NWO / Conspiracy

[Holiman]

I personally find conspiracies interesting but generally unlikely. When more than 1 person knows a secret I find that the secret becomes general knowledge pretty fast. I will admit that Im posting this because Ray9 often speaks of these concepts as if they were the sky and he was chicken little. But are these as far out there as I think or perhaps there are more people who beleive in these concepts Im not sure but am willing to listen.

[Profit]

I personally find conspiracies interesting but generally unlikely. When more than 1 person knows a secret I find that the secret becomes general knowledge pretty fast. I will admit that Im posting this because Ray9 often speaks of these concepts as if they were the sky and he was chicken little. But are these as far out there as I think or perhaps there are more people who beleive in these concepts Im not sure but am willing to listen.

Sorry Holiman, I have no world wide conspiracy to sell you on but you should check out this site. Tons of good stuff to waste time reading.

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Read the guys life story....it is, well interesting. I stumbled on this site years ago when I was doing research for a paper on US involvement in the Afghan Soviet War. Needless to say I did not cite him. Like you I find conspiracy theories fun but not exactly believable.

[RedIrish]

The biggest problem I see with conspiracy theories is that they assume competence. Never assume competence, if a human being, or even better, a group of human beings, can find a way to screw something up, they will.

[Malkavia]

I love conspiracy theories. They are so much fun to read.

I don't believe in any of them, but part of me wants one to come true just because it would be absolutely ridiculous and I would find it humorous.

[Pandemonium]

I love conspiracy theories. They are so much fun to read.

I don't believe in any of them, but part of me wants one to come true just because it would be absolutely ridiculous and I would find it humorous.

If you are studying international politics you should be well aware that everything is a conspiracy. You also should be aware that the information we the public (uninformed masses) are told only partial truths or complete lies. If there were no conspiracies the realm of international politics it would just be boring.

[Malkavia]

If you are studying international politics you should be well aware that everything is a conspiracy. You also should be aware that the information we the public (uninformed masses) is only partial truths or complete lies. If there were no conspiracies the realm of international politics would just be boring.

I dont specialize in "international politics" as much as I do in the Middle East. My career plans would not involve me getting into those things. (hopefully)

It is true what you say however. I like it though. A lot. Is that weird?

[Stickman]

The thing about conspiracy theories is that you can never prove that it's not true (if it's a good one at least). Anything you say can be hand-waved as "that's what they want you to think" or as "brainwashing".

What I'd like to see is a conspiracy theory that has been proven right with hindsight.

[Causa Mortis]

I personally find conspiracies interesting but generally unlikely. When more than 1 person knows a secret I find that the secret becomes general knowledge pretty fast. I will admit that Im posting this because Ray9 often speaks of these concepts as if they were the sky and he was chicken little. But are these as far out there as I think or perhaps there are more people who beleive in these concepts Im not sure but am willing to listen.

I read them until I find a conceptual gap, or where they make a claim that should be something they can back with verifiable data/facts. Once I find the gap or conspicuously missing evidence, I stop reading. I usually don't get past the first paragraph. :)

[Lucid]

I kind of feel bad for people who get into this stuff in a serious way.

See here (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

And here (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

These examples, of course, are somewhat extreme cases of paranoia and it should be noted that no one on this board is making claims or believing things anywhere near this crazy.

But when you watch these, instead of just laughing at these people, try to put yourself in their shoes. Try to imagine what it's like to believe that jet contrails are really chemicals that The Government is releasing into the air to control the population. Try to imagine what it's like to believe that light hitting the water of a sprinkler and refracting into a rainbow is the result of unknown chemicals in the ground water.

That's gotta be a scary way to go through life.

[lurk]

That's gotta be a scary way to go through life.And the scariest thing of all is that they vote!

[pocohauntus]

No, the scariest thing of all is that intellectuals create these 'inner circle' stories for themselves and the whole population actually believes them to be generally true.

[Hanfgeist]

If there is some dark order of looney eschaton immanentizers, who are hell bent on taking over and reducing the population of the Planet to 500,000,000, why have they waited so long to do it? if they are hidden and all powerful, they have had ample opportunity to do this since the shenanigans in Ingolstadt in 1776........


I think the current descent into a new dark age is caused by incompetence, greed, croneyism, moochers and downright stupidity, it can all be explained by that.......

[Synamon]

When I hear conspiracy theories I always think of Hanlon's razor - "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity".

[Ray9]

I will admit that Im posting this because Ray9 often speaks of these concepts as if they were the sky and he was chicken little.

These are strange times we live in. I can say that I am concerned about how information is delivered and conveyed upon the public at all levels including our system of education. My mind keeps revisiting Arnold Toynbee's statement that great civilizations don't die by murder, they die by suicide.

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I'm also reminded of Eric Hoffer's work, "the True Believer". A true believer will latch onto a cause and ride it to the end. Today there is a runaway bandwagon of dark introspection and national self-hatred that is unsettling to those raised in a generation that asks questions but doesn't pass judgement on itself to please it's enemies.

It's an unfortunate sign of the times that people who reject the contemporary popular concept of self-laothing are labled and smeared with labels like conspiracy theorists.

[Profit]

These are strange times we live in. I can say that I am concerned about how information is delivered and conveyed upon the public at all levels including our system of education. My mind keeps revisiting Arnold Toynbee's statement that great civilizations don't die by murder, they die by suicide.

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You should read Michel-Rolph Trouillot's Silencing the Past: Power and the Production of History. Columbus day is centered around an historical myth created in the early 20th century by US Catholic and Irish immigrants to counter anti immigration hate groups like the Klan and to celebrate their heritage. Discussing the actual event and its consequences for both native and European populations is called teaching history not mythology.

Funny you quote Toynbee, seeing how he treated myths and religious metaphors as historical facts.

[Valiyn]

It's an unfortunate sign of the times that people who reject the contemporary popular concept of self-laothing are labled and smeared with labels like conspiracy theorists.

You wouldn't be if you backed up your claims with statistical facts. So far, you haven't.

Self-loathing contemporary popular concept? I'm unaware of this. Explain this phenomenon in further detail. I have not seen any self-loathing views presented thus far.

Also, the phrase sign of the times worries me a bit as I recognize the insanity that usually follows it from when I used to teach Revelations in Sunday School. Ray, is the fundamental base of these theories you have brought forth conclude that the moral decay in the world will cause the world to end, not because of it's own doing, but because god might come back suddenly to swiftly punish us all?

[Undead Bonzi]

These are strange times we live in. I can say that I am concerned about how information is delivered and conveyed upon the public at all levels including our system of education. My mind keeps revisiting Arnold Toynbee's statement that great civilizations don't die by murder, they die by suicide.

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I'm also reminded of Eric Hoffer's work, "the True Believer". A true believer will latch onto a cause and ride it to the end. Today there is a runaway bandwagon of dark introspection and national self-hatred that is unsettling to those raised in a generation that asks questions but doesn't pass judgement on itself to please it's enemies.

It's an unfortunate sign of the times that people who reject the contemporary popular concept of self-laothing are labled and smeared with labels like conspiracy theorists.

I shall offer rebuttal in the form of an applicable link to a popular web comic. The final three cells are the most relevant to your line of thinking.

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[Stickman]

Self-loathing contemporary popular concept? I'm unaware of this. Explain this phenomenon in further detail. I have not seen any self-loathing views presented thus far.

I think he's talking about 'guilt-ridden bleeding heart liberals'.

Today there is a runaway bandwagon of dark introspection and national self-hatred that is unsettling to those raised in a generation that asks questions but doesn't pass judgement on itself to please it's enemies.

You have to remember that the general motivation of American liberalism is to improve society. You can't do this by assuming America is perfect and should never change (although if you're a conservative and want to maintain the status quo then that rhetoric is natural to you) but you improve America through honest self-reflection and constructive criticism.

To say that liberals are traitors comforting America's enemies isn't really a constructive argument but a thinly veiled ad homonym. We can all agree, whether you're conservative or liberal, that there are elements of American society we don't agree with. The difference here is that conservatives allow themselves to 'self-hate' America by denying that liberals are American at all.

[Causa Mortis]

No, the scariest thing of all is that intellectuals create these 'inner circle' stories for themselves and the whole population actually believes them to be generally true.

Right, there are problems like that.

I have a course right now in monetary theory that's supposed to be an overview of differing views on monetary policy. Its actually a 3,000 page indoctrination on the virtues of free banking - an idea that says we should do away with the dollar, euro, yen, etc and replace it with notes directly from Wells Fargo, BoA, etc - which is not generally a respected view.

The rationale for it within their models and cognitive frameworks is fairly strong, however they do NOT allow any real conflicting models to enter into the picture, do not give them an inch of credit, and have no so far done anything besides make fun of other ideas. Its kind of a course in incredibly intelligent self-delusion, because I can tell you the idea is borderline crazy but it gets 99% of the time in the course.





Causa Mortis added to this post, 3 minutes and 50 seconds later...


It's an unfortunate sign of the times that people who reject the contemporary popular concept of self-laothing are labled and smeared with labels like conspiracy theorists.

No ray, I label you as a conspiracy theorist because you often:
a. make outlandish claims
b. don't support these claims with evidence or strong supporting rationale

This post is an excellent example. You touch on "self loathing" - a very strong term - but don't develop the concept, don't explain what you're thinking, and don't give any examples. What you're saying may actually be brilliant, but we'll never know because the ideas aren't really developed and are very extreme.





Causa Mortis added to this post, 6 minutes and 6 seconds later...

Try to imagine what it's like to believe that light hitting the water of a sprinkler and refracting into a rainbow is the result of unknown chemicals in the ground water.

That's gotta be a scary way to go through life.

Oh I agree - when they just have no frame of reference whatsoever, its indeed something incredibly pitiful.

However, when the views are grounded in reality but filtered with zero mental discipline, I find myself respecting them less somehow.

[Holiman]

These are strange times we live in.


Perhaps this is the crux of all the whacko, tin foil hat wearing individual's they see the world and are scared of it. I think this is why Glen Beck and his ilk are so well recieved there is a large number of people who see today as somehow worse than any other time and it scares them.


That's gotta be a scary way to go through life.


You said it exaclty. We live longer today than ever before, medical knowledge has gone leaps and bounds towards all people living healthier and dying more gracefully. We know more about the world and our surroundings than in our past.

