Another problem with my INTJ son

[karenann33]

Yes I know he might change and he's too young to type (he just turned 9). I get that. At the moment he is an absolute clone of me so that's what I'm working with now.

My son recently started boy scouts. The leader is ex military. In trying to keep control over a bunch of 8-9 year old boys he is like a drill seargent (my son hates loud noises of any kind). My son was ok with that because he knew it wasn't aimed at him. But then it came time for him to test for his first badge. He knew the material but the drill seargent unnerved him with his larger than life presence. My son is a small, sensitive soul. So my son couldn't remember a word. The guy still being loud jokingly bopped my son over the head with the handbook. This went on for several minutes until my son started crying...in class. At that point my husband stepped in and dealt with it. As a parting comment the drill seargent rambled something about this being only the 3rd boy he'd made cry.

I wasn't there but heard it all when my son came home in tears.

My husband feels like this guy did nothing wrong and I believe him. I know the instructor. He's a great guy but he is in fact in your face loud.

How would you handle this?

[deinotes]

Yes I know he might change and he's too young to type (he just turned 9). I get that. At the moment he is an absolute clone of me so that's what I'm working with now.

My son recently started boy scouts. The leader is ex military. In trying to keep control over a bunch of 8-9 year old boys he is like a drill sergeant (my son hates loud noises of any kind). My son was ok with that because he knew it wasn't aimed at him. But then it came time for him to test for his first badge. He knew the material but the drill sergeant unnerved him with his larger than life presence. My son is a small, sensitive soul. So my son couldn't remember a word. The guy still being loud jokingly bopped my son over the head with the handbook. This went on for several minutes until my son started crying...in class. At that point my husband stepped in and dealt with it. As a parting comment the drill sergeant rambled something about this being only the 3rd boy he'd made cry.

I wasn't there but heard it all when my son came home in tears.

My husband feels like this guy did nothing wrong and I believe him. I know the instructor. He's a great guy but he is in fact in your face loud.

How would you handle this?
Practice with him , be loud and obnoxious and try to teach him that's it's nothing to be afraid of.

[Soulless]

are you sure boy scouts is the right place for him? INTJs aren't supposed to like hierarchy and rigid order.

i personally hated boy scouts as a child, and i didn't get anything from the experience.

[randuincanus]

Boy scouts actually can be very balanced between authority structure and independence, and can be a good place for developing the (regrettably) necessary skills to function in a hierarchal system.

The strong leaders are worth sticking with, so I echo deinotes advice to practice dealing with the noise and bluster.

[Skank]

Practice with him , be loud and obnoxious and try to teach him that's it's nothing to be afraid of.

And the world wonders why we grow up avoiding people...

Maybe he isn't afraid of the yelling. Maybe he hates the way the man is acting and has to be PC (be respectful of adults) and the only acceptable behavior is crying.

I'm sure he'd like to tell the adult to turn it down a notch, grow up and stop being such an ass.

[jm123]

And the world wonders why we grow up avoiding people...

Maybe he isn't afraid of the yelling. Maybe he hates the way the man is acting and has to be PC (be respectful of adults) and the only acceptable behavior is crying.

I'm sure he'd like to tell the adult to turn it down a notch, grow up and stop being such an ass.

You missed the part where she said her husband did not see anything wrong with the instructors behavior. Her child probably needs to learn to deal with stressful authority figures. Authority and hierarchy orders are not something that INTJ's seem to like or respect unless they think the leaders are worthy, and it is natural that this would bother him if he was an INTJ. However, it is something he needs to learn to deal with, if he is to have an enjoyable social/work life; that is unless he owns his own business.

I have to agree, give him practice at dealing with this type of leadership. I personally would have loved having a parent that was this interested in my life; that I not only got to do boy-scouts, but that they cared I was upset about an obnoxious leader. Teach him your coping mechanisms, and strategies to deal with this type of behavior.

I know as a parent I always attempt to help my kids with perceived deficiencies. Such as not handling the joking that kids do. Or teaching them life is not fair. The sooner they learn this, the better their life will be.

[Skank]

"The guy still being loud jokingly bopped my son over the head with the handbook. This went on for several minutes until my son started crying...in class. At that point my husband stepped in and dealt with it. As a parting comment the drill seargent rambled something about this being only the 3rd boy he'd made cry."

Sorry, I just don't agree that this individual should be supervising 9 year olds with or without their parents present IMO

This is another classic "It really doesn't matter - They're just kids - and I'm just a volunteer" experience that most kids would be better off not having.

Life is not fair but I'd rather put my children in situations where they're respected and encouraged rather than just settling for being bopped on the head.

Was the comment about "this being only the 3rd boy he'd made cry" made where your son heard it? I bet the comment was made to your husband while your son stood at his side like he didn't even exist. Was that comment made to make the scout leader or your husband feel better? I'm sure it didn't do much to console your son.

If you feel that you want your son to experience scouting find him another pack or den to be part of - Just IMHO.

[LionsPride]

You missed the part where she said her husband did not see anything wrong with the instructors behavior. Her child probably needs to learn to deal with stressful authority figures. Authority and hierarchy orders are not something that INTJ's seem to like or respect unless they think the leaders are worthy, and it is natural that this would bother him if he was an INTJ. However, it is something he needs to learn to deal with, if he is to have an enjoyable social/work life; that is unless he owns his own business.

I completely agree with the above. I realize that moving the child to a place that will better suit they disposition seems like the easiest and best solution, but it would rob them of the chance to develop skills now that will help them deal with life. If it's not a scout master it will be a teacher or university professor, a supervisor... Two things he has at the age of 9 that he won't have post-adolescence is the dedicated support of his parents and the ability to cry/make mistakes.

As to dealing with it, that's a hard one and can be different with every student. What worked with me was my parents never let me quit or avoid the activity I was having problems with, but they would give me all the support I needed to complete it. That meant that if I came home in tears they were there to help me process what had happened, reassure me about my self-worth and bring back my confidence to face another day. If the scout master lacks the ability to praise your child, take responsibility to provide the praise needed to keep them encouraged. If your scout master can't teach, try teaching the lessons to your child outside of class so that he can use his confidence in a task to hold it together during the yelling. If the child is indeed an INTJ, you may need to explain the value in the scout master's technique to your child while showing understanding as to why he is feeling discomfort. Lastly, if the scout master turns out to be an ass/bully and there isn't a lot of value there, I don't know about your child, but I didn't have to respect my teachers to get through school. If the master isn't worth respecting, but he is worth 'overcoming as a challenge' then that might be enough to bring out the determination INTJ's can be known for.

I should mention that in much of my life my superiors always liked me. Learning to deal with a superior that didn't like me was rough. At the same age as your son, if I was expecting praise and found only criticism it would cause me to have much the same reaction - frustration followed by tears. In one case, age ten, I found that seeing my superior as an opponent rather than friend/mentor hardened me up a bit and my drive to succeed kicked into overdrive. So much so that I went from average student to honour student and made sure my grades kept improving every year after. The experience, as frustrating as it was at the time, was a watershed moment in my life and if my parents had transfered me to another teacher to 'save me' from the hardship, I would have lost a valuable experience.

[StreetScooby]

Yes I know he might change and he's too young to type (he just turned 9). I get that. At the moment he is an absolute clone of me so that's what I'm working with now.

My son recently started boy scouts. The leader is ex military. In trying to keep control over a bunch of 8-9 year old boys he is like a drill seargent (my son hates loud noises of any kind). My son was ok with that because he knew it wasn't aimed at him. But then it came time for him to test for his first badge. He knew the material but the drill seargent unnerved him with his larger than life presence. My son is a small, sensitive soul. So my son couldn't remember a word. The guy still being loud jokingly bopped my son over the head with the handbook. This went on for several minutes until my son started crying...in class. At that point my husband stepped in and dealt with it. As a parting comment the drill seargent rambled something about this being only the 3rd boy he'd made cry.

