Girl to Woman? Rites of passage, what it all means etc

[lincoln]

This is partly in response to the thread about boyhood to manhood transition.
I found myself wanting to write about my experiences/what I think it means to 'grow up', but didn't want to impose myself. So, this is for the ladies and guys to comment on.

What do you ladies think you had to 'go through' in order to become a woman? What does it mean to you to be a woman, is it a relief, a burden, a joy, all of those..? What are our rites of passage? And if you know of any in other cultures, please post them, I think it would be of interest to many.

I was taking an anthropology course once and the teacher asked us to name the things that men are usually responsible for in society; like certain traits that men our thought to possess that are positive, and specific duties and roles they have in society, in their family...Well, we had a whole laundry list of things for the guys. Then, the teacher asked us to do the same for women. Crickets entered the room at that point, really. I think that the majority of students in the class were women too. We did establish the caretaker role eventually (thanks to yours truly), but even I didn't have too much to say on the matter.

So, this may have a lot of potential, considering...=)

Happy posting everone

[Vagrant]

It takes a man to make a girl into a woman.

/badrunnningjokeorcatch22whicheveronefloatsyourboat

Seriously though, it'd be the same thing as was said for the men thread -- maturity.

[Silverity]

The thread title reminded me of that absolutely horrible Britney Speares song... errrrgh.

I'm in agreeance with Vagrant, of course. I don't think this topic needs to be separated by gender really. Biopsychosocial maturation. Picking up culturual responsibilities, all that good stuff. Finishing puberty helps.

I'm going to take your question and add another piece to it: ladies and gents of the forum, WHEN (i.e.: what age) did you feel like you had become a man or a woman? Or maybe you're not there yet, and that's fine too :) What were your indicators?

[Obsidean]

When she gets her period?

[Vagrant]

When she gets her period?

MAZELTOV!

/slaps

>.>

I'm going to take your question and add another piece to it: ladies and gents of the forum, WHEN (i.e.: what age) did you feel like you had become a man or a woman? Or maybe you're not there yet, and that's fine too :) What were your indicators?

I still feel like I can always mature, even if I feel mature now.

[paperclip]

when I stopped blaming others for my problems? I'm not sure everyone ever becomes a woman or man, some methods of thinking will never allow a person to transform incrementally overtime.

I'm not sure its about "men" and "women" but responsible citizens, people within a society that are at least somewhat responsible for the state of that society and thus themselves...

[Talkahuano]

I grew up when I went to college and learned to get along with others, and learned to handle things on my own. I guess I feel like I can be a productive member of society now.
Also I put on 12 lbs, which made me look rather good. I feel like more of a woman now that I'm not skin and bones.

[firebee]

When she gets her period?

I kinda think that's overrated. If nothing else, because there is a substantial gap between the age of menarche (ten-ish) and the age at which a person has the social role of "adult" (late 20s). Without a change in social role, the only transition involved is "yesterday I was not bleeding".

[zibber]

I'm going to be the boring guy, but as with "men", the notion of maturity generally involves a sense of self-responsibility and something resembling mental balance.

Again, while typing that, it strikes me that maybe half of the "adults" I've known truly possess these qualities. So.. maybe we need to ease the definition a little so as not to exclude these suckers ;)

[EmilyEvenstar]

Typically, I guess it's when she gets her period, but even then it's a bit risky. In my opinion, a girl becomes a woman through life experience and changes trough her life that cause her to be more mature and responsible.

[Prunesquallor]

No arbitrary event. Just gradual growing maturity. Which doesn't always come, to be honest...

[SelfMadeBum]

I got my period at 9/10 years old, so that's definitely not it. Although biological development is one small part, I think it has little to do with actual maturity and the ability to take responsibility for yourself.

[Fanowene]

It definitely helps when people stop calling you a "girl". I don't actually know when that happens in American culture. Once you get married?

In Switzerland I basically was an adult/woman at age 18. I definitely wasn't called a girl anymore. Mostly I was called a woman, or something along the lines of "young lady". Then I came to the U.S. when I was 19 and all of a sudden I was a kid again (which was awesome; that's when I started to really get to know myself). Now I think I'm maturing enough to consider myself an adult (the fact that I'm 21 really helps), but people here still call me a girl... I wish they didn't.

[The Psyentist]

I grew up when I went to college and learned to get along with others, and learned to handle things on my own. I guess I feel like I can be a productive member of society now.
Also I put on 12 lbs, which made me look rather good. I feel like more of a woman now that I'm not skin and bones.

