Workplace Sexual Harassment

[Evangelist]

I work in a field dominated by men. I am a minister and most of my colleagues are men. If you don't think a brother in a robe can't get touch feely, your wrong. I have learned that some men lose boundaries when they are in a position to make an advance. Here are some of the things I do so that they don't get the wrong idea.

I never let them whisper, I make them talk loud enough so that anyone can hear our conversation, including their wives.

I never let them hug me. Even if that means taking their hands off my shoulders, pushing them back and giving them a handshake.

I never allow them to call me by my first name. When they ask my name, I say Reverand or Evangelist (blank). That is all they need to know.

I always have security when I go out. That means I will not need anyone else to take me to the airport or walk me to the car.

If I am stuck, I will talk on my cellphone. Calling someone means that their is a witness even if I am talkiing to a person who has no idea what I am saying or why I am calling.

The last thing I do is wear a robe. You can't accuse me of tempting you in a robe that covers everything and the kitchen sink.

[firebee]

I work in a field dominated by men.

Do you think that your suggestions are practical and reasonable for women who work in male-dominated fields, particularly...


I never allow them to call me by my first name.
...
I always have security when I go out.
...
The last thing I do is wear a robe.

... these items?

[Evangelist]

Do you think that your suggestions are practical and reasonable for women who work in male-dominated fields, particularly...



... these items?


I think they work for me in my dominated work place. Will you have to create your own listings, well you may. It is a shame to say that we can't go to work and come home without being harrassed, but if you work in a male dominated place, you may have to have a plan. I learned in my field that telling a Bishop meant that he may choose to sweep it under a rug. That does not happen often, but I am not going to lie and say it does not happen. We have to use our head.

[daydreamer]

re: Evangelist - wow. i'm stunned. if i felt threatened enough to have to take those steps i would not work in such a place. one step ! but i realize that isn't always practical.

i think being harassed on the job is quite different than being concerned about being raped. i've worked with a lot of men, some of them sexist, chauvinistic, or misogynistic pigs... lol i guess in the work place i function better under adversity that is clear cut like that (as opposed to more creative types of back-stabbing or political games) because it hasn't slowed me down. spent more time on it than i wanted to, but, if it weren't that, it would be something else !

i did feel creeped out by a co-worker once who locked me in a part of the building with him. i wasn't his direct boss but i was higher up in the chain of command and i got his ass fired same day. i have a low bs tolerance.

[Evangelist]

Daydreamer, sometimes, I did not know what I was walking into. I can remember when a fellow minister made a pass at me while his "ignorant heifer" of a wife watched. She then came up to me and said that I was "high maintenance" and treated me like I was the one approaching him. I handled him and I made sure she was there watching while I did it. When some men get into an environment where they feel an advantage, they take advantage of it. On the other hand, I grew up next to a half-way house ran by a white man we all thought was black named, "Tarzan". Tarzan made it plain that he would kill ya graveyard dead if one of us was violated. His house was full of sex offenders who understood, Tarzan was just as crazy as they were. I got plenty of free snowcones from those ex-inmates and Tarzan was a close family friend. He did not give in to the men around him who acted like he was supposed to understand.

[Tough Love]

re: Evangelist - wow. i'm stunned. if i felt threatened enough to have to take those steps i would not work in such a place. one step ! but i realize that isn't always practical.
.

I have noticed at my workplace (chauvinistic, radically sexist boss):

1. I am treated with more respect when i dont wear makeup.

2. Wearing tight clothes encourages unwelcome comments.

3. Heels are a no no as they make noise on the stairs which becomes topic of conversation.

4. If i take a random day off, i get comments like 'dont take your PMS out on the whole office'.

5. I have to wear a tank top tucked into my trousers so if i lean forward or back no one can possibly see a millimeter of my bum or stomach. My boss takes this as flirting....

I would prefer not to have to follow these rules, but they are self imposed so that i can both keep my job, and be comfortable in the office. If i didnt, it would be a choice between my job, and being comfortable in the office surrounding. And i cannot afford to make that choice now.

[JTG]

1. I am treated with more respect when i dont wear makeup.
personally, i think most girls look better without makeup. professionally speaking, there's a line between wanting to come to work looking nice, and needing to be "made up" as it were. all the "i can't leave the house without my makeup" women do lose a little bit of respect in my eyes (of course, i'm not assuming you are one way or the other)

2. Wearing tight clothes encourages unwelcome comments.
it's a workplace... social conventions dictate that any office job should be worked with office attire. businesslike attire says "let's get down to business" while sexy attire says "let's get down to... business"

3. Heels are a no no as they make noise on the stairs which becomes topic of conversation.
heels confuse me. there's really no practical reason to wear them. noise aside, they exist entirely for show, and they are notorious for causing foot/ankle problems

4. If i take a random day off, i get comments like 'dont take your PMS out on the whole office'.depending on the commenter and recipient, it could range from friendly ribbing to overt hostility. doesn't sound like you take it as kidding if you're complaining about it, so i'll say the people you're describing sound like jerks on this one

5. I have to wear a tank top tucked into my trousers so if i lean forward or back no one can possibly see a millimeter of my bum or stomach. My boss takes this as flirting....
that's pretty dumb. while tucked shirts are pretty standard office uniform, an accidental display of a small portion of midriff is hardly an invitation to make personal or off-color comments. your boss sounds kinda douche-y

i dunno... overall i think there's a big gap between the accepted (expected) way for women to act and what i consider a logical, good-sense way to act. i'm glad i'm male for that reason, because i don't think i'd care enough to fit in as a woman. at least if a guy has no fashion sense it's socially acceptable.

