INTJs and Maths

[Uytuun]

So, considering our Ni and Te preferences, we should be good at abstract maths, right? But how did you come to understand mathematics?

I personally have only ever been confronted with highschool maths and have never managed to grasp the framework of the discipline. To me, maths has always seemed completely random. I didn't understand why my way of solving the equation was wrong and the teacher's way was right. Maybe it's because they never really explained what the essence of maths is and never gave us the fundamentals or even a list of what the symbols mean or something - it's essentially a very abstract and symbolic language, no? But they never treated it as such. They just started with certain parts of it, but I couldn't connect them to anything. Every maths theme was basically floating around completely isolated. I couldn't detect a pattern, I couldn't connect the dots, it was paradoxically the most chaotic subject in secondary school. I have to admit that once I had decided that language (in fact literature, a major difference, but I've always had to do both, even at uni and I've always excelled at both) was more my cup of tea, I never really bothered to invest a lot of time in maths. But if I can deal with advanced abstract linguistics and abstract theories and philosophies, why not maths?

Where did I go wrong? :p

[AgentofGaming]

Yes we can be good with math.

However:
To be good at math you need (I learnt the hard way).
1) A good foundation (if you did bad last year, don't expect the missing concepts to go away)
2) A good teacher (self-explanatory, or you can replace with a good textbook)
3) Doing the homework (math needs practice, we all remember what we do all the time, math is something where just understanding the basics is not enough)

Now laziness is enough to ruin 3) then 1), and repeat over and over.
Which results in a hate for math.

[Kotetsu]

I was good at maths during the earlier stages (say everything before complex trigonometry), but now it is easily my worst subject. I just finished sitting my preliminary exams for my five subjects and I already know which one I struggled in; maths. The main problem for me, I think, is being unable to understand th language of what I'm being asked to do. I find it very difficult to solve problems using lots of variables and often the questions seem deliberately put in the most awkward way possible. People still think I'm good at maths though, and won't believe me when I tell them I find it very difficult.

[polysylvester]

I've always had a pretty easy time with math. The more abstract the better. Transformations into different domains is the closest thing I've seen to the practice of magic. Things like Laplace transforms and fast Fourier analysis are great. Being able to construct images from refected waves seems closer to voodoo than math, but it works!
I suspect my math skill has as much to do with male pattern baldness as it does INTJ. The best math whiz in school was bald by the time he was 20.

[coffeeloverfreak]

I've always found math to be my easiest subject, and while I stopped pursuing it after a point because it got to a point where there was no more practical application to my life, it was always the subject I could do well in with hardly any effort. It just came easily to me, I guess. I was in advanced math streams all the way through school, I completed my college math in high school, and by the time college hit, I could ace calculus, linear algebra, etc. in my sleep. And even though I no longer study math, I think my mind approaches other things in life in a very mathematical way.

From what I've seen, math is something that either you 'get it' or you don't. Grades in math courses tend to be very bimodal - a whole bunch of people getting As, and a whole bunch of people just barely passing or failing, and not much in between.

The reason for this is that there are two ways people approach learning math: conceptually and by memorization. Those who learn conceptually - like me - need to understand the underlying concepts, and then can apply them to any problem or situation. You'll never see a top math student memorizing a list of formulas, for instance. Why bother, when you can just derive them as you need them?

Whereas people who try to approach math the same way as they would, say, history or biology, tend to really struggle, because they're looking for patterns. They're trying to memorize a formula and a type of problem, and associate that formula to that problem. It's very limiting, because the minute something small changes, they no longer know what to do and they're back to square one.

I'm not implying that one way of thinking is any "better" or "worse" than another. Some people learn by remembering patterns; others learn by understanding underlying logical concepts. I always struggled in the memorization classes, for example, because my brain refuses to work that way.

Even in math, I learned calculus in high school with one teacher who explained everything in-depth. Then I had to redo the course in college (idiots didn't recognize the credits) and I had a frustrating prof who taught by memorization. I remember one instance where I got marked down for using different notation to solve a problem, for godssakes! I mean, who cares if you call it X or Y, if you get to the same answer? Sheesh. But this prof frustrated me to no end because he used to teach math in the way of "whenever you see a problem that looks like this, remember to use this formula". Ack!