Hm...I still refer to my body type as being that of a twelve-year-old boy.

I kinda think that's overrated. If nothing else, because there is a substantial gap between the age of menarche (ten-ish) and the age at which a person has the social role of "adult" (late 20s). Without a change in social role, the only transition involved is "yesterday I was not bleeding".

All these people with menarche at 10! I had mine when I was 13...and yeah, I was TOTALLY mature when starting my teen years. Haha. Just kidding.

But as I developed, grew up, I began to feel less like a woman and more like an androgynous mind. In that sense I don't think I will ever grow up to be a "woman". I'm a woman by biology, but my transition seems to be more along the lines of child to adult rather than along the lines of a particular gender. Maybe that's because I'm not really attracted to the opposite sex. And I could consider that part of the development of womanhood (girl to woman; girl has a crush, woman has deeper relationships, gets married). I've grown into a more rational being and rationality does not have to bother with gender as much.

[daydreamer]

i like zibber's ideal and what psyentist says about child- adult. i don't really feel any more womanly than manly, except for the fact that i am a woman. for the most part i thought becoming an adult was learning how to handle things, take care of myself, on my own. the thing about that is sometimes the course of life is really good at showing me that i cannot handle things on my own, i can only just do my best.

i do however feel certain intuitive rites of passages. for instance, upon turning 40, i felt, finally all bets were off when my parents say something patronizing. they have had plenty of time to get used to the idea i'm not a child anymore... no more miss nice daughter - i'm 40 years old for crying out loud ! lol (i enjoy telling them that with regard to whatever the current argument about me we are having lol) being able to tell off coworkers, employers, and people younger than me were all different rites of passages lol that were difficult but necessary for me. financial independence, home ownership, career path, seemed trivial and straightforward by comparison.

[mrStevens]

To the OP. I think people are getting confused because your post title doesn't match the questions you are posing in the post itself.

In the title you are asking about rites of passage and how society differentiates between a girl and a woman. In your post you seem to be contrasting male and female gender roles in society.

[smabers]

I'm not sure if this is going to help anybody, but there's a quiz on the internet you can take to figure out if you're a girl or a woman,

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[Silverity]

I'm not sure if this is going to help anybody, but there's a quiz on the internet you can take to figure out if you're a girl or a woman,

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"Congratulations, you've made it to adulthood.
You're emotionally mature, responsible, and unlikely to act out.
You accept that life is hard - and do your best to keep things upbeat.
This makes you the perfect girlfriend... or even wife! "

Sweet, I made it. I think of adulthood in levels though, I am a young adult, I still have a LOT to learn, but I recognize that I'm not a child or an adolescent anymore, I have a strong sense of identity and responsibility, I'm independent and self sufficient, but there is so much more to experience and accomplish. I imagine I will hit Adulthood: Level 2 once I have established a career and a bit more stability in terms of residence (I move wherever my education takes me, currently).

[smabers]

"Congratulations, you've made it to adulthood.
You're emotionally mature, responsible, and unlikely to act out.
You accept that life is hard - and do your best to keep things upbeat.
This makes you the perfect girlfriend... or even wife! "

Sweet, I made it. I think of adulthood in levels though, I am a young adult, I still have a LOT to learn, but I recognize that I'm not a child or an adolescent anymore, I have a strong sense of identity and responsibility, I'm independent and self sufficient, but there is so much more to experience and accomplish. I imagine I will hit Adulthood: Level 2 once I have established a career and a bit more stability in terms of residence (I move wherever my education takes me, currently).

Yeah there's probably more to it than just not eating the whole box of chocolates when the opportunity presents itself. I don't really know anything about what makes a real woman because everything I know I learned from watching Maury Povich while I was unemployed.

According to Maury, being a real woman means not blaming a man for getting you pregnant when you know that he isn't the real father.

[DanteFalling]

When she gets her period?

Tons of girls begin menstruation at 8 or 9.

[Deliberator]

When I first went to college and turned 19 I still felt like a teenager. That year I got my first kiss, and now four and a half years later I am married with a degree, a full-time job, and a baby (almost). What really did it I think was getting toughened up by my husband; I really owe it to him to make me into a 'real woman', or at least a real adult. My identity as a woman has little to do with my overall maturity though... confidence is just as important for males maturing from boys to men, if not moreso in our society.