You might think the days are strange and you would be correct. I think their exciting and hopeful as well, perhaps not the blind hope or euphoric happiness of some. But I honestly can see a brighter future and am willing to do my part to enjoy it and work towards this.


Take all your men in black tiny world conspiracies and frankly enjoy them they havent figured out how to keep me from thinking on my own yet. Or maybe im just part of the establishment keeping you all down.

[SShack]

When I hear conspiracy theories I always think of Hanlon's razor - "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity".

I use this statement a lot at the workplace and remind my reporters of it as well. Whenever we see people in power breaking the rules it's easy to assume malicious mischief, but the reality is often that they weren't even thinking about what they were doing. I actually had to explain to a public official once why a proposed city ordinance would be a violation of the Fourth Amendment. She wasn't trying to "do bad." She just wasn't thinking about it at all.

People rarely consider the unintended consequences of the things they do, which is why I find conspiracy theories fairly unconvincing. It assumes conspirators really thought out the long-term unnoticed consequences of what they're doing, and that's really often not the case, especially where government bureaucracy is concerned.

[Mader]

I avoid such theories, rarely can I come up with a logical benefit for the 'bad guys'.

I didn't realize the folks who fear the government so much that they are afraid of the H1N1 vaccine - I gather it is somehow intentially tainted, they think.

Also, seems that some are still on the idea of the government implanting computer chips under the skin to track folks - like the canine ID chips available. Wow, they used to make movies about this stuff.....

Teaching Revelations, that would be tough. When I read that Book, while it is difficult in some spots, I don't find what others seem to find, I just read it, knowing that it was written during a time of persecution. I once worked with someone who, altho a great person and did a great job for the company, believed that Russia was specifically mentioned in the Bible but had never been correctly translated so hadn't been taught about before (yikes).

I understand that we can use these theories to explain events that seem unexplainable, but I don't understand how some of these theories benefit our psyche - they seem to make life even more frightening.

[Samoan Corleone]

I love conspiracy theories. They are so much fun to read.

I don't believe in any of them, but part of me wants one to come true just because it would be absolutely ridiculous and I would find it humorous.

Me too. Maybe there is indeed a secret organization growing under our noses, but I doubt they'd have the power to take over the entire world.

[Hotpckts]

Anyone else think that since everyone seems to be freaking out about every little change in anything, (net neutrality, or switching to digital t.v. for example) that our society will become essentially frozen in time?

I'm just saying this because I have realized there are alot of you here that seem to like conspiracy theories, which I will admit are interesting and sometimes fun to think about, but just remember that those individuals who cannot change, die.

[Causa Mortis]

Anyone else think that since everyone seems to be freaking out about every little change in anything, (net neutrality, or switching to digital t.v. for example) that our society will become essentially frozen in time?

I'm just saying this because I have realized there are alot of you here that seem to like conspiracy theories, which I will admit are interesting and sometimes fun to think about, but just remember that those individuals who cannot change, die.

Didn't you just complete a post on how Obama is a Soros manchurian candidate?

[Hotpckts]

This thread has something to do with Obama?

[Dodeca]

Most conspiracies fail or don't work. At best conspiracies end up being legal pyramid scams. The U.S.S.R. being a good example. Its more what society as a whole will accept to happen. Group dynamics does play a role.

[Night Runner]

Anyone else think that since everyone seems to be freaking out about every little change in anything, (net neutrality, or switching to digital t.v. for example) that our society will become essentially frozen in time?
People have been "freaking out about every little change in anything" for thousands of years. I'm sure there were some prehistoric folk who were adamantly opposed to domesticating animals. It's not too different from the debates we have now. The only thing that ever changes is our props.

remember that those individuals who cannot change, die.
As opposed to living forever? :rolleyes:

[zibber]

Most conspiracies fail or don't work. At best conspiracies end up being legal pyramid scams. The U.S.S.R. being a good example. Its more what society as a whole will accept to happen. Group dynamics does play a role.

There is a conspiracy of sorts, but it is implicit and unquestioned. It's called capitalism. Big multinationals, banks and consortiums of all sorts have overwhelming political pull and their interests are actually blatantly put before those of the common man on a daily basis. (Most people tend not to notice or pay it much mind, as they are encultured with this system and are virtually incapable of questioning it.)

An example of how our wonderful capitalism relates to this topic (as I understand it; it isn't very coherent) is that data collected online is used to create profiles of people that advertisers can exploit. A very basic example is Google e-mail parsing your e-mails and using the results to decide which advertisements to show to you. There isn't actually a physical person collecting this data and extrapolating, but it is a rather disconcerting phenomenon.

[RedIrish]

I live in an area of Canada where a certain group of people still live without electricity or telephones and drive around in horse and buggies.

They seem to have missed the lesson that life moves on, with or without you.

There will always be people who refuse to accept change, who defy progress, and claim that the sky will fall, lightning will strike and god will smite you if the world does not stay exactly as it is this moment (or the way it was in some psuedo 1950s dreamscape). Over a century ago they called these same people luddites. Today we call them conservatives.

You can live in a world that is free of evidence based reality if you want, but it will never change the undlying fact that change happens, and the world goes on, and life continues, and if you get left behind it doesn't really matter to anyone.

[DavidHasselhoff]

[A very basic example is Google e-mail parsing your e-mails and using the results to decide which advertisements to show to you. There isn't actually a physical person collecting this data and extrapolating, but it is a rather disconcerting phenomenon.


Take a look at this article from the most recent Fortune magazine:
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[Delarge]

I'm often amazed by the incoherence and sheer stupidity of some of the ideas people possess with respect to the global power structure. These individuals are often ironical too, in that they claim that those who question their hypotheses (or delusions) are dogmatic and brainwashed.

The complexity of the social world has arrived at a level that ordinary people simply cannot understand, and many resort to etiological myths. This parallels the myths/delusions created by our ancestors to "explain" natural phenomena in general.

[whitey]

I'm often amazed by the incoherence and sheer stupidity of some of the ideas people possess with respect to the global power structure. These individuals are often ironical too, in that they claim that those who question their hypotheses (or delusions) are dogmatic and brainwashed.

The complexity of the social world has arrived at a level that ordinary people simply cannot understand, and many resort to etiological myths. This parallels the myths/delusions created by our ancestors to "explain" natural phenomena in general.


Care to expand upon your first sentence? I find it amazing or disingenuous that people wouldn't expect there to be people who do what it takes to obtain, maintain, and increase power over others. WTF? There have always been people attempting just this. When did they CEASE to exist? Sheesh, I mean, some of the people on this forum has expressed just such desires. And yes there is plenty of attitude conditioning. To claim otherwise is ignorance or disingenuous. Maybe I need to cite the decades old studies which indicate the empirical evidence for the capacity to condition a neutral attitude to match that of a desired emotion. Those who parrot mainstream "psychiatrists" and "psychologists" are no different from the rest of the common masses.

[Delarge]

Care to expand upon your first sentence? I find it amazing or disingenuous that people wouldn't expect there to be people who do what it takes to obtain, maintain, and increase power over others. WTF? There have always been people attempting just this. When did they CEASE to exist? Sheesh, I mean, some of the people on this forum has expressed just such desires. And yes there is plenty of attitude conditioning. To claim otherwise is ignorance or disingenuous. Maybe I need to cite the decades old studies which indicate the empirical evidence for the capacity to condition a neutral attitude to match that of a desired emotion. Those who parrot mainstream "psychiatrists" and "psychologists" are no different from the rest of the common masses.

I don't for a moment doubt that certain individuals experience an insatiable drive to dominate others. It's the specific power structures posited by paranoiacs that I find absurd.

We live in a world of competing interests at the level of the individual, the family, the local community, the ideology, the corporation, the religious institution, the state, the political party, et cetera. To suggest that most or all individuals with a large amount of influence possess uniform objectives and are working in concert while somehow avoiding detection, strikes me as naive.

I'd like to add that I do acknowledge the existence of conspiracies, humans are conspiratorial animals. However the ones that do exist and have existed are not nearly as all-encompassing as some would like to believe.

[whitey]

It's the specific power structures posited by paranoiacs that I find absurd.


Would you care to name the "specific power structures posited by paranoiacs" or even just a few of them?


We live in a world of competing interests at the level of the individual, the family, the local community, the ideology, the corporation, the religious institution, the state, the political party, et cetera. To suggest that most or all individuals with a large amount of influence possess uniform objectives and are working in concert while somehow avoiding detection, strikes me as naive.

I don't think I've ever come across any one who's stated that ALL or MOST individuals with a large amount of influence "possess uniform objectives". The probabilities of this are incredibly slim; however, the probabilities that SOME individuals with influence "possess SOME overlapping objectives" (oh let's say...more power) is highly likely. This latter scenario is what some people treat like "alien abduction" (yeh bullshit and or drug induced) stories. It is my contention that this attitudinal response is the result of media conditioning in most cases and in a much smaller number of cases it is disingenuous and promoted as part of attitude shaping.



However the ones that do exist and have existed are not nearly as all-encompassing as some would like to believe.

Have you invested large amounts of time researching conspiracies?

[Delarge]

Would you care to name the "specific power structures posited by paranoiacs" or even just a few of them?



I don't think I've ever come across any one who's stated that ALL or MOST individuals with a large amount of influence "possess uniform objectives". The probabilities of this are incredibly slim; however, the probabilities that SOME individuals with influence "possess SOME overlapping objectives" (oh let's say...more power) is highly likely. This latter scenario is what some people treat like "alien abduction" (yeh bullshit and or drug induced) stories. It is my contention that this attitudinal response is the result of media conditioning in most cases and in a much smaller number of cases it is disingenuous and promoted as part of attitude shaping.





Have you invested large amounts of time researching conspiracies?

I'm aware of overlapping individual interests, hence my mention of groups. The nonsense of Alex Jones, Lyndon LaRouche and David Icke is what I'm most familiar with. Make a proposition and I'll assess it.

[Il Prodigio]

I really don't think it is that hard to believe that some conspiracies could be true. People act like in history nothing shady or unethical has gone down at the expense of the general poor public at the hands of the rich and powerful.

It happens every single day in this country.
The top 1% of the population control something like upwards of 90% of the wealth.

