What could I have said to my peers? [Importance of Politics and Voting]

[dandylion]

The other day, I said to a couple of my friends, "We're going to be able to vote in this general election! Who do you think you'll vote for?" One of them didn't respond, probably because the other one just went ahead and said, "I'm not going to vote," in a tone that sounded like it was the most obvious thing in the world. I asked her why, and she said that she thought politics was really "dumb" and that she didn't want to take part in it. She also said it was boring. I was going to argue that it was important, but I decided it was going to be futile, a lost cause if you will, so I just didn't bother. :embarassed: But thinking back on this, I think that might've been a bad idea. After all, it is important to participate in this kind of stuff when one has the chance to. What should I have said to someone who's so blatantly apathetic to this kind of stuff?

It's really sad that a majority of my peers are like that. I've only met a few people my age who actually are interested in discussing politics and care about things like that...

[Sleeper]

I am entirely surprised, politics is a messy thing and to most people, it is as mysterious as anything out there.

That and the fact that unless people recognize it having to have a direct and instantaneous effect on them, people are literally not going to give a damn.

The problem with that is that it takes quite a bit of educational background or interest for anyone to realize that effect.

[Genshin]

I asked one of my friends the same thing, and they responded the same way. I did the same thing you did and just ignore it, but looked back on it later and regretted doing that.
I figure now if I could go back I would probably have said something along the lines of, if everyone who had your attitude actually voted, then we might be able to get good change in this country (whatever that is). I don't know though, probably wouldn't have made a difference anyway.

[qwerty]

I guess if you want a comeback, just tell her that when she's ignorant to the world around her she can't really complain when she tries to buy a house when the interest rates are so high, or when her job sacks her or doesn't pay her enough money due to socio-economic trends bought about in a manifestation of opposing political pressures and reforms in legislative trends :P

Or at least point her to the Barack Obama song, yes we can (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) cause it's got a catchy tune (hehehehe, americans are crazy).

[dandylion]

The problem with that is that it takes quite a bit of educational background or interest for anyone to realize that effect.
Yeah, that's probably what her problem is.


I figure now if I could go back I would probably have said something along the lines of, if everyone who had your attitude actually voted, then we might be able to get good change in this country (whatever that is).
I actually almost said that to her, but then I decided not to. lol.


Or at least point her to the Barack Obama song, yes we can (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) cause it's got a catchy tune (hehehehe, americans are crazy).
lol, if I showed her that, she probably would've made a face and said, "What the hell... this is SO stupid/corny/etc. Someone has way too much time on their hands!"

Oh well, I don't want to get on this girl's case too much because we're going to be room mates. :scared:

[Gonzo]

Well I've only been able to vote for one election, but I chose not to vote. Not because I don't care. I'm very interested in politics and pay close attention to whats going on around me. But I just didn't find that any of the parties appealed to me. To quote my heroes Matt Stone and Trey Parker: "Whats the point of voting if its between a douche and a turd sandwich..." In other words I thought they were all retarded, and didn't really care which retard got elected.

So just because you don't vote, it doesn't mean you don't care. It can still be a well thought through decision ;)

[Bossy Mom]

If I don't vote, I don't have the right to complain (and since I'm so good at complaining, I obviously never fail to vote).

[quentin]

Philip Roth put it best:

Politicians are wary of art because it's wayward and ambiguous, because it deals with unquantifiable feelings. Lenin said he was afraid to listen to Beethoven because when he did he felt like caressing people's heads when it was necessary to beat them. But then art is all the things that politics isn't. "Politics," wrote Philip Roth, "is the great generaliser and literature the great particulariser, and not only are they in an inverse relationship to each other - they are in an antagonistic relationship...."

[ElstonGunn]

After all, it is important to participate in this kind of stuff when one has the chance to. What should I have said to someone who's so blatantly apathetic to this kind of stuff?

First of all, it's probably better than uninformed people don't take part in the system.

