INTJ Women [Archive]

HmjG

09-28-2009, 12:34 AM

I have difficulty relating and being friends with other women because I find most of their conversation to be frivolous and pointless.

I too can find some women's conversation frivolous and pointless. But, I've also found this true of men. Because I am in law enforcement, ninety percent of the people I work and spend time with are of the male variety, and let me tell you that their conversations can be completely pointless and immersed with a profound amount of testosterone driven bullsh*t. Women will talk makeup, men will talk football. Women will talk babies, men will talk porn. Small talk definitely doesn't discriminate by gender. As a result, I just find myself ignoring such conversation and walking away to find something less boring to do. If this means I got to play by myself, oh well.

People have thought I'm a lesbian many times throughout my life(I'm not). I just don't feel the need for male attention in order to feel secure about myself. I also am hardly impressed with anyone to the extent that I feel the need to pursue a relationship with them. Why waste my time?

While I've never had people imply to my face I was a lesbian, I have had them outright say I was a prudish, cold b*tch. I feel, like you, that this is probably due to how disinclined I am to seek out male attention to prop up my self esteem.

And yes, I have thought many times how much easier it'd be to be a man. It just seems so much simpler. Like men have a brotherhood. I find relationships with women rather difficult with the emotionality and the competition between them.)

I've never wanted to be a man, despite how inclined I am to pursue male dominated fields (military, weapons training, mixed martial arts, etc). Though men do have a brotherhood (particularly in the aforementioned fields), their relationships aren't without a fair share of backstabbing, gossiping, competition, and emotionality. I've witnessed it. Men can be incredibly emotional, but rather than crying, they get physical and bloody a lip. They are also incredibly competitive with each other.

I'm heterosexual so I can't really be friends with men (it would turn into something else and they find me physically attractive[toot, toot]) and I don't really relate to other women that well, so the result is that most of the time I'm in No Man's Land. I've often wished I could be friends with men, but the confines of my sex does not allow this (sigh)...

As I am also heterosexual, I find it difficult to be close friends with men. You can be partners and teammates, but rarely close friends (and then only with the married or taken ones that are very faithful to their significant other). My best friends are all women. They are the only ones with which I can open up and have intimate conversation. The single men view such conversations as a come on, and I try to avoid such intimacy with the married and taken men out of respect for their significant other. I usually just wait and find a woman that I relate well to that isn't inclined towards small talk and is secure enough in herself to not view me as "competition", as you aptly put it (i.e. I wait for quality).

liquidzilla

09-28-2009, 01:34 AM

I understand this. I've been called a lesbian, I don't get on well with women (most of my main friends are men), small talk, especially with women, is tough and boring.
The lesbian thing I turned into a joke so it's never used seriously anymore (just go along with it in a jokey way then people don't use it in a cruel way). I put up with other women and try my best to talk with them, but I find the only way to make it interesting is to change the subject to something I like. Sadly, it's true that my male friends have at one time or another tried to go out with me, best thing to do is let them know you aren't into relationships if you don't want one early on (one of them was especially persistent though, which was a pain).
I am heterosexual (I'm very sure), and have had relationships before, but I too don't really understand the appeal of trying to get the attention of men and the rituals of relationships bother me (they don't consider that the woman might like time alone or have work she wants to do).

karenann33

09-28-2009, 07:07 AM

I've been told I'm cold, intimidating, unapproachable and I'm sure a whole set of other horrible words by other women. This told to me after they got to know me and found out that it was all wrong. I'm actually quite nice and funny once you get to know me.

I've never been accused of being a lesbian because I've always been in some kind of relationship with men and now of course I'm married.

For me it's been easier to make girl friends since I had kids because now I have something to talk about. Talking about what brand of purse or shoes you got makes me cringe. LOL!!

Archaic Smile

09-28-2009, 09:03 AM

Yep. I've been slapped with many of the same labels, too. And over the years I've known only a handful of women who actually got me and didn't puzzle over why I wasn't a little more open and emotional and less cautious and blunt.

jimnorris

09-28-2009, 09:22 AM

I must confess, mirrormirror, that I have not known any INTJ women. The closest is one of my sisters who is an INFP. I can see, however, why a lot of men and women might be put off a little. If you are like me you probably tend to overwhelm them a little with your intensity. I've had plenty of people think I was perpetually mad when I'm really just intense. As to friends, most of mine are women which actually helps me to stay connected with my emotions as I don't tend to show much at all in that area. I don't let anyone define my relationships but me and my friends. If people have a problem with me having mostly female best friends then tough, they'll get over it. And I don't cross any boundaries. I would never dishonor my female friends by such stupidity. Leave that to another personality type:D There are men who can honor and value your female-ness with all integrity and faith. Sorry to be so chatty....saying good bye now:)

Indubitably

09-28-2009, 09:36 AM

Who says it has to turn into something else? I maintain very close platonic relationships with many women who find me attractive, and quite a few of them I find attractive myself. There really isn't any trick to it, you just have to make sure that everyone is honest about it; you have to both be able to say, "yeah, sure, I'm human, I have those kind of feelings towards you from time to time, but that isn't the kind of relationship I want with you right now", and let it go. If you aren't honest with yourself, or with your friend, then yes, it can become an issue, but discarding a possible friendship just because there is some unwritten rule that it will get screwed up, is foolish at best. Not to mention that you can't make an omlet without breaking some eggs, some times things will eventually go bad, it happens, but you can't let it keep you from trying. Nothing is permanent, nothing is guaranteed but the fact that the whole damn universe is decaying towards greater entropy, if you live your life avoiding the things that will fall apart, you will miss life altogether.

karenann33

09-28-2009, 09:49 AM

I've had plenty of people think I was perpetually mad when I'm really just intense.

I hate this label. I get it even from my kids. Why does everybody think I'm mad when I'm not? It's kind of annoying. Just because I'm quiet without a smile plastered on my face does not mean I'm mad.

vern

09-28-2009, 10:01 AM

First, no one, to my knowledge, has believed I am a lesbian.

Second, I really like people and when I am not zoned out in my head, talk to the easily.

Third, I get along wonderfully with men.

My dearest friends are men, and although I do not have many close friends, the few I have are the best and I have had long term relationships with them, twenty years at least. They are my brothers, and they treat me with the same respect and consideration they do to each other.

Were they, or are they attracted to me? Yes, likely but nonetheless we enjoy our friendships and respect each other enough not to press that. I have been through thick and thin with them, I trust them explicitly and they feel the same for me.

I spoke to one of them on the phone last week, he told me at least three times how much he loved me in front of his wife and then I spoke to her...its all good! You have to wade through lots of people to meet the ones who you are supposed to be with.

You have to use your intj confidence, it attracts people, and have a positive attitude. I can handle group situation's but they are draining, one on one I am the best, you can learn a lot about someone on a walk and even if their, (the men's) intention's are motivated by their sexual side, you can easily turn that another direction...many if not most men are decent and to connect you have to look past all the stereotypes and find the human inside. People are many things but they are far from boring...

RedIrish

09-28-2009, 12:05 PM

I have more men friends that women. It's not necessarily that their conversational topics bore me, as I think I bore them. I have a hard time finding common ground.

It does hurt however when one you thought was a friend tells you to your face that she thinks you are arrogant, cold, and uncaring.

... come to think of it, perhaps I'll go hang out and watch football and drink beer, at least I know where I stand...

hutbug

09-28-2009, 12:15 PM

I liked HmjG's post a lot, I've always suspected that men's talk is just as superficial and women's. Of course, superficial is a perception - I really enjoy talking about anything from astronomy to my favorite TV shows, so I have no business labeling anyone else's areas of interest!
I have a problem with the amount of emotional energy required to be a part of a group of women. I seem to tire easily in groups of people, but especially women because they seem more intensely tuned into each other than men. There is definitely a 'girl code' of some sort, and somehow I don't quite measure up. So I never really feel 'good enough'. I'm in the quandary of wanting to be liked and accepted, but not wanting to put out the effort required. It seems like what I would have to do is smile incessantly and memorize every factoid about every one of their lives and hug and gush a lot. It tires me out just thinking about it!!

Musing

09-28-2009, 10:30 PM

I too don't think I've ever been called a lesbian but yes to the cold, uncaring, bitch, mean, intimidating, intense, blah, blah, blah. Unless, of course, I can do something they need. Then at least the gossip doesn't get back to me right away. This is worse with women but doesn't exclude men. Especially men who can't get me fawning over them with pathetic attempts.

I can mimic pretty damn well so if I really need to get something done, I'll play the stupid game for as long as I need to.

I just spent a day with another INTJ female and that was such a nice change of pace. Will be doing that more often.

Brittle

09-29-2009, 04:22 AM

This is what I love (and miss) so much about this forum - there are so many rich and diverse topics of conversation which I just couldn't talk to most other people about. It seems if it's not celebrities, babies, or sport, most people just aren't that interested.

So as an INTJ chick, yes, it's been difficult to connect with other women in general - something I was only just talking to my SO about the other day. Having been in my "new" town for 2 years now, I can't say I've really made any real friends. Most of the women I've met my age are all having babies or have young children and it seems to consume them. It's also something I really struggle with - I'm really not into kids!

In general, I've always connected much better with men (although I certainly agree with HmjG's comments about the lack of depth to some of their conversations too... I remember being at a BBQ where I had to leave the group of women who were all talking about childbirth and placentas and things that I really didn't need to hear about - so I headed over to chat with the guys, thinking it couldn't get worse, and turns out they were all engaged in coversations about pretty much the same part of a woman's anatomy, only this involved things going in, rather than coming out..!!! Needless to say I gave up and went home!). Anyhoo, I think being able to hit it off with the guys has always caused a bit of jealousy with the other women, which hasn't helped.

As far as the lesbian thing, well I had one stalking me for a couple of years - does that count? Funny thing is, while half the stories painted me a lesbian, the other half painted me as a rampant slut!! For someone who really doesn't connect with a lot of people, seems I don't do so bad after all :)

And if I had a dollar for everytime I was called a snob, I'd be wearing some spanky new shoes (yes! I love shoes... to wear, not as a topic of conversation!). Apparently numerous people have passed me in the street and said "HI" but I've been so immersed in my own thoughts that I've simply not noticed them.

I guess I'm lucky I have a handful of people who truly do understand me and also enjoy in-depth conversations about obscure topics. They really do help keep me sane!

elsdfr

09-29-2009, 04:32 AM

I may or may not know someone who might have been watching... Americas Next Top Model, this person happens to think the girl with lots of curly read hair may be... an INTJ female, her name is Nicole. Apparently this can be guessed from the first episode.