So I'm not really sure what my girl-to-woman thing would be. I know that I first starting feeling like a woman when I was fifteen, when men first started paying attention to me. I became considerably less childish then, started plucking my eyebrows and wearing more adult clothing. I was still pretty immature obviously.

Perhaps it's this whole wife-and-mother thing that really puts the icing on the cake of womanhood (or the nail in the coffin depending on your outlook). Being a wife and mother is all about self-sacrifice, and I think that is the ultimate destiny of a woman as traditionally pertains to her sex.



All these people with menarche at 10! I had mine when I was 13...

I can beat that, I was a month shy of 15. Apparently 15 or 16 used to be the typical age of menarche about 100 years ago. Makes you wonder what's in the water...


I'm not sure if this is going to help anybody, but there's a quiz on the internet you can take to figure out if you're a girl or a woman,

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Wow, couldn't even get past the first question because I'm so much of a woman.

[PortInStorm]

Hmm, that sentence of yours "that is the ultimate destiny of a woman" kinda sticks in my craw a little. I think self-sacrifice is the ultimate destiny of both sexes and that it can come in many forms.

oh, and I got mine at 16 and by that time, could've sworn I'd never have children (I was so anxious and sick of waiting). Seems like I was right, but not for that reason.

[Antares]

I don't see why there has to be a cut off date, but I guess that depends on your definition of a woman. When people start calling you "ma'am" or "miss", you know you're one step closer. My first night spent with a man didn't make me feel like a woman, I can tell you that much, so to me, it doesn't take a "man". It made me feel like a slut (even though it didn't amount to much than some snogging, but really...). What really makes me feel like a woman nowadays is that I'm making so many decisions concerning my life myself. I know what's best for me, and I don't need anyone to tell me what I should do. I started observing my calendar, keeping a to-do list, exercising regularly, cooking occasionally, managing my own finances, figured out what I want in life, did my chores (speaking of which, I should go put away my dishes); I basically slapped my wayward life into some sort of healthy order.

[Bluesea]

Interesting to differentiate between adulthood - what things are associated with growing from child to young and then mature adult - and womanhood / manhood. There will be crossovers from adulthood to woman/manhood but what is not part of adulthood and is part of woman/manhood that is a clear marker of change from girl/boy? Maybe things like gender development, taking on gender responsibilities over generic individual responsibility, taking on gender roles, using one's gender experience to mentor younger people of the same gender on gender issues, more sophisticated gender awareness and consciousness?

[Deliberator]

Hmm, that sentence of yours "that is the ultimate destiny of a woman" kinda sticks in my craw a little.

Same here to be honest. But if in our culture to be a woman (and not just a "person") is to be a wife and mother then self-sacrifice is what it's all about. Same is true for husband and fathers I guess but traditionally speaking I don't think they sacrifice as much. Again, this is speaking totally in context of societal tradition as I see it... I grew up with a progressive mother but she still always ended up doing way more work than my dad ever did. Same with my husband's mother. I hope things change.

The good part is that, compared to many other mammals we human mothers don't have quite as much unshared responsibility to raise the second generation. It's crazy in the wild to think that not only does a female *insert name of carnivorous mammal here* have to fend for herself while pregnant, she labors and births by herself and raises her young completely by herself. It's pretty badass, and also makes you look at the males and wonder "what the hell good are they?"

[Stratego]

What do you ladies think you had to 'go through' in order to become a woman? What does it mean to you to be a woman, is it a relief, a burden, a joy, all of those..? What are our rites of passage? And if you know of any in other cultures, please post them, I think it would be of interest to many.



First, there is the tangible. A girl grows into a woman phsyically, and makes the transition from child to emerging adult when she hits puberty and all those wonderful things start to happen. She is not yet a women until both her body and brain reach full growth.

Second, there are the untangibles. A girl does not become a women until she develops a sense of herself within the larger world. She does not think only of her limited sphere of reality but globally. She also develops a sense of responsibility towards others, whether they are her younger siblings or her friends of people she knows. She develops emotional maturity; she develops interpersonal skills and psychological balance. Her self esteem is normal and healthy, her perception is also balanced and healthy, her opinion of herself of others is reasonable and healthy--

As lastly there is the inescapable ingrediant for womenhood: experience. There is no substitute for experience and time. A woman is someone who has experienced pain and harship, happiness and joy in the same measure. Someone who through trial and joy both has fully faced herself in all her strenghts and weaknesses alike. She has seen herself in the thick of sorrow and trying times and finds herself stronger afterwards, better able to face the same in the future. It's more than learning to cope, it's truly facing herself and fully comprehending her weaknesses and how they affect her life and the lives of others.