[AlR]

I have noticed at my workplace (chauvinistic, radically sexist boss): ....




Why type of work do you do and what industry? Sounds like a place where people are always jockeying for status (technically any group would require individuals to jockey for status...but you know what I mean).

[daydreamer]

heels confuse me. there's really no practical reason to wear them. noise aside, they exist entirely for show, and they are notorious for causing foot/ankle problems
depending on the commenter and recipient, it could range from friendly ribbing to overt hostility. doesn't sound like you take it as kidding if you're complaining about it, so i'll say the people you're describing sound like jerks on this one


i never wear noisy heels, or walk in a way to make noise... lol but i do wear heels. at 5'4" they are quite helpful. i even wear high flip flops. i get a lot less neck/should strain as things are generally built for taller people, for instance, i notice a big difference in the kitchen. being a small woman in a man's world can sometimes be like being left-handed in a right-handed world: there are ergonomic challenges even though they are not always easily noticeable, and vary on an individual basis.

there are plenty of comfortable high-heeled shoes and boots out there.

[LordCorbin]

I treat women the same way I would expect someone to treat my mother. Why do people(men) feel they are allowed to engage in this type of behavior? I am seriously baffled on this point.

[RedIrish]

I am hearing a lot of self censorship in this thread. The long robe is especially disturbing as it carries burqa connotations that make me uncomfortable. I worry when women dumb themselves down, so that men won't notice them, or make them uncomfortable, or try and diminish them. I am only responsible for myself, and my actions. I expect men to be responsible for theirs. I totally disagree with those men who try and project their own inability to control their own actions/urges/predjudices onto someone else.

Before I went back to university I worked 14 years in the almost totally male dominated construction industry, driving a dump truck, heavy equipment and cement mixer. I worked with some of the greatest guys, and some of the rudest, most misogynistic types around, many with criminal records and others with just plain bad attitudes. During all of this, I wore work appropriate clothes, acted in professionally appropriate manner, and never tolerated any disrespect. Yes, I did occasionally have to get loud or obnoxious in order to get someone to back off, but at no time did I tip toe around, or modify my basic behaviour or attitudes in order to keep my job. I can only recall two occasions where I felt unsafe, and I handled both of those through the proper channels.

Today I work in finance. I show up in smokin' hot business suits and high heels, or gorgeous silk dresses and designer pumps. I wear make up and style my red hair. I stride down the halls, my heels clicking. It's about power, I have it, I'm gonna use it and nobody better try and push me around. I am smarter than most of the men I work with, and they know it. And I don't take any crap, and they know it.

I have attitude, and I don't care. It works for me. I am fabulous.

[smabers]

I work in a field dominated by men. I am a minister and most of my colleagues are men. If you don't think a brother in a robe can't get touch feely, your wrong. I have learned that some men lose boundaries when they are in a position to make an advance. Here are some of the things I do so that they don't get the wrong idea.

I never let them whisper, I make them talk loud enough so that anyone can hear our conversation, including their wives.

I never let them hug me. Even if that means taking their hands off my shoulders, pushing them back and giving them a handshake.

I never allow them to call me by my first name. When they ask my name, I say Reverand or Evangelist (blank). That is all they need to know.

I always have security when I go out. That means I will not need anyone else to take me to the airport or walk me to the car.

If I am stuck, I will talk on my cellphone. Calling someone means that their is a witness even if I am talkiing to a person who has no idea what I am saying or why I am calling.

The last thing I do is wear a robe. You can't accuse me of tempting you in a robe that covers everything and the kitchen sink.

You should just stay at home. But when you do go out, you should wear a burka. This way you don't have to ever be around men, and when you are, they won't be able to see you.

[Samoan Corleone]

I work in a field dominated by men. I am a minister and most of my colleagues are men. If you don't think a brother in a robe can't get touch feely, your wrong.

That's definitely a suprise to me. Let's say that you're not just making something out of nothing regarding their "touchy feeliness" (which isn't always the case, but it can't be ruled out), how'd they be able to work in such a field behaving like that (mind you, my church doesn't have the cleanest record either).

[Prunesquallor]

I just act completely unimpressed when they try to show off.
They therefore hate me, so I get left alone.
It works.

[Vagrant]

I treat women the same way I would expect someone to treat my mother. Why do people(men) feel they are allowed to engage in this type of behavior? I am seriously baffled on this point.

Likewise. I treat everybody with the same respect I'd give my mother unless I feel it's clear they're flirting with me, or not giving me any respect.

Don't get me wrong -- my eyes will wander should I see a rather attractive woman, but that's natural of anybody. I just think it's rude to start making comeons when it's clearly not asked for.

