Absolutely Frustrated with Dating [Archive]

coffeeloverfreak

02-10-2008, 06:30 PM

Me too, also frustrated with dating! I'm one of those perpetually single girls... my friends are all in relationships, getting married, having babies, and I'm the third wheel that they either have to uncomfortably allow to tag along, or un-invite.

Like a lot of you, I'm uncomfortable in dating situations. Flirting, small talk, "playing the game", socializing... all of them are a strain for me. I've had two serious relationships, both of which grew out of longtime friendships. One was an INTP and we were good together but just too young and had different ambitions. The other was... I'm not sure, maybe also an INTP, but more like someone who "defied type". And it fell apart because it was long-distance. But it's really tough for me to "connect" with guys, because most of them want the giggly girly-girls, and not someone like me who wants to discuss issues and relate on a whole different level.

Add to that that I don't have the built-in advantage that some girls have of letting my looks overcome my other shortcomings. Don't get me wrong, I'm not ugly or anything, but I'm not exactly the type of girl who gets hit on for looks alone. (Thank god, since I don't know how I'd deal with that... cynic that I am, I'd really never trust anyone's intentions).

Overall I think I'm most attracted to INTPs... I like the intellectual conversation, I like being with someone who's just as happy to stay in and unwind as I am, and I am attracted to their spontanaeity even if it sometimes drives me a little nuts. I'm pretty N/S balanced but I like N types better, I think. But for me, it's more about the challenge in meeting men in the first place. I'm definitely not the type to go to a bar, make a spectacle of myself, and pick up a random guy. And a lot of first dates go nowhere further for me, because guys often don't quite know what to make of me.

Alruns

02-10-2008, 08:02 PM

I have observed a friend's INTJ relationship (actually, to make things even more odd, they are lesbians). They seem to work pretty well together.

Gotta go...more to come...

Nyiah

02-10-2008, 08:13 PM

I know exactly what you mean! Wow! My close female friends (mostly Fs) are always in a relationship (although I believe they are in one just for the hell of it). I've been single for more than a year now, and I'm not frustrated with being single, I'm frustrated that I haven't been meeting guys my "type". Like coffeefreaklover, I don't really know where to meet them. I do not enjoy the bar scene, I'm allergic to alcohol, and I don't respond to flirtations. (I was vacationing in Germany over the summer with a couple of girlfriends and this guy was following us around and he asked me "I hope you come back next summer" and I replied, "Why would I do that? I'd rather see something new!" My friends figured out then that I had no hope.) If there's some kind of INTJ/INTP convention, sign me up!

JTG

02-11-2008, 12:16 AM

Most of my romantic prospects come from work. It's just the best place i've found to meet people. Then again, all of my efforts and interests end up failing, so maybe i'm not on the right track after all :P

I hate the awkward forced feeling in a bar or club - the "hey i need somebody, and i'm here to find somebody" kind of expectation.

denaria

02-11-2008, 09:42 AM

I would have though online dating was designed for INTJs and similar rare personality types. Plenty of time to establish similarity of interests, outlooks, clarity of thinking, whatever, before actually having to go face to face.

I know I was lucky to find dear husband in those long lost pre-internet days, but if I had to start looking now it would be the Web for me.

coffeeloverfreak

02-11-2008, 09:58 AM

slut poacher

02-11-2008, 04:23 PM

coffeeloverfreak

02-11-2008, 04:32 PM

is there even such a thing as an intj stalker?

I would imagine so. We stalk for rational reasons. For example, it's perfectly logical to stalk if you believe you can steal someone's identity and con them out of large sums of money, right? :)

Firelie

02-11-2008, 04:37 PM

Online dating sucks. Sorry, but it does. The internet is full of (no offense to anyone here) total fuckwits. Besides, after having weeks or months of email-only conversations, then meeting the person and realizing that, in person, you have no spark, attraction, or ease of conversation, sometimes I have to admit that the old way is better. (Whatever that is).

I usually try to keep email conversations to about a week before I bother meeting the person face-to-face, that way I don't feel like I've invested too much into it if it doesn't work out. I also try to set a time limit for the meeting, and don't let the guy pay for it (not saying you shouldn't let the guy pay if he wants, but I personally consider it rude to let someone pay and then never see them again when I decide not to pursue the relationship further).
Now, I've only met 3 people in this way, but so far none of the experiences haven't been terrible, just not my type.
I try to use craigslist for posting personal ads...you get to write as much as you please for free, so I usually post a long-ass ad about myself. I figure, if the guy can get through a lengthy ad, he at least has a good attention span and that's a start... :D

Aoiluna

02-11-2008, 04:50 PM

Ah, glad to see Im not the only one in the "single with taken F friends" situation. My only two female friends are both F types and I cant remember the last time they were single.

It is annoying, the whole dating thing. I cant flirt when I want to and end up flirting with people Im not interested in without realizing it.

I actually have an interest that is becoming avid and has lasted at least 4 weeks. Normally I would've given up by now, but this guy seems pretty compatible, so for some reason im trying harder.

Its difficult because he is just as shy as me, although I can tell hes interested. Im afraid he will lose interest, however, because im being a dumbass and not trying hard enough. Im lost...is there anyone here who is a dating pro?

coffeeloverfreak

02-11-2008, 04:58 PM

Is there anyone here who is a dating pro?

On an INTJ forum? Are you kidding?

Note to all "dating pro" types out there: This is a potential GOLD MINE.

pavman

02-11-2008, 05:14 PM

On an INTJ forum? Are you kidding?

Note to all "dating pro" types out there: This is a potential GOLD MINE.

I'm a dating pro... :D Well, I think I am...

My advice is this... stop worrying about types. Try to find someone with whom you have synergy.

In other words...find someone who flows with your intellectual, emotional, and verbal attitudes. I tend to be attracted to people who have similar work ethics, intellectual levels, attitudes toward money and relationships, etc. I also use the color test (yeah, I'm a scumbag) as you can read about in the link on this poll: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

For a long time I had no clue about flirting and all that junk. Eventually I did research and learned all the little cues women give when they're interested. I'm sure there's men's cues out there as well, but seeing as I only care about women...

It also helps to study alt.fastseduction or whatnot if you're a guy and have bad game, but don't use it to get women into bed...use it to foster relationships and find someone you can spend the rest of your life with [of course, this all depends on your goals, age, etc etc]. For an easy place to start check out:
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I hate giving away secrets, but this stuff does work, for the most part. But its for the guys, not sure if there's something for the ladies (I figure if you like a guy, and you're moderately attractive, all you have to do is start flirting a bit and he'll take interest if he has it...although I'm a big fan of the direct approach, as it makes things a lot clearer to me, but to each his or her own).

To get a really interesting view on this, go watch Pickup Artist, Season 1. It was pretty good (and gave away WAY too much). Hitch also gave away some secrets...its kind of annoying when all this stuff is just put out there. Gives me more competition :( And I ain't the hottest guy in the room, that's fer shizzle.

slut poacher

02-11-2008, 05:19 PM

a dating-pro has no reason to be in here, unless he/she is dispensing advice.

pavman

02-11-2008, 05:20 PM

...Im afraid he will lose interest, however, because im being a dumbass and not trying hard enough. Im lost...is there anyone here who is a dating pro?

Ah...Aoiluna... well, if I were you, take it up a notch. Take some initiative and invite him over for dinner, offer a backrub, etc. Backrubs usually have a high probability of at least getting to first base. :) Now if you're too young to do those sorts of things, just show him interest. Be interested in what he's into and give him your attention. Show him that you care more for him than most others and that he's important to you. Each person/relationship is different, so not sure how you might approach this.

For instance, if I had a friend who invited me over to dinner, I would take that as a cue as interest. Now if this is something you do all the time, find something else that is special that he might like, and that smacks him on the head with a hey buddy, I'm not just hangin out with you to be your buddy here...

I mean, sex is one way to go, but sex isn't the best option, IMHO. Perhaps you make the first move with a kiss...look at his lips alot, lean in close so he can close the deal... make the moment happen that everyone thinks just happens naturally, and you'll get him. Unless he's gay. Then I can't help ya.

Also, work on that seductive voice. Its hard to describe, but its usually a lower tone, and is slower, smoother...just seductive. I can do it, and recognize it, but can't really describe it as anything but breathier... its hard to put into words. You'll know it when you hear it/use it.

Nyiah

02-11-2008, 07:09 PM

is there even such a thing as an intj stalker?

The thought of that made me chuckle. I can't imagine any guy thinking to himself "oh baby, I need me one of those INTJ chicks!"

Nyiah added to this post, 18 minutes and 9 seconds later...

My advice is this... stop worrying about types. Try to find someone with whom you have synergy.

That is good advice, but that's what got me thinking about personality typing. For years, I wasn't aware of the types and I believe I was involved with guys just because they were interested in me. When I analyzed what bothered me about them, it was definitely something about their personality. After researching more about the types I could pinpoint which personality types I favored.

But, your way is much more simple. :P

AgentofGaming

02-11-2008, 07:36 PM

The thought of that made me chuckle. I can't imagine any guy thinking to himself "oh baby, I need me one of those INTJ chicks!"
Whoa... that sounds scary, good thing I'm a guy...
I've actually welcomed stalkers... before. Sometimes I like them for their Internet prowess.

That is good advice, but that's what got me thinking about personality typing. For years, I wasn't aware of the types and I believe I was involved with guys just because they were interested in me. When I analyzed what bothered me about them, it was definitely something about their personality. After researching more about the types I could pinpoint which personality types I favored.

But, your way is much more simple. :P
Well I read something somewhere opposites attract the most, but then you'll realize it's hard to get a long with them. Same types, you will notice the same flaws you have but more so, then they concluded regardless it all takes work.

Who would have guessed humans need to be worked with...

Nyiah

02-11-2008, 08:35 PM

Whoa... that sounds scary, good thing I'm a guy...
I've actually welcomed stalkers... before. Sometimes I like them for their Internet prowess.
How do you welcome a stalker? As for internet stalking, I've nev--okay maybe once, or twice. I don't remember... :rolleyes:

Well I read something somewhere opposites attract the most, but then you'll realize it's hard to get a long with them. Same types, you will notice the same flaws you have but more so, then they concluded regardless it all takes work.

Who would have guessed humans need to be worked with...

Sigh. Is there hope for any of us?? <goes back to internet dating site>

AgentofGaming

02-11-2008, 08:46 PM

How do you welcome a stalker? As for internet stalking, I've nev--okay maybe once, or twice. I don't remember... :rolleyes:
Try stalking me and you'll see.
I have "welcome stalkers to my portfolio" in several places.

Sigh. Is there hope for any of us?? <goes back to internet dating site>
Nope, no hope, especially for me, maintaining relations is work. I've had odd tendencies to be annoyed by having friends but yet I want friends...
I tend to like introverted types more too, which makes it worse. Extroverts seem out of control to me + the social envy.

Sites? well certainly those don't work for me. Maybe an interesting chat or two along with some funny laughs and attracting a couple of stalkers.

Antares

02-12-2008, 12:09 AM

Overall I get along best with INTJs and INTPs. Anyone else feels like this? Or I don't know, maybe it's just a "me" thing. :P

I like my fellow Introverted Rationals :D But I do have extroverted rational friends, and friends from all four temperaments. My first best friend was NF, but at that time, we were eight and our T/F preferences were less defined. In our early years, she'd seem like the INTJ and I'd be the INFJ, but now our roles reversed. My other best friends are all thinkers (INTJ and ESTJ). I had a relationship with a NF and it ended horribly.

Online dating sucks. Sorry, but it does. The internet is full of (no offense to anyone here) total fuckwits. Besides, after having weeks or months of email-only conversations, then meeting the person and realizing that, in person, you have no spark, attraction, or ease of conversation, sometimes I have to admit that the old way is better. (Whatever that is).

I agree. I've been hit on by guys AND girls who thought they were hot, but in reality, ... I won't mention it. I've been hit on by a lesbian when I stressed on my profile that I'm straight and not looking! Then she presumed to ask me if I finger myself. Smartass people indeed.

Uytuun

02-12-2008, 03:39 AM

I do suck at this whole romance thing. The tension makes me sick - physically. Pff.

thod

02-12-2008, 04:25 AM

Llen

02-12-2008, 04:21 PM

It is annoying, the whole dating thing. I cant flirt when I want to and end up flirting with people Im not interested in without realizing it.

Same thing here. I can't stand when that happens because I'm not trying to give mixed signals. For some reason, I'm the most charming around unattractive men. :thumbsdown:This has brought endless strife in my life.

Switch the First and last letters. So for an INTJ go for an ENTP.

You want an E because they will handle the social side and drag you along. You want a P because they are laid back. Two J's would just argue over everything. Because your are both NT's you will get along.

Interesting. But I would also prefer an I because he would flirt with other women less and stay in the house more (making him more available for sex...and conversation I suppose.)

AgentofGaming

02-12-2008, 04:47 PM

I also use the color test (yeah, I'm a scumbag) as you can read about in the link on this poll: To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Whoa... I never thought you were using us that way... you scumbag!;D
and I thought you had a completely random curiosity about colours...

It also helps to study alt.fastseduction or whatnot if you're a guy and have bad game, but don't use it to get women into bed...use it to foster relationships and find someone you can spend the rest of your life with [of course, this all depends on your goals, age, etc etc]. For an easy place to start check out:
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
...
Hitch also gave away some secrets...its kind of annoying when all this stuff is just put out there. Gives me more competition And I ain't the hottest guy in the room, that's fer shizzle.

Hmm why do topics like these lead to links directed to that weird sites which have dishonourable motives like being a "Pickup Artist"
I sort of don't really agree with changing the way we behave to suit meeting people because then in a way you've become someone who you aren't.
I just find it better to solve life's problems with willpower than a set of instructions.

Don't worry I'm not here to give out your "secrets" for reasons above said.
Besides I tend to not to like people who can be seduced.

I do suck at this whole romance thing. The tension makes me sick - physically. Pff.
Oh the angst of not knowing... if only we were telepathic.
Well a way of removing the angst is to think that no one would ever have intentions, thereby solving all problems until they arrive.

Interesting. But I would also prefer an I because he would stay in the house more
That sounds like what conservative men used to say about women..

Think of the cons though...what if you'd have problems getting him out of the house? like he'd be afraid of going out.

Mandrake

02-12-2008, 06:38 PM

I am new to the dating scene since I am 18 but when meeting other people and specially of the opposite sex, I usually ignore any ideas about what type my peers may be. I much rather learn how they are and try to play their flirting game for the sake of opening the door towards their feelings.

Its surprising how you may get along with people you wouldn't consider to get along with.

Aoiluna

02-12-2008, 08:51 PM

Ah...Aoiluna... well, if I were you, take it up a notch. Take some initiative and invite him over for dinner, offer a backrub, etc. Backrubs usually have a high probability of at least getting to first base. :) Now if you're too young to do those sorts of things, just show him interest. Be interested in what he's into and give him your attention. Show him that you care more for him than most others and that he's important to you. Each person/relationship is different, so not sure how you might approach this.

For instance, if I had a friend who invited me over to dinner, I would take that as a cue as interest. Now if this is something you do all the time, find something else that is special that he might like, and that smacks him on the head with a hey buddy, I'm not just hangin out with you to be your buddy here...

I mean, sex is one way to go, but sex isn't the best option, IMHO. Perhaps you make the first move with a kiss...look at his lips alot, lean in close so he can close the deal... make the moment happen that everyone thinks just happens naturally, and you'll get him. Unless he's gay. Then I can't help ya.

Also, work on that seductive voice. Its hard to describe, but its usually a lower tone, and is slower, smoother...just seductive. I can do it, and recognize it, but can't really describe it as anything but breathier... its hard to put into words. You'll know it when you hear it/use it.