I wasn't there but heard it all when my son came home in tears.

My husband feels like this guy did nothing wrong and I believe him. I know the instructor. He's a great guy but he is in fact in your face loud.

How would you handle this?

Why do you see this as a problem? It simply part of life. Personally, I would have a private chat with the Scout Master on his technique.

[Tiberius Danger]

Yes I know he might change and he's too young to type (he just turned 9). I get that. At the moment he is an absolute clone of me so that's what I'm working with now.

My son recently started boy scouts. The leader is ex military. In trying to keep control over a bunch of 8-9 year old boys he is like a drill seargent (my son hates loud noises of any kind). My son was ok with that because he knew it wasn't aimed at him. But then it came time for him to test for his first badge. He knew the material but the drill seargent unnerved him with his larger than life presence. My son is a small, sensitive soul. So my son couldn't remember a word. The guy still being loud jokingly bopped my son over the head with the handbook. This went on for several minutes until my son started crying...in class. At that point my husband stepped in and dealt with it. As a parting comment the drill seargent rambled something about this being only the 3rd boy he'd made cry.

I wasn't there but heard it all when my son came home in tears.

My husband feels like this guy did nothing wrong and I believe him. I know the instructor. He's a great guy but he is in fact in your face loud.

How would you handle this?

He struck your son, that's ok with you because he's 'in your face loud'?

[WaeV]

I am and Eagle Scout and was the Senior Patrol Leader for a year and a half. I enjoyed boy scouts immensely. But then, I don't remember anyone bopping me over the head with the handbook.

When you say he was testing for his first badge, do you mean that he went for a board of review for his Scout/Tenderfoot rank or that he was being tested on a merit badge?

For a board of review one generally goes before a group of three or so adults affiliated with the troop and answers questions designed to test one's knowledge of scouting up to the level you are applying for. There are no other kids around and usually no parents.

Based on your description, however, he was in front of the 'class' of boys. This leads me to believe that the badge he was working on was a merit badge. Yet merit badge requirements are normally turned in rather than answered orally. If done in a group I can understand fulfilling some requirements with group discussion, but I don't see any reason for the leader to grill your son for several minutes.

Lastly, why was your husband there? Is he an assistant scoutmaster?

[karenann33]

are you sure boy scouts is the right place for him? INTJs aren't supposed to like hierarchy and rigid order.

He likes the part where he gets to play and hang out with other boys. The putting him on the spot to answer questions by a loud person and getting bopped over the head (jokingly) not so much.





karenann33 added to this post, 4 minutes and 31 seconds later...

Boy scouts actually can be very balanced between authority structure and independence, and can be a good place for developing the (regrettably) necessary skills to function in a hierarchal system.

The strong leaders are worth sticking with, so I echo deinotes advice to practice dealing with the noise and bluster.

I agree with this actually. It's how I've taught him to cope with many other of life's problems. I think my mistake was letting my dh handle it. He totally doesn't understand this. I need to go to these meetings to ensure that my son is ready to learn these skills and that he knows I will stand by his side in case things get too intense. Baby steps you know.





karenann33 added to this post, 7 minutes and 38 seconds later...

And the world wonders why we grow up avoiding people...

Maybe he isn't afraid of the yelling. Maybe he hates the way the man is acting and has to be PC (be respectful of adults) and the only acceptable behavior is crying.

I'm sure he'd like to tell the adult to turn it down a notch, grow up and stop being such an ass.

I know. I look at this as a numbers game. The majority of these boys NEED this kind of leader just to keep order. A sad state of our kids with their lack of home training but that is for another vent. My son however does not need nor deserve this type of treatment because he does do what he is told. At the moment he respects adults probably too much (he takes everything literal) so my job is to say yes but that doesn't excuse them from being unnecessarily mean to you. It's a tricky balancing act.





karenann33 added to this post, 11 minutes and 41 seconds later...

I have to agree, give him practice at dealing with this type of leadership. I personally would have loved having a parent that was this interested in my life; that I not only got to do boy-scouts, but that they cared I was upset about an obnoxious leader. Teach him your coping mechanisms, and strategies to deal with this type of behavior.

I know as a parent I always attempt to help my kids with perceived deficiencies. Such as not handling the joking that kids do. Or teaching them life is not fair. The sooner they learn this, the better their life will be.

This is my goal. In fact after this happened I told my son that I would attend the next meeting and if I couldn't we would come up with a hand signal to let dh know that things were not going well so he could be pulled out. Dh can't read his face like I can. I also noted that boy scouts was at this point in his life "optional" unlike school or a job where you can't easily run. He seemed happy that I understood him and that my goal was to help him. I even had him laughing by saying that jokingly that I was going to bring my own book and if this leader tried to hit him again I was going to hit him instead. LOL!!





karenann33 added to this post, 17 minutes and 4 seconds later...

This is another classic "It really doesn't matter - They're just kids - and I'm just a volunteer" experience that most kids would be better off not having.

Life is not fair but I'd rather put my children in situations where they're respected and encouraged rather than just settling for being bopped on the head.

Was the comment about "this being only the 3rd boy he'd made cry" made where your son heard it? I bet the comment was made to your husband while your son stood at his side like he didn't even exist. Was that comment made to make the scout leader or your husband feel better? I'm sure it didn't do much to console your son.

I agree which is why next time I will be there and will supervise. I did not appreciate my son being bopped on the head even as a joke. It was totally inappropriate. The comment was made I think to my son while my husband was standing there. Not sure the context as it was my son who told me the story. And no it certainly did NOT console my son. Only I was able to do that but he in fact an alien so that doesn't surprise me.

I should mention I suspect my son is on the autistic range (mild but still). Aspergers, sensory issues, something. He functions and is highly intelligent so I've not pursued treatement other than me teaching him how to cope. It's working as I've seen him grow a lot in the past 4 years. It's just a slow sometimes painful process for sure.





karenann33 added to this post, 20 minutes and 2 seconds later...

The experience, as frustrating as it was at the time, was a watershed moment in my life and if my parents had transfered me to another teacher to 'save me' from the hardship, I would have lost a valuable experience.

This is it in a nutshell. At this point at 9 I have the opportunity to stand WITH him, to protect him, to teach him, to help him cope whereas if I just move him or pull him out then we miss this teachable moment. Now if he's not ready and wants to quit then I will let him but so far thats not the issue. He likes scouts just not the way the questions were asked. Unfortunately this is his lot in life and as gently as possible he does need to learn how to deal.





karenann33 added to this post, 21 minutes and 21 seconds later...

Why do you see this as a problem? It simply part of life. Personally, I would have a private chat with the Scout Master on his technique.

Thats what dh wants to do. The guy really is ok. He's just loud. If he can't change maybe we can ask ds the questions with this guy just supervising until ds sees that it's ok.





karenann33 added to this post, 24 minutes and 15 seconds later...

He struck your son, that's ok with you because he's 'in your face loud'?

Absolutely NOT!! You'd have to know this guy to know he meant nothing bad and he didn't hit him hard it was kind of a pat like a piece of paper but to my son it was patronizing plus he's sensitive so to him it probably was awful. My son never said it hurt he just said he didn't like it.

[karenann33]

When you say he was testing for his first badge, do you mean that he went for a board of review for his Scout/Tenderfoot rank or that he was being tested on a merit badge?

Based on your description, however, he was in front of the 'class' of boys. This leads me to believe that the badge he was working on was a merit badge. Yet merit badge requirements are normally turned in rather than answered orally. If done in a group I can understand fulfilling some requirements with group discussion, but I don't see any reason for the leader to grill your son for several minutes.

Lastly, why was your husband there? Is he an assistant scoutmaster?