That means that the rest of us average joes, have absolutely nothing to do with the state of the "economy". It means that the people that control all that wealth push buttons, make decisions and agreements and alter our future.

remember when gasoline cost around $4.00 a gallon? What happened? Supply sure as hell didn't go up, and demand sure as hell didn't go down. How was the price lowered? Does anyone follow me? It is fixed! its all about making capital. They pay a quarter for a gallon of gas in Venezuela. How can that be? The great America still pays upwards almost 3 dollars a gallon.

Look at the war in Iraq. The American government basically lied to everyone in the world as to their reasons for going there. Then after they sufficiently dismantled the country and completely got rid of any sort of remaining Iraqi government, they started to leak, "Sorry our bad, we really must have messed up. There was no connection between Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. There were also no WMD's."

America is a country that has a defense & military budget that encompasses 48% of total military spending by all countries in the world. The second runner up country is a tie between Great Britain and China at 12% each. THAT is truly incredible, a deficit of 36 percent.

Now lets assume that military intelligence is included in defense & military spending. Do you really think the United States of America does not know what is going all over the world? Do you really think they could possibly mess up that bad? It is all planned. If you think its just a bunch of incompetent people in government I think that is just a way to cope. There are very sharp minds that work in government agencies all over the planet.

Its the same situation with the world trade center bombing...."Yeah,we had intelligence reports of it about a month earlier.....but Whooops!, sorry"

Yeah right give me a break, I'm not about to assume the most powerful country in the world is run like a bake-sale committee. Everything is calculated and happens for a reason.


These are all conspiracies, but if you simply look at facts.......what does it tell you?

[whitey]

I'm aware of overlapping individual interests, hence my mention of groups. The nonsense of Alex Jones, Lyndon LaRouche and David Icke is what I'm most familiar with. Make a proposition and I'll assess it.

I'm not in the business of offering proposals. I like to deal with facts.

"Would you care to name the "specific power structures posited by paranoiacs" or even just a few of them?"

I also asked if, "Have you invested large amounts of time researching conspiracies?"

You gave me a non-responsive answer in regard to both questions.

[Zelder]

I'm believer in some conspiracies. I like some of the stuff the G Edward Griffin has published. His book "The Creature from Jekyll Island" is very interesting. He avoids "theories" and sticks to the hard facts that are backed up with evidence. I have become convinced that there are some very powerfull forces working behind the scenes in this world.

For example: Mr Griffin video taped an interview with Norman Dodd who had been part a congressional investigation into the tax exempt foundations in 1953. Dodd found them to be extremely dirty. One of the things they had done was fund and create a historical accociation with the intent of having control over the way the history books are written.

David Rockefeller proudly amits in his autobiography (published 2002) that the acusations against him and his family being members of a secret cabal working to create a one world government is true.

[whitey]

I'm believer in some conspiracies. I like some of the stuff the G Edward Griffin has published. His book "The Creature from Jekyll Island" is very interesting. He avoids "theories" and sticks to the hard facts that are backed up with evidence. I have become convinced that there are some very powerfull forces working behind the scenes in this world.

For example: Mr Griffin video taped an interview with Norman Dodd who had been part a congressional investigation into the tax exempt foundations in 1953. Dodd found them to be extremely dirty. One of the things they had done was fund and create a historical accociation with the intent of having control over the way the history books are written.

David Rockefeller proudly amits in his autobiography (published 2002) that the acusations against him and his family being members of a secret cabal working to create a one world government is true.

This is the heart of the issue. There are conspiracies which can be demonstrated by factual evidence (as is FREQUENTLY done in courts across the land) and there is this alternative notion which has been heavily promoted in the controlled media for decades which is called "conspiracy theory". The press implements behavioral attitude conditioning and conflate the two such that the average human reacts to just the word conspiracy as if it is the latter.

The Griffin work is exactly the kind of thing that the media attacks via this conflation. And I am aware of the Rockefellar quote. I even brought it up here: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

But of course I was blown off with: "Gee, lock him up. "

Flippant responses and calling some one nuts does not support ones argument.


I'm still waiting to hear if Delarge actually invests serious time researching conspiracies in order to be able to make his wide ranging claims or if his wide ranging claims are based upon a superficial assessment and media attitude conditioning. I'm guessing the latter because of his non-responsive answer to a simple question. So really, how am I to take those comments seriously.

[Freedom Geek]

I don't believe in any crackpot theories due to the lack of good evidence presented.

One amusing thing is that there's a conspiracy theory that transhumanists like me have some evil mad scientist plot to take over the world and oppress humanity. Some days I wish it were true.

[BlackOp]

The term "conspiracy theory" is used as a catch-all to discredit legitimate questions. It's ad hominem used to lock critical analysis in a cell with the loons.

The head of the Nazi propaganda machine once said "If the lie is big enough...people will believe it".

[Zelder]

The term "conspiracy theory" is used as a catch-all to discredit legitimate questions. It's ad hominem used to lock critical analysis in a cell with the loons.

The head of the Nazi propaganda machine once said "If the lie is big enough...people will believe it".

I agree. I don't believe in conspiracy theories. I believe in conspiracy facts. There are so many facts that if you are willing to look and study it, it becomes irrational not to believe it. I have come to believe that we live in the greatest era of propaganda and lies that the world has ever known. That being said I'm very optimistic about the future.

[Merc]

Yes I also find them interesting but unlikely.
Nevertheless it's really fun to listen to Coast to Coast AM now and then.
Just like a good sci fi story.

But there is one, well i wouldn't call it a conspiracy, that i believe in and that is Stay behind armies in Europe and Operation Gladio.

[Il Prodigio]

You know what is really crazy to think about?

The united states is arguably the most powerful country in the world. Other countries and people in other countries are definitely affected by this daily, however they get to see through everything from the outside looking in.

The scariest part is that I/we/some people are actualy IN the most powerful country. The MOST POWERFUL COUNTRY. Just think about those implications. The United States is powerful for a reason, and it has taken steps to assure this.

Who knows what I/We/Americans know to be true, because we are a part of the great machine, just not a part of the brain or the decision/strategy making machine.

Its like. We are part of this big robot or machine, and the brain is a bunch of ENTJ/INTJ telling everyone what to do/feel/how to think.

Im starting to believe George Orwell- 1984.

[Zsych]

The brains of the machine don't feel like any XNTJ to me. Seems like some retarded attempt to keep things running as they are and to try to make the masses happy when possible.

[d21]

I shall offer rebuttal in the form of an applicable link to a popular web comic. The final three cells are the most relevant to your line of thinking.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

That comic is one big strawman argument. The character lamenting Idiocracy said a total of 23 words, while the snarky character says...well, I stop counting at 50 words and had a whole lot left to count. Talk about framing the discussion! The snarky character is the one that "seems to think they have it all figured out", not the Idiocracy lamentor. Which is a shame since the second character doesn't offer any sort of insight into any of their assertions. I refuse to even speak to people like that.

[elsdfr]

Did someone say conspiracy??... this video is my current fav. :cheesy:

Fall Of The Republic - The Presidency Of Barack H Obama - The Full Movie HQ (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

"Fall Of The Republic documents how an offshore corporate cartel is bankrupting the US economy by design. Leaders are now declaring that world government has arrived and that the dollar will be replaced by a new global currency..."

[Night Runner]

"Fall Of The Republic documents how an offshore corporate cartel is bankrupting the US economy by design. Leaders are now declaring that world government has arrived and that the dollar will be replaced by a new global currency..."
Would that be the dollar, the yuan, the euro or the Brazilian real? Because it doesn't look like we're all about to merge them, hold hands around the world and start singing Kumbaya. Sorry to be blunt, but anyone who insists on there being a world government or all countries joining together overnight to form an Evil League of Evil and form death panels/kill all puppies/steal ours guns has no idea about the way international politics works...

[elsdfr]

Would that be the dollar, the yuan, the euro or the Brazilian real? Because it doesn't look like we're all about to merge them, hold hands around the world and start singing Kumbaya. Sorry to be blunt, but anyone who insists on there being a world government or all countries joining together overnight to form an Evil League of Evil and form death panels/kill all puppies/steal ours guns has no idea about the way international politics works...

No ones suggesting anything, it's just a juicy conspiracy.

They didn't manage to mention the Aliens though... I'd give it 10/10 if they had.

Here is the rest of the blurb if you're not going to watch it..

President Obama has brazenly violated Article 1 Section 9 of the US Constitution by seating himself at the head of United Nations' Security Council, thus becoming the first US president to chair the world body.

A scientific dictatorship is in its final stages of completion, and laws protecting basic human rights are being abolished worldwide; an iron curtain of high-tech tyranny is now descending over the planet.

A worldwide regime controlled by an unelected corporate elite is implementing a planetary carbon tax system that will dominate all human activity and establish a system of neo-feudal slavery.

The image makers have carefully packaged Obama as the world's savior; he is the Trojan Horse manufactured to pacify the people just long enough for the globalists to complete their master plan.

This film reveals the architecture of the New World Order and what the power elite have in store for humanity. More importantly it communicates how We The People can retake control of our government, turn the criminal tide and bring the tyrants to justice.

[spamfilter]

I was going to write that most conspiracies are true, but that isn't true.

What I meant to write is that most conspiracies I think are true, are true.

These include the conspiracies that float around the idea of powerful families and dynasties that "really control things when you think they don't".

My reasoning is that if I was part of such a family (such as the Rothschilds), then yes, I would attempt to defend, protect and extend my power. Over time, this would involve downplaying my family's actual relevance or power.

It's a somewhat circular position to take, but I know that if I am ever given power, I don't just give it up without a fight. Extrapolate that through years, decades, generations, and yes I can see where these "New World Order" theories can come from.

Hence, yes, I believe that the UN is a power-play for a NWO. Yes, I do believe that those in power come from families that were in power.

Hello?! Bush, Clinton, Bush, (almost another) Clinton- and you think America is a representative democracy? It's not even a Republic - it's an oligarchy, pure and simple. I am not sure that there is another way that societies can be sustained.

[FranG]

The term "conspiracy theory" is used as a catch-all to discredit legitimate questions. It's ad hominem used to lock critical analysis in a cell with the loons.

The head of the Nazi propaganda machine once said "If the lie is big enough...people will believe it".

I agree.

Conspiracy theories are simply theories that cannot be tested without the "conspirators'" cooperation. Thus, they can never be proven or disproven without either the "conspirators'" willingness to be frank about the alleged conspiracy, or their committing of a faux pas in the presence of a(n) outsider(s) which removes all doubt.

