Belief

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Is the tendancy to believe in an external force, like god or fate, a coping mechanism?

[muguly]

It depends. If you use that outside force as the blame then yes. If that outside force is there as a guide then no.

[coffeeloverfreak]

I don't begrudge anyone else their right to believe what they choose (as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others). But to me, belief in a deity or higher power is illogical.

My opinion? Humans created G-d to explain all the things they couldn't explain through science or nature. G-d is just a replacement for the not-yet-known. If you see all of knowledge as a pie, and the knowledge we humans currently have as a tiny sliver of that pie (but ever growing), then you can see that as knowledge increases, belief in superstition or the supernatural decreases.

[Zilal]

I think it's often a coping mechanism, but that's not all it is. It definitely seems hard-wired into the human brain to want to explain things with a higher power.

I don't hold a strict dividing line between faith and science, because it's impossible to be totally scientific about things. Why do I believe in evolution? Was I around for the whole history of the Earth? No, I've only read about the theories. I choose to believe the books I've read for what I happen to think are some very good reasons, but in the end it's not 100% different from someone who believes the Bible is literal truth.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

It depends. If you use that outside force as the blame then yes. If that outside force is there as a guide then no.
But what if the 'guide' is just a way to make you feel less helpless and hopless?





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 2 minutes and 24 seconds later...

I don't begrudge anyone else their right to believe what they choose (as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others). But to me, belief in a deity or higher power is illogical.

My opinion? Humans created G-d to explain all the things they couldn't explain through science or nature. G-d is just a replacement for the not-yet-known. If you see all of knowledge as a pie, and the knowledge we humans currently have as a tiny sliver of that pie (but ever growing), then you can see that as knowledge increases, belief in superstition or the supernatural decreases.
So belief, to you, is not so much a way to cope with things as it is a convenient way to explain what hasn't been explained yet? But, I hear so many people who believe say things like, "it makes me feel better" and such.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 1 minutes and 23 seconds later...

I think it's often a coping mechanism, but that's not all it is. It definitely seems hard-wired into the human brain to want to explain things with a higher power.

I don't hold a strict dividing line between faith and science, because it's impossible to be totally scientific about things. Why do I believe in evolution? Was I around for the whole history of the Earth? No, I've only read about the theories. I choose to believe the books I've read for what I happen to think are some very good reasons, but in the end it's not 100% different from someone who believes the Bible is literal truth.
The hard-wired theory is interesting. Where did this come from....why is it so prevalent?

[safetypin00]

The hard-wired theory is interesting. Where did this come from....why is it so prevalent?

You can always check out the fairly new field of neurotheology. I'm not sure where it came from but I wouldn't be suprised if temporal lobe epilespy seizures, which induce a feeling of being 'one' with the universe and all this other stuff, not too sure, don't know much about it, didn't hint at the fact that the belief of God/in a higher power is localized in the brain. I mean, obviously you can track *everything* in the brain down to physiology and genetics, but the fact that it could be localized, and say if it were the same in every/most people who consider themselves religious, that would be interesting, but, not very suprisning.

[ssfanatic]

I don't begrudge anyone else their right to believe what they choose (as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others). But to me, belief in a deity or higher power is illogical.

So how long have you thought logically about a higher power? Or are you adopting the views of your fellow atheist without thinking about it for yourself?


My opinion? Humans created G-d to explain all the things they couldn't explain through science or nature. G-d is just a replacement for the not-yet-known. If you see all of knowledge as a pie, and the knowledge we humans currently have as a tiny sliver of that pie (but ever growing), then you can see that as knowledge increases, belief in superstition or the supernatural decreases.

True to an extent. Buts its funny how this whole theory fits biblically also. Coincidental or ironic?

[muguly]

But what if the 'guide' is just a way to make you feel less helpless and hopless?

Then it's a coping mechanism. A true guide sheds light on a dark path. People that feel helpless and hopeless often need more that a guide, they need to examine themselves first to find where the problem is originating from. Even if we don't like to admit it, more often than not we are the cause of most of our problems.

