Depression, anyone?

[Firelie]

How do you experience depression? Do you notice when you're depressed? How do you deal with it?

/go

[justmeiguess]

I don't have any particular problem with depression or anything, but when I'm down I tend to just withdraw into myself (typical introvert ::)) and hide away in my room or on the computer. I tend to try to read, go on forums or watch a film to take my mind off what ever's getting to me. Of course, woe betide anyone who tries to speak to me at such times because they're likely either to get a grunt in response or yelled at.

The more annoying times are when I feel (damn that word) like I want to do something but don't actually feel like actually making the effort to do it, if that makes any sense. Also, if I feel restless but I can't think of anything satisfactory to do. Then I tend to get annoyed at myself and just procrastinate, daydream and otherwise try to wait out the feeling.

I rarely tend to stay "down" for long, but then I don't tend to stay "up" for very long either, I tend to just be more laidback.

[Yersinia]

Depression? Well, I never had depression - there's no reason to feel bad. I try to see most things positive. When I feel somehow in a bad mood I tend to listen to music or go jogging. Afterwards I feel better :)

[thegnat]

I don't have any particular problem with depression or anything, but when I'm down I tend to just withdraw into myself (typical introvert ::)) and hide away in my room or on the computer. I tend to try to read, go on forums or watch a film to take my mind off what ever's getting to me. Of course, woe betide anyone who tries to speak to me at such times because they're likely either to get a grunt in response or yelled at.

The more annoying times are when I feel (damn that word) like I want to do something but don't actually feel like actually making the effort to do it, if that makes any sense. Also, if I feel restless but I can't think of anything satisfactory to do. Then I tend to get annoyed at myself and just procrastinate, daydream and otherwise try to wait out the feeling.

I rarely tend to stay "down" for long, but then I don't tend to stay "up" for very long either, I tend to just be more laidback.

Oh I totally understand that. That's pretty much exactly me. I don't usually grunt or yell, but I'll not speak in a good tone. I try to hide it but I really can't hide it that well.

I work out to de-stress myself. But that takes motivation. Sometimes, like today I just say "I will do it to destress and take a break." and I will. It'll probably be later at night but so what? I'll be staying up working on stuff anyway.

[TruorTupnm]

Depression? *Ick. *No thanks. *Seems useless. *I've never had it. *Had an I. N. F. J. mother who was all about depression. *Seemed to love the stuff. *Craziness. *With stuff that might depress others, I have mayhaps gone a bit numb or detached from? *Watching the others, wondering why they get themselves sick over things. *I jump away. *If it's something that I somehow caused, though, I wouldn't come close to depression. *Mostly just, "Argh! *Why did I do that? *How could I have known? *What signs were there? *Garn."

[Bossy Mom]

Depression is not a choice. It seems to be a family problem on my father's side. When I was a little girl, my grandmother would go to bed and not get up. My grandfather took her to the hospital where she had shock treatments. They helped her mood, but when she got older, she lost much of her memory. I'm glad they don't do that much anymore. A brother I love dearly is bipolar (but no one would notice since he takes his medicine everyday).

I had depression when I was first diagnosed as an alcoholic (21+ years ago). I took medicine and had therapy, which helped me tremendously. Last summer I got it again. I felt tired but couldn't sleep. I lost interest in reading and quilting. I lost interest in my job. I tried to control my daughter's life. I went to therapy and now I also take Lexapro. I am much, much better. I am not controlling my daughter and I'm the avid reader and quilter again.

I am not ashamed of this, nor am I ashamed of being a recovering alcoholic. It's called genetics. At least I did something about it and didn't suffer or continue to be a "helicopter mom."

[Ryokurin]

I've been through it all. Most of it when I thought I was just a weird guy destined to be alone. Its kind of weird. I wouldn't call it bi-polar but when it happens, i'm down pretty hard but usually I'll hit a wall or a come to some type of conclusion that the reason why I'm depressed is stupid and I'll come out of it.

Actually, come to think of it I think its more me feeling down about my situation than a depression and usually its a lack of a relationship. I'm still not in one but I've grown quite indifferent about it and I'm actually the happiest I've been in a long time.

[TruorTupnm]

Yikes. Well, sure, I understand that some can't help it. My mother took some kind of medication for it. I just didn't have much patience for it. Whoops? Not attempting to help yourself out? Not changing habitses? Why?

[aelan]

Yikes. *Well, sure, I understand that some can't help it. *My mother took some kind of medication for it. *I just didn't have much patience for it. *Whoops? *Not attempting to help yourself out? *Not changing habitses? *Why?
it's not that you're just not trying to help yourself and not trying to change your habits; It's an overwhelming inability to even try. *Everything seems pointless, making it really difficult to get motivated enough to change the situation, if you even know what's wrong that needs to change. *Sometimes it's a chemical imbalance, environmental, something in one's unconscious, issues from childhood, etc. *It's not always within the person's immediate control.

[Rei]

I don't think I've ever been seriously depressed.
But I've thought too much about depressing things before. It was not good and very hard to pull out of because I just keep wanting to resolve it but I can't.

I'm generally in more or less of a stressed-out/'depressed' state most of the time anyway.

[patobrocks]

I get depressed, and at times, it seems catatonic; not really, but I am listless.

Sometimes depression is good, because I get to work out a problem and then the depression is over; although for me the lifting depression leaves a hangover-like feeling for a couple of days. I don’t know, but I am diagnosed as bipolar, and it has taken years, but I finally accept it. I took medicine for years, but it never really worked and has caused me many problems. Then one day at the local library, I stumbled on this book

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That totally changed my life. I am leveling out, losing the weight that I gained on meds, and even my shrink is getting excited from the results. I still can feel the depression knocking on my door. It has been that way lately. I can still function, but at times, these waves wash over me, and I know that it is depression trying to take hold, but it passes.

Besides the Omega-3, I try to exercise—walk or use the Gazelle, and I believe this helps the mood. I take a lot of B vitamins, C and E. This bipolar business is serious for me. I have been retired, on SSDI, for 12 years, and they approved me in 10 weeks. I keep getting better, but I wait for the Omega-3 to quit working, but it’s fish oil, so maybe it’ll just keep plugging away.

I know finding this site has helped me immensely. Sometimes I take a few minutes every now and then and read some posts. I don’t care what the topic is, but the way people talk about helps me identify with the group, although sometimes I test as an INTp, if that makes any difference.

I don’t always agree with everything all the time. However, I am not always consistent in my behavior anyway.

[patobrocks]

Depression is not a choice. *It seems to be a family problem on my father's side. *When I was a little girl, my grandmother would go to bed and not get up. *My grandfather took her to the hospital where she had shock treatments. *They helped her mood, but when she got older, she lost much of her memory. *I'm glad they don't do that much anymore. *A brother I love dearly is bipolar (but no one would notice since he takes his medicine everyday).

I had depression when I was first diagnosed as an alcoholic (21+ years ago). *I took medicine and had therapy, which helped me tremendously. *Last summer I got it again. *I felt tired but couldn't sleep. *I lost interest in reading and quilting. *I lost interest in my job. *I tried to control my daughter's life. *I went to therapy and now I also take Lexapro. *I am much, much better. *I am not controlling my daughter and I'm the avid reader and quilter again.

I am not ashamed of this, nor am I ashamed of being a recovering alcoholic. *It's called genetics. *At least I did something about it and didn't suffer or continue to be a "helicopter mom."

Yeah, I met Bill almost twenty years ago.

[Henry]

How do you experience depression? *Do you notice when you're depressed? *How do you deal with it?

/go

I've battled a chronic depression for 11 years. Some months mood is OK and even moderately elevated, other months its bad, some months its really bad and I struggle to get out of bed in the morning. Right now I'm struggling to get out of bed in the morning.

Everything just feels black or grey right now, and utterly hopeless. I find myself ruminating about how hopeless, pointless and utterly without meaning life is, and how shallow and plebeian most people are. I also find myself lashing out at random strangers with incredibly rude comments. Nobody ever does anything becuase I'm tall, powerful, and smart, but I always feel like a dick afterwards.


I'm really in the wrong career for me and that's what's driving the current depth of the depression. I'm handling all my company's SoCal attorney represented homeowner's insurance claims, and its not rewarding, am being treated like shit, there's no meaning, and the experiences are generally very shallow. Unless I'm dealing with a competent attorney (rare), its not even slightly challenging and my involvement is generally summed up by "oops, he underpaid this" or "we are not affraid of litigating inflated claims". I'm transitioning out of it but it pays a lot of money and the transition period sucks.

