Mexico, The scourge of the Americas.

[Ray9]

How many of us are tired of the propaganda being spread by special interest groups that profit from the slavery of illegal immigrants from Mexico? While the elitist ruling class of Mexico dumps the foot soldiers of the revolution it richly deserves into the United States, Americans suffer the consequences from coast to coast. NAFTA,(No America For The Anglos) is quickly being seen for what it really is, a deal with the Devil.


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[Hamburglar]

I changed a few words from the intro to keep it interesting:

America is notorious for corruption and is nearly unresponsive to a persistent, staggering poverty suffered by millions of Americans. At the top of the American power structure is an elitist, wealthy ruling class that vehemently resists even a modest level of taxation while supporting the status of America as a nation dependent on Foreign debt. Onerous taxation and big government is never a solution, but at the other extreme is the American ruling class who has shunned any responsibility for the dire economic state of their country.

[Corbu]

Who is the preacher? Who is the choir?

Recommend returning the "foot soldiers of the revolution" via C-130 transport @ 30,000 feet with negative equipment burden along a 5 mile swath south of currently defined, established and agreed to borders to act as a deterrent.

[Grimstad]

Who is the preacher? Who is the choir?

Recommend returning the "foot soldiers of the revolution" via C-130 transport @ 30,000 feet with negative equipment burden along a 5 mile swath south of currently defined, established and agreed to borders to act as a deterrent.

I have to admit, that is a tempting thought but how about this? We build boot camps, and train and arm them before we send them back 10,000 at a time.

[Corbu]

I have to admit, that is a tempting thought but how about this? We build boot camps, and train and arm them before we send them back 10,000 at a time.

Negative. Previous models indicate potential for large liability if assets deviate from desired objectives.

[Hamburglar]

I know...we can put them in the FEMA relocation camps, and work them until they pay their debt to society.

Economy down = Nationalism up = Xenophobia up = Clinging to guns and religion (aka core values).

Its cool, you (and I use that term loosely) are just philosophically incapable of changing your core values to meet with the altered circumstances of an increasingly globalized economic and political world. You can't be blamed, but you should be aware.

[Corbu]

I know...we can put them in the FEMA relocation camps, and work them until they pay their debt to society.
As long as we can air drop them concurrence with the FEMA camps idea. Just figured it would be better to make the mess somewhere else. Upside would be job creation in this down economy allowing for the current administration to claim job creation other than the 34 czar positions.
Economy down = Nationalism up = Xenophobia up = Clinging to guns and religion (aka core values).
Empirical evidence does not support this equation.

[Profit]

Empirical evidence does not support this equation.

The last year has seen an increase in far right militia groups that can be described as nationalistic and xenophobic aka clinging to guns and religion and blaming foreign others (or socialist conspiracies ie non american values) for the problems confronting the US.

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[BananaKT]

Mexico, The scourge of the Americas

How many of us are tired of the propaganda being spread by special interest groups that profit from the slavery of illegal immigrants from Mexico? While the elitist ruling class of Mexico dumps the foot soldiers of the revolution it richly deserves into the United States, Americans suffer the consequences from coast to coast. NAFTA,(No America For The Anglos) is quickly being seen for what it really is, a deal with the Devil.


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The Americas consists of many more countries than the USA. I'm not sure they wish to be dragged into such a controversial statement. Mexico is reviled today. Who will it be tomorrow?

[Aristocrat Porn]

I know...we can put them in the FEMA relocation camps, and work them until they pay their debt to society.

Economy down = Nationalism up = Xenophobia up = Clinging to guns and religion (aka core values).

Its cool, you (and I use that term loosely) are just philosophically incapable of changing your core values to meet with the altered circumstances of an increasingly globalized economic and political world. You can't be blamed, but you should be aware.


You word your sentence in a way that suggests it's the world's circumstances that should be met with, when really this is nothing more than preference. He would rather have it some way other than what we are seeing develop right now. He can go and do something about it.

[Causa Mortis]

It seems as though the topic of Mexicans polarizes just about everyone. I don't understand why.

The economic impacts of large scale illegal immigration are lower inflation and lower wages for unskilled workers. Kind of a "who cares" for me because the completely unskilled tend to be teenagers, the elderly, and other groups who are typically propped up by another person.

OTOH, I think cultural integration into the community you are emigrating to is important, and with the scale of Mexican immigration, I often don't see that happening. Not that there's anything wrong with Mexican culture, I just would prefer to see more of a melting pot.

[Ray9]

America is notorious for corruption and is nearly unresponsive to a persistent, staggering poverty suffered by millions of Americans. At the top of the American power structure is an elitist, wealthy ruling class that vehemently resists even a modest level of taxation while supporting the status of America as a nation dependent on Foreign debt. Onerous taxation and big government is never a solution, but at the other extreme is the American ruling class who has shunned any responsibility for the dire economic state of their country.

Where are the millions of American illegal aliens crashing the borders and swarmng into Mexico? Your logic is ludicrous.

[boldbidder]

Empirical evidence does not support this equation.

Guns and ammunition prices support that quite well actually. Ammo is up a good 30% where I shop year over year, if you can find some. Hotter ticket item arms are also ultra-scarce these days, many OEMs have 4-6 month back orders, had to find a dealer out way the frak out in AZ (I'm in IL) for my last purchase.