Tough Love

09-29-2009, 05:29 AM

Its so weird reading these posts. I am so sexist against my own sex. I know its irrational and stupid, but i cant help but remember the hurt and pain of growing up and feeling like im nothing because of the way other girls made me feel. I went to an all girl school and due to my serious nature and good marks, i feel i was very misunderstood. There were incidences as a child, such as where the whole class was invited to a birthday party, and i was told in no uncertain terms that i wasnt wanted there, or the time my sunday school class bought me a ''present'' ( a tampon in wrapping paper, i was about 8). Both times i broke down in tears and started yelling 'I hate you, i hate you'.
I swear i wouldve taken a thousand beatings over the bitchy bullying of girls.
These experiences i believe ruined my trust and 'sisterhood' with women. I find i can relate to men alot better than women. That doesnt mean i can relate to a man, as a man, but i find they are alot more upfront and honest about what their feelings towards you are.

Ceres

09-29-2009, 05:45 AM

I find it boring sitting in a group of women who are talking about shopping and boys.
I rarely engage in these conversations, simply sitting on the sidelines thinking about topics that interest me. I can see how people would perceive me as being a snob in these situations, as I generally give blunt, emotionless answers to any questions about these superficial topics.

On topics that interest me I actually become quite extroverted. I really enjoy talking to people about my favourite tv shows, my family, and my studies. But I rarely get to this point with females, and when I achieve it with males they assume that I am interested in dating them.

vern

09-29-2009, 05:56 AM

There seems to be, for the most part, a consensus as to how we are and how we interact or more appropriately do not interact with the rest of the population. So are we misogynists? Although we cannot be by definition but honestly I believe that I am at times, when I meet a man who is I understand them a lot better than I understand most women. Even though I know it is not right that is how I feel during and after interactions with women, sometimes, with the rare few it is all I can do not to punch them in the mouth to stop their bitchy, game playing, yapping crap.

Maybe I should go start one of those internet dating profiles, heterosexual....no wait they probably don't use that word, female straight, misogynist, alpha male, sarcastic and cold ready to rock your world baby, between projects and books that is. Do you think I would get any interest, hope not, I can't stand dating!

schwartzie

09-29-2009, 06:13 AM

It gets better in grad school and otj in a white collar job. Grown up women do not sit around talking about shopping. We talk about the design elements of the shopping center we are building. Or in which court we will file the lawsuit against the architect. Or where to take the IPO to. All in all, it gets lots better; you will be surrounded by women more like yourself, and the only hard part is to find one another, stop competing and build cooperative, trusting relationships despite a competitive environment.

haha Vern is funny... (*pats bench next to her -- come sit by me*)

There have been lots of threads on how to find compatible sexual partners. I wonder where intj women go to find friends. Personally, my closest women friends over time have all been bright xNxxs. (same typology as male friends/lovers...)

surely its not at the shoe shops... :p

Tough Love

09-29-2009, 06:17 AM

On topics that interest me I actually become quite extroverted. I really enjoy talking to people about my favourite tv shows, my family, and my studies. But I rarely get to this point with females, and when I achieve it with males they assume that I am interested in dating them.

Thats the problem, it isnt that women dont have these conversations, just that there is so much bullshit to sift through before.

Zhen

09-29-2009, 06:27 AM

lol, my Life issue to a T...and let me tell you I have REALLY TRIED to study, understand and relate to women...

apart from the lack of common interests and behaviours we INTJ females have with the average woman, I noticed most women typically tend to not like confident females...at the end of the day I think it's only those(most) that lack self esteem who have a problem with us. I found certain types of women are much easier than others but by and large men have always been much more natural and so much less of an EFFORT for me personally, but then again I would also describe myself as very much a tomboy my whole life. Men definitely make better friends esp for loyalty and lack of bitchy element...until you get to a certain age and then it starts to get complicated :P I totally understand when you say "NO MAN'S LAND" :P oh well at least that makes a few of us...we should start a club ;)

I've read a post in the archives entitled "INTJ Females" and would like to start a new thread around the same topic.

I wanted to know if anyone has had a similar experience living as an INTJ woman. I have difficulty relating and being friends with other women because I find most of their conversation to be frivolous and pointless. I don't really like to make conversation unless there's a reason. I've also found that many people bore me. I've tried to analyze whether this is because I'm arrogant or whatever. Has anyone had a similar experience?

People have thought I'm a lesbian many times throughout my life(I'm not). I just don't feel the need for male attention in order to feel secure about myself. I also am hardly impressed with anyone to the extent that I feel the need to pursue a relationship with them. Why waste my time?

And yes, I have thought many times how much easier it'd be to be a man. It just seems so much simpler. Like men have a brotherhood. I find relationships with women rather difficult with the emotionality and the competition between them. I'm heterosexual so I can't really be friends with men (it would turn into something else and they find me physically attractive[toot, toot]) and I don't really relate to other women that well, so the result is that most of the time I'm in No Man's Land. I've often wished I could be friends with men, but the confines of my sex does not allow this (sigh)...

schwartzie

09-29-2009, 06:51 AM

so... do any of us have xntx sisters? (sibs) ... and care to describe those relationships?
mine is an isfj and we aren't as close as we would like to be.... there is a big gulf of preference to reach over....

SelfMadeBum

09-29-2009, 07:07 AM

I have two ENFJ girlfriends and we get along like sisters. When they go off on their hair-clothes-facebook-boys babble, I simply tune out. They understand.

vern

09-29-2009, 07:20 AM

No, no nt's in my family, the one I grew up with, I am a pariah.

(*sits down next to schwartzie*)

My daughter is nt however, whether she likes it or not and the relationship is far closer than most mother daughters. Comfortable silence and sarcasm permeate our domicile and it is very nice.

I have reflected a bit on my friendships, many are based on me being a nurturer, odd as that sounds for an intj. I am an advisor not a hugger, these are the people who are not insecure but are younger than I am. My male friends, often referred to as my harem, whom I treasure, are kind of admirer's and/or protectors. Honesty I cannot say I am one of them, we have things in common and we are perfectly happy and comfortable in each other's company but what I recall and realize is they simply accepted me with all my quirks. Unconditional love I think it is called, no expectations, they were the ones who made sure I did not work always, insisting I come out dancing and stuff, would hang out and watch movies while I worked at my drafting table.

I think my problems relating or becoming close are more my not wanting to than not being capable of it. I want things on my own terms, my family, (parents) went to great lengths to make me conform to their way and I couldn't. I believe, (say I a lot don't I) that it is a confidence thing and self protection as well. I because of bad interactions in the past push the people away simply so I do not have to suffer through the drama and emotional stuff which I have endured in the past. We learn from our mistakes and tend not to repeat them, unfortunately their is a sacrifice involved in this, we lose out on intimacy and companionship. Is that bad?

schwartzie

09-29-2009, 07:34 AM

haha.
Vern, your daughter and mine suffer an intj mom. She forgives me my worst intj excesses tho because I let her see things like... oh... the "My Little Pony" thread here on intjf.... and so she is amused and keeps me around most of the time, but still has the tough job of beating on me to be more xnxx-like, which, surprisingly and wonderfully, is working! ... i think...

As for wanting closeness.... I remember Rara Avis posting once in her blog about how she was trying to buy a car and decided she needed a friend to come along... and suddenly realized .... she HAD no friends for that job.... damn.... she hadn't ever felt the omission before....
That resonated with me. My friendships tend to be bounded; women friends have roles that don't extend to all parts of my life, but stay in their channels.... if that makes sense.

vern

09-29-2009, 08:07 AM

Bound friendships, those I understand, I only let people go so far less I do something to damage them somehow. Or perhaps to preserve the relationship, just like not becoming sexual with male friends, it becomes neccessary to keep control, keep things in the safety zone.

I don't know why I cannot let go of these limitations, they just seem to get worse as I age. Is it intj or is it due to the need not to repeat past errors?

Don't you hate it when reality slams you in the face? Like with Rara Avis and her car, I was perfectly happy before I connected those two dots. I had a somewhat similar experience recently where someone stepped into my path and blocked me. I had been gleeful and content, until they pointed out that I was alone, and life has been irritating since then and I am not so happy anymore.

hutbug

09-29-2009, 08:43 AM

Just knowing you all are out there feeling the same things is such a good feeling! Vern, I know exactly what you mean about being reminded of your lack of friends. I will be going along perfectly happy, then something will remind me, and then I feel, once again, just not good enough. Do we all measure success by how many people like us? I have such a strong fear of rejection that I push people away before they can reject me. And I can see myself doing it, throwing up the wall, and I can't seem to stop it.

Musing

09-29-2009, 09:29 AM

I think there may be one aunt on my husband's side that is NT. Otherwise I am the only one, male or female. My sister is most definitely an SF and my brother is likely an ST.

It's the little things that hit me in regard to no friends. The problem is I'm not sure that the reality of having friends to do little tasks with would be as appealing out there as it is in my head.

hutbug

09-29-2009, 02:54 PM

There IS a lot of work involved in being with 'friends'. I like a long-term relationship because time has a wonderful way of creating trust and bonding on a level where you can have comfortable silence, you can fart and burp, and it's all ok. If I grabbed a person I know sort of well but not really really well and went with them to the movies or whatever, I would feel pressure to keep the conversation going, etc. Sometimes it works, but when it doesn't, it's really uncomfortable.

schwartzie

09-29-2009, 03:03 PM

The problem is I'm not sure that the reality of having friends to do little tasks with would be as appealing out there as it is in my head.

hahaha

yes indeed. If only they would willingly sit on the shelf where you puts them while you wander off and do things... for weeks and months ... and years ... .

SpaceCadet

09-29-2009, 03:40 PM

There seems to be, for the most part, a consensus as to how we are and how we interact or more appropriately do not interact with the rest of the population. So are we misogynists? Although we cannot be by definition but honestly I believe that I am at times, when I meet a man who is I understand them a lot better than I understand most women. Even though I know it is not right that is how I feel during and after interactions with women, sometimes, with the rare few it is all I can do not to punch them in the mouth to stop their bitchy, game playing, yapping crap.

Hilarious. It's exactly this way with me. I'm always joking at work with the men about "women at work". I'm in charge of a group of mostly women and whenever one of them cries or something I head straight for my office or the nearest guy. And even most of the men are intimidated by me, hell! At least I have a teenage INTJ girl there to commiserate with me. She's the hardest thing I've ever seen. Pure villain. She cracks me up so bad. The other day she said to me, "You know when you can't find anything right about someone"? Classic.

Silverity

09-29-2009, 09:34 PM

I wanted to know if anyone has had a similar experience living as an INTJ woman. I have difficulty relating and being friends with other women because I find most of their conversation to be frivolous and pointless. I don't really like to make conversation unless there's a reason. I've also found that many people bore me. I've tried to analyze whether this is because I'm arrogant or whatever. Has anyone had a similar experience?

People have thought I'm a lesbian many times throughout my life(I'm not).