I'm also in a so-so relationship. I just, for whatever reason, have trouble really connecting with my significant other because she demands so much of my time and attention, and gets frustrated if I get distracted or lost in thought for even a few seconds. There are good elements and she deeply cares (or needs, not sure which, maybe both) me, but its hard to maintain any of my other interests while in the relationship with her.


Therapy, drugs, and exersize help mitigate the depression but stopping any one of the 3 tends to create problems. Being in a sexual relationship seems to help as well. Joseph Campbell always makes me feel better, as does going to the movies (provided it isn't crowded).

[toonia]

I'm in a clinical depression at the moment. This does not mean that I have habitual negative thoughts. It is a brain chemistry issue that has limited by ability to focus and attend to numerous details. It has also diminished my energy levels and has increased my chronic pain issues. I know when I am depressed, and tend to know when it causes my thinking to become irrational.

To deal with it, I first try to make an accurate account of my limitations and cut those things out of my life that are exacerbating the stress. I try not to guilt myself when I fall short, but realize there are limitation issues at the moment. I also seek professional counseling as a way to help stabilize myself and to cut down on taxing the people closest to me when I am discouraged in my thinking. I will also be looking into the possibility of anti-depressants and into some medical tests regarding some of the physical aspects of my situation. I really need to exercise as well.

I guess when in a state of limited capacity, I try to figure out how much exercise and constructive work I can do, and hold myself to that even if it is in much smaller doses than when I am ship-shape.

[cielo market]

I think I'm more likely to suffer from mental exhaustion.

[qwerty]

The worst I've had was more a case of Post Traumatic Stress (twice in the last 2 years after some intense nights at work, both life or death and the last time I saved a guys life).

It's like body surfing a dumper. You start with the highest of highs which lasts for a day, the grass is at it's greenest and then boom your whole world collapses under you, tearing apart at everything you believe in. I remember those days so well, my mind would spin and I'd have difficulty standing or even facing my friends, huge rushes of panic would engulf me whenever I opened my mouth. You throat fills with acid and you feel like vomiting whenever you look at food.

Knowing and seeing the signs was the biggest help to me and I just kept it in my mind that I would be over it soon. It pays to take stock of your life when you're happy as it helps out a great deal when a dumper comes along :).

[chocky]

I find depression to be like looking at the world through a dirty window. Nothing sparkles. Everything is smudged, distorted and out of reach. The world seems too far away and too colourless to bother with. It's like sitting in a seeping pool of your own energy and watching it bleed away - not caring because it could be happening to some hypothetical other for all the motivation it arouses - the thick film of grime, the glass - somebody has put your senses over there and your body here and your mind rolls around on the floor looking for the exit sign.

[thegnat]

I think I'm more likely to suffer from mental exhaustion.

Oh I know how that goes. All too well. I'm to the point now when I'm constantly mentally exhausted.

[Wolfie]

Well I'm a teenager so I'm expected to have ups and downs caused by hormones. When I do feel depressed I usually play ragtime or hip-hop. That helps. I just sit and find the answers to my solutions while doing that. If I can't find the solution I usually just tell myself that the problem is illogical(even if it is perfectly valid) and get on with life.

[GOD]

I'll be writing an article covering this topic as part of my "codified theory" I am building...

If anyone has any stats on this topic as a correlation to IQ I would interested to hear...

[Bossy Mom]

Today was my last day seeing a therapist. I'm fine now, anyway. All she talked about were the fires we had a few weeks ago, and how she and her family were evacuated (twice). She finally got around to asking how I was feeling the last five minutes of the session. I know that many people need therapy, often for long periods of time, and shouldn't be mocked or derided for it. I just suffered a little bleep in my life, and now I'm ready to take on the world again. FYI, Lexapro worked for me and I had no side effects.

[MichaelH]

Celexa helped lift me out of a long-standing depression that cognitive therapy couldn't fix. Two days after I started taking it, my mood had completely changed. Chocky's description was apt for my personal depression. I simply could not see joy or happiness anywhere. Almost nothing could impact my emotions, and although as an INTJ that has some appeal, in real life it's probably the worst sustained emotional state imaginable. It really is like dying but staying physically functional.

Henry, I'm really sorry to hear you're in the state I was a year ago. Depression can keep you from connecting with your s.o. You'll spend time with her, but won't feel uplifted. Depression can cause that. Of course alone time is good too - we're INTJs - but the depression blocks off your positive feelings, so it's rational to look at the relationship and wonder why it's still around. I have been there.

The relationship can be a bigger problem if your other is an E. They respond to our natural need for privacy by seeking more attention and becoming more clingy. It sounds like this might be what is happening. Some time apart might not be bad just to help you both regain perspective. I know I only realized I missed my spouse after he went away for three weeks. It was two weeks of joyful decompression to one week moderate missing. Highly recommended. :)

Feeling Good by David Burns an amazing book for dealing with depression from the cognitive side. I can't read the whole thing - it's too freakin' upbeat - but in small doses it does wonders. Most chapters have some specific, rational, actionable, empathetic advice about dealing with depression. He knows because he's been there, and he's helped people who have been there. The book is a good tool, but it's possible (probable?) to need a chemical assist to break out initially. The book can help keep you level once you're there.

[The Many]

I have suffered through one serious bout of depression, it lasted for a couple of months and I was pretty suicidal all the way through it. Then I have been through quite some sessions of melancholy, and some other, shorter suicide-ish periods. I have, however, always managed to pull myself out of it without having to resort to either medication or therapy (something I am quite proud of), and I also think these periods have - oddly enough - strengthened me. If you never understand pain, you will never truly understand pleasure either, especially not in the wealthy parts of the world as of today where you get everything handed to you. And it has certainly been good for my creativity too.

[thegnat]

I have suffered through one serious bout of depression, it lasted for a couple of months and I was pretty suicidal all the way through it. Then I have been through quite some sessions of melancholy, and some other, shorter suicide-ish periods. I have, however, always managed to pull myself out of it without having to resort to either medication or therapy (something I am quite proud of), and I also think these periods have - oddly enough - strengthened me. If you never understand pain, you will never truly understand pleasure either, especially not in the wealthy parts of the world as of today where you get everything handed to you. And it has certainly been good for my creativity too.

I've always felt truthfully and honestly that "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger."

I also have had melancholic sessions (one pretty long one that I can think of - nearing depressive) but not full depression. Anymore I'm usually not super happy or super sad. If I do get emotional in one way it's more on the happy side, more kind of excited, maybe nearing super happy. Unless I'm kind of reflective and melancholic. But that's usually a short period of time. well i suppose any emotion for me is rather short lived anymore. otherwise i'm just kind of stoic.

[The Many]

I have suffered through one serious bout of depression, it lasted for a couple of months and I was pretty suicidal all the way through it. Then I have been through quite some sessions of melancholy, and some other, shorter suicide-ish periods. I have, however, always managed to pull myself out of it without having to resort to either medication or therapy (something I am quite proud of), and I also think these periods have - oddly enough - strengthened me. If you never understand pain, you will never truly understand pleasure either, especially not in the wealthy parts of the world as of today where you get everything handed to you. And it has certainly been good for my creativity too.

I've always felt truthfully and honestly that "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger."

I also have had melancholic sessions (one pretty long one that I can think of - nearing depressive) but not full depression. *Anymore I'm usually not super happy or super sad. *If I do get emotional in one way it's more on the happy side, more kind of excited, maybe nearing super happy. *Unless I'm kind of reflective and melancholic. *But that's usually a short period of time. *well i suppose any emotion for me is rather short lived anymore. *otherwise i'm just kind of stoic.

Well, yes. I agree. I'm quite happy (or well, content is perhaps a better word) I'm not very touchy-feely at all, it makes you able to get on doing things. Even when my emotions were screaming "It's all pointless! Commit suicide!" I was working my usual schedule, which I managed to do quite well (admittedly not at normal standards, but quite well) too. Not even my parents seemed to notice it. Of course, to turn it around, just before this period I was in love, which was more or less like this but the other way around. If love is like being drunk, it certainly has a nasty hangover. These are the two extremes though - most times I don't feel, I think. I suppose this applies to most INTJs too.