[INTJoe]

As a male with a typical 9-5 office job I can assure that I've probably been sexually harassed at least 10 times by women. I've never (well, I can say knowingly) made a girl feel uncomfortable at work. I think sex and the workplace should in no way mix, but that's my personal philosophy. I understand a lot of people have difficulty meeting people and work is obviously a place where you're stuck with members of the opposite sex all day.

Anyway, I find much of the sexual harassment nonsense to be just that - nonsense. Like I said, I've been made to feel uncomfortable on several occassions, and I've seen my friend be put into the same spot. Actually, he also happens to be an INTJ. Of course neither of us complains because we don't feel the need to bitch and moan to get ahead in life. I acknowledge that there certainly are environments in which women feel threatened, and similar language will make a woman feel much more threatened than a man. I'm not saying it's all nonsense - it certainly isn't.

I just wish women realized that y'all harass us guys a shit-ton, too. Glass houses...

[rickster]

Today I work in finance. I show up in smokin' hot business suits and high heels, or gorgeous silk dresses and designer pumps. I wear make up and style my red hair. I stride down the halls, my heels clicking. It's about power, I have it, I'm gonna use it and nobody better try and push me around. I am smarter than most of the men I work with, and they know it. And I don't take any crap, and they know it.

I have attitude, and I don't care. It works for me. I am fabulous.

You go girl - you work that shit fer all it's worth. Because you are fabulous. ;)

As a male with a typical 9-5 office job I can assure that I've probably been sexually harassed at least 10 times by women. I've never (well, I can say knowingly) made a girl feel uncomfortable at work. I think sex and the workplace should in no way mix, but that's my personal philosophy. I understand a lot of people have difficulty meeting people and work is obviously a place where you're stuck with members of the opposite sex all day.

Anyway, I find much of the sexual harassment nonsense to be just that - nonsense. Like I said, I've been made to feel uncomfortable on several occassions, and I've seen my friend be put into the same spot. Actually, he also happens to be an INTJ. Of course neither of us complains because we don't feel the need to bitch and moan to get ahead in life. I acknowledge that there certainly are environments in which women feel threatened, and similar language will make a woman feel much more threatened than a man. I'm not saying it's all nonsense - it certainly isn't.

I just wish women realized that y'all harass us guys a shit-ton, too. Glass houses...

You do understand don't you that a reasonable amount of coercion - especially in terms of your potential advancement on the job - must be demonstrated to establish sexual harassment?

"Feeling threatened" doesn't cut it: that's a matter which should be dealt with by an employer's code of conduct procedures for employees.

[SuperBenjamin]

My gosh, it must be tough being a woman..... I as a guy have never been harassed sexually nor have I harass any woman sexually. I don't understand why some guys do, it is not like she will spread her legs to you after enough harassment. I think guys that do it do not have self control over themselves and possibly no sense of action and result.

I tend to see woman getting harassed by OTHER woman too.(non sexual) Especially the attractive ladies. I know two ladies in my life that rather hang out with her guy friends and hardly hang out with other ladies. They are attractive and I don't see any evidence of them getting sexually harassed in their group of friends.

[Causa Mortis]

As a male with a typical 9-5 office job I can assure that I've probably been sexually harassed at least 10 times by women. I've never (well, I can say knowingly) made a girl feel uncomfortable at work. I think sex and the workplace should in no way mix, but that's my personal philosophy. I understand a lot of people have difficulty meeting people and work is obviously a place where you're stuck with members of the opposite sex all day.

I just wish women realized that y'all harass us guys a shit-ton, too. Glass houses...

Sexual harassment isn't one instance of low level "I feel uncomfortable with this subtle flirting or mildly inappropriate conversation subject." Its more than one instance of "I feel uncomfortable despite the fact that I've communicated I'm uncomfortable with a low-level interaction", an inappropriate physical-sexual advance, or implying or stating that doing something sexual will impact your status in the workforce in some capacity.

This stuff is a lot more commonly perpetrated by men than by women in large part because society says men should be the aggressors. Women don't pursue as often generally, and when they've pursued me they've typically done so with more class than my guy friends pursue women.

[IrishGuy]

This stuff is a lot more commonly perpetrated by men than by women in large part because society says men should be the aggressors. Women don't pursue as often generally, and when they've pursued me they've typically done so with more class than my guy friends pursue women.

I agree men are traditionally trained to be the "aggressors" in any relationship, but there is also power dynamic in the workplace. People in positions of power can acquire an entitlement complex (I have the power; I can have whatever I want). Simply put, people in power may have a problem taking no for an answer. This dynamic can lead to sexual harassment regardless of gender. As more and more women enter traditionally male positions of power, look to see more sexual harassment claims filed by men. This is not to say that all instances of sexual harassment follow this profile, but power is a corrupting influence that is gender neutral.

Another scenario that can arise is sexual harassment towards a female boss by subordinates. The actions of the subordinates (more likely men but also women) represent an indirect method of undermining the boss's authority. Which way the harassment goes would depend a lot on the personalities of the boss and coworkers. Another method of reasserting control over a boss would be to file a false sexual harassment claim. There are reports of men doing this to try and "get back" at a female boss, but false claims are certainly not isolated to men.