He's a bear so he had to recite the motto, do the handshake, whatever it's his first patch/badge no clue I was never a boy scout. It wasn't directly in front of the class the instructor pulled him to the side to do this while the other boys worked on knots.

I agree that there is no reason for my son to be grilled for several minutes. My suggestion is to let dh or I ask the questions and just let the instructor supervise to see that he has in fact met the requirements. I have no problem with that.

They say they need and will take all the volunteers they can get so they let parents stay. Most don't so this isn't an issue. Another tidbit is this instructor is a rookie cop who works with my dh (he's a lieutenant) so yes he does want him to be assistant scoutmaster. We are very involved with our kids so unless they want us gone or we aren't allowed to stay (like in my dd's girl scouts) we stay. The boy scouts are cool in that they have a monkey den for my daughters to go to if they want. They love it. Dh says its nothing like it was when he was a kid. Now it's more family friendly and all that wants to can stay and attend.

[realitycheque]

I was in BSA for 6 years and an Eagle, so I can speak from experience.

I started in one troop, stayed over a year. Transferred to another troop because the first Scoutmaster was not a good match (emphasized martial arts, didn't camp out much, had a son in jail, etc.). The second troop was so much better a situation, and through a supportive Scoutmaster, I (and friends who also transferred) rose through the ranks quickly (e.g., I earned 14 merit badges in one summer).

Your son's SM sounds over the top, maybe even not a good match. He should be embarrassed of making your son cry, not making excuses. Your husband was caught up in the macho bravado -- deep inside he too was hurt by the episode (pride), but won't admit it. It would be appropriate for him to talk with the SM about the circumstances, and how SM's behavior goes against a quarter of the Scout Law (the courteous, kind, cheerful elements). Drilling 15-17 year olds might be warranted, but not 9! Your son's traits of autism makes it even less appropriate.

How to prepare your kid for merit badges (or skill awards)? The Requirements are listed in the Handbook. Do some practice sessions so he is confident in meeting them. It gets easier. The process develops goal-setting which will serve him well in life. See so many posts here on 'lack of motivation'? A good Scouting experience will greatly reduce the chance of your son falling into that syndrome.


Edit after other members' posts: If it's cub scouts (makes sense given the age of 9), I cannot speak to that experience. Try to keep your son's interest in scouting up, so he can enjoy Boy Scouts, especially the outdoor activities.

[Seducer]

That sucks. That scout leader is a jerk.
What he did WAS WRONG.
I think your son should be with kind, nurturing people, not jerks.
If he is sensitive, WHY are you exposing him to insensitive, abusive jerks?
It's not going to do him any good.
It's only going to make him hate people.

[Bluesea]

Well I think your husband could have modelled something. If the scout master is frustrated with your boy and wants him to 'man up' and rise to the occasion and decides a good bop on the head should encourage this ... he has

a) not achieved it as the boy has been reduced to tears in-front of his male peers and if he is an INTJ this will be even more humiliating and punitive for him. Reminding him when he was nervous about the strengths he has exhibited during other exercises may have helped him find his core stability and regain his mind's capacity to find the answers.

b) has demonstrated that when you are in a power position and get frustrated with the people under you's ability to perform the job then it is ok to lash out physically at them. Not sure this is a natural part of life to be teaching and is necessarily to do with authority.

I think this is where power has not been wisely used and executed. The emotive aspect of the scout leader has taken over him in the moment and he has responded in a human way perhaps but not within the good boundaries of his leadership role. This is a situation that will happen in the young boys life as he grows older however it is not one to just accept. It is one where he can assert himself and say - it is not ok to hit me when I don't provide the answer you want. Are there not other ways of teaching me available? I think your husband could have modelled this in the moment so your son could better learn how to respond to these situations in the future and learn what power is and isn't about.

We need leaders in the future that are more capable of managing their limitations in the moment and scouts is supposed to have a value base to it as well isn't it?

[Nomadofthehills]

Another Eagle Scout here...

I would have a chat with the scoutmaster. If he is a good one, he will understand. Also, semantics, but your son is a cub scout, not a boy scout.

Boy Scouts is much different than cub scouts. Either way, I think it is a great experience for an INT_, it teaches great social and political skills, as well as pragmatism.

[WaeV]

He's a bear so he had to recite the motto, do the handshake, whatever it's his first patch/badge no clue I was never a boy scout. It wasn't directly in front of the class the instructor pulled him to the side to do this while the other boys worked on knots.

I agree that there is no reason for my son to be grilled for several minutes. My suggestion is to let dh or I ask the questions and just let the instructor supervise to see that he has in fact met the requirements. I have no problem with that.

They say they need and will take all the volunteers they can get so they let parents stay. Most don't so this isn't an issue. Another tidbit is this instructor is a rookie cop who works with my dh (he's a lieutenant) so yes he does want him to be assistant scoutmaster. We are very involved with our kids so unless they want us gone or we aren't allowed to stay (like in my dd's girl scouts) we stay. The boy scouts are cool in that they have a monkey den for my daughters to go to if they want. They love it. Dh says its nothing like it was when he was a kid. Now it's more family friendly and all that wants to can stay and attend.
Ah, he's in Cub Scouts. So you say he was pulled aside and tested on the requirements to advance from bear? In this case a "grilling" sounds perfectly acceptable. If your son had been doing pretty well and seemed as though he may pass, then it is also perfectly acceptable for this to take more than a few minutes. If your son didn't show signs of knowing enough material to pass, it isn't right to continue to put pressure on him. Determining if the scout knows enough to pass can be difficult, however, so I don't hold that against him too badly. Striking a scout would be out of line. It may have been in jest, but that really isn't appropriate.

Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts are quite different in important ways for important reasons. Cub Scouts is run in smaller groups separated by year and led by an adult. Boy Scouts is run as a larger group with the older boys leading the younger boys.

I'm not so sure about Cub Scouts, but in Boy Scouts I would consider it unacceptable for a scout to be tested by his parents, even if a scoutmaster observed. It's sort of a progression: Leadership from parents -> leadership from other adults -> leadership from boys -> leadership with / from peers -> leader.

[Amphorian]

Under no circumstances should a leader in such a position be allowed to "physically" harm your child. That was beyound called for and needs to be addressed ASAP. The man shouldn't just get a talking to, but should be reported.

The rights to give discipline actions involving physical means is granted only to the parents or guardians of the child and is quite limited. Or the parents may grant permission to caretakers (such as light taps on the buttox). Whacking a child upside the head repeatedly is abuse.

Add-on after further reading: Even if it was light with non heavy paper or in jest it is still inappropiate and should be reported. Why? The man can't control himself properly and could go further one day with someone else. Just because you trust him and he seems okay doesn't mean people don't have bad days and can snap severely or begin having personal problems that change their personalities/behavior.

[Evangelist]

Now, here is my advice from a teacher. No one in authority should ever put their hands, or book on a child. The boy scout leader stepped over a line that could carry some liability if it gets out of hand. I am in management in my school so I supervise under my principal. That could be grounds for termination if he has a history of being slightly abusive. If I were his boss, I would be looking at limiting his role with children or looking for someone else.

[brdmadgrl82]

This guy sounds nuts to me. I believe in boys learning to deal and handle problems at a young age but he really sounds nuts. I agree, I would not allow him to put his hands on the child...in the long run this might cause more damage and cause him to rebel against such a structured/militant system...Can you find another boys scouts? Did you even ask if it is something he wants to do and stick with? Let him make a choice...what interests him?

[Cicatrix]

Just out of interest, are you wanting your child to handle these type of situations or try and shelter him from them.

If your child hadnt been in tears would you be thinking about this situation differently?

[Godzilligan]

I'm sure being hit on the head was no joke to your son. This was a public shaming act on the leaders part.

This is not something that your son needs to learn to deal with, but to learn to not tolerate.

[Uytuun]

How would you handle this?