I appreciate your advice immensely, but seeing as though I have not spent any time with him outside of class and most of what youve suggested is too forward for my inept social skills.

I think ill go with the 'hey can you help me with this?...' and eventually work towards getting a study date. It helps the situation that he is in 4 of my classes and I see him twice a day. And hes in my lab group. I have much potential im not using, damn me.

iamnotspock

02-13-2008, 08:06 PM

I've been hit on by a lesbian when I stressed on my profile that I'm straight and not looking! Then she presumed to ask me if I finger myself. Smartass people indeed.

Aren't you like 14? I think you could get her arrested...

iamnotspock added to this post, 4 minutes and 56 seconds later...

I'm a 25 year old INTJ female and I can't maintain a relationship, or start one (I can't recognize flirting or know how to flirt back for that matter). I've had maybe 5 relationships (the longest being 1.5 yrs w/ an INFP) and I ended all of them pretty badly

I found this amusing. 5 relationships by age 25? I wonder what the avg. would be for an INTJ male of this age around here. Maybe 0.5?

Clearly you *can* start relationships -- you started five of them. And you *can* maintain them -- one lasted 1.5 years.

Valentine's Day makes everyone miserable. But take a rational look at things and you'll see they aren't so bad!

Nyiah

02-13-2008, 08:52 PM

I found this amusing. 5 relationships by age 25? I wonder what the avg. would be for an INTJ male of this age around here. Maybe 0.5?

Clearly you *can* start relationships -- you started five of them. And you *can* maintain them -- one lasted 1.5 years.

Valentine's Day makes everyone miserable. But take a rational look at things and you'll see they aren't so bad!

Hmm, I definitely was not the one to start the relationships and they certainly weren't healthy. I'm glad I'm learning from those mistakes though. I don't want to be in a relationship where I know I can't fall in love with the guy. Yes, you're right, things aren't so bad. Fairly happy being single, but recently there's been this odd, uncomfortable pain, oh god what is that? I think it's... gasp, loneliness...and I'm just trying to shake it off.

This forum is amazing though. Reading through the threads is a lot of fun and I've been thinking "that's what I would say!" every time I read through here. It's almost like a conversation with myself except, well, better. It's turning into a substitute for my non-existent social life. :P

iamnotspock

02-13-2008, 09:03 PM

Fairly happy being single, but recently there's been this odd, uncomfortable pain, oh god what is that? I think it's... gasp, loneliness...

Hey, at least you have a good sense of humor ;-)

A forum like this *does* feel like a substitute social life, but I wonder, is that the danger of it? I mean, we all know how the story of Narcissus ends (drowning in a lake, in love with himself).

In my case, it is social anxiety which is the problem that must be solved. Otherwise I'll end up in the next convenient relationship that is a band-aid for loneliness but not a good match overall. And yet, here I type...

Nyiah

02-13-2008, 09:25 PM

Hey, at least you have a good sense of humor ;-)
Oh yes, I entertain myself pretty well. You should hear the jokes in my head, they're hilarious.

A forum like this *does* feel like a substitute social life, but I wonder, is that the danger of it? I mean, we all know how the story of Narcissus ends (drowning in a lake, in love with himself).
You've pretty much hit exactly what I'm worried about. I know I'm substituting this forum for a social life. After reading the forum for ~2 hours straight yesterday and hitting the refresh button, waiting for replies, I got that same feeling that I would get after a big, loud party. That need to retreat back to my hole. That's when I knew it felt like a substitute.

In my case, it is social anxiety which is the problem that must be solved. Otherwise I'll end up in the next convenient relationship that is a band-aid for loneliness but not a good match overall. And yet, here I type...
Yep, that's what happens to me after that pang of loneliness, settling into another relationship, but no, not this time. Cross your fingers! :X

iamnotspock

02-13-2008, 09:30 PM

Yeah. I knew I was doing it when there *was* a big loud party and I was sitting here for 2 hrs.

I will cross my fingers for you for sure. But for me, I need something more powerful. Some kind of coach or support group to make me go out and get a life, you know? Instead of trying to get it all from a GF and online. But not sure where to find that.

Nyiah

02-13-2008, 09:59 PM

Hmmm, well, my two best female friends (one's an EF and the other an IF) were my "coach"/"support group". They dragged me (almost literally) to parties/clubs. I remember cringing every time they introduced me to someone new. Then they gave me some alcohol, which definitely did the trick and made me relax. But then I found out I was allergic to alcohol. Anyways, if you have some extroverted friends and tequila, you too can be cured from social anxiety!

*The three of us moved away from each other because of school, so now I'm back to where I'm most comfortable: the Interwebs.

iMiki

02-13-2008, 10:04 PM

I was in a "relationship" once though it lasted only 2 weeks. I didn't really considered him as a boyfriend. I think he was an ESFP. I don't know what was on my mind. I think that reason why I had this "relationship" was because of the fact I was so pressured and annoyed by that guy (who was stalking me) that I just decided to give in. I keep rejecting him at first since my parents (the typical Asian parents) told me I can't date until I finished college. I kinda liked him too (I don't know why) so I guess curiosity was part of it too.

Anyway, to the point: He said I was too boring. Well, he was way too affectionate. I only showed my feelings for him through the Internet. I tell but don't show. I don't show any affections whatsoever. Maybe, it's not that I'm boring. Maybe it's more of being cold, though I don't consider it being cold. He also pressured me too be more affectionate. I tried like holding hands but it didn't work out. He was going too fast. He keeps saying "I love you" and I just say "Yeah yeah whatever..." because I feel like he's wasting those words. He doesn't know the definition of "I love you". My style is that I take things slowly until things will get intense.

I don't think I'll ever date an extrovert. I feel humiliated sometimes with my extroverted friends and I don't like that.

(I regret everything. I found out he's a liar and a cheater. That jerk. I'm so mad at him. I think the only reason he fell for me was because I was cute/beautiful. He keeps calling me that everyday. He also told me to change after the break up. For example, he said I have to fit in with the people. Stupid extrovert, I don't want to be a follower like him. I want to be unique. Oh yeah, give me back my kiss! He forced me to kiss him. Stupid me!)

Agile

02-13-2008, 10:16 PM

Switch the First and last letters. So for an INTJ go for an ENTP.

You want an E because they will handle the social side and drag you along. You want a P because they are laid back. Two J's would just argue over everything. Because your are both NT's you will get along.

I have INTP friends and I enjoy our conversations. But they are on an intellectual level, there is no affection between us, not even sure if we like each other. For a romantic involvement I would be looking for a more emotional reaction. INTPs are easy going but try to get to the core of them and you will find an iron shell protecting their psyche.

What do you mean by argue?

An NTJ (especially an I more than an E) would know the difference between discussion and argument, and tend to debate rather than quarrel, IMO.

Can't say I know I whole bunch about the types, but I do know myself. I know that laid back people tend to be pop culture types, programmed by media and trendy values to the point that they can be hardly counted on for an intelligent opinion on much, mostly they regurgitate media. Reminds me of the quote below:

"A teenager has breakfast, then goes to a store to buy the latest CD
of a new band. The kid thinks he lives in a modern moment. But who has
defined what a 'band' is? Who has defined 'a store'? Who defined a
'teenager'? . . . To say nothing of all the rest, the kid's entire
social setting—family, school, clothing, transportation, and
government. . . . None of this has been decided in the present. Most
of it was decided hundreds of years ago. . . . This kid is sitting on
top of a mountain that is the past. And he never notices it. He is
ruled by what he never sees, never thinks about, doesn't know."

That said, I appreciate your post, and that you included a rationale, and your experience. I will definitely look into this.

thod

02-14-2008, 03:25 AM

What do you mean by argue?

An NTJ (especially an I more than an E) would know the difference between discussion and argument, and tend to debate rather than quarrel, IMO.

The idea of the 50/50 relationship is a nice story that couple tell each other. In practice it doesn't work. Such a situation leads to a stalemate. For a resolution one side must dominate in the end. Couples tend to have areas of expertise with one partner tending to make the decisions in that area and the other simply going along.

The advantage of an J-P coupling is that the discussion takes places but the P is happy to let the J make the plans to realize the solution. With a J-J solution the debate extends beyond the desired objective to the details of how to achieve it. The P will come up with lots of potential solutions the J will never see. You gain more by having the wider range of skills than having 2 that are exactly the same.

I know that laid back people tend to be pop culture types, programmed by media and trendy values to the point that they can be hardly counted on for an intelligent opinion on much, mostly they regurgitate media.

Not realy most of the INTP's I know are hard as gravel. They don't notice ephemera and if you contradict one of their held opinions you are subject to a machine gun attack of data and correlations showing why you are wrong

Llen

02-14-2008, 10:30 AM

That sounds like what conservative men used to say about women..

Think of the cons though...what if you'd have problems getting him out of the house? like he'd be afraid of going out.

Heh, well it's not as if I want a man barefoot and cooking in the kitchen while "mindin' the kids." I simply want someone who's ok with quiet evenings at home.

SeaCzar

02-14-2008, 12:55 PM

Opposites attract........divorce lawyers!!!

pavman

02-14-2008, 02:06 PM

I do suck at this whole romance thing. The tension makes me sick - physically. Pff.

Tension is good...especially if there's electricity in the air. I tend to think of this when a relationship is going well, but hasn't progressed past a certain point. In fact, I really enjoy this phase, because once you bite that proverbial bullet, things aren't quite as exciting.

pavman added to this post, 1 minutes and 44 seconds later...

There I go again, responding to a post on page 1 without checking out 2... :( when will I ever learn...

AgentofGaming

02-14-2008, 03:32 PM

I found this amusing. 5 relationships by age 25? I wonder what the avg. would be for an INTJ male of this age around here. Maybe 0.5?

haha, you give credit for a 0.5...
hmm I think I made a life committment to someone in Gr. 1, whom I never saw again
I guess that will be my 0.5

Heh, well it's not as if I want a man barefoot and cooking in the kitchen while "mindin' the kids." I simply want someone who's ok with quiet evenings at home.
Well I didn't exactly mean that since I don't even know if houseguys exist.
Interesting you mention quiet evenings. These days everyone works and for long hours. Solitude is getting rare as work invades into people's breaks.

I don't think I'll ever date an extrovert. I feel humiliated sometimes with my extroverted friends and I don't like that.
Some extroverts are evil especially with the "Why can't you be like everybody else?" or "why are you so weird?" or "Why would you find talking to people hard?". They seem to imply something is wrong with you.
That's why I've learned to stay away from "ES" types, they are very dangerous.

Uytuun

02-14-2008, 03:42 PM

Tension is good...especially if there's electricity in the air. I tend to think of this when a relationship is going well, but hasn't progressed past a certain point. In fact, I really enjoy this phase, because once you bite that proverbial bullet, things aren't quite as exciting.

Yeah, but it makes me act like a complete idiot and...when do you know the tension is felt by the other person too? I mean...somewhere deep down I just *know* it is, but then again, do I really? It's driving me crazy with doubt and at the same time I'm calm and convinced of the outcome.

pavman

02-14-2008, 04:18 PM

I realized something about this thread when I saw it pop up in new posts... it has the wrong title...

It should read Absolutely Frustrated with Women!!!

pavman added to this post, 11 minutes and 40 seconds later...

Yeah, but it makes me act like a complete idiot and...when do you know the tension is felt by the other person too? I mean...somewhere deep down I just *know* it is, but then again, do I really? It's driving me crazy with doubt and at the same time I'm calm and convinced of the outcome.

I totally agree and understand. But realize...if they're interested, they don't see you as being crazy.... just keep it kewl. And remember, you have plenty of time. No rush to delve too deep too fast. Actually, I just realized you say crazy with doubt. Well, take charge...find out if the guy is interested.... that's what I normally do. But then I'm a guy, and I can't stand having something unsettled.

Unfortunately, I've recently given up on the aloof INTP. Screw her. I hate having to do all the work, and she must not be interested, otherwise she wouldn't be so aloof in communication. Sh!t, I thought at minimum she'd try to help repair the friendship we once had.... Unless that's just how INTPs are...which would annoy the hell out of me anyway. Plus, based on her attitude towards me taking a 180, I think she's got mental health problems.... so fook it!

Perhaps you should brush up on male interest cues. I'm sure there have to be some body language cues that can back up the electricity. Let's face it... if you're making out, he's interested ;o)

And the same goes for guys who have no clue...brush up on the I'm interested cues that women give...

iamnotspock

02-14-2008, 04:41 PM

Pay attention, Pavman... the original poster was talking about dating *men*

iamnotspock added to this post, 11 minutes and 52 seconds later...

I was in a "relationship" once though it lasted only 2 weeks. I didn't really considered him as a boyfriend. I think he was an ESFP. I don't know what was on my mind. I think that reason why I had this "relationship" was because of the fact I was so pressured and annoyed by that guy (who was stalking me) that I just decided to give in. I keep rejecting him at first since my parents (the typical Asian parents) told me I can't date until I finished college. I kinda liked him too (I don't know why) so I guess curiosity was part of it too.

Anyway, to the point: He said I was too boring. Well, he was way too affectionate. I only showed my feelings for him through the Internet. I tell but don't show. I don't show any affections whatsoever. Maybe, it's not that I'm boring. Maybe it's more of being cold, though I don't consider it being cold. He also pressured me too be more affectionate. I tried like holding hands but it didn't work out. He was going too fast. He keeps saying "I love you" and I just say "Yeah yeah whatever..." because I feel like he's wasting those words. He doesn't know the definition of "I love you". My style is that I take things slowly until things will get intense.

I don't think I'll ever date an extrovert. I feel humiliated sometimes with my extroverted friends and I don't like that.

(I regret everything. I found out he's a liar and a cheater. That jerk. I'm so mad at him. I think the only reason he fell for me was because I was cute/beautiful. He keeps calling me that everyday. He also told me to change after the break up. For example, he said I have to fit in with the people. Stupid extrovert, I don't want to be a follower like him. I want to be unique. Oh yeah, give me back my kiss! He forced me to kiss him. Stupid me!)

Don't feel too bad, this is a common story. Girls give in to the lying jerks who pursue them at an age when the good guys are too shy to compete. My ex (Chinese) won't date Chinese guys anymore after a much worse experience.

However, I met a lot of pretty Asian girls in HS and college who only dated Asian guys. I think that makes it easier for the Asian guys to be jerks since they have a captive group. Later in life some of those girls married non-Asian guys, so maybe they eventually became more open-minded and stood up to their parents.

P.S. Stay away from anyone who tosses around "I Love You" inside of two weeks. They are either lying which makes them a jerk or they mean it which makes them crazy.

Uytuun

02-14-2008, 05:03 PM

Well, cues, I probably don't give off the clearest clues either. But yeah, I'll poke myself to actually undertake something.

pavman

02-14-2008, 05:29 PM

Pay attention, Pavman... the original poster was talking about dating *men*...

Well DUH, but we all know the only problem in relationships come from women! :p

INTJ women excluded (there, ya happy....) :irked:

pavman added to this post, 4 minutes and 40 seconds later...

P.S. Stay away from anyone who tosses around "I Love You" inside of two weeks. They are either lying which makes them a jerk or they mean it which makes them crazy.

Actually, stay even further away from the women who ask you to tell them this right before you hit that sh!t for the first time... OMG... headcase. But you know... some guys'll do it anyway... we don't really have many scruples when the chick is half-naked in the back of our car and trying to get us to appease their ego before we...well, you can figure it out.

And once said, it becomes so easy to just keep saying it, even if you don't mean it.

