Trust of doctors' assessments?

[Rick]

I responded to another thread which made me think of this.

I don't generally trust doctors in their ability to figure out what is wrong with me or others - unless it is obvious (broken bones or something that is obvious to anyone).

A little supportive history may be in order.

When I was a kid, I had no energy. My mother took me to a doctor who said I was anemic. So, I had to eat liver or spinach at least one meal a day for a LONG time.

When I was 28 I still had no energy, and my wife urged me to go to a doctor. He said I had the Epstein-Barr virus. Wait a year or so and it would fade away.

When I was 35, I had a severe sore throat, looked in the mirror, and saw discoloration. I thought...strep throat. I went to a doctor who said, no, it was a yeast infection (no jokes, ya'll). He said a throat yeast infection was only common with people who had HIV or were diabetic. I'M STRAIGHT and monogomous. Anyway, I was checked for HIV and it was negative. A spot check with a glucose meter didn't show anything unusual.

When I was 36, I happened to be visiting family. I had had a "rash" on my lower legs. I visited with my diabetic uncle. He was wearing shorts and reached down to scratch his legs. I looked and bingo. The same thing. I researched, and the rash is called urticaria.

I walked into a clinic and told them I wanted a 5 hour GTT (glucose tolerance test). When they began arguing with me about it, I told them I didn't want any discussion - just do it. They did.

For anyone not familiar with this test, you fast for 12 hours prior. Then, at the clinic, they draw blood, you drink a very concentrated glucose (sugar) solution, then they draw blood once an hour for 5 hours to check how much glucose remains in your blood.

I'd go in, they'd draw blood, then I'd go out and sit in the car for an hour. I remember very clearly that 3 hours into the test, I was sitting in the car and began to shake severely and couldn't hardly stay awake. I was sitting there grinning and almost ready to laugh because I knew I had figured out what the doctors hadn't been able to. When I went in for the next sample, they looked at my condition and asked if I wanted to stop. I said no. I got better for the 4th and 5th hour samples.

When the results came back, it showed that blood sugar levels were my problem. That was enough to get them to send me to several specialists. I had EEG's, CAT scans, and all kinds of endocrine tests. They didn't figure out what is causing it, but I'll keep my own counsel and research.

My point in all this is that the doctors had no success whatsoever, except with the tests I requested specifically.

I don't trust them to do so.

Ironically, a few years before, I had went to an Amish doctor. I told him nothing, just let him examine me. He used a magnifying glass to look into my eyes, and told me right away that I was pre-diabetic and needed to cut sugar from my diet. He also did something else "strange". He choose several herbs and set them near my knee. He was looking for some sort of reaction, but I don't remember what. When I asked what he was doing, he said he was letting my body tell him what it needed.

He was closer to the mark than the "educated" doctors. A good friend at the time told me a story. She had a friend who had cervical cancer, and the MDs had given up on her. She then went to the Amish doctor who had taught the one I saw. He cured her completely.

A lot of this is a rant, but it is also intended to get across my outlook about the medical profession. I'm disappointed with these "professionals", despite TV shows idolizing them.

What does the INTJ community think of doctors? Heal yourself or let them?

[polysylvester]

No one is going to be as interested in your well being as you are! I want to understand and be in control of anything that is directly affecting my well being. I've managed a medical clinic for the last 12 years, so I've seen quite a bit. My faith in MD's is very selective. There's a joke I've heard quite often: What do you call the person who graduates at the bottom of their class in medical school? (Doctor!) Have you had a hemaglobin A1-C test? It tells you if you've been having blood sugar excursions over a fairly long period of time.

[Rick]

I have not and I should. That test rings a bell.

If it shows problems, does it point toward the cause or just tell you that there is a problem?

[Firelie]

I'm pretty healthy, but I'd go to a doctor if there was something seriously out of the ordinary that I couldn't figure out myself.
I try to avoid medications, though, and I think if a doctor prescribed any long-term medications for me, I'd probably try to find a different way to heal. I'm quite sure that things can be fixed naturally with a little preparation and paying attention to the body.

[HackerX]

He was closer to the mark than the "educated" doctors. A good friend at the time told me a story. She had a friend who had cervical cancer, and the MDs had given up on her. She then went to the Amish doctor who had taught the one I saw. He cured her completely.


I think the difference is not in the style of medicine practiced, but the experience that the Amish doctor would have had.

I have found, that if the doctor I go to (and I don't go to a lot of doctors) is older, then they're generally far more experienced and will diagnose based on this, instead of the "expert systems" that they use these days.

The fact that the doctors you went too couldn't even diagnose diabetes is disturbing though.

I'm not against medicines, but will avoid anti biotics if I can.

[polysylvester]

I have not and I should. That test rings a bell.

If it shows problems, does it point toward the cause or just tell you that there is a problem?

