MBTI and Tarot suits

[coffeeloverfreak]

Okay, I know this isn't exactly an original observation. And I don't believe in Tarot or astrology or anything like that. But has anyone else noticed the close correlation between MBTI typology and the four "suits" or "elements" of the Tarot (which also correspond to the four elements of the world)?

These four archetypes (water, air, fire and earth) are so widely used in literature, history, books, movies, fashion, and even in our interactions with one another.

This correlation works well using the functional pairs:

NFs (intuitive feeling) = Cups = Water
NTs (intuitive thinking) = Swords = Air
SFs (sensing feeling) = Wands = Fire
STs (sensing thinking) = Coins/Pentacles = Earth

It could also work using Keirsey:

NFs (idealists) = Cups = Water
NTs (rationals) = Swords = Air
SPs (artisans) = Wands = Fire
SJs (guardians) = Coins/Pentacles = Earth

Funny because when astrology was "in", I always thought it was interesting that I'm an earth sign, and always seemed to identify with either earth or air signs and qualities. Being an IxTJ would fit with either one of those, I suppose.

[Firelie]

That's interesting, though for me it wouldn't correspond very well, being a Cancer (water) and an INTJ.

[Zilal]

That's interesting, though for me it wouldn't correspond very well, being a Cancer (water) and an INTJ.

Dude, I'm also a cancer. I don't think anything of astrology but I have a friend who does, and who insists I'm a classic cancer. I don't see any connection between cancer and INTJ!

Whoops, that wasn't about tarot.

I don't know anything about tarot, but I have a friend who used to use it. He didn't believe it had predictive powers. He just thought that using it would allow him to see patterns that already existed in his life which he hadn't noticed before.

[Jgib5328]

Oh god, stop with this mysticism please. Astrology is complete crap and has nothing to do with mbti.

[coffeeloverfreak]

Just to clarify:

I wasn't saying it's necessarily correlated with your type. Your astrological sign is an accident and of course the whole theory is BS.

I was saying that the earth, fire, water and air archetypes show up all throughout literature and fiction, as well as in the real world, and I believe that those archetypes - which are so prevalant in astrology - are correlated to personality type.

Whatever your sign happens to be, your true element is probably the one that relates to your MBTI type.

[Jgib5328]

Just to clarify:

I wasn't saying it's necessarily correlated with your type. Your astrological sign is an accident and of course the whole theory is BS.

I was saying that the earth, fire, water and air archetypes show up all throughout literature and fiction, as well as in the real world, and I believe that those archetypes - which are so prevalant in astrology - are correlated to personality type.

Whatever your sign happens to be, your true element is probably the one that relates to your MBTI type.

Yeah ok, that's cool then. I'm just sick of those morons into astrology and them thinking that it has anything to do with your MBTI type.

[Antares]

I'm Pisces, and I always thought that sign corresponds to INFP. My personality is a cross between Virgo and Scorpio, but of course, I'm quite skeptic about this whole thing, astrology and all.

[pavman]

Umm, this doesn't surprise me. Jung was big into the occult, from what I've read (and its far too late/early to go digging for a link).

[Sahlain Anteth]

I don't believe astrology or tarot hold any validity, but elemental symbolism has been used in mythology/literature for centuries.

JK Rowling (author of Harry Potter Series) said that she identified each of the school houses with one of the four and designed the house common rooms accordingly. Thus Slytherin = water; Ravenclaw = air; Gryffindor = fire; Hufflepuff = earth

[coffeeloverfreak]

JK Rowling (author of Harry Potter Series) said that she identified each of the school houses with one of the four and designed the house common rooms accordingly. Thus Slytherin = water; Ravenclaw = air; Gryffindor = fire; Hufflepuff = earth

Yeah, I mentioned this in the Harry Potter thread. Interesting, particularly the Slytherin/water association.

[Paul V]

I'm an earth sign, but I identify myself with Water. More precisely, with Ice. It's somewhat of an obsession of mine.

[Antares]

Yeah, I mentioned this in the Harry Potter thread. Interesting, particularly the Slytherin/water association.

Haha. I think it's quite logical that Slytherins should be water, except they aren't sensitive. Water signs, underneath their calm exterior can be cunning and explosive, like the description for Scorpio, they are very good at appearing cold and aloof, when in fact they care very much. Also, the Slytherin common room is underground, and it reminds me of caves, which are somewhat wet. The common room is also near the lake 0___o

I'm an Water sign, but I relate more to Air.

[coffeeloverfreak]

I'll just redirect the Harry Potter conversation to here (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), in interest of not going too far off on a tangent in this thread.

And I do find it interesting that there are so many different ways that the elements have been correlated to personality types. There's a lot of literature trying to correlate the Jungian types to the four elements, particularly in their various ancient Greek forms. And it's odd that, while most seem to use the associations I've posted above (SP=fire, NF=water, NT=air, SJ=earth), I've seen all sorts of different combinations and permutations.

All that to say that it's probably a stretch to make any of these associations. Like math, personality typing is merely convention. We can slice and dice the population any which way.

[Agile]

Okay, I know this isn't exactly an original observation. And I don't believe in Tarot or astrology or anything like that. But has anyone else noticed the close correlation between MBTI typology and the four "suits" or "elements" of the Tarot (which also correspond to the four elements of the world)?

These four archetypes (water, air, fire and earth) are so widely used in literature, history, books, movies, fashion, and even in our interactions with one another.

This correlation works well using the functional pairs:

NFs (intuitive feeling) = Cups = Water
NTs (intuitive thinking) = Swords = Air
SFs (sensing feeling) = Wands = Fire
STs (sensing thinking) = Coins/Pentacles = Earth

It could also work using Keirsey:

NFs (idealists) = Cups = Water
NTs (rationals) = Swords = Air
SPs (artisans) = Wands = Fire
SJs (guardians) = Coins/Pentacles = Earth

Funny because when astrology was "in", I always thought it was interesting that I'm an earth sign, and always seemed to identify with either earth or air signs and qualities. Being an IxTJ would fit with either one of those, I suppose.