Secondly, if it's so important to vote, why does the Constitution say that the general population is too stupid and incompetent to elect its own president?


If I don't vote, I don't have the right to complain (and since I'm so good at complaining, I obviously never fail to vote).

I saw George Carlin saying the exact opposite once. If you vote, that means you took part in process. And if you assume that democracy is the greatest thing since sliced bread, then you have to accept the results. Otherwise you'd be saying that democracy is only good when your vote is the only one that matters. If you don't vote, you had nothing to do with the outcome. It's not your fault that the government sucks, so you can complain all you want. The way he phrased it was better but the point was that you can't complain about something that you brought on yourself.

[prometheus]

I saw George Carlin saying the exact opposite once. If you vote, that means you took part in process. And if you assume that democracy is the greatest thing since sliced bread, then you have to accept the results. Otherwise you'd be saying that democracy is only good when your vote is the only one that matters. If you don't vote, you had nothing to do with the outcome. It's not your fault that the government sucks, so you can complain all you want. The way he phrased it was better but the point was that you can't complain about something that you brought on yourself.

If voting could change anything it would be illegal.

It's the same message every election year: "Get out and vote - It's your civic duty." Those who audit the sound bites of the candidates, read headlines about the debates and finally pull the lever at their local precinct are touted as moral, upstanding citizens; those who find among the candidates no agreeable representative, no platform worthy of espousal, and who then refuse to turn out on election day, on the other hand, are labeled apathetic and the legitimacy of their opposition is denied.

Voting is implicitly a coercive act because it lends support to a compulsory state; voting reinforces the legitimacy of the state; and existing nonpolitical, voluntarist alternatives better serve society.

I highly recommend this book: Dissenting Electorate - An Anthology on Non-Voting

Here is a great read also. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[Mountain Lion]

You should have asked your friend "why?" Understand their logic and identify its flaws.

For instance, prometheus explained why he thinks voting is a bad idea:

Voting is implicitly a coercive act because it lends support to a compulsory state; voting reinforces the legitimacy of the state; and existing nonpolitical, voluntarism alternatives better serve society.



You could reply: "I understand you point of view, prometheus. But your logic is flawed. Governments are what we make of them. If you don't vote for the people who are willing to change the system, you give up the right to voice your opinion or objection. Non-voting is a poor choice in the current system, and no matter how you might rationalize it, and no matter how meaningful you think it is, you've made the least optimal choice available. I am disappointed in you."

[prometheus]

You should have asked your friend "why?" Understand their logic and identify its flaws.

For instance, prometheus explained why he thinks voting is a bad idea:



You could reply: "I understand you point of view, prometheus. But your logic is flawed. Governments are what we make of them. If you don't vote for the people who are willing to change the system, you give up the right to voice your opinion or objection. Non-voting is a poor choice in the current system, and no matter how you might rationalize it, and no matter how meaningful you think it is, you've made the least optimal choice available. I am disappointed in you."

I'll let Lysander Spooner's (the most adamant abolitionist) words answer your accusations.

No attempt or pretence, that was ever carried into practical operation amongst civilized men --- unless possibly the pretence of a "Divine Right," on the part of some, to govern and enslave others embodied so much of shameless absurdity, falsehood, impudence, robbery, usurpation, tyranny, and villany of every kind, as the attempt or pretence of establishing a government by consent, and getting the actual consent of only so many as may be necessary to keep the rest in subjection by force. Such a government is a mere conspiracy of the strong against the weak. It no more rests on consent than does the worst government on earth.

What substitute for their consent is offered to the weaker party, whose rights are thus annihilated, struck out of existence, by the stronger? Only this: Their consent is presumed! That is, these usurpers condescendingly and graciously presume that those whom they enslave, consent to surrender their all of life, liberty, and property into the hands of those who thus usurp dominion over them! And it is pretended that this presumption of their consent --- when no actual consent has been given --- is sufficient to save the rights of the victims, and to justify the usurpers! As well might the highwayman pretend to justify himself by presuming that the traveller consents to part with his money. As well might the assassin justify himself by simply presuming that his victim consents to part with his life. As well the holder of chattel slaves to himself by presuming that they consent to his authority, and to the whips and the robbery which he practises upon them. The presumption is simply a presumption that the weaker party consent to be slaves.

