What would happen if the Germans won during World War II?

[gianagianan]

im just wondering...

[Trivani]

Europe would have turned into a socialist union that doesn't respect the sovereign rights of the individual states. oh wait...

[themuzicman]

The cold war would have been with Europe, not the USSR.

[JonD]

Let's say the Germans did the smart thing and did not attack Russia. Eventually, the Germans, despite the Brit's advantage of radar, would have overcame and defeated the Royal Air Force, and Germans would have landed in Britain, and occupied it. At this point, they would have, for the most part, conquered Europe. The continent would have been at the hands of the Nazis, and they would eventually have either looked towards the US, or Russia next. I would say Russia, since, historically speaking, the Germans have been more inclined to fight on land than by air or by sea. Since they would have been fighting a one front war, they would have more of a chance at defeating Russia than in WWII.. Remember, the Nazis were quite close to capturing all of Russia's major cities, Leningrad, Stalingrad, and Moscow in WWII. I would therefore argue because of the one front war, they would have won. Some kind of half-assed order would be in place in Russia, because of the immense geographical distribution of the people.

Of course, the US would soon invent the bomb, and everything would be flipped upside down. The US would threaten to use it, and Hitler would call a bluff, and the US would drop a bomb on a major German city. They'd follow much the same approach with Japan in this case. The US would drop a bomb on a city, wait a few days, drop another, and so on. At this point one of two things would happen. Either Hitler would surrender, and a peace treaty would be negotiated, or an uprising would take power from Hitler, and Europe would be divided up.

If the former event occured, Hitler would have his hands on Germany, Austria, and Czechoslovakia, since those countries were seized, not won through war. I think the US would have rather had a soviet Russia than a nazi Russia, which is why I think Russia would be returned. From there, nazism would continue on, and as long as Hitler never got his hands on the bomb, he would stay there. Or, if after taking over Russia, they got their hands on plans for the bomb, and continued on with the plight, they might have the bomb. But at that point, the US would still be more prepared for nuclear war, and a pseudo cold war would ensue.

If the latter event occured, I think everything non-German would be returned, depending on the nature of the uprising.

If the US hadn't invented the bomb, then Germany might've eventually attacked the West. Until better planes, and aircraft carriers were invented, there wouldn't be much of a war happening until they developed these, or other technological means to fight a long distance war. Who would win this war depends on who amassed their resources properly. The nazis were brilliant organizers, but with this type of governance, they would need more than an iron fist to keep Europe + Russia under control, and exploit it properly. I don't think, not that any of this is really practical, that they would have won a long range war against the US, unless they invented the bomb before the US did. Even then, I can't see Germans invading the US. The US were always more of a threat to Germany, not a target in WWII. But, Hitler made quite clear his plan was world domination. Also, his age would have to be taken into account. Hitler was not a healthy man, and was stressed to his breaking point when he died. I don't think he would have lasted another decade, which is how much longer this would've taken. So his successor would probably determine the fate of the US, and the Nazi state.

[Profit]

Let's say the Germans did the smart thing and did not attack Russia.

Seeing how the initial attack on GB failed to knock out the British air force and Germany was not in a position to invade the island I would argue that attacking Stalin was probably the best move to make at the time. Having neutralized GB as a threat Hitler assumed he could knock out the Soviets quickly, something he almost achieved. If he had been able to pull this off he would have had total control over continental Europe. From this point he could have consolidated his defenses and prepared for an invasion of GB. After all the only reason the US and the British were able to open up a front in western Europe was the fact that Russians were still in it. D-Day has no chance if working if Hitler's eastern front is secure. The non aggression pact between Hitler and Stalin was basically an agreement not to attack each other for the time being, both leaders knew that they would eventually have to fight it out. Hitler believed attacking sooner rather than later was in his best interests. Delaying the fight would have just given Stalin more time to prepare.

Actually I like your post though. One has to wonder if Roosevelt would have been able to involve the US in the event of a Nazi invasion of GB. Something tells me he would have found a way to enter the war. Although the Brits would have had to hold out for sometime in order to give the US time to mobilize.

[TemperateSloth]

im just wondering...You might find the following book of interest, but as a quick caution, there are lots and lots of spoilers at this link if you have not yet read it:

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[Night Runner]

Let's say the Germans did the smart thing and did not attack Russia.

A number of Russian documents declassified after the collapse of the Soviet Union suggest that Stalin had been preparing to invade Germany, and Hitler beat him...

[Son of the Sun]

I would speak German...
The most important thing was beating UK. After 1941 it was Best American Carrier, and fetter many airplanes (I'm not quite sure, even 60%). And anti - air system connected with radar system was very expensive. Fact, that London was still independent was very important for conquered nations in Europe, they received from London backup and allied propaganda. If UK would collapse, their african colonies may don't have enough forces to stop Rommel, or just surrend like French, he could go to Palestine and pro - German Iraq and Iran. Hitler hoped that Turkey would join him than - and he could be right, with Turkey in his coalition, it wouldn't be great problem to capture Caucasus and it's oil.
As we saw in WWI, Germany couldn't win war at 2 fronts, he should first beat UK at all costs, than start party with Stalin.