I've often wished I could be friends with men, but the confines of my sex does not allow this

This is a similar to reply that I make with many threads....are you SURE you're not just hanging out with the wrong women? Haha.

I have two groups of lady friends, first is younger than me, our conversations revolve around grad programs, structural adjustment programs and the limitations of epidemiological studies. The second group are MUCH older than me, we converse about program limitations and strengths, social justice movements and activism.

No one has walked up and asked if I were a lesbian but I've been asked out by other females a couple times =\ It's...well, it's not actually that flattering. I really don't care if people like my physical appearance or not, it's my brain I want them to enjoy. Yerg.

My best most precious friend in the world is a guy. As it happens we were quite attracted to one another, and for a year and a bit things were heated, we dated, we broke up, and he's STILL my best friend, and we're still attracted to each other but nothing happens. I don't see why that should stop you! Guys make excellent friends and when you're blue their hugs are infinitely more satisfying =P As long as communication lines are open I don't think it matters.

At least I have a teenage INTJ girl there to commiserate with me. She's the hardest thing I've ever seen. Pure villain. She cracks me up so bad. The other day she said to me, "You know when you can't find anything right about someone"? Classic.

Hahahahahahahaha. I know that feeling SO well. My Dad is an INTJ, and I'm really glad I grew up under his influence. It's so nice to have someone who understands.

yoginimama

09-30-2009, 05:53 PM

I had been gleeful and content, until they pointed out that I was alone, and life has been irritating since then and I am not so happy anymore.

Who was this person, and who gave them the right to bring you down?

If you were "gleeful and content" until this person stuck their oar in, then ignore what they said. Hold to your own truth: you were happy before they opened their big mouth. Therefore, the problem is theirs, not yours.

Ava

09-30-2009, 06:04 PM

I don't really know what other people think of me, though I would not be surprised to learn that a great many of them think I'm a snob, or did at one point. The only time I know of that I was ever thought to be a lesbian was when I was 13 and didn't have a 'boyfriend' to hold hands with in the hallways... which I guess is kind of surprising because I've never really dated anyone. But I try to avoid telling most people that. But most people don't say much of anything to me, one way or another.

Maybe it's because I've spent a lot of time the past 6 or so years being around a lot of fairly intelligent, somewhat nerdy girls, but I don't think the problem of not relating has been, in my experience, as bad as it could have been (like, say, with high school). I can have reasonable conversations about deeper things with the girls at work (though they are quite short and take an awful lot of effort to get there in the first place), and every once and a while I like to chat about something a bit 'shallow'.

But I can't see myself really connecting with them... I really do feel there's this sort of girl code of behavior and this idea of sisterhood and whatnot and it's all this stuff that I don't understand or don't care about. Like there's this glass wall between me and them and it's only slightly more transparent than the one between me and men. I only ever had one friend I really felt connected to, and I think she may haven been an INFP. My current best friend, we're close in the sense that I can expect her to 'be there' and those sorts of things but I feel like there's a level of communication that I have with some other people that we'll just never reach.

I have a good handful of online male friends, and I used to have more... I just feel like they're easier to sit and converse with and the online aspect prevents any sort of romantic possibilities from forming on their part. I used to have in-person male friends here and there but that invariably ended in the male friend taking a good long time to finally reach the conclusion that no, I was not interested in dating them and never was, and then promptly ditch me and never speak to me again for any reason. I'm not really inclined to try for that again.

Femmebott

09-30-2009, 06:22 PM

I have friends who are the total opposite of me (ESFP I think)
They give me a good outlet
It gets a bit boring when you are ALWAYS by yourself

However I get called mad, or depressed, or snobbish
I am actually bisexual so lesbian is only 1/2 right
EVERYONE has stupid conversation but I can find people who can stimulate me with intellectual thought every now and then
My professors and I are always on the same level; we talk as if we are all the same age!

MirrorMirror

09-30-2009, 08:44 PM

Like with Rara Avis and her car, I was perfectly happy before I connected those two dots. I had a somewhat similar experience recently where someone stepped into my path and blocked me. I had been gleeful and content, until they pointed out that I was alone, and life has been irritating since then and I am not so happy anymore.

I used to feel the same way. I am a private person by nature and it doesn't bother me to be alone (this is not something I'm saying to try to justify or to delude myself, trust me). I used to think that there was something wrong with me, like why didn't I feel lonely like I should? It was only when I looked at myself in comparison, that I felt guilty about not being so social.

Then I worked at this job with these group of women. I realized that the reason I wasn't so friendly, was because I didn't care to be friends with them, not because anything was wrong with me. On the surface I tried to act as I should, to be friendly and sociable with them, but underneath what I felt was a slight contempt. (Not so say all women are like this, just this particular group). They talked about being insecure about their bodies and wanting implants, while I felt just fine with my B cups. I wasn't trying to be antagonistic to them at all, but it seemed to make them angry that I didn't participate in all their self-loathing talk; That I didn't sacrifice myself in order to appeal to their insecurities.

So be lucky that you have the ability as an INTJ to be as independent as you wanna be. I know I am. I'm sure there are plenty of people worth getting to know.

Brittle

10-01-2009, 02:42 AM

OMG Mirror Mirror - your last post could have come from my own mouth ('cept the bit about feeling guilty about not being sociable - I don't do guilt)!! Funny thing is, I can be very sociable if the mood strikes, and certainly with work aquaintences and the like I seem to be popular (our receptionist divulged her secret burgeoning romance to me just this week and was asking for all sorts of advice), but it does often feel like something I'm doing because it's the "right" thing to do. Engaging in chit-chat and "being interested" in people's lives fosters trust and makes life a lot easier in general, so for me it seems to be a sensible thing to do.

But yes, then when it comes to the self loathing and bitching about other women (seriously, I really don't understand all the "sisterhood" stuff coming from women who hold hands and go shopping together, then bitch about each other behind each other's back!) I just can't do it. I'm inclined to tell them to shut the f**K up! Then they get all bewildered and upset that you're not a "real" friend, when in my mind, by being myself I'm more genuine than half the other women they hang out with.

This is where guys are just so much less complicated.

Problem with being good friends with guys though, is they then get girlfriends who get all jealous and overprotective of their men and pretty much try to kill those friendships. Hell, if we get along so well and there was any chemistry to be had, don't you think we'd be dating each other..?!!!

Seriously.... life is so much easier with books! :)

Tantravaya

10-01-2009, 03:22 AM

An INTJ female I absolutely cannot work under a female boss. I tend to always gravitate to male dominated industries so I can work under a male boss with male co-workers. At work I like to be organised and disciplined with clear guidance and direction. If you want me to follow rules, give them to me in a concise format and I will follow them. On the other hand let me be creative and inspired without being interferring, critical and bossy. If my male boss was replaced with a female I would last 5 minutes.

Socially I have more male friends than female friends. I like women yet I am very bored with social conversation unless it has real meat and depth e.g. something I am keenly interested in. lol.

Brittle

10-01-2009, 03:27 AM

An INTJ female I absolutely cannot work under a female boss..

Ugh... I'm struggling with my female supervisor at the moment. She's a great person, but a lousy manager because - despite what she might like to think about herself - she's quite moody. We got along quite well initially, but I've stood my ground on a couple of issues lately and now she's all pissed off and snarky at me. Which isn't to say that wouldn't happen with a male, but they tend to say their bit and get on with it. Women seem to hold grudges a lot longer.

Tantravaya

10-01-2009, 03:44 AM

Tough Love

10-01-2009, 04:52 AM

Then they get all bewildered and upset that you're not a "real" friend, when in my mind, by being myself I'm more genuine than half the other women they hang out with.

Loool on the 'real' friends. When someoen says 'you get to know who your real friends are' so what, you have fake friends? Friends are people you choose to involve in your life. Admit you made a bad choice.... Or dont feel the need to keep friends you dont really like as an accessory.

Seriously.... life is so much easier with books! :)

Amen!

schwartzie

10-01-2009, 05:18 AM

I had a somewhat similar experience recently where someone stepped into my path and blocked me. I had been gleeful and content, until they pointed out that I was alone, and life has been irritating since then and I am not so happy anymore.

I'm sorry to hear of this. *huggles* I hope that the xxFx types in your life learned of this and were able to help. I've found that, if you let them, they will.... it's their job/where they get their value, and they are happy to do it, even if you aren't as intimate as you might be.

An INTJ female I absolutely cannot work under a female boss. I tend to always gravitate to male dominated industries so I can work under a male boss with male co-workers. At work I like to be organised and disciplined with clear guidance and direction. If you want me to follow rules, give them to me in a concise format and I will follow them. On the other hand let me be creative and inspired without being interferring, critical and bossy. ...
Socially I have more male friends than female friends. I like women yet I am very bored with social conversation unless it has real meat and depth e.g. something I am keenly interested in. lol.
The cross-gender thing is generally true, I think. If you keep inappropriate sexual and other craziness out of it, women can work easily with men for bosses and men generally work well with women bosses; I think this is because our social rules and expectations give us an easy behavioral framework, that, like manners, keeps us from inadvertently biting one another's heads off.

Seducer

10-01-2009, 05:43 AM

I have thought many times how much easier it'd be to be a man. It just seems so much simpler. Like men have a brotherhood.

OH PLEASE, it's not easy to be a man. Being a man is brutal. You get insulted and verbally beat down all the time. Other guys are always trying to trash you, discourage you, and destroy your self esteem as a way to raise their status while destroying yours. They take great joy if you fail, and they hate it if you succeed.

The problems you talked about are INTJ problems, not gender problems.
We're so much smarter than most people that we just can't relate to them.
Their talk just sounds like the babbling of idiots to us.

Goodday

10-01-2009, 06:03 AM

Oh gosh you guys, I think, yep, yep, it's ADORATION I feel! I'm so sick to death of being told that I'm intimidating, unapproachable etc. Guess what? I don't care! In the spirit of true reality t.v., "I'm not here to make friends!". That's the story of my life. If I like your personality, I will seek you out and really make an attempt at conversing with you. Otherwise it's not worth the stress.

My sister-in-law was all over this for the first 4 years that we knew each other and never got past the initial impression to see that I am kind, loyal,caring and funny. I finally (in true INTJ fashion) had to say, "what the hell? what's up your ass?" and take all the blame just to get her talking so I could explain (yet again) my INTJism.

I find relationships with men (easy because I'm happily married) to be way more fulfilling because I can be blunt and direct and they think it's funny, not mean. It's great, I love going out with my husband and his guy pals. I'm pretty sure they think I'm the fun wife. I hope so anyway.