[PaulFrancis]

Been there, done that. *It sucked.

I am fine now though.

Real depression is more than just a state of mind. *It is an actual chemical/biological condition. *Simply thinking happy thoughts probably won’t really do anything.

As far as making that crap go away, I would tend to do the following:

1) If you are drinking alcohol, stop. *Alcohol is a major, massive depressant.
2) If that doesn’t work, add exercise to you weekly routine.
3) If you smoke cigarettes (I am guilty of that one), quit (I am planning on doing that one too).
4) If that fails and you are a guy over 25, consider taking tribulus terrestris or DHEA supplements. *You can get these at places like GNC, Vitamin World, etc. *I personally like Vitrix. *I should note a warning about option 4, DHEA and especially tribulus terrestris can seriously boost your libido if taken after following steps 1-3. *That may or may not be a good thing. *While a low libido sucks, random, spontaneous tent popping can get kind of awkward.
5) If all of that fails, try taking St John's Wort and/or SAMe supplements. *In addition to GNC, Vitamin World, etc, these can also usually be found at grocery stores.
6) If all of that fails, you will probably need to resort to the nukes. *In that case see a doctor.

[Vayate]

That's kind of a weird question for me, since I've had varying degrees of chronic depression since I was a little kid (20 now) and am just now pulling out of it. I do tend to sleep a lot and be generally unmotivated, not to mention spontaneously becoming varying degrees of angry and violent (not always physically). Yearly breakdowns that would last for weeks occurred too, though I think I'm past that.

[apotheon]

I also get chronic depression, also a never ending battle of PTSD from being in Iraq twice. The more time that I am locked in my own mind, will generally determine how long I will be depressed.

[Kfbr]

I live in the most depressed state in the Union, woohoo!

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I used to be down a lot, and sometimes when I drink I think about the past and that brings me down but not anymore. I think once we have a clear vision of our goals we are so self motivated there's no time to get depressed.

I'll never use prozac or anything that changes moods, don't trust it. Yes I know the contradiction with drinking, but its a once a week temporarily fun thing, not so I can survive the day :D

[shaforostoff]

if you got a depression, hang (or do some practical work) with ESFJ (preferably of another gender) and he/she will bring you your energy back.

[mrswentworth]

Ah. I had that in the midst of preapring for an examination. Totally couldn't do anything, like flip the books. Just really hated myself and all. I think cooking helped.

[Lucid]

I suffer from chronic depression. I take pills for it. Also, I find that if I get depressed for some (or no) reason, it helps to spend time with close friends. Increasing my level of physical activity helps sometimes as well.

[stasis]

How do you experience depression? Do you notice when you're depressed?
I personally tend to anhedonia most of the time. This causes me to become bored as an incessant matter of course, should my attention be allowed to drift. Otherwise the depression is like a dull sorrowful feeling underlying everything. There is an odd duality, I suppose, in being simultaneously miserable while you're enjoying yourself in a moment.


How do you deal with it?
I don't know to answer this question. Applied to my own experience with depression it becomes like asking a person how they deal with breathing. Does one even make an attempt to? It isn't something I can mitigate without antidepressant drugs, and those I am not fond of. I accept the existence of the depression and go on with my life. There are other things to do.

[Lucid]

It isn't something I can mitigate without antidepressant drugs, and those I am not fond of.

Why aren't you fond of the anti-depressants? I cannot function without them. That's why I started taking them. It would be ideal to be able to take care of it myself (since with or without insurance, pills are expensive and it's a bit of a pain in the ass), but found that I wasn't able to go to school or work or clean my house or anything else. The medication was really sort of a worst-case option. Fortunately mine have limited side effects and a generic brand. :)


I accept the existence of the depression and go on with my life. There are other things to do.

Agreed. :)

[stasis]

Why aren't you fond of the anti-depressants? I cannot function without them. That's why I started taking them.
I tried taking antis for the first time when I started college, both in the hope that they'd better equip me to consistently care about the uninteresting work and in order to see what all of those goofy grins and the big deal about being 'non-depressed' were about. I was prescribed Wellbutrin. The effect it had on me was very close to a total suppression of all background emotion, and I guess that "works".

As they were not happy pills, I still retained the same dispassionate self-disgust that I've always been prone to experiencing. They, for reasons I can not explain, also ruin my ability to be strongly creative. Completely ruin it. And that's one of my primary assets amongst a rather short list. I suppose that the manner in which antidepressants function is not well understood enough for them to be specifically-acting enough for me to fuss with. I can live with depression. Always have.

[Lucid]

I tried taking antis for the first time when I started college, both in the hope that they'd better equip me to consistently care about the uninteresting work and in order to see what all of those goofy grins and the big deal about being 'non-depressed' were about. I was prescribed Wellbutrin. The effect it had on me was very close to a total suppression of all background emotion, and I guess that "works".

As they were not happy pills, I still retained the same dispassionate self-disgust that I've always been prone to experiencing. They, for reasons I can not explain, also ruin my ability to be strongly creative. Completely ruin it. And that's one of my primary assets amongst a rather short list. I suppose that the manner in which antidepressants function is not well understood enough for them to be specifically-acting enough for me to fuss with. I can live with depression. Always have.

Yes, many people have to try several different kinds before they get something that works and functioning in the meantime, while experimenting with all these mind-altering drugs can be an issue. Luckily (for me... I guess), my mom also suffers from depression and so I just tried what she'd been taking since problems like this are often hereditary.
Wellbutrin is kind of a weird pill. My brother was on it for ADHD and now they prescribe it to people who want to stop smoking.

When at my lowest points I think the thing that kept me from suicide was the idea that you somehow lose if you die miserable and at your own hand. I can't really articulate the concept, so I'll stop trying.

I don't think anti-depressants are the answer for everyone. If you are functional and not a danger to yourself without them, then there's really no need for them.
I will say, though, that I definitely prefer not being depressed. I'm not happy all the time (although I am sometimes), but I'm not depressed either.

[Smacknrat]

I tried taking antis for the first time when I started college, both in the hope that they'd better equip me to consistently care about the uninteresting work and in order to see what all of those goofy grins and the big deal about being 'non-depressed' were about. I was prescribed Wellbutrin. The effect it had on me was very close to a total suppression of all background emotion, and I guess that "works".

As they were not happy pills, I still retained the same dispassionate self-disgust that I've always been prone to experiencing. They, for reasons I can not explain, also ruin my ability to be strongly creative. Completely ruin it. And that's one of my primary assets amongst a rather short list. I suppose that the manner in which antidepressants function is not well understood enough for them to be specifically-acting enough for me to fuss with. I can live with depression. Always have.

I don't know if this will help, but it's out there for you to look consider/rationalize. I'm no psychologist, but I think most here can at least relate. In the process of overcoming ones self, self-loathing has to almost become a goal. It is part of wanting to be more than you are.

Next, look into the ideas of positive disintegration. Even things/ideas like Plato's Cave help provide some perspective. Further, it might be the fact that you are gifted that makes those thoughts possible (existentialist thoughts?).

It isn't uncommon for drugs to make you lose your creativity, it's kinda what make them work i think. For example, Ritalin bonds to the same nueroreceptors as caffeine. You lose creative output (for me anyhow), but it makes me able to concentrate and crank out some serious output. When I take caffeine anyhow, never had Ritalin.

I've had moments of complete numbness, loneliness (another thread in this forum), and general downness/depression.

Usually, lack of accomplishment seems to be the primary doubt. Which leads to self-loathing further inaction and further inability to achieve. This just ends up being a downward spiral for a bit until either something is actually noticed by someone or I break for a month or two from anything and become a bit nihilistic.

So whatever was done before, no matter how extraordinary it is to other people, is mundane, obvious, status quo to you. New skills must be acquired and mastered. Eventually, you wonder why others are happy with what they are doing and why you simply can't be satisfied. More time taken. Overbearing yourself with work or goals you can't ever hope to reasonably finish.

Simple fact of the matter is that you probably are more capable than most people. You don't HAVE to feel happy about anything you do. Chances are people will never relate to you and the same vice versa. It's frustrating.

The nice thing about people that are prone to depression is that they actually have a realistic vision of themselves. That is, they tend to be more on the mark about their competence then other. It seems ridiculous. In order for someone to know what they are truly capable of, they can't be happy.