[Hamburglar]

Where are the millions of American illegal aliens crashing the borders and swarmng into Mexico? Your logic is ludicrous.

Well, that has absolutely nothing to do with the alteration of the quote. So I will not bother to reply.

[Prunesquallor]

more anti-immigrant paranoia? Lovely. Just lovely.

[rickster]

Problem: US Imperialsm The American Dream goes sour.

Solution: Grow yer own pot, manufacture yer own cocaine and pick yer own damned fruit and vegetables. :laugh:

[Aronnax]

Where are the millions of American illegal aliens crashing the borders and swarmng into Mexico? Your logic is ludicrous.


He didn't say anything about Americans invading Mexico, reread his post.

Besides, everyone knows the US sends it's poor to invade middle eastern countries. The US hasn't invaded a nation in the Americas since the Spanish-American war (assuming you consider Cuba part of the Americas).

[Undead Bonzi]

How many of us are tired of the propaganda being spread by special interest groups that profit from the slavery of illegal immigrants from Mexico? While the elitist ruling class of Mexico dumps the foot soldiers of the revolution it richly deserves into the United States, Americans suffer the consequences from coast to coast. NAFTA,(No America For The Anglos) is quickly being seen for what it really is, a deal with the Devil.

Is it intentional irony that the wording of your post closely reflects that of the stereotypical wording and cadences of traditional Marxist/Fascist propaganda? What happens when one looks in the mirror and sees what they fear and hate?

[Profit]

.

Besides, everyone knows the US sends it's poor to invade middle eastern countries. The US hasn't invaded a nation in the Americas since the Spanish-American war (assuming you consider Cuba part of the Americas).

Well there was Grenada and Panama in the 80's, ahh Reagan......

But hey why invade when you can just get local elites to protect your interests.
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[Hamburglar]

It should also be noted that NAFTA crushed Mexican farmers by dumping heavily subsidized corn crops from the US into Mexico. So the busted farmer has two options: Co-opt with the drug dealers, or run for the border and work for the heavily subsidized industrial farms in the US. I think for most honest hard-working Mexicans the latter is the most commonly chosen. But that's okay, it's much easier to view them as lazy-no-goods who can't hack it in their own country and erect 40ft high fences all along the border to keep them out.

I know this is not an exhaustive push/pull analysis of immigration, but it is a big push factor that deserves mention... Another factor is the lack of economic opportunity in general. But that could have something to do with the fact that half their country was annexed by the US a mere 161 years ago.

Could you imagine the devastation it would create if they took it back and Americans had to move north/east? I could.

[BananaKT]

Chiquita and Dole obliterated the banana industry in the Eastern Caribbean in the name of free trade. The truth is the shareholders in these companies demanded growth at the expense of nations that were responsible for only 1% of the world trade in bananas. There was no concern for the economic and social fallout. Sounds a lot like the Mexican experience.

I understand the difficulties the USA is experiencing with so many poorly skilled and uneducated immigrants however, there is another side to the immigration issue. For decades, countries like mine have lost their educated, middle class citizens to the USA along with the tax dollars spent on training them. Without those citizens these countries have found it difficult to grow their economies and have suffered a deterioration of their culture because no one is left to teach younger generations. Those poorly educated and poorly socialized young people are demanding their place in society now and wreaking havoc in their homelands and the countries to which they migrate. So, you can see now, that the migration knife cuts both ways. It is easy to blame the elite in the 'source' countries but I assure you it is a complex problem that is not easily solved.

[Ray9]

I know this is not an exhaustive push/pull analysis of immigration, but it is a big push factor that deserves mention... Another factor is the lack of economic opportunity in general. But that could have something to do with the fact that half their country was annexed by the US a mere 161 years ago.

What does any of that have to do with the fact that the white elites of Mexico are perched at the top of a caste system that institutionalizes inequality and lack of opportunity for the less white? Here is an old link that is loaded with information. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[reb]

What does any of that have to do with the fact that the white elites of Mexico are perched at the top of a caste system that institutionalizes inequality and lack of opportunity for the less white? Here is an old link that is loaded with information. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

what has always puzzled me, and shows a lack of foresight (or a tremendous, long range foresight)...why did we not simply keep mexico when we conquered it in 1848? we could have integrated the whole country into ours...now we are trying to do it economically, and it is a mess.

the caste system there is both subtle and overt. the 'pure spanish' lord it over everyone who is not. obviously, there are not many genetic hobbyists in mexico, or they choose to 'clump', like people in the u.s.s of a.. strangely, the mexicans tell me they hate guatemalans, a nicaraguan told me they dint like guatemalans or panamanians....

the human race is totally screwed up.

[IrishGuy]

Well, when the Catholic Irish immigrants came to the United States in large numbers in the mid 1800's many American's thought that the Irish were going to bring down the country.

Everyone thought that giving African Americans person-hood and the right to vote would bring down the country.

Everyone thought that the flood of German immigrants would bring down the country.

Everyone thought that giving women the right to vote would bring down the country.

Everyone thought that the flood of Asian immigrants would bring down the country.

Everyone thinks that the flood of Mexican immigrants will bring down the country.....

Seeing a pattern here? The fact of the matter is that over the course of a few generations most immigrants will "Americanize" and become as much apart of our country as anyone else. You see this with 2nd and 3rd generation Mexican-Americans.