Hitler wasn't thinking globally, his mentality stopped at WWI and was only about Europe. He didn't care for colonies or gathering allies in the world (abstracting of Japany, but well, they wasn't even cooperating, just they had some common enemies). Hitler had great luck, and perfect commanders that he could beat stronger France, and go through USRR ( Stalin executed best commanders, French were capitulate - lovers), but he had no chances against USA, USRR and CommonWealth. If he would won war, he had to make deal with one of them, CommonWealth was not able to convince, USA was involved to war by Japany, so USRR left. Would Stalin atack Festung Europa? He had little chances.

Germans were working on atom bomb, and were very advanced in 1945, but they used bad way to make it - using tons of uranium, instead of a little like in American conception. They were able to construct it, not really able to launch it on USA. And for their 1 bomb, USA could made 10.

[JonD]

Seeing how the initial attack on GB failed to knock out the British air force and Germany was not in a position to invade the island I would argue that attacking Stalin was probably the best move to make at the time. Having neutralized GB as a threat Hitler assumed he could knock out the Soviets quickly, something he almost achieved. If he had been able to pull this off he would have had total control over continental Europe. From this point he could have consolidated his defenses and prepared for an invasion of GB. After all the only reason the US and the British were able to open up a front in western Europe was the fact that Russians were still in it. D-Day has no chance if working if Hitler's eastern front is secure. The non aggression pact between Hitler and Stalin was basically an agreement not to attack each other for the time being, both leaders knew that they would eventually have to fight it out. Hitler believed attacking sooner rather than later was in his best interests. Delaying the fight would have just given Stalin more time to prepare.


Actually, I'd have to agree with you about how attacking Russia was a good move at the time. It's just that the attack day kept getting pushed further and further into the summer. If this hadn't happened, they might've succeeded.

To go on a bit more about GB, I don't recall the Germans had any invasion force in mind with GB. They just wanted to neutralize them as a threat in the short term. I just don't recall any troop carriers of German design being mentioned. But then again, all of my speculation is based off of a mediocre high-school class on WWII, and one amazing book: The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer.

A number of Russian documents declassified after the collapse of the Soviet Union suggest that Stalin had been preparing to invade Germany, and Hitler beat him...

Most interesting! In my version of a nazi victory in Europe, if victory over GB took too long, this factor would have to be taken into consideration. If you have any links to this stuff, it would be very appreciated.

[thod]

To go on a bit more about GB, I don't recall the Germans had any invasion force in mind with GB. They just wanted to neutralize them as a threat in the short term. I just don't recall any troop carriers of German design being mentioned.

Hitler didn't want to fight them at all, he held them in some regard being empire holders and Aryans, almost honorary Germans. GB declared war on Germany. The problem Hitler faced was not beating the British Army, it was getting to fight them. GB has the unique advantage of being an island and thus no army can reach it without first defeating the royal navy. The British navy was vastly superior to the German. Had Hitler landed the plan was to delay them, the royal navy would cut off their supply routes and they would run out of bullets and food. Hitler had a choice, he could spend large resources to build a navy which would only be used once or to attack Russia. He did not want to build a navy just to attack GB. He figured he would defeat Russia and come back for GB in the future. The arrival of the US changed this. GB now had the supplies it needed and more troops from the US. Hitler's lack of a navy meant they were able to transport them across the Atlantic without threat. Thus it was not just his invasion of Russia that created defeat, it was his lack of a navy.

All this talk of A-bombs (developed by Germans) would not matter had he had a navy. There would be no way for the US to deliver such a bomb.

[Night Runner]

Most interesting! In my version of a nazi victory in Europe, if victory over GB took too long, this factor would have to be taken into consideration. If you have any links to this stuff, it would be very appreciated.

This theory is the creation of one Viktor Suvorov (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.), a former GRU operative (GRU was KGB's shadow - the other secret agency) who switched sides and did a lot of digging in archives for his books. The linked wiki article has all the basic information about his theory, as well as arguments for and against it.

[ToC]

I think Harry Turtledove might have a word or two on that.

[Mader]

The original question was What would have happenend if Hitler won the war. I am assuming here that he won Europe, The US, Canada, Africa, kept Poland and other new territories. I am assuming that Hitler did not win Russia. I am also avoiding the war with Japan, and Mussilini.

-Hitler and Mussilini would have either turned against each other or joined forces with Mussilini being knocked of at a later date.
-The two superpowers would be Germany and Russia, maybe China.
-No Jews, anywhere.
-No Catholics, anywhere.
-No Gypsies
-Pretty sure no blacks
-Noone who puts God ahead of Hitler would not be here.
-The US/British/French ruling classes would be eliminated
-No mentally disabled
-No physically disabled.
-Significantly reduced services for premature birth or children born with certain needs - an excellent way to weed out the weaker members of the species.
-Voluneer workers/slaves would be mining natural resources the old fashioned way.
-AIDS would not have been treated 'cause it was a great way to kill off all the gays.
-The economies under Hitler and his future replacements would be military focused, even empoverishing the citizens (read North Korea)
-Drug addicts would be put out of their misery.
-Nursing homes would not exist - if Granny can't live with the family, then her time is over. If a young person had a terrible auto accident, Hitler would prefer that that young man didn't weigh down the state.
-Women would not be working outside the home - the woman's job, only job, was to bear little Aryans. A happy marriage was less important than birthing blond haired blue eyed babies
-Hitler would control all energy and focus all resources to Berlin and the military government.
-No self government, but many small rebellions over the years.
-All communication would be controlled (like No. Korea)

So, the policy that Germany would have put in place would have reduced our health, negative population growth, lower life expectancy stats

The Pluses