Smacknrat added, 3 Minutes and 29 Seconds later...

When at my lowest points I think the thing that kept me from suicide was the idea that you somehow lose if you die miserable and at your own hand. I can't really articulate the concept, so I'll stop trying.

When I was nine, I came to the conclusion that suicide was a selfish way out for the harm it does on others for your own satisfaction. That if you no longer want to live for yourself, then your life becomes for others. It's probably cheesy but it's always helped me in my low points.

[Lucid]

When I was nine, I came to the conclusion that suicide was a selfish way out for the harm it does on others for your own satisfaction. That if you no longer want to live for yourself, then your life becomes for others. It's probably cheesy but it's always helped me in my low points.

Here's what I never understood about that argument. Not to say that suicide is a good idea or that it doesn't hurt the people around someone who commits suicide, but isn't living your life for others kind of a miserable existence?
Also, If I'm miserable and want to die isn't it selfish of those around me to expect me to continue on simply so that they won't hurt, despite the fact that I'm in pain myself?
Those others don't have to live with (whatever it is that's making someone want to kill themselves), why should they have any say in whether it was "selfish" for someone to end their own life?

I'm not trying to invalidate your point. If it works for people then it's worthwhile (in this case), I've just never understood it.

[Smacknrat]

Here's what I never understood about that argument. Not to say that suicide is a good idea or that it doesn't hurt the people around someone who commits suicide, but isn't living your life for others kind of a miserable existence?
Also, If I'm miserable and want to die isn't it selfish of those around me to expect me to continue on simply so that they won't hurt, despite the fact that I'm in pain myself?
Those others don't have to live with (whatever it is that's making someone want to kill themselves), why should they have any say in whether it was "selfish" for someone to end their own life?

Sometimes, yes. Depends on the situation. But others don't typically know of your rationale or desire. The thing is that all beings suffer (of course.. and the context is important). So to claim one's own suffering as somewhat more significant or meaningful is a bit... self-limiting.

The internal dialog was somewhat lengthy. And it took some time to even come to that, but the gist of it is that a lot of random probability (genetics, people meeting people, wars, travel, etc) and a lot of non-existing probable life makes your own at least that much more special. "You" basically had to travel through time, space, and everything that could have destroyed your chance of existing to come to this point to setup a place for others after you.

And yes I'm aware that the two statements seem mutually exclusive or paradoxical, but I assure you they are not. =)

Really, the statement is for someone to make for themselves. No one is allowed to say that to anothe rperson, IMO.

[Lucid]

Sometimes, yes. Depends on the situation. But others don't typically know of your rationale or desire. The thing is that all beings suffer (of course.. and the context is important). So to claim one's own suffering as somewhat more significant or meaningful is a bit... self-limiting.

The suffering I'm most concerned with is my own. It's not that I (ever) thought that anything I've gone through is all that special or unique to me. I know everyone suffers. But their suffering is not my primary concern. Mine is.



Really, the statement is for someone to make for themselves. No one is allowed to say that to anothe rperson, IMO.

I agree, but it seems like so many do.

[Smacknrat]

The suffering I'm most concerned with is my own. It's not that I (ever) thought that anything I've gone through is all that special or unique to me. I know everyone suffers. But their suffering is not my primary concern. Mine is.

Naturally. When someone is in pain the only thing that matters is for it to stop. While all beings suffer, the individual experience is unique. For what it's worth, at least you get to experience it.

[The Many]

The suffering I'm most concerned with is my own. It's not that I (ever) thought that anything I've gone through is all that special or unique to me. I know everyone suffers. But their suffering is not my primary concern. Mine is.

Exactly what I was thinking when I was suicidal. That, and that I could kill myself to make others grieve - after all it was they who had inflicted the pain upon me, due to not teaching me how to live. I mean, since you don't choose to get born (mind, I was in my early teens at the time so I hadn't been developing anything of myself until that point - I have been suicidal later too, but my thinking was different at those times), it was all due to them that it happened, so it would be a good way to strike back.

But still, I came to the conclusion that there were things in Life which were worth clinging on to and essentially managed to pull myself out of it by myself. Learning to take a look around yourself helps a lot; I mean (and I've written this before in the "INTJs and death" thread), death is the ultimate release. Everything you do in life is something you are forced to do by your desires and your wishes. There is often pain in following them, but there is also an amazing amount of pleasure all around you, in emotions and sensations, in merely observing the beauty of existence itself. So until death, there is life, and Life is to be lived.

[Lucid]

In response to both the above posts, I think what it comes down to is deciding that the experience of living is worthwhile and realizing that a certain amount of suffering is part of that experience and, in many ways, is essential to that experience and to making it worthwhile.
I can't tell you how many times I've had a really awesome experience and thought to myself, "Damn, it's a good thing I didn't kill myself when I was 13."

[stasis]

I couldn't really care less about being accused of selfishness when it comes to the question of considering suicide. I am selfish. Moreover, I disagree with the argument from altruistic slavery. My life is mine alone to do with what I wish. I owe it to nobody, and recognize no external claim upon or possession of it whatsoever.

The only argument against suicide I personally accept (at the moment) is that suicide is a fundamentally irrational act. In killing oneself, one is seeking an end of whatever suffering or shame or problematic constant is plaguing them. But in seeking that end, one is presupposing that one can experience the fruits of an end. Experience requires the existence of consciousness; consciousness requires life; thus, a dead person will not know relief from suffering because there is no longer a consciousness that can know. It is impossible to benefit from the act.

The rational use of suicide lies completely in exercising control over one's life when one is being forced into a position where one no longer has control over it (an irrational position). In effect, one uses suicide to deny ownership to another. And I am not in such a position. Despite the background misery of it, I still have control over my own life. Therefore I make the effort to refrain.

[Smacknrat]

I couldn't really care less about being accused of selfishness when it comes to the question of considering suicide. I am selfish. Moreover, I disagree with the argument from altruistic slavery. My life is mine alone to do with what I wish. I owe it to nobody, and recognize no external claim upon or possession of it whatsoever.

Nope. We covered that though. I don't think anyone mentioned altruism. In fact I would be one to state that there is no such thing as altruism, only the illusion of altruism. So in a sense.. "Altruistic slavery" is in fact the selfish idea you're presenting. A person is deriving pleasure through the act for one's own benefit.

Next, "living for others" might be taken a bit too literally here.

Not that I have a single problem with what you said.

There are several points and counter points of course. The main points you seem to bring up are control and ownership. Why bother living if you can't exert your own control and ownership. That's the type of "living for others" I'm really talking about.

Edit: Just realized I repeated what you said. So addendum:
"Living for others" is a way to justify one's actions to continue to exert one's will onto the environment and onto others.

[Lucid]

"Living for others" is a way to justify one's actions to continue to exert one's will onto the environment and onto others.

You're talking about not committing suicide in order to control others?? :suspicious:

[Smacknrat]

I guess it's a long way off. Too many jumps I guess. Stealing from minds much greater than mine. The primary drive of animals isn't just the will to live, but the will to power. The will to live derives from the will to power.

I'm not going to pretend that any one thing is a catch all or that there is a simple explanation to the meaning of life (or even that I have the hairiest idea). I'm just sharing my personal thoughts for discussion.

As always, new perspectives only help.

[Obsidmus]

i'm fairly new here, but I couldn't help but read this one. Seeing as I was diagnosed earlier this year with depression and possibility of being bipolar.
However before the diagnosis and the counseling began I always seemed to feel ever so wretched. yes I had a problem with cutting, both to get myself out of the depression and when ever I got super stressed. Having an alcholic brother doesn't exactly help too much. So when I did feel the sadness or the rage coming on I would try my best not to let it over come me. But in the end it always did.

Nw with medication and the help of a wonderful counselor, I can actually control the sudden spells of depression. I've been doing my best to both analyze and redirect this sort of energyinto something positive. That and I have something to help remind me to stay grounded and help with that moment.

Uh, i'm not sure if I answered your question or not. Hopefully I did. If not feel free to say "hey dork, you forgot to answer" Or something along those lines. Hehee I tend to go off and tangents, and i'm not really sure if that's an INTJ trait or not!