Don't send your INTJ child to boy scouts. There are lots of other things he can do that will challenge him, but not to a level that fully undermines him...cut him some slack, don't overdo the typical INTJ need for improvement, preparation and perfection at his expense.

If it's not a scout master it will be a teacher or university professor, a supervisor...

I don't know what your scouts leaders are like, but our teachers and professors can't be compared to them.

It has a similar vibe to the army in way...ESTP hazing techniques, proving how tough you are, grilling, intimidation, it's overwhelmingly ESP. At least here. So if it's the same...I just wonder what the likelihood is of him meeting this situation again in an organised way and to such an extent (unless he joins the army...)...also seeing as he won't naturally gravitate to it because of his nature. What's the use?

[Nomadofthehills]

There are plenty of children his age who would not have responded negatively to a playful bob on the head. Most in fact, would understand. This is not "laying a hand" on a child.

Obviously the scoutmaster needs to understand that some of his children have special needs, and he needs to be much more perceptive. Education is key here.

[WaeV]

Don't send your INTJ child to boy scouts. There are lots of other things he can do that will challenge him, but not to a level that fully undermines him...cut him some slack, don't overdo the typical INTJ need for improvement, preparation and perfection at his expense.

Agh, no! Why is everyone ripping this guy apart so badly, it's not like he molested the kid! And it's no reason to write scouts off as an activity unfit for INTJs. We aren't even sure if the kid is INTJ - he's 9! Just tell the scoutmaster that it was inappropriate and move on.

There are plenty of children his age who would not have responded negatively to a playful bob on the head. Most in fact, would understand. This is not "laying a hand" on a child.

Obviously the scoutmaster needs to understand that some of his children have special needs, and he needs to be much more perceptive. Education is key here.
I agree with this.

[Takeru]

And the world wonders why we grow up avoiding people...

Maybe he isn't afraid of the yelling. Maybe he hates the way the man is acting and has to be PC (be respectful of adults) and the only acceptable behavior is crying.

I'm sure he'd like to tell the adult to turn it down a notch, grow up and stop being such an ass.

I grew up in a family that frequently yelled. It was a form of just getting the other person near you though. None of it was to be an ass of any sort(unless someone in the family knew they were getting in trouble... but it is REALLY RARE.) I swear I heard a thousand more words from other people back then than I do these days. People wonder why I always yelled while in my house haha. It was just my upbringing, though it is quiet inside the house now.

OP... the best advise I can give is to start being loud slowly, I don't know if you really like a noisy house, but generally if you and your child are usually quiet, I really don't think a few shouts a day would kill your eardrums ^^. It'll teach him that being loud =/= trouble.

[LionsPride]

I don't know what your scouts leaders are like, but our teachers and professors can't be compared to them.

What, so every teacher and professor you ever had was custom designed to fit your needs? None of them made you frustrated? None of them felt more like your opponent than your friend? I'd say you were lucky. Most people encounter at least one teacher who seems adversarial to the way they like to learn. Sometimes it's only during the early phase when they are learning how to handle each other and other times it's oil and water. I had a teacher who usually picked one member of the class as the 'log' or the person that contributed nothing. I'm not saying it's right, but kids (and adults) will encounter difficult personalities in authority. Given that the parents of this child aren't bothered by the scoutmaster I'm not that concerned that he is doing anything harmful. Tapping a kid on the head with paper is a very patronizing act for a member in the authority, but not something that is so grossly awful that she should haul her son out of scouts. If he has to learn what it is to be patronized and overcome it, then a tap on the head is a lot better than some of the lessons I can think of.

[Uytuun]

What, so every teacher and professor you ever had was custom designed to fit your needs?

No. I got my share of incidents and teachers whose personalities clashed with mine. And despite having no scouts experience, I dealt fine with it. But none of them yelled at me for the sole purpose of drilling or intimidating/breaking me. Teachers are trained to deal with children. They are professionals.

You also act as if it can't be avoided to be stuck with a whack patronising authority figure. Standing up to them can sometimes be an option. Leaving is often an option. Talking to them is an option. If this kid is INTJ, he will likely deal with this situation so that he doesn't have to put up with the whack patronising figure forever.

A certain form of adaptability should be encouraged (yes, he will encounter people that are very different from him), but not a compulsive one, IMO.

[karenann33]

Just out of interest, are you wanting your child to handle these type of situations or try and shelter him from them.

If your child hadnt been in tears would you be thinking about this situation differently?

Both actually. I want him to learn to handle them as I'm well aware of what his future holds. Loud bosses, loud friends, bullies, the works. It will never end. However he has limits on what he can handle (so do I for that matter) so I will shelter him when I think he's had enough.

On the crying it's hard. My first response is sometimes to want to tell him to just deal with it already but I know thats not helpful so I don't. He's a very sweet, nice boy but he's got "bully me" stamped on his forehead. Just this past Saturday night my 11 year old niece was here. She had my son upset. She called him names like "freak, moron, baby, girl, etc." all because he's not all that assertive. She also bit him and hurt him. I didn't hear about any of it until after she left (I have a big house and my son said he didn't want to "bother me" while I was talking to my sister.) So now I have another issue to deal with. My sister is bi-polar and is a mess. It's complicated.

Parenting a sensitive, introverted, child is just tough.





karenann33 added to this post, 6 minutes and 35 seconds later...

No. I got my share of incidents and teachers whose personalities clashed with mine. And despite having no scouts experience, I dealt fine with it. But none of them yelled at me for the sole purpose of drilling or intimidating/breaking me. Teachers are trained to deal with children. They are professionals.

You also act as if it can't be avoided to be stuck with a whack patronising authority figure. Standing up to them can sometimes be an option. Leaving is often an option. Talking to them is an option. If this kid is INTJ, he will likely deal with this situation so that he doesn't have to put up with the whack patronising figure forever.

A certain form of adaptability should be encouraged (yes, he will encounter people that are very different from him), but not a compulsive one, IMO.

I wish I had been there. This weekend I went to a cookout where several moms who have boys in this pack were there. I mentioned what happened to them and they ALL knowingly nodded their heads like they knew exactly what this leader was like. They said I need to talk to the leader.

Wonder if this is a difference between dads and moms. Some dads think it's harmless teasing and moms think otherwise.

Got company coming today so no scouts and next week is fall break. Keep this up and it may be a while before we have to deal with this again.

[Cicatrix]

Both actually. I want him to learn to handle them as I'm well aware of what his future holds. Loud bosses, loud friends, bullies, the works. It will never end. However he has limits on what he can handle (so do I for that matter) so I will shelter him when I think he's had enough.

On the crying it's hard. My first response is sometimes to want to tell him to just deal with it already but I know thats not helpful so I don't.

Parenting a sensitive, introverted, child is just tough.



I'll preface this next comment by saying that as a young guy I could easily see myself in the same situation as your son. I was a very introspective and sensitive youngster and probably have some similar stories lurking back somewhere in my subcontious.

My dad was a bit of a tough guy, he was in the "just deal with it" camp with me. My mum was in the unconditional love and protective camp. I learnt good lessons from both. The ones from my dad were the hardest to take at the time but have probably been the most useful in dealing with things that I would have otherwise struggled with. You mention a few of those above but its goes further than that. My dad used to talk about "building character" which never really made any sense to me until I was old enough to understand what it was. Maybe times have changed and such things are considered a bit old fashioned now. While it might have a more contempory name, such things are still very valuable.

Anyway I dont have kids so i'm not going to pretend that im better qualified than you to offer advice. You are obviously a caring and loving parent and sound like you think through what is best for your son. When you deal with these type of issues you probably just need to seperate the situation from your sons reaction to the situation. Obviously you would deal with them differently and seperately.

[combustor]

What 9 year old is in Boy Scouts? You must be referring to something different. I was a boy scout and IIRC the minimum age is 10 or 11. I thoroughly enjoyed being a scout and learned a lot, so don't be too dismissive of the boy scouts and how it is somehow "incompatible" with INTJs.