Any other girls sick to death of explaining how they are to people. I always start with, "I'm just going to let you know now that I will probably offend you because I am bold, blunt and honest. Don't ask my opinion if you don't want to know what I really think, I seem to be unable to lie". Sooooo tired of this game.

yoginimama

10-01-2009, 06:34 AM

Any other girls sick to death of explaining how they are to people. I always start with, "I'm just going to let you know now that I will probably offend you because I am bold, blunt and honest. Don't ask my opinion if you don't want to know what I really think, I seem to be unable to lie". Sooooo tired of this game.

Right, yes. And then...they expect you to lie anyhow.

Or do whatever it was you specifically said you couldn't/wouldn't do. (Bake cupcakes, strategically befriend a third party, do something with your hair...)

hutbug

10-01-2009, 09:50 AM

Ugh... I'm struggling with my female supervisor at the moment. She's a great person, but a lousy manager because - despite what she might like to think about herself - she's quite moody. We got along quite well initially, but I've stood my ground on a couple of issues lately and now she's all pissed off and snarky at me. Which isn't to say that wouldn't happen with a male, but they tend to say their bit and get on with it. Women seem to hold grudges a lot longer.

I have the same EXACT problem with mine - we've worked together for 25 years, but I'm on a constant self-improvement program and she's the same person she was 25 years ago. So the things we used to have in common, like judging everyone else and talking smack about everyone, are no longer what I want to do, and so I think she feels like I'm distancing myself from her. I still really enjoy our conversations about how the world should be vs. how it is, etc., but there's some frosty there now that wasn't there before. And of course since she's my boss, this all gets tangled up with my wallet.:uneasy:

hutbug added to this post, 11 minutes and 26 seconds later...

OH PLEASE, it's not easy to be a man. Being a man is brutal. You get insulted and verbally beat down all the time. Other guys are always trying to trash you, discourage you, and destroy your self esteem as a way to raise their status while destroying yours. They take great joy if you fail, and they hate it if you succeed.

The problems you talked about are INTJ problems, not gender problems.
We're so much smarter than most people that we just can't relate to them.
Their talk just sounds like the babbling of idiots to us.

Thank you so much for verifying what I have long suspected about being a man. There's a book, "My Life As A Man" by Norah Vincent, that I read recently - the author dressed as a man and worked as a man in a corporation for about 8 months. Facinating!! Sometimes I forget that men have a lot of pressures and restrictions on them in our culture, and they have my compassion.

To be frank, the female bashing by other females on this thread disturbs me. Truly, the differences between individuals are far greater than those between the genders. We women have so much pressure on us, both externally and internally generated, we don't need to put each other down or diminish ourselves with lame generalizations. As many posters here have pointed out, it just depends on the group and the group function - if it's an architecture office you're going to hear some pretty intelligent conversations - if you're at a party, maybe not so much - from ANYBODY. If I have to go to a party, I usually find one smart person and we get into a looonngg one on one about something facinating. I just can't do parties any other way.:wacko:

MirrorMirror

10-01-2009, 12:24 PM

I apologize if I offended any women with my original post. It was not my intention to make generalizations about women. I hate generalizations more than anyone and I understand they're unjust and unreasonable. The people I admire most are all women, in fact, and I looove fashion. And, no, I don't believe men can do no wrong; I know they have their limitations and faults, just as all human beings do. My relationships just seem less complicated with men, than with women. I'm not saying this based on a few random experiences, but throughout my life in general. I was simply airing my frustrations about my own sex.

cheremere

10-01-2009, 12:54 PM

I definitely have a problem getting along easily with the average woman. Sometimes I wonder if I do feel like a man does, like when I feel quite tired of their pointless gabbing.

I am not always so harsh. I too have tried getting along. I find that I have to go deep undercover and keep my real thoughts and opinions and advice to myself for me to be accepted by most groups.

I have been trying to profile what kind of woman seems to take the most disliking to me. I am not sure if there is any specific MBTI combo, as I know an INTP woman had it out for me but my husband is an INTP. Also an ISFJ recently got really competitive with me after being obviously threatened by me just living my life. But my MIL is an ISFJ and she tends to look to me for advice.

The type I have found who I seem to have conflict with are women who are Queen Bees or use to having some sort of power in a social group. They don't like me because I don't care about their power. I don't play that game. Also, like I can with most people, I can see right through them and maybe they get the vibe that I do. Often I am better than they are at the specific skill set that they think gives them some importance. This can lead to a one-sided competition. She tries to put me in my place and I refuse to accept her manipulation. This upsets the balance of social groups.

I belong to a national organization with many very highly gifted women in it and, as I found out after polling recently, many of them are INTJ! When I get together with them it is fantastic! Too bad it is only once a year that we get to meet face to face.

vern

10-01-2009, 01:47 PM

yoginimama sagely put and I have often said the same to others... overall there was/is a little serendipity involved in this encounter, as I had been suffering a bit of mental burn out and was contemplating my work and trying to decide whether or not to continue down the path I had chosen, more accurately am constructing or *looks over shoulder*. This individual simply made me look deeper into myself and reaffirmed what I know to be my truth and so it was a good thing perhaps. *shudder*

Seducer you are missing the point, it is perhaps something male intj's can relate to however there is a wide gap between how we as female intj's function, think and operated in our society than how women are suppose to be. We do not flirt, giggle, blah, blah, blah... Saying this was in no way meant to undermine your struggles as a male or a male intj, just letting you know this is in fact a gender issue, I am a heterosexual female who possess an alpha male personality...fun! What I look like and who I am are polar opposites or should I say we because we have discovered in this thread that this is a common ground some of us share and we are simply acknowledging it. Don't get your back up or take it personally it is just our little commiseration festival. (Normal woman would be having a pity party by the way.) We are also not woman bashing, I said some women I have the instinct to bash, not all, I get along with several, just not as well or with as many as with men.

I am for the most part happy and confident however a small(very) part of me at times looks over at the 'f's' and wonder's, less and less often however as I age. This...

'My misfortune is doubly painful to me because it will result in my being misunderstood. For me there can be no recreation in the company of others, no intelligent conversation, no exchange of information with peers; only the most pressing needs can make me venture into society. I am obliged to live like an outcast.'
— Ludwig van Beethoven

quote pretty much expresses what it is, or feels like to be me sometimes, most times.

Goodday

10-01-2009, 04:14 PM

If the generalization fits.....well, you know the rest. I'm super excited if I meet someone as able to understand personality differences as I am but too often I find that WOMEN can't because they are too sensitive, by nature. If you aren't that way then I am not talking to you. However, as a whole, women are expected to be sensitive and empathetic because historically that is how they (the majority of women) respond to life experiences. How could anybody argue with that?

This isn't saying that I don't try to get along with women (or that I bash them), I am honest and not two faced and genuinely care about them (I worked at Planned Parenthood for 8 years for petes sake!) but the fact is that my personality type clashes with most of the women I meet in the course of my life. I'm simply tired of explaining how I relate to people because most women don't care to see beyond the surface.

Deliberator

10-01-2009, 06:55 PM

OP: everything you've listed is quite familiar to me. The good news is, if you get married you will most likely have an easier time actually being good friends with your mate than most women would. I married an INTP and we get along famously.

Being a single INTJ female in Regular Society (and by regular I mean not some specialized group, like an engineering club or something) is quite difficult so waste no time in finding your niche. Mine is science, so I haven't found it too hard to find females who are more like me.

HmjG

10-01-2009, 07:29 PM

Women bosses seem to draw situations or issues into other unrelated scenarios and a small thing can drive a whole working relationship. Duh!

As a female boss, I resent that comment. Aren't you guys being a little hard on your own sex? Men are often just as emotional (instead of crying on a shoulder they just plug someone in the nose). They are also quite capable of holding grudges. In fact, the most emotional and grudge holding boss I've ever had was male. He was ESF*.

Murky Muse

10-01-2009, 08:12 PM

I've never really had a problem with other women. In fact most my friends are girls, granted most are also rationals. I just ignore those that I can't stand, and in turn they seem ignore me.

lincoln

10-01-2009, 09:08 PM

Yup yup can't stop feeling left out. I don't have any idea what I should say to stupid people....that's all. As long as you are smart enough, open enough, independent minded enough I can be your friend, I can talk to you...Those are the cold hard facts, man, woman it doesn't matter it's usually about Da braaiiinnnnssss....

Musing

10-01-2009, 09:11 PM

I don't have any idea what I should say to stupid people....that's all.

Smile and look for the nearest and quickest escape. Bribe a more tolerant friend to take the bullet for you if all else fails. If you have more tolerant friends. I may have to rethink the last part of my strategy.

TigerL

10-01-2009, 09:27 PM

My closest friends are women but perhaps a select group. They're all rational thinkers to some degree and we talk about a variety of topics although probably less about relationships, make-up, celebrities, and clothes than other women.

Two "feminine" subjects I enjoy are fashion and cooking so I can usually find common ground with most women. Recently, I was stuck on a plane between a chic middle-aged woman and a students in her 20s. I asked the older woman about her beautiful purse and this started an entertaining talk with both women initially about handbags and their poor functional design which then led into books we had recently read. I think women (and not just INTJ women) are deeper thinkers than society gives us credit for.

I wear dresses, skirts, heels, make-up so most people assume I am heterosexual (which I am). But I keep my relationships private which led one acquaintance to ask me directly whether I was a lipstick lesbian. It is sad that some people jump to such conclusions if you don't conform to the usual standards. I've also had a female friend say to me once that if I were male, she'd marry me in a heartbeat! (I was left sorta speechless.)

When I was younger I used to think boys had it better. I hung out with my brother and his friends playing baseball/flag football up until mid-teens. They were more direct and easygoing than a lot of girls. But now that I'm older, I appreciate being female.

schwartzie

10-01-2009, 11:14 PM

Just for the sake of clarity... Do you mean that xsfx type bosses are hard?

My boss is a woman, as is her boss and her boss' boss. And MY boss is the best on the frikken earth. ENFP, likely, and smart and experienced. She enjoys and values people doing well, and does not compete with them. She cares for each of us and makes our personal and work-related lives immeasurably better. She encourages professional growth, personal satisfaction, independence, teamwork, creativity. She knows that family is more important than the job. She gives cover, generously. She does not gossip nor is she petty or damaged. She has made my life immeasurably better than it likely would have been without her in it. She inspires loyalty. I would do almost anything she asked. so....

fatkattykat

10-02-2009, 02:13 PM

I don't have a lot problems getting along with women, but I am sure that from time to time, I have felt very similar. I probably have more female friends than male friends, and they are of different personality types. A lot of it has to do with the fact that I never had a sister...I have one biological brother and at one point had 3 step-brothers. So I really do appreciate female companionship because I think that, while guys may be more straightforward and match a lot of my interests better, they cannot relate to me as another female can.

Some of the posts I read to lead me to wonder what kind of women some of you encountered. With experiences like what one person described at the all-girls school, I definitely think those feelings are validated. I do know that women can be backstabbing, but as HmjG put it, men can be equally as bad. In my walk in life, I have encountered attitudes and negativity from men and women alike.