[Octavianus Caesar]

To believe in something greater than yourself, can propell you to do greater things, because it can stretch you beyound what people would say or believe about you.

If you believe there is a God and he wants you to prosper in whatever you do, than that belief will drive you to achieve greater things.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

You can always check out the fairly new field of neurotheology. I'm not sure where it came from but I wouldn't be suprised if temporal lobe epilespy seizures, which induce a feeling of being 'one' with the universe and all this other stuff, not too sure, don't know much about it, didn't hint at the fact that the belief of God/in a higher power is localized in the brain. I mean, obviously you can track *everything* in the brain down to physiology and genetics, but the fact that it could be localized, and say if it were the same in every/most people who consider themselves religious, that would be interesting, but, not very suprisning.
I have a theory..............What if, while humans were evolving, the traits that allowed them to survive best were traits like imaginativeness and creativity? What if, the humans with these traits were more likely to survive and, therefore, their genes were passed on and propogated? And what if, the more pronounced these traits were in a human, the more likely that human was to survive ? So that these traits became more and more pronounced within the human species as they evolved.

Fast forward to today and you have this species that has been able to take over the planet due to it's creativness and imagination. However, the species can't necessarily turn this imaginative ability off and on at will. Like a child who sees monsters in the closet.....the human species is both liberated and enslaved by it's own imagination.

Just a theory..........





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 1 minutes and 24 seconds later...

Then it's a coping mechanism. A true guide sheds light on a dark path. People that feel helpless and hopeless often need more that a guide, they need to examine themselves first to find where the problem is originating from. Even if we don't like to admit it, more often than not we are the cause of most of our problems.
So true.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 2 minutes and 31 seconds later...

To believe in something greater than yourself, can propell you to do greater things, because it can stretch you beyound what people would say or believe about you.

If you believe there is a God and he wants you to prosper in whatever you do, than that belief will drive you to achieve greater things.
So, in this case, god is a motivator.

[muguly]

I have a theory..............What if, while humans were evolving, the traits that allowed them to survive best were traits like imaginativeness and creativity? What if, the humans with these traits were more likely to survive and, therefore, their genes were passed on and propogated? And what if, the more pronounced these traits were in a human, the more likely that human was to survive ? So that these traits became more and more pronounced within the human species as they evolved.

Fast forward to today and you have this species that has been able to take over the planet due to it's creativness and imagination. However, the species can't necessarily turn this imaginative ability off and on at will. Like a child who sees monsters in the closet.....the human species is both liberated and enslaved by it's own imagination.

Just a theory...........

Interesting. That could possibly be true. If I can expand on your topic: people who believe in a higher power tend to live more cautiously. They don't drink excessively, don't smoke, don't do drugs etc. So with that in mind, their beliefs could keep them healthier than the rest of the population which in turn would give them a longer life expectancy and the ability to reproduce more offspring who are then raised the same way. :stunned:

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Interesting. That could possibly be true. If I can expand on your topic: people who believe in a higher power tend to live more cautiously. They don't drink excessively, don't smoke, don't do drugs etc. So with that in mind, their beliefs could keep them healthier than the rest of the population which in turn would give them a longer life expectancy and the ability to reproduce more offspring who are then raised the same way. :stunned:
Intriguing, if true. What puzzles me about this is........if someone believes that they only have this one life to live and after that it's game over, then why would they engage in more risk taking behaviors than their counterpart?

Oh yeah..........are you saying that as prehistoric humans evolved, those who had a belief in a higher power were behaving in this manner?

[muguly]

Intriguing, if true. What puzzles me about this is........if someone believes that they only have this one life to live and after that it's game over, then why would they engage in more risk taking behaviors than their counterpart?

Oh yeah..........are you saying that as prehistoric humans evolved, those who had a belief in a higher power were behaving in this manner?

