

Interesting.

I think, also, citizens of a country aren't really expected to complete intiation rites or anything. If you're born in, you're in. Bit different for immigration but I think you'll get my gist :)

Oh, and a country is open about being a country. Most gang members don't broadcast who they are in public =P At least, the wanted ones don't.

[Autoptic]

You can't justify a country because it obeys its own rules or reject a gang because it doesn't obey the countries rules. The country doesn't obey the gangs rules either, and the gang obeys its rules. Both do tend to break their own rules in function, and both coerce offensively. Secrecy in the gang is simply the result of being the weaker group. If they were the larger group, they'd be the country, and the country would be the gang.

[Samoan Corleone]

Yeah, immigrating can be seen as a kind of initiation. Another thing that's interesting is the fighting. There's always something to gain when countries go to war, like resources or territory or money, which is basically the same reason gangs fight. You get all of these young people who are willing to die for their country while fighting another country. Then there are all of these young people who are willing to die for their gang while fighting the Baseball Furies or something.





Samoan Corleone added to this post, 4 minutes and 24 seconds later...

You can't justify a country because it obeys its own rules or reject a gang because it doesn't obey the countries rules. The country doesn't obey the gangs rules either, and the gang obeys its rules. Both do tend to break their own rules in function, and both coerce offensively. Secrecy in the gang is simply the result of being the weaker group. If they were the larger group, they'd be the country, and the country would be the gang.

Do you think there's a parasite-host type of relationship respectively between gangs and countries?

[Autoptic]

Do you think there's a parasite-host type of relationship respectively between gangs and countries?

Countries are largely composed of coherent blocs from bottom to top. Many are parasitic on others.

Groups playing political games with other like groups just don't normally get labeled gangs. Large enough groups get to call it's violence against others war or law enforcement and themselves a country when accepted into the game by other like groups. This is blatantly admitted by the international community and mentioned in their legal declarations.

[NoOne]

gangs do not pay taxes.

gangs do not build roads.

gangs do not vote for the dumbest person alive to lead them.

gangs buy better beer.

etc. etc. etc.

[Vagrant]

Really, is it just size?

EDIT:

Similarities:


They both have leaders.
They both have rules their members or citizens must adhere to.
They both have "turf".
They both have "colours" that their members "throw up" in pride.
Gang members and citizens are expected to display pride in their nation/gang.
Is there really much difference between displaying National pride and a Crip doing the C-Walk?


Differences:


You won't be put on a hit list if you go to another country (that's applicable to most countries).
Size.
I haven't really thought through the differences yet, but add your own if you can think of more.



The biggest difference, in my opinion, is how it treats its citizens. A country does not willingly harm its own citizens. Each citizen is aware of its rights, and their protection comes first in the country's mind. Most gangs really only care about their members, who are essentially soldiers.

[NoOne]

Oh, and a country cannot slip across the border, but a gang can.

[Autoptic]

The biggest difference, in my opinion, is how it treats its citizens. A country does not willingly harm its own citizens. Each citizen is aware of its rights, and their protection comes first in the country's mind. Most gangs really only care about their members, who are essentially soldiers.

So you're just saying gangs are usually fascist?

[catzmeow]

I read that the main purpose of most gangs is not to harm people, but to make money; which entails harming people, given their means.

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Primary focus of most gangs is criminal activity, whether that is for financial gain, to protect turf, to terrorize rivals, or to recruit new members.

Most countries aren't solely focused on criminal activity.

The difference between a country and a gang is the same difference between a football team and a gang. Members of a football team (like the Utes, for instance) might commit crimes, but that isn't the focus of the team. It's a matter of degree and focus. Gangs are tremendously more criminally involved than any other similar group of 12-24 year olds.

There is no single, generally accepted definition of a “gang.” State and local jurisdictions tend to develop their own definitions. The term “street gang” is often used interchangeably with “youth gang” as well as “criminal street gang,” with the latter explicitly denoting the element of criminal activity found almost universally in gang-related legislation (see Compilation of Gang-Related Legislation). However, the term “street gang” carries two specific meanings that increase its practical value. First, it suggests a common feature of gangs; they commonly have a street presence. Street socialization is a key feature of adolescent gangs (Vigil, 2002). Second, this term also refers to “street crimes,” that is, serious crimes that occur on the streets and that often are of concern to citizens and policymakers, including rape, robbery, aggravated assault, gun crimes, and murder.