Hemaglobin A1-C is used routinely to monitor how well diabetics are keeping their blood sugars controlled. It will tell you if you need to monitor your blood sugar and intervene to control it.

[pavman]

My last doctor I didn't trust. I base the level of skill of the doctor on results. When I was told "there's nothing that can be done about it" or to do something I've already tried, I then lose respect for the doctor and pretty much don't go.

I have a new doctor, but haven't setup an appointment... I'm kind of lazy/apprehensive when it comes to that...I think the negative reinforcement from my old doctor doesn't help my motivation either.

[Santana28]

well, to be honest - i've never been to a doctor without having already known the diagnosis in advance. i last walked into an ER and told them i had an ectopic pregnancy. they laughed at me when i told them i wasn't in any pain. well, i was right as usual.

the problem is with our current system it is nearly impossible to spend enough time with a doctor to genuinely work with them to figure out the problem. i'm talking general office visits. to me, a good doctor is one who trusts his patient's intuition and willingly dispenses whichever prescription is required ;)

[Zilal]

That is a tough experience and I understand your not wanting to trust doctors.

I've had mixed experiences with doctors, but have had a handful of them I could tell were very smart and knowledgeable. Do I trust doctors in general? I wouldn't answer either yes or no to that question. I trust some of them to put out their best knowledge, intellect and effort for me. Do I trust them to diagnose me properly? Not entirely, and I don't think I should expect them to. No doctor's going to know everything. But you can find very smart people who will keep trying until they find out what's wrong with you.

I've dealt with a couple rare conditions that took a while to diagnose. My thoracic outlet syndrome, I brought up the symptoms to a couple doctors over the years before I got one who said, "We have to look into that, let me send you to a specialist." The ehrlichiosis I just had a few months ago, my primary care physician didn't think to test for, but a doctor at a walk-in clinic did.

(For the curious, thoracic outlet syndrome is where the nerves/blood vessels in the shoulders are being pinched--in my case by extra ribs (!)--and ehrlichiosis is a tick-borne disease.)

[The Forsaken]

NEVER TRUST YOUR DOCTORS. They aren't heroic gods and supermen. They make mistakes like everyone else. Most of them are idiots like most of everyone else. They're only doctors for the money, or because their parents wanted them to, or because they think that it's a "respectable" profession. If they ever became a doctor to "make the world a better place" they would be in Africa. Sure, they got a medical degree, but does that mean? WHAT DOES THAT MEAN???

They don't have time to actually bother with your problems as they have plenty more people they need to steal from. Their greatest fear is getting sued. They don't care about you.

Why the hell should you trust a person who makes a living out of your illnesses????

[Vergil96]

I don't trust doctors. They almost always get crap wrong. Or they do procedures again and again until they get it right. I am a hypochondriac so I tell them what I think it is and they test for it. I am ALMOST always right. Though when I make mistakes I am way off. Based on your expierence I now trust amish doctors.

[dweller]

I don't trust them too.

Had experience that they only worsen my state during half a year and then I asked my friend to reccomend me some herbs for my ailment. It has been cured completely during week.

Also I had another similiar experience that they only trying to guess what is wrong with you.

[Kris]

I am usually more confident with google than I am with most GPs I have visited. I have a permanent reminder in a deformed knuckle on my right hand how inept they can be. It should have been pinned but the doctor just cast it and it healed improperly. I also have a scar on my hip when the family doctor administered a needle into my hip bone that gave me a cyst when I was a baby.

[wittykitty]

Interesting thread. My current doctor's practice is basically run like a machine. You get in, get out, all within 15/20 minutes. I'm thinking about changing. I find that if I have something wrong with me, I'll research as much as I can and tell them what I think it is. I mean in all honestly, does anyone here have a doctor they feel really checks up as much as possible on you? I almost feel like check-ups are a joke, but at the same time if its a hibernating serious issue are you supposed to wait around until you start feeling its negative effects? Who knows. Perhaps the occasional requesting of various tests is really the way to go.

[Blowfish989]

I do not deify doctors, no. I never thought of this as an INTJ thing--I thought it was because I actually had four doctors in my family and knew all too well that they were only human--but perhaps it's both.

[reb]

Rick, if you go look at my posts over the past year, you will see what i think if you have the patience to wade through my ranting. in a nutshell, we were born with brains; it pays to use them to the maximum of their capacity; when i have relaxed my guard with doctors,they have tried to vioxx me or some other bs. one of my principles is 'no one else will give as much of a shit about me as i do'. sometimes, that principle is false; most times, it is correct.

[Prunesquallor]

I trust doctors, just not blindly.
They have more medical education than I do; I have more knowledge about myself and my symptoms.
I consider it almost teamwork. We both supply knowledge.