Another thing to consider is social pressure. Sexual harassment is much more likely to go unreported if the victim is male. A lot of this has to do with the traditional stereotype that men are supposed to be "manly" and "invulnerable." Also, men are much less likely to recognize when they are being sexually harassed. Some of this is social conditioning in that men are trained to brush off insults (ever see a group of guys taking pot shots at each other for shits and giggles). I think this general ignorance among men is what helps to maintain a double standard in the workplace. The men who do recognize sexual harassment may feel that women can get away with anything in the workplace while they can get away with nothing when in reality women are getting away with sexual harassment because men are too worried about public scrutiny to file a report or men generally do not recognize when they are being harassed. (Note: this assumes that the definition of sexual harassment is the same for men as it is women).

[rickster]

I think this general ignorance among men is what helps to maintain a double standard in the workplace. The men who do recognize sexual harassment may feel that women can get away with anything in the workplace while they can get away with nothing when in reality women are getting away with sexual harassment because men are too worried about public scrutiny to file a report or men generally do not recognize when they are being harassed. (Note: this assumes that the definition of sexual harassment is the same for men as it is women).

It's not quite as simple as that, and to present it as a women-are-guilty-too idea is just wrong.

Although some women are undoubtedly taking advantage of their power, there is also a spike in men making claims against other men. This clearly indicates that training on the matter is generally poor and biased in a number of areas, with companies rushing to establish workplace policy and culture which doesn't work to effectively eliminate the problem consistently and entirely.

It's however worth noting that, at least in the US, claims are actually dropping in general.

[IrishGuy]

It's not quite as simple as that, and to present it as a women-are-guilty-too idea is just wrong.

Although some women are undoubtedly taking advantage of their power, there is also a spike in men making claims against other men. This clearly indicates that training on the matter is generally poor and biased in a number of areas, with companies rushing to establish workplace policy and culture which doesn't work to effectively eliminate the problem consistently and entirely.

It's however worth noting that, at least in the US, claims are actually dropping in general.

Causa seemed to be implying that sexual harassment in the workplace was a male to female issue due to male aggressiveness. My argument is that it is not as simple as male to female nor is it all about male aggressiveness in the workplace. My argument is that a lot of sexual harassment comes from position power. The rest of my argument is to acknowledge that sexual harassment has multiple origins.

As for my post being a "women are guilty too idea," it is. The reason that we must acknowledge that "women are guilty too" is because the workplace consists of men and women. This is a sort of managerial perspective. If we get too focused on the issue being male to female then it can take away from the broader origins of workplace sexual harassment (such as power dynamics). It's these gender neutral origins that are of the most concern for corporate managers since this is what they can actually control. Companies cannot take action using information that men are more likely to be guilty of sexual harassment to reduce reduce workplace sexual harassment. The company could be sued for gender discrimination. Thus, "women are guilty too" must be the foundation for any workplace sexual harassment action or program (men and women must be treated as equally likely to be perps/victims is what I'm saying).

Yes male to male claims are rising, but the above still applies to that. Some of that rush to implement policy is a knee jerk reaction to avoid future lawsuits. A company's primary concerned is "how to we avoid a lawsuit."

Yes, claims in the US are dropping but the gender proportions of those claims are changing rapidly. The claims made by men have doubled as the overall number of claims has declined. My thoughts on that are that men in general are sexually harassing women less (threat of lawsuit/job loss are serving as a deterrent), but male to male harassment is increasing or men are slowly becoming more aware of what sexual harassment is and female to male harassment is increasing (more women in the workplace/positions of power). This would explain the increase in claims by men and the decrease in claims by women.

Edit: I would guess that the men who are victims from men or from women share some personality traits.
Also, there could be an under-reporting of women to women sexual harassment. Although, I don't have a good enough understanding of female to female relationships to give a good explanation of that.

[Slacker]

5. I have to wear a tank top tucked into my trousers so if i lean forward or back no one can possibly see a millimeter of my bum or stomach. My boss takes this as flirting...

This is the only part I don't understand. Ignoring for the moment the boss, who seems to have an unnaturally active fantasy. The poor guy's life must be even more dreary than my own.

But why would it ever be appropriate to show your stomach or bum at the work place? Is it ever appropriate for men? Would I be taken seriously by women if I wore short shirts and low-cut trousers to show them my hairy bum and stomach? Say that I'm a Brad Pit lookalike, and you actually wanted to see these (and other) parts. Would that put you in a working mood? Or say I looked like myself. Wouldn't the gag reflex interfere with your work?

The reason I take issue is that this comment seemed to be part of the "hardships that poor women face in the workplace" series. This one doesn't compute.

[INTJoe]

Sexual harassment isn't one instance of low level "I feel uncomfortable with this subtle flirting or mildly inappropriate conversation subject." Its more than one instance of "I feel uncomfortable despite the fact that I've communicated I'm uncomfortable with a low-level interaction", an inappropriate physical-sexual advance, or implying or stating that doing something sexual will impact your status in the workforce in some capacity.


Of course, but be aware there are a lot of women out there with power these days. This isn't your dad's workplace anymore. Tons of women are in positions to use the same sexual leverage over guys in the workplace. To act like it doesn't happen to both men and women is being short-sighted. Granted, a women will typically be more physically threatened by such an act, but a man will be equally socially threatened, so it still can be pretty bad for guys.