Formulating conspiracy theories is no different than speculating on the weather (or worse the stock market). Some people are better at doing this than others, thus some theories are better than others. Some theories involve very high level politicians, while others involve the small town petty crook.

To this end, I would posit that anyone who makes a judgment about any group of persons is a conspiracy theorist, for they are asserting what they cannot prove (unless the conditions noted early are present). And we're all guilty of this to some degree; whether we speculate about the character or the doings of the Democrats and Republicans in Washington, or the ladies of the local book club who meet once a week to discuss the "books" that they've read.

The term "conspiracy theorist" is loaded and thrown at people when we find the subject being speculated on to be offensive, whereas otherwise we may just simply disagree with their position.

[Zodd]

I read them until I find a conceptual gap, or where they make a claim that should be something they can back with verifiable data/facts. Once I find the gap or conspicuously missing evidence, I stop reading. I usually don't get past the first paragraph. :)

Those conspiracy theorists can't fool you;)

I kind of feel bad for people who get into this stuff in a serious way.

See here (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

And here (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

There are also very smart people who believe in conspiracy theories, and also retards who don't believe in conpiracy theories.

And the scariest thing of all is that they vote!
I find it scarier that actually 80% or whatever of your government is run by christians, most not just a little christian but really really christian.


Reality as I see it, has a lot of holes, a lot of holes conspiracy theories have an answer for.

They have very good evidence but on the other hand you can say they actually have nothing really really solid and explaining a new world order. They have come up with videofootage of interviews, books written by people who were inside the conspiracy, but you can believe that's al set up these days. Video, audio and pictures as to bring forth is really easy fake and if you have something real these days it's far less believable then when you'd show it 10 years ago. People can also be bought.

We surely live in a very confusing world with or without a conspiracy, all I can say.

[LCJ]

If you are studying international politics you should be well aware that everything is a conspiracy. You also should be aware that the information we the public (uninformed masses) are told only partial truths or complete lies. If there were no conspiracies the realm of international politics it would just be boring.

This doesn't just apply to international politics. It applies to most politics. Unless you have actually been either in or near to a high government position, it is often difficult to understand that conspiracy is the rule, not the exception. It does not mean that it is a conspiracy in the criminal sense, i.e. for an illegal outcome. However, even a local government require many people to be involved and acting in order for things to happen.

People also forget the phenomenon of hiding in plain sight. Most "conspiracies" are often not revealed because people often accept things at face value. They are also on the outside looking in. Connections between individuals are often only revealed if someone on the inside or with inside info connects the dots. Watergate would have never been broken if Deep Throat had not led Woodward and Bernstein through the layers. Many of the insiders have an interest in not revealing the connections because it would lead back to them. Also, different people have different reasons for being involved and different levels of involvement.

A good illustration of this would be to read the newspaper accounts of the Enron debacle and then read Ken Eichenwald's account in Conspiracy of Fools. Sadly, most people only get the newspaper reporting of matters and unnecessarily dismiss "conspiracy theories". I don't believe most conspiracy theories but I am willing to look at the evidence before dismissing them.

[Lucid]

There are also very smart people who believe in conspiracy theories, and also retards who don't believe in conpiracy theories.

I think you've grossly misunderstood my point. If you had understood it you would have found your above statement to be unnecessary.

[Dodeca]

I found out about this program on the Alex Jones youtube channel.

Conspiracy Theory HAARP 1/4 Jesse Ventura (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

[USConstitution]

Anyone else think that since everyone seems to be freaking out about every little change in anything, (net neutrality, or switching to digital t.v. for example) that our society will become essentially frozen in time?

I'm just saying this because I have realized there are alot of you here that seem to like conspiracy theories, which I will admit are interesting and sometimes fun to think about, but just remember that those individuals who cannot change, die.

Read or skim over the Old Testament Books of Kings or Chronicles. If you don't want to do that, download a copy of Theophilos and search the word "conspiracy." You'd be amazed.

You'll pay $10-20 a pop to go to a theater and watch movies that ALL contain conspiracy plots. But, you don't even realize that there are usually even a couple of conspirators in your own officeplace working against you. Or, you are in denial.

---------- Post added 12-09-2009 at 08:31 AM ----------

This doesn't just apply to international politics. It applies to most politics. Unless you have actually been either in or near to a high government position, it is often difficult to understand that conspiracy is the rule, not the exception. It does not mean that it is a conspiracy in the criminal sense, i.e. for an illegal outcome. However, even a local government require many people to be involved and acting in order for things to happen.

People also forget the phenomenon of hiding in plain sight. Most "conspiracies" are often not revealed because people often accept things at face value. They are also on the outside looking in. Connections between individuals are often only revealed if someone on the inside or with inside info connects the dots. Watergate would have never been broken if Deep Throat had not led Woodward and Bernstein through the layers. Many of the insiders have an interest in not revealing the connections because it would lead back to them. Also, different people have different reasons for being involved and different levels of involvement.

A good illustration of this would be to read the newspaper accounts of the Enron debacle and then read Ken Eichenwald's account in Conspiracy of Fools. Sadly, most people only get the newspaper reporting of matters and unnecessarily dismiss "conspiracy theories". I don't believe most conspiracy theories but I am willing to look at the evidence before dismissing them.

Well, here is one for you to figure out:

Remember when Dick Cheney went hunting with that lawyer from Texas and shot him with a 28-gauge?

Who was that guy? His name was Harry Whittington. Go to Wiki and read the article about Mr. Whittington. Who was he? He was a lawyer and Texas governor appointee to oversee Texas prison system compliance with a federal court regarding the constitutional treatment of Texas prisoners -- especially illiterate prisoners (like Gideon)

Why was Cheney hunting with him? What was going on at the time in the Whitehouse? ANSWER: Arabic detainees at Guantanamo and elsewhere. What's more illiterate than an Arab detainee in Cuba?

No official number of "pellets" pryed out of Whittington's body has ever been released. But a 3/4 oz load of birdshot (#7 or #8 shot) is ~230 pellets. Over a hundred pellets extracted is definitely the verifiable concensus. At a distance of 20-30 yards? Sounds like a direct hit to me. They also happened to be hunting with a couple of women witnesses-- prostitutes, maybe? Whittington DEFINITELY looked scared when he issued his press release after being released from the hospital.

Connect the dots (including the ones in Whittington's neck and face). Aaron Burr vs Alexander Hamilton? "I'm Vice President of the United States and President of the US Senate. I am the most powerful man in the world. I can do whatever I want and get away with it?"

[Yhor]

I re watched a video (Freedom to Fascism) tonight (pretty long documentary) about the introduction of the federal income tax, the start up of the federal reserve, and how it all ties into the New World Order.

I'm curious to know how many people have seen this video, and if so, do you feel anything can/should be done (through non violent means)?

Link to the video, Freedom to Fascism, in case you haven't seen it, and care to watch it (as I said earlier, it's fairly long).
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This thread isn't specifically about the video solely; the question in the title is the intended topic.


My short answer to the topic... the line was crossed in the US nearly a century ago, with the privatization of US currency and the backing institution (the federal reserve).

[zibber]

The Fed really boggles my mind, being a more or less private organization, but income tax seems pretty reasonable. That is not something you should worry about. (I'm so irked by those (astroturf) "Tea Party" protests.) A lot more money is being stolen from you by other sources.

Right now, there are several things that scare me. The first is this cabal of America/Israel and some allies (the Netherlands included) who have consistently been getting away with breaking international laws and ignoring institutions and conventions. The second is the existence of massive multinational companies that have way, way more political pull than voters. There's some other stuff, but this ties in to your topic.

(I'm also scared of the obvious things, like bombs, sharks, zombies and being buried alive, but the above aren't generally recognized to be as toxic and evil as they are.)

[Yhor]

The Fed really boggles my mind, being a more or less private organization, but income tax seems pretty reasonable. That is not something you should worry about. (I'm so irked by those (astroturf) "Tea Party" protests.) A lot more money is being stolen from you by other sources.

Right now, there are several things that scare me. The first is this cabal of America/Israel and some allies (the Netherlands included) who have consistently been getting away with breaking international laws and ignoring institutions and conventions. The second is the existence of massive multinational companies that have way, way more political pull than voters. There's some other stuff, but this ties in to your topic.

(I'm also scared of the obvious things, like bombs, sharks, zombies and being buried alive, but the above aren't generally recognized to be as toxic and evil as they are.)
Income tax seems 'reasonable', but the only supreme court cases involving federal income tax rule it as being unconstitutional; there is nothing in the constitution that has changed that gives the government the right to tax wages and personal income... only corporate income.

I'm more scared that more nations don't break these international treaties/conventions/laws, because that means there is a great level of cohesion.

[Dodeca]

Psychologically the masses need to identify with the group when they have no self identity. The plan of the NWO is not to dominate with guns or laws but to change the individual into a slave by repetitive processes. Over the millennia they have learned how human psyche function. They want to make man a insect subservient only to the hive. Therefore they implement there plans slowly.

Knowing the true nature of the self is the only defense against manipulation. Don't just question authority but know how it manifests itself.

[ElstonGunn]

I'm more scared that more nations don't break these international treaties/conventions/laws, because that means there is a great level of cohesion.

Any time someone talks about new world orders or a one-world-government, the inherent implication that that would be bad. I don't understand why that is. Would someone explain it clearly and reasonably to me?

I think the United States has been better off as a centralized federation than it would have been as a loose confederacy like it was under the Articles of Confederation. And I think Europe has given itself more clout by organizing into the EU. And the Schengen Agreement seems like a reasonable idea to me, especially in an area like Europe where there are so many countries packed into a relatively small area.

Concentrated power is a bad thing, but it seems like people misconstrue a large government as being a necessarily concentrated one. Or to put it a little more clearly, a large number of constituents living under a government isn't the same thing as a large amount of power invested in the governors. I don't understand why it's automatically assumed that inter-governmental and international cooperation and cohesion are bad things.

[deinotes]

Any time someone talks about new world orders or a one-world-government, the inherent implication that that would be bad. I don't understand why that is. Would someone explain it clearly and reasonably to me?

I think the United States has been better off as a centralized federation than it would have been as a loose confederacy like it was under the Articles of Confederation. And I think Europe has given itself more clout by organizing into the EU. And the Schengen Agreement seems like a reasonable idea to me, especially in an area like Europe where there are so many countries packed into a relatively small area.