Yep, I'm an evil rotten scoundrel. But I never said I wasn't :thumbsup: :cool:

Lastly...
I once got some wisdom from an older guy at a party...he was in his late 60s maybe mid-70s... he said the difference between these days and the old days is this:
Men always tried to get it in the old days, say nice things, buy nice things, same thing as they do now... but the women wouldn't give in to them. Now-a-days, women give in. *CLUE*

AgentofGaming

02-14-2008, 08:42 PM

Perhaps you should brush up on male interest cues. I'm sure there have to be some body language cues that can back up the electricity. Let's face it... if you're making out, he's interested ;o)

And the same goes for guys who have no clue...brush up on the I'm interested cues that women give...
How? :huh: It's not possible for me to understand people.

So does the electricity above include applying voltages and passing currents through people? because that's all I know how to do. :p

Don't feel too bad, this is a common story. Girls give in to the lying jerks who pursue them at an age when the good guys are too shy to compete. My ex (Chinese) won't date Chinese guys anymore after a much worse experience.

However, I met a lot of pretty Asian girls in HS and college who only dated Asian guys. I think that makes it easier for the Asian guys to be jerks since they have a captive group. Later in life some of those girls married non-Asian guys, so maybe they eventually became more open-minded and stood up to their parents.

P.S. Stay away from anyone who tosses around "I Love You" inside of two weeks. They are either lying which makes them a jerk or they mean it which makes them crazy.
Wow I never knew it'd be easier for me to be a jerk, maybe I should... huh?
Trust me "Asian girls" can be just as mean.

Oh for Chinese people if your age is less than 12 I don't recommend standing up to your parents.

Lastly...
I once got some wisdom from an older guy at a party...he was in his late 60s maybe mid-70s... he said the difference between these days and the old days is this:
Men always tried to get it in the old days, say nice things, buy nice things, same thing as they do now... but the women wouldn't give in to them. Now-a-days, women give in. *CLUE*
So now bribery is the way... intriguing.

Poprocks

02-15-2008, 01:56 AM

This is an interesting thread. It's nice to see there are other INTJs out there that have trouble with dating. It's ESPECIALLY nice to see the point of view of the women! Honestly, being the sometimes-opinionated-jerk I am, I have tended to think to myself, "Oh, dating is so much easier for the women because they can have men approach them!"

But recently, I was approached by a woman and did not enjoy my date with her at all. Funny how it took me THAT long to empathize with women in their dating difficulties! Or maybe it's NOT funny - this is an INTJ forum, after all!

Honestly, I think the biggest problem for me is initiating a romantic relationship - namely, PLAYING THE GAME! I DESPISE asking women out because it always seems like such a freaking game all the time. I find it to be among the least enjoyable tasks possible. But I do REALLY enjoy spending time with people in general because I love a good discussion.

So, that's why I've taken some advice from this forum and have checked out personal ads and stuff. The idea of a woman explicitly saying "I WANT YOU TO ASK ME OUT!" and giving an overview of what she wants really appeals to me.

On a final side-note though, have you guys checked out sites like plentyoffish.com? There are plenty of women on there, to be sure, but as soon as I see that "Interested in: Friendship" I know there are two things going on: (a) she is lying (with or without knowing it), and (b) she likes (or accepts) playing the game. Two qualities I don't like in women. I mean, the message I get is this: "Yes, I am on an online dating site but NO, you can't expect me to want to DATE people!" -- a self-contradictory message that frustrates me to the point of... extreme frustration! I just can't empathize with that kind of mentality.

*sigh* what's an INTJ to do? :P

pavman

02-15-2008, 08:39 AM

Hmm why do topics like these lead to links directed to that weird sites which have dishonourable motives like being a "Pickup Artist" I sort of don't really agree with changing the way we behave to suit meeting people because then in a way you've become someone who you aren't.

Because it works. And we're open to learning new systems. And, let's face it, when you meet that girl you absolutely can't live without and she gives you the cold shoulder enough times, you're gonna come back and learn how to be a PUA and then...like magic, you'll find the next girl (or maybe you'll work the one you wanted), and you'll get her. Think of it as the express way to open the door to the relationship...instead of it taking forever, you close the deal quicker and have more enjoying moments...

Ironically, when I first read about it I was like screw that.... same type of reaction. However, after discussing it amongst a number of folks, I don't see why it can't be a tool to help us progress with our introverted nature. I mean, if it works, it just means the person was interested anyway. Its not really magic...

Besides I tend to not to like people who can be seduced. ... I just find it better to solve life's problems with willpower than a set of instructions.

Well, this is huge INTJism... people/relationships can't really be solved. In fact, have you ever tried to figure out what was going on in women's minds?! OMG... its really hard. And I must say, they're nutz ;D

pavman added to this post, 30 minutes and 20 seconds later...

How? :huh: It's not possible for me to understand people.

So does the electricity above include applying voltages and passing currents through people? because that's all I know how to do. :p

So now bribery is the way... intriguing.

LOL

There's cues that women give when they're interested.

Basic cues off the top of my head:
She plays with her hair when looking at you (that's probably the easiest).
She touches you.
Spreading of her legs when she's sitting across from you (usually you won't see this but hey...and I know it sounds kind of gross, but its all subconscious).
She looks at your lips frequently (ie she wants to kiss you, ya dolt!)
... there's others, but these are some of the ones I remember. The lips thing and the hair thing I've found to be the best clues.

This article is for cues men give (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

Don't know how accurate it is, and it looks annoyingly female oriented, but have at it ladies!

Here's a whackier one for men (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), but you might like it, AgentofGaming, as it uses really technical language.

I prefer this article (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) a bit more, as it goes into more depth. However, it was written by a woman, and so its not as efficient as it could be. :thumbsup:

And finally...a fascinating study synopsis on how women use men's facial cues to determine relationship length (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

Good luck my man, welcome to the world of baseball!

coffeeloverfreak

02-15-2008, 08:44 AM

Pavman, that's all nonsense. That kind of advice will only give you the cues of women who are of a certain type, namely, the blatantly-obvious, seductive, game-playing type. Maybe that's the type you're attracted to, who knows?

But I think that a lot of men who have trouble getting dates think they have trouble because they're all trying to pick up the same kind of woman. You know, the over-obvious, bombshell, sex kitten type. The kind they have in mind when they use the collective term "women". They probably walk right past plenty of interesting, attractive, fantastic women, simply because they don't fit into the "type" who will play with their hair or lick their lips or spread their legs.

And for women who are a bit shy, or INTJ-ish, or who simply don't like to flirt or aren't comfortable sending those kinds of signals, it's even tougher, because men are trained to look for them.

If you don't want to end up with a woman who's a game-player, why look for one when you're trying to get a date?

pavman

02-15-2008, 09:06 AM

Pavman, that's all nonsense. That kind of advice will only give you the cues of women who are of a certain type, namely, the blatantly-obvious, seductive, game-playing type. Maybe that's the type you're attracted to, who knows?

...

And for women who are a bit shy, or INTJ-ish, or who simply don't like to flirt or aren't comfortable sending those kinds of signals, it's even tougher, because men are trained to look for them.

These are subconscious cues. Every woman gives them off to the men they're interested in. Trust me. Not every cue, but certain cues, and, as I said before, women tend to give off the play with the hair while talking with the man most frequently, from what I've observed...followed closely by the lips thing. Usually when you get that, you're in. And touching is a big thing too, although those might be more game-player types, but some personalities touch more than others.

And as for men being trained for them... MCFLY! HELLO MCFLY! Men are not trained for the cues. Otherwise, AgentofGaming wouldn't need to learn how to spot the cues.... I'm just tryin to help here. I can go back to my own universe and not try to help, but then folks won't improve and they'll still be complaining about this 10 years from now. I used to be like AoG, but I did the research and started observing human behavior, and I've concluded that not only do the cues work, but so does the PUA stuff at that site I linked to before.

Whether or not you want to try, is up to you. Relationships can sometimes cause more problems than they are worth...

thod

02-15-2008, 11:30 AM

Yep the rules on the pick up artist sites do work. I thought you guys liked to formulate things into rules where possible. Of course they wont work if the target knows she is being manipulated, nor will they work in all cases.

I know a guy that teaches psychology and is into NLP in a big way. He uses it as a pick up method with great success. Not everyone is as guarded as they are on this forum and often they are not too bright either. He isn't doing anything wrong, he is out for a one night stand. The girls in that club are there to pick up men too, he makes sure it is him and not some other chump.

Uytuun

02-15-2008, 01:48 PM

Hmm, some of these things are very true, others - like touching - you seem to have more control over and are less reliable.

I'm totally guilty of doing the merriment thing and generally looking constantly...out of the corner of my eye etc. :D And also the lifting of the eyebrows and changing the tone of my voice.

Pretty cool. So INTJs can flirt...subconsciously...thank you mother nature. :p

paradoxes

02-15-2008, 02:09 PM

Because it works. And we're open to learning new systems. And, let's face it, when you meet that girl you absolutely can't live without and she gives you the cold shoulder enough times, you're gonna come back and learn how to be a PUA and then...like magic, you'll find the next girl (or maybe you'll work the one you wanted), and you'll get her.

Let me add one more vote of support for this point that pavman raises. As a hard-core INTJ, I used to be completely of the mindset that under no conditions would I ever play games in order to get girls. I wanted someone who appreciated me for who I am, and I assumed that when I met such a person I would not need to follow these absurdly illogical rules to pursue a relationship with her.

Well guess what... I fell completely in love with one of my close friends, an INxP. She understood me better than anyone I had ever met in my entire life. Yet this brilliant, witty girl had overlooked me romantically, instead dating 2 other guys at our college. After spending years of being a close friend to her and never understanding why she wasn't interested in me, I suddenly became infatuated with another girl for a month or 2. When I stopped paying attention to my INxP, I noticed signals that she suddenly was interested in me romantically. At the time, I didn't realize the causal connection between my ignoring her and her sexual interest in me, since it made no logical sense to me that my LACK of pursuing someone could cause them to want me. Then one night we finally hooked up for the first time, and had a 1.5 month long fling. During this relationship I became completely infatuated with her (wayyyy more than before), and I must have overwhelmed her with my intensity. You know the classic INTJ intensity applied to understanding how the world works - that whole complicated apparatus became trained on one person, which I can now see was a horrible idea. When I noticed her becoming withdrawn, I pursued her even further, until finally she told me that she wasn't sure she thought of me in a romantic way.

I became completely devastated, and spent the next couple months depressed as hell - wondering if I would ever find someone else who would excite me the way that she did. So after weeks of googling everything I could find related to sexual attraction, love, relationships, etc. (haha such an INTJ way of dealing with this crap), I finally began to come to new conclusions about this aspect of human existence. I realized that I had it ENTIRELY WRONG my entire life, and that if I had just figured this out earlier I never would have run into these problems. And like pavman, I'm only telling you guys about this so that you don't have to learn it the hard way, like I did. But I also know that like me, you guys are stubborn and arrogant and will probably only learn this when the world hits you over the head with it, and you realize that your pre-existing systems for understanding romance/sexuality just do not work in the real world.

OF COURSE in an ideal world we wouldn't have to play any games to get what we want. But unfortunately, the world doesn't work a certain way just because we want it to. The fact is that Romantic Love by its very nature is not a logical kind of thing, and this is why INTJs have so many problems with it.

If you want to know how my story worked out: since I couldn't accept losing the only girl I've ever loved - I tried improving my social/romantic skills by reading a lot of Pick-Up artist type websites, and trying to synthesize my findings into a coherent system. And then I tried them out, and I was amazed at how well it worked. I started dating a very attractive ESFJ, which was great because: 1) Despite the lack of intellectual connection, she was a ton of fun. 2)It greatly boosted my ego and self-confidence. 3) It actually made my INxP jealous! So after breaking up with the ESFJ after a month and a half, I was able to get back together with the INxP for one night... but then things became complicated again and we're not talking as much. But I've learned my lesson now - do not pursue her when she withdraws, do not spend too much time on her when she doesn't reciprocate, do not act like I am desperate and I need her in order to be happy. I.e. stop all the nice-guy methods of getting girls, and learn from the guys who do it naturally.

So maybe I haven't gotten her back yet.. but at least I'm doing all that I can to improve my chances with her. And if I don't get her, then at least I won't repeat the same mistakes with the next girl I really care about...

JTG

02-15-2008, 03:14 PM

Pavman seems to me to have a well expressed E and S... if you know what i mean :P

There's a difference between wanting to figure out a way to get that person you've known and liked forever, and looking for an "easy way" to fast gratification by playing on people's inner workings.

If anything, knowing what makes people tick makes me less likely to use that in a manipulative way to get what i want. If i have to present myself a certain way to get somebody's attention, either 1) if i'm looking for a relationship and will be irritated over time, having to pretend to be something i'm not to keep her interested, or 2) i'm just putting on a more attractive disguise to have some fun. Been there, don't see the point.

To me "nice guy" is just who i prefer to be, because it's the most correct way to treat people. It sure as hell isn't how you get a girl though, obviously... nice guys finish last haha

pavman

02-15-2008, 03:31 PM

Pavman seems to me to have a well expressed E and S... if you know what i mean :P

I don't really understand what you mean, unless there should be an X attached to that somewhere ;)

There's a difference between wanting to figure out a way to get that person you've known and liked forever, and looking for an "easy way" to fast gratification by playing on people's inner workings.

Woah... hold on a minute. I'm not saying you should all go out and turn into male sluts or big jerks.... I'm just saying that having a tool that you can use to give yourself an advantage can greatly improve your ability to catch the catch you want. Doesn't mean it will, doesn't mean it won't.

PUA aside, the subconscious cues are there, I've seen it in almost every woman I've known (even my mom... I've seen her give some cues to a guy here or there when out shopping with her (not that men shop, mind you) and I was like... :scared:). Hell, my grandmother tried to show me how to flirt the other day when we were at breakfast by randomly stopping a young, tall kid walking by our table by telling him she wanted his inches! She's like 93... and about 4'10" ... so ... OMG it took me all my will power not to laugh my a$$ off.

The cues are there. PUA is just a way to help tip the scales in your favor, if you will. In the end, once you're in the relationship, that kind of stuff won't really help much. But, personally, I'm good at maintaining relationships once I've gotten over that initial awkwardness of trying to get a date, first date, first kiss, etc etc.

iamnotspock

02-15-2008, 04:55 PM

Hell, my grandmother tried to show me how to flirt the other day when we were at breakfast by randomly stopping a young, tall kid walking by our table by telling him she wanted his inches! She's like 93... and about 4'10" ... so ... OMG it took me all my will power not to laugh my a$$ off.

Your granny's a playa!

AgentofGaming

02-15-2008, 08:22 PM

There's cues that women give when they're interested.

Basic cues off the top of my head:
She plays with her hair when looking at you (that's probably the easiest).
She touches you.
Spreading of her legs when she's sitting across from you (usually you won't see this but hey...and I know it sounds kind of gross, but its all subconscious).
She looks at your lips frequently (ie she wants to kiss you, ya dolt!)
... there's others, but these are some of the ones I remember. The lips thing and the hair thing I've found to be the best clues.
The only thing I've noticed with girls is touch but...
I think anyone who has touched me did so accidentally. Besides I make myself untouchable, hands in the pocket style lol. I also don't distance myself when talking and talk softly as well I often don't look at who I 'm talking to.

Although there were very funny moments. One time I had to say to a girl on the other side of the table "uhm, you know you're tapping your foot on my shoe".

The best impression I've ever had was when the same girl baked a chocolate cake and came up to where I sat with all those guys and gave me a piece.
However I take it as compensation for the academic advantage I provided her.

What do you deduce from that? (I'm leaving out some information so I can see if what you say will match)
This article is for cues men give (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

Don't know how accurate it is, and it looks annoyingly female oriented, but have at it ladies!

Here's a whackier one for men (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), but you might like it, AgentofGaming, as it uses really technical language.