It basically comes down to there are a lot of people out there (men and women) who have no idea how to handle power. It's a shame really, because some of these people are otherwise very bright.

[KeithIndy]

Evangelist, I feel really badly for you that you have to put up with that behavior from men who should know better. I'd have problem staying in a church that would sweep the sins of it's clergy under the rug. God's grace must be calling you to stay there for some reason.

[MikeC]

I love my secretary because she doesn't believe in sexual harassment. :thu:

[jonnyb]

I can understand why you go through such pains as to not implicate yourself in any awkward positions as your sole beliefs also include avoiding the appearance of evil...at least I would assume.

I have to also be careful in my workplace. I work with all women. I sometimes think they want to set me up. Some of them ask for back massages, want to know my opinion about smutty magazine articles they are reading and leave laying around the work area and try to get me entangled in their personal affairs.

Not that I am unwilling to ever partake, I just don't want any part of the crap as long as I am clocked in at work. I have to continually be on gaurd so as not to implicate myself while in my professional obligations. I also have additional pressure that I am the male and will be deemed the agressor by the hman resources if anything ever went there. Hate to stereotype but I would clearly have the disadvantage.

[The Psyentist]

Today I work in finance. I show up in smokin' hot business suits and high heels, or gorgeous silk dresses and designer pumps. I wear make up and style my red hair. I stride down the halls, my heels clicking. It's about power, I have it, I'm gonna use it and nobody better try and push me around. I am smarter than most of the men I work with, and they know it. And I don't take any crap, and they know it.

I have attitude, and I don't care. It works for me. I am fabulous.

AMAZING. I think I love you. Haha...really though I'm similar in such ways. And I don't take crap from men...or women for that matter for the way I am/how they feel about me in my high heels, glamourous makeup, coordinated outfits and jewelry.

I will probably tone it down a bit when I start my full-time career because sexy+psychiatrist=possible bad client situations...but I will still be wearing stilettos and stylist outfits.

[IrishGuy]

Originally Posted by RedIrish View Post

Today I work in finance. I show up in smokin' hot business suits and high heels, or gorgeous silk dresses and designer pumps. I wear make up and style my red hair. I stride down the halls, my heels clicking. It's about power, I have it, I'm gonna use it and nobody better try and push me around. I am smarter than most of the men I work with, and they know it. And I don't take any crap, and they know it.

I have attitude, and I don't care. It works for me. I am fabulous.


I've talked to many managers, taken management classes, and spoken with my management parent and stepparent about how to manage power. This is usually something that would come up as a red flag. It's one thing to be confident and proud of one's status and achievements but it is quite another to be in love with power; that sense of entitlement that comes with the position is what leads to abuses of power in the workplace.

That attitude can make employees less willing to come and talk with you when they have a problem, which can lead to them filing complaints above you or with HR. Of course, every field requires a different management type, but by and large groups have become popular in the workplace which means that managers are increasingly required to have solid consensus building skills.

I know for a fact that male managers who manage with the attitude that "I've got power and nobody is going to mess with me" are definitely told to "take it down a notch." Gaining respect from attitude and intimidation is not a recipe for long term success.

[daydreamer]

I've talked to many managers, taken management classes, and spoken with my management parent and stepparent about how to manage power. This is usually something that would come up as a red flag. It's one thing to be confident and proud of one's status and achievements but it is quite another to be in love with power; that sense of entitlement that comes with the position is what leads to abuses of power in the workplace.

That attitude can make employees less willing to come and talk with you when they have a problem, which can lead to them filing complaints above you or with HR. Of course, every field requires a different management type, but by and large groups have become popular in the workplace which means that managers are increasingly required to have solid consensus building skills.

I know for a fact that male managers who manage with the attitude that "I've got power and nobody is going to mess with me" are definitely told to "take it down a notch." Gaining respect from attitude and intimidation is not a recipe for long term success.

i didn't hear her say anything about intimidation.

employees are at least as likely, if not more, to seek help and leadership from those in authority who exhibit comfort with their own power than those who do not. i defy you to present stats proving your claim that employees would be less willing to come and talk with someone powerful.

what the heck do you mean by solid consensus skills? corporate decisions are not made by gathering a consensus from the bottom and implementing a plan of action; decisions come from the top and are distributed down by managers.

besides, i don't see that redirish was asserting that she was in management. she's right. power is attitude. you have to show your power to compete with those at your level - regardless if you are managing anyone or not. i see nothing in her post that suggests she is talking about abusing some sort of authority.

[Seriously]

I've never had a problem with sexual harassment probably because I have a thick skin. Things that might bother other people just slide right off me. The manager who makes comments about my boobs...so what? As long as I do my job and get paid I could care less. The owner who drops a pen on the floor so I have to pick it up...I do it back to him and make the same comment he made to me. Flip it, ignore it and and/or get on with my job.

[INTJoe]

Just because it doesn't bother you, Seriously, doesn't mean those people are behaving ethically. The argument can't be "It's OK, because I don't mind." Your superiors should not be making such comments to you, unless you outright welcome and encourage them.