Tantravaya

10-02-2009, 03:28 PM

As a female boss, I resent that comment. Aren't you guys being a little hard on your own sex? Men are often just as emotional (instead of crying on a shoulder they just plug someone in the nose). They are also quite capable of holding grudges. In fact, the most emotional and grudge holding boss I've ever had was male. He was ESF*.

Our comments are very subjective, all based on our experiences of course. There are reasons I suspect that we have the experiences we do. Knowing that I do not get on at all with female bosses has shown me that I would be a terrible boss myself. My expectations of others would be as high as the expectations I have of myself and that is nothing less than "perfection". I wouldn't tolerate anything less than 110% effort and I would be an awful slave driver.

My daughter on the other hand loves working for female bosses and does not get on as well with male superiors. Like my perspective, it is a reflection of her story, her personal experiences and not an indictment of the world at large.

INTJfemale

10-02-2009, 07:55 PM

I feel so much relief at reading these posts. For me, it has been very hard being an INTJ female. My boss seems to be an ESFJ and we clash a bit. Many of my coworkers are SF's and honestly drive me completely insane. It takes so much effort on my part to try to deal with them in socially appropriate ways because I find so much of what they talk about stupid, irrelevant and trivial. I really don't care about your new shoes or your manicure. Then, I get upset with myself for being so cynical and for thinking mean thoughts. I've tried to cultivate a loving attitude but it's very hard sometimes.

JTG

10-02-2009, 09:28 PM

OH PLEASE, it's not easy to be a man. Being a man is brutal. You get insulted and verbally beat down all the time. Other guys are always trying to trash you, discourage you, and destroy your self esteem as a way to raise their status while destroying yours. They take great joy if you fail, and they hate it if you succeed.

This is true of guys, but i think it's also true of girls as well. The genders just use different language when bashing, haha

To stay on topic (and apologies for intruding in a women's thread) i imagine it's more difficult for INTJ women because of society's standards for girls. They're expected to be friendly, proper, emotional, and reserved... which are things a lot of INTJs don't excel at :P

hutbug

10-03-2009, 12:11 AM

MirrorMirror, I get what you're saying...I wonder if our relationships with men are less complicated because we don't see them as clearly as we do a person of our own gender? Maybe we don't hold them to as high a standard. Don't you love it when a bunch of women stand around and bash some female celebrity for everything from her hair to makeup to shoes, but never a negative word for her dowdly, ugly male mate?

Cheremere, I'm glad you said that about Queen Bee types, that's EXACTLY what I'm going through right now with a women's group I just joined. I'm debating whether or not to stick with it and learn to suck up my annoyance and use it as a tool to practice retaining my sense of self. It's very weird, everyone is sort of bowing to this one woman. I don't want to be a leader or a follower in any group, I just want to be a friend among friends, a worker among workers, etc.

Lincoln, I have met some obvious INTJs in my life, and I don't always like them/us. We can be obnoxiously opinionated and ridiculously self-absorbed, which is a turn-off no matter how smart we are. When I as an INTJ meet someone like that, it's a reminder to me of what I have to work on in myself. I'm realizing that any of us who have people in our lives willing to take the time to get to know us, are very lucky indeed.

t3hrubikscube

10-03-2009, 02:19 AM

I guess I'd never really thought about it before, but I have a hard time relating to most other women as well. I have had plenty of fellow female friends before, but I have a hard time sitting down with a group of girls and enjoying myself. I'm not saying that I'm better than they are, because I'm not. I just have a hard time relating to them and enjoying their typical conversations. It's just not me.

Eyedears

10-04-2009, 05:04 AM

If you are like me you probably tend to overwhelm them a little with your intensity. I've had plenty of people think I was perpetually mad when I'm really just intense. This is another one of the most refreshing things I've read here: I have the same problem, but always thought it was "just me." I simply don't live life "pass/fail," I can't be "moderate" or "low-key" or "laid back."

There is definitely a 'girl code' of some sort, and somehow I don't quite measure up. Mega-dittos.

with the rare few it is all I can do not to punch them in the mouth to stop their bitchy, game playing, yapping crap. LMTO! :thumbsup: Me all the way. (And don't forget all the neurotic shrieking and screaming that they do for emphasis---not when they're mad, but just in their "exuberance." Deliver me.)

so I headed over to chat with the guys,...turns out they were all engaged in coversations about pretty much the same part of a woman's anatomy, only this involved things going in, rather than coming out..!!! :laugh: :laugh: (Was that a literal case of "small talk"?)

Personally, my closest women friends over time have all been bright xNxxs. ExZACTly!

life is so much easier with books! :) Yes! And animals!

We're so much smarter than most people that we just can't relate to them. Their talk just sounds like the babbling of idiots to us. Hear, hear! :thumbsup:

never got past the initial impression to see that I am kind, loyal, caring and funny. The story of my life. Very few women ever bother to give me a "2nd chance." When I was still teaching, one year, one section of the class didn't have me as an instructor for the first 6 weeks of the 8.5 month course duration. By the time they finally got me, they had been thoroughly poisoned by the other 3 sections of the class (I was just as demanding of my students as I was of myself, and most of them hated me for it). But after about a week, out of the blue during class, one of the gals in this particular section (which contained only 2 guys) burst out with "I don't care what they say, I really LIKE you!" The others cordially concurred. She and her new hubby (they met in that class) later even invited me to a Xmas dinner and their wedding, where they actually wanted me to sing. It was very touching (and I am quite sure Charlotte was an xSFJ, LOL) and refreshing---but also unique.

Evangelist

10-04-2009, 01:03 PM

Tough Love

10-05-2009, 02:20 AM

OP: everything you've listed is quite familiar to me. The good news is, if you get married you will most likely have an easier time actually being good friends with your mate than most women would. I married an INTP and we get along famously.

I agree totally with this. I have been with an INTJ for three years, just married, and i find we have a great friendship i havent had with other men ive previously dated. We connect on many unusual levels, which works fine for both of us. Sure we dont have a ''mushy'' relationship, but i wouldnt be able to cope with that personally. We do affection in our own way :)

Mint

10-05-2009, 04:29 AM

I have learned to have deep discussions about things that pertain to women. I am a Mary Kay consultant and will talk hours about cosmetics. It gives me something to chew the fat with.

I've spent all of my adolescence amid girls and women, as I go to a single-gender high school. I know girls (the vast, vast majority) are interested (passionate?) about completely unimportant things; but there are a few whom I understand and who understand me. It's an environment quite unlike any other, a girls' school, and I've learned to have discussions about things about typically female subjects. It can be achieved, and it's a good skill to have. That being said, I have no patience with shopping etc. It's hard, sometimes.

Booman

10-05-2009, 05:40 AM

INTJ's effects on girl's life sounds like Asperger syndrome's effects on girl's life.

Antares

10-05-2009, 06:01 AM

I've had an ENFP complain about me because she thought I was "cold" to her, and then I had to explain that no, I'm usually like that. Past boyfriends have told me that they cannot read me, and then all sorts of assumptions come along; am I giving them the cold shoulder? Do I even like them? Am I being moody (wtf)? Am I angry at them? Should they apologize? (and last but not least) Do I need to talk about it? Talk about what? I was just being spacey; nothing to share here. And no, nothing is wrong. Do I have to spell it out for you? Get out of my face. I have a feeling that they don't get me because I'm so different from a normal "woman". I say what I mean and mean what I say, is that so hard to get?

Tough Love

10-05-2009, 06:45 AM

INTJ's effects on girl's life sounds like Asperger syndrome's effects on girl's life.

I thought i was autistic for a long hard time. It was all very confusing.

yoginimama

10-05-2009, 06:55 AM

I don't have a lot of friends, period. Most of my best friends are male, but I do enjoy being a female. I have learned to have deep discussions about things that pertain to women. I am a Mary Kay consultant and will talk hours about cosmetics. It gives me something to chew the fat with.

Now that's smart. If I had the time right now, I'd do that.

I find that I'm able to connect with other women via family--how's the mate, how are the kids, is your fundamentalist sister-in-law bugging you more than usual, is your mom doing better.

These more sober concerns do creep up on the womenfolk as we get older, and I find that other women welcome an analytical ear where once they might have thought it was weird or useless or boring.

This may be the real reason so many women fear getting older--not because their looks change, but because that's a symbol of the fact that life stops being "fun" and playing to the strengths of E and S types.

NT women, however, start getting paid with interest for having been alienated in their youths.

...Also, I've just worked hard and been very lucky and found a few wonderful women for close friends who like to talk about abstruse, esoteric things with me that many other women would find boring :)

Tough Love

10-05-2009, 07:00 AM

NT women, however, start getting paid with interest for having been alienated in their youths.

Ive heard this as well. Im kind of hanging my hopes for a normal life on it!

Miryr

10-05-2009, 07:26 PM

I have difficulty relating and being friends with other women because I find most of their conversation to be frivolous and pointless. I don't really like to make conversation unless there's a reason.

God, I wish there were INTJs where I live... This is exactly how I feel almost always.

Anyway, have you tried saying that you're in a relationship or anything and then just getting to know someone under the "in a relationship" banner?

Brittle

10-06-2009, 03:32 AM

As a female boss, I resent that comment. Aren't you guys being a little hard on your own sex? Men are often just as emotional (instead of crying on a shoulder they just plug someone in the nose). They are also quite capable of holding grudges. In fact, the most emotional and grudge holding boss I've ever had was male. He was ESF*.

I'm not saying men aren't capable of being asses either (believe me, I've worked for at least one nightmare male!) but my personal experience has been that, in general, they have been much easier to work with than women. This has been for a few reasons; the men I have worked for didn't seem to take things personally when a problem needed resolving, they haven't seen me as competition, they haven't been as moody as women, they haven't confused friendliness with friendship.

Of course, I've worked for more men than women, so given the opportunity to even the numbers my experience may be different, but my experience is what it is. I have also been a female boss myself, however because of my nature, I like to think I was a good boss to work for - mainly because I would try to avoid all the issues I have listed above in order to remain calm, rational and objective (and most importantly - consistent!).

And while men may be just as subject to emotion as women, perhaps they just do a better job of keeping those emotions in check in a professional environment.

Again, just sharing my own experiences :)

hutbug

10-06-2009, 09:33 AM

Nothing can compare with people who try to understand you as you. ...the amount of time and work on their part is something I can't discount; I'm in awe of their pure effort alone.

This is SO true, and I've had people in my life like this and I've trashed them because I wasn't interested, and now I feel really really bad about it. :( older and wiser now.

I have a feeling that they don't get me because I'm so different from a normal "woman". I say what I mean and mean what I say, is that so hard to get?