I prefer this article (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) a bit more, as it goes into more depth. However, it was written by a woman, and so its not as efficient as it could be. :thumbsup:

And finally...a fascinating study synopsis on how women use men's facial cues to determine relationship length (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

Good luck my man, welcome to the world of baseball!
Umm... this stuff is almost as confusing than Electromagnetic fields... so...
For me complex relationships with people is harder than solving complex numbers.
Did I mention I'm in Engineering? and that I seldom leave my room? :rolleyes: so yeah... I don't see much purpose at least in the near term and it feels like the engineering communication course.

And as for men being trained for them... MCFLY! HELLO MCFLY! Men are not trained for the cues. Otherwise, AgentofGaming wouldn't need to learn how to spot the cues.... I'm just tryin to help here. I can go back to my own universe and not try to help, but then folks won't improve and they'll still be complaining about this 10 years from now. I used to be like AoG, but I did the research and started observing human behavior, and I've concluded that not only do the cues work, but so does the PUA stuff at that site I linked to before.

Whether or not you want to try, is up to you. Relationships can sometimes cause more problems than they are worth...
I'm not complaining I just think it's a funny subject (as in humorous and weird at the same time). Ah my poor naive self...
Something tells me I ask for 99% trouble in trying, just like the electricity thing I mentioned.
yes... trouble like the time I held a 50000 Volt popcan and touch a grounded piece of metal.:thumbsup:

My mom once said I was hopelessly boring, Can't get worse than that right? ;D

Rohsiph

02-15-2008, 10:38 PM

JTG

02-16-2008, 01:23 AM

There are worse things than being single.

Cooties...

pavman

02-17-2008, 12:00 AM

Although there were very funny moments. One time I had to say to a girl on the other side of the table "uhm, you know you're tapping your foot on my shoe".

Good sign.... :o) Assuming this isn't your little sister...

The best impression I've ever had was when the same girl baked a chocolate cake and came up to where I sat with all those guys and gave me a piece.
However I take it as compensation for the academic advantage I provided her.

Not sure on this one. Could go either way (err on the side of caution). I'd say throw caution to the wind, but each situation is different...

I find that food/gifts are one way women show their interest, especially if she made the cake the piece came from. Just like we do for them in our own way with gifts, flowers, fixing things for them, etc. Yes yes, traditional gender roles here.... :cry: But there's a number of factors there.

Oh, the same girl? Yeah, she digs you on some level. Probably slightly more than a friend, but you know...girls don't always make much sense. :irked:

My mom once said I was hopelessly boring, Can't get worse than that right? ;D

eh? Well, don't let that bother you. You know, some women like boring, dependable, honorable, nice guys (in fact, I think a lot of women like these types). The thing is, as you get older, and experience more of life, you'll find you kind of come into your own.

Always remember...there's lots of women out there who have had so many bad relationships with bad guys that when they meet one that:
doesn't do drugs
can hold a job
is intelligent
respects them
etc etc

They totally fall for 'em. Which is great, especially if she's the right woman for you and vice versa.

On a less serious note...not sure how geeky you are in RL, but I'm thinking INTJs are far too kewl to be geeky...otherwise we'd be INTPs ;) (I had to throw that in for Thod's sake).

iamnotspock

02-17-2008, 12:26 AM

It is true that women fall for the clean intelligent respectul nice guys with good jobs -- esp. in their 20's and 30's when they want to settle down and have babies. But don't you ever get sick of that?

In the space of a mere week online I managed to accumulate several adoring emails from women who already concluded I am said nice guy. I have a "wonderful gentle sense of humor". I am "too funny, but in a manly way". I'm "not like the other guys".

Lord. It is sickening ;-)

I'd actually prefer that they could read the stuff I post online. Then they would realize that in an ideal world I would spend my time physically dismembering idiots I disagree with, slaughtering the infidels who have antagonized my tribe, and rounding up large numbers of fertile big-breasted foreign women for mass orgies under the moonlight, to be silently attended by the castrated eunichs prepared in advance to raise our offspring.

But where in the date can you sleep in those little details?

I think I'll marry the first woman who realizes that I am actually the reincarnation of Ghengis Khan. No man alive wants to be adored as a nice guy.

My creed: May every man fear me. Every woman love me. And nobody ever forget my name.

I bet it's the secret desire of all men.

AgentofGaming

02-17-2008, 10:57 AM

Easy solution to frustrations with dating:

don't play.

Cultivate yourself with the time and energy that would have been spent actively pursuing intimacy--read, write, draw, listen; create, collaboratively or individually.

There are worse things than being single.
I'm bored so I'm just looking for something to fill in the lack of computer games.

Good sign.... :o) Assuming this isn't your little sister...

Not sure on this one. Could go either way (err on the side of caution). I'd say throw caution to the wind, but each situation is different...

I find that food/gifts are one way women show their interest, especially if she made the cake the piece came from. Just like we do for them in our own way with gifts, flowers, fixing things for them, etc. Yes yes, traditional gender roles here.... :cry: But there's a number of factors there.

Oh, the same girl? Yeah, she digs you on some level. Probably slightly more than a friend, but you know...girls don't always make much sense. :irked:
I bet she baked it, since it wasn't bakery quality.
Ok now for the hidden thing, when I don't have any classes in common with her, she is far less receptive. Also she told her friends I'm a weird guy...

Gender roles? how come it can't be like other mammals where the female does the courting.

OK a different story now, I knew this girl (Gr. 4-8) who would always drop by my house uninvited with her friends. Back when I was remarkably wild, we'd play games that would wreck my house. Some notable things, she gave me a valentine's card in Gr. 6, and she asked me for a dance in the final dance of elementary. (She seemed to know I'd never ask her).
Oh and the friends trying to set me up thing confuses everything a lot.
Of course again I'll withhold a fact, and see how you assess it.

On a less serious note...not sure how geeky you are in RL, but I'm thinking INTJs are far too kewl to be geeky...otherwise we'd be INTPs ;) (I had to throw that in for Thod's sake).
The girl and her friends in the last story always liked to ask me "Why are you such a nerd?".
I'm not "cool", for the past one and half decade of my life all I ever did was goto school, do homework, and play computer games. Never did much of anything else, no studying, no outings.

It is true that women fall for the clean intelligent respectul nice guys with good jobs -- esp. in their 20's and 30's when they want to settle down and have babies. But don't you ever get sick of that?

In the space of a mere week online I managed to accumulate several adoring emails from women who already concluded I am said nice guy. I have a "wonderful gentle sense of humor". I am "too funny, but in a manly way". I'm "not like the other guys".

Lord. It is sickening ;-)

I think the only thing those people online know how to say is that you're: funny/interesting/nice/smart/like-me/etc
Hey, at least some of them elaborate, some can even explain why it fits in such a way I can't disagree.

Uytuun

02-17-2008, 03:18 PM

It is true that women fall for the clean intelligent respectul nice guys with good jobs -- esp. in their 20's and 30's when they want to settle down and have babies. But don't you ever get sick of that?

What you describe sounds more ISTJ than INTJ. We seem to be a lot more unconventional.

I know that clean intelligent respectful nice guys with good jobs are not enough for me. At least with the "boring" connotation I can detect in your post. Now if he's clean, intelligent, respectful, nice and has a good job AND is interesting, adventurous and challenging, then we're talking. :D

liger0

02-17-2008, 06:55 PM

Having been inside the PUA community for a brief period of time, I have come to the conclusion that I am not fit for that scene. It's too much pressure and generally too much work.

The PUA community pressures you into making a bunch of changes for the sake of "becoming a PUA". I'm already quite aware that I have neither model looks nor A+ personality, I certainly need no more reminders. I don't plan to change either just so that I can "get some".

Besides, a lot of it is just marketed to play on the insecurities of socially-awkward men who want to appear "normal" by proving to their "friends" that they can pick up some random bar floozy.

There's a whole article out there (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) about how messing with that PUA mess can screw with you. (IIRC, it was originally posted on mASF. I could be wrong, though.)

Anyway, that's my opinion. I'm sure others will disagree with me quite strongly. But, my judgement is that it's not worth a lot of peoples' time.

coffeeloverfreak

02-17-2008, 09:48 PM

liger0

02-17-2008, 10:05 PM

Liger, you sound like a refreshingly real type of guy. As a woman I can state with some assurance that I would find anyone who was a member of some sort of pick-up-artist group to be a major turn-off. I'd prefer real and awkward to fake and smooth any day. Don't succumb to the pressure. Be yourself.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not completely knocking the entire seduction community. There are genuinely decent people within, but most of them are simply posers who are just looking for an extra notch (or maybe the first in some cases) in the bedpost. A lot of them don't get that you have to actually improve as a person in order to become the person that people want.

However, my real problem is that people in the community, the gurus and posers alike, try and reduce human interaction into formulas and steps. As a rather analytical type of person, I would love it if that were possible. Alas, things aren't quite that black-and-white. It's completely false advertisement; it takes more abstract concepts of socialization (which are implied to any "normal," socially well-adjusted person) in order to correctly apply a lot of the "magic" that the community teaches.

There's a lot you can learn about dealing with people (like I did) from venturing into that dark realm, but it can also create problems.

I'm a rather stubborn person. I understood what I had to do in order to make people like me, I just didn't want to do it. Also, I'm rather apathetic. That said, I'm not really that decent of a guy, I'm just really laid-back in my dealings with people which doesn't allow my creepier aspects to seep in.

BloozeGit

02-18-2008, 03:33 AM

Now if he's clean, intelligent, respectful, nice and has a good job AND is interesting, adventurous and challenging, then we're talking. :D

Bar-room statistics: Even if say each of those qualities were present in 50% of the male population, the chances of having all eight of them in one guy are 0.5^8 = very small. :laugh:

As for me, I seem to be invariably attracted to women who aren't attracted to me and attract women I'm not attracted to. Must be something to do with the polarity of the Earths magnetic field or the Coriolis effect. :thumbsup:

Uytuun

02-18-2008, 08:12 AM

Well, I can settle for interesting and intelligent. :p

Yes, same with me, but then with men.

Agile

02-18-2008, 11:02 AM

The idea of the 50/50 relationship is a nice story that couple tell each other. In practice it doesn't work. Such a situation leads to a stalemate. For a resolution one side must dominate in the end.

The opposite of a 'sweet story' is a scary one. The real world happens to be neither.

I hope you didn't take my post personally, but I was talking about INTJ, and I don't see how your cultural norm has anything to do with them. NTJ group totals less than 5% of the population, so it wouldn't be easy to find one of them in real life, anyway. Try finding an (unattached) NTJ on a social networking site, in your area, and your age group...lol. I haven't tried all that much so maybe it is possible...anyway...

Two thinking individuals can distinguish between each other's opinions and can rationally and in a level headed way, discuss those differences. They can share ideas and actually learn from one another.

Another way of looking at this is, type aside, < 2% of the population (INTJ) is mature enough to have a rational debate.

Couples tend to have areas of expertise with one partner tending to make the decisions in that area and the other simply going along.

This is too broad of a statement. It's like saying 'opposites attract.' Communication skills make up for a lack of expertise. If the two cannot communicate well, they will not last anyway.

The advantage of an J-P coupling is that the discussion takes places but the P is happy to let the J make the plans to realize the solution. With a J-J solution the debate extends beyond the desired objective to the details of how to achieve it. The P will come up with lots of potential solutions the J will never see. You gain more by having the wider range of skills than having 2 that are exactly the same.

Taking your statement on expertise as a lead-in to what is here, this will not be possible. Either the all knowledgable J will completely dominate the P, who will be too happy to allow this, or the all knowledgable P will run circles around the J, who will be too tired to challenge, and possibly will be hurt and frustrated since the J will punish him/herself for lack of expertise, according to you.

My opinion is that no two people are exactly the same. Two people who think in similar patterns and have similar values can help each other. If the INTJ indeed really is the architect, the one who envisions and sees the forest and the trees, two INTJs will likely dovetail and cover each other's blind spots. They will approach any idea with the awareness that they do not know everything. Seems to me, they would me more likely to work together, instead of against each other, than other couples. I hang my hat on the phrase that INTJ wants other people to make sense...and in my sensible view, lol, that means two in a couple both understand that they are on the same side, both wanting the good of the other and themselves as a *group,* not individuals, and therefore do not seek to dominate one another.

Not realy most of the INTP's I know are hard as gravel. They don't notice ephemera and if you contradict one of their held opinions you are subject to a machine gun attack of data and correlations showing why you are wrong

Fair enough. I took a look at the typelogic description of INTP and agree with you on this last point.

blueback

02-18-2008, 01:40 PM

I'm gonna have to chime in with support for the PUA way of dealing with the situation.

Here's the thing, most of the people in the world are unbalanced in some way. That means that, statistically, any group of people is going to have some who are balanced but most will be unbalanced. If you join a tennis club, you'll find a couple people who are cool and a bunch who aren't, that's just the way people work. The PUA community is a group just like any other, it just has a different mission statement. Some of the people in it will be genuinly good people and most of them will be broken in some way.

However, just because someone "does" pick-up doesn't mean they are a pick-up artist. Just because someone does electrical engineering doesn't mean they are an electrical engineer. Just because someone kayaks doesn't mean they are a kayaker. INTJ are actually uniquely suited to maintaining their individuality in the face of peer pressure. So, the PUA community is a great place for them to unravel the mystery of male-female interaction because they are guaranteed to not get lost in it.

Trust me, when you watch a guy "work" a room it will change your whole conceptual map of social interaction. When you see what actually works you will then have the choice to use the knowledge or not, you won't be chained to doing things that don't work because they're all you know.

Now, the perspective from the female side is necessarily different. I've heard a lot of INTJ gals on this forum express boredom or disgust at the idea of deliberately getting to know someone. You gals here seem to think that ANYTHING done on purpose is some form of manipulation or surrender. I would argue that you shouldn't knock it until you've tried it ;-)

I think the key is that a good relationship trades value for value.
Girls have things that guys want and guys have things that girls want. When someone gets what they want without giving anything in return the relationship is bad. There's nothing wrong with admiting that you want something and there's nothing wrong with getting it. The deal making, however, has to happen at every step. Don't misunderstand, I do mean DEAL MAKING! Every step of a relationship is a negotiation, the problem is that part of the deal is that you never directly talk about the deal. That means that you have to learn a new language to communicate in. Once you learn the language the relationships will seem to "happen on their own" just like you wanted them too.

coffeeloverfreak

02-18-2008, 03:10 PM

Now, the perspective from the female side is necessarily different. I've heard a lot of INTJ gals on this forum express boredom or disgust at the idea of deliberately getting to know someone. You gals here seem to think that ANYTHING done on purpose is some form of manipulation or surrender. I would argue that you shouldn't knock it until you've tried it ;-)

You're misunderstanding the female opposition to sites like PUA, I think.

Here's my (female) perspective: I have no problem with someone deliberately trying to get to know me. I do have a problem with someone trying to manipulate me by pretending to be something he's not.

I also know that I sometimes observe the pick-up game sort of like a detached anthropological observer. The things that "work" on my female friends don't work on me. I watch them, I can mentally process them happening, but I don't react to them in the predictable way when they're directed at me. At best, I'm mildly amused but uninterested. At worst (and most often), they turn me off completely.

So when I see a guy "putting the moves" on me, I usually think one of two things:
1) He thinks he's such hot shit but he's not => loser wannbe
2) He's not sincere / only after sex => player

For similar reasons, I'm usually not attracted to guys who seem *too* good-looking, *too* confident, *too* smooth. Sure, maybe I'll think they're great to watch in a movie or on a magazine cover, but I wouldn't actually want to date one. My mental process would tell me to avoid such a man, because he wouldn't be someone I'd feel at ease with. Either I'd be intimidated by him, or I'd assume he'd be unfaithful, or I'd feel unattractive or awkward compared to him, or I'll make the snap stereotypical judgment that he's the male equivalent of a "dumb blonde", i.e. pretty to look at but not heavy on the grey matter. Whatever the case, I'd probably just move on. The kind of man I tend to be attracted to doesn't fit into that narrow stereotype, and I'm sure a lot of guys would be surprised to realize that there are girls out there who will like them precisely because they don't fit that mould. In other words, don't try so hard to be something you're not, when the right girl will be interested in you for being exactly who you are.