[Tsuru]

I had a really bad episode of depression that basically stole 3 1/2 years of my life. I couldn't go to work or school (I dropped out of college) or even leave the house for the most part and was at risk of suicide for awhile. I'm sure if I didn't have parents to support me through that I'd be dead by now. It was very much like a physical illness - to the extent of my knowledge I literally had no experience or reason that caused it, but it completely took me over and I wasn't able to stop it. Like being chained to a sick and exhausted person and having 200 pounds of psychological sandbags tied to you. Pills have helped a lot (every waking moment isn't a nightmare anymore) but I'm still highly unmotivated and tired and unable to feel good most of the time. :/

Gee that was a tad personal. :P

[TerrySC]

I stumbled on this site while examining my lastest MBTI.........INTJ. 18 years ago I was formally tested as an ESTJ. I suffered some major head trauma in a motorcycle accident two years ago and have had bouts with depression for 15 yrs. Thought being here might help me make sence of it all. I've been taking meds for the depression on an off for 15 years. They help for a while and I either take myself off them because I've felt better for a long period,or they quit working, and I fall prey to the depression again. Nothing suicidal just a loss of enthusiasm in general. Kind of turn into EEore (spelling) from Winni the Pooh. I started seeing an endocrinologist after an MRI in which a growth was found on my pituitary gland. It had my hormones way out of whack, new meds helped greatly for a while but not helping so much now. I return for another MRI and blood test next month. We'll see what I find out then.

[BadMojo]

Sometimes i feel down, but only for a short while, since I'm pretty good to cheer myself up by doing something completely silly. But mostly, the reason why I get sad once in a while, is mainly because I hate staring at the same walls day after day.
My biggest dream is to travel the world, and sometimes I feel constrained, mostly by economy and family, so I can't just leave it all behind and go backpacking. So i guess it's natural for me find another "escape" which is through reading and writing.

[terencec]

I am depressed most of my life. Depression is not a big problem. Nervous breakdown + depression is a problem when under a lot of stress.

I am pessimist for reasons, so think about depressed things too. After living in depression for so many years, it is just my friend :)

Is INTJ type prone to depression?

terencec added to this post, 23 minutes and 8 seconds later...


If I'm miserable and want to die isn't it selfish of those around me to expect me to continue on simply so that they won't hurt, despite the fact that I'm in pain myself?


Lucid, I am late in this discussion. Reading other philosophy forums, people have the same claim suicide is selfish act. I come up exactly question as you (fyi, I do not recall having any serious suicidal thought.)

Do you know how other people explain your argument above? I would like to know.

[gzeus]

No thanks. Haven't gotten over my last one.

It might be that INTJs are prone to depression from time to time as they are such perfectionists and demand the same from people as from themselves. Needless to say they are therefore constantly dissapointed.

What is needed is a decrease in expectations of people and then you might even be surprised once in a while.

It helped me quite a bit to relax and not care so much.

[miaow]

Depressed yes.. but I am also easy to pick my self up and forget what i was depressed about.

Though just talking about this makes me sad again lol.
Im only a teenager nearly an adult but i find depression hard to deal with, talking with people doesnt really help as they dont understand what its like. At the same time its also seems the best to keep it within one self.

I find that makes us stronger because we develop a better mentality to deal with problems. Im not sure correct me if im wrong thats just basic opinion really.

[xhaan]

I get depressed often.
Not from a situation, or a logical reason, just a general depression... loss of hope, loss of will to do things I normally enjoy, I get a feeling of impending doom. It's hard to come out of, because I can't seem to control it, or reason why it is happening in the first place.

[TerrySC]

I think some people here think Depression is when you occasionally get the blues. It is not, yes you are blue but also are unable to just get yourself out of it. Xhaan explained it quite well.

I get depressed often.
Not from a situation, or a logical reason, just a general depression... loss of hope, loss of will to do things I normally enjoy, I get a feeling of impending doom. It's hard to come out of, because I can't seem to control it, or reason why it is happening in the first place.

Some have said it is anger turned inward or not released. All I know is that it is not something which is easily controlled. Often during my depressive episodes, I become lethargic or sometimes just sleep a lot to turn off my mind. Getting out and doing things seems to help but the depression itself makes getting out and doing things difficult.

I have found something of interest to those who do suffer depression and have not found a good solution yet. I have not yet tried this but am considering it. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[Des]

I can't imagine being depressed. I refuse to take part. I don't see how I could possibly get depressed when I have a good life, good health, a great relationship and many many things to be thankful for. Sad is different. Of course I'll get sad if I lose a beloved pet especially if I was attached. But depressed? Nah, I don't need that.

[TerrySC]

That's just it, depression doesn't give you a choice. Be thankful you don't have it.:thumbsdown:

[xhaan]

I think some people here think Depression is when you occasionally get the blues. It is not, yes you are blue but also are unable to just get yourself out of it. Xhaan explained it quite well.



Some have said it is anger turned inward or not released. All I know is that it is not something which is easily controlled. Often during my depressive episodes, I become lethargic or sometimes just sleep a lot to turn off my mind. Getting out and doing things seems to help but the depression itself makes getting out and doing things difficult.

I have found something of interest to those who do suffer depression and have not found a good solution yet. I have not yet tried this but am considering it. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'll have a look at that later, thanks.
I've been through treatment for depression, it's not nearly as bad for me as it used to be, but it's still somewhat of a battle... though I tend to not get so hopelessly down that I can't even take a step to do anything about it anymore, the episodes still can be very hard to shake, but at least they aren't quite as severe now.

[terencec]

I can't imagine being depressed. I refuse to take part. I don't see how I could possibly get depressed when I have a good life, good health, a great relationship and many many things to be thankful for. Sad is different. Of course I'll get sad if I lose a beloved pet especially if I was attached. But depressed? Nah, I don't need that.

It seems good life, good relationship, etc are subjective and relative to others. There are no absolute definitions.

So you meet your criteria you defined. Congratulation.

Can someone consider other people (or things) besides himself/herself and depress about something that is beyond his/her control?

[Kfbr]

Aim low, shoot high.

I may be down for a round but at this stage in my life, the fight will never die and I'll never let myself be depressed again. It's entirely illogical to me now, to waste time dwelling on whatever past experience/mistake that led me to be depressed in the first place. Learn from it and move on, life is too short to waste it pissing around your apartment worrying about things you have no control over.

[Antares]

I find that if you lower the expectations on most things, when it doesn't turn out the 'right' way, the disappointment is milder. Sometimes, I can't control my imagination and let it run away. I can be highly idealistic and when the bad news comes, the disappointment hits me hard. It's hard to get me depressed though. The only time when I was really depressed was over a love interest, which is stupid, really, because I think that I misread his 'signals' and put all of my eggs in one basket --- him. I'm often told that I'm premature psychologically and I took the crush far beyond what it's supposed to be for an eighth-grader (that's how young I was when the depression struck). I believed that I loved him, and I probably had, but that really taught me a lesson: Don't get your hopes too high on anything and you can avoid potential depression. I deal with depression by writing in my journal, (trust me, that's the only time I write) or composing poems and vignettes (I find it particularly easy when I'm depressed), taking solitary walks in natural environments or simply engrossing myself in other matters.

[Kfbr]

I find that if you lower the expectations on most things, when it doesn't turn out the 'right' way, the disappointment is milder. Sometimes, I can't control my imagination and let it run away. I can be highly idealistic and when the bad news comes, the disappointment hits me hard. It's hard to get me depressed though. The only time when I was really depressed was over a love interest, which is stupid, really, because I think that I misread his 'signals' and put all of my eggs in one basket --- him. I'm often told that I'm premature psychologically and I took the crush far beyond what it's supposed to be for an eighth-grader (that's how young I was when the depression struck). I believed that I loved him, and I probably had, but that really taught me a lesson: Don't get your hopes too high on anything and you can avoid potential depression. I deal with depression by writing in my journal, (trust me, that's the only time I write) or composing poems and vignettes (I find it particularly easy when I'm depressed), taking solitary walks in natural environments or simply engrossing myself in other matters.