Oh I so get that! I always feel so alien in a group of women! And of course I can't fit in with the guys because I'm female, so it's Stranger in a Strange Land.:alien:

This may be the real reason so many women fear getting older--not because their looks change, but because that's a symbol of the fact that life stops being "fun" and playing to the strengths of E and S types.

I read somewhere that women fear getting older because we derive their power from our sex appeal, while men get theirs from money and status.:thinking:

Naturelle

10-06-2009, 10:02 AM

I definitely feel alien sometimes.

I suspect that my husband may be ISFJ (heavy on the SF tendencies), and while he is definitely my best friend, sometimes I feel like I have to spell a lot of things out for him. He also kind of takes it for granted that I may know how he is feeling and I am utterly inept in that department, so sometimes it gets interesting.

Lately my sister who is textbook ESFP has been the bane of my existence. I supposedly hurt her feelings, and while I know the "reason" she is hurt, the fact of the matter is she is the origin of her own unease, so I don't feel any empathy for her. I tried and can't do it.

My mother is ENFP and we are just now beginning to get along, as long as we keep it superficial.

Usually I find myself in this cycle of: become friends with a woman, woman ends up suffering Queen Bee syndrome, woman doesn't realize that I am an alpha female but just more subtle, woman gets pissed off that I am not her lackey, women gets even more pissed that I am unaffected by her decision to not include me in her life. Thus, I end up with more male friends. We can both be alphas and support each other and not step on each other's toes. Men can be asses too, sometimes.

Deliberator

10-06-2009, 01:49 PM

Usually I find myself in this cycle of: become friends with a woman, woman ends up suffering Queen Bee syndrome, woman doesn't realize that I am an alpha female but just more subtle, woman gets pissed off that I am not her lackey, women gets even more pissed that I am unaffected by her decision to not include me in her life.

Yeah, that pretty much sums up my past relationships with females. In fact, I dumped four of them in just one summer... woo! I'd never felt so mean in my whole life.

Now I try to not be so subtle about my headstrength from the get-go, but it's difficult when I'm not really paying attention.

Eyedears

10-06-2009, 02:33 PM

I've had an ENFP complain about me because she thought I was "cold" to her, and then I had to explain that no, I'm usually like that Oh my gosh, Antares, that brings back a memory from college that at the time totally threw me for a loop: by nature, I'm task-oriented and in college, that was always even more pronounced bec. I had a triple major and also had to maintain a (partial) scholarship. Tho I hung out at mealtimes with a group of gals who were studious and straight-laced like me, the rest of the time, I was always in my head thinking about my studies and not given to chitchat as I was walking the corridors or across the campus.

One day, beginning of sophomore year, the student dean (not the one for academic affairs, but the one who "holds" people's hands---glorified babysitter) calls me in. Sitting next to her was one of her darlings (I only found out that tidbit later), glaring at me. Now, this darling was someone from a clique that I of course knew of, but had no personal dealings with. They existed on campus, I existed on campus, period. Giving me a saccharine smile, Dean says, "[My little darling] has a problem: she thinks you're hostile." I was floored. Little Darling was one amongst hundreds of women on that campus whom I had no personal contact with, other than passing them on the quad or in the halls. L.D. herself actually often seemed hostile towards me (her clique often came home really late @ night drunk as sailors, waking me up from deep and badly needed sleep, but I never said "boo" to them about it, never even opened the door in irritation---tho tempted to do so, yes), bec. she knew full well I wasn't like her & her ilk; I was motivated, excellence-oriented, and "mature" (according to adult standards for college students; obviously not as mature as a crone). Further conversation revealed that L.D.'s whole gripe about me was that I "never looked @ her" when I passed her. HUH?!? Not looking @ someone constitutes warrant for complaining to the student dean? I didn't look @ most people when I passed them! Sure, if it was a classmate or a friend or a prof from one of my classes, then, yes, I'd acknowledge them briefly, but I daily passed hundreds of fellow students and they could've just as well been air. It was nothing personal, it was just me surviving on a campus with hundreds of students, while my mind's wheels whirred on about the Catullus passage I had just tried to translate, or the Giono chapter I had just savored...

It's only now that I realize this "misunderstanding" all stemmed from my INTJ nature "clashing" with L.D.'s (probably subconscious) guilty conscience and feelings of inferiority as well. It seems to me that many times, anti-INTJ hostility stems from others feeling inferior, bec. they don't have the brains or articulateness we do (and I don't mean that in a supercilious way; I obviously can't take credit for the gifts I was born with, or for that matter, for the innate lack of interest in partying and other superficial---and life-destroying---inclinations/habits).

QuoteRadar

10-07-2009, 12:47 PM

I'm going to admit upfront to reading the first page of this thread and skimming the last before posting (gasp).

But I'm throwing in my hat with the INTJ gals who dislike hanging out with women. I can hang out with other girls as long as they are aware that if the conversation turns to boys or nail polish (somehow it ALWAYS does), I'm gone. This has led to me enforcing a no-girls-only social situations policy, which I have to frame as a no-gender-segregated activities policy so the girls don't give me crap about only hanging out with guys.

Not that I care; I'm absolutely heterosocial and I'm fine with that. Hanging out with mostly guys does sometimes present awkward situations, but I find it a lot less awkward than trying not to say something scathing about the frivolous topics of conversation among my female friends.

I find that being willing to smoke a cigar, talk cars, or chuckle at a crude joke generally solves a lot of awkwardness with guys, and to prove it, my best friend is actually a guy. We talk about cars and gadgets and music a lot, but sometimes we talk about life too - troubles with work or school, or even about his relationship with his girlfriend.

So guys aren't totally emotionless vessels of conversational awesomeness, but he's upfront about it instead of indirect and self-conscious like girls tend to be talking about those kinds of things. I think it's also probably nice for him to be able to get a girl's perspective without a completely awkward scene - and I know if I ever need a guy's opinion on guys (ditto on the whole being mistaken for lesbian thing others have said), I know I can talk to him.

The point I'm trying to make is; all social situations are potentially awkward. Girls being friends mostly with guys? Lots of potential for misunderstandings. But hanging out with girls is more awkward for me, so I make the trade-offs and I'm a happy INTJ for it.

(Plus, I have the good fortune of having discovered 5 INTJ friends in the last year or so and that helps immensely.)

Mabel

10-07-2009, 01:36 PM

When I was much younger than I am now, I was constantly having to get past the labels of being a "know it all" and "arrogant". Later I was striving to fullfil the obligations I had as a mother of three. Somehow I could not seem to stand their father(s) so I was a single mom. I never wanted kids, but I would give my life for the ones I was blessed to have, and for my grandkids.
Now I am labeled a lesbian by most of my female friends, most of whom are lesbians.of bisexual. I am definitely heterosexual. However, I can tell you now, if current hubby and I split up for any reason, I will never seek out another intimate relationship with the opposite sex.
I am too interested in what the rest of my life has to offer me to take on training another partner in the miniscule but exceptionally important aspects of my day to day routine, nor do I wish to be trained by the other person in theirs.
Though I am nearing my 60th birthday, I find there are way too many things I want to accomplish to waste a single precisous moment on nonesense such as picking up after another "adult"?

Deliberator

10-07-2009, 03:39 PM

I find that being willing to smoke a cigar, talk cars, or chuckle at a crude joke generally solves a lot of awkwardness with guys,

Downside is that they'll just fall madly in love with you.

Interestingly it was my sister who turned me on to cigars, though she definitely only smoked them to get attention from guys.

kristle

10-13-2009, 11:24 AM

I think the reason I prefer (and always preferred) male friendships to ones with women is the ease. For example - a guy is more likely to accept and **gasp** even like the fact that my INTJ nature leads me to be blunt, sarcastic and not get my feelings hurt easily. A vast majority of women see those qualities and interpret them as mean, cold and uncaring. So why constantly fight justifying yourself to women and having to tolerate their lengthy emotional cryfests of why I thought you didn't like me when you could hang with guys and just plain enjoy the company. It's so much less work. And since I'm straight it also has it's advantages.

I've also found that the women friends I've had tend to be really needy even if they don't show it at first. I will tolerate one hour long phone call about nothing but how fat they feel and why their ex doesn't like them anymore before I just don't answer again. You can't tell them yea your ex would probably still like you if you dropped your extra 20 pounds or the fact that he was a poor choice to begin with. These women don't want to improve themselves or the facts they just want you tell to them how perfect they are over and over again until they believe it. It's draining and I don't require that in return so there really isn't much of a mutual gain to be had. It's just me being used and I don't allow that.

Plus women get all butt-hurt if you don't call them constantly and do things with them constantly (except those rare gems). Guys are usually ok if you just show up when you feel like it and they don't hear from you again for the next month.

Murky Muse

10-13-2009, 11:37 AM

Plus women get all butt-hurt if you don't call them constantly and do things with them constantly (except those rare gems). Guys are usually ok if you just show up when you feel like it and they don't hear from you again for the next month.

It's sort of ironic. My one really close guy friend is the one that gets upset when he doesn't hear from us. My other three close friends either don't care that I don't call them much or are just as bad as me about not calling.

pandora

10-13-2009, 03:24 PM

I can relate to so much of what has been said here. I've been told I'm any of the above posted seemingly negative adjectives - intimidating, cold, arrogant, blunt, intense... and yes, lesbian. During one of my undergrad years I had a group of girls take me on and try and make life miserable. They tried everything from spreading rumours about my supposed lesbianism to generally taking over my space if I was sitting somewhere public like the pub having coffee, or class. They didn't quite like it when I laughed and asked if that was all they had and turned it back on them. All because of their own insecurities. Other people have made assumptions about my sexual status because I don't advertise who I may or may not be messing around with, have short hair (low maintenance), support friends who are LGBT (of course - we're all people no matter who we love/lust after), wear "comfortable clothes" (why not - might as well be comfortable), don't care about celebrity or fashion (a general why), care about social justice and politics (it's a big world with lots going on), etc. I have to laugh because it is so pitiful. We put people in box like categories so we know what to do with them or how to talk to them and when people don't fit they come up with their own conclusions to their own detriment as far as I can tell. Unfortunately we still live in a world where difference is bad.

I am shocked by Eyedears story about the Dean - doesn't the Dean have anything better to do? And the LD... just because you didn't bow to her?... holy cow. My sympathies.

I've never quite understood the female rituals and what they have to do with getting through the day. I had a roommate who would go into the bathroom and come out 45 minutes later looking the same, another one who would go to bed with her makeup on when her SO was staying over and she'd get up before he got up to scrub and reapply (and change the pillow slip) so that he wouldn't have to see the "real" her. I just don't get it, never have. This was a tough year and friends were taking bets as to how long I'd last in a house full of women. It was not a pleasant eight months. I didn't spend a lot of time at home. I also had a friend who didn't feel I was girly enough so she used to send me women's magazines with pages marked that I should pay attention to. I took the letter and whatever else was enclosed in the envelope and passed the magazine to the above roommate and asked for a synopsis of what I'm supposed to have read - just in case there was a quiz later.