The same applies to times of joy or happiness. She fully realizes her strenghts and particular talents and situates them appropriately within her worldview. She recognizes that she has something to offer, that she can be someone fully in her own right, and that her identity and happiness do not hinge upon whether or not she has a man in her life or bears children.

Sexuality is a part of it. It's a tangible and intangible combined. To be clear I do not buy into the medieval line of thinking where a woman is not a woman until she pops her cherry--that's just sexist bullshit. A woman can be a woman without ever having intercourse. By sexuality, I mean a recognition and understanding of her desires and needs; the emotional maturity to control her desire when appropriate and express it freely when appropriate is a great part of a mature sexual identity.

I'm not saying that a women can't have a healthy ego, cannot demand her pleasures or pursue her vices as she wants. No. I do not advocate a passive, please-everyone doormat type of woman when I suggest control and maturity--but someone who continues destructive behavior towards themselves and others, moreover when they recognize their great capacity to harm themselves and others and yet recklessly continue anyway, then they are not only stupid, they are immature.

-My take-

[smabers]

The good part is that, compared to many other mammals we human mothers don't have quite as much unshared responsibility to raise the second generation. It's crazy in the wild to think that not only does a female *insert name of carnivorous mammal here* have to fend for herself while pregnant, she labors and births by herself and raises her young completely by herself. It's pretty badass, and also makes you look at the males and wonder "what the hell good are they?"

Yeah I often wonder that myself, what the hell good am I? The only thing I really have to do is get a woman pregnant, and it's not like there's a lack of males out there besides me who can do that.

[Stratego]

Yeah I often wonder that myself, what the hell good am I? The only thing I really have to do is get a woman pregnant, and it's not like there's a lack of males out there besides me who can do that.

While we are animals, we are wholly unique animals, so I would hesitate to take our cue or any deeper meaning from that quarter...

A man is more than sperm carrier in human society, just as women are more than a womb. I'm not a female beaver (though that term often applies to women, or at least part of woman :laugh:) so why compare myself to her? I'm not saying pity the dumb stupid animals or implying that humans are far superior to our animal brethern, but we're really not the same thing. Apples and oranges.

[smabers]

A man is more than sperm carrier in human society, just as women are more than a womb.

Please explain.

[Stratego]

@ smabers
Think of the arts; music, painting, ballet. Think also on the fruit of human invention and intellect; the atomic bomb, vaccination, indoor plumbling.

We're obviously capable of living within, and in spite of, our environment and the forces of nature. (When you think of a nuclear weapon, we're also capable of bending the laws of the universe to suit our needs)

Animals, though equally capable of surviving in harsh environments, are primarily bound by instinct, lack language and writing, and most are umaware of their mortality.

[karenann33]

At 18 I moved out and had my own place. I was completely on my own and felt grown up. It wasn't until I hit my stride at 40 that I began to really feel like I've come into my own and am "mature". Sure I was a woman way before that but I still had those tendencies to want "mommy" to come and make it all better. Now I AM "mommy" and that has what has finally caused me I think to cross over from girl to mature woman.

[Deliberator]

Yeah I often wonder that myself, what the hell good am I? The only thing I really have to do is get a woman pregnant, and it's not like there's a lack of males out there besides me who can do that.

Well see, my point is that we aren't the same as other mammals (thank god). We are group animals, and in groups males are quite useful. I mean hell, you could hardly say that men haven't contributed to the success and development of the human race. So yes, it's like even though women actually make it all happen when it comes to regeneration, men have proven important in stabilizing/improving the environment so that the women can do so. heheh, men are our helpers!

This is of course coming from a woman who is the breadwinner and whose husband will be the primary caregiver of her child once it is born, so I'm obviously not saying these generalizations must be or should be the case given our current liberalized society.

[tinapay]

The thread title reminded me of that absolutely horrible Britney Speares song... errrrgh. Wahahahahahaha! :laugh:

I'm in agreeance with Vagrant, of course. I don't think this topic needs to be separated by gender really. Biopsychosocial maturation. Picking up culturual responsibilities, all that good stuff. Finishing puberty helps.