Holy shit, you are incredibly insightful for a 14 year old, keep this attitude up and it will carry you far in life. When I think back to when I was 14.. playing Starcraft all day and trying to fit in with the skater crowd.. haha

[DeepPurple]

I was extremely depressed about 3 years ago and had a nervous breakdown. I read through several journal entries from about 3 years ago and even I didn't realize just how bad off I was. I actually didn't finish reading the entries. If I was a stranger reading those entries I would have been about 90% certain that the person writing them was no longer alive. I also played with the idea of committing suicide, mainly to punish other people. Not because I was afraid I couldn't go on living. I was also curious about death. I wondered if I would be able to come back and haunt people. Maybe find out what really happens when you die. I don't think I was ever going to go through with it though. I was most likely thinking about hurting people who hurt me. I actually ended up writing a Battle Royale story with my classmates as the students and that helped a little. For me writing was a much better outlet than physically harming someone.

I ended getting a program called attacking anxiety and depression from the midwest center. I knew I had depression, but I didn't know I had anxiety. However their customer service is crappy. They wanted me to pay an arm and a leg to talk to someone over the phone. After I had, in my eyes completed a milestone. I would never ever treat customers that way. There program was helpful though. I still feel anxiety, but I don't think I'm depressed. I am probably at the stage before depression and I have been there for the last year. Something about going to college in an almost depressed state seems like I am asking for trouble. When I initially entered high school my main motivation was getting into college. Getting into Hollins or Syracuse was very important to me. When I got depressed and my grades started dropping, at first it felt like the end of the world and then I just didn't care anymore. I still want to go to Hollins or Syracuse, but I plan on going to community first. Three years ago I had a full proof plan and I had to stick to it and breaking away from it and things that I hadn't anticipated really changed me. If I had gotten into Hollins or Syracuse, I would've probably threw myself off the roof of the dorms or something.

[terencec]

My depression does not affect too much my performance in school or at work (even sex). I would do poorly in school only when having the nervous breakdown due to tremendous stress + depression.

Just like you, I have anxiety problem, it has to be my brain intrinsic issue. I may be able to cure it by rational thinking but it is not that easy.

[yam]

I don't have any problem with depression. But sometimes I can be down because of my boredom(I am a person, who is easy to get bored... Anyone else??) or because I can't do something that I really3x want to do...(In some cases, I'm down because I'm a perfectionism...)

[Antares]

I don't have any problem with depression. But sometimes I can be down because of my boredom(I am a person, who is easy to get bored... Anyone else??) or because I can't do something that I really3x want to do...(In some cases, I'm down because I'm a perfectionism...)

Boredom? lol. I think I have a way out of it. When I'm bored, I sit around and try to get my mind working on one of the 'unsolvables' in my catalogue of problems. Even though I don't come to a solution usually, it's still a great deal of fun, or maybe I'm just loony. You can also try making up weird stories and all the stuff you'd do when you were a child. No, no one ever caught me at it, and if they did I would deny it fiercely, but it's always nice for me to keep an innocent side of me all to myself.





Camelopardalis added to this post, 2 minutes and 15 seconds later...

Aim low, shoot high.

I may be down for a round but at this stage in my life, the fight will never die and I'll never let myself be depressed again. It's entirely illogical to me now, to waste time dwelling on whatever past experience/mistake that led me to be depressed in the first place. Learn from it and move on, life is too short to waste it pissing around your apartment worrying about things you have no control over.

That's a good way to deal. Every depressed person in the world should have that kind of attitude once in a while. It gives them a little motivation to keep going with life and might decrease the number of suicides (crap. I'm treading on sensitive waters).

[Pinkie]

It rather depends on whether your depression is a result of something, or just arbitrary, doesn't it? I mean, I have depression but there's nothing, apart from a genetic predisposition, which could possibly have caused it. Frankly, when I've got it badly, as I have had for the last month, it's just about all I can do to get up in the morning without giving myself a 'Come on! Let's pull up the socks here!' pep-talk which will only make me even more irritated by myself than I already am.

[terencec]

I am thinking if depression is illogical, is happiness illogical (sometimes)? Since happiness usually will not cause performance issue or other problems (e.g. suicide), people tend to think it is ok to be happy all the time whether it is logical or not. This is what I think.

I will argue happiness will bring us more benefits than depression. So, it is logical to be happy whether it is logical or notl.

[xhaan]

I am thinking if depression is illogical, is happiness illogical (sometimes)? Since happiness usually will not cause performance issue or other problems (e.g. suicide), people tend to think it is ok to be happy all the time whether it is logical or not. This is what I think.

I will argue happiness will bring us more benefits than depression. So, it is logical to be happy whether it is logical or notl.

Again, depression is not always the same as being unhappy or greiving. I find it 'illogical' as you put it, to be unnecessarily 'happy', or 'fake happy', because this will have further negative effect on you... especially when your happiness is a total lie.

There are certain mechanics in the brain which can go wrong, just as one can go blind, one can get depressed. A blind person cannot see again just out of willpower, depression can not be corrected just out of willpower. The will to overcome it, and treat it, helps greatly, but it isn't just a choice, like "ok, I'm not going to be depressed today." No. Not how it works at all.

[terencec]

Again, depression is not always the same as being unhappy or greiving. I find it 'illogical' as you put it, to be unnecessarily 'happy', or 'fake happy', because this will have further negative effect on you... especially when your happiness is a total lie.

There are certain mechanics in the brain which can go wrong, just as one can go blind, one can get depressed. A blind person cannot see again just out of willpower, depression can not be corrected just out of willpower. The will to overcome it, and treat it, helps greatly, but it isn't just a choice, like "ok, I'm not going to be depressed today." No. Not how it works at all.

My definition of depression is long period of sadness (It is subjective about "how long"). You seem to say depression must cause by chemical inbalance in the brain or something wrong in the brain. According my definition, it is not. Depression can be treated by will power only. Please read the cognitive therapy which use only will power as treatment (many psychatrists use it to treat depression patients) . Some patients may have chemical inbalance in the brain, that is what you are talking about. In that case, the doctor will give you medication and you may not just get out of depression by "will power".

(You does not mean xhaan here)
You don't have to fake happiness. You just don't think the bad situations and put a lot of "faith" in the future, believe that the future will be much better (even you cannot prove, it is just like religion believe). At least, it won't make you sad, it may even make you feel happy if your "faith" is so strong. (Just like if I strongly believe my suffer here will take me to heaven later.)

I am not saying sadness is always logical or happiness is always illogcal. I just say in some cases, they may. The theory will be totally wrong if all sadness itself is illogical and all happiness itself is logical. I am doubt that is true.

[TerrySC]

Here is what WebMD has to say about it.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Ever had an argument with someone that is extremely headstrong, and no amount of facts can convince them that they are wrong? This is my analogy of fighting depression. It can be very frustrating and the frustration then feeds the depression. I wish that I could just will power it away, but beat it or not I'll continue the fight.

[lokm]

My definition of depression is long period of sadness (It is subjective about "how long"). You seem to say depression must cause by chemical inbalance in the brain or something wrong in the brain. According my definition, it is not. Depression can be treated by will power only. Please read the cognitive therapy which use only will power as treatment (many psychatrists use it to treat depression patients) . Some patients may have chemical inbalance in the brain, that is what you are talking about. In that case, the doctor will give you medication and you may not just get out of depression by "will power".

Depression is indeed usually diagnosed after a long period of 'sadness' (for want of a better word), but that doesn't mean it's not because of a chemical imbalance. There's several causes of depression, and a chemical imbalance is one of them. Another is due to events in the person's life, which can be helped with cognitive therapy, but most cases can also be treated with medicine (anti-depressants), and they do work (although not for everyone)

[xhaan]

My definition of depression [...]

That's the difference, right there.
I tried to make an objective statement:

Again, depression is not always the same as being unhappy or greiving.

And you respond with a subjective one:
My definition of depression is [...]
Right you may be, but your 'definition' is not all inclusive, or acknowledging of other potential causes... you're only looking at one part.

However, now that I reread my post, I may have missed a word or two which changed my context.

depression (countable and uncountable; plural depressions)

2. (psychology) in psychotherapy and psychiatry, a state of mind producing serious, long-term lowering of enjoyment of life or inability to visualize a happy future

3. (psychology) in psychotherapy and psychiatry, a period of unhappiness or low morale which lasts longer than several weeks and may include ideation of self-inflicted injury or suicide

Edit:
To make my case more clear:
The ability to 'talk yourself out', or cure perceived depression using positive thinking by yourself, precludes the experience from being depression. You're just sad, not depressed.