I've always gotten along better with guys and still do today. I've been told that I'm difficult to be friends with (especially by women) because I don't necessarily tell women what I need from them. I've never been quite sure how to do that. The rules of disclosure have never been quite clear. My best friend is male as are most of my other friends. The female friends I do have are not necessarily INTJ but close enough that we don't have to cover the hair, makeup, fashion, boys conversations and if we are in a group and do have those conversations and I zone out she gets it and nudges me when it's over. It works for almost all of us. There are times that I ask about interpretations of events, gestures etc. and I have one friend who doesn't mind interpreting which is great.

I've always worked better with men than women and even this is evolving as I get older. The requirements and responses are changing as I approach the end of my 30's. I'm curious about what happens next.

Are we misogynist? No I don't think so. That requires an active hate along with actions that demonstrate that hate. We just don't get it and for the most part don't like it - big difference.

hutbug

10-13-2009, 03:49 PM

I certainly relate to everything said here, but I feel bad that I feel this way about women...I really want to like and respect women so that I can feel good about the gender I belong to, but sometimes it's hard...I have to remind myself that most men are no more admirable, as has been discussed here already.

I tend to see myself through what I imagine is a male point of view, perhaps because I've been married for 30 years to a very alpha male. When I look at women the way I imagine men do, I go to a very dark place, a place where men have no use for us except as sex objects, and we are dependent and weak...I've actually been in a real depression about this for a few days now.

I literally don't know who to turn to for help and guidance on this, except here in this forum. All I know is that I have to regain a more balanced perspective on all this, or I will end up moving to a cave in New Mexico. By myself. With a LOT of books.

Tough Love

10-14-2009, 04:00 AM

I tend to see myself through what I imagine is a male point of view, perhaps because I've been married for 30 years to a very alpha male. When I look at women the way I imagine men do, I go to a very dark place, a place where men have no use for us except as sex objects, and we are dependent and weak...I've actually been in a real depression about this for a few days now.

I find this extremely insightful. I too tend to see other women, the way a man would, probably because most of the friends ive made and have stayed close to over the years are guys. I am usually one girl with four guys when it comes to socializing, and while it can be funny hearing about ''this one bird i banged for fun'', it does probably eat away at my respect for women. I also have developed a kind of 'ego' on account of my social life, as im constantly being told ''your nothing like regular *insert derogatory word* women, thats why i get along with you so well'' and i suppose i let people bad mouth a certain part of my sex, because that certain part of my sex makes me feel very insecure about myself.

Having said that, i will never let a man generalize about my sex or try it with ''its a mans world'' etc. I may not respect women but i do believe their qualities are as equal (if different) as men.

hutbug

10-14-2009, 08:37 AM

I find this extremely insightful. I too tend to see other women, the way a man would, probably because most of the friends ive made and have stayed close to over the years are guys. I am usually one girl with four guys when it comes to socializing, and while it can be funny hearing about ''this one bird i banged for fun'', it does probably eat away at my respect for women. I also have developed a kind of 'ego' on account of my social life, as im constantly being told ''your nothing like regular *insert derogatory word* women, thats why i get along with you so well'' and i suppose i let people bad mouth a certain part of my sex, because that certain part of my sex makes me feel very insecure about myself.

Having said that, i will never let a man generalize about my sex or try it with ''its a mans world'' etc. I may not respect women but i do believe their qualities are as equal (if different) as men.

Ahhh, thank you for this graphic honesty! I love honesty!! I don't think I could tolerate the way your male friends talk about women, that would just piss me off to no end. It's just disrespectful to insult a group to the face of someone who belongs to that group. If the situation were reversed, I don't think any guy would put up with it, he'd just walk away in disgust.

Not sure what you mean by 'certain part of my sex'? A body part?

I am actively working on changing my views of women and men these days, and specifically trying to see and respect the special qualtites of women. I will hear an inner dialog spring up like 'where are all the women inventors' and I will counter it with something like 'there aren't that many male inventors either, and probably women came up with the original idea for most inventions anyway, and their male, having the time and energy since the woman was exhausted from child care and cleaning, etc., then figured out how to make it work' etc. etc. (I do believe this, btw - no way to really prove it because most men wouldn't admit it, but I do believe women came up with most of the ideas. When you are gathering food, taking care of kids, making a home in a cave or a log cabin, you get a lot of ideas about how things could be more efficient, but you don't have time to do the implementation - that's where the men came in handy - they wouldn't clean because they don't care enough, but they would figure out how to invent something to please their woman, maybe so they could have sex more often....oops, dark place again.) Anyway, reminding myself of facts like women's multi-millennial subjugation and restriction, lack of rights to freedom of movement and ownership of property, lack of reliable birth control and resultant slavery to family care...It's a lot of inner idea processing, but hey, that's what we're good at. If I were an extrovert I'd probably be president of NOW. Being an introvert, I'm just trying to survive what's between my ears! :knife:

Tough Love

10-14-2009, 09:21 AM

Not sure what you mean by 'certain part of my sex'? A body part?

The part of my sex being manipulated by men.... I think i have to rethink my approach...

Lol my gender sorry.

Anreader

10-17-2009, 06:43 PM

I also see other women from this strange perspective that is more "masculine". I see most other women as whiney, clingy creatures who are unwilling (or unable) to contribute fully to most endeavors. Why? Because someone else will do it! Most women seem to try to get men or other women to do things for them. My mother frequently manipulates people into helping her by saying "I'm Just a girl..." My mother is in her late 40's. If that was ever a valid excuse, and I don't think it was, it certainly isn't now.

I've also ran into the dreaded "Queen Bee". Some women seem to think they can treat me badly or make me do things bc of some kind of female hierarchy. Its stupid.

mareeka

10-17-2009, 10:09 PM

Being labeled by either males or females was always thier last effort to manipulate out of frustration........developed my Fe to blend in and not offend(mostly to blend)...always amusing when I began to annoy myself or other INTJ women....they were convinced...funny

liquidzilla

10-18-2009, 03:08 AM

It's sort of ironic. My one really close guy friend is the one that gets upset when he doesn't hear from us. My other three close friends either don't care that I don't call them much or are just as bad as me about not calling.

Actually this is the same for me. My female friends aren't bothered if they hear from me (well one is but most aren't) and most of my male friends (not all but alot) like to hear from me daily.
How strange.
(I must add that my male friends have all admitted being feminine).

Lucky

10-19-2009, 02:20 AM

The girls I spend time with hardly ever talk about looks, shopping, cooking and the like. I would not be able to stand spending time with women who only talk about such things.

Lucky added to this post, 7 minutes and 17 seconds later...

By the way my sister and I also hardly ever talk about "girl stuff".

Tough Love

10-19-2009, 04:45 AM

Plus women get all butt-hurt if you don't call them constantly and do things with them constantly (except those rare gems). Guys are usually ok if you just show up when you feel like it and they don't hear from you again for the next month.

Yes this is very true and one of the reasons my relationships with women dont last all that long.

Goodday

10-19-2009, 05:52 AM

Peaceolgy

10-19-2009, 02:09 PM

Yes! I have this problem. My mother once asked me if I was a lesbian because I was not "boy crazy" which I felt was odd to automatically assume I'm not attracted to men just because they aren't all I talk about (ok, ever talk about really). Also, I've always felt out of the loop when in came to having friends (particularly female). I just don't relate well to them, and vice versa. I hate talking about relationships or mundane, irrelevant things, mainly because I can't contribute to the conversation. I don't often think about cats or if the boy sitting four seats down from me in class glanced my way is interested or not. I just don't often trouble myself with things like that. It also doesn't help that I'm 20 and apparently if I'm not totally obsessed with relationships and guys, there's something wrong with me.

I think people tend to see me as distance, cold, studious, serious, driven, intense, etc. Which apparently makes me a bitch. No, sorry, I'm not. I do have feelings and opinions and will be your friend, granted, I just don't give a fuck about how your ex-best friend wants to add you on Facebook even though she called you a bitch and a slut 4 years ago. Really, I don't. And women tend to be turned off when they ask me for my opinion and I give it to them. *Gasp* Shocking, I know. I just can't stand it when people are really only asking for a complement.

In general though, I think people (both men and women) generalize and pigeon-hole women into "feelers" regardless of personality differences. This is frustrating because the ideology is set to view woman who are empathic, comforting, and willing and able to confide in others (particularly other woman) as being "normal" and anyone who doesn't fit within that spectrum as being abnormal or "not right". I know we, as a society, are more excepting towards independent woman, but it seems like sometimes they're only accepting if they're either in or actively pursuing a relationship (whilst being independent, mind you).

hutbug

10-20-2009, 03:25 PM

You know what's great though....my confidence, bravado, or whatever you want to call our ability to speak openly and honestly has helped me in so many awkward situations that I can't begin to cite them all. I will say that my brother and sister never had an unintended pregnancy because I informed them about birth control and reproduction from a young age (parents job I know but alas, it was me).

I agree, I have done this with all of my family, and I'm always shocked when I find they haven't already thought about all this stuff. How can you go through life with no planning and preparedness and forethought and other various CYA activities?? What, you don't use protection when you have sex? What, you don't have a fresh morning-after pill stashed in your wallet? What, you're 80 years old and never made a will? What, you're going to drive that car 1500 miles and you haven't checked the tires, the oil, etc? I suppose some people enjoy extemporaneous living, but it just makes me nervous! I think most people just don't think, period. All that unused grey matter just taking up space, lying fallow.

hutbug added to this post, 8 minutes and 41 seconds later...

It also doesn't help that I'm 20 and apparently if I'm not totally obsessed with relationships and guys, there's something wrong with me.
I know we, as a society, are more excepting towards independent woman, but it seems like sometimes they're only accepting if they're either in or actively pursuing a relationship (whilst being independent, mind you).

Spelling aside (!), I feel for you, I think all young people get a lot of this crap from their relatives and friends. We are wired as a species to reproduce, and despite all our trappings of civilization, we still move and speak in that ancient direction. Women get it more because we are the ones who choose our mates, not the other way around.

Parents of adult children need to get lives of their own and stop pressuring their kids about all this. What is it with middle-aged women just salivating to become grandmothers? I haven't the slightest interest in becoming a grandmother. I want my kids to be happy, that's all, whatever that means FOR THEM, not for me.