If math's not your subject, you're probably better off not asking the math brain in the class for help, believe it or not. Their way of explaining things will probably make little sense to you. Instead, ask someone else who learns the same way as you but seems to have a better fix on the material. Unfortunately, however, if you've always found math a struggle, you probably always will. People who are good at math usually don't work very hard at it (maddening as it probably seems) because it's like athletic ability; your mind "gets" it without you having to force it.

[robin.]

I hate math and I am terrible at it. I think the two go hand in hand. I am definitely one of the people who learn math by memorization...I hate math too much to give it any more consideration. I do wonderfully in classes, but that's not because I like the subject, I just like the As.

It's not that I don't like the difficulty of it; I am quite willing to throw myself into a hard subject, but only if I like it or if I think it will be particularly useful to me. Math fits into neither of those categories for me. I understand that some professions need advanced math (calc and up), but I am going to be a biochemist. I will need to know how to count and do simple arithmetic. Calculus will be of no use to me (although it might to a pure chemist...but then again there are computers for that now.) I am much more willing to learn math in a physics class, though, because then it actually seems useful to me. Pure (as opposed to applied) math is a waste of time to me.

[pavman]

Yes we can be good with math.

However:
To be good at math you need (I learnt the hard way).
1) A good foundation (if you did bad last year, don't expect the missing concepts to go away)
2) A good teacher (self-explanatory, or you can replace with a good textbook)
3) Doing the homework (math needs practice, we all remember what we do all the time, math is something where just understanding the basics is not enough)

Now laziness is enough to ruin 3) then 1), and repeat over and over.
Which results in a hate for math.

This is so f'ing true. I was horrible with math because I had a horrible foundation in it. I did ok until middle school, where I was put in an advanced math & science class (note: I was much better at science and social studies/english than I was @ math). I'm more comfortable with it now, especially after re-learning how to look at numbers (Speed Mathematics Simplified To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).

That being said, I did learn this about myself in college...when studying structures (I studied architecture, but didn't actually go into the profession...structures is basically 2nd-level calculus, bending, moments, load calculations, etc.), I would cram my a$$ off for the final and dream about numbers... I would usually pull a solid B/B+ on the final and pull a B in the class (the final would pull my grade up from a C). It was amazing. I never mastered math because I was never taught it properly from the get go (thank you US public school system). Not every student learns the same things the same ways...

I've noticed something similar with programming...and almost anything where I have to master something. With programming, I was horrible at it in college. I even had a girl doing my homework for me because I was inept. I kept working at it and working at it on my own, via Perl (thank you Larry Wall), literally dreaming about problems and solutions, until one day it all just clicked and made sense. The brain is an amazing organ. Now I could program in any language because I've mastered (or so I believe) the fundamental underlying systems behind programming.

Ironically, I now think about doing things that are waay too convoluted (but efficient) in programming. For instance... I've found ways to write variable hashes/variable variables in perl that allow the program to write its own variables when the need arises...how kewl is that?!

Perhaps this is why we are the Master Minds.

[Octavianus Caesar]

I know i could have been good at math, I just never had a good teacher that taught it.

[PortInStorm]

I do really well in school, but my math scores are abysmal. As I said in another thread, it's the only thing that I can't ponder and figure out about myself. I've had good and bad teachers, tutors etc. It's not just the phobia part of it- even when I'm comfortable and not being tested, I don't always know the math language, I can't figure out what math tool to use for which question (can't generalize), I can't remember the gains I made previously, I make simple calculating errors, I can't see it in my head.. etc, etc. Obviously, I have no problem with abstraction, so I think I have a disability in it (as defined by a wide discrepancy in the subject of concern and all the rest of academics. Ex. dyslexia is defined that way, I'm sure dyscalculia is as well). I guess I already knew I had a problem. But a serious one- I've given up trying to fix it. My only real Waterloo.