Concentrated power is a bad thing, but it seems like people misconstrue a large government as being a necessarily concentrated one. Or to put it a little more clearly, a large number of constituents living under a government isn't the same thing as a large amount of power invested in the governors. I don't understand why it's automatically assumed that inter-governmental and international cooperation and cohesion are bad things.
The notion of the NWO conspiracy is that there is a "secret" group above all the current government and non governments organisation who makes all the real decisions.
So the conspiracy is about that they are the one really responsible for the wars, the current state of the world and maybe even a worldwide genocide in the near future.

[Warrior]

The Fed really boggles my mind, being a more or less private organization, but income tax seems pretty reasonable. That is not something you should worry about. (I'm so irked by those (astroturf) "Tea Party" protests.) A lot more money is being stolen from you by other sources.



I wouldn't call an income tax theft, but I'm curious what other sources are stealing my money?

[Yhor]

Any time someone talks about new world orders or a one-world-government, the inherent implication that that would be bad. I don't understand why that is. Would someone explain it clearly and reasonably to me?



I don't know all the reasons that is for everyone, but one of the reasons that stand out more often than not, for me and others, is that under a world government there would be no escape. Before a new world order agenda, if you didn't like something that wasn't likely to be changed in government, you could move to a place where you felt more comfortable. Now, if you don't like something in government, you (me at least) get the feeling of helplessness/hopelessness because there's this broad reaching scope of unified laws and agenda.

I get the idea of subliminal messages being broadcast in my neighborhood... "Resistance is futile".

Edited out a reply, I don't wanna go there.

[ElstonGunn]

Before a new world order agenda, if you didn't like something that wasn't likely to be changed in government, you could move to a place where you felt more comfortable.

Okay. That makes sense to me in theory, and I guess I see the point. But it still seems a little far-fetched to me. I mean, there are plenty of things in the US that people don't like, but I'm not sure how many people move to another country because of them. It's perfectly possible that a world-government could take the form of something very authoritarian and not at all squeamish about imposing draconian policies on everyone, but it could just as easily be a weak or decentralized or democratic system.

[LCJ]

It's perfectly possible that a world-government could take the form of something very authoritarian and not at all squeamish about imposing draconian policies on everyone, but it could just as easily be a weak or decentralized or democratic system.

Sorry but no, that is not likely. The weak and decentralized systems were the League of Nations and the UN. Neither work well and hence that model has not been replicated. The face of the NWO is the EU and its related regional trade bodies. When the EU was created, it started as a steel treaty and evolved into a customs union. It has since grown steadily larger. It's competency now reaches into criminal justice, human rights, military affairs, labour law and supercedes the laws of the Member States in any area where it has competency. It is also not democratic. Yes there is the EU Parliament but most people have disdain for it, the turnout is always low and the real power rests with the Council of Ministers and the EU Commission.

Like the EU, NAFTA, the WTO and the other trade bodies focus on "free trade" but it is very easy to see how it reaches into further areas. The WTO treaty, GATT, doesn't just focus on trade. There are parts on the services (labour) and even patents and other forms of intellectual property. It is the same slow progression as the EU. ASEAN, the African Union, and Mercosur (South American trade bloc) are following the same path. The AU now has a court just like the EU and Mercosur has recently created a Parliament similar to the EU. There are muted calls for a North American currency similar to the Euro. How far it will go, I don't know but the traditional idea of state sovereignty has declined significantly and I see no showing that it will return so long as the above institutions continue to grow.

[Synamon]

The documentary was made with an agenda:

In 2006, Russo wrote, produced, directed, and starred in a documentary feature film entitled America: Freedom To Fascism. The film questioned the legality of the income tax and attacked the growing authoritarianism in American life. The film was made after Russo had over $2 million of tax liens filed against him by the Internal Revenue Service, the state of California, and the state of New York for unpaid taxes.

[Aronnax]

Income tax seems 'reasonable', but the only supreme court cases involving federal income tax rule it as being unconstitutional; there is nothing in the constitution that has changed that gives the government the right to tax wages and personal income... only corporate income.


It sounds like you're repeating bad information, the 16th amendment clarifies the powers of taxation laid out in article I section 8, reinforcing the government's power to tax wages and income.

[Yhor]

It sounds like you're repeating bad information, the 16th amendment (an amendment is a change to the constitution) clarifies article I section 8, reinforcing the government's power to tax wages and income.

Of the States, not the people.

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

IF it was intended as a true personal income tax, why did they put in the part I emphasized? It would have clearly been broad reaching if it had been left out, and would definitely have included personal wages.

And yes Synamon, I agree there was an agenda, but answer this... how many "law abiding" people in the world, who just accept things as they are, know about, or even care about exposing corruption and conspiracy, unless it directly effects them or their family and property? Of those, how many have the means to do something about it, and of those, how many aren't too afraid to speak up about it?

I'll concede that the 16th amendment is ambiguous though, that it is possible it was meant to tax personal wages, however slight the possibility may be, in my (and others) interpretation. I hope the thread continues on track of the NWO discussion, instead of focusing on debunking everything else based on one small interpretation debate.

[Aronnax]

"...without apportionment among the several States..." in this sense means the fed is under no obligation to consider state boundaries when collecting taxes.

[Yhor]

"...without apportionment among the several States..." in this sense means the fed is under no obligation to consider state boundaries when collecting taxes.

Apportionment
apportion v. to distribute proportionately Source: NMW

In the context of the Constitution, apportionment means that each state gets a number appropriate to its population. For example, Representatives are apportioned among the states, with the most populous getting the greater share. Direct taxes (of which there are none today) were to be charged to the states in this manner as well.

The need for apportionment of taxes, and the reason for it, is difficult for us to imagine today, but there were good reasons for it. The following is an explanation of the need for the Direct Tax Apportionment clause. It was written by Supreme Court Justice Paterson in Hylton v US (3 US 171 [1796]):

The constitution declares, that a capitation tax is a direct tax; and both in theory and practice, a tax on land is deemed to be a direct tax... The provision was made in favor of the southern states; they possessed a large number of slaves; they had extensive tracts of territory, thinly settled, and not very productive. A majority of the states had but few slaves, and several of them a limited territory, well settled, and in a high state of cultivation. The southern states, if no provision had been introduced in the constitution, would have been wholly at the mercy of the other states. Congress in such case, might tax slaves, at discretion or arbitrarily, and land in every part of the Union, after the same rate or measure: so much a head, in the first instance, and so much an acre, in the second. To guard them against imposition, in these particulars, was the reason of introducing the clause in the constitution.
Source... To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Again, I'm conceding on interpretation in regards to income tax and the 16th amendment. I'm hoping the focus will be NWO...

[Dodeca]

We have Michael Tsarion with us for a two-hour discussion about Conspiracy and Psychology. We discuss Man and his Psychic Epidemics, the roots of tyranny and comment on Alex Jones latest film "Fall of the Republic." Michael is behind the "Origins and Oracles" DVD series. He i also the author of "Atlantis, Alien Visitation and Genetic Manipulation," "Irish origins of Civilization" and "Astro-Theology & Sidereal Mythology." Michael Tsarion, Red Ice Creations and Blue Fire Film are also the producers of the Architects of Control DVD series. We discuss conspiracy and solutions, the con of the American Constitution and the source of Tyranny. Topics Discussed: Consciousness, Man and his Psychic Epidemics, identification, governments, fascists, the masses, solutions, escape, religion, christianity, psychopaths, fraternal societies, kindergartens for psychopaths, Alex Jones, Alan Watt, G Edward Grifin, The New World Order, The Royals, Zionists, The Vatican, Atonists, Conflict Control, dystopia, dictatorship, The Global Civic Society, "Fall of the Republic", psychology, Masonic Founding Fathers and much more. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

[Blse]

It doesn't tie into a New World Order. As our economy develops and technologies become more complex, the need for new institution arises. The development of a modern banking system required the creation of central banks. Modern capitalism can't work without them. The development of a more modern infrastructure and expansion of social services to greater parts of the population required a more efficient system for generating revenue, thus, the personal income tax was created. These are just developments that occurred in response to the ever-changing needs of society. There is no hidden agenda leading to some pre-defined end-goal of a "New World Order." The goal is to increase efficiency, stability and justice in an ever-changing world.

[blueback]

The first words in Section 8 are "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes..." To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. I don't think lawyers and politicians could possibly have been more straight forward.

How is a government supposed to function except by collecting taxes?

Whatever form the NWO might take, it would still essentially be a government. And it would therefore have the same weaknesses all governments have.

All the conspiracy theory stuff about how compounding scientific achievements will allow a small cabal of bankers (or whoever) to literally control the minds of everyone in the world is hogwash. The mere presence of a level of technology that allows for something like that to happen also allows for the power to fight back and destroy that organization. Look at the US: we spend as much on our military as the rest of the world combined and we still can't deal with roadside bombs in Afghanistan.

[RHKINC]

One global leftist movement unconnected but promoting socialism. 2009-present is too close.

[Blse]

One global leftist movement unconnected but promoting socialism. 2009-present is too close.

Socialism has been on a steady decline throughout the last few decades. Social Democracy has experienced somewhat of a revival in Europe and Latin America but talking for a global movement towards socialism is not in order - not even remotely. The market system is the undisputed king of economic systems today - socialism lost out with the end of the Cold War. There's little question about that among most economists and political scientists.

[RHKINC]

With the U.S. moving closer to adopting a Socialist system, and the international opinion (from the expanding Bolivarian Alliance to Iran) promoting not just Socialism, but playing hatred of Capitalism on the current economic decline the global leftist movement could be seen as growing. Perhaps the big players in this would be Brazil and the U.S. if not encouraging, but ignoring the global shift to enable the Socialist movement.s

[whitey]

I re watched a video (Freedom to Fascism) tonight (pretty long documentary) about the introduction of the federal income tax, the start up of the federal reserve, and how it all ties into the New World Order.

I'm curious to know how many people have seen this video, and if so, do you feel anything can/should be done (through non violent means)?

Link to the video, Freedom to Fascism, in case you haven't seen it, and care to watch it (as I said earlier, it's fairly long).
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


This thread isn't specifically about the video solely; the question in the title is the intended topic.


My short answer to the topic... the line was crossed in the US nearly a century ago, with the privatization of US currency and the backing institution (the federal reserve).