Such is the presumption on which alone our government relies to justify the power it maintains over its unwilling subjects. And it was to establish that presumption as the inexorable and perpetual law of this country, that so much money and blood have been expended.


Doubtless the most miserable of men, under the most oppressive government in the world, if allowed the ballot, would use it, if they could see any chance of thereby ameliorating their condition. But it would not therefore be a legitimate inference that the government itself, that crushes them, was one which they had voluntarily set up, or ever consented to.

Therefore a man's voting under the Constitution of the United States, is not to be taken as evidence that he ever freely assented to the Constitution, even for the time being. Consequently we have no proof that any very large portion, even of the actual voters of the United States, ever really and voluntarily consented to the Constitution, even for the time being. Nor can we ever have such proof, until every man is left perfectly free to consent, or not, without thereby subjecting himself or his property to injury or trespass from others.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[Mountain Lion]

It's one thing to argue against the legitimacy of a government, it's another to fail to use every mean at one's disposal to influence political process. Use the system to change it. It's naive to think that by ignoring the problem it will go away.

[prometheus]

It's one thing to argue against the legitimacy of a government, it's another to fail to use every mean at one's disposal to influence political process. Use the system to change it. It's naive to think that by ignoring the problem it will go away.

Not at all. The government was given it's power by the consent of the governed, when the people withdrawal that consent, it ceases to exist as a government and is show to be what it has been all along, a criminal gang.

[coffeeloverfreak]

I always say that if you don't vote, you lose your right to complain. You have to participate in the process. Even spoiling your ballot is making a statement. But apathy has no excuse.

Or just show them footage of people all over the world fighting and dying for their right to vote. When people risk life and limb to have their say, it drives home the point: voting is not only a responsibility, it's a cherished right.

[Sylvanus]

Not at all. The government was given it's power by the consent of the governed, when the people withdrawal that consent, it ceases to exist as a government and is show to be what it has been all along, a criminal gang.

The only way to truly withdraw your consent is with gunfire and blood.

[Mountain Lion]

And when that happens... anyone heard of late Alfredo Reinhado (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)from East Timor :undecided:

[Tsuru]

I'm not going to be voting this time around since the only choices are going to be completely atrocious. Whether it's Clinton or Obama or McCain, they're only going to lead us into a path of more war and bigger government and bring us closer to eventual collapse. I don't want to give any of them sanction merely because one is slightly less reprehensible than the others.

As for apathy, personally, I'd MUCH rather be seeing uninformed and disinterested people NOT vote than to see them voting for stupid or shallow reasons. Someone said to me the other day that they don't care about politics at all - they will just be voting for Hillary solely because she's a woman - they don't care at all what she does in office. For people like that, I'd rather they didn't vote. I hate that a total dunce has the same voting power as a well informed and thoughtful person, so I'm not big on encouraging them. :P

[coffeeloverfreak]

Don't like the candidates? So start a write-in campaign. Lodge a protest vote. Do something.

Apathy is the worst response.

[prometheus]

I don't want to give any of them sanction merely because one is slightly less reprehensible than the others.




Well put.

[Antares]

My friends give similar responses every time I ask for their opinion or try to go into anything more 'serious'. That's why I'm so frustrated. Instead of being able to communicate about Psychology once in a while, I'm stuck talking about the latest dating gossip. I would suspect their apparent apathy to politics is because of their ignorance. Some of them just don't see how politics matters. I can forgive that for that for most of them are pampered like anything; a pleasant facade over all the unpleasant things in life. Oh well. They're still 14. Maybe I should cut them a break.