All that to say, the things you'll read about with something like PUA won't work on me. So if a guy is interested in me and tries them, I'm most apt to walk away. If someone wants me to give him the time of day, he'd be better off being himself - even if he's shy, a little awkward, maybe not-so-smooth. I'm much more likely to be attracted to that.

And I'm certainly not the only woman who feels like that. There are plenty of others like me. If you're a guy out there, and you lump all women together, assuming they'll all respond to the same things, then you're likely to only ever end up with one specific type of woman: the type who's into the things they tell you at PUA. Which is fine, I suppose, if those are the women you want to meet. But if you want to meet other kinds of women, you might try other tactics. Sincerity is a good one.

pavman

02-18-2008, 03:30 PM

If someone wants me to give him the time of day, he'd be better off being himself - even if he's shy, a little awkward, maybe not-so-smooth. I'm much more likely to be attracted to that.
...Which is fine, I suppose, if those are the women you want to meet. But if you want to meet other kinds of women, you might try other tactics. Sincerity is a good one.

Hmm, you definitely aren't a guy who isn't good looking, naturally attractive, etc etc. Its a lot harder for us regular guys out there to get a date than you'd imagine.

I've tried doing the ... subtle hints/friends first thing, but its really tough to gage not only when the person is interested, but how to proceed if the interest is discovered and mutually agreed upon.

Its much easier when I go in thinking I'm gonna get this girl, and I'm gonna use all the tricks of the trade to try to do it. Ironically, I haven't had to use much PUA stuff because I can spot the cues, but it does come in handy for moving to the next level or for getting her to notice you exist and attaching an emotional connection to you that she may not have made.

I'm not sure I've ever met a female INTJ. The closest I can think are friends from HS/College or a girl one of my roommates dated (Nuclear engineer..she was ... INTJish, but I didn't get to know her long enough to figure it out).

Perhaps INTJ women are just superior to the rest for their keen observational skills.

robin.

02-18-2008, 03:55 PM

Uytuun

02-18-2008, 04:32 PM

Attraction needs to be there, but looks are not at all high on the priority list for me. Attraction can be generated by all kinds of stuff, not necessarily of the physical kind. A brilliant brain can be so hot. :p

I'm not sure I've ever met a female INTJ

Very probable, we're rare. And although I have problems acting according to social conventions, I'm strongly aware of when certain social interaction patterns come into play...this often puts me in the position of the smiling knowingly observer that chuckles quietly at how absurd certain situations are. E.g. once a guy was absolutely and shamelessly flirting with me and I let him and it was as if I detached myself from the scene and watched a scenario unfold that I could predict almost completely. I thought it was amusing, but at the same time it's a bit of a curse, since it seems to prevent me from fully losing myself in the moment.

coffeeloverfreak

02-18-2008, 05:00 PM

Very probable, we're rare. And although I have problems acting according to social conventions, I'm strongly aware of when certain social interaction patterns come into play...this often puts me in the position of the smiling knowingly observer that chuckles quietly at how absurd certain situations are. E.g. once a guy was absolutely and shamelessly flirting with me and I let him and it was as if I detached myself from the scene and watched a scenario unfold that I could predict almost completely. I thought it was amusing, but at the same time it's a bit of a curse, since it seems to prevent me from fully losing myself in the moment.

I know exactly what you mean. I've been in that situation more times than I can count.

pavman

02-18-2008, 05:05 PM

^Just for the record, out of all the guys I've been attracted to in the past, the vast, VAST majority were guys that generally would not be called good-looking.

So, either I have wonky tastes, or there actually are some women out there who don't place too much emphasis on looks...

Yes yes, I know. But still, if you observed, than you would see some women tend to flirt more/throw themselves at the good looking, tall, in-shape guys a LOT more than the short, balding, fat, fugly guys out there .... ;D

I'm not saying I'm one of those, but this is what I've observed. And its annoying to watch how pathetic some women can be.

Yes yes, adding the bold some for emphasis so peeps don't go off and start a new thread about my jackassery, no matter how that feeds my ego. :thumbsup:

coffeeloverfreak

02-18-2008, 05:10 PM

blueback

02-18-2008, 05:20 PM

You're misunderstanding the female opposition to sites like PUA, I think.

Here's my (female) perspective: I have no problem with someone deliberately trying to get to know me. I do have a problem with someone trying to manipulate me by pretending to be something he's not.

Exactly! Everyone has a problem with being lied to.
However, the reason PUA technology works is that it doesn't encourage guys to pretend to be anything other then what they are. I'm assuming that you haven't actually read much of the PUA literature so I'll provide some context to my explanations.

First, women (on average) are more attracted to what a guy does then what he looks like.

Second, women (on average) are more likely to throw out hints that they're interested than to actually take positive action.

Third, women (on average) are approached by members of the opposite sex far more often then men are.

What all that means in a practical sense is that guys have to act, and they have to act in such a way that they stand out from the crowd of guys acting. BTW, I mean 'act' in the sense of take action, not false drama. If a guy isn't use to doing the things that attract gals then he has to trust that they work before he can get used to doing them. The normal way to get over that hurdle is to unashamedly mimic an experienced PUA. Say the same things, dress the same way, tell the same stories, etc. For that window the guy is pretending to be someone else. However, I've never read anything written by a PUA that didn't tell the student to move past the canned routines as quickly as possible. As soon as he trusts what works he automatically incorporates it into himself. The result is that who he really is shines through the haze of all the guys who are unable to express who they really are.

I suppose it's like neurosurgery. Every neurosurgeon who is really good had to start somewhere. That means that at some point he had to cut into his first head. The only way to learn is to try and someone is going to be stuck putting up with the mistakes of the beginners. So a few women will get the feeling that the guy isn't being genuine, but once he learns how to express himself he will be genuine.

So when I see a guy "putting the moves" on me, I usually think one of two things:
1) He thinks he's such hot shit but he's not => loser wannbe
2) He's not sincere / only after sex => player

This is a good example of exactly the reason the game exists.
You want to be in a relationship but only with the right guy. You don't want to make a mistake and either waste your resources or get hurt. That means that you have a "shield" between you and all the strange males around you. That means that any guy who wants anything from you will run into the shield. That means that every guy who wants something from you has to somehow convince you to lower your shield. It's not a moral issue, it's a practical one! Even your ultimate soul-mate would run into your shield and it would be his responsibility to convince you to drop it.

Just getting a gal to talk to you is a skill. If you're bad at it she will never know whether or not she would have liked you.

For similar reasons, I'm usually not attracted to guys who seem *too* good-looking, *too* confident, *too* smooth. Sure, maybe I'll think they're great to watch in a movie or on a magazine cover, but I wouldn't actually want to date one.

I know exactly what you mean. But, and think about this honestly, if one of them was totally into you would you date him anyway? Would you refuse to let him near you simply because he was too good-looking, confident and smooth or would you see what happened?

Whatever your answer is, the average woman would absolutely let him get closer. That is why the PUA stuff works. The great thing about this stuff is that it improves every aspect of a guy's life. The sort of things women are attracted to are impossible to fake. You either are funny or you aren't. You either are consistent or you aren't. You either are confident or you aren't. Women can move up 3 points on the 10 point scale just by putting an afternoon into their dress, makeup and hair. Guys can move up 3 points on the scale by spending 5 years advancing their careers, learning how to lead, and visiting their mother.

In other words, don't try so hard to be something you're not, when the right girl will be interested in you for being exactly who you are.

No, she won't (at least not in a statistical sense). That is a common piece of dogma perpetuated by the western ideal of romantic love. The reality is that women are attracted to certain things. If a guy really is an asshole, a slob, and a pauper he will not find a woman who loves him "for exactly who he is." Sure, there's always the remote possibility that someone will fall in love with you without you having to make any effort to be attractive, but the possibility is very very remote.

All that to say, the things you'll read about with something like PUA won't work on me.

Are you sure? Have you actually researched the PUA literature? You should keep in mind that anything good will attract worthless immitations. The way to separate the wheat from the chaff is to test it. That's why a good PUA author will tell the student to "just get out there" and try something, anything.

The stuff that works will work anywhere, anytime, because it is incorporated into the guy's personality. It's difficult to make a list, but it could all be summarized by simply saying that the guy becomes "better".

If you're a guy out there, and you lump all women together, assuming they'll all respond to the same things, then you're likely to only ever end up with one specific type of woman: the type who's into the things they tell you at PUA.

PUA is an acronym for picku-up artist, it's not a label for every egocentric, manipulative jerkoff you've ever known or heard of. The thing to remember before you judge a PUA is that a good one is constantly evaluating his 'game' to see what works. He doesn't blindly carry out orders that were handed down by a posse of cloaked men who hang out in a dark basement. PUAs learn how to facilitate social activities, usually with the goal of meeting women, they don't carry around a mind-ray or roofies.

Which is fine, I suppose, if those are the women you want to meet. But if you want to meet other kinds of women, you might try other tactics. Sincerity is a good one.

Actually, you might be suprised at how hard it is to find a sincere woman. BTW, there are a lot more of them on this forum then in the general population.

The reason the PUA technology works is because it teaches guys how to learn. Women are very bad at giving advice on how to pick up women. The best 'advice' they give is when they respond to someone trying to pick them up. If you ever ask a gal what she finds attractive, and then watch her to see what she actually finds attractive, the difference will motivate you to take all the advice women give with a grain of salt.

jjelovich

02-18-2008, 09:34 PM

I don't know about some of you other guys but this PUA nonsense just sounds like men trying to become peacocks. I'd much rather be a man.

robin.

02-18-2008, 09:41 PM

Ah but here is the question, pavman: What kind of woman are you attracted to?

Is it posssible that you like the PUA philosophy because you are attracted to those particular women who, as you put it, "flirt more/throw themselves at the good looking, tall, in-shape guys"?

Can you appreciate the fact that, by using these techniques, you're making a choice? A choice you're perfectly entitled to make, don't get me wrong, but a choice nonetheless: You're choosing to pursue that particular type of woman over other women like, say, myself or Robin or Uytunn?

If so, there's nothing wrong with that. But please realize that those PUA techniques are not successful for getting all women; they're only successful for attracting a certain type of woman.Hmm...At first I thought this was totally true. But, now that I'm thinking about it more, I'm not so sure I agree. I think that the main goal of PUA philosophy is to teach confidence, which is very valuable in every part of life. I, too, don't like the idea of people spouting off canned lines, but when you are so immobilized by the fear of rejection, sometimes you need the training wheels.

However, I think it's also important to recognize that a lot of the men who are drawn towards this type of confidence-building literature happen to use it primarily to bed women. I think it's obvious that this is why it was written in the first place, but I don't think it was written with the intention of duping women (but then again, I haven't read it). I think that the problem arises when these men decide that only attractive, club-going twenty-somethings are worthy of their newfound confidence. When men use manuals to try to have sex with solely beautiful women, it really taints what I think both genders could really benefit from, and it makes it look cheap. In essence, it's not the actual philosophy that annoys me, it's that it seems like it's only used for sex, and primarily for beautiful women. I think that these techniques could work for all kind of women...the problem is when guys use their confidence for sex, not relationships, AND/OR with primarily "hot" women.

Rohsiph

02-18-2008, 09:49 PM

goddamn . . . every time i come across one of these threads with this fucking debate between whether a "PUA" (sound it out: poo-AH!) can be genuine or not, it makes me wish i could burn it all down all the more. shit.

the actual existence of the impossible is problematic when chasing down what it actually means . . . this to say: it's trivially correct to admit it's "possible" for a "PUA" to be genuine. sadly, the very nature of the "scene" is all about cutting an edge to supplant something from a game that some people just aren't programmed for--it's about forcing people into things that it would be far healthier for them to ignore.

the game is sick--playing it is to become sick, especially if the rules seem unnatural to you.

i hate february. really, you have no idea.

robin.

02-18-2008, 10:02 PM

Whoa settle down there...I'm not even sure what you're trying to say. All I'm saying is that some amount of rehearsing is necessary when you're really, really nervous about getting rejected, but that the problem arises when the majority of guys use this rehearsing specifically to get beautiful women to have sex with them. Some guys use this confidence for women they actually, genuinely like, others actually get into the idea of playing women.

iamnotspock

02-19-2008, 01:21 AM

blueback's post is excellent. I'm a little disappointed that the PUA critics don't seem to have read it yet. he put a lot of time into that clearly. not fair to gloss over it and just reply. (that's what my ex would do, though)

also, there is a phrase "an ant is not an entymologist". in other words, a guy is not going to be the best source fo unbiased info on guy behavior. his GF is probably a better observer of that. ditto for women. coffeelover's protest that PUA technique doesn't work on her is very common. and rarely accurate.

however, even if it's true that it doesn't work on her, or all INTJ women, 99% of the time the women you meet are not INTJ. the other 1% of the time you won't know that they are. so it logically makes no sense whatsoever to stop using a technique that works for most for the mere possibility that it might not work in this rare exceptional case.

moreover, if what coffeelover says is true, you don't have to do anything. you just be you and somehow she will find you. except that she probably rarely actually gives out any signs or makes the first move. so you'll never know. so, maybe you shouldn't hold your breath

but most of all, I have to say I am very tired of the coffeelovers of the world b/c of their false advertising. "intelligent and a sense of humor" is what you hear them say. but the last time I checked, the Harvard grad I know who does standup on the weekends was still single. that's not b/c his IQ is too low, or his jokes ain't funny. that's b/c that phrase means something different to women than to men. to men, it's about IQ and great one liners. to women, it's about EQ -- understanding how to connect emotionally -- and making *her* laugh, which usually means she in a light-hearted and relaxed mood and feels romantic. we all know women who like you will laugh at anything you say

well, guess what -- increasing EQ and getting a woman into a relaxed romanitc mood is __exactly__ what PUA teaches guys to do. techniques like mirroring and NLP are based on the same cognitive psychology that Goleman describes in Emotional Intelligence or more recently Social Intelligence. this stuff is real, and comes out of university labs at places like Harvard.

anyway, the point is, forget about the brain-building exercises and the comedy routine. it won't work. and don't think you can sit around being yourself for another 20 years and suddenly all the women will show up. experience teaches that won't happen.
instead learn how to raise your EQ and connect with people. you'll have much more success with every human -- which includes every woman. except maybe coffelover ;-)

burazekun

02-19-2008, 03:54 AM

Way to go! This thread turned out something different then what it started.

I actually enjoyed reading through the evolution of the replies. I could see the breaking down of the conversations into logical chess pieces and the layout of a board unfold!

How about some practice!
Been 4 years since my last relationship. I know that pang of loneliness, though finding someone of alike or simular mind is important to me.

However, I might as well be a lead weight when it comes to someone hitting on me.

Antares

02-19-2008, 06:05 AM

Oh-- I did date another INTJ once. Unfortunately, neither one of us realized we were in a relationship. And I'm not sure if I had feelings for him. The other guys were some combination of F and E. It drove me nuts.