[Seriously]

There are a lot of things in this world that aren't right. This isn't a battle I care to fight personally. I don't have a problem if someone else does but I prefer to just ignore it. And the fact that I do ignore it tends to make it less appealing to the person doing it. Just like a bully they are usually looking for a reaction. IMO

[cara]

I work in a field dominated by men. I am a minister and most of my colleagues are men. If you don't think a brother in a robe can't get touch feely, your wrong. I have learned that some men lose boundaries when they are in a position to make an advance. Here are some of the things I do so that they don't get the wrong idea.

I never let them whisper, I make them talk loud enough so that anyone can hear our conversation, including their wives.

I never let them hug me. Even if that means taking their hands off my shoulders, pushing them back and giving them a handshake.

I never allow them to call me by my first name. When they ask my name, I say Reverand or Evangelist (blank). That is all they need to know.

I always have security when I go out. That means I will not need anyone else to take me to the airport or walk me to the car.

If I am stuck, I will talk on my cellphone. Calling someone means that their is a witness even if I am talkiing to a person who has no idea what I am saying or why I am calling.

The last thing I do is wear a robe. You can't accuse me of tempting you in a robe that covers everything and the kitchen sink.

what are you afraid of, Evangelist?

[Evangelist]

Cara, churchwork has a political side. The men I can handle, but the women will killya.

[cara]

so you are afraid that the women could think that you are a bit too 'nice' to the(ir) men and you loosing your reputation (or even job)?

[Evangelist]

Yep, Pentecostal women are notorious for being protective of husbands because they are in short supply. Because our churches are mainly women, it is the women who are the most aggressive. The man may make the advance, but it's the woman who will go in for the kill. You can bet she has a posse that is watching you and you unwillingly become a third person in their marriage if the wife thinks the husband is remotely attracted to you. I believe that people can and do have multiple attractions while married. It then is a battle because it is easier for a woman to fight a woman than deal her man with a roving eye. You have to approach it on both fronts.

[cara]

what a challenge. sounds as if you had to live (or rather work) with maybe deprivations currently. maybe working on topics related to 'trust' and 'openness' (considering attractions to others while being married) in your church could help ease the situation for the wives?!

[Vagrant]

I know for a fact that male managers who manage with the attitude that "I've got power and nobody is going to mess with me" are definitely told to "take it down a notch." Gaining respect from attitude and intimidation is not a recipe for long term success.I've noticed the best managers tend to be the ones who have "been there" and know what it's like to be a plebian. It seems that the longer you're out of touch with normal working conditions, the poorer of a manager you become.

Everytime I've gotten to a managerial position, I've always tried to keep in touch with what things were like before I got that position, or I felt like I wasn't doing my job right.

That said though, a good manager also isn't afraid to take control of a situation when it's necessary. And since he'll know what it's like for those beneath him, he'll have their support as well.

[IrishGuy]

i didn't hear her say anything about intimidation.

employees are at least as likely, if not more, to seek help and leadership from those in authority who exhibit comfort with their own power than those who do not. i defy you to present stats proving your claim that employees would be less willing to come and talk with someone powerful.

what the heck do you mean by solid consensus skills? corporate decisions are not made by gathering a consensus from the bottom and implementing a plan of action; decisions come from the top and are distributed down by managers.

besides, i don't see that redirish was asserting that she was in management. she's right. power is attitude. you have to show your power to compete with those at your level - regardless if you are managing anyone or not. i see nothing in her post that suggests she is talking about abusing some sort of authority.

My argument was about the behaviors associated with her diction. The force of it implies an infatuation with power. What would happen to an individual who decided to present an idea that counters a person who thinks "I have attitude, and I don't care. It works for me. I am fabulous?" Chances are they are going to be shot down harshly and possibly berated for daring to "challenge the boss." The attitude was combative. Good managers do not combat their employees; they manage them. I'm saying that that combative attitude is what leads to abuses in power such as sexual harassment.

It seems to me that you are misinterpreting the meaning of "consensus building" within a corporation. The model that distributes decisions strictly from the top down is a command structure. The military is a good example of this; I am the commander and I give you an order and you follow it. No questions asked. What is the problem with this model? You don't get any feedback from the bottom. So if you're not as smart as you thought you were you'll never find out until it is too late. The US military has discovered this during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and is now beginning to learn that it needs group feedback from the front line. Most of the private sector now uses management structures built around consensus building instead of strict commands.

In a consensus building model the manager will still give directives to go top down, but the employees are encouraged to speak up if there are problems with the directive. The group (usually, the people who answer directly to the boss) then works together with the manager acting as a facilitator to improve the directive. Obviously, if there is a deadlock then the manager makes a command decision but under this model there is a two way dialogue that can help to isolate and eliminate problems.

[daydreamer]

My argument was about the behaviors associated with her diction. The force of it implies an infatuation with power.


that's a stretch. subjective opinion. mine's different.