Possibly. As far as scientist know, we've always worshiped something. So if prehistoric man felt the need to praise his god by following a set of guidelines that made his standard of living better...I guess he would have lived longer that the rest. I believe people take more risk than others for the very reason that they only have one life to live. As they see it, once they die there's nothing else so why not just push life as far as it can go? Makes sense though, instead of living for death and the after life, they're living for the sake of living. But, I'm no sociologist so........who knows

[coffeeloverfreak]

You're talking about two separate things: Whether a belief in G-d is logical, and whether a belief in G-d is useful.

The two aren't necessarily related. You could easily say, okay, the rules of logic show that it doesn't make sense to believe in G-d. But people who do tend to be better off. Hence, useful, not logical.

Or the reverse: You could make the argument (how, I'm not sure, but say for the sake of argument that you did). But you could say that belief in G-d is logical and rational... but that it has an incredibly corrupting influence on society. Serfdom, the Crusades, the Inquisition, Jihad, holy wars of all different stripes... religion is a remarkably convenient way to control people and keep them down. Hence, logical, not useful.

I think a lot of it comes down to whether or not you're using a theist system for morality. Does morality necessarily need to stem from religion? Do people who use religion as a guide have a fundamentally better approach than people who don't?

This is a whole other topic so I won't get into it now, but suffice to say that I personally view it as both illogical and potentially dangerous to base morality on religion. I'd be happy to elaborate further on another thread.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Possibly. As far as scientist know, we've always worshiped something. So if prehistoric man felt the need to praise his god by following a set of guidelines that made his standard of living better...I guess he would have lived longer that the rest. I believe people take more risk than others for the very reason that they only have one life to live. As they see it, once they die there's nothing else so why not just push life as far as it can go? Makes sense though, instead of living for death and the after life, they're living for the sake of living. But, I'm no sociologist so........who knows
True....true.....but would prehistoric humans who believed in god be less risk taking because of it? I mean, if your fighting to survive there's really not much room for choice in this regard.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 5 minutes and 35 seconds later...

You're talking about two separate things: Whether a belief in G-d is logical, and whether a belief in G-d is useful..
I'm actually asking whether or not belief in an external force is a way of coping with life for people who have a difficult time dealing with things on their own. Sort of like someone who drinks to cope with things, or someone who looks at porn alot, or people who work all the time.........different ways of coping with different problems, but a similar thread (pardon the pun).

[Octavianus Caesar]

So, in this case, god is a motivator.

God can be a motivator.

[Zilal]

The hard-wired theory is interesting. Where did this come from....why is it so prevalent?

These days I think a lot of it comes from brain studies, but in the past I think it was just from the fact that almost every society known had developed some kind of mythos involving higher powers to explain the world.

[muguly]

True....true.....but would prehistoric humans who believed in god be less risk taking because of it? I mean, if your fighting to survive there's really not much room for choice in this regard.

You're right. The need to survive would override the desire to please a being no one can see. Oh well,........well.............what if it happened like you and I said:the imaginativeness of our ancestors helped them find different ways of survival. Then, perhaps, they found a reason(maybe they had a lucky spear)to worship an object that,to them, gave them the gusto to survive.

Ok, now I've officially gone nucking futs. Too much free time.:faint:

[vaguely dissatisfied]

You're right. The need to survive would override the desire to please a being no one can see. Oh well,........well.............what if it happened like you and I said:the imaginativeness of our ancestors helped them find different ways of survival. Then, perhaps, they found a reason(maybe they had a lucky spear)to worship an object that,to them, gave them the gusto to survive.

Ok, now I've officially gone nucking futs. Too much free time.:faint:
Could be.......could be.................and what if during the evolution of our species those traits selected for, like imaginativeness and creativity, were genetically associated with youth and immaturity? So that the individuals with these traits were actually immature and childlike people.

If you look at the domestic dog you will see that humans have selected for traits that are similar to a wolf puppy. Adult wolves rarely act the way adult dogs do. Extrapolate this to humans and you find a species of animal that has evolved over the millenia into a childlike being. So now the world is populated by a bunch of kids.

[muguly]

Could be.......could be.................and what if during the evolution of our species those traits selected for, like imaginativeness and creativity, were genetically associated with youth and immaturity? So that the individuals with these traits were actually immature and childlike people.