I'm in a similar situation right now. The other is probably an ENTP. We see each other every other day in one class and would talk about the most ridiculous things. He makes some of the greatest jokes too and has a way of making me giggle, something I seldom do. I look forward to that class every day because of him and to me, that class is not class but a fool-around (not sexually) time for me. I enjoy his company very much and definitely will not mind being in a relationship with him; he makes me smile like no one can but I don't really know if I like him romantically, nor he I. I've been told that we act like an old married couple. We would bicker playfully and mock-assault each other. I would chastise him when I'm not supposed to (he's first chair for the flute section, and I'm second. Logically, he would do that to me, not the other way around). I always turn into a child whenever I'm with him. I think that my feelings for him are not exactly platonic, but not romantic either. I never recognize flirting nor know if anyone likes me (btw, I received an anon. valentine!), and I might have missed out on a lot because of that.

blueback

02-19-2008, 08:24 AM

iamnotspock: good post! you filled in some of the holes I left in my explanation.

camelopardalis: that sounds like flirting to me :-) maybe you should stop worrying and just give the relationship a try.

Been 4 years since my last relationship. I know that pang of loneliness, though finding someone of alike or simular mind is important to me.

However, I might as well be a lead weight when it comes to someone hitting on me.

The hardest part of a relationship is getting it started. Everyone's afraid of getting hurt, or tricked, or used, or of simply wasting their time. That fear is very real and it has a very real effect on your life. The fear is real because no one likes everyone they meet. Even a person who is universally beloved, like Ghandi, will run into someone who hates them.

The fear of rejection is a byproduct of the fact that humans evolved in small tribal units. Back then being rejected by even a single person could be a life altering event. Today there are upwards of 6 billion people on the planet so even being rejected by a million people won't put a cramp in your style.

Now, this is the important part to understand, attraction and rejection are emotional reactions. Emotions are not choices, you can't choose to feel a certain way, they are automatic reactions to stimulation. That is why some people will hate you no matter how likeable you are, if you trigger their rejection switches they won't be able to stop themselves from hating you.

That might sound kind of suckie but it's actually the most liberating thing in the world! It frees you from the irrational conclusion that you can't be more attractive. All you have to do is upgrade yourself so that you trigger more attraction switches in those you want to attract. Additionally, it informs your life by reminding you that human interaction is a numbers game. The more you meet people the more people you will meet who like you. It's as simple as that.

You see, people are very bad at intuitively understanding statistics. We can be taught how to think about things statistically, but it takes a lot of repetition and discipline. So, when you meet 10 people you tend to think about them as if they're the only people that are important in the world. But 10 people is an incredibly small sample, it's way too small to be statistically relevant. Any conclusion you draw from those people will be no better than a wild guess. If you want to understand people you have to meet more of them. . .a lot more. . .1000 would be a good start.

Basically, if you want something out of a relationship with another human all you have to do is keep looking for it. Just cut ties with the people who aren't satisfying you and look for one who will. That means that you will be taking responsibility for starting and stopping the relationships in your life (starting is still harder than stopping). If you make yourself more attractive it will make your search easier, but actively searching is the most important component of success.

Lucid

02-19-2008, 08:58 AM

Every dating thread eventually devolves into a discussion of PUA techniques. They work for the men who are not conventionally attractive or naturally gifted with even passable social skills. And they work ON women who are irrationally emotional and willing to be picked up. Not your typical INTJ women. And the PUA techniques aren't used by men that the typical INTJ women will be attracted to, who tend to be unconventional, intelligent and honest.
But that's not to say that the PUA techniques are totally without merit. Especially for men who want the kinda stupid, mostly irrational girls who go for it.it. What the PUA people need to get though, is that it's not helpful for serious, long term relationships or people who want a bit more substance.
What I'd like to see, is maybe the PUA fans starting their own PUA thread where they can discuss PUA techniques and whatever else it is they do., leaving the genuine dating questions (as opposed to the pick up crap, which is really just s quick and easy fix... like fad diets.) to be contemplated by the rest of us who want more from dating or relationships than the dating equivalent of a celebrity diet. Some of the techniques are useful and some of us need them or find validity in them. But, at the end of the day it's just a questionably successful, short term short cut.
Also, it's silly to say "well my smart funny friend is still single so women lie when they say what they want is intelligence and a sense of humor." Intelligence and sense of humor are the two most important things I look for, but they aren't the only things. If your smart funny friend doesn't bathe regularly or also tells racist jokes he's probably not going to get far with women. . Coffeelover isn't lying, she's expressing her preferences when it comes to dating, preferences which most INTJ women seem to share.
I think at the end of the day all of us probably have similar issues with dating. Most INTJ women aren't any more successful than then INTJ men because we aren't generally "cute" or flirty or overly girly. Also we're blunt, intelligent, critical and sarcastic . These are not, generally, qualities that most men want in females. Rather than saying, women are irrational and liars and " blah blah blah,I think it would benefit all of us to try some mutual understanding. We females don't have it any easier than you men when it comes to dating.

pavman

02-19-2008, 09:21 AM

Antares

02-19-2008, 09:31 AM

pavman

02-19-2008, 09:38 AM

PUA methods actually work? Wow. I agree with AgentofGaming though; I wouldn't like to be like someone I'm not and I'd much rather a man be himself also, but it might just be this personality. I think it ultimately depends on who you're using them on. I don't know about other women, but PUA is a turn-off for me.

Has anyone every tried it on you? If not, then perhaps you just didn't recognize it. There's lots of tricks of the trade out there, but its not for everybody. And its really just to open the door to a relationship that otherwise may not be an option because of some women's shallow, close-mindedness.

Antares

02-19-2008, 09:40 AM

Rohsiph

02-19-2008, 10:26 AM

Has anyone every tried it on you? If not, then perhaps you just didn't recognize it. There's lots of tricks of the trade out there, but its not for everybody. And its really just to open the door to a relationship that otherwise may not be an option because of some women's shallow, close-mindedness.

No . . . it's really a peculiar guide to channeling in to false-confidence, with an end-goal of normalizing awkward guys into a system that they usually don't belong in.

If a woman is going to put up a "shield" to my natural public persona, then I don't see how we'd get along beyond the initial stages of relationship-dom. If a woman fails to recognize that I exist in public, then it'd take some amazing convincing to show that this woman would really want to travel in any public place with me. If a woman passes off my standard communication methods in a public setting for those of a pick-up artist, then what's going to stop her from eventually walking off with the superior pick-up artist sooner or later?

I really appreciate Lucid's latest response here . . . this "scene" gets under my skin, such that when an entertaining thread on perceptions of the social/relationship organism as such devolves into the same bickering between unconventional women unconvinced about pick-up artists and unconventional men convinced about it . . . it's beyond annoying.

Pavman: the consistent "has a PUA ever hit on you?" responses are entirely disrespectful, along with the insistence that the "technology" works the vast majority of the time. This is because women are allowed to have perceptions that fly in the face of sociological inquiry, and that in some cases women don't follow strict biological mechanisms (which is giving the pick-up artist huge benefit of doubt that at least some techniques actually are cuing into something on a base level).

I'd love for there to be a way to funnel all pick-up artist related comments into one or two primary threads (one for pros, one for cons maybe . . . i don't care), to salvage threads like this one.

AgentofGaming

02-19-2008, 11:14 AM

Hey, I just mentioned it for AgentofGaming's sake as part of a multi-tiered strategy to improve his ability. I find it funny how many people get upset at it, even more so the number that think its all about pickup lines.

The Bottom Line: It works. Its not like AoG is on here trying to pick up women, so its moot as to whether or not that stuff would work on INTJ women on this board.
I like the outlooks in the posts at the top of the page. Most of you are right I shouldn't be closed, there's no harm to new perspective. I don't know if reading something could really help me though.

Firstly I'm not a person of action, someone could touch the depths of me with advise and I'd not act.

Secondly I'm bad at social, like really bad. I freak out when I have to talk to people I don't know. I'd rather not eat lunch if all the tables have people on them. (because I can't ask)

Thirdly when people try to meet me all I know is to say "Nice to meet you" and give them my name, since they gave me theirs. Then I will never speak to them again even if I see them. I can't take initiative period, if people say hi the best I can do is echo.
Also I hate society how society makes my initiative imperative, I don't like to make the first good morning.

The three problems:
Lack of action (passiveness)
Fear of people (shy, self-consciousness)
Disliking interacting with people (introvertedness)

There got that off my chest, my deepest problems, the plague of my existence -> "How I cast myself into a loner".
Most of the friends I had, were when I was younger and more outgoing. Having moved I noticed I only make friends through friends.

offside: kind of weird being in the spotlight as prime example, but not as bad as I thought. I've opened up my perspectives after all.

blueback

02-19-2008, 11:25 AM

PUA techniques. They work for the men who are not conventionally attractive or naturally gifted with even passable social skills. And they work ON women who are irrationally emotional and willing to be picked up.

Are you basing this evaluation on your full understanding or are you pretending to be really sure about things you have almost no experience in?

And the PUA techniques aren't used by men that the typical INTJ women will be attracted to, who tend to be unconventional, intelligent and honest.

Are you basing this on your extensive experience with those who employ PUA techniques or are you pretending to know what you're talking about?

But that's not to say that the PUA techniques are totally without merit.

Oh. . .well carry on then.

Especially for men who want the kinda stupid, mostly irrational girls who go for it.it.

ATo view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. . .that's not what I wanted to hear. How am I going to validate my shallow existence now?

What the PUA people need to get though, is that it's not helpful for serious, long term relationships or people who want a bit more substance.

This conclusion must be based on your long and intensive experience with PUA technology. I mean, a logical, non-irrational person like you wouldn't make unfounded assumptions.

What I'd like to see, is maybe the PUA fans starting their own PUA thread where they can discuss PUA techniques and whatever else it is they do., leaving the genuine dating questions [...] to be contemplated by the rest of us who want more from dating or relationships than the dating equivalent of a celebrity diet.

Actually that's not a bad idea. . .

So, you must have actually tried PUA techniques. . .I mean, cuz otherwise you don't know what you're talking about. And you're a rational person, so you'd never make statements you couldn't back up.

I think I understand why this thread has become what it has become. You don't want dating advice, you want to "contemplate dating questions." You want exactly what all women want; commiseration. I can count on one hand the number of times a woman has talked to me about dating and has welcomed advice on how to fix her problem. It's actually kind of nice to see that INTJ gals are just like all other gals in at least one way ;-P

at the end of the day it's just a questionably successful, short term short cut.

Again with the confidence. You must be a real expert! Thanks for taking the time out of your busy sarging schedule to talk to all us noobs.

If your smart funny friend doesn't bathe regularly or also tells racist jokes he's probably not going to get far with women. .

And that is EXACTLY why PUA technology works! Thanks for making my point for me :-D

preferences which most INTJ women seem to share.

INTJ women are <1% of the population. . .and they don't make themselves easy to find. . .and they don't come running when a particular guy shows up. . .I think there's a metaphor that fits this situation. Something about a needle in a haystack?

We females don't have it any easier than you men when it comes to dating.

You could, if you wanted it to be easier. But, you don't want to date period, so of course it's not any easier for you. You can't have it both ways. You can't say that you refuse to get to know anyone AND that it's hard for you to get to know people.

Uytuun

02-19-2008, 12:36 PM

I have a question: why would you go through all that trouble simply in order to find a girlfriend? Especially since you're INTJ.

blueback

02-19-2008, 12:52 PM

Because I refuse to settle.

thod

02-19-2008, 01:18 PM

Conversely, why would someone want a girlfriend when they can have sex with lots of stunning babes?

Not everyone is so insecure they need someone else in their lives. I would quite happy to remain single whilst beating the world record for vagina stuffing. The idea is not about having a relationship. When I visit the bathroom, I want that shit out of my colon and into that bowl. When I pick up a woman its about getting semen into the vagina. Hell you think I spend hours talking to the hookers? Not a chance, the better you are at the pick up the more cash you save. If it misleads the woman then so be it, I am not interested in her personality. Pretty but dumb is fine for my purposes. A salesman sells to anyone stupid enough to buy, its caveat emptor.

burazekun

02-19-2008, 01:34 PM

Because I refuse to settle.

Same boat here. I refuse to settle. That only leads to problems, and your girl friend hitting you in the back of your head because you saw someone else's ass.

That second part was a joke.

Lucid

02-19-2008, 01:56 PM

Are you basing this evaluation on your full understanding or are you pretending to be really sure about things you have almost no experience in?

*sigh* I really wish you'd take the trouble to understand my posts instead of ascribing to me arguments I'm not making and then arguing with yourself about them. You keep saying, "you know nothing about PUA methods so how can you say they're useless??" Well I'm not saying that they're useless. Just that they aren't always applicable to many of the situations people describe in these threads and that they won't work for all people. Yet you insist on arguing with me as if I were completely against them despite the fact that I keep telling you otherwise.

Blueblack, it seems like I keep having this discussion with you and you seem to forget the points I repeatedly explain to you. I have no problems with PUA techniques used to help people gain confidence or learn when to make eye contact or what kinds of jokes to tell. You make a lot of assumptions about my opinions abut PUA techniques based on the fact that I don't wholly buy into the system the way you do.
I compare them to fad diets for a reason: fad diets will work. In a short term way. Generally, they're fads because people lose weight on them for awhile. Unfortunately, then they usually gain the weight back and are right back where they started. Fad diets might, however, offer some useful advice for people who want to lose weight. For example: eat less cheese.

Similarly, PUA techniques are probably useful for sleeping with lots of girls on whom that sort of thing works, or for short term dating. Also, things like, "if a person is interested in you they will part their lips and take more sips of their drink" are useful. So are tips like, "make eye contact, but don't stare them down." However, when taken to the extreme it is putting on a false personality to please others. I don't see how that could be useful for a long term relationship. I can see how it might get you considered for a long term relationship, but my personal philosophy is to be honest from the get go so that there are no surprises. Whether this philosophy is better or worse than PUA techniques is something we can certainly discuss, but first I think you need to calm down.

Are you basing this on your extensive experience with those who employ PUA techniques or are you pretending to know what you're talking about?

Nope, on a comment pavman made. I'm surprised you took issue with this, since it lends credibility to PUA methods and shows how they might be useful for some.

So, you must have actually tried PUA techniques. . .I mean, cuz otherwise you don't know what you're talking about. And you're a rational person, so you'd never make statements you couldn't back up.

You seem to forget that the PUA techniques involve two people. One on the receiving end of them. :) In addition, there are some PUA (or other means of manipulating people for an end, not necessarily sex or dating) systems for women which I have read and am somewhat familiar with. I don't use them because I find that they conflict with my personal preferences and ideas about morality in social interaction. But I do know them.

I'm not saying that PUA techniques don't work... I'm wondering why a person who is looking for an honest, long term relationship would change his or her personality to please others, since it seems like that kind of action would just lead to disappointment and/or unhappiness.

I think I understand why this thread has become what it has become. You don't want dating advice, you want to "contemplate dating questions." You want exactly what all women want; commiseration. I can count on one hand the number of times a woman has talked to me about dating and has welcomed advice on how to fix her problem. It's actually kind of nice to see that INTJ gals are just like all other gals in at least one way ;-P

Absolutely not. Unfortunately, most of the PUA dating advice that I've seen on these threads isn't useful for females. Pavman was kind enough to post a link to an article that aims some techniques at women (although he did it with a few nasty comments about women and it had pink flowers all over it... not that the flowers are his fault of course), but much of the PUA discussion that goes on is of little use to females or, imo, to males who want more than a series of one night stands. So the strategies and issues I would like to discuss with regard to dating, while not exclusive of PUA tips like "make eye contact" or "don't tell racist jokes on the first date," go a little more in depth than much of what's been mentioned on the PUA side of things.
I'd like to discuss ways to date successfully without having to change the person you are to impress someone else.

INTJ women are <1% of the population. . .and they don't make themselves easy to find. . .and they don't come running when a particular guy shows up. . .I think there's a metaphor that fits this situation. Something about a needle in a haystack?