Well, I can do geometry.:undecided:

[thegnat]

Someone mentioned "You are either good at math or you aren't" or something to that effect. However, I believe it goes something like this, "Either you're intimidated and come into it thinking you can't do it, or you come into it open minded." The people who come in with the negative attitude don't expect anything but failure, so why try? I believe if you're open minded enough you can learn math. Especially if you push yourself hard if you aren't too natural at it. Of course it does take a certain amount of skill but at the lower levels of math you can basically force yourself to learn it. I pushed myself hard with it before high school. Then it was caaaaaaaaake. Of course I've always had a bit of a natural talent for it, which helped, but at first I was a lot slower to pick it up. I prefer upper level math. The stuff we do in quant....aaah....nice stuff... And of course now it has an application for me which is great.

I've had a numeric memory and I'm able to twist and turn things and see where math problems are going, etc in my head very easily. My numeric memory is getting a bit scratchy though :\ I'm saying it's due to having so much other information stored in my head...

[Antares]

I was always bad at math until 8th grade where I met this teacher who was really good at putting things in an interesting way that excited my love for math... Well... Algebra. I'm doing horrible in Geometry at the moment. I can say that for Algebra, my grade was always above 94%, but for Geometry, it's always 80 - 95%. Is Algebra more 'N' or Geometry?

I'm good at mental maths though :D The speed of my 'CPU' surprises even the best of math students in my grade. I love it when they turn and gasp. Makes me seem good at the subject. I should have skipped Geometry this year and take Algebra 2/Trig. My GPA! :scared:

[INTJ]

...how did you come to understand mathematics?

:wiseguy: Lots of rote memorization.

(Rote learning is a learning technique which avoids understanding of a subject and instead focuses on memorization. Although it has been criticized by some schools of thought, rote learning is commonly used in the areas of mathematics, music, and religion.-Wikipedia, )

[JTG]

I guess i was just a natural at math. I'm surprised at how many people here hate math, honestly. I remember in sixth grade i figured out the geometric formula to give the measure of angles in a regular polygon with n number of sides. I was ecstatic, and then when i got to high school geometry in 9th grade (after taking algebra a year early, getting high school credit in 8th grade) i found out that the formula had already been discovered, and was expressed using a slightly different notation than i had been using.

I was heartbroken D:

[Uytuun]

To be good at math you need (I learnt the hard way).
1) A good foundation (if you did bad last year, don't expect the missing concepts to go away)
2) A good teacher (self-explanatory, or you can replace with a good textbook)
3) Doing the homework (math needs practice, we all remember what we do all the time, math is something where just understanding the basics is not enough)


I had absolutely no foundation, since I'd given up on maths before secondary school. This explains a lot. :shakehead:

The main problem for me, I think, is being unable to understand th language of what I'm being asked to do. I find it very difficult to solve problems using lots of variables and often the questions seem deliberately put in the most awkward way possible.

I can relate...I don't understand the language either. They never explained the "grammar" or "vocabulary" or "idioms" of maths.

conceptually and by memorization. Those who learn conceptually - like me - need to understand the underlying concepts, and then can apply them to any problem or situation.

I'm clearly a conceptual learner, but they didn't really allow us to look at maths from a bigger picture or underlying concepts perspective, so I was forced to go through "whenever you see a problem that looks like this, remember to use this formula", which I hated. And I wasn't talented and/or interested enough to reconstruct the underlying principles on my own.

avoids understanding of a subject and instead focuses on memorization

The horror. If I don't grasp it, then I can't use it, I'm afraid.

[Tokey41]

Math was too boring to grasp my attention and thus I never gave much effort in learning the material. I can see some people seem to relate to that. I choose to take courses like psychology or philosophy instead which require just as much abstract thinking but allow more creativity and freedom of expression, with math it just seems like the answer is set in stone and you have no room to really think outside the box and improve upon the answer.

[Scorne]

I've always had a dab-hand in Math, but I've been programming since I was 9 in various languages and most of the physics are 3D based so I've gained a slight knack in school (Thank you hidden talent).

[AgentofGaming]

Actually not liking math is pretty common in my Electrical and Computer Engineering class and Engineering has foundations in math and science.
Our second semester had devastatingly bad calculus profs for every section.