[WaeV]

Nobody's reading through the entire thread. We've already clarified that he's actually in Cub Scouts, that the scoutmaster didn't physically harm the child, and that the kid wasn't being singled out or publicly humiliated. The scoutmaster took the cub scout to the side of the room in order to test him and only him for his next rank / badge.

[Tiberius Danger]

He didn't physically harm the child, but he did touch a child who wasn't his. Period. Maybe it's a product of sensationalist reporting of pedophilia/abuse and this child worship chip we seem to have on our shoulders now, but nobody who isn't me or someone I trust implicitly is touching my kids.

[Seducer]

If I were the father, I would have taken the book and thumped the scoutbastard on the head with it and laughed and ridiculed him for a while to find out how much he liked it. If it's OK to do to the boy, then it's OK to do it to him. I think this is a bad environment for the boy. I would either find or create a group just for nice, smart kids and they could do intellectual and cultural activities. I think smart kids get abused and brutalized when they have to mix with a large group of stupid kids and it does a lot of long lasting psychological damage.

Right now he's just a little kid, with a fragile sense of self, and he's very vulnerable to psychological damage. He needs to be protected and nurtured until he's older. And then he won't be so vulnerable. He can toughen up later. Right now he should be shielded from all the monsters, goons, and cretins out there so they won't damage him.

Also this kind of treatment is absolutely unacceptable from anyone. It's extremely disrespectful and humiliating.

If you accept this kind of treatment for your son, then you're teaching him that he is of little worth and you are damaging his self esteem. And if he has low self esteem, then he'll do poorly in life in general, because he won't believe that he's deserving of a good life.

[Tough Love]

are you sure boy scouts is the right place for him? INTJs aren't supposed to like hierarchy and rigid order.

i personally hated boy scouts as a child, and i didn't get anything from the experience.

Its not a straight rule for everyone you know. My husbandm (INTJ) was in the army for three years and loved it.





Tough Love added to this post, 24 minutes and 13 seconds later...

If he has to learn what it is to be patronized and overcome it, then a tap on the head is a lot better than some of the lessons I can think of.

True say. The world has gone to nuts (and for the most part rightly so) over issues such as abuse, and society is now constantly dancing on eggshells. On top of that, everything has become an oppurtunity to sue, so you have people who are making ruckus for financial gain rather than the actual belief that something troublesome is going on. Its a messed up situation.

[ReasoningMind]

I read the whole thread and I don't agree.

karenann33, your son seems a bit too sensitive, and outwardly sensitive for that matter, for dealing with the world. You need to teach him not to run to parents crying whenever he feels hurt. He should be able to deal with his problems and come up with solutions. This may sound harsh but is necessary. Because if and only if he solves his problems and deals with the world by himself will he gain a sufficient amount of self-esteem. It is ok to help him think about ways and compile a strategy to overcome it and implement the solutions, but it's not ok to solve his problems and deal with the world instead of him. Overprotective never works well, teach him to be an individual. If he is INTJ he is a strategist so trust his ability and motivate him to come up with his own solutions. Plus, do not treat every event as a huge, unacceptable crisis that needs a few adults to deal. Did your son tell the leader to stop? He could, and should have. I believe that would have worked as well. The more HE succeeds (not you as parents) the more successful, independent and self-assured he will be.

[karenann33]

I read the whole thread and I don't agree.

karenann33, your son seems a bit too sensitive, and outwardly sensitive for that matter, for dealing with the world. You need to teach him not to run to parents crying whenever he feels hurt. He should be able to deal with his problems and come up with solutions. This may sound harsh but is necessary. Because if and only if he solves his problems and deals with the world by himself will he gain a sufficient amount of self-esteem. It is ok to help him think about ways and compile a strategy to overcome it and implement the solutions, but it's not ok to solve his problems and deal with the world instead of him. Overprotective never works well, teach him to be an individual. If he is INTJ he is a strategist so trust his ability and motivate him to come up with his own solutions. Plus, do not treat every event as a huge, unacceptable crisis that needs a few adults to deal. Did your son tell the leader to stop? He could, and should have. I believe that would have worked as well. The more HE succeeds (not you as parents) the more successful, independent and self-assured he will be.


I'm not overprotective and he did not run to us asking us to solve this problem. He actually stood there and took it (teary eyed but still). He cried later but still didn't ask me to fix it. I'm the one who tried to help him sort out his feelings and to help him come up with solutions. It seems obvious to us that he should have told the leader to stop. However thats a tough lesson to teach. In this society he is taught to respect adults (my fault because I wanted a well behaved child). He's a black/white thinker so I have to teach him that "sometimes" its ok and necessary to tell an adult "no". It's like every chance I get to show him ME solving a problem by talking to someone in authority I point it out to him. I've even told him to stand up to me if I'm being unreasonable. He will do that now, a bit timidly but he's doing it.

[jimnorris]

karenann33, i would suggest you handle this way: (1) deal with the scoutmaster. let him know about the individual traits of your son. let him know that while you know he isn't a mean man you don't appreciate the way he treated your son and you do expect more from him. (2) this is an excellent moment of instruction for your son. explain to him that the scoutmaster wasn't trying to be mean or picking on him and that you have talked to the sm about the situation. however, this is a good time to let your son know that everybody won't treat him like mother treats him. the world outside can be very harsh at times and he is in training to be a man. and, dear Lord, don't take to mean that he ought to take abuse or that being a man means crudeness of manners or decorum. real men are tough not crude.

i hope i said this well enough. the sm needs to be gentler and your son needs to be a little tougher. i think that is why your husband waited until your son started crying before he stepped in. tough thing no matter how you look at it. hope this helps.

[ReasoningMind]

Maybe it's time he learned it's ALWAYS ok and necessary to tell adults or authority figures "no" whenever he thinks they are unreasonable. If he is wrong his point of view will be corrected so no big deal.

I don't think your solving problems will help him get the necessary skills, however attentive he watches. He needs his own problems to defeat. On his own.





And I'm afraid I will have to call the social services if you continue to refuse to do the best for him. :p

[Seducer]

I think the scout master IS a mean, abusive guy and a bully. Why deny it?

The point is, even if he "survives" being with jerks, he won't enjoy it and it's a detriment.
He needs to be around people that he actually likes.
The way for him to become well-socialized is to be with people he likes and can get along well with. He needs to be with people who are good to him.

[realitycheque]

I think the scout master IS a mean, abusive guy and a bully. Why deny it?

The point is, even if he "survives" being with jerks, he won't enjoy it and it's a detriment.
He needs to be around people that he actually likes.
The way for him to become well-socialized is to be with people he likes and can get along well with. He needs to be with people who are good to him.
Unfortunately, the down-side of this strategy will be the development of Avoidance as a coping mechanism. That is not a good option for autistic tendencies. If the son is a black-and-white thinker, that approach will only reinforce his inability to live in the real, "gray" world.

[Storm]

There's a perception in our society that bullying is something that needs to be handled by the bullier, and not the other way around. I didn't see this so I don't know if this man actually bullied your son - but "I've only ever made 3 children" cry isn't a good sign. Pressuring a child and then humiliating him is not a good teaching method. There is no reason to "get him use to" this kind of behavior.

I don't know if confronting the Scout Master about it would be a good idea, because he'll probably just see your child as a wimp or as "special."

It's also a bit silly to expect a 9 year child to stand up to an adult in this kind of situation. Sure, you can expect him to stand up to other children, which will help him when he's older and has to deal with bullies, but expecting him to stand up to an adult authority figure is a bit too much at this point. Think about being 9 yourself, you are really powerless. You can't assert yourself that easily because the adult has all the power and you have none.