[terencec]

That's the difference, right there.
I tried to make an objective statement:

And you respond with a subjective one:

Right you may be, but your 'definition' is not all inclusive, or acknowledging of other potential causes... you're only looking at one part.


I have read some books about depression long time back. I think that is depression (from what I recall). I do agree that I should have to look up the depression definition. So everyone can agree.

zDepression definition from wikipedia
"Clinical depression (also called major-depressive disorder or unipolar depression) is a common psychiatric disorder, characterized by a persistent lowering of mood, loss of interest in usual activities and diminished ability to experience pleasure."

There are certain mechanics in the brain which can go wrong, just as one can go blind, one can get depressed. A blind person cannot see again just out of willpower, depression can not be corrected just out of willpower. The will to overcome it, and treat it, helps greatly, but it isn't just a choice, like "ok, I'm not going to be depressed today." No. Not how it works at all.

In your first post, you only point out the depression is caused "only" by some problems of the brain (e.g. chemical inbalance). I just said that there might be other causes which can be treated by "will power" only. Maybe I misread what you mean.


Edit:
To make my case more clear:
The ability to 'talk yourself out', or cure perceived depression using positive thinking by yourself, precludes the experience from being depression. You're just sad, not depressed.

The statement seems to make sense to me. But I am not a doctor so don't know if it is true or not.

[xhaan]

In your first post, you only point out the depression is caused "only" by some problems of the brain (e.g. chemical inbalance). I just said that there might be other causes which can be treated by "will power" only. Maybe I misread what you mean.


I admit, I misspoke there, sorry about that. I missed some words which changed my context, I may have meant to say "not always", as I did in the first line of the post, but I may have been subconsciously defensive or something, and neglected to do that. ;D

Anyways, yes, I think the clinical definition is accurate, to make the distinction between depression and sadness, as sadness is a symptom of depression, in a medical/psychiatric sense. I don't see it as making sense to have depression be synonymous with sadness in this case, as you would be using something to describe itself. i.e. If depression = sadness, and is described as being sad for a length of time, then you are sad because you are sad, and depressed because you are depressed. It's redundant.

[terencec]

Anyways, yes, I think the clinical definition is accurate, to make the distinction between depression and sadness, as sadness is a symptom of depression, in a medical/psychiatric sense. I don't see it as making sense to have depression be synonymous with sadness in this case, as you would be using something to describe itself. i.e. If depression = sadness, and is described as being sad for a length of time, then you are sad because you are sad, and depressed because you are depressed. It's redundant.

I got what you mean from the beginning. Virtually everyone is sad once a while but not everything will be depressed.

[Sylvanus]

Where to begin... so many thoughts, trying to put them all in order...

I sometimes get depressed, but it is rarely debilitating, I also have anxiety issues. I have a family history, my father has it pretty bad and my sister is bipolar. I have never been formally diagnosed, I usually just let it run its course, but I take St Johns and it seems to help.

I am currently depressed right now, I believe it is due to environmental causes. Unfortunately there is no way to remove the causes, I just have to suck it up and wait until things get better.

Causes:
The major cause, I am married to a woman I simultaneously love and loathe. I truly do love her, I enjoy being with her, but I also loathe her because she has taken away everything that is important to me (as an INTJ). She is an ENFJ, and doesn't understand that I need to be alone to recharge, no matter how many times I explain it to her. We also have two toddlers that suck the energy right out of me, and they really don't understand that I need to have alone time. On top of that, she recently had surgery and doesn't sleep well at night (2 hours tops), she takes naps during the day on the couch. It makes it that much more difficult trying to keep them from randomly waking her up. When normally I can just let them do whatever they want (within reason), just keeping an eye on them making sure they aren't getting into trouble, now it becomes a constant thing and sucks up 10 times my energy. On top of that I work nights, then I spend half my weekend trying to get back to normal, then half my work week trying to get back to normal again. I am constantly sleep deprived, and there is no hope of catching up in the near future. I am addicted to caffeine, I need it to maintain focus at work. I try to ease up on my weekends, but I find that I get anxious and have a short temper without it. Sometimes I try to medicate my anxiety with alcohol, but I know this is bad for me and only makes the cycle worse, so I try to limit it to 2 drinks a day and only on the weekends, but I know it is still too much. I'm also stuck in a job that I lost interest in long ago. It is not a bad job, but I want something new in a better part of the country and I can't find anything that even the pay of my current job so I have no chance of eliminating my debt anytime soon.

The things she has taken all that are important to me:
-My time, I never have a moment to myself outside of work.
-My money, anything extra she spends on things I consider frivolous, and has gotten us deeper and deeper into debt.
-My projects, I don't have any time or money to work on my multitude of projects I need as an INTJ to keep my creativity and energy going. I am completely impotent to even attempt to try to work on anything that might bring a little bit of personal satisfaction to my life and increase my self worth.
-My energy, she talks and talks and talks. She cannot stop talking, and she doesn't ever realize that I don't want to listen to her. I encourage her to spend time with her friends, but when she gets back (or at a later time), she complains about her friends. Always the same topics, I don't need to hear the same thing 10 times, I heard her the first time, wasn't interested then, still don't care.
-I'm sure there's more.

So the causes of my depression are completely environmental (at least for now), with no real chance in the near future to make things better. My wife applied for a part time job so she can work on my weekends, so I believe that will help with the money part and give me more time away from her, more time with the kids (and makes it easier to ignore them). On the downside, she will probably aggravate her injury, get less sleep, complain more.

I didn't mean for this post to be nothing but a rag on my wife, but the more I think about it, the more I see her as the root cause of my depression.

[Firelie]

I didn't mean for this post to be nothing but a rag on my wife, but the more I think about it, the more I see her as the root cause of my depression.

My god man, how are you still sane? That sounds like hell. Minus the fire and brimstone.

[Rick]

I do get depressed, often, and, without exception, it is completely due to my trying to fit in or adapt to what I see as other peoples' expectations. It's not a matter of trying to be "good enough" or self esteem. I am very much aware that I am intelligent and work harder than most of those around me. Not bragging - I have plenty of other inadequacies.

It is totally a matter of trying to find a way of fitting in - an actor on a stage, and the associated frustration. You lose your own self by living like this. From time to time, I wonder whether this is one of the INTJs reasons for seeking solitude (as a way to rest between performances).

I AM different. I'm me. Take it or leave it, bless you if you disagree. It took me YEARS to understand this, even though, as an INTJ, I have never cared about specific judgements about me in general. The "alien" feeling, though, has affected me badly at times, particulary when it comes to people I love and not at all understanding how to tell them so.

Have you noticed all the new members, in their introductions, who mention that they thought that there was something wrong with them til they discovered this community? I'm 44 years old. Maybe I can give some advice to you younger INTJs. Be yourself. Grow yourself. Care, but do not try to be someone you are not. Do not ignore others. Keep your finger on the pulse, because life requires you to be involved. Balance this: learn to care and explain who you are without losing your identity and talent. Grow the talent but temper the delivery.

[Lucid]

Lucid, I am late in this discussion. Reading other philosophy forums, people have the same claim suicide is selfish act. I come up exactly question as you (fyi, I do not recall having any serious suicidal thought.)

Do you know how other people explain your argument above? I would like to know.

Sorry, I just saw your question. Do you mean, how do other people respond to my argument above? Usually they don't. Or with "That's bullshit" which isn't really a response. :)

[terencec]

Sorry, I just saw your question. Do you mean, how do other people respond to my argument above? Usually they don't. Or with "That's bullshit" which isn't really a response. :)

Yes, you got what I asked and I got "the answer" now! Thanks.

[Sylvanus]

My god man, how are you still sane? That sounds like hell. Minus the fire and brimstone.

The only thing keeping me sane right now is that I have a good portion of my night at work to myself and have little interaction with others. That's what I'm doing right now, surfing the internet, playing online games (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), taking a walk. I'm conflicted because I know want a better paying job, but I know that most of the jobs available require a lot more interaction with others. Of course more money in theory could get rid of a lot of my stress by eliminating debt and granting more opportunities for us to do things that will help us (date nights, sending her on shopping trips with her friends). Or it could just mean same problems, higher tax bracket. Divorce is not an option either (things would have to be much worse), like I said, I still love her, just not the way she acts sometimes.