[prometheus]

To see why IF you vote you have no right to complain.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[thod]

You could always declare the republic of Montana is going to leave the union and be an independent country, thats your right isnt it. After all the US always supports other countries when the population wants to break away from a larger state to form its own. I mean if the southern states wanted to break away and create a country known as Dixie. They would respect the will of the people wouldnt they.

[pavman]

LOL.

I remember an INTJish type colleague telling me if voting mattered, it would be illegal. To an extent this is true. After all, the Presidential election is in the hands of the Electoral College. But that doesn't mean the people in the College are all dishonest; in fact, the College tends to vote with the people, unless there's a major reason not to.

For the other, local elections...it matters. Big time. More importantly is getting involved at a city council level, because this really does affect you and I more than you and I will ever realize. That parking fine that just went up? City Council. No more guns of any kind? City Council. Fine for smoking in or near a public doorway city .... err... state government, in my state's case anyway.

[prometheus]

You could always declare the republic of Montana is going to leave the union and be an independent country, thats your right isnt it. After all the US always supports other countries when the population wants to break away from a larger state to form its own. I mean if the southern states wanted to break away and create a country known as Dixie. They would respect the will of the people wouldnt they.


Funny you mentioned this, since we joined after the "War of Northern Aggression" ;) We took some precautions. :p:laugh:


An interesting wrinkle in the gun-rights controversy: Various Montana politicians have signed a resolution arguing that anything other than an individual-right interpretation of the Second Amendment (at issue in the forthcoming Supreme Court case Heller v. D.C.) would violate the compact between Montana and the U.S.

Excerpts from the resolution:

WHEREAS, when the Court determines in Heller whether or not the Second Amendment secures an individual right, the Court will establish precedent that will affect the State of Montana and the political rights of the citizens of Montana;

WHEREAS, when Montana entered into statehood in 1889, that entrance was accomplished by a contract between Montana and the several states, a contract known as The Compact With The United States (Compact), found today as Article I of the Montana Constitution;

WHEREAS, with authority from Congress acting as agent for the several states, President Benjamin Harrison approved the Montana Constitution in 1889, which secured the right of "any person" to bear arms, clearly intended as an individual right and an individual right deemed consistent then with the Second Amendment by the parties to the contract;

............
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED by the undersigned members of the 60th Montana Legislature as follows:

1. That any form of "collective rights" holding by the Court in Heller will offend the Compact; and.........4. Montana reserves all usual rights and remedies under historic contract law if its Compact should be violated by any "collective rights" holding in Heller.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.





prometheus added to this post, 40 minutes and 52 seconds later...

LOL.

For the other, local elections...it matters. Big time. More importantly is getting involved at a city council level, because this really does affect you and I more than you and I will ever realize. That parking fine that just went up? City Council. No more guns of any kind? City Council. Fine for smoking in or near a public doorway city .... err... state government, in my state's case anyway.

Yea, I've had problems quiting at the local level (the Federal level crack cocaine I've sworn off, but still get tempted by the local level doobie) , especially since my community is very like minded. I still look forward to the day when voting will not be necessary.

[thod]

What to do about Montana then.

If the US refuses to trade with Montana what then. No aircraft or ships can reach it since its landlocked. It doesnt have many resources within its borders. All corporates will pull out or be proscecuted for trading with the enemy. Most of the populace will allowed to flee reaminingf US citizens leaving just a core of Montana citizens. Without metals for bullets they will be wearing animal skins and sharp sticks. We could organise border hunting trips "Bag a brace of Montana mountain men". We could even set a bounty, $20 for every montana head. It has its advantages, all the toxic waste companies could ship thier gunk for disposal on non US soil. Drug gangs would move in etc.

[prometheus]

What to do about Montana then.