I remember having loud and obnoxious coaches as a child - never cried or anything, but I did feel intensely uncomfortable the whole time and it didn't help me to "deal with" these kind of people today. I just retreated within myself and was miserable for a few hours. I learned how to deal with those kind of people as I got older. Ha, now I'm imagining saying something to a coach like "Making us run laps for being late when we have no real control over our parents timing is absurd." I guess I just learned how to suck it up when people are power hungry.

All these people suggesting he learn how to "deal with it," what exactly are you suggesting the son do? Talk back to him, stand there in sullen disregard while being humiliated?

Right now, I'd just leave him the program, this might be a one time thing, your son might be fine. But if he continues to not have a good time, perhaps you should place him in another group.

Also, curious, do other parents stay during the meeting or are you the only ones?

[kellyt]

The scoutmaster was demeaning. I would definately speak with him about his behavior. But, more importantly, what dose your son want to do? If he wants to be in scouts then I think acting the situation out (role playing) would be helpful. I did this a lot with my daughter whom I think is an INTJ, but she has ADHD and it helped her a lot with new situation, and group social skills. If he isn't interested I would not make him continue. I -introvert, and he probably isn't ready to begin balancing introvert with extrovert. I have found in my own life this takes a lot of energy, and mental focus. He may not be ready for yet.

[LionsPride]

I remember having loud and obnoxious coaches as a child - never cried or anything, but I did feel intensely uncomfortable the whole time and it didn't help me to "deal with" these kind of people today. I just retreated within myself and was miserable for a few hours.

See, that's the sort of thing that she needs to address as a parent by teaching how to deal with it rather than hoping her son stumbles through it. The experience's worth is only as good as the lesson that is learned. No lesson, no worth.

At the age of 9 is a great time to begin learning that every adult isn't going to be the pillar of virtue that children are led to believe up to that point. You mentioned that having to run laps was ridiculous when you can't make your parents on time. That sort of treatment made me very angry as a child and it led to a discussion with my parents about group punishment. I learned when it works and when it doesn't. I learned that it is unfair in many instances and my feelings about it were justified. My parents shared some stories of times when they were young and went through similar experiences and how it made them feel and why they didn't subscribe to that kind of discipline. I was unable to change the situation, but the next time it happened I didn't feel humiliated and it didn't impact my self worth. I no longer took it to heart or felt that if I did something different maybe I could get a different outcome. The problem wasn't with me. Without the experience and the following discussion from my parents I would not have gotten the whole lesson. This is why I advocated that the child continue the experience but that the mother and father be involved in the process of dealing with the experience.

If the scoutmaster's behaviour escalates or he begins to single out the son for harsher treatment then it might be time to move the child out. At the age of 9 he should be able to process the idea that adults might not be always right about what they do, but he might not be able to process why an adult is targeting him. I got that lesson in high school and I'm not sure I could have handled it earlier.

[ReasoningMind]

It's also a bit silly to expect a 9 year child to stand up to an adult in this kind of situation. Sure, you can expect him to stand up to other children, which will help him when he's older and has to deal with bullies, but expecting him to stand up to an adult authority figure is a bit too much at this point. Think about being 9 yourself, you are really powerless. You can't assert yourself that easily because the adult has all the power and you have none.


I find it extremely important that a kid is self-assured in a way that will always allow him to politely rebel, especially against an adult, and especially against an authority figure, whenever s/he perceives something wrong is going on.
Of course, to do this, he should perceive himself as equals with adults. He is not lacking anything but years and so-called "experience" which mean next to nothing most of the time, for most of the adults as well; so this is no reason to think of less for kids for that reason only, considering and keeping in mind, the potential that is there, that is. That potential made, and is still making in some parts of the world, 9 year old boys and girls to work for the living of their families should situation arise. Of course this is not the point, it's the arrow that points in the direction of the potential.
Is he fallible? Yes. Weak? Yes. Are adults so as well? Many, regardless of what can be seen from the outside. Is a kid powerless? No. S/he is equal. This is the point of view, in my humble opinion, that a kid better have: Adults are equals, they can be wrong, and may not know it, some are ok with being told they are wrong, some aren't. But their reaction has nothing to do with him/her.




I remember having loud and obnoxious coaches as a child - never cried or anything, but I did feel intensely uncomfortable the whole time and it didn't help me to "deal with" these kind of people today. I just retreated within myself and was miserable for a few hours. I learned how to deal with those kind of people as I got older. Ha, now I'm imagining saying something to a coach like "Making us run laps for being late when we have no real control over our parents timing is absurd." I guess I just learned how to suck it up when people are power hungry.

All these people suggesting he learn how to "deal with it," what exactly are you suggesting the son do? Talk back to him, stand there in sullen disregard while being humiliated?


Obviously it doesn't help in "dealing with" people when "sucking up" is what you practice. I assume you learned to deal with it growing up, because you had to start to practice "dealing with it" at some point.
Now let's imagine a 9 year old boy, who can respectfully tell the coach that "I'm not running. It's mom who was late, not me. This is unfair." This is only an example based on what you provided, not the whole case I admit. But I hope it illustrates my point.
Why would anyone suck up with unfair treatment, and bear with the consequences of others' behavior? Is it the kids' duty to bear with any adult or authority figure to the benefit of the authority only because of the authority and at the cost of himself?
Most times, if the adult is unaware of the effects of his behavior and cares about the kid, s/he will immediately back down recognizing he's gone too far (for the kid), and continue building from there. All reasonable adults would. The lost ones, as we are all made aware at some (or most, or all) points of our lives, cannot be made to see things, regardless of the brilliance of your reasoning or outstanding debating skills however hard you may try. And this also is expected and better be accepted. Of course one would prefer things were different, but they aren't. The problem at this point is what can be done about it?


I am suggesting:
1. The kid should practice voicing a simple "no" or "stop" whenever he perceives to be treated wrong. It is ok at this point if that happens in a timid way while eyes are watering and knees are shaking. Progress will come because potential is there. Just needs practice. He should know for sure he has the right to voice his opinions or wishes, however shallow/unrefined they may seem, and expect to be corrected or complied with, without feeling bad about it.
2. Family could help with reasoning and persuasion techniques, such as lightly debating with the kid and taking an obviously wrong point of view. Of course for the majority of parents it is an unbearable thought that their kid might in any way think of them anything less than omnipotent, perfect humans(I stress that I am in no way aiming to single out anyone). So I figure, unfortunately these helpful light debates would be avoided at all costs in many households.
3. Family might also help with the kid's perception of adults, who are, in reality, are not perfect, all-knowing or such, not even slightly superior to the kid in any way. No adult is. They are fallible, this is normal, even expected, and sometimes the situation can be corrected. This point of view had better start from home, i.e. ta-da! mom and dad aren't perfect, and that's normal, don't worry about it.

I am in no way claiming there should be no rules for kids to obey. Quite the opposite. I am saying a kid should be made wary about the rules that are in currency, and be made to think himself qualified to question, and disobey them should situation necessitate. This includes the house rules as well.
And again, I'm not saying a kid should be taught most adults are morons and they should be rebelled against at every opportunity. Quite the opposite. They are equals with faults like he is and will become, and that's perfectly acceptable.
Of course one also ought to teach a kid that the bar needs to be moving upwards all the time, nonstop. But I think there are other ways to do it, without the false pretensions or hollow expectations like "human beings can be perfect/infallible and deserve to be obeyed in any circumstance, even if they are wrong when they are adults or have some crap piece of authority". There is no reasoning like that.

Of course I might be failing miserably but I hope I made my point?