Electromagnetic Fields Class:
Prof says " Now do any of you guys remember Taylor's Theorem?"
*whole class nervous stares and gasps*
Prof says "...well you can apply that here to the field of a ring... don't worry I'll do it quick, sorry for bringing up the painful memories"

[coffeeloverfreak]

Well Einstein was notoriously bad at math (well, by his standards I guess) so I suppose it doesn't take a math genius to be a physics genius.

[PortInStorm]

I think saying everyone can learn math if you try hard is like saying everyone can sing if they try hard. Well, yes, you can open your mouth and sound comes out, and you may improve slightly with practice. However, if you're tone deaf and lack a natural sense of rhythym, you'll never really now how to sing in the generally-held sense of the word.

It's like asking a stroke victim to try harder to move their paralyzed side. Yes, the plasticity of the brain will allow the individual to regain some movement, but it's not like practice brings them up to the level everyone else is at, or that it will ever come close to being easy or natural. Their brain just isn't structured that way.

I was recently googling into Dyscalculia Syndrome. Very interesting. A quote:

"There are a great number of students who have serious difficulties in learning mathematics, but find the rest of academic subjects easy. These students have high IQs, are excellent readers and creative writers, and learn quickly. They are frustrated by a paradoxical condition. Superior performance is easily demonstrated in thinking, verbal, reading and writing skills, and in every subject where these skills are the predominant modes of learning and assessment. But when it comes to any subject that requires understanding and application of the language of mathematics, they fail miserably, to everyone's surprise. (Newman 1998) These students may become ill, disruptive, easily frustrated, and may use their creative abilities to avoid tasks (Baum 1990, 2) involving mathematics.

Most gifted children teach themselves to read before they are 6, some even reading between the ages of 2 and 4. Gallagher contends that once basic reading skill is attained, the child is able to advance his intellectual breadth of knowledge on his own. He will usually excel in verbally dominated areas like social studies, English, and science. (Baskin and Harris 1980, 38)

Mathematics presents a different case because basic skills are dependent upon rigid sequential mastery. It is difficult to advance independently in arithmetic because much guidance is required, whereas skills in logical math reasoning allow for autonomous progress. (Baskin and Harris 1980, 38) Learning disabilities in gifted children are frequently not discovered until adulthood. (Baum 1990, 2)

Silverman contends that this discrepancy between reading and mathematical ability is due to advanced visual-spatial ability with underdeveloped sequencing skills. This results in difficulty learning math and foreign languages the way they are typically taught. (Delisle and Berger 1990)"

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[Avenger]

I never fully grasped the more advanced parts of math, and realizing that I would never do so, made me quit trying learning more and just do enough of it to pass the course.

[Lagawrd]

To me math was the most beautiful subject I had ever encountered. It is soo magnificent because it works. It works not only with numbers but with real life problems. Solving life problems reminds me of the way I solve math problems. Math isn't only numbers, It is characterized by numbers. Math will help you determine when something (be it a shape an idea or whatever) will change how much it changes, it will tell you when did it ever change and how much. Most of all it tells you the rate of change between every unit time that it is undergoing at that time. You will also know why it is not changing if that is the case. Perhaps it will tell why it would change later on and when. This is why all of the sciences are connected through mathematics. It is due to mathematical formulas that we are able to grasp the idea of time, space, force... you name it. We are able to calculate all these things using a single line on a paper.

Due to this, one with alot of intuition will not be able to solve hard mathematical problems. Math isn't seeing the big picture it is focusing on details. Math requires step by step procedures and not getting ahead. Solving a math problem and not knowing how you did it does not mean you actually did it. You must show the process and explain it without intuition. You must also have a clear understanding with the basics. However, intuition will help alot if you can do mathematics the right way. Intuition will help you make breakthroughs in science if you can solve problems the right way. Apply a new working idea to a well understood subject and then work at it step by step with rigorous effort. This is why i think INTJs will excel at math if they work hard for it. Of course it would have been better if thay had been working on it since childhood. One can still do good at it now, all you need is practice. As an INTJ, when I learn of something with great importance and recognize its potential as one of my future goals I would not care what i have to go through as long as I reach that goal. Besides, mathematics can also be practiced as a hobby, it will keep your mind mentally fit.