I would say the line was crossed when the Masons foisted the Constitution on the masses. And prior to that when others foisted the Articles of confederation on those who consented to be part of the body politic called "States". There have been a number of private banks working with those doing business as the government since different governments have been operation in the geographical regions typically called "the united states of america".

I've seen that video, and it's a nice primer, but there is a lot more to be learned regarding the groups who have created corporations AKA governments that monopolize the use of force against those who they thieve from. The corporation known as "The United States" wasn't created until 1873. There's way too much to go over on this forum, especially for those with short attention spans.

Personally, I don't see the NWO coming to fruition. They've got to get all the firearms or make them non-functional (restrict ammo access) and that just isn't going to happen. The element of surprise is completely gone and the arrogance of those attempting to control the world's population is making them fall short of their goals.

Any one seriously interested in this topic should research the UN local agenda 21, whereby grant money is given to NGO's which operate in communities and help to push UN agenda's to eventually become law in communities. The other thing to study is fabian socialism and the form of government which they are attempting to implement via agenda 21, which is called communitarianism. This is the synthesis of the two authoritarian systems called Capitalism and Communism. All of which have been pushed and promoted by cabbalists and freemasons.

---------- Post added 01-17-2010 at 07:58 PM ----------

Income tax seems 'reasonable', but the only supreme court cases involving federal income tax rule it as being unconstitutional; there is nothing in the constitution that has changed that gives the government the right to tax wages and personal income... only corporate income.

I'm more scared that more nations don't break these international treaties/conventions/laws, because that means there is a great level of cohesion.

That's correct regarding the income tax. If one takes the time to read the definitions related to the income tax in Title 18 USC they will see that those taxes apply to those who work for the government (it's considered a privilege to make a living through their corporate aka government structure), or who derive benefits via contractual agreements with the government (these guys always seem to get massive tax breaks...).

---------- Post added 01-17-2010 at 08:04 PM ----------

Any time someone talks about new world orders or a one-world-government, the inherent implication that that would be bad. I don't understand why that is. Would someone explain it clearly and reasonably to me?

I think the United States has been better off as a centralized federation than it would have been as a loose confederacy like it was under the Articles of Confederation. And I think Europe has given itself more clout by organizing into the EU. And the Schengen Agreement seems like a reasonable idea to me, especially in an area like Europe where there are so many countries packed into a relatively small area.

Concentrated power is a bad thing, but it seems like people misconstrue a large government as being a necessarily concentrated one. Or to put it a little more clearly, a large number of constituents living under a government isn't the same thing as a large amount of power invested in the governors. I don't understand why it's automatically assumed that inter-governmental and international cooperation and cohesion are bad things.

They're bad things because the assholes doing business as "governments" do not respect the individual's right to not participate in their contractual system. Creating a world government where the assholes are more distant from those they claim "authority" over simply makes it even more difficult for the individual to avoid being held to contractual terms which they do not consent to.

This issue of "deriving powers from the consent of the governed" is drilled into the minds of individuals at a young age so that they automatically don't question if they want to consent to such a system. By the time the they are old enough to "participate" in the system it is a forgone conclusion that they "consent" to this contractual system which is merely a form of evolved slavery.

---------- Post added 01-17-2010 at 08:08 PM ----------

It sounds like you're repeating bad information, the 16th amendment clarifies the powers of taxation laid out in article I section 8, reinforcing the government's power to tax wages and income.

It is the definitions of who constitutes one liable for such taxes that clarify that the tax applies to government workers or those who derive profit, gain, or income from contracts with the government.

Of course, none of that shit applies to those who don't consent to being governed by the corporation of the United States.

[whitey]

The notion of the NWO conspiracy is that there is a "secret" group above all the current government and non governments organisation who makes all the real decisions.
So the conspiracy is about that they are the one really responsible for the wars, the current state of the world and maybe even a worldwide genocide in the near future.

It's no secret. It just requires research. Research is not sitting around and listening to schills like Alex Jones.

Why don't you do yourself a favor and go read Caroll Quigley's, "Tragedy & Hope"?

---------- Post added 01-17-2010 at 08:17 PM ----------

I wouldn't call an income tax theft, but I'm curious what other sources are stealing my money?

Why isn't it theft if you don't consent to be governed? The pigs will still come and steal your money, property, cage you, or possibly kill you. How the fuck is that not theft? At least petty thieves don't lie to you and tell you they have the right to take what is yours.

---------- Post added 01-17-2010 at 08:21 PM ----------

Okay. That makes sense to me in theory, and I guess I see the point. But it still seems a little far-fetched to me. I mean, there are plenty of things in the US that people don't like, but I'm not sure how many people move to another country because of them. It's perfectly possible that a world-government could take the form of something very authoritarian and not at all squeamish about imposing draconian policies on everyone, but it could just as easily be a weak or decentralized or democratic system.

You're conflating geography with corporations. Just about everyone does this as a result of State forced attitude conditioning in the public schools.

---------- Post added 01-17-2010 at 08:26 PM ----------

We have Michael Tsarion with us for a two-hour discussion about Conspiracy and Psychology. We discuss Man and his Psychic Epidemics, the roots of tyranny and comment on Alex Jones latest film "Fall of the Republic." Michael is behind the "Origins and Oracles" DVD series. He i also the author of "Atlantis, Alien Visitation and Genetic Manipulation," "Irish origins of Civilization" and "Astro-Theology & Sidereal Mythology." Michael Tsarion, Red Ice Creations and Blue Fire Film are also the producers of the Architects of Control DVD series. We discuss conspiracy and solutions, the con of the American Constitution and the source of Tyranny. Topics Discussed: Consciousness, Man and his Psychic Epidemics, identification, governments, fascists, the masses, solutions, escape, religion, christianity, psychopaths, fraternal societies, kindergartens for psychopaths, Alex Jones, Alan Watt, G Edward Grifin, The New World Order, The Royals, Zionists, The Vatican, Atonists, Conflict Control, dystopia, dictatorship, The Global Civic Society, "Fall of the Republic", psychology, Masonic Founding Fathers and much more. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

From my own research I see Tsarion, Alex Jones, and Alan Watt as disinfo/"piped pipers" for those who stumble across the realization that something isn't right, yet turn to edu-tainment for their information rather than wide covering research on issues.

[Yhor]

I would say the line was crossed when the Masons foisted the Constitution on the masses. And prior to that when others foisted the Articles of confederation on those who consented to be part of the body politic called "States". There have been a number of private banks working with those doing business as the government since different governments have been operation in the geographical regions typically called "the united states of america".

I've seen that video, and it's a nice primer, but there is a lot more to be learned regarding the groups who have created corporations AKA governments that monopolize the use of force against those who they thieve from. The corporation known as "The United States" wasn't created until 1873. There's way too much to go over on this forum, especially for those with short attention spans.

-I find it interesting that so few people actually look at the US as a corporation, instead of a government, this view has led to some pretty heated arguments for me especially while I served in the military. I LOVE my country, but I've also come to realize just how dangerous it is to believe in it so blindly from what I was 'taught' in school, and media driven information. Private banks and power brokers from certain groups (masons, religious groups and their agendas, among other groups more recently) have brought this into an ever progressive (d)evolution.

-My first view of that video gave me the same reaction as others here.. he was behind in debt and made a video to attempt to get out of it and was exaggerating, but after researching and watching it again after, I don't see very much exaggeration or sensationalizing. I also ignored most of the things not relating to the IRS specifically in my first viewing. I'm not saying it is 100% truth, but it is indeed food for thought if a person is capable of being objective (though I'm never objective when seeing or hearing Alex Jones, the guy is a whack job).

Personally, I don't see the NWO coming to fruition. They've got to get all the firearms or make them non-functional (restrict ammo access) and that just isn't going to happen. The element of surprise is completely gone and the arrogance of those attempting to control the world's population is making them fall short of their goals.

Any one seriously interested in this topic should research the UN local agenda 21, whereby grant money is given to NGO's which operate in communities and help to push UN agenda's to eventually become law in communities. The other thing to study is fabian socialism and the form of government which they are attempting to implement via agenda 21, which is called communitarianism. This is the synthesis of the two authoritarian systems called Capitalism and Communism. All of which have been pushed and promoted by cabbalists and freemasons.
-If Americans/the world doesn't wake up and start fact checking, it will be inevitable that we will come under a world government, whether it be the NWO, or some other power to be. The collection of firearms has long been started, and the non violent -media/government vs. Joe/Suzy Common- war is not all that old, and the government backed by media seems to be winning. If we were to go into a military state for whatever reason, they could put a huge dent into the personal protection firearms held by the population. During Katrina, many of the people who stayed to protect their property were removed of their firearms by the National Guard.

-I've heard about some of the UN agendas, but to be honest, I haven't looked into much. I know from some of my experiences with them that I don't care for some of their policy that oversteps individual government's rights, but thats the extent of my dealings... I'll be sure to look into it more.

---------- Post added 01-17-2010 at 07:58 PM ----------



That's correct regarding the income tax. If one takes the time to read the definitions related to the income tax in Title 18 USC they will see that those taxes apply to those who work for the government (it's considered a privilege to make a living through their corporate aka government structure), or who derive benefits via contractual agreements with the government (these guys always seem to get massive tax breaks...).
I think it's possible it could extend further, but I don't think it legitimately taxes individual income, that to me, is a broad overstepping tax than it's intended function. By the way, I opened a corporation when I first started doing jobs/contracts -on my own-, for tax breaks and the ability to limit personal liability.

<snip>

---------- Post added 01-17-2010 at 08:08 PM ----------



It is the definitions of who constitutes one liable for such taxes that clarify that the tax applies to government workers or those who derive profit, gain, or income from contracts with the government.

Of course, none of that shit applies to those who don't consent to being governed by the corporation of the United States.
I tend to agree.

It's no secret. It just requires research. Research is not sitting around and listening to schills like Alex Jones.

Why don't you do yourself a favor and go read Caroll Quigley's, "Tragedy & Hope"?
I couldn't agree more about Alex Jones, what an idiot.

---------- Post added 01-17-2010 at 08:17 PM ----------



Why isn't it theft if you don't consent to be governed? The pigs will still come and steal your money, property, cage you, or possibly kill you. How the fuck is that not theft? At least petty thieves don't lie to you and tell you they have the right to take what is yours.
But the government WOULDN"T do that if it weren't legal, CLEARLY it isn't theft

---------- Post added 01-17-2010 at 08:21 PM ----------



You're conflating geography with corporations. Just about everyone does this as a result of State forced attitude conditioning in the public schools. Don't forget media conditioning, too.