[MartinH]

I have to admit, that is a tempting thought but how about this? We build boot camps, and train and arm them before we send them back 10,000 at a time.

Worked in Afghanistan in the 80s... oh, wait.

[Grimstad]

Okay, I expected that. Theres a couple differences though.
1. The Taliban has never, in any way shape or form, sought "The American Dream". Something all those people crossing the Mexican border are looking for.

2. Handing someone a stinger and showing them how to aim and shoot is not my idea of training. It's a little more like handing them a grenade after pulling the pin.

Granted, my suggestion may not be the best but it seemed a little better than simply "launching" them back across the border. The guns are already flowing across the border. Unfortuanately they are ending up in the hands of the drug cartels, which is a little like handing them grenades, after pulling the pin.

[Ray9]

Well, when the Catholic Irish immigrants came to the United States in large numbers in the mid 1800's many American's thought that the Irish were going to bring down the country.

Everyone thought that giving African Americans person-hood and the right to vote would bring down the country.

Everyone thought that the flood of German immigrants would bring down the country.

Everyone thought that giving women the right to vote would bring down the country.

Everyone thought that the flood of Asian immigrants would bring down the country.

Everyone thinks that the flood of Mexican immigrants will bring down the country.....

Seeing a pattern here? The fact of the matter is that over the course of a few generations most immigrants will "Americanize" and become as much apart of our country as anyone else. You see this with 2nd and 3rd generation Mexican-Americans.


If that were true it would be much less of a problem than it is. There's something different about the people who are coming today. These people have no interest at all in the melting pot. They are not coming to become Americans, they are coming to feed their families. The hapless and unjust government of Mexico is unable and probably unwilling to create an economy to support its populaton because to do so would require a cultural shift that would unseat the privleged class of pure Spanish heritage. The immigrants, both legal and illegal care nothing for americanization or even learning our language. It's the sheer numbers that causes the most serious problems because never in our history have so many come so quickly. They are like a swarm.

[IrishGuy]

Okay, I expected that. Theres a couple differences though.
1. The Taliban has never, in any way shape or form, sought "The American Dream". Something all those people crossing the Mexican border are looking for.

2. Handing someone a stinger and showing them how to aim and shoot is not my idea of training. It's a little more like handing them a grenade after pulling the pin.

Granted, my suggestion may not be the best but it seemed a little better than simply "launching" them back across the border. The guns are already flowing across the border. Unfortuanately they are ending up in the hands of the drug cartels, which is a little like handing them grenades, after pulling the pin.
Great, so now we go train them; send them across the border; then they join one of the drug cartels as a highly trained soldier. Sounds like we'd just be making trouble for ourselves.





IrishGuy added to this post, 31 minutes and 32 seconds later...

If that were true it would be much less of a problem than it is. There's something different about the people who are coming today. These people have no interest at all in the melting pot. They are not coming to become Americans, they are coming to feed their families. The hapless and unjust government of Mexico is unable and probably unwilling to create an economy to support its populaton because to do so would require a cultural shift that would unseat the privleged class of pure Spanish heritage. The immigrants, both legal and illegal care nothing for americanization or even learning our language. It's the sheer numbers that causes the most serious problems because never in our history have so many come so quickly. They are like a swarm.
It's not that they are not interested in assimilating. It is that it is difficult to integrate if you are in the country illegally. Deporting millions of people is not a viable option. I have a friend who obtained his citizenship through legal processes. His family moved here when he was 4 years old. He speaks fluent English, has a solid knowledge of American history (better than most Americans), and is getting a college education. It took 8 years of trying before he could get his citizenship.

Streamline the citizenship process and you'll find that immigrants are much more ABLE to integrate into our society. The Germans and Irish both came here in floods comparable to Mexicans. They also came here illegally and had poor English speaking skills. They were slow to integrate as well. This is because they faced a lot of hostility and discrimination from the "natives." Give it 2-4 generations and you'll find that Mexicans will integrate. I've lived in Texas and Southern California and I'll tell you that I've met many Mexicans who have integrated (after getting their citizenship) and consider the United States their home. They're proud of their Mexican culture and they like to watch Mexican soccer, but that does not mean that they do not value democracy or that they do not appreciate the values of American society.

Your fear of a Mexican invasion is paranoid and completely irrational.

[reb]

Martin, lol! yep...we trained the taliban, and armed them. heehee

google 'la raza'. that's a problem-all this 'we're better'n you are' crap is a problem. it prevents amalgamation and 'feeling a part of society'.

[Ray9]

The Germans and Irish both came here in floods comparable to Mexicans.

Consider the ridiculousness this statement. First of all there was an ocean between the Germans and the Irish. And then consider that in 2005 a Bear Stearns study maintained: "The number of illegal immigrants in the United States may be as high as 20 million people. We have millions more illegal aliens in the United States today than the sum total of all the Germans, Italians, Irish and Jews who ever came to America in the four hundred years of our history on this continent". [source]: Robert Justich and Betty Ng, " The underground labor force is rising to the surface". Bear Stearns Asset Management Jan. 3, 2005.