An interesting note; math in arabic is "Riyadiyat (pron. Ree-ya-Dee-yet)" (Spelling might differ due to the different alphabet), it means sport of the mind.

[ElstonGunn]

I stopped taking math classes after my junior year of high school. I did well in it up until the very end, and even then, I didn't do terribly, but I was never a big fan of it. I didn't see much of a point in a lot of it. Remember those word problems that were like "If Allen's age is two years more than twice Bill's age, and Bill is three years older than Mike, and Mike is 15, how old is everybody else?" Yeah, you could do all the math. Or you could just ask them. Or better yet, you could do something productive instead of futzing around with the ages of miscellaneous strangers. Is it really that important for me to know how old Bill and Allen and Mike are?

I realize that they're just trying to get you to understand the ways you can use the math, but why not make a more interesting problem? If math is used a lot in engineering, then use engineering to teach math. Wouldn't that make more sense than asking about people's ages and what times trains pass each other and other dumb things that have no effect on anyone's lives?

[INTJoe]

I was always a math wiz, but I'm not going to brag on this website, because I'm sure there are people way better than me. In fact, I never got to Calculus, but finished H.S. with Pre-Cal honors and did well. Got 660 on Math SAT. Again, there are those on this site that would put me to shame, but compared to the general public, I'm a math wiz. Additionally, I have the ability to do complex calculations in my head, which doesn't help too much in class (because you've got ample time to do homework), but blows people away in person when they throw numbers out then say "Let me grab a calculator" and I'm like "It's 87.375" or whatever, then they're like "Yeah...let me just verify...oh my god...what the heck...how did you know that?" lol.

I think INTJ's would have a great ability to perform math, as compared to most other types. What I appreciate about math, and what I'm sure most INTJ's do as well, is that the rules are concrete, and never vary. Numbers are numbers, and what happens to them through the 4 basic functions (-,+,X,/) never, ever changes. So we understand that we can dive right in, and nobody will pull the rug out from under us. Any math problem is seen as a challenge that MUST have an answer, and we will go to any length to get the answer. We have faith in numbers and so when the gauntlet is laid down, we have no qualms about diving in.

There are several things I did as a child learning math that got me into trouble, because they weren't protocol. For instance, I never mastered the ability to "borrow" for basic subtraction in grade school. I found that I could look at the two numbers and determine the difference in my head in much quicker fashion and just put the answer down and move on. Why borrow? The teacher would harp on me, but I'd be like "But did I get the answer wrong?" "Well, no, but that's not that point. You aren't doing it right." Here I am in 3rd grade so I can't really win a semantics argument with a grown woman, but whatever.

My father is also INTJ, and also has the same time-saving tricks that I know. He never taught them to me, I just naturally gravitated towards that way of thinking. I can say that being born good at math is something I am very glad for. Not because I did much with it, but because if I wasn't good at it, I think I would have really hated school because math is something that is easy to struggle with.

Spelling is also something I've always been good at (lol now watch someone will catch something I mis-spelled herein). I think for the same reason. Letters don't change. Spelling of words is concrete so I know I can devote time to learning how to spell and it's not going to change. Spelling bees, math speed challenges, and geography bees were always where I shined in school. I was also a trouble-maker so I relished in the times when my teachers would have to cringe and say "Joe has won...everybody clap..." or whatever teachers did back then. haha. I'm pretty sure a lot of teachers resented me. F*CK EM! :)

[denaria]

For me, maths (sorry, I'm English) always seemed to be more about being reminded of something I'd temporarily forgotten - it all flowed terribly easily. This may have been because both my parents were civil engineers, and maths was one of my home languages - although my sister (who has a PhD in veterinary medicine) really struggles with most aspects of higher maths. My degree (economics) had a high statistics & econometrics component which I also enjoyed. Now I have started a distance learning course with Britain's Open University - maths and computing. It's fun - well, for me, anyway.