---------- Post added 01-17-2010 at 08:26 PM ----------



From my own research I see Tsarion, Alex Jones, and Alan Watt as disinfo/"piped pipers" for those who stumble across the realization that something isn't right, yet turn to edu-tainment for their information rather than wide covering research on issues.
Dodecas link was my first experience watching Tsarion, I loathe Alex Jones, and don't remember much about Watt. I can say the the link Dodeca gave didn't seem over sensationalized to me, but maybe that's just because they gave an air of unbiased tone and direction.

[BlackOp]

Here' a link to Carroll Quigley's "Tragedy and Hope"...it's an amazing read (so far).

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[Lucius]

well, don't we most live in a free democratic republic? Yes? Don't democratic republic gives freedom? Yes? Then is it wrong for them to employ their rights -- freedom? No? Then is it wrong to be too close -- or become more of a fascist state when it is determined by the free will of the "people?" No? Then I see no reason for being concerned...

[Yhor]

well, don't we most live in a free democratic republic? Yes? Don't democratic republic gives freedom? Yes? Then is it wrong for them to employ their rights -- freedom? No? Then is it wrong to be too close -- or become more of a fascist state when it is determined by the free will of the "people?" No? Then I see no reason for being concerned...

Thank you for such an enlightening point of view. I feel much better now knowing there is nothing to worry about.

[deinotes]

Thank you for such an enlightening point of view. I feel much better now knowing there is nothing to worry about.
There can be something to worry about but i have a strong doubts that the NWO exists.
I have done "research" on many of the conspiracy theories and it could all be simply explained by just a power struggle by the different interest groups in the world.
In all the "conspiracy" movies etc, you see again and again the same "experts".
I don't have seen really shocking things besides that the most important people of the top in the world comes together and that it's against the us law.
Just seek for bohemian grove or Bilderberg.

[elsdfr]

Search rules don't allow a lookup for 'NWO' on INTJf... oerr ;)

There was this thread To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. not long ago.

And another long conspiracy/NWO/the sky is falling! video...
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[whitey]

-If Americans/the world doesn't wake up and start fact checking, it will be inevitable that we will come under a world government, whether it be the NWO, or some other power to be. The collection of firearms has long been started, and the non violent -media/government vs. Joe/Suzy Common- war is not all that old, and the government backed by media seems to be winning. If we were to go into a military state for whatever reason, they could put a huge dent into the personal protection firearms held by the population. During Katrina, many of the people who stayed to protect their property were removed of their firearms by the National Guard.

As long as we have the capacity for learning what is real and what is not we have the ability to fight. True firearm collection started a long time ago and is high on the list of things to do for the UN. I actually would say that I think the psychological war has been waged since the time of McCarthy. Attitude conditioning started decades ago with the promotion of things on TV and radio. The war of the worlds broadcast that stirred up millions was a psychological test. The thing is, the media doesn't report about the people who stayed in their homes and told the national guard they would shoot them if they tried to come in and take the guns. This did happen. In those cases the guard just moved on. This is part of controlling perceptions that if they go door to door that's the end of having guns. I've already cached a number of things and I plan on not giving up what I have in the house. I'd prefer to not get in a shoot out in the house since it isn't conducive to long term fighting but I'll have to see how I behave when placed in that situation.


I couldn't agree more about Alex Jones, what an idiot.


I think that damned propagandist needs his neck stretched along with every other propagandist who is engaged in the unconventional psychological war against the common man across the globe. There is a reason why they don't teach any thing about the details of brainwashing in college (especially in Psychology courses where it should be expected); the students would realize it's all around them on a daily basis, and students are usually full of energy and idealism; it would be very bad for business if students came to comprehend what is going on.


But the government WOULDN"T do that if it weren't legal, CLEARLY it isn't theft


lmao! Isn't that the truth?


Dodecas link was my first experience watching Tsarion, I loathe Alex Jones, and don't remember much about Watt. I can say the the link Dodeca gave didn't seem over sensationalized to me, but maybe that's just because they gave an air of unbiased tone and direction.

You'll find with time and research that a technique which is employed is feeding the audience 98% truth/facts and 2% bullshit which is misleading. When one has studied the issues long enough you can catch these people who should know about certain details which they NEVER raise...

---------- Post added 01-18-2010 at 03:07 AM ----------

well, don't we most live in a free democratic republic? Yes? Don't democratic republic gives freedom? Yes? Then is it wrong for them to employ their rights -- freedom? No? Then is it wrong to be too close -- or become more of a fascist state when it is determined by the free will of the "people?" No? Then I see no reason for being concerned...

I don't know about you but the only place that I've ever lived was in my body. I've traveled all across the continent of North America and the whole time I was living in my body.:suspicious:

You need to read my comments regarding the issue of consent. Just because a group of people decide they want someone else to tell them how to live doesn't mean I want any part of that. But will they leave me alone and out of their system? Nope. They've got screws loose and think that those who don't consent don't have the right to do as they please (obviously barring harming others or thieving from others). Like it was said in Easy Rider, "People fear true freedom."

[AnnoyingPony]

I love conspiracy theories. They are so much fun to read.

I don't believe in any of them, but part of me wants one to come true just because it would be absolutely ridiculous and I would find it humorous.

Conspiracy theories are fun escapes from reality. My personal favorite is advocated by a born-again Christian conspiracy theorist called gorilla199. He believes that the earth is going to be invaded by aliens called "Nephilim" from the planet Nibiru to breed with human women to make half-alien hybrids called "Tares," who will then team up with the Freemasons to infiltrate positions of business-related and political power. Yeah.

Things that are "Satanic" to Gorilla199:
- Circles
- Triangles
- Eyes
- Scales
- Any letter that looks like a Roman numeral... no, scratch that, the whole Roman alphabet
- Greek gods (he thinks that they're real)
- Democracy
- Chess
- Sex
- NASA
- The 2010 World Cup logo
- The mainstream media (and most of the non-mainstream media as well)
- Richard Dawkins
- UFOs
- Bicycle signs
- Speed bumps
- Anyone who disagrees with him
- Helicopters
- Freemasons and any "Freemasonic" logo
- Table manners
- Most buildings with pretty architecture
- The Large Hadron Collider (though he admitted he might have been wrong on this one)
- The Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution
- Science
- Etc...

[whitey]

Conspiracy theories are fun escapes from reality. My personal favorite is advocated by a born-again Christian conspiracy theorist called gorilla199. He believes that the earth is going to be invaded by aliens called "Nephilim" from the planet Nibiru to breed with human women to make half-alien hybrids called "Tares," who will then team up with the Freemasons to infiltrate positions of business-related and political power. Yeah.




It's that kind of bullshit that gets intentionally spread by intel agencies and their secret society members to muddy the waters and make any one who has some overlapping attitudes look fucking nuts. It's easy to see through when you've researched long enough. Kind of like the David Icke "repilitian" bullshit. Simple attitude conditioning via classical conditioning and pairing of stimuli. *yawn*

[Yhor]

It's that kind of bullshit that gets intentionally spread by intel agencies and their secret society members to muddy the waters and make any one who has some overlapping attitudes look fucking nuts. It's easy to see through when you've researched long enough. Kind of like the David Icke "repilitian" bullshit. Simple attitude conditioning via classical conditioning and pairing of stimuli. *yawn*

You probably believe in little green aliens too!
/sarcasm

Yeah, it's hell trying to logically explain something completely rational, when you have people come in and take it to an extreme, to make the whole fucking topic look like some scribblings on a psychiatric hospital wall.

3 people at a dog food convention...
Joe Common: I feed my dog Big RuffRuff dog food, because it has a great source of protien.

Jill LesCommon: I used to, until I had a friend who used to work in Big RuffRuff labs tell me of the experiments that went on with dogs and testing the food.

Bill Debunker: I heard those experiments were terrible; they put rat feces and human body parts that were donated to science in the experimental food for 'testing'.. and sometimes the scientists would eat the food their self. Who knows what other stuff they did in those experiments...

Joe Common: Well, it sounds like a bunch of bull shit to me. I'll keep buying Big RuffRuff dog food, because it's cheap and conveniently located where I shop most often.

10 years later, Bill Debunker gets a promotion at his job that he's spent 15 years in. He's promoted to Head of the Promotional Department at Big RuffRuff dog food.

[elsdfr]

Don't forget the Lizard People! (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

Lizard-People Run the World
If a science fiction-based religion isn't exotic enough, followers of onetime BBC reporter David Icke believe that certain powerful people — like George W. Bush and the British royals — actually belong to an alien race of shape-shifting lizard-people. Icke claims Princess Diana confirmed this to one of her close friends; other lizard theories (there are several) point to reptilian themes in ancient mythology. And let's not forget the '80s TV show V.

[elprimodelyeti]

Most conspiracies fail or don't work. At best conspiracies end up being legal pyramid scams. The U.S.S.R. being a good example. Its more what society as a whole will accept to happen. Group dynamics does play a role.
Two consparicies that did not fail:

1.-WTC false flag inside job
2.-1969's moon landing by men

These two alone are enough to understand how rotten the world is.

---------- Post added 01-27-2010 at 08:30 PM ----------

Don't forget the Lizard People! (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

Lizard-People Run the World
If a science fiction-based religion isn't exotic enough, followers of onetime BBC reporter David Icke believe that certain powerful people — like George W. Bush and the British royals — actually belong to an alien race of shape-shifting lizard-people. Icke claims Princess Diana confirmed this to one of her close friends; other lizard theories (there are several) point to reptilian themes in ancient mythology. And let's not forget the '80s TV show V.
Ever heard of Blue Beam project? If it happens to be true, we are very screwed. Apparently the military and space related agencies have this technology that allows them to create imagery in the sodium layer of athmosphere so real that even in daylight you wouldn't be able to tell if what you sre seen is real or just a hologram. Some say they will create an illusion of an allien invasion or something like that.

---------- Post added 01-27-2010 at 08:33 PM ----------

Conspiracy theories are fun escapes from reality. My personal favorite is advocated by a born-again Christian conspiracy theorist called gorilla199. He believes that the earth is going to be invaded by aliens called "Nephilim" from the planet Nibiru to breed with human women to make half-alien hybrids called "Tares," who will then team up with the Freemasons to infiltrate positions of business-related and political power. Yeah.