[IrishGuy]

Consider the ridiculousness this statement. First of all there was an ocean between the Germans and the Irish. And then consider that in 2005 a Bear Stearns study maintained: "The number of illegal immigrants in the United States may be as high as 20 million people. We have millions more illegal aliens in the United States today than the sum total of all the Germans, Italians, Irish and Jews who ever came to America in the four hundred years of our history on this continent". [source]: Robert Justich and Betty Ng, " The underground labor force is rising to the surface". Bear Stearns Asset Management Jan. 3, 2005.

Not all of those 20 million illegals are Mexicans. In fact only about half of the immigrants to this country each year are from Latin America (Mexicans et al.). You cannot consider sum totals only percentages when comparing across generations due to population growth. The impact is not in the raw numbers but in the proportion and the magnitude.

Just because there is an ocean does not mean that people do not immigrate. They had these things called "boats" and "ships" when the Irish, German, and other European immigrants were coming here. People of Irish or German descent make up almost 29% of the U.S. population. There are border police and a desert, and in some places rivers between Mexicans and the United States.

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Although more immigrants arrived in the United States in the 1990s than lived in the country in 1970, the current percentage of foreign-born residents falls well short of the historical peak of 14.8 percent in 1890, immigration advocates say. The overall percentage of foreign-born who have become citizens--40.3 percent--is about the same, indicating that new immigrants are just as interested in becoming part of the political process and in being productive members of their community.

I find it ironic that your profile says you're from New Hampshire; a state that is 93% white (non-hispanic) while I live in California where only 43% of the population is white (non-hispanic) and where 25% of the population is Mexican and you are the one who is railing against immigration from Mexico. I am the one living with all of these people and I am not threatened by their presence.

[Causa Mortis]

I find it ironic that your profile says you're from New Hampshire; a state that is 93% white (non-hispanic) while I live in California where only 43% of the population is white (non-hispanic) and where 25% of the population is Mexican and you are the one who is railing against immigration from Mexico. I am the one living with all of these people and I am not threatened by their presence.

Actually I don't believe racism can persist in a society or community in which people have contact with members of another race. For years - years - my brother, mother, and first girlfriend instilled a contempt of Asians inside of me. They're all money grubbing, narrow minded, idiotic, and bad drivers.

Then I attended a university that had about a 30% Asian population. The thing is, you get to know some and they're basically the same as everyone else: advancing their own rational self interest in mostly pro-social ways, wanting love, acceptance, and quality human relationships, looking to improve their own lives and the lives of people around them, and grappling with the problems of boredom/pain in the same ways we all are. There are some cultural differences but they're superficial, and the overall distribtuion of attributes is no more or less common in Asian communites than it is in European communities.

Why did my friends/family do this? Because they're bad, stupid, or sub human? No. Its because they'd been infected with a meme and the only function of a meme is to reproduce and they had few opportunities to shatter the meme.

Thus I think your criticism that his community lacks Mexicans and therefore he shouldn't have a negative view of Mexicans is largely inaccurate - his only conception of "Mexicans" is a nasty social meme that has no reflection on the actual complexity of reality, and his opportunities to purge this meme are more limited than yours or mine.

He negatively conceives of Mexican because there's a tiny minority of Mexicans in his population and his opportunities to shatter this meme are severely limited. If he had the opportunity to get to know Mexicans as you and I do, he'd quickyl realize that they're as rich in their diversity of humanity as you and I are diverse in relation to our own ethnic heritage.

When you examine this culturally or sociopolitcally, you generally see that those populations that expose themselves regularly to other societies (primarily through trade), tend to have lower levels of racism than those that are isolated culturally. Countries who liberalized views on race early include the UK, France, the Netherlands, and, on a somewhat slower timetable, the US. Countries that have traditionally been isolated are usually somewhat behind the curve in terms of broad social acceptance of racial and cultural minorities; Germany was not exactly a laissez faire society from 1918 to 1939, many parts of Africa remain in little/no contact with others, and Japan has always discouraged cultural assimilation.

Sadly I would also carefully assert that a culture that encourages isolation exposes itself to a racist meme and increases its risk of violence. As historical reference I would cite Mormons and Jews, both of which were encouraged to participate economically in mainstream society but strongly discouraged socially from participating while simultaneously encouraging thrift and accumulation. (Note: in no way am I asserting that either society "caused" or was deserving of the prejudice they received, simply that by encouraging isolation they exposed themselves to be victimized by nasty memes that are out there already). The language barrier present between many Americans and Mexicans necessitates isolation and therefore exposes themselves to victimization by the crazy racism meme.



In short, he's wrong but don't call him to the turf for weaknesses that we all posses. And this may make no sense because I'm on drink #9.

[zibber]

White men, the scourge of the world ever since they invented boats and guns.

Well, when the Catholic Irish immigrants came to the United States in large numbers in the mid 1800's many American's thought that the Irish were going to bring down the country.

Everyone thought that giving African Americans person-hood and the right to vote would bring down the country.

Everyone thought that the flood of German immigrants would bring down the country.

Everyone thought that giving women the right to vote would bring down the country.

Everyone thought that the flood of Asian immigrants would bring down the country.

Everyone thinks that the flood of Mexican immigrants will bring down the country.....

Seeing a pattern here? The fact of the matter is that over the course of a few generations most immigrants will "Americanize" and become as much apart of our country as anyone else. You see this with 2nd and 3rd generation Mexican-Americans.

One more:

Everyone thought the place would go to shit when the British arrived.