If the US refuses to trade with Montana what then. No aircraft or ships can reach it since its landlocked. It doesnt have many resources within its borders. All corporates will pull out or be proscecuted for trading with the enemy. Most of the populace will allowed to flee reaminingf US citizens leaving just a core of Montana citizens. Without metals for bullets they will be wearing animal skins and sharp sticks. We could organise border hunting trips "Bag a brace of Montana mountain men". We could even set a bounty, $20 for every montana head. It has its advantages, all the toxic waste companies could ship thier gunk for disposal on non US soil. Drug gangs would move in etc.

Where the fuck do you live, and how did you get such a shoddy education? Montana has an international border the largest in the lower 48 IIRC.

MONTANA RESOURCES:

Timber

Forests cover about 23,000,000 acres (9,300,000 hectares) or almost one-quarter of Montana. More than 14,000,000 acres (5,700,00 hectares) of this total are commercial forest. The manufacture of lumber and wood products is the state's leading industrial activity. Montana is one of the nation's top producers of softwood logs, most of which are processed into lumber at Montana sawmills.


Montana's lumber production was just over 1.20 billion board feet in 2000, down 10 percent from 1.34 billion board feet in 1999. Plywood production also decreased to about 580 million square feet in 2000. On the other hand, the log-home industry and some secondary sectors experienced production increases. The state's Christmas-tree industry remains depressed, falling from a peak in the early 1990s.



Agriculture

Agriculture is Montana's leading industry. In 2000 there were about 27,600 farms and ranches in Montana, working 56,700,000 acres. The proportion of Montana land currently included in farms and ranches is approximately 65 percent. Large-scale farming is the rule, with the average operation involving 2,054 acres. The state includes 1,600,000 acres of irrigated cropland.


Since the early 1990s, Montana farmers and ranchers have been directly responsible for about 11 percent of all economic output in the state, with products valued at over $2 billion a year. In 2000 Montana exported agricultural commodities totaling $259,800,000.


Montana produces barley, rice, oats, corn, hay, sugar beets, and some specialized "niche crops" (like mint), but its main crop focus is wheat. Montana is third among wheat-producing states in the U.S. Despite another drought year in 2000, the state produced 135,210,000 bushels of wheat.


Montana farmers and ranchers raise hogs, sheep, dairy cattle, llamas, and horses. However, beef cattle dominate Montana's livestock scene, and rising market prices the last two years have improved the industry. Together, wheat and beef provide almost 75 percent of the income received by operators from the sale of their commodities. In 1999 there were 2,700,000 cattle in Montana, or almost 3 head per human resident!



Mineral Production

Montana contains vast deposits of two important minerals--coal and petroleum. Its coal reserves are the largest in the nation, and its undeveloped oil and natural gas holdings are equally impressive. The mountain ranges of central, southern, and western Montana hold large ore deposits, including copper, gold, lead, silver, and zinc.


The state also is a national leader in the production of talc, vermiculite, platinum, and palladium.





Oh and we have over 200 ICBM nukes........so your little socialist shit hole country had better not fuck with us. ;):laugh::p

Think about the "American" businesses that would love to operate without all the Federal taxes and regulatory bullshit.

[thod]

You reckon Canada would go up against the US to let stuff into Montana?

I have to say my knowledge of Montana is very limited. I see it as one of them rocky mountain states full of trees. People live in log cabins, eat bear meat and drink impure moonshine. I imagine they play banjos and backpackers are nervous.

Thats what you get when you live on a different continent and watch TV.

[prometheus]

We also have the highest per capita firearm ownership rate out of all 50 states.

Speaking of casting bullets, did you see the "Montana hold large ore deposits, including copper..... lead" It was right there by:

"Montana is one of the nation's top producers of softwood logs"

"Montana is third among wheat-producing states in the U.S."

"In 1999 there were 2,700,000 cattle in Montana, or almost 3 head per human resident!"

"Its coal reserves are the largest in the nation, , and its undeveloped oil and natural gas holdings are equally impressive."

"The state also is a national leader in the production of talc, vermiculite, platinum, and palladium"





prometheus added to this post, 3 minutes and 4 seconds later...