The following criteria are widely accepted among researchers for classifying groups as gangs (Decker and Curry, 2003; Esbensen et al., 2001; Klein, 1995b; Miller, 1992; Spergel, 1995):

•The group has three or more members, generally aged 12–24.
•Members share an identity, typically linked to a name, and often other symbols.
•Members view themselves as a gang, and they are recognized by others as a gang.
•The group has some permanence and a degree of organization.
•The group is involved in an elevated level of criminal activity.
Findings from the National Youth Gang Survey (NYGS) show that law enforcement agencies report group criminality to be of greatest importance and the presence of leadership of least importance in defining a gang in their view (National Youth Gang Center, 2009, see Defining Gangs and Designating Gang Membership).

Some street gang definitions incorporate elements of organized crime (see FAQ No. 8: Are gangs involved in organized crime?). For example, a number of states use the following definition devised by the California legislature, often with minor modifications: “A Criminal Street Gang is any ongoing organization, association, or group of three or more persons, whether formal or informal, having as one of its primary activities the commission of criminal acts” (Street Terrorism Enforcement and Prevention Act, 1988, California Penal Code sec. 186.22[f]). For additional information, see Compilation of Gang-Related Legislation.

Finally, a question about which I actually know something. Being an INTJ, you wanted a scientific/legal definition, right? ;)

[Vagrant]

So you're just saying gangs are usually fascist?

They're usually authoritarian in some way. Maybe not fascist with a single leader, but the head honchos may be oligarchical.

[NoOne]

I am simple minded, I believe that relation to self is altogether inadmissible.

If I equate country and gang, then it would not be possible to have a country that had gangs nor gangs that lived in a country.

[aquapong]

gangs do not pay taxes.

gangs do not build roads.

gangs do not vote for the dumbest person alive to lead them.

gangs buy better beer.

etc. etc. etc.

Gangs provide assured mutual protection, something the Supreme Court has ruled the country does not need to give to the individual citizen, but only the public as a whole. Gangs provide what they perceive to be role models. Gangs provide a smaller scale acceptance of the individual. Sure, my neighbor is an America, but that doesn't mean I want to go hang out with him. But if I'm in MS13 and my neighbor is in MS13, we're definitely going to hang out. I'm in a gang every day, while I'm an American a few times a week.

[catzmeow]

Gangs provide assured mutual protection, something the Supreme Court has ruled the country does not need to give to the individual citizen, but only the public as a whole. Gangs provide what they perceive to be role models. Gangs provide a smaller scale acceptance of the individual. Sure, my neighbor is an America, but that doesn't mean I want to go hang out with him. But if I'm in MS13 and my neighbor is in MS13, we're definitely going to hang out. I'm in a gang every day, while I'm an American a few times a week.


Actually, belonging to a gang significantly increases the odds of becoming a victim of violence. Ironic, eh?

[MrDoom]

The biggest difference, in my opinion, is how it treats its citizens. A country does not willingly harm its own citizens. Each citizen is aware of its rights, and their protection comes first in the country's mind.

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I have had this thought as well, that the only real difference between a tax-collecting State, and a Mafia protection racket, is scope.

[Vagrant]

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I have had this thought as well, that the only real difference between a tax-collecting State, and a Mafia protection racket, is scope.

Because internet memes are the best way of debating.

[Samoan Corleone]

Groups playing political games with other like groups just don't normally get labeled gangs. Large enough groups get to call it's violence against others war or law enforcement and themselves a country when accepted into the game by other like groups. This is blatantly admitted by the international community and mentioned in their legal declarations.

I agree with this.

gangs do not pay taxes.

For the lower-end guys, "kicking up to the boss" and being extorted can be equated to tax. The territory held by a gang can be seen as a sort of nation within a nation.

gangs do not build roads.

They appease their communities in other ways, by giving out turkeys on Thanksgiving, giving candy to children, hosting social gatherings, etc.

gangs do not vote for the dumbest person alive to lead them.