I know. :( But we have dating problems too and it would be nice to be included in the discussions occasionally.

You could, if you wanted it to be easier. But, you don't want to date period, so of course it's not any easier for you. You can't have it both ways. You can't say that you refuse to get to know anyone AND that it's hard for you to get to know people.

Who said INTJ females didn't want to date period? Are you saying that INTJ men actually have it harder with regard to dating than INTJ women do? I dont think INTJ women refuse to get to know people. It's just that (like many of our male counterparts) we are picky as hell about our mates, often shy, not what the "typical" male wants in a female, and don't feel that it's right to try to fake at being someone we're not just to get a date. As rohsiph mentioned, there's worse things than being single, but that doesn't mean we're without a desire for companionship or relationships.

How can you make the statement I quoted above and then follow it with the following?

Because I refuse to settle.

So do the INTJ females. That's the problem.

Has anyone every tried it on you? If not, then perhaps you just didn't recognize it. There's lots of tricks of the trade out there, but its not for everybody. And its really just to open the door to a relationship that otherwise may not be an option because of some women's shallow, close-mindedness.

Both your understanding that it's not for everybody and your qualification ("some") are appreciated. :)
I can see how it can be useful as far as opening doors with women who are shallow or close-minded. But why would you want to date a woman like that? That's what I don't understand I guess. There's lots of things I can do to manipulate men to get them to like me, but they wouldn't actually like me for one thing, and for another, I wouldn't respect a man who wanted a dumb, docile, gullible, shallow girl enough to date him. Maybe a member of the PUA crowd can explain this to me?

Uytuun

02-19-2008, 03:49 PM

Because I refuse to settle.

Not settling as in constantly being on a quest to find the perfect female companion? Or just never wanting to be with one person for the rest of your life?

Not everyone is so insecure they need someone else in their lives. I would quite happy to remain single whilst beating the world record for vagina stuffing. The idea is not about having a relationship. When I visit the bathroom, I want that shit out of my colon and into that bowl. When I pick up a woman its about getting semen into the vagina. Hell you think I spend hours talking to the hookers? Not a chance, the better you are at the pick up the more cash you save. If it misleads the woman then so be it, I am not interested in her personality. Pretty but dumb is fine for my purposes. A salesman sells to anyone stupid enough to buy, its caveat emptor.

But it might be a fascinating addition to your life to be in a relationship with someone, no?

So do you mislead women and pretend to be interested in something long-term when all you really want is a quick shag or do you mislead them as in pretending to be more suave than you really are through PUA techniques? Aah, the power of intention.

I also feel that a lot of generalisations about women, especially INTJ women are generated in this thread. By both women and men, actually.

thod

02-19-2008, 04:02 PM

Not settling as in constantly being on a quest to find the perfect female companion?

There are no perfect female companions. You can fall in love but it only lasts a couple of years at most then the annoying reality of the other person creeps in and you see they are not perfect. Once you are getting what you need from them then what other people offer seems more attractive. Most people stick together out of familiarity. You have a nice predictable life and a steady sex supply. Its not perfect but for most people it sure beats going back to the dating game. And thats the problem. You realize you are not getting any younger and you know everything about what you have got. So you divorce and head out to find that which you find interesting in other people. Most of the couples you meet out are there are only together for the kids, and the older ones because its better than being alone, for them. I realize its not romantic but thats for the teenagers, you have to find and ask honest older people. Most will simply tell the young the same old romantic stuff knowing that its not actually the truth. Its much like telling kids that Santa is real because they believe thats what the kid wants to hear.

Lucid

02-19-2008, 04:11 PM

There are no perfect female companions. You can fall in love but it only lasts a couple of years at most then the annoying reality of the other person creeps in and you see they are not perfect. Once you are getting what you need from them then what other people offer seems more attractive. Most people stick together out of familiarity. You have a nice predictable life and a steady sex supply. Its not perfect but for most people it sure beats going back to the dating game. And thats the problem. You realize you are not getting any younger and you know everything about what you have got. So you divorce and head out to find that which you find interesting in other people. Most of the couples you meet out are there are only together for the kids, and the older ones because its better than being alone, for them. I realize its not romantic but thats for the teenagers, you have to find and ask honest older people. Most will simply tell the young the same old romantic stuff knowing that its not actually the truth. Its much like telling kids that Santa is real because they believe thats what the kid wants to hear.

Why don't you find a friends-with-benefits situation? I find that it minimizes on creepy late night phone calls from jilted one-night-stands and also the possibility of contracting diseases. In addition, I find it more... I dunno... honorable? Moral? Just? to be honest and up-front with the people with whom you are having sex. However, I do agree with you that people need to take some responsibility to make sure they aren't taken advantage of. I just don't think that it excuses the person doing the taking.
I'm not trying to criticize your method of gratification (although I personally find it rather distasteful), just making a suggestion for a safer more convenient (in my experience) alternative.

blueback

02-20-2008, 12:37 AM

Well I'm not saying that they're useless. Just that they aren't always applicable to many of the situations people describe in these threads and that they won't work for all people. Yet you insist on arguing with me as if I were completely against them despite the fact that I keep telling you otherwise.

Weird how your position only becomes nuanced after I point out that you don't know what you're talking about.

You're still wrong. PUA tech works for everyone, in all situations. It is specifically tailored for men and parties, but the core is universal. BTW, it works because the core is universal. I though I probably needed to point that out.

I have no problems with PUA techniques used to help people gain confidence or learn when to make eye contact or what kinds of jokes to tell.

Yet you continually reject the whole system, only occasionally mentioning that some of it might work for someone every now and then; and then only when I call you out on being proud of the fact that you have avoided researching the topic.

Similarly, PUA techniques are probably useful for sleeping with lots of girls on whom that sort of thing works, or for short term dating.

So? Your morality doesn't have anything to do with what works in the real world.

Since you have described yourself as "not dating much" it is absurd that you would pretend to know what does and does not work in dating. Seriously, how do you at one moment talk about how you don't get out much and at the next talk about how you KNOW when, where, and for whom PUA tech works?

So are tips like,

PUA tech is not a list of tips.

You would know that if you had EVER researched it.

Do you want me to provide you with a reading list? I will. Maybe all this is just a cry for help ;-P

my personal philosophy is to be honest from the get go so that there are no surprises.

How's that working out for you? Are you happy making other people uncomfortable? LIFE is suprises. You can't get rid of them no matter how blunt you are.

You seem to forget that the PUA techniques...

Oh, yes. . .please explain PUA tech to me. I can't wait.

...involve two people. One on the receiving end of them.

LOL. . .Is that it? You set out to explain PUA tech to me and the most profound thing you can come up with is that there are two people involved?

Okay, I'll explain why that is funny.

Basic PUA theory explains that all the techniques work best with as many people around as possible. Basic theory also explains that nearly all of the things YOU think of as "pick up" happen BEFORE the PUA every pairs off with anyone. Most of the "game" is played in groups, the larger the better. So, please, try again to explain it to me.

there are some PUA [...] systems for women [...] I don't use them [...] But I do know them.

Cool. What are they called? Can you provide links?

I'm not saying that PUA techniques don't work... I'm wondering why a person who is looking for an honest, long term relationship would change his or her personality to please others, since it seems like that kind of action would just lead to disappointment and/or unhappiness.

Well, if you have a question you honestly want an answer to. . .that is a different thing entirely. Maybe we should start a seperate PUA thread.

Absolutely not. Unfortunately, most of the PUA dating advice that I've seen on these threads isn't useful for females.

That's cuz the gals don't want to hear it. I've tried. Others have tried. You just can't get over yourself long enough to learn anything.

So the strategies and issues I would like to discuss with regard to dating, while not exclusive of PUA tips like "make eye contact" or "don't tell racist jokes on the first date," go a little more in depth than much of what's been mentioned on the PUA side of things.

Okay, then it's settled. We'll start a PUA thread.

It's just that (like many of our male counterparts) we are picky as hell about our mates, often shy, not what the "typical" male wants in a female, and don't feel that it's right to try to fake at being someone we're not just to get a date [...] I wouldn't respect a man who wanted a dumb, docile, gullible, shallow girl enough to date him. Maybe a member of the PUA crowd can explain this to me?

You should definitely participate in the soon to be new PUA thread.

Lucid

02-20-2008, 06:58 AM

Blueblack, based on the nature of your posts and the shocking amount of personal attacks and emotionalism, I'd say it obviously offends you in some deeply personal way that I disagree with you on any points at all regarding PUA and, seemingly, everything else under the sun. So let me respond to some of your more blatantly ridiculous assumptions before you go back on my ignore list because of your inability to have a rational discussion.

Weird how your position only becomes nuanced after I point out that you don't know what you're talking about.

My position hasn't changed at all, I've just explained it in more detail.

You're still wrong. PUA tech works for everyone, in all situations. It is specifically tailored for men and parties, but the core is universal. BTW, it works because the core is universal. I though I probably needed to point that out.

It seems the "core" is what I'm saying is useful.

Yet you continually reject the whole system, only occasionally mentioning that some of it might work for someone every now and then; and then only when I call you out on being proud of the fact that you have avoided researching the topic.

Saying that parts of it are useful and that it can be useful for some people to get their foot in the door is rejecting the whole system? Are we speaking the same language? How about this? You just decide whatever you think will piss you off and pretend that that's what I'm saying... oh wait... you're already doing that. Well I can see that I don't need to be here for that.

I love how you even, at one point, quote me as saying "I'm not saying it doesn't work or isn't useful" in your post but continue in this "you dismiss the whole thing out of hand!" vein. You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

So? Your morality doesn't have anything to do with what works in the real world.

You're (as usual) missing the point.

Since you have described yourself as "not dating much" it is absurd that you would pretend to know what does and does not work in dating. Seriously, how do you at one moment talk about how you don't get out much and at the next talk about how you KNOW when, where, and for whom PUA tech works?

Since this statement is operating under the assumption that I think PUA doesn't work and is universally useless I'll just refer you (again) to the comments I've already made refuting that.

PUA tech is not a list of tips.

I know. But it's the tips I find useful. That's what I'm saying if you'd take a moment to try to actually understand my point instead of just assigning one to me and arguing about it, wasting both our time.

How's that working out for you? Are you happy making other people uncomfortable? LIFE is suprises. You can't get rid of them no matter how blunt you are.

Hmmm... how's it working for you blueblack?

Since most of the rest of your post was personal attacks and arguments based mostly in your emotional feelings about me personally, not anything I'm actually saying, I'm just going to leave it at that. It's pointless to argue with the irrational. :rolleyes:

Actually, since it came up, I don't date much by normal standards and I don't do it often, but I have dated about 15 men, had 4 friends-with-benefits and 3 serious relationships. The most recent of those lasted 2 years and ended in August of '07.

Vojnik

02-20-2008, 07:19 AM

Finding the right person to be good friends is difficult, finding the right person to date is much more difficult. For some reason everytime i choose to date them something seems to get in my way i.e parents, hell can a intj get a break.

Nyiah

02-20-2008, 08:34 AM

Thank you all for helping me out here...

So, I joined the PUA forum to see what it's all about. It's basically a question and answer forum to give men tips on how to deliver a good pick-up line depending on the situation and of course to give others good advice. Every man has the potential to become a good PUA and I'm sure it works.

The problem is that INTJ females (well I guess I should just be speaking for myself here) have a more difficult time than other females in recognizing pick-up lines and flirting in general. (Yes, I personally am that obtuse when it comes to flirting.)

Anyway, identifying body language works so much better for me. PUA work with words and I have a harder time deciphering what a guy means by those words. When I recognize his body language its much more definite. In some ways it's more... scientifically proven. For example if you're on a date and both of you drink at the same time, it's a strong indicator that the date is going very well. (Similar to the list Pavman gave on pg 3).

The major difference between body language and a PUA is that body language is an unconsciously mental action of how one feels and that is much more sincere than what a PUA does because his actions are deliberate.

Aurelia

02-20-2008, 02:30 PM

Hi, I was browsing the interwebs and found this nice community of similar-minded people and I'm hoping to find some answers. I'm a 25 year old INTJ female and I can't maintain a relationship, or start one (I can't recognize flirting or know how to flirt back for that matter). I've had maybe 5 relationships (the longest being 1.5 yrs w/ an INFP) and I ended all of them pretty badly, but in my defense I really did try to make it work! Well, I was researching this INTJ personality and one source said the best partner for an INTJ is another INTJ. Is that true? And with the world population being ~<1% INTJs, how am I suppose to find one?

Oh-- I did date another INTJ once. Unfortunately, neither one of us realized we were in a relationship. And I'm not sure if I had feelings for him. The other guys were some combination of F and E. It drove me nuts.

I'm not so sure that a relationship with another INTJ would happen because someone needs to take the initiative. I have found ENTJs to be attractive because they share so many of our traits BUT they are more apt to take the lead in initiating a romance.

blueback

02-20-2008, 02:31 PM

Lucid: I like that you stick to your guns, but I don't like that this topic is upsetting you so much. I started a new thread which you, and anyone else, can avoid or participate in as you see fit.

The major difference between body language and a PUA is that body language is an unconsciously mental action of how one feels and that is much more sincere than what a PUA does because his actions are deliberate.

Everyone values good intentions.

But how do you judge someone's intentions? You seem to think that the message communicated through body language is only sincere if the person who owns the body is unaware of what it's doing. What about you? You know about body language, so are you insincere?

What if a person, maybe quite like an INTJ, read a book about body language. They probably don't remember very much, but maybe a few little tips stuck with them like if a woman crosses her legs towards a man it means she's interested in him. So, if a woman knew about that body language code, and wanted to show a man that she was interested, would it be insincere of her to cross her legs towards him?

Nyiah

02-20-2008, 09:02 PM

But how do you judge someone's intentions? You seem to think that the message communicated through body language is only sincere if the person who owns the body is unaware of what it's doing. What about you? You know about body language, so are you insincere?

What if a person, maybe quite like an INTJ, read a book about body language. They probably don't remember very much, but maybe a few little tips stuck with them like if a woman crosses her legs towards a man it means she's interested in him. So, if a woman knew about that body language code, and wanted to show a man that she was interested, would it be insincere of her to cross her legs towards him?

Certainly someone can "fake" body language, but I'm not sure why he/she would want to. When I am on a date, I do not pay attention to where I place my hands or how I cross my legs. On a date, I'm usually engrossed in the conversation and I would assume that my body language, whatever that might be, comes naturally. I'm not aware of what kind of body language I'm signaling out and I'm also not aware of my date's actions. When I think back on the dates I've been on, I don't remember how our feet were positioned, I remember the conversation.

I have read many articles about body language, yes, but not because I want to mimic them on a date. I read them because I find it interesting how humans unconsciously send these signals out when he/she is attracted to another person. If someone is on a date who is aware of body language, and is thinking to herself "oh, I better cross my legs towards my date to express how much I like him", then wouldn't that be called acting, since she is consciously planning to make those moves? Very unnatural. (And it probably would be considered a bad date because she is completely self-conscious of herself.) Again, I have no idea why anyone would do that.

Hmm.. how do I judge someone's intentions? I judge them by what my date says. How he answers my questions, how interested he seems in what I say... etc. That's just me though.

iamnotspock

02-20-2008, 10:00 PM

Lucid

02-21-2008, 08:33 AM

So no more PUA discussions here. That is good. And for any guys that are hard up there is Lucid's sage advice:

If you want sex, just get a friend with benefits....

Got that, guys? If you want sex, just go ask a female friend to serve it up for you on a regular basis no strings attached.

Ha ha... do *any* women here get why that advice qualifies as "female logic" from a guy's standpoint?

Didn't think so.