[bubbles]

I think to do well in mathematics, one would need a strong background, great teachers, an open mind, and practice. When most people hear "math" or "science," they get scared away and think of them as subjects that only geniuses can handle. They see mathematics as a bunch of formulas.

I don't consider myself to be talented at math though I am competent at math. I've had good teachers in school and math, literature, and a few other subjects, which allow me to appreciate those subjects and even enjoy them. I'm not sure how cognitive processes can affect one's ability. I'm reasonably competent at math, yet horrible at physics. The only explanation I can think of is that I had very bad physics and chemistry teachers in high school (though I did have a great chemistry professor in college, but I didn't like the subject very much).

[AresX9]

I stopped taking math classes after my junior year of high school. I did well in it up until the very end, and even then, I didn't do terribly, but I was never a big fan of it. I didn't see much of a point in a lot of it. Remember those word problems that were like "If Allen's age is two years more than twice Bill's age, and Bill is three years older than Mike, and Mike is 15, how old is everybody else?" Yeah, you could do all the math. Or you could just ask them. Or better yet, you could do something productive instead of futzing around with the ages of miscellaneous strangers. Is it really that important for me to know how old Bill and Allen and Mike are?

I realize that they're just trying to get you to understand the ways you can use the math, but why not make a more interesting problem? If math is used a lot in engineering, then use engineering to teach math. Wouldn't that make more sense than asking about people's ages and what times trains pass each other and other dumb things that have no effect on anyone's lives?

To answer the problem you gave (:P)

Allen: 38
Bill: 18

Anyway, I just signed up for AP Calculus for my Senior year of high school. Like others stated, I'm a math guru compared to the general population. However, I'm still covering all of the things I missed in Algebra II such as rationalizing, because my classmates were so rude to the teacher.

[robin.]

I stopped taking math classes after my junior year of high school. I did well in it up until the very end, and even then, I didn't do terribly, but I was never a big fan of it. I didn't see much of a point in a lot of it. Remember those word problems that were like "If Allen's age is two years more than twice Bill's age, and Bill is three years older than Mike, and Mike is 15, how old is everybody else?" Yeah, you could do all the math. Or you could just ask them. Or better yet, you could do something productive instead of futzing around with the ages of miscellaneous strangers. Is it really that important for me to know how old Bill and Allen and Mike are?

I realize that they're just trying to get you to understand the ways you can use the math, but why not make a more interesting problem? If math is used a lot in engineering, then use engineering to teach math. Wouldn't that make more sense than asking about people's ages and what times trains pass each other and other dumb things that have no effect on anyone's lives?
Hahahahaha this post made me laugh. I wholeheartedly agree.

And just to make this post worth something, I definitely think there's a lot of merit to teaching math through subjects that actually matter. Math by itself doesn't matter...what matters is how you can use that math for interesting things. So I certainly think that people would probably like math much more if more real world examples were taught in math. And trains passing each other is NOT a good example. :p

[coffeeloverfreak]

Funny, I never had issues with problems like that. I guess I was always able to simply see them as illustrations of a concept, rather than as ends in and of themselves. The point of finding out Bill's and Allen's ages isn't to find out how old they are; it's to learn how to solve those kinds of problems. In real life, you'll use those skills more than you might even realize - even if they don't have anything to do with the ages of Bill or Allen. But you do end up using the skills of reading through a lot of seemingly useless information to identify the relevant points and use them to solve problems.

[ElstonGunn]

Funny, I never had issues with problems like that. I guess I was always able to simply see them as illustrations of a concept, rather than as ends in and of themselves. The point of finding out Bill's and Allen's ages isn't to find out how old they are; it's to learn how to solve those kinds of problems. In real life, you'll use those skills more than you might even realize - even if they don't have anything to do with the ages of Bill or Allen. But you do end up using the skills of reading through a lot of seemingly useless information to identify the relevant points and use them to solve problems.

That's my point exactly. If you use the math behind this kind problem a lot for real life, practical purposes, why is the practice problem focused on such a stupid/useless/impractical subject? That's kind of like teaching somebody to read by giving them an 5 year-old receipt for dry cleaning. Yeah, it'll help him become literate, but aren't there better things to read out there?