You reckon Canada would go up against the US to let stuff into Montana?

I have to say my knowledge of Montana is very limited. I see it as one of them rocky mountain states full of trees. People live in log cabins, eat bear meat and drink impure moonshine. I imagine they play banjos and backpackers are nervous.

Thats what you get when you live on a different continent and watch TV.


I bet yous has a purty mouf. :rolleyes:

I bet China and Russia would recognize us after all the shit the US has been doing with Kosovo and Taiwan.

[pavman]

So if the SC rules in favor of "militia" over individual rights... then Montana would have the right to secede? LOL I'm moving if that happens... know anyone who can accept a firearms transfer? ;)

[prometheus]

So if the SC rules in favor of "militia" over individual rights... then Montana would have the right to secede? LOL I'm moving if that happens... know anyone who can accept a firearms transfer? ;)

That is correct, we had a secession bill back in '94 also. We had 3 awesome 10th amendment bills last year, one passed; the "anti-real ID" one and it's just a matter of time 'till we get the rest through. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

The Made in Montana Firearms bill: AKA The interstate commerce clause is BS. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

and our "Alaska Carry" bill. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Yea, I know a few dozen FFL people.





prometheus added to this post, 297 minutes and 44 seconds later...

Nudge back towards topic. Fuck the Vote (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)

[PRBori]

I'm bias at this point. Actually I've never voted. Not that I don't follow politics, but I just don't like the fact that I need to take the date off and go to a crowded place to vote.

Also, I don't complain much... I'm so focus on my goals right now that anything else doesn't really matter that much. My job is very demanding, or should I say extremely demanding, and when I get home, well let's say I have a 3 year old just waiting for me to spend time with her...

Wish I had a maid too... got to do work around the house as well, so honestly time is not there.

I'll just let you all guys decide who's next...

[prometheus]

I'm bias at this point. Actually I've never voted. Not that I don't follow politics, but I just don't like the fact that I need to take the date off and go to a crowded place to vote.

Also, I don't complain much... I'm so focus on my goals right now that anything else doesn't really matter that much. My job is very demanding, or should I say extremely demanding, and when I get home, well let's say I have a 3 year old just waiting for me to spend time with her...

Wish I had a maid too... got to do work around the house as well, so honestly time is not there.

I'll just let you all guys decide who's next...

Why bother (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. %20%20eo)

[Sylvanus]

Why bother (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. %20%20eo)

That was too funny, I didn't know the Onion did video reports now.

[Caramel]

Why bother (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. %20%20eo)

Hahahah thank you for posting that :thumbsup:

[prometheus]

Minor re-jack:

If Montana were to secede from the union to become its own sovereign nation (and don't push us, man, we'll do it), we would instantly become the world's fourth-largest (known) nuclear power. Innocuous white concrete bunkers sprouted in fields and valleys across 23,000 acres of central Montana contain some 200 Minuteman III intercontinental ballistic missiles equipped with nuclear warheads and watched over by 55 "missileers" of the Air Force's 341st Space Wing. Don't mess with Texas? We've got three words for the Lone Star State: Bring. It. On.

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

[coffeeloverfreak]

To all you people promoting secession, just look to Quebec as a cautionary tale for what happens when you let the issue dominate your political landscape.

[Jerry]

Most people who are "interested" in politics are simply well-intentioned brainwashed people. NOT ALL!!! Just the majority of people who vote.

[prometheus]

To all you people promoting secession, just look to Quebec as a cautionary tale for what happens when you let the issue dominate your political landscape.

Because?





prometheus added to this post, 0 minutes and 54 seconds later...

Most people who are "interested" in politics are simply well-intentioned brainwashed people. NOT ALL!!! Just the majority of people who vote.


Lucky you threw that last part in. ;)

[Jerry]

Yes and I would change one thing. Many of the people I labeled "well-intentioned" are simply self-serving and are interested in entitlements.