[Amphorian]

I'm not overprotective and he did not run to us asking us to solve this problem. He actually stood there and took it (teary eyed but still). He cried later but still didn't ask me to fix it. I'm the one who tried to help him sort out his feelings and to help him come up with solutions. It seems obvious to us that he should have told the leader to stop. However thats a tough lesson to teach. In this society he is taught to respect adults (my fault because I wanted a well behaved child). He's a black/white thinker so I have to teach him that "sometimes" its ok and necessary to tell an adult "no". It's like every chance I get to show him ME solving a problem by talking to someone in authority I point it out to him. I've even told him to stand up to me if I'm being unreasonable. He will do that now, a bit timidly but he's doing it.

It sounds like your son is more of a sensor (xSxx). Does he learn linear (step by step) the best? Just curious because sensors (especially ISTJs) respect authority/tradition and quite readily too. They're also notorious known for their black/white thinking.

See, my parents taught me the same thing. Respect authority, but I had no trouble at all standing up to it even as a young child (very young even) or learning not all adults are correct in their views. I was labelled a rebel (despite being a good child, getting good grades, etc.) simply because I stood up for myself. INTJs learn this lesson far easier then ISTJs.

[Seducer]

Unfortunately, the down-side of this strategy will be the development of Avoidance as a coping mechanism. That is not a good option for autistic tendencies. If the son is a black-and-white thinker, that approach will only reinforce his inability to live in the real, "gray" world.

No you don't understand what I was saying.

I was saying that if he has to spend time with many abusive, unpleasant people then THAT is what will cause him to dislike being with people and avoid ALL people, which will cause him to not develop social skills.

But if he has the opportunity to spend time with people who treat him well, then he can learn to enjoy people and become well socialized. THE IMPORTANT thing is for him to become socialized. And that can best be achieved by him being around people who he can relate to and who will treat him well.

As an adult, I doubt that you spend your time with people who abuse you. I think everyone should avoid abusive people, while they associate with people who are kind and supportive.

[ReasoningMind]

It sounds like your son is more of a sensor (xSxx). Does he learn linear (step by step) the best? Just curious because sensors (especially ISTJs) respect authority/tradition and quite readily too. They're also notorious known for their black/white thinking.

See, my parents taught me the same thing. Respect authority, but I had no trouble at all standing up to it even as a young child (very young even) or learning not all adults are correct in their views. I was labelled a rebel (despite being a good child, getting good grades, etc.) simply because I stood up for myself. INTJs learn this lesson far easier then ISTJs.

Yes, really, good points and strong probability. In which case maybe my points are useless.
Detecting the way he learns might be a bit difficult though, because he might not be aware.

So perhaps let's think about these:
- Did he ever question/disobey anyone (especially authority figures) or did something "he shouldn't have done", with or without realizing it?
- Did he ever question the motives/reasoning of any parent or some adult, with or without realizing he is being "disrespectful", maybe by way of asking innocent questions like "why"?
- Did he ever insist on continuing to do something which is not approved, or wanted to do things in his way, with or without being able to explain the reasoning behind it?
- How did you as parents respond to such behavior? And what happened?
- Any slight chance you might be an S? I'm asking because you mention your son is similar to you and you wanted a "well behaved" kid. Why did you want that?

Or maybe you're N, but somehow got into thinking being a "good parent" requires such and such (which would resemble an ISFJ in her prime) and trying to behave like that? Which also might be the reason you are having trouble with it? (I know I'm taking liberties here maybe.)

In my experience growing up, it was always my ISFJ mom who demanded I behaved well whereas dad wouldn't care, even enjoyed it and called me "tough gal" when I unintentionally didn't. And it would be my mom who would jump in and fight relentlessly, trying to "save me" from any trouble. That's why I was very secretive about my "problems" and hid them carefully from mom, because I didn't want to be saved, I wanted to be independent.

[Bluesea]

At some level as adults this is the kind of thing that can be running through our minds with respect to children ... especially if they are our own:

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[ReasoningMind]

At some level as adults this is the kind of thing that can be running through our minds with respect to children ... especially if they are our own:

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I completely get, and agree with, the point.

However, I disagree with the "level" (noise, test, joking by a friendly adult) and the "focus" (helping the kid become stronger via calculated experience vs. blaming, or dealing with, the world instead of him).
Because I think the depicted level of "danger" present in this event does not even come close to the picture you posted and does not necessitate parent intervention in such a grand degree.

One can feel strongly about something and might tend to see things bigger than they are. My heart goes to the kid as well, even when he is not mine. But it is especially important in these cases to choose the effective route in the long run, since this is a huge responsibility and the selection of strategy might have great bearing upon the success.

[Bluesea]

Because I think the depicted level of "danger" present in this event does not even come close to the picture you posted and does not necessitate parent intervention in such a grand degree.

The picture was graphic, apologise for those it disturbs, and was more symbolic than literal. I do think the parent should have intervened in this instance, instead of appearing to side with the adult by remaining silent with respect to what was happening for his son at the time. He could have taught the boy a powerful lesson about standing up to bullies / dealing with public humiliation attempts, built his resilience for the future, which would have been in accordance perhaps with his parent's initial perceptions of what cubs could offer him. I also think by not intervening he has risked the boy learning that even his father can't stand up to such people, or that if this sort of thing happens to others that could be defended at the time by him he is better to say nothing or stick with the bully. It could still be processed with the child where the father and mum go to him and say ' we've been thinking about what happened to you at cubs and wanted to know how you felt at the time and what lesson you learnt from this" and check out what he's taken from it. And if this is a lesson they feel is more harmful than helpful there is a chance to say, actually we think we should have done something different at the time and will go back with you to the cub master and let him know what we would expect of him next time instead. Or something like this. I think the OPs has put this discussion topic up because of the message in the picture, she felt at some level that she wanted to protect her son from a potentially harmful experience.

[WaeV]

I do think the parent should have intervened in this instance, instead of appearing to side with the adult by remaining silent with respect to what was happening for his son at the time.
"This went on for several minutes until my son started crying...in class. At that point my husband stepped in and dealt with it."
Ergo
"My husband stepped in when my son started crying."

The depicted level of "danger" present in this event does not even come close to the picture you posted and does not necessitate parent intervention in such a grand degree.
I agree. People seem to draw conclusions from others' conclusions. It's like a game of telephone - the end result is nothing like what the chain started with.

[Bluesea]

OP did not say exactly how her partner dealt with it but the post also suggests the way it was handled was insufficient and needs further attention ... there is also the issue of prevention being better than cure ... could he have stepped in before the boy was so distressed he was crying?



karenanne33 posted:

At that point my husband stepped in and dealt with it. As a parting comment the drill seargent rambled something about this being only the 3rd boy he'd made cry.

My husband feels like this guy did nothing wrong.

I think my mistake was letting my dh handle it. He totally doesn't understand this. I need to go to these meetings to ensure that my son is ready to learn these skills and that he knows I will stand by his side in case things get too intense.

Originally Posted by StreetScooby
Why do you see this as a problem? It simply part of life. Personally, I would have a private chat with the Scout Master on his technique.

Thats what dh wants to do.



I agree. People seem to draw conclusions from others' conclusions. It's like a game of telephone - the end result is nothing like what the chain started with.

Interesting, I think people have minds of their own and have genuinely enjoyed the diversity of responses to issues on this forum rather than a tendency towards a conformity.

[Paul Siraisi]

If someone bopped me on the head while I was blanking out trying to remember something I had to recite in public, I would probably explode in anger.

Or at age 9 be crying with humiliation and rage. That f*ing asshole. How dare he touch me. Like that. In public.

Would anyone not feel that way?

If he's an INTJ, and you're one too, then I can't imagine why you think putting him in the boy scouts would make him happy--not that he would know it himself until he tried it.

The first thing I'd do is ask him if he still wants to do this. I'm not saying the answer would or should be no, but getting on top of the issue means first questioning the whole premise.

[karenann33]

You mentioned that having to run laps was ridiculous when you can't make your parents on time. That sort of treatment made me very angry as a child and it led to a discussion with my parents about group punishment.