[coffeeloverfreak]

But why not give him a dry cleaning receipt? If he can read, he should be able to read anything, including that.

And in life, you very often need to sort through large quantities of mind-numbingly boring information to extract the relevant points to solve a problem. It's a useful skill.

[disquared]

Mathematics in K-12 and in the first two years of college seems more oriented towards S types than N types - lots of memorization, lots of algebraic manipulation, etc. A course in Real Analysis probably best reflects the type of work that true mathematicians do.

[Monte314]

Mathematics in K-12 and in the first two years of college seems more oriented towards S types than N types - lots of memorization, lots of algebraic manipulation, etc. A course in Real Analysis probably best reflects the type of work that true mathematicians do.

Indeed. I am an analyst, and often caveat results with "almost everywhere".

[salsipuedes]

Geometry, trig and statistics were great fun, but after I wasn't allowed to take pre-calc in high school despite my high grades (because I'm female--archaic idea, no? but it wasn't that far in the past), I pretty much said "screw you" about math.

I did look forward to taking calc in college, but needed to repeat the class twice to pass. What a mess that was. Calc was beautiful, but it was impossible to do it. I was sleeping three or four nights out of seven, had calc on Friday night and the teacher explained nothing. Then my father died and everything blew up.

Didn't matter, anyway, I was just a girl.

I'm not bitter.

[Monte314]

Geometry, trig and statistics were great fun, but after I wasn't allowed to take pre-calc in high school despite my high grades (because I'm female--archaic idea, no? but it wasn't that far in the past), I pretty much said "screw you" about math.

I did look forward to taking calc in college, but needed to repeat the class twice to pass. What a mess that was. Calc was beautiful, but it was impossible to do it. I was sleeping three or four nights out of seven, had calc on Friday night and the teacher explained nothing. Then my father died and everything blew up.

Didn't matter, anyway, I was just a girl.

I'm not bitter.

I'm sorry that you had such a terrible experience.

In my 30+ years of teaching mathematics (mostly college & grad-school level) I have noticed the following very interesting thing:

The very best performers, and the very worst performers are generally (though not always) male.

On average, the women as a group tend to outperform the men as a group.

I have come to believe that the reason women perform better as a group has to do with the kinds of courses I teach: advanced technical courses. My reasoning is that men take courses like this because they feel they are expected to in spite of what their interests and abilities are, whereas women take courses like this because of what their interests and abilities are.

[salsipuedes]

Monte, I wish you or someone like you had taught me. It would've been fun to be an engineer.

I didn't realize I had such strong feelings about it until I wrote that post.

It's OK. I'll be a mad inventor in my next life.

[Merle]

In my 30+ years of teaching mathematics (mostly college & grad-school level) I have noticed the following very interesting thing:

The very best performers, and the very worst performers are generally (though not always) male.

On average, the women as a group tend to outperform the men as a group.

I have come to believe that the reason women perform better as a group has to do with the kinds of courses I teach: advanced technical courses. My reasoning is that men take courses like this because they feel they are expected to in spite of what their interests and abilities are, whereas women take courses like this because of what their interests and abilities are.

This was/is true in my English Lit cohort also... and across the board in all subjects at my university... we had loads of classes and lectures for the women only to try and address the 'finals gap' wherein the men got proportionately more Firsts than the women... although as you said, they also got proportionately more 2:2's and 3rds... one of the explanations I heard for it was that men were more likely to take risks in their work... with the result that they produce more that is brilliant but also more that is rubbish. Also, that men had a more arrogant approach to writing essays etc... they state their opinions as 'fact' or as almost incontrovertible so that the marker subconsciously begins to agree with them...
whereas women tend to present their work more as part of an ongoing debate...
and to actually state in the essay 'this is what I think, here's why:... ... oh but this person disagrees'

... A guy would say ' this person says this... I think that is wrong, I am right, here's why:...'

We actually had classes on writing like a man, seriously!

[Tyrant Soup]

I was good in it, but never enjoyed it because I could not find much practical use for it.