If you look at the domestic dog you will see that humans have selected for traits that are similar to a wolf puppy. Adult wolves rarely act the way adult dogs do. Extrapolate this to humans and you find a species of animal that has evolved over the millenia into a childlike being. So now the world is populated by a bunch of kids.

A world populated by big kids would explain alot. Maybe it's the child like nature that has allowed us to evolve so rapidly. Think about it:some animals have been around for hundreds of thousands of years and haven't changed. Humans are constantly evolving(my theory on that is humans haven't reached their evolutionary potential, other animals have, but that's another thread)into....something. Children learn faster than adults so that could be a trait that was need most for survival, and due to genetics that trait along with some not so pleasent ones, stay around for the long haul. But, a world full of kids make sense, given the current state of things.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

A world populated by big kids would explain alot. Maybe it's the child like nature that has allowed us to evolve so rapidly. Think about it:some animals have been around for hundreds of thousands of years and haven't changed. Humans are constantly evolving(my theory on that is humans haven't reached their evolutionary potential, other animals have, but that's another thread)into....something. Children learn faster than adults so that could be a trait that was need most for survival, and due to genetics that trait along with some not so pleasent ones, stay around for the long haul. But, a world full of kids make sense, given the current state of things.
Yeah............and when you think about it, homo sapiens have more childlike physical features than their earlier ancestors. Big wobbly heads on top of slender necks. Big eyes, a protruding forehead, slender and weak bodies (comparatively). So we've got a bunch of older kids taking care of a bunch of younger kids and the world! And these kids have convinced the other kids that there's a being out there that sees everything you do...so you better watch out.....you better not cry.......you better not pout...... I mean really......why would a bunch of adults be interested in myth and fantasy and romance???

Have you ever read Lord of the Flies?

This actually reminds me of an old Star Trek episode too, but you're probably too young to know what I'm talking about.

[muguly]

Yeah............and when you think about it, homo sapiens have more childlike physical features than their earlier ancestors. Big wobbly heads on top of slender necks. Big eyes, a protruding forehead, slender and weak bodies (comparatively). So we've got a bunch of older kids taking care of a bunch of younger kids and the world! And these kids have convinced the other kids that there's a being out there that sees everything you do...so you better watch out.....you better not cry.......you better not pout...... I mean really......why would a bunch of adults be interested in myth and fantasy and romance???

Have you ever read Lord of the Flies?

This actually reminds me of an old Star Trek episode too, but you're probably too young to know what I'm talking about.

I think adults are interested in myth, fantasy and romance because we no longer have the capacity to imagine anything then what we see. As childern we are told to grow up, stop playing with imaginary friends, and generally to fit into society. That takes our personalities away and stunts the growth of our creative process.So as adults we tend to gravitate to the things we were denied as children. Those things manifest themselves in different ways but ultimately stem from childhood.


Never read Lord of the Flies. It ws a choice in school but I didn't pick it.I'll pick it up this weekend. Also, I did enjoy the reruns of the Original Star Trek.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I think adults are interested in myth, fantasy and romance because we no longer have the capacity to imagine anything then what we see. As childern we are told to grow up, stop playing with imaginary friends, and generally to fit into society. That takes our personalities away and stunts the growth of our creative process.So as adults we tend to gravitate to the things we were denied as children. Those things manifest themselves in different ways but ultimately stem from childhood.


Never read Lord of the Flies. It ws a choice in school but I didn't pick it.I'll pick it up this weekend. Also, I did enjoy the reruns of the Original Star Trek.
Yeah..........but what if adults like myth because they're really just older kids?

I think you'll like Lord of the Flies it's really well written and thought provoking.

Do you remeber the episode of the original Star Trek where they land on a planet where there are no adults left....only kids?

[muguly]

Yeah..........but what if adults like myth because they're really just older kids?

I think you'll like Lord of the Flies it's really well written and thought provoking.

Do you remeber the episode of the original Star Trek where they land on a planet where there are no adults left....only kids?


Adults are big kids...I'm a big kid! I vaguely remember that episode. I'll see if I can find it online.