(That's the only time it came true, apparently.)


ps. Bridget Geegan Blanton, is that a joke name? Reminds me of Gern Blanston.

[IrishGuy]

Pretty good for drink number 9 :-D. I agree with most of your post but I feel that you misinterpreted what I was saying when I posted this....

I find it ironic that your profile says you're from New Hampshire; a state that is 93% white (non-hispanic) while I live in California where only 43% of the population is white (non-hispanic) and where 25% of the population is Mexican and you are the one who is railing against immigration from Mexico. I am the one living with all of these people and I am not threatened by their presence.

I was making a point about how irrational his fear is. Everyone is worried about immigrants bringing in crime, "stealing" jobs, and otherwise turning the country upside down. The fact that his home state has so few Mexican immigrants in it means that he is the least likely to be affected by any of his perceived negative effects of Mexican immigration to the US. To further underscore this irrationality the people (such as myself) who are the most likely to be affected by these "negative effects" are not experiencing any ill effect as a result of Mexican immigration. If I have nothing to fear then he has nothing to fear.

[Ray9]

I find it ironic that your profile says you're from New Hampshire; a state that is 93% white (non-hispanic) while I live in California where only 43% of the population is white (non-hispanic) and where 25% of the population is Mexican and you are the one who is railing against immigration from Mexico. I am the one living with all of these people and I am not threatened by their presence.


My father worked for the railroad and we lived in rural Needles, CA. until iwas 8 when we moved to San Bernadino until I was 19. I know all about Mexicans. I aslo speak and write passable spanish. Jumping to conclusions is dangerous. You need to read more carefully because the post is critical of the Mexican government not the people.

[Hamburglar]

Ray, what is your solution? All you have done is quibble with other people who 'misinterpreted' your post (I put that in quotes because I'm not sure most people misinterpreted the racist undertones). So please, enlighten us as to your solution to save the Mexicans from the evil caste system which you report exists...Sense of irony intended.

[Ray9]

No solution is possible until the Mexican government aknowleges that it is violating the civil rights of mestizo and indian citizens. Instead it is simply importing its problems into the United States.

[IrishGuy]

You need to read more carefully because the post is critical of the Mexican government not the people.

By and large, Americans have bought into the lie that it is their 'responsibility' to care for the poor of Mexico. What a coup for the Mexican government!

The fact that the notorious corruption of the Mexican government fails to be addressed, not by our government, and never by the illegal immigrant 'rights' organizations is as troubling as it is questionable.

It comes as no surprise that most, if not all, illegal alien 'rights' organizations turn out to have ties to the 'reconquista' movement.

The primary article you provide essentially states that if the Mexican government wasn't so corrupt that we wouldn't have to deal with all of these immigrants and goes so far as to criticize immigrant rights organizations for not addressing Mexican government corruption. Then the article takes it a step further and accuses these organizations as being part of a conspiracy to retake former Mexican territories. Talk about jumping to conclusions.

You say that you are only critical of the Mexican government and not the people. Yet, at the same time you are critical of the illegal immigrant rights organizations that try to help illegal immigrants understand American labor laws (pertaining to fair wages) and who help illegal immigrants obtain American citizenship or visas by accusing these organizations of being a part of a larger "reconquista" movement. You cannot be a defender of the Mexican people if you do not defend the Mexican people.

And how do you explain this?

If that were true it would be much less of a problem than it is. There's something different about the people who are coming today. These people have no interest at all in the melting pot. They are not coming to become Americans, they are coming to feed their families. The hapless and unjust government of Mexico is unable and probably unwilling to create an economy to support its populaton because to do so would require a cultural shift that would unseat the privleged class of pure Spanish heritage. The immigrants, both legal and illegal care nothing for americanization or even learning our language. It's the sheer numbers that causes the most serious problems because never in our history have so many come so quickly. They are like a swarm.

Here, let's break this statement down....

The immigrants, both legal and illegal care nothing for americanization or even learning our language. It's the sheer numbers that causes the most serious problems because never in our history have so many come so quickly. They are like a swarm.

You target immigrants in general. I already established the fallacy of this statement earlier.

They are not coming to become Americans, they are coming to feed their families.


Again, you target immigrants. Many of the Irish immigrants that came to the United States came here because they were starving. Remember that event called the "Potato Famine" or "the Great Famine" where over a million Irish starved to death and another 1-2 million immigrated to the United States. Feeding one's family is a common reason both currently and historically for immigrating to the United States.

If that were true it would be much less of a problem than it is. There's something different about the people who are coming today.

Again, you target the people and not the government

The hapless and unjust government of Mexico is unable and probably unwilling to create an economy to support its populaton because to do so would require a cultural shift that would unseat the privleged class of pure Spanish heritage.

Here you do criticize the Mexican government. I agree a corrupt government will result in emigration away from the corrupt government. It seems to me that you dislike immigrants and since Mexico is a large source of immigrants to the United States you dislike the Mexican government as well. You may criticize the Mexican government, but your statements clearly indicate that the foundation of your criticism is your fear of immigrants.

[Ray9]

It seems to me that you dislike immigrants and since Mexico is a large source of immigrants to the United States you dislike the Mexican government as well.

Immigrants? Don't you mean "illegal aliens"?