What would happen to an individual who decided to present an idea that counters a person who thinks "I have attitude, and I don't care. It works for me. I am fabulous?" Chances are they are going to be shot down harshly and possibly berated for daring to "challenge the boss." The attitude was combative. Good managers do not combat their employees; they manage them. I'm saying that that combative attitude is what leads to abuses in power such as sexual harassment.


having an attitude and power are not gateway drugs to sexual harassment.

her attitude was not combative. but yours is clearly an attempt at passive aggressive.


Most of the private sector now uses management structures built around consensus building instead of strict commands.

In a consensus building model the manager will still give directives to go top down, but the employees are encouraged to speak up if there are problems with the directive. The group (usually, the people who answer directly to the boss) then works together with the manager acting as a facilitator to improve the directive. Obviously, if there is a deadlock then the manager makes a command decision but under this model there is a two way dialogue that can help to isolate and eliminate problems.

you profess to know a lot. i'd like to know what your experience with the corporate world really is. the "chain of command" is alive and well in the corporate sector. even google adheres to it 4 out of 5 days of the week.

you give no clues as to what you mean by "directive." i'm going to assume you mean where the company is going, what it should be doing, what projects it should be working on.

it seems to me you have misinterpreted the use of specialists and experts in a white collar setting. these positions have always existed, but they are more common as technology continues to marginalize much of the work that was performed by unskilled labor, and specialists/experts are required to maintain the technology, in addition to the jobs that specialists/experts already were performing. they are responsible for knowing their job and making recommendations to management regarding timelines and project benchmarks/milestones. they are often called upon to research different options and management consults them to get their suggestions and then make a decision. but the command structure is well-intact. corporations cannot function if directive decisions about where the company is going, what it is doing, are made by democracy at the lower levels.

[RedIrish]

Wow, I never would have thought that my comments regarding my attitude towards sexual harassment could hijack a thread.

So let's see if I can address some of this.

Irish Guy, read my original post as an entire piece. I have worked in a world that you have never experienced. And if you want to avoid sexual harassment, your attitude is everything. What you didn't seem to get is my sense of humour. I am fabulous, I am also smarter than most, and I don't take any crap. And if I walk down the halls like I own the place two things happen, people trust me, and people don't give me any grief. Have you never seen a woman strut down the street like she owned it? It's about confidence. And confidence inspires respect and trust.

And women with confidence won't tolerate sexual harassment. We won't be put down, belittled, made to measure our words, or censure our thoughts. We sure as hell won't allow someone else to dictate our appearance, or our actions. We do not walk on eggshells because we are afraid that someone might take our words or actions the wrong way. We have equally as much right to move about in the world as anyone else, without fear or reticence.

I am not in management at the moment, and have been putting off getting a junior associate, so only have responsibility for my assistant right now. The assistant is happy working for me, probably because she enjoys a great deal of autonomy, and is paid well comeasurate with her responsibilities.

I have to assume that my "infatuation with power" is well in check, since the other staff tend to treat me as a resource, and bring me both professional and personal problems for advice.

Senior management have not expressed any concern about my attitude, and when they headhunted me, they stated that was one of the things they were looking for. My bosses (all 3 of them) don't have any difficulty with my attitude. As long as I hit the numbers, and my customers are singing the halleuhia chorus, I can run my own show. I must assume they like the way I run my show, since we have been having discussions about my taking on a junior associate, and hiring a few more people to expand my office. Although my assistant may enjoy more autonomy than usual, Daydreamer is absolutely correct, this is not a democracy. There is a job to be done, and I decide which standards will apply, and what benchmarks constitute success.

Although, like most INTJs I can be autocratic and authoritative when the situation requires it, in fact, as a financial planner, my job is to help people solve their problems. And they bring me them all. I don't only deal with retirement and wealth management, but with divorces, messy estate fights, trustee issues for drug addicted young offspring, compromises for prenups, elder abuse and couples who can't agree on anything, especially their money.

These people come to be because of my confidence, they trust that I can solve their problems because I have the confidence that I can do a good job, and it shows.

Daydreamer is correct. Grad school and management theory sound really good. In theory. In real life, things don't quite follow the book. The latest and greatest management theories have not yet percolated down into the trenches, where those on the front lines know that about the time word arrives from the ivory tower, it will be superceded by a "new and improved" version of the latest thinking. Easiest to just sit tight and wait it out, they'll change their minds again soon enough.

At the end of the day the question is still about sexual harassment in the workplace, and what type of behaviour is acceptable, and how much bull should women be expected to tolerate just for the privilege of keeping her job.

My answer was, and still is, not a dammed bit.

A woman is not responsible for other people's inability to control their sexual or other misogynistic attitudes. If men don't like it, too bad. We make up more than 50% of the human race, and we won't be forced to be second class citizens just cause a couple guys can't stand a little honest competition.

[IrishGuy]

No, I can't imagine working in the same environment as you but, I do know what it is like to work in a field dominated by women. I'm a Biological Sciences major and researcher. The major is ~65% women and the research is ~80% women. Misandristic and sexist comments are not uncommon.

I didn't get the humor in your previous post. So your last post does clear things up a bit.