I've certainly had difficulties - chronic pain disorder is a hard thing to convince people of especially when you're a kid and they don't want to give you drugs - but at least doctors know it's real and are less irritating than the average condescending healthy bastard person.

Everyone makes mistakes but I don't consider that a reason to mistrust them. I trust them to try. I don't trust them to succeed in all cases, because holding people to insanely unreasonable standards and then getting bitter when they fail to live up to them seems....ineffective.

[INTx]

What does the INTJ community think of doctors? Heal yourself or let them?

Interesting story, and yes, I do not trust their conclusion. I prefer to be given all the facts and then argue the possibilities with them (since they certainly have a superior database, but not necessarily a superior logic).

Also, I pretty much stopped going to the doc, since most of the time her reaction was "oh it is an allergy", and then tries to give me something for it which has worse side effects than whatever symptoms I am having.

[Deliberator]

Especially with such vague symptoms (fatigue is just about the worst) you have to be thoughtful and educated about your health in trying to figure something out.

Every year from about July to mid-September I feel really tired. I need extra coffee just to get me through the day. I need lots of sleep. I cannot exercise without my heart going crazy. If I stand outside in the sun I may feel like I'm going to faint. My ears seem to make a lot of wax. I get restless legs and muscle twitches. One day it will be debilitating, the next I'll feel pretty good.

Any doctor I've told has no damn clue what this is. Eventually after observing these patterns I've concluded that it is some kind of immune reaction to a seasonal outdoor mold. I don't get the traditional allergy symptoms, so there's no telling what allergy treatments may do. Doesn't matter, I still have tried anti-histamines and allergy shots, to no avail, so now doctors don't tend to think it's allergies and that I'm just a hypochondriac.

My mother and father both have terrible allergies, and my father says he gets the same "July Syndrome" that I get. The problem with trying to educate myself on it is, nobody seems to know a god damn things about the immune system and what all happens when it goes wrong!! So I'm stuck guessing. No happy House episode for me.





Deliberator added to this post, 9 minutes and 6 seconds later...

to me, a good doctor is one who trusts his patient's intuition and willingly dispenses whichever prescription is required ;)

Same here. I may take an opinion from them now and then if I haven't read up on something... yet.

[Monte314]

I like my doctor, and have great respect for him.

I chose him carefully (age, gender, med school, practice group, hospital affiliation, etc.)

He doesn't waste time during our visits, but he doesn't seemed rushed, either. Before I go in for a visit, I type up everything I think he should know (how I've been feeling, any life events, questions, observations, BP history, sleep history, etc.) The first two or three minutes of the appointment, he just reads through it, making notes and asking questions/making comments.

This really saves time; and I've found that this way, I don't forget anything. My wife can add things to this list, too. My doctor adds these lists to my medical file, so both sides of the "conversation" between us are in there. If something comes up between appointments that I want to discuss with him, I make a note to add it to the list for the next visit (otherwise I'd forget it... and it might be significant).

[phej]

I like my doctor, and have great respect for him.

I chose him carefully (age, gender, med school, practice group, hospital affiliation, etc.)

He doesn't waste time during our visits, but he doesn't seemed rushed, either. Before I go in for a visit, I type up everything I think he should know (how I've been feeling, any life events, questions, observations, BP history, sleep history, etc.) The first two or three minutes of the appointment, he just reads through it, making notes and asking questions/making comments.

This really saves time; and I've found that this way, I don't forget anything. My wife can add things to this list, too. My doctor adds these lists to my medical file, so both sides of the "conversation" between us are in there.

You have a form for yourself? Can I have a copy of the form so I can use it next time I visit my Dr.? Or is it just freeform text?

[Monte314]

You have a form for yourself? Can I have a copy of the form so I can use it next time I visit my Dr.? Or is it just freeform text?

I made it up myself.

I just created a WORD document that has a couple of lines for each area that I think is important. I have slightly elevated BP, so I put a line in there for that, for example. For each area I put in a sentence or two that describes how I'm doing in that area. There is a freeform block at the top where I just summarize how I've been doing in general since our last visit.

I put my questions at the end.

Bottom line here is that, the better your doctor understands you and your life, the better he/she will be able to serve you. I think some medical "mistakes" are made because our doctors are missing some piece of information that we just haven't provided.

The better your doctor understands you as a whole person, the better she will be able to make complex choices about diet, medication, lifestyle recommendations, etc. A competent doctor who understands you will necessarily be more "trustworthy" than one who doesn't; and that understanding can only come from you.

[rara avis]

Doctors are like mechanics, there are good ones and bad ones- ones with intuition and passion for their work, ones who are just punching a timeclock to get a paycheck, and worst of all, the ones who are severely overconfident in their own level expertise or understanding.

Except with doctors, the machine they work on is so much more variable and complex- and if there are mistakes or damage, you can't just go get a rental car to get by with. It can take a lot of work and luck to find the right one, and to provide them with the right information.