[Hamburglar]

No solution is possible until the Mexican government acknowleges that it is violating the civil rights of mestizo and indian citizens. Instead it is simply exporting its problems into the United States.

Immigrants? Don't you mean "illegal aliens"?


Make those two statements congruent.

[BananaKT]

I have a friend who obtained his citizenship through legal processes. His family moved here when he was 4 years old. He speaks fluent English, has a solid knowledge of American history (better than most Americans), and is getting a college education. It took 8 years of trying before he could get his citizenship.

Streamline the citizenship process and you'll find that immigrants are much more ABLE to integrate into our society.

I agree wholeheartedly that the immigration process to the USA needs reform. In addition, to the 8 year wait for a visa the application process can be severely delayed by the bureaucracy if a person has a change in their marital status or their kids age beyond 21. Many of the people who migrate are desperate for an improvement of their lives and would rather beat the system than wait so long.

Also, I don't think the current immigration process is very effective at keeping out undesirables.


The Germans and Irish both came here in floods comparable to Mexicans. They also came here illegally and had poor English speaking skills. They were slow to integrate as well. This is because they faced a lot of hostility and discrimination from the "natives."

I've noticed on my travels to the US that the people seem less friendly than they did 20+ years ago. I suspect that they are just being cautious in a dangerous world. However, for an immigrant coming from countries where they are used to people giving a short greeting to each person they meet it can be a bit isolating to be ignored and held in disdain by people who don't even know them. A simple wave or smile to the guy who cuts your lawn can completely change his attitude. Instead, of clinging to the safety of his kind he may feel more courage to mix with the Americans and learn their ways. It isn't something you owe him but it is mutually beneficial.





BananaKT added to this post, 31 minutes and 16 seconds later...

I encourage scepticism of essays posted on topics such as these because what may appear credible on the surface may not stand up to scrutiny.

Years ago a thesis was published at a university in Jamaica that claimed that twenty-one families (Jewish and white) controlled most of the wealth on the island and it fed conspiracy theories. The ideas in that thesis spread and although it was eventually discredited the document is still held as factual by some. Thankfully, it never escalated into anything more than gossip. The truth was that the wealthiest families in Jamaica at the time were black and their wealth came from agriculture, a sector that had been excluded from the statistics used in the thesis. Not everything written is truthful and half-truths are very dangerous so be cautious.

[Ray9]

Originally Posted by Ray9
No solution is possible until the Mexican government acknowleges that it is violating the civil rights of mestizo and indian citizens. Instead it is simply exporting its problems into the United States.



Originally Posted by Ray9
Immigrants? Don't you mean "illegal aliens"?



Make those two statements congruent.


I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you think our immigration laws are a violation of human rights? By the way, thank you for correcting my grammatical error.

[BananaKT]

There's something different about the people who are coming today. These people have no interest at all in the melting pot. They are not coming to become Americans, they are coming to feed their families.

I suspect the many immigrants before this wave travelled to America in the hope of feeding their families. However, I find it interesting that you say there's something different about the people. Is there something specific about the Mexican culture which you find incompatible with the American one?

[IrishGuy]

Immigrants? Don't you mean "illegal aliens"?

No I mean immigrants. Read your earlier post.....

If that were true it would be much less of a problem than it is. There's something different about the people who are coming today. These people have no interest at all in the melting pot. They are not coming to become Americans, they are coming to feed their families. The hapless and unjust government of Mexico is unable and probably unwilling to create an economy to support its populaton because to do so would require a cultural shift that would unseat the privleged class of pure Spanish heritage. The immigrants, both legal and illegal care nothing for americanization or even learning our language. It's the sheer numbers that causes the most serious problems because never in our history have so many come so quickly. They are like a swarm.

You are critical of immigrants in general and so is the article....

By and large, Americans have bought into the lie that it is their 'responsibility' to care for the poor of Mexico. What a coup for the Mexican government!

Legal and illegal immigrants from Mexico can be and usually are poor (generally why people move to the United States). The deception in the article is that it makes statements critical of Mexican immigrants in general and then talks about illegal Mexican immigrants and how the illegal Mexican immigrants are violating the law. Now this inconsistency in logic tends to slip by the casual reader, which is why arguments such as the article you posted are so effective at persuading a casual audience.

Here's the general format of that argument (politicians in particular like to use these kinds of arguments)

1)General criticism of a group
2)Specific, and sometimes legitimate criticism of a fraction of the group
3)Association of specific criticism with the general group

Deception is as easy as 1,2,3! ;D

[Profit]

This might be slightly off topic but I think it will address the idea of the cultural melting pot/assimilation.

I used to live in the DC area and found it to be an interesting, although much to crowded/built up, mix of people and cultures. I could hop in my car and within 10-15 minutes drive to an area dominated by a single 'foreign' group. There would be whole shopping centers full of restaurants and stores owned by and catering to specific immigrant groups. Often times there would even be a significant language barrier, something I experienced most when eating at either Mexican/Latin American or Korean restaurants. Honestly I found the whole experience of shopping/eating at these places as refreshing and a bit of an adventure. The food was authentic and the stores offered an interesting alternative to your regular Target or Walmart for everyday items. Obviously it wasn't the same as actually going to Mexico or Korea but it was a cross cultural experience that I enjoyed nonetheless. I think immigrants retaining more of their cultural heritage is, overall, a good thing for the US.