[Jenny Penny]

I have problems with anxiety and that causes me to feel depressed. I have also been suicidal at various times in my life. I think this is caused by my natural inclination to isolate myself from human contact. I need friendships in my life, but I feel powerless to connect with most people and it is just exhausting...

[Jedi_sena]

I used to think that I never suffered depression, but I have come to realize that my depression manifests as anger. I am constantly outraged about someone or some situation which robs me of true contentment and happiness. But I never get weepy or sullen and I never feel self-destructive.

[Hoorurly]

I've lived with depression most of my life. I've learned to recognize it as depression and have learned that I just have to let it take it's course. Sometimes I'm depressed for long periods of time, but it eventually passes as I know it will. Right now I'm very depressed and reading the posts on this forum has actually been therapy for me, not just this thread, but all of them. I don't have any friends here because I've only lived here a year and haven't been able to make friends since I'm basically a loner and not working right now. It's not that I would really talk to anyone about what is bothering me, its just that sometimes a friend or co-worker can be a distraction from my self-focus. And I think that sometimes that is what depression is. If I analyze my depression, I can usually trace it back to a specific instance, but most of the time I lose sight of what really caused the depression because one thought just leads to another and another................

[Snuggles]

I've had it my whole life, and while it's not good, it's not as bad as it used to be. I bet most of you have the same problem as I do... where I think I'm getting something I want, but it turns out to be a really dumb decision.

Such events include girls I've dated and drinking.

Right now I'm really down about not being able to 'find someone'... lame I know... I broke up with someone I thought was a totally different person then the were about 6 months ago. That scenario happened twice in a year where I felt completely used... I think I have an Ayn Rand-esque opinion on intercourse... it has yet to feel really 'good' (wow that was gross). Aside from that, it's just stressful being in one, waiting for the person to find someone 'better' even though I know they're not really someone I 'want' anyway...

So, I cannot figure out why I'm down about this topic since I really don't want to feel like crap again, but I really don't like being alone... it's that mind juggle... and I just don't think I have a capacity to feel anything for anyone anyway.

So then I picked up really heavy drinking. I became the clown, or toy, of my group of friends, and I really don't like the idea of being the center of attention and people laughing at me (this was definitely not with). I have since greatly ceased my drinking, but now I'm in this weird spot where I really cannot figure anything to do with my life outside of work. We'll go to bars, but then I'll have anxiety attacks there because I hate the idea of being out in a social environment where I don't know 98% of the people.

I'll get through it... it just sucks right now and I feel like doing some worthless bitching, haha.

Depression sucks. I go to see a counselor, but my problems are so damn dumb that I don't even feel like saying them. Why can't I just feel decent for a day?

[mxdntz]

I have never been diagnosed, but I was definitely not happy from 18 to 28. I have genetic predispositions to schizophrenia (sister, uncle), Bipolar (mom) and my dad is probably a Borderline personality so I have to be careful with the drugs including alcohol. Also my brother committed suicide a few years ago so my path to happiness is a narrow one.

I was diagnosed with PTSD in 2005 after I found my brother after he shot himself. I accidentally rolled my brother onto his gun (a small 380 handgun) because he was on his side when I arrived. The cops handcuffed me and put me in the back of a cop car for about 8 hours while they processed what they thought might be a murder scene. I was finally questioned and released. After they finally removed my brothers body (the next morning) they found his gun underneath him. It was by far the worst night of my life and the images of that night haunt me. I am progressively getting better though so I do not believe I will have symptoms for too much longer.

Statistically, I have a good chance of being afflicted with something else besides the PTSD because of my immediate family members. But I was raised in a better environment than my siblings. I moved to Cedar Park TX with my father when I was 12 and stayed in the Austin area until I was 19. I bounced around a lot the last ten years, but I'm going back for good in May. I believe environment has a huge impact on mental health and Austin is the perfect environment for me. A excellent university (which I am admitted to), good people who I am lucky to call my friends and enough of them to not feel like an outcast. The power of perception is to my advantage when it comes to Austin, I believe it will heal me, so it will.

[TheLastMohican]

I have never had depression.

Of course, the E's around me all seem to think I do if I am not smiling at the moment. :rolleyes: I have a healthy dose of pessimism.

[Sylvanus]

I have never had depression.

Of course, the E's around me all seem to think I do if I am not smiling at the moment. :rolleyes: I have a healthy dose of pessimism.

My wife (E) tries to get me out and socialized all the time, she thinks it will help my depression. Little does she know that she is only making it worse, and she doesn't believe me when I tell her.

[sam988]

I also never had it, always looked life by the bright side and if life wasn't bright i would and will fight until i make it so.

My life is not a paradise, but i prefer to see it as if i'm constantly getting closer to paradise than see how far away i'm from it.


But i definitely don't see those who suffer from depression as "weaklings" or something like that. I believe it's very much in the innate predisposition; some people have a very strong tendency to feel depressed while others don't. One more of the many gamble games that nature plays on us.

[lordrrr]

I don't get depressed too often, and it's easy to combat it when it may come.

[TheLastMohican]

My wife (E) tries to get me out and socialized all the time, she thinks it will help my depression. Little does she know that she is only making it worse, and she doesn't believe me when I tell her.

Does she understand the concept of E vs. I and internal energy vs. external energy sources?

[malefide]

I've suffered from moderate to severe depression on and off for the past five or so years.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

So the causes of my depression are completely environmental (at least for now), with no real chance in the near future to make things better. My wife applied for a part time job so she can work on my weekends, so I believe that will help with the money part and give me more time away from her, more time with the kids (and makes it easier to ignore them). On the downside, she will probably aggravate her injury, get less sleep, complain more.
Demand what you need. Insist on having what you must have to make you healthy. You can negotiate with her. She must nap in the bedroom and you'll take care of the kids. You must be allowed to leave for a few hours a day and she'll take care of the kids. This works. You just have to believe that you deserve to be healthy (mentally) too.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 5 minutes and 49 seconds later...

I have problems with anxiety and that causes me to feel depressed. I have also been suicidal at various times in my life. I think this is caused by my natural inclination to isolate myself from human contact. I need friendships in my life, but I feel powerless to connect with most people and it is just exhausting...
What about your family? I've made friends out of my sisters and brother.

[sriv]

For nearly all of middle school, I was selectively mute. I barely talked to anyone in school and the experience gave me a better understanding of how immature I used to be. At that time I was depressed because of the boredom and pointlessness of life. Now I have goals, ambitions, good friends, and a defined purpose of life.

[Sylvanus]

Demand what you need. Insist on having what you must have to make you healthy. You can negotiate with her. She must nap in the bedroom and you'll take care of the kids. You must be allowed to leave for a few hours a day and she'll take care of the kids. This works. You just have to believe that you deserve to be healthy (mentally) too.


I've tried this, sometimes it works, depending on her mood. She started a job recently, so I see her less which helps (helps with the money situation too). I just need to be more confident in telling her what I need.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I've tried this, sometimes it works, depending on her mood. She started a job recently, so I see her less which helps (helps with the money situation too). I just need to be more confident in telling her what I need.
I have this exact same problem with my partner. I am not confident about asking for what I want because I am living in his house and he doesn't like change. I have been slowly asking and demanding for more things to change so that I can feel like I have some control over my life. It's working, but it's incredibly slow....two steps forward....one step back.

[Sylvanus]

I have this exact same problem with my partner. I am not confident about asking for what I want because I am living in his house and he doesn't like change. I have been slowly asking and demanding for more things to change so that I can feel like I have some control over my life. It's working, but it's incredibly slow....two steps forward....one step back.

Well good luck. Thanks for showing an interest, I'll keep you posted. (Let me know if you want to talk, might be good for both of us)

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Well good luck. Thanks for showing an interest, I'll keep you posted. (Let me know if you want to talk, might be good for both of us)
Sounds good. We're going to couseling tomorrow. Maybe this will get things out and rolling. We can keep each other posted.

[Sylvanus]

Sounds good. We're going to couseling tomorrow. Maybe this will get things out and rolling. We can keep each other posted.

Fun, counseling.... I can't say I would look forward to that, but I hope it works well for you two.

[Vayate]

How do you experience depression? Do you notice when you're depressed? How do you deal with it?

/go

Constant clinical depression. I always have trouble motivating myself, and I sleep too much. Not a huge deal, just need to eat well enough to keep up my energy and visualize the outcomes of whatever I'm trying to get myself to do.