If the scoutmaster's behaviour escalates or he begins to single out the son for harsher treatment then it might be time to move the child out. At the age of 9 he should be able to process the idea that adults might not be always right about what they do, but he might not be able to process why an adult is targeting him. I got that lesson in high school and I'm not sure I could have handled it earlier.

OMG this is so true. I can't tell you how many times I've had to gently have this conversation with my son. You know the part about how the whole class was punished for misbehaving when he himself didn't do anything wrong. Or the part where the kid gets punished for something that is the parent's responsibility (like signing the binder or getting them to activities on time - like they can drive). I personally think being a kid sucks because they are at the whim of their parents and others adults in their life.





karenann33 added to this post, 11 minutes and 15 seconds later...

Right now, I'd just leave him the program, this might be a one time thing, your son might be fine. But if he continues to not have a good time, perhaps you should place him in another group.

Also, curious, do other parents stay during the meeting or are you the only ones?

I was like you as a child. I learned to retreat within myself to cope (my parents were in the suck it up and deal with it variety). As I got older I came up with my own strategies and one of which is still to this day is mostly avoidance. Ok so I might have to work with a total jerk that was loud but I'd make sure my contact with that person was minimal. I'd change jobs before working directly with such a person. I like quiet and peace whats so wrong with that?

On your question most parents drop and run. It's an hour of freedom and they take full advantage of it. Dh and I are not most parents. We leave that decision up to our kids. If they want us to stay we stay. If they wanted us to drop them at the corner out of shame of being seen with us well I will be ok with that too.





karenann33 added to this post, 18 minutes and 29 seconds later...

No you don't understand what I was saying.

I was saying that if he has to spend time with many abusive, unpleasant people then THAT is what will cause him to dislike being with people and avoid ALL people, which will cause him to not develop social skills.

But if he has the opportunity to spend time with people who treat him well, then he can learn to enjoy people and become well socialized. THE IMPORTANT thing is for him to become socialized. And that can best be achieved by him being around people who he can relate to and who will treat him well.

As an adult, I doubt that you spend your time with people who abuse you. I think everyone should avoid abusive people, while they associate with people who are kind and supportive.

Well said and thank you. This is exactly what happened to me. Since my parents just said "deal with it" and discounted my feelings I missed being properly socialized and began to avoid people. All people. To this day I don't trust my own ability to determine who is nice, who is mean and who has hidden agenda's. I've learned with age to make friends cautiously and to avoid people who are abusive. If someone whacked me on the head like that even in jest I'd not want to be with them either. It's rediculous.





karenann33 added to this post, 22 minutes and 2 seconds later...

OP did not say exactly how her partner dealt with it but the post also suggests the way it was handled was insufficient and needs further attention ... there is also the issue of prevention being better than cure ... could he have stepped in before the boy was so distressed he was crying?

My dh didn't know anything was wrong until my son started crying. Even now he still kinda shakes his head like "it wasn't that bad". We've since decided (my son agrees) that either I need to be there or ds needs to have a hand signal to let dh know when he's feeling uncomfortable. My dh is more laid back and has a thicker skin (remember he's a police officer) so it's obvious he struggles to see the world through the eyes of a sensitive 9 year old boy.





karenann33 added to this post, 25 minutes and 4 seconds later...

If someone bopped me on the head while I was blanking out trying to remember something I had to recite in public, I would probably explode in anger.

Or at age 9 be crying with humiliation and rage. That f*ing asshole. How dare he touch me. Like that. In public.

Would anyone not feel that way?

If he's an INTJ, and you're one too, then I can't imagine why you think putting him in the boy scouts would make him happy--not that he would know it himself until he tried it.

The first thing I'd do is ask him if he still wants to do this. I'm not saying the answer would or should be no, but getting on top of the issue means first questioning the whole premise.

Amen.

[unnamedfeeling]

Yes I know he might change and he's too young to type (he just turned 9). I get that. At the moment he is an absolute clone of me so that's what I'm working with now.

My son recently started boy scouts. The leader is ex military. In trying to keep control over a bunch of 8-9 year old boys he is like a drill seargent (my son hates loud noises of any kind). My son was ok with that because he knew it wasn't aimed at him. But then it came time for him to test for his first badge. He knew the material but the drill seargent unnerved him with his larger than life presence. My son is a small, sensitive soul. So my son couldn't remember a word. The guy still being loud jokingly bopped my son over the head with the handbook. This went on for several minutes until my son started crying...in class. At that point my husband stepped in and dealt with it. As a parting comment the drill seargent rambled something about this being only the 3rd boy he'd made cry.

I wasn't there but heard it all when my son came home in tears.

My husband feels like this guy did nothing wrong and I believe him. I know the instructor. He's a great guy but he is in fact in your face loud.

How would you handle this?

1st - the MBTI test is not accurate on non-adults.

2nd - that drill sergeant should know that in today's world, putting your hands on someone like that is a really stupid idea. Especially when you're talking about a minor.

3rd - I was typing at age 5. Why isn't your son able to type?

[WaeV]

Don't 1 and 3 conflict?

[Lucky]

I was like you as a child. I learned to retreat within myself to cope (my parents were in the suck it up and deal with it variety). As I got older I came up with my own strategies and one of which is still to this day is mostly avoidance. Ok so I might have to work with a total jerk that was loud but I'd make sure my contact with that person was minimal. I'd change jobs before working directly with such a person. I like quiet and peace whats so wrong with that?


Same here! I would have considered and still consider what the boy scout leader did abusive.

[clementine]

This really isn't as big a deal as some of you are making it.

I was almost exactly like the boy described as a child, except I was female. I was extremely sensitive, borderline Asperger's, hated loud obnoxious people, the works. I cried easily over most anything. I also would have cried had the same incident described happened to me, but not because I was traumatized or anything; it would have been because I was angry at this loud idiot over whom I had no control.

Here's why it's not a big deal:

1) It's not like the guy punched the kid in the face for Heaven's sakes. Haven't any of you ever been rapped playfully on the head with a magazine? It's annoying, certainly, but in no way is it abusive or dangerous to the child.

2) I don't know the boy, but since I myself was the spitting image of the boy's description, I can tell you that I had lots of obnoxious people anger me to the point of tears as a child, and no lasting damage has been done.

3) Kids cry all the time. It's what they do. Unless something serious is happening, or unless the kid clearly has psychological issues, it's not an issue that needs to be fixed. They grow out of it.

3) My parents were very "hands off" shall we say. When I had a crying fit, or was afraid of someone, refused to go to school, etc. they simply ignored it. As a result, I toughened up much more quickly than I would have had they intervened and protected me from issues and people that I erroneously perceived as threats. Unless the child is actually in danger (i.e. the scout master is a sick molester, sociopath, violent paranoid schizophrenic etc.) it's best that he learns to deal with loud in-your-face people, because the world is full of them.

Basically, I feel bad for the kid, because, like me, he has trouble dealing with annoying, belligerant people. But as I aged, I learned to cope with them, and my guess is, he will as well. I also grew out of the crying and hyper-sensitivity. He probably will too.

[Bluesea]

well, if the mum and dad are ok with it, I guess it is ok that it happened the way it did.

From my perspective, in principle, I think adults, particularly when in positions of responsibility for the welfare of children, need to manage themselves and make choices that are opportunities for children to learn positive and constructive lessons not destructive harmful ones (no matter how mild). In saying that of course no one is perfect and people have off days and different children respond differently to the same teacher.

Resilience is a good lesson and being made aware that there are people who behave / react in surprising and negative ways at times, that can be unpleasant to receive, is a good thing for the child to understand and decide how they are going to handle these situations in life. Every experience is a teacher.

I do stay with my opinion that the Scout master could have had more constructive ways of handling the situation and if it were my child I would want to make sure they learnt something useful from it for their life. Reflection from all parties, to get to this point, could maximise everyone's gain from the situation?