[IrishGuy]

This might be slightly off topic but I think it will address the idea of the cultural melting pot/assimilation.

I used to live in the DC area and found it to be an interesting, although much to crowded/built up, mix of people and cultures. I could hop in my car and within 10-15 minutes drive to an area dominated by a single 'foreign' group. There would be whole shopping centers full of restaurants and stores owned by and catering to specific immigrant groups. Often times there would even be a significant language barrier, something I experienced most when eating at either Mexican/Latin American or Korean restaurants. Honestly I found the whole experience of shopping/eating at these places as refreshing and a bit of an adventure. The food was authentic and the stores offered an interesting alternative to your regular Target or Walmart for everyday items. Obviously it wasn't the same as actually going to Mexico or Korea but it was a cross cultural experience that I enjoyed nonetheless. I think immigrants retaining more of their cultural heritage is, overall, a good thing for the US.

I feel the same way. I live in Orange County where in about a 10-15 miles there are not only American grocery stores and restaurants but also Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Mexican (no grocery stores that I know of but shops and restaurants), and Persian groceries stores, shops etc. It's extremely difficult to find this many options in one place. Very fortunate to have this diversity....

[Sinequanon]

2009: These Mexicans are invading our country and taking our jobs! They will destroy our civilization if left unchecked!
1909: These Irish are invading our country and taking our jobs! They will destroy our civilization if left unchecked!
1809: These white people are invading our country and taking our jobs! They will destroy our civilization if left unchecked!

Some arguments never die. :)

[Ray9]

Is there any way to debate this issue without resort to name calling and race baiting? I know this strategy is right out of the playbook of the Kool Aid-drinking, hate-America, leftist ideology that's taken hold in modern times, but this is a serious issue. Some of the Koolaiders in here appear to be trying to steer this issue in the direction of immigrant-bashing rather than government criticism. It's been repeatedly stated that the core problem is the Mexican government and its policies of human rights violations. The illegal immigrants are a secondary effect though the effect is alarming because this group has no interest in assimilating to American culture.

[TemperateSloth]

...I've noticed on my travels to the US that the people seem less friendly than they did 20+ years ago. I suspect that they are just being cautious in a dangerous world. However, for an immigrant coming from countries where they are used to people giving a short greeting to each person they meet it can be a bit isolating to be ignored and held in disdain by people who don't even know them. A simple wave or smile to the guy who cuts your lawn can completely change his attitude. Instead, of clinging to the safety of his kind he may feel more courage to mix with the Americans and learn their ways. It isn't something you owe him but it is mutually beneficial...When I was a child, in the late 50s and early 60s, my parents never locked the doors on the house, when we lived in the city of Los Angeles. Eventually, over the years, that changed.

As to being less friendly, I don't know - I still live in one of the suburban cities surrounding Los Angeles, but many people living here now are almost "hermetically sealed" in their cars between work and home, home and the supermarket, home and dropping their children off at school, etc. Perhaps those cities which are more "pedestrian friendly" might have more people who don't know each other greeting each other.

[Ray9]

Mexico had a gross domestic product (in terms of PPP) of more than US$1.3 trillion in 2007,[25] and more billionaires than Switzerland[26] (including Carlos Slim whom Time Magazine[27][28], ABC News, [29] and CNN Money [30] claim is the world's richest man and who owns 8% of the country's GDP[26]). Yet according to the World Bank 17.6% of Mexico's population lives in "extreme" poverty, while 30.1% live in "moderated" poverty, for a total of 47.7%.[31] In addition, the average annual income for a worker in Mexico is around USD$2,000. However, the poorest 40% of the population receive only about USD$550 annually and often fail to be able to afford adequate necessities. The large disparity between the upper income class and the lower income class is a key factor in the overall majority of workers in Mexico being poor and resorting to illegal acts to improve living situations.[32]




The leadership of Mexico uses the remittances of illegal immigrants to bolster its economy thus avoiding any effort to address the rampant and long established cultural human rights violations that condemn nearly half of its populaton to abject poverty. Unscrupulous employers and political hacks in the United States collude with the Mexican government to maintain what amounts to a slave trade pressing illegals into underground occupations where working conditions violate all or most American labor laws. Oddly, this is what many naive and uninformed Americans refer to as a win/win situation or the best of both worlds.

[Undead Bonzi]

Is there any way to debate this issue without resort to name calling and race baiting?

I know this strategy is right out of the playbook of the Kool Aid-drinking, hate-America, leftist ideology that's taken hold in modern times, but this is a serious issue. Some of the Koolaiders in here appear to be trying to steer this issue in the direction of immigrant-bashing rather than government criticism.

I pray to all the gods that do and don't exist that the contradictions inherent in your posts are intentional.

[Causa Mortis]

The leadership of Mexico uses the remittances of illegal immigrants to bolster its economy thus avoiding any effort to address the rampant and long established cultural human rights violations that condemn nearly half of its populaton to abject poverty. Unscrupulous employers and political hacks in the United States collude with the Mexican government to maintain what amounts to a slave trade pressing illegals into underground occupations where working conditions violate all or most American labor laws. Oddly, this is what many naive and uninformed Americans refer to as a win/win situation or the best of both worlds.