Personally I'd like one of them to be the first female US president, and the other to be a filthy rich ruthless CEO of some huge company...or a scientist who discovers the cure for not just one but all cancers...but hey, they aren't asking me what I think, and I'm trying desperately to keep my mouth shut.

intron

10-26-2009, 03:49 PM

Goodday

11-02-2009, 05:35 PM

I'm just curious: what are the ways to tell that a girl (who I have never encountered before or spoken to) is INTJ, and interested in me? In other words, if a random girl happens to be INTJ, she's obviously not going to be giving me all the normal/obvious signals that other girls do. Do you let your interest be known in some way to total strangers?

Yep, we walk up to you and tell you we want to jump your effing bones! haha, kind of kidding. Most often it's not hard to tell that an INTJ girl is attracted to someone. We aren't afraid to be vocal about our desires and are confident enough to assume you feel the same way too.

Silverity

11-02-2009, 05:51 PM

Yep, we walk up to you and tell you we want to jump your effing bones! haha, kind of kidding. Most often it's not hard to tell that an INTJ girl is attracted to someone. We aren't afraid to be vocal about our desires and are confident enough to assume you feel the same way too.

I'm also fond of very slow deliberate winks while maintaining intense eye contact so there's absolutely no mistake: Yes. I mean you. =P

Firebrand

11-07-2009, 03:42 PM

Believe me, as a guy, the grass is not greener on the other side. Guys do loads of stupid shit that ticks off most INTJ's. The social convention nonsense doesn't go away due to gender.

anumericalevil

11-07-2009, 07:32 PM

Hmm. I haven't exactly documented what people think of me, but I'll give it a try. This post will be in two parts to address two issues: Part 1 would be about my relations vis a vis other women and men and Part 2 would be about my personality as a female INTJ (aka further reading).

Warning: Very long wall of texts ahead!

Part 1:

Well, I can't say that I have a lot of problems with women only. It's just that I have a lot of problems with people in general. You can read why in spoiler part 2.

I don't usually dominate conversations with my close girlfriends; my 2 more extroverted gfs are the ones who do, so me and my other introverted friend would just wait for our turns to talk. (Sometimes it gets annoying when talking with extroverted people because they keep going on and on and they don't stop, and they don't give you a chance to speak. But anyway, that's not the point.)

When it comes to women talk, I get turned off by gossip. I get annoyed when I hear about how A bitches about how Z talks or how bitchy X is. I'm like... err so? What's the point in all of this? You're just letting go of petty frustrations. I don't do petty frustrations, but because they're my best gfs, I just bite my tongue and listen anyway. After all, sometimes I can get very juicy information about some people- you just never know with these people who have huge ass social circles!

It is a held belief that women are more gossipy than males. That is not very true; males can bitch, but only with other males! And being humans, they naturally irritate me with their irrationality.

One thing about me is that I do not like making absolute statements about things that I have not established to be true beyond reasonable doubt. I like my facts to match up with my theories, and I get irritated when people postulate off-the-wall theories based on their feelings of the situation and/or inherent bias/biased perception of the issue and try to influence other people into that mode of thinking when they do not have adequate substantiation for it. Being well aware of the herd mentality plague, I know it is inevitable that people can be easily influenced by the way certain people with influence talk.

It just ticks me off bad because it's against my principles of justice and fairness. How can people talk about something they don't know about? Why do they think it's okay to colour another person's opinion with their unsubstantiated opinion? That's what I hate about human beings, but the thing I hate most about people are their pride and hypocrisy. But let's philosophise about that another day, yes.

With regards to sexuality, I identify as a bisexual. I won't go too much into that, but I am sexually attracted to women more than men. I prefer men for their personalities; they are less emotional about things and aren't so clingy and 'intense'. They are also straightforward, a virtue I treasure. I am a very straightforward person, but of course, I do go around the bush sometimes if I calculate that I will have potential losses (e.g. to confess or not that I like a certain person?)

All of the times I've ever fallen in love with a male was because he was very funny. I just have a weakness for men who can make me laugh like nobody's business; I guess it's cause I feel happy around such people =p

I have a very masculine character, though. My digit ratio is 0.96, so one cannot really blame me for being very domineering in nature. It's just that I was born that way; God gave me this body, these set of hormones. Besides, the world could do with people with my personalities; humans are creatures that need to realise how fallible their statements and held principles can be sometimes.

I believe in the scientific method and in promoting Socratic enquiry, and I guess when it comes to emotional/mental relations with other women, they tend to back away from me and let me win arguments because they don't want to fight.

Sometimes I thought that it'd be easier being a man; I've always wanted to be a male since young, but I love my boobs too much to consider being a smelly, strong and cocky guy. Besides, if I were a guy, I'd be rather gay, and that's not something I'd want to contend with! Haha.

Part 2:

In real life, I'm pretty quiet unless engaged or provoked. That means I generally don't speak unless I have something to share or if I think that someone's statement is wrong and needs correction. Sometimes when I'm feeling cheery and perky, I'll have A LOT of things to share, like, a new anime series or my random rambles about some trivia. I'm quite the braniac and sometimes I tend to give extra information to people, most notably about the mechanism of action of things. Some people appreciate it, like my best gfs, cause they find it a learning experience (yes, I'm nerdy) but some people who are more detail/task oriented (Sensing-type people) tend to find that such information is useless because it's not 'relevant'. However my family members humour me sometimes by listening to my rambles although they don't really give two shits about it. Haha. Man I love them <3

However, that's only with people close to me. I'm pretty shy around people I'm not comfortable with, but I DO make the effort to try to socialise sometimes. When it comes to colleagues, I keep a distance from them and don't share a lot of information. To me, colleagues are colleagues. Not friends. I can be friendly with them (of course, there's a reason for that and it may not be quite noble!), but I would not have considered my ex-colleagues my 'friends'. Ironically, they shared their problems with me, probably because I was sort of 'doted on' by them (they were all in their 30s and I was the youngest there- only 20!), and I make a really good listener (I'm practicing my psychology skills as I want to be a psychologist in the future), and it's quite amazing the kind of information people would be willing to volunteer to someone they don't know very well. ._."

I also noticed though, that when I speak or talk, I tend to unintentionally 'command attention'. This is not only true in real life, but online as well, vis a vis msn conversations or while forumming. My feeling-type friend commented that I have a very strong personality and that I can appear to make people feel intimidated by the language I use, which feels 'strong' and 'curt', although I don't quite understand the mechanism of how that works. I'm still trying to figure it out. I thought a little about it, though, and I realised that I'm not very personable when it comes to arguments or debates with others. I tend to take arguments and debates 'seriously' (according to people), although to me, I just snap back into aloof and objective mode instead of relaxed and friendly mode. People tend to dislike it when I argue (except for a few thinking type personalities who enjoy seeing how I argue) because they get personal in their arguments and feel offended by my method of argument. I'm very detailed in arguments and I leave no stone unturned. A lot of the times I even go to the lengths of thinking in their shoes and forming rebuttals against my predictions of what they are going to say. It's not that I do that BECAUSE I want to win. I do that because I want to expose the truth; I want to challenge people who think that their opinion holds salt. I am the challenger of established norms and traditions; I am the iconoclast who demolishes a person's notions of what something is, and I have come to realise that the reason why people hate me is because they know that I'm right in the end and that they cannot face up to the fact that they may be wrong and that their opinion is less worthy than mine.

It's nothing personal, nor do I think it is arrogant though. It's not that I want to dominate over people or make everyone see things my way. It's just that I was born with this cursed personality that challenges everything and it undoubtedly would make people find me annoying to handle. Sometimes I feel that people are around me only because I have a sense of humour and I can write funny things and I provide online entertainment for the more reserved of my online community. So they're not friends because they want to be friends with me, but they're friends because they find me interesting.

But anyway, I have learnt to differentiate such people from those who really do care about me- I show them that I care about them too, and that's all that matters to me :)

When I'm relaxed and happy, I can really be very nice, warm and exuberant, which people sometimes mistake for extroversion. I think it's just that I have a well developed social persona because I feel a responsibility to make sure that things go along well, and the people I hang out with (from the online world) are more often than not, extremely introverted. I guess am warm and friendly when necessary because I like to be enthusiastic about good things- good feelings should always be shared! However the main reason why I am nice to people is so that they would not cringe in fear of me everytime I write a wall of text (as I am apt to do, and oftentimes it knocks them out, lol). I have quite a reputation in my online circle for being very intimidating.

gestalt

11-07-2009, 07:40 PM

INTJ women are selfish, basically?

Monsoon

11-08-2009, 09:31 AM

Hi MirrorMirror,

You have generated a really good conversation about INTJ women. Reading through many of the responses I'd just like to add that the key is being comfortable about yourself and what you have to offer. I am not just responding to you but to some of the other INTJ women when I say that for as many cruel and silly labels placed on INTJ women in school when we become established professionals we are praised for our clarity of thought and directness.

I also have to say that superficial, silly girls have the same boring, silly conversations when they are 30-40-50 years old. As they age they just become funnier and funnier to us. Some men really like these types of silly women because they present no challenge to them. That's ok. There are many men who need a smart, centered INTJ woman, too.

Just don't concern yourself with people who need to label you to make themselves feel better. Focus more on yourself and on your needs and not on what others think. It is really good to be an INTJ woman. :-)

anarchiste

11-08-2009, 10:41 AM

This is fascinating! I absolutely love this site - the responses, the wit, the humour...

The L word issue - I think because most of us are pretty closed book about our personal lives it does bring about intense speculation and gossip because I remember one of my workmates looking totally shocked when I mentioned a man's name.

I resisted the obvious "Oh you thought I was GAY?"

My boss and one particular colleague like to talk about the following: tv, books (the popular chick lit stuff), what they bought from the shops, cosmetics, teeth and when they last visited a dentist, what lipstick was I wearing (yeah like I'd tell them that secret), dieting and how great weight watchers is (OK, I am overweight and my confidence in my physical appearance is pretty low and I know it), if I am tired (I had flu), the merits of cooking sauces vs make it yourself, how many languages do I speak (a few, but I am getting really irritated by the need to discuss that)... blah blah blah

Most of the time I zone out to concentrate on my work and avoid chiming in - but my boss has a habit of stopping the team so we/she can have a gossip. They must think I have a very weak bladder because I excuse myself. By the time I have returned usually they are still yacking and I remember about some all important printing.

I find women to be more stealthy in their destruction of another female - men will focus on work related incompetencies whereas women will focus on intangible perceived incompetencies.

Last week I discovered that my boss is two faced, as my review concentrated on a personality assasination (self confidence, social skills, self esteem) as opposed to the fact I got a website up and running over a holiday period, completed and organised some technical courses and that I took control of a technical situation so that a course could run while she sat there mouth open. All the positives were left out. I was handed seven briefings on courses I should take before my personality would be acceptable. Oooh yes and she has great difficulty in working me out or what makes me tick.

They have budget issues and I think this is a precursor - as she said that she had expected me to hand in my resignation... (am I bitter and twisted... :vampire:ha ha)