I like the way the symbolism matches up. The Kiersey types seem to fit quite neatly.

Dude, I'm also a cancer. I don't think anything of astrology but I have a friend who does, and who insists I'm a classic cancer. I don't see any connection between cancer and INTJ!

Whoops, that wasn't about tarot.

I don't know anything about tarot, but I have a friend who used to use it. He didn't believe it had predictive powers. He just thought that using it would allow him to see patterns that already existed in his life which he hadn't noticed before.

Sun sign astrology, IMO, is far too general to have any correlation to much in the real world. However, short primer on sun signs (that I think is somewhat workable) Air/Fire signs = father / male dominated childhood, Earth/Water signs = mother / female dominated childhood, consider each sign's identifications in a broader context, apply it to the appropriate parent / role model, and use it to then describe / predict a person's asiprations and internal standards for how they believe they should live their lives. Also I would add to it a 'mirror' effect, where positive identification is normal, and such, for example, the Cancer female would live outside the city, because that's where she grew up, living with her mother; she would fear being abandoned by the men she loved, and thus question her relationships, because her father left her mother, etc. Somewhat (if only mildly) workable. It's obviously more complicated and would prefer to fit a model with a 'confirmation bias' and then test said model on people I knew nothing about.


Oh god, stop with this mysticism please. Astrology is complete crap and has nothing to do with mbti.

Yes, astrology is complete crap. I hear this so much, and, well, who cares. The truth is that just as the Jungian and Myers-Briggs types were created from a method, the same method can be used to create a standardized model for astrological interpretation. Since I have read a number of astrology books, I would argue that this model is slowly coming together, it is far from mature... In my mind, good astrology is about as accurate as the MBTI, (from an online test), and this is well indicated by the wide range of responses and ideas on this board, and other results. Disclaimer: Do I 'believe' in astrology, though? No. Feel free to criticize and disagree, condescension is not appreciated, letting you know in advance. Thanks.

I'm Pisces, and I always thought that sign corresponds to INFP. My personality is a cross between Virgo and Scorpio, but of course, I'm quite skeptic about this whole thing, astrology and all.

If you have the patience to study astrology, in the most refined (ie, closest to science as I have seen) forms, I would suggest looking into the works of Liz Greene and Robert Hand. I also like Robert Pelletier. Their works (mainly Greene and Hand) are featured on astro.com.

Umm, this doesn't surprise me. Jung was big into the occult, from what I've read (and its far too late/early to go digging for a link).

Agreed. If he had bothered to write works on astrology, he most definitely would have written something useful. I wonder, though, why he did not. The interesting thing I find about astrology, is that it seeks to make predictions, without interaction with the person, instead using the time and date (of birth or some other event). If there was a correlation between a point in time and space and a psychological picture, the best way to find this would be to have a full (or at least workable) understanding of psychology...and then work backwards from the predictions to the actual event. I wonder when we'll have high enough quality information to be able to do this.

[Antares]

If you have the patience to study astrology, in the most refined (ie, closest to science as I have seen) forms, I would suggest looking into the works of Liz Greene and Robert Hand. I also like Robert Pelletier. Their works (mainly Greene and Hand) are featured on astro.com.

I've had my natal chart done, and it's got some 'hits', but once you count the 'misses', it's just not that magical anymore. There's more 'misses' than 'hits' in my natal chart. Usually, people just remember the 'hits' and neglect the 'misses'. I used to believe in astrology and had a tarot reading almost everyday. There was this once, it described my day in such accuracy that I believed it, apparently overawed. But the 'hits' were about 3 out of every 20 days, which made me reconsider.

I do wonder how MBTI was conceived. Observation? It doesn't seem to include any form of mathematics in its study. Could that still be 'science'? I'm prone to question everything, even my INTJ type which I generally accepted as true.

Also, (I have posed this question on this forum before) what's the significance of constellations? Aren't they created the same way I saw a fairy on my wall? Or that I can connect the dots on a star-map and create a new constellation called The Aircraft Carrier with Procyon as its lambda star? Does Acrux and Becrux have ANYTHING to do with one another? Yet they are the alpha and beta in 'Crux', the Cross.

[Cirrusss]

There is a book by Herman Hesse called 'Journey to the East'. In it, he has a mentor called Leo.

It did not occur to me until sometime of contemplation months later, but if you look at his birthday, Jung is, in fact, a Leo.

[vanidence]

Hm, actually I know about Tarot and also about Elements. But uhm...yeah, if I took my Elements (Fire and Water) and look at the Fact that I am INTJ ("=" Air)...nope. Not fitting at all I guess. ^^°
Ah well, I am a Paradox Something anyways. O_o
But nice Thread. It's great to see new Theories around. ^^

[Vagrant]

I don't think this actually works.

I always tend to show up as an earth or water type.

[Nikita]

I've always felt a kinship with fire and water, I don't know why. One of my cousins (who was 8 at the time) told me, completely out of the blue, that my name should be "Fire & Water." I have no idea where she got that from b/c I'd never mentioned any elements to her, I was playing Webkins with her!

[Orpheus]

The divination side of tarot is complete crap. There are only 2 things I find the cards useful for. 1) the card game (their original purpose, until us Americans got ahold of it), and 2) the interesting symbolisms/associations for each card.

[Nemesis]

There is no spoon.

[True Rune]

Does this mean I can air bend? :P
I'm a Taurus, I imagine that'd be earthy, but I get "deep and mysterious" all the time, so I'd go with Air/water. :D