Its poverty is a reflection of its inability to properly manage fiscal or monetary policy, not anything to do with human rights. As a result, the peso is totally unstable. Because the peso is unstable, no one - not even Mexicans - want capital there. Without capital, guess what? No productivity, which means no income and no growth. A vicious cycle.

Human rights are better viewed as a consumer good - as income rises, demand for them spikes - than as a cultural static. The US/UK/France/Japan didn't exactly have a very nice human rights record when its real wages were 2-4 dollars per hour.

Additionally, ours senseless war on drugs is what's created ridiculous margins on the goods, and that's brought violence with it, just as prohibition on alcohol did here. The violence isn't exclusively a product of Mexico - its partly Mexico, but its also us.

And finally, its not "win-win" - its factor price equalization and efficient resource use, both of which have negative implications for unskilled labor in the US.

[Lucid]

Is there any way to debate this issue without resort to name calling and race baiting? I know this strategy is right out of the playbook of the Kool Aid-drinking, hate-America, leftist ideology that's taken hold in modern times, but this is a serious issue. Some of the Koolaiders in here appear to be trying to steer this issue in the direction of immigrant-bashing rather than government criticism. It's been repeatedly stated that the core problem is the Mexican government and its policies of human rights violations. The illegal immigrants are a secondary effect though the effect is alarming because this group has no interest in assimilating to American culture.

Actually, I think you're right. The issue is with the ruling class in Mexico. Illegal immigration is a problem, mostly because the illegal immigrants are extremely vulnerable here, they live in substandard conditions no one should have to live in. In addition, they drive down wages for both skilled and unskilled workers who are here legally. In addition, it's common for them to steal the identities of people (mostly Hispanic Americans) who are here legally in order to work.

Having said that, I'm not sure it's our place to step into a sovereign country and start telling them to make changes. But I do think we might be able to take some diplomatic or trade based steps to encourage them to improve things for themselves. Additionally, I think reforming our immigration system is essential.

I don't think it really matters whether they integrate into our culture or not. I'm happy to have Mexicans acting like Mexicans, Chinese acting like Chinese, Russians acting like Russians and Germans... well you get the idea. How boring if we all act the same way! However, it's in their own best interest to learn English. Again, not speaking the language in the country one has immigrated to makes one very vulnerable and severely limits one's options. It doesn't really affect my day if they don't speak the native language so I'm not sure what all the hullabaloo is about. Don't speak English? Too bad for you, buddy.

[IrishGuy]

Is there any way to debate this issue without resort to 2)name calling and 1)race baiting? I know this strategy is right out of the playbook of the 2)Kool Aid-drinking, hate-America, leftist ideology that's taken hold in modern times, but this is a serious issue. Some of the 2)Koolaiders in here appear to be trying to steer this issue in the direction of 3)immigrant-bashing rather than government criticism. It's been repeatedly 4)stated that the core problem is the Mexican government and its policies of human rights violations. 5)The illegal immigrants are a secondary effect though the effect is alarming because this group has no interest in assimilating to American culture.

1)The fish that eats the bait gets hooked and cooked.

2)Two and Two together.....

2)Leftist: that's not something I get called very often. I love America, my home, but I am also aware that our country is not without fault and that we do not always live up to our ideals. Criticism of our country and it's policies is very American. The first amendment was made a part of the constitution so that people could freely criticize the government, its policies, the general public etc. Thus, my criticism of the government, public etc. is decidedly American. Criticism of our country does not always equal a hatred of our country. I don't drink Kool-Aide. It's has virtually no nutritional value.

3)Then don't bash.....You claim that your argument is that Mexican government corruption leads to illegal immigration. Yet, you criticize both legal and illegal immigrants and complain about their perceived failure to integrate.

4)Question: If corruption in the Mexican government leading to human rights abuses is the primary driver of illegal Mexican emigration from Mexico to the United States, shouldn't we be treating the Mexican illegal immigrants as refugees instead of criminals? Aren't they the victims in all of this (especially now that Mexico has a full scale drug war taking place within its borders and to a lesser extent; in the United States)?

5)History indicates that all large immigrant groups become progressively more Americanized over time. I know this is true because I come across many first, second and third generation Mexican-Americans. Also, I think it is easy to assume that if a community remains non-americanized that that community has no interest in integration. However, couldn't this just be because people leave that community as they become more Americanized (spots of New York and Texas come to mind here).

New York is a general example but I can elaborate on Texas if necessary.

Its poverty is a reflection of its inability to properly manage fiscal or monetary policy, not anything to do with human rights. As a result, the peso is totally unstable. Because the peso is unstable, no one - not even Mexicans - want capital there. Without capital, guess what? No productivity, which means no income and no growth. A vicious cycle.

Human rights are better viewed as a consumer good - as income rises, demand for them spikes - than as a cultural static. The US/UK/France/Japan didn't exactly have a very nice human rights record when its real wages were 2-4 dollars per hour.

Additionally, ours senseless war on drugs is what's created ridiculous margins on the goods, and that's brought violence with it, just as prohibition on alcohol did here. The violence isn't exclusively a product of Mexico - its partly Mexico, but its also us.

And finally, its not "win-win" - its factor price equalization and efficient resource use, both of which have negative implications for unskilled labor in the US.

Good example; China. Corrupt government with a terrible record on human rights that managed to lift half a billion people out of poverty in less than a generation.
Note: I understand that the U.S. does not have a clean record on human rights.