John Gotti is considered by some to have been a complete moron who was partly responsible for his own downfall by making himself so accessible to the media, but I get that you were taking a shot at Bush and pointing out that some gangs don't have an election process. Then again, some countries don't either.

Primary focus of most gangs is criminal activity, whether that is for financial gain, to protect turf, to terrorize rivals, or to recruit new members.

Yes, but would you say that protecting turf, terrorising rivals, and recruiting members is ultimately for financial gain, or protection of financial interests? Losing turf would lose money, provided there's some kind of racket or a "protected" property there. Losing face in front of the rivals would make a gang look weak, and they need to look strong and menacing so that their underlings don't leave and their extortees would still be fearful of them and choose not to go to another gang for protection. Gangs need to look secure to its members. Also, more members means more money makers (no disgusting "member" puns are allowed).

Most countries aren't solely focused on criminal activity.

I'd think most countries ultimately act out of interest for their own financial gain, though, which would liken them to gangs if my above claim is right. If what people say is true, GWB didn't send troops to Iraq out of the goodness of his heart and his love for the Iraqi people, he went there for oil, and possibly to protect his own turf as he claimed to be searching for any weapons of mass destruction that could've been used against him.

Finally, a question about which I actually know something. Being an INTJ, you wanted a scientific/legal definition, right? ;)

Not really, as I was only an average scientist at best. ;)

[CycleBreaker]

I've seen it mentioned twice now... "gangs are formed around criminal activity". Well who defines what "criminal activity" is? Why the biggest gang of course, which is called a country.

[Freedom Geek]

Size. Perceived legitimacy. The fact that governments are needed to stop worse gangs from forming.

[refuse]

gang : family :: country : commodity

[Samoan Corleone]

I've seen it mentioned twice now... "gangs are formed around criminal activity". Well who defines what "criminal activity" is? Why the biggest gang of course, which is called a country.

I agree. "Criminal activity" is considered something which separates gangs from the rest of society. Yet, there are countries that were originally colonies. These former colonies separated themselves from their empires. Is that not rebelling? Does that not also constitue some kind of "criminal activity"?

[Warrior]

The things you describe as them having in common are just things that any group have. Gangs, churches, nations, sports teams, states, schools, politcal parties, families (and the list goes on) all have those things in common. Your question seems to boil down to "what is the difference between any two groups?"

[Samoan Corleone]

The things you describe as them having in common are just things that any group have. Gangs, churches, nations, sports teams, states, schools, politcal parties, families (and the list goes on) all have those things in common. Your question seems to boil down to "what is the difference between any two groups?"

Yes, but as I wrote before, I specifically chose countries and gangs, as all people are expected to identify with and love their country, whereas people who identify with gangs are looked down on.

[Shorgenfunkel]

Aren't gangs usually funded by illegal activities? I'd like to think most countries aren't...well...entirely...funded by drugs, violence, theft, black market...selling people...selling pieces of people...etc.

Laws are determined by countries.

[smabers]

You are really talking about the difference between a government and a gang. In fact, there's not much difference. A government offers you protection in exchange for a kickback, or taxes. Like a gang, a government uses the threat of violence to impose its laws on you.

[Samoan Corleone]

I used the term "country" as I'm likening being a citizen of a country to being a member of a gang. Not every citizen is a member of the government, although the government can be seen as a kind of gang also.

[MrDoom]

Because internet memes are the best way of debating.

Certainly an internet meme cannot stand up to an unverifiable assertion easily countered with examples like North Korea or the former USSR, or for that matter the vast majority of states that have ever existed.

[Toolmaker]

My best friend served in Desert Storm.

He was standing in the Saudi desert when the Air-War started. He said he watched thousands of jets, planes, helicopters, missiles, and artillery all scream over his head for days on end.

He described it as the worlds biggest gang fight.

[rufsketch1]

It's silly to point out that gangs thrive on criminal activity while countries don't. If you compare the two as separate entities, then you have to understand that it's impossible for both to commit any "criminal" activity.

The gang may be involved in "criminal" activity by the standards of the country it resides in (drugs may be illegal) but not by the gangs own internal law system. Likewise, A country may do things that a gang would consider a crime, such as imprisoning one of the gangs members. Countries similarly do things which are considered criminal in the eyes of other countries.