I'm going to take your question and add another piece to it: ladies and gents of the forum, WHEN (i.e.: what age) did you feel like you had become a man or a woman? Or maybe you're not there yet, and that's fine too :) What were your indicators?

I agree.

When we stop pulling the cute act, I guess.

[smabers]

Well see, my point is that we aren't the same as other mammals (thank god). We are group animals, and in groups males are quite useful. I mean hell, you could hardly say that men haven't contributed to the success and development of the human race. So yes, it's like even though women actually make it all happen when it comes to regeneration, men have proven important in stabilizing/improving the environment so that the women can do so. heheh, men are our helpers!

This is of course coming from a woman who is the breadwinner and whose husband will be the primary caregiver of her child once it is born, so I'm obviously not saying these generalizations must be or should be the case given our current liberalized society.

So would you say that men are necessary to our society, or could women get along without them? I'm talking about besides providing sperm.

[Kisai]

I kinda think that's overrated. If nothing else, because there is a substantial gap between the age of menarche (ten-ish) and the age at which a person has the social role of "adult" (late 20s). Without a change in social role, the only transition involved is "yesterday I was not bleeding".

You may think it overrated, but many socities have an initiation for boys at 11-13-ish, but none for girls, because the period is the signifying change for girls into women. A ritual for women is superfluous.

I don't know if I'd rather have some guys holding me down and circumcising me while they tell me the tribal secrets or have a period for the rest of my life. Tough choice.





Kisai added to this post, 1 minutes and 20 seconds later...

So would you say that men are necessary to our society, or could women get along without them? I'm talking about besides providing sperm.

Men are necessary for dying first. Throwing your women into battle means low birthrate.

[Deliberator]

So would you say that men are necessary to our society, or could women get along without them? I'm talking about besides providing sperm.

Yeah, I'd agree with Kisai. Males are useful most notably for being more willing to take risks and put themselves on the line. Males are naturally very protective, and in their own way look to protect 'their' women and children against all sorts of dangers in our environment, whether they be other people, the elements, or other species. Since we don't need as many of them for reproductive purposes as we do women, they are more expendable.

[ranwayslo]

I am going to give my impression based on my sisters.

My younger sister took a lot longer to "mature" into what I would consider a woman, but my older sister has matured into a "less complete" woman.

My younger sister is a complete and whole person, there is no doubt that she loves and relies on her husband. But there is also no doubt that should tragedy strike she will be more than able to continue on her own and do an excellent job rearing her children. She has the nobility and sense of purpose that most of us would expect to find among adults but more than that she has the maturity to lead her children and sometimes her older backwards and stubborn brother through the pitfalls of life. I suppose that in my opinion that is what makes an adult out of a child...the willingness and capability to lead, aid, and assist those who are less able.

My older sister is much the same...but in a less complete way. My older sister would not last a day without her husband to make decisions for her...and don't bash me for saying it. He is abusive to her. She found that she was unable to leave him because without him she can't make a decision. Even for the sake of her children. The only reason that I am willing to qualify her as a woman and not as a child is that she has enough maturity to accept responsibility for her situation and admit that she has plenty of resources (most of the family including our younger sister and myself working in law enforcement) at her disposal should she be willing to leave him and learn some independence.

My two cents and hope that I'm not intruding.

[zudusu]

Upon graduating high school (age 18) I moved out of my parents' house, got a job and supported myself. I also dropped my college courses halfway through my first semester. I married at age 20. At age 22 I realized I had to go to college to get a better job and both my husband and I went back to school. By age 26, I had a college degree, a better job, was a homeowner and was starting to feel like an adult. At age 27 I got pregnant and had my first baby. While I hadn't exactly considered myself a "girl" I also didn't really think of myself as a "woman" until I was a mother and breastfeeding a baby and devoting most of my life to caring for a child. So for me, at age 27, I felt like both an adult and a woman.

However, my good friend had a baby at 19 and I can't even pretend I considered her either an adult or a woman at that time. For me, everything was in place and in line for the baby to make me feel like I had fully transitioned from child to adult and girl to woman. Of course, I have childless female friends who have great careers, etc. who I consider to be both adults and women, so babies make no difference in their situations. Oh, and the friend who had the baby at 19? She's now 37 and has been so dependant on her family for both financial help and support I would have a hard time ranking her as having reached adulthood. But as the mother of four I would also have a hard time calling her a girl. But strangely, I would have no problem calling her perpetually unemployed 42-yr-old husband a boy.