I think it's important to keep in mind that a doctor works for you, not the other way around.

[WoodsWoman]

I don't particularly trust my doctor - but I was well trained by an ENTJ who would fit right in here.

[Synamon]

You have a form for yourself? Can I have a copy of the form so I can use it next time I visit my Dr.? Or is it just freeform text?

You can do a search for a checklist, here's one (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)as an example.

I have a friend with a serious rare condition who takes a binder with her for her doctor/ER trips, my list is on a post it note.

[DanteFalling]

Some crazy doctor had me in as a 16 yr old for a physical as I was a new patient (insurance switch or something).

He told me he thought I had leukemia, sent me in for all of these tests, and then barely followed up, saying my white blood cell count was at 20,000, whatever that meant.

[Crazyblue]

I'm coming off a low point for something like this.

While I don't want to get into specifics, I think that a good doctor would actually *want* to figure out what was wrong with someone, not just shrug and list the symptoms as the diagnosis.

[LincolnBeardGuy]

No one is going to be as interested in your well being as you are! I want to understand and be in control of anything that is directly affecting my well being. I've managed a medical clinic for the last 12 years, so I've seen quite a bit. My faith in MD's is very selective. There's a joke I've heard quite often: What do you call the person who graduates at the bottom of their class in medical school? (Doctor!)

I agree 100%. (I also work in the medical field)

Working in the field has made me trust doctors even less. There are plenty who order our particular tests with no educated knowledge of them whatsoever. My advice to people is not to blindly trust any healthcare provider - there are plenty who are inept and plenty who don't care.

There's no way a doctor is going to accurately diagnose or treat all conditions in a 7 minute visit. An intelligent person with internet access can often diagnose just as well or better themselves with the exception being situations where diagnostic testing is needed. In theory a comprehensive logic engine like WebMD works better than any doctor with regards to subjective analysis of symptoms.

I've only been impressed with one doctor I've ever seen as a patient and have had very little success with them overall, so I choose to self diagnose and treat whenever possible. I'm fortunate to have access to a full suite of diagnostic imaging tools at my workplace without having to obtain a physicians order. I purchase medication from overseas pharmacies without a prescription. Sometimes this isn't even the most cost effective method since I have decent health insurance, but I'm morally opposed to the current healthcare system.

[daydreamer]

my experiences are consistent with yours. i think of doctors as only either effective or not in testing for things in their specialty, and writing prescriptions. i have found a few effective doctors, but i never trust a new issue of concern with only one doctor. the ineffective ones are a real drag too, aren't they?

[Jack Raiden]

Doctors are people, people make mistakes.

The body is a complex system, doctors only know so much.

Doctors are in a business, the business is to make money. Period.

Those are just some hard facts. You can argue that they have altruistic desires and purposes but those aren't necessary to be a doctor (they're definitely desired though!).

[curiousgeorge01]

Wow all these stories have me scared! I mean I was careful to start with but seems like not enough!

Speaking of Amish doctors, I do know some Asian doctors whose treatments are better than Western doctors. The only problem is distinguishing who's a real one and who's fake since there are a lot of fakes. The Chinese theory of medicine is more based on empiricism than science, they base it on what gets to the root of the problem rather than explaining it in stages. If you ask one why it works they honestly dont know, there are 'energy theories' on why but they can't pinpoint A (chemicals, nerves, muscles) causes B so B causes C and so on. From what I know, they also believe a lot in the healing powers of the mind in conjunction with what nature has. One of my friends who does this says that, for the most part, he doesn't believe cancer kills people, it's the fear and radiation that does.

[rhane]

I find this discussion very interesting and would like to offer a story...

A close friend of mine was doing work in Armenia when he made a comment to me one evening about something that upset him. A woman he had met had a very ill mother with Lukemia and my friend urged the woman to take her mother to the hospital for continued treatment. The woman refused, and instead insisted that an ancient remedy was the only way to help her mother. The woman explained... She took a small blade and cut a small hole in her mothers leg, then inserted a white bean into the incision - explaining that the bean would draw out the cancer and store it in the bean. By morning, the cancer would be gone. The mother died soon after...

I can understand peoples frustrations with physicians, and although I have been lucky in my own experiences I think it's only fair to point out that they are human and prone to errors. They get tired, lose focus, and sometimes get bogged down with stress. But there are many excellent ones who can offer superb care and make you feel comfortable and reassured. They may not be right 100% of the time, but good doctors can make all the difference in the world.

[admittedheretic]

Thanks to wealth of knowledge on health on the internet I feel I only need a doctor to preform tests or procedures that I can not.

I am shocked at how many people put too much confidence in their doctors because they won't spend a lick of time educating themselves.

There wouldn't be alternative medicine if modern/traditional medicine worked.