Things that are "Satanic" to Gorilla199:
- Circles
- Triangles
- Eyes
- Scales
- Any letter that looks like a Roman numeral... no, scratch that, the whole Roman alphabet
- Greek gods (he thinks that they're real)
- Democracy
- Chess
- Sex
- NASA
- The 2010 World Cup logo
- The mainstream media (and most of the non-mainstream media as well)
- Richard Dawkins
- UFOs
- Bicycle signs
- Speed bumps
- Anyone who disagrees with him
- Helicopters
- Freemasons and any "Freemasonic" logo
- Table manners
- Most buildings with pretty architecture
- The Large Hadron Collider (though he admitted he might have been wrong on this one)
- The Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution
- Science
- Etc...
So you are one of the 29 persons in the world who have seen gorilla99 videos in Nibirupedia eh? Keep up the good work!

[Holiman]

Wait, yes that makes sense of course the missing people from flight 96 must be on the moon....

OMG the blue beam project yes of course our military has these secrets but dont use them, to say win in the middle east conflicts.

[elprimodelyeti]

There can be something to worry about but i have a strong doubts that the NWO exists.
I have done "research" on many of the conspiracy theories and it could all be simply explained by just a power struggle by the different interest groups in the world.
In all the "conspiracy" movies etc, you see again and again the same "experts".
I don't have seen really shocking things besides that the most important people of the top in the world comes together and that it's against the us law.
Just seek for bohemian grove or Bilderberg.
Man don't fool yourself, just take a quick look at Maltese Croix knights from the Catholic church and you will find one of the most twisted groups in the world doing horrible things in secrecy. Or just walk around the corner to your nearest Rotary club and find out who really rules the club (Freemasons of course). They act under oats that simply ignore the laws of the countries where they exist.

---------- Post added 01-27-2010 at 08:40 PM ----------

Wait, yes that makes sense of course the missing people from flight 96 must be on the moon....

OMG the blue beam project yes of course our military has these secrets but dont use them, to say win in the middle east conflicts.
I have read that in fact some of it has been used in the Persian Gulf!

[Yhor]

Two consparicies that did not fail:

1.-WTC false flag inside job
2.-1969's moon landing by men

These two alone are enough to understand how rotten the world is.



I've seen sufficient evidence that WTC attacks (or more pointedly, the pentagon) may have been an 'inside job", but what evidence is there that the moon landing was a fake? Personally, I don't really care if the moon landing was real or not, but if you can source some evidence on it, maybe I'll gain some insight on "how rotten" it was...

[Holiman]

I have read that in fact some of it has been used in the Persian Gulf!

I was actually in the Persian Gulf care to site this fact? Nevermind I probably was never there damn that secretive military.

[MrDoom]

I was actually in the Persian Gulf care to site this fact? Nevermind I probably was never there damn that secretive military.

That was an implanted memory created by the NASA-Zionist cabal that secretly runs the UN.

Also any evidence against the NWO was directly planted by their agents to confuse those seeking the truth.

[Aronnax]

I've seen sufficient evidence that WTC attacks (or more pointedly, the pentagon) may have been an 'inside job", but what evidence is there that the moon landing was a fake? Personally, I don't really care if the moon landing was real or not, but if you can source some evidence on it, maybe I'll gain some insight on "how rotten" it was...

I'm really interested in how the hell a mirror, used to reflect a laser to determine the distance from the earth to the moon, got up there if nobody visited it.

[whitey]

Two consparicies that did not fail:

1.-WTC false flag inside job
2.-1969's moon landing by men

These two alone are enough to understand how rotten the world is.

Agreed. But the good thing is it puts a lot of other questions in to focus that would have never been asked. The main issue of course is getting through the attitude conditioning enough to make it some how rewarding for individuals to ask questions that have heavy answers. I came to this forum hoping that the INTJ personality would present a population who is more readily capable of asking such questions, coping with the answers, and seeking solutions to the problems, outside of the dialectic, of course....


Ever heard of Blue Beam project? If it happens to be true, we are very screwed. Apparently the military and space related agencies have this technology that allows them to create imagery in the sodium layer of athmosphere so real that even in daylight you wouldn't be able to tell if what you sre seen is real or just a hologram. Some say they will create an illusion of an allien invasion or something like that.

Take a chill pill. They're fucked. The element of surprise is gone. If you start digging deeper you will find that people have been fighting these groups for a long time. They are usually pushed off to the side and called nuts. If you do a youtube search for "militia phil donahue" just watch the 4 part series where those militiamen (guys who have dedicated themselves to protecting their family and communities; the media would like you to view all militia men as white seperatist racists because the media is run by the ENEMY).

---------- Post added 01-27-2010 at 10:16 PM ----------

Wait, yes that makes sense of course the missing people from flight 96 must be on the moon....

OMG the blue beam project yes of course our military has these secrets but dont use them, to say win in the middle east conflicts.

Stating ANY thing about those people with out evidence is speculation. The government has yet to provide satisfactory evidence backing their story. Maybe the whole issue of tracking those "hijacked" flights wouldn't have been a problem that day if the radar systems didn't have ghosts being injected into the doppler. Must have been a co-inky-dink...

---------- Post added 01-27-2010 at 10:21 PM ----------

I've seen sufficient evidence that WTC attacks (or more pointedly, the pentagon) may have been an 'inside job", but what evidence is there that the moon landing was a fake? Personally, I don't really care if the moon landing was real or not, but if you can source some evidence on it, maybe I'll gain some insight on "how rotten" it was...


The Van Allen Belts. Go straight to Van Allen's work on the topic and ignore those parroting NASA propaganda. That psy-op served a number of functions, the first of which, and as always, was an excuse for looting so called "tax payers".

There are some clips of Van Allen speaking on the topic up on youtube also. Pay close attention to his research with the exponential increase in radiation in the belts.

---------- Post added 01-27-2010 at 10:22 PM ----------

I was actually in the Persian Gulf care to site this fact? Nevermind I probably was never there damn that secretive military.

Last time I checked the Persian gulf is a large expanse, large enough that things can happen which individuals in the region may not bear witness to. I could be wrong though...

---------- Post added 01-27-2010 at 10:25 PM ----------

I'm really interested in how the hell a mirror, used to reflect a laser to determine the distance from the earth to the moon, got up there if nobody visited it.

Have you or any other independent researchers replicated this phenomenon?

When was said lazer used? How was said mirror located to perform such experiments?

Sorry, too many people buy the bullshit sold by those DBA the government. It's a bitter pill to swallow, but at some point I hope you're able to beat the attitude conditioning and state worship .

[Yhor]

I'm all for freedom of speech and the right to question our government, as is more than evident in this thread. However, if you make statements about something, or if I make statements about something, and don't back it up with evidence, or at least a source that is somewhat credible with a 'genuine' article of food for thought, it makes you... and others who agree with certain aspects of your statements.. look completely ridiculous for raising unsubstantiated questions; sometimes, I think that is the objective of apparent 'whacko' posts.

Hell, reading this post, and my other posts in the context of this thread, maybe I'm a whacko, too. If I've made a claim, or stated something (that wasn't in sarcasm) that needs to be expanded on, don't hesitate to call my hand... I certainly don't mind offering what evidence I have come across that gave me the answers, or questions, that I have.

As for the moon landing, I haven't seen enough evidence or material to convince me it didn't happen. Maybe it's because I really don't see the significance of lying about it, or maybe I just don't have the energy to argue over it.

[Aronnax]

Have you or any other independent researchers replicated this phenomenon?

When was said lazer used? How was said mirror located to perform such experiments?

Sorry, too many people buy the bullshit sold by those DBA the government. It's a bitter pill to swallow, but at some point I hope you're able to beat the attitude conditioning and state worship .

The mirror array is sitting in the sea of tranquility, lasers have been used on the array for decades and it's still going on.

Have I independently performed the experiment? Not with my own equipment, I don't have a giant laser in my pocket. However, I have worked with some people from JPL and UCSD who use the laser at apache point observatory to confirm the accuracy of general relativity. The size of your conspiracy would have to be massive to incorporate all the random students and post docs who wander in and out of such projects. Equipment/data doctoring by secret black agents is highly unlikely, research equipment is maintained by post docs and grad students.

Occam's razor is appropriate here.

[whitey]

At this point, for me, I understand the aversive nature of certain issues and answers to those issues. I don't exert more effort than I think it's worth with most people. They're going to do or believe as they wish and keep seeking out their favorite forms of entertainment even when they're stuck eating mud pies.

Most major psyops accomplish a number of goals, usually money and control are at the center. Follow the money trail...

[whitey]

On Cass Sunstein's 2008 paper:

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The mirror array is sitting in the sea of tranquility, lasers have been used on the array for decades and it's still going on.

Have I independently performed the experiment? Not with my own equipment, I don't have a giant laser in my pocket. However, I have worked with some people from JPL and UCSD who use the laser at apache point observatory to confirm the accuracy of general relativity. The size of your conspiracy would have to be massive to incorporate all the random students and post docs who wander in and out of such projects. Equipment/data doctoring by secret black agents is highly unlikely, research equipment is maintained by post docs and grad students.

Occam's razor is appropriate here.

How are the researchers confirming that their lasers are bouncing off of this "mirror" and not just the surface of the moon? How have they been managing for decades to compensate for the Earth's spinning, which surely has some effect on being able to localize a lazer on to such a tiny object. Can you point me to some primary source material on this matter?

"My conspiracy"? Fellow, you need to do some reading outside of mainstream sources. Why don't you start with Bertrand Russell's, "The Impact of Science on Society" or Carol Quigley's "Tragedy and Hope"? You're assuming that in a given conspiracy, all individuals who play a part in the event are aware of the "big picture". It would behoove you to refrain from such assumptions. Interns that cycled through my own lab had no fucking clue what was going on in the lab other than the work given to them. It would also behoove you to stick to what is said and to not embellish upon what has been said. The manner in which you insert "secret black agents" is not appreciated and it makes it hard for me to take you seriously since you are clearly reframing the issue by using a strawman argument.

Occam's razor is never appropriate when dealing with human behavior. Humans prevaricate which eliminates the possibility of using it with any accuracy.