No a woman is not responsible for the sexual and misogynistic attitudes of others, but she is responsible for those attitudes within herself. One of my earlier arguments was about position power and how that can give rise to a sense of entitlement. Your post interpreted without the humor seemed to indicate this. I really get the impression that people think of workplace sexual harassment as a "man's disease." I've always seen it as a disease of power or the pursuit of power. This does not change the negative nature of sexual harassment. What that perspective allows us to do is to look for behavioral traits and attitudes that lead to sexual harassment. Data shows that sexual harassment complaints are down but, the number of sexual harassment complaints against women has doubled. The data is relatively new, but it is still a possible indicator that there is a variable at play that is independent of gender that leads to workplace sexual harassment. To me that is the most important thing to find.

On another note, people are not allowed to wear whatever they want nor are they able to say everything that they want to in the workplace. There are dress codes and behavioral codes of conduct in the workplace. As you put before the workplace is not a democracy.

We do not walk on eggshells because we are afraid that someone might take our words or actions the wrong way. We have equally as much right to move about in the world as anyone else, without fear or reticence.
Lucky you....

Bottom line I didn't see any humor at all in previous your post. Hence the mixup.

[KeithIndy]

RedIrish - Walk and talk with authority, and people will treat you with respect. Good advice for everyone, man or woman. It always amazes me how few people will look you in the eye as you walk past them. I've always classified people into, prey, predator, and protector. Predator and protector are the ones more likely to be walking heads up, aware of their surroundings.

One thing people should keep in mind is that one persons way of dealing with a situation is not a playbook for everyone to follow. What works for one person may not be right for another. Being able to expound on the different ways we handle situations lets people pick and choose the ways they will deal with it.

[INTJoe]

RedIrish - Walk and talk with authority, and people will treat you with respect. Good advice for everyone, man or woman.

This advice is faulty at best. We need to define "treat you with respect" before we can even make such sweeping generalities. For instance, the way people are treated face-to-face is often not the same as how they're treated behind the scenes. If women, "prey" as you would label them, act inferior in her presence because she oozes sex and her heels are very loud, sending out the alpha vibe, how do you know they aren't staging a coup behind her back?

Walking and talking with authority is never a direct recipe for respect. Respect is hard to define, and hard to attain, but people know it when they see it.

[KeithIndy]

I didn't label any women 'prey'

It's all in the attitude.

[NoOne]

There are two sides also to that note, I once had a female supervisor, rebuffing her advances cost me 14 months of no work. It cost me a great deal.

I once had a come on from a lady that worked acrost from me, I use to try to disuade her in various ways. One day I got really serious, and told her that I use to be just like her. She got real serious. I then said, yes, I use to be just like you till I had my sex change operation.


some people just don't take kindly to humor.

Well, I lost my job near her because she said she felt intimidated by my computer. I was the first to bring in a pc to work, and eventually the right was negotiated for everyone.

Men are also victems of sexual harrassment. But I don't think men talk about it much. Often men have to stand alone on the issue, and take being victemized for refusal.

[INTJoe]

I didn't label any women 'prey'

It's all in the attitude.

You just said you label people "predator", "prey", and "protector"... are you telling me you never labeled a woman who didn't dress slutty...sorry..."powerful"...at work, and behave loudly as "prey"?

There are many people out there who see a woman like that and instantly think "floozy", right or wrong. So to act like simply walking and talking authoratively and embracing your "sexual power" over men or whatever is some recipe for respect is absolutely preposterous.

I once played baseball with a guy who was terrible and made a big mental mistake in one of our games. I tore into him in an email, and I made the "mistake" of calling him "kid". He went on a rant that he served in the US Army, and demands more respect than to be called "kid". I told him that was fine and dandy (I didn't even know he was in the service until that point), and that I respected what he's done for our Country, but that you don't automatically get respect on the baseball diamond because of what you've done in some other arena. You've got to earn respect of your teammates, starting from scratch. He had none of our respect because he was really bad and made terrible mental and physical mistakes. I had very little respect for his ability as a ballplayer. This guy was totally delusional.

I think there are a lot of people out there who have a high amount of respect in one arena, and assume it carries over to all other arenas. The "Do you know who I am!?" deal. You see it everywhere. People in fancy cars cutting people off on the Highway, as if they don't have to follow the rules of society because they have a corner office. Well sorry pal, if we throw down, you don't get extra points for being a CEO. Respect has to be earned in each unique arena. OK I'm ranting now. My main point is that respect is not easy to attain, and it certainly isn't as simple as "walk the walk and talk the talk and people will respect you." If it was....we'd all have respect. But if that were the case, the word wouldn't have meaning anymore.

[Brasse]

I think there are a lot of people out there who have a high amount of respect in one arena, and assume it carries over to all other arenas. The "Do you know who I am!?" deal. You see it everywhere. People in fancy cars cutting people off on the Highway, as if they don't have to follow the rules of society because they have a corner office. Well sorry pal, if we throw down, you don't get extra points for being a CEO. Respect has to be earned in each unique arena.

I can't stand such people. But I do find it very entertaining to make them look weak and/or stupid in front of their "subordinates", to rock the core of their tower of power, to watch their "followers'" respect crumble. However, it only applies to individuals who "deserve" it. I would never try to make a harsh-but-fair and respected person look bad in front of coworkers/teammates/classmates et cetera. Not deliberately, anyway ;).