Wow, iamnotspock. I've obviously done something to deeply offend you on a personal level. I apologize for upsetting you.
I've had 4 friends-with-benefits arrangements in my life. I'm still friends with all of them. Nobody got hurt or emotional or herpes. And this arrangement is common for the people I know. It's weird to me that you think you need to lie to people or to be someone you aren't to have sex.
I think the fact that you think a friends with benefits arrangement is as ridiculous as you apparently do shows how little you understand about women, or maybe that the only women in your life are... well, different from most of the women on this board, and most of the women I've known in real life. Maybe you need to find a new group of females to hang out with.

rwyatt365

02-21-2008, 08:59 AM

I've had 4 friends-with-benefits arrangements in my life. I'm still friends with all of them. Nobody got hurt or emotional or herpes. And this arrangement is common for the people I know. It's weird to me that you think you need to lie to people or to be someone you aren't to have sex.
I think the fact that you think a friends with benefits arrangement is as ridiculous as you apparently do shows how little you understand about women, or maybe that the only women in your life are... well, different from most of the women on this board, and most of the women I've known in real life. Maybe you need to find a new group of females to hang out with.
Lucid...your circumstances, and the circle of friends that you have are not unusual, or ridiculous - but they are well outside of my range of experience! :embarassed:

When I was "lookin for love" none of my female friends was as "accommodating" as the females that you know. At the time I would have given a kidney for friends like that!

Lucid

02-21-2008, 09:19 AM

Lucid...your circumstances, and the circle of friends that you have are not unusual, or ridiculous - but they are well outside of my range of experience! :embarassed:

When I was "lookin for love" none of my female friends was as "accommodating" as the females that you know. At the time I would have given a kidney for friends like that!

When were you "looking for love"? My impression is that the social acceptability of the "friends-with-benefits" dynamic is a relatively recent development (in the last 10 years or so).
Also, maybe I should make it clear that not all people, male or female, will be interested in the friends-with-benefits thing or capable of maintaining a sexual relationship without becoming attached emotionally. What iamnotspock iseems to be interpreting as a mandate on my part was merely a suggestion and a question to thod about his reasons for his sexual practices. Iamnotspock seems to be making the argument that such a situation is out of the question for the majority of people, and I'm trying to illustrate that it's not as unusual as he might think.
To me, the friends with benefits arrangement makes the most sense because it's readily available, free and enjoyable as well as safer both in terms of reducing one's chances of contracting diseases and in terms of not being robbed, raped, kidnapped, stalked or killed, than sex with random strangers. However, I am perfectly willing to agree that such an arrangement is not possible or practical or desirable for many people for a variety of reasons. I'm not going to tell people what they should be doing with their genitals or what should work for them, I'm just making a suggestion.
With respect, it may be that such a relationship is more possible for people in my age group or younger because we grew up with a slightly different social view of sex than people even 10 years older (or younger, who may have been raised with even more liberal views than I was) did. I'm not entirely sure that this is the case, , but it seems like a reasonable guess.

Solaris

02-21-2008, 09:23 AM

I find others attach to me more than I attach to them. This then, is the reason I avoid such arrangements. As much as guys want to think this sort of thing is not based in emotion for them, it can just as easily be based in emotion for them as it is for women. Reversed, women can be just as prone to men as just wanting to get laid with no emotional involvement. I just find that, sooner or later, emotion gets involved, and it's not good.

rwyatt365

02-21-2008, 11:15 AM

When were you "looking for love"? My impression is that the social acceptability of the "friends-with-benefits" dynamic is a relatively recent development (in the last 10 years or so). [/COLOR]
[…]
To me, the friends with benefits arrangement makes the most sense because it's readily available, free and enjoyable as well as safer both in terms of reducing one's chances of contracting diseases and in terms of not being robbed, raped, kidnapped, stalked or killed, than sex with random strangers. However, I am perfectly willing to agree that such an arrangement is not possible or practical or desirable for many people for a variety of reasons. I'm not going to tell people what they should be doing with their genitals or what should work for them, I'm just making a suggestion.
With respect, it may be that such a relationship is more possible for people in my age group or younger because we grew up with a slightly different social view of sex than people even 10 years older (or younger, who may have been raised with even more liberal views than I was) did. I'm not entirely sure that this is the case, , but it seems like a reasonable guess.
My "Bachelor #1" days were in the late 70's, so I’m well over that 10 year horizon. But, at the time the theme of the day was (supposedly) "If it feels good, do it" - which confused the heck out of me because nobody seemed to want to "do it" with me!?? My opinion is that, even though I was in an allegedly open era, the mores of the social group that I operated within rigidly associated sex with intimate relationship (as opposed to a "friendly exchange").

I agree that the FWB arrangement makes a lot of sense for a group of like-minded individuals, for all of the reasons that you’ve mentioned.

Lucid

02-21-2008, 11:21 AM

My "Bachelor #1" days were in the late 70's, so I’m well over that 10 year horizon. But, at the time the theme of the day was (supposedly) "If it feels good, do it" - which confused the heck out of me because nobody seemed to want to "do it" with me!?? My opinion is that, even though I was in an allegedly open era the mores of the social group that I operated within rigidly associated sex with intimate relationship (as opposed to a "friendly exchange").

I agree that the FWB arrangement makes a lot of sense for a group of like-minded individuals, for all of the reasons that you’ve mentioned.

I agree that it has a lot to do with the social group one operates in.
In my area at least, there are tons of people placing ads on Craigslist for FWBs. Not sure how appealing that is either, but it's an option.

Not all of the people in my group of friends have had FWB relationships (and I certainly don't have them with most of my friends. That would be a very different arrangement indeed, imo :)), because many don't find them appealing or they don't know anyone they'd like to engage in that kind of thing with. But many of the people I know have at least tried it.

iamnotspock

02-22-2008, 12:16 AM

lordrrr

02-22-2008, 12:46 AM

A brilliant brain can be so hot. :p

Really? So, uh, what are you doing this Saturday?

Uytuun

02-22-2008, 06:36 AM

Working on a paper about the ethnic autobiography. :p

blueback

02-22-2008, 08:03 AM

I do think a lot of your posts are unnecessarily argumentative, judgemental, long-winded, and way off the mark.

Someone else thinks that Lucid...isn't.

Lucid (dictionary.com)
1) easily understood; completely intelligible or comprehensible
2) characterized by clear perception or understanding

Lucid

02-22-2008, 11:05 AM

Yeah, Lucid, you totally didn't get it. The point was that FWB is easy for women. Sex is always available for women. Not so for men. So to suggest to a guy to just get a fuck buddy when his problem is getting laid in the first place makes no sense at all. Do you get it yet?

This actually hilights the whole problem with women giving guys advice on getting laid and criticizing their techniques. Namely, women don't experience it from the same angle. For women sex is always an option. For men it is always a challenge. So you don't know what you're talking about. FOr the same reason, I won't give you advice on how to keep a relationship with a guy, get married, handle your period or give birth.

As for being deeply offended, you must be kidding. But I do think a lot of your posts are unnecessarily argumentative, judgemental, long-winded, and way off the mark.

Actually, it seems like you're the one not getting it. I'm trying to tell you that it is more possible for men to obtain fwb relationships than you seem to be willing to believe.

Honestly, for most men sex is also always an option. I'm sure that you could have sex with someone who wasn't very attractive or intelligent very easily. The same situation is true for women. It's not that we don't want sex, it's that, like men, we don't want sex with people we aren't attracted to.

I have to wonder if you're actually reading my posts. I say over and over again that I'm sure the PUA thing works for causal sex and short term dating. And I say that I realize a fwb isn't an option for everyone. Maybe that's why my posts seem argumentative, judgemental and way off the mark... because you aren't actually getting what I'm trying to say. :rolleyes:

Like Blueblack, you're totally disregarding my actual points and arguments and assigning to me views I don't hold and points I'm not making so that you can then dismiss them easily. I guess this is a lot easier than actually trying to have a discussion with me.

Quite honestly, I'm not sure why saying "Have you considered the fwb option" is construed as saying that it will work for everyone in all situations. And I think that the reason you get so upset when I say, "generalizations don't always hold true" is because your PUA thing works mostly on a generalization. If you throw out the validity of the generalizations then you have to admit that the PUA techniques aren't universal. I don't think that's such a bad thing. Any system has flaws, but I guess if you base as much of your identity and self image on this PUA system as you and blueblack seem to have done, it can be a problem. I notice that when people say "Ok, maybe it works, but I'd rather not lower my standards" you respond with, "so you're ok with being alone for the rest of your life??" as if PUA is the only thing that will work. Maybe that's the problem. You're reading my arguments as if they were your arguments.

Sorry you think I'm argumentative and judgemental because I don't agree with you on some points and am often critical of the things you apparently hold near and dear to your hearts. Guess you're not used to it.

blueback

02-22-2008, 12:37 PM

Like Blueblack, you're totally disregarding my actual points and arguments and assigning to me views I don't hold and points I'm not making so that you can then dismiss them easily.

Haha, go check out the "generalizations about women" thread. I think that's all I need to say.

Colette

02-22-2008, 12:40 PM

Haha, go check out the "generalizations about women" thread. I think that's all I need to say.

I'm going to give you one more opportunity to demonstrate that you can mount (and engage in) a rational argument, that follows linear principles of logic, and point-by-point refutation of your opponent's views (in this case Lucid).

If you can't do it (which I suspect is the case), you'll be being added to my 'list'.

blueback

02-22-2008, 12:58 PM

So. . .you're threatening to ignore me? Am I understanding that correctly?

Hmm, so if I ignore your challenge you'll stop seeing my posts. If I accept your challenge and fail the same thing will happen. If I accept your challenge and succeed then. . .you'll continue to see my posts. . .I guess my situation is win-win-win. I dunno, I've never bothered with the ignore list, so I'm not 100% clear on how it works.

How many people are on your 'list'? What sort of company will I be in? Can I contact you in any way to beg forgiveness?

Oh, I almost forgot to ask. What points of Lucid's do you want me to refute? I mean, I could search her posts back a long ways and just start at the beginning. The smileys she posts in response will probably make it worthwhile. I could start in the present and work my way backwards. I could refute them in alphabetical order.

Or, you could just give me a list, that would work too. I mean, with a punishment as harsh as 'ignoring' on the table I want to know what my chances are.

Hey! Then you and I could debate Lucid's points. Without Lucid involved I'm sure we'll reach a conclusion in no time.

Colette

02-22-2008, 01:28 PM

So. . .you're threatening to ignore me? Am I understanding that correctly?

Yup. Congratulations on reaching understanding so quickly..

How many people are on your 'list'? What sort of company will I be in? Can I contact you in any way to beg forgiveness?

At the moment there are three. They are people whose views are either (a) so retarded; (b) so extreme and myopic; or (c) so offensive to me, or another group here; that they do not merit even having me taking the trouble to see that they have posted (let alone read the posts). It's a useful function, to the extent that it avoids the potential for flame wars here.

Oh, I almost forgot to ask. What points of Lucid's do you want me to refute? I mean, I could search her posts back a long ways and just start at the beginning. The smileys she posts in response will probably make it worthwhile. I could start in the present and work my way backwards. I could refute them in alphabetical order

No need to take that smug, supercilious tone, in order to enhance your own ego and your sense of being 'in control' of the argument. I respond only to rationality, not to condescension. Address post #124 - that would be a good start.

pavman

02-22-2008, 01:35 PM

I :love: this forum!

Yup. Congratulations on reaching understanding so quickly..

At the moment there are three. They are people whose views are either (a) so retarded; (b) so extreme and myopic; or (c) so offensive to me, or another group here; that they do not merit even having me taking the trouble to see that they have posted (let alone read the posts). It's a useful function, to the extent that it avoids the potential for flame wars here.

Wouldn't that make you close-minded? To think that one's posts in one thread automatically discounts their posts in other threads, especially those not related to the offensive thread in question?

Seems a bit irrational to me. But then, I'm a guy :p

Not to worry ... she won't read this because I'm on her ignore list!

thod

02-22-2008, 03:44 PM

xanodel

02-23-2008, 09:35 AM

I agree ignoring posters means you cant follow a thread as people respond to comments you don't see. It seems highly emotional like a toddler throwing a temper tantrum. If a poster is able to incite you on every single topic then there is something between you that I do not understand. Nobody is able to raise such emotional responses in myself.

I disagree. It's perhaps more childish to continue a debate, leading to an emotional flame war which would never be resolved simply because of differences in principles and perspectives. If you can't even start on the same footing, what's the point of a debate, considering a shared perspective as a starting point does underlie a debate.

At this point, there is no debate, it's a quibble quabble squabble. It's starting to approach the Jerry Springer variety, and if you can't end it politely, at least you can ignore each other right instead of throwing chairs and punches?

PRBori

02-23-2008, 12:26 PM

Dating is not something fun for me.. Gladly most of my relationship always lasted over 2 years with some exceptions of course, but I like long relationship.

From my relationships I learned to never ever compromise on what I want from a men. As others indicated men tend to be afraid of intellectual women, so sometimes we settle for less, but that's a huge mistake.

After 5 years in hell married to someone that didn't meet my qualifications and who practically sat on his a$$ all day while I worked 10 to 12 hrs, I ended up being the bread-winner. The worse part was that he didn't have any goals or plans in life, just wanted to have fun and yeah.. watch pornography all day long (Shemales) to be exact..

Anyway, he's finally out of the way and I'm back to dating. I must said is not fun and I'm not willing to lower my qualifications ever again, so if things don't work out I rather be a single mom until I die than go thru hell again. This time around I tell the person who wants something with me straight exactly what I expect from him, and if he doesn't like what I said, hey there's the door... move on.

That's just the type of attitude I have now, I'm not willing to settle down for anyone that doesn't confort to my qualifications or that can show respect.

Right now I'm in a long distance relationship... but we are both extremely direct and clear with each others. Is a good way for testing how serious someone is, and so far it's working. When we met I told him what I wanted, he actually spoke to his parents about me and I spoke to his mom 3 months after knowing him. We hardly see each other, but we talk on the phone every weekend. I'm not worry because I know he's extremely busy trying to get his company together, and there is respect from both sides. It can be 3 to 6 months before we see each other but I know and he knows that the minute he goes around and sleeps with someone I'M GONE, there will be absolutedly NO COMMUNICATION between the two of us ever again.

Very simple for me the RESPECT I give, I MUST GET BACK. RESPECT is on my top list, follow by TRUST and COMMUNICATION. Those are extremely important for me in a relationship, if they don't exist along with the other traits I'm looking for, I'm not interested. Simple as that...

Colette

02-23-2008, 03:08 PM

From my relationships I learned to never ever compromise on what I want from a men. As others indicated men tend to be afraid of intellectual women, so sometimes we settle for less, but that's a huge mistake

Yep - this has been an issue for me many times in the past. INTJ women (if they are intelligent/intellectual) need a man who is secure enough in himself and his own ego, to accept that his partner may be equally (or more) accomplished and competent than him, in some or many areas.

After 5 years in hell married to someone that didn't meet my qualifications and who practically sat on his a$$ all day while I worked 10 to 12 hrs, I ended up being the bread-winner. The worse part was that he didn't have any goals or plans in life, just wanted to have fun and yeah.. watch pornography all day long (Shemales) to be exact..

Well this was my marriage exactly (including duration of 5 years). He didn't watch porn - more sport, I guess, and various other self-indulgent pursuits, at a time when I really needed him to be pulling his weight (as we had two small children). I too, was the major breadwinner, always, throughout the marriage.

That's just the type of attitude I have now, I'm not willing to settle down for anyone that doesn't confort to my qualifications or that can show respect.

He knows that the minute he goes around and sleeps with someone I'M GONE, there will be absolutedly NO COMMUNICATION between the two of us ever again.

Ditto (to both of these statements) - except I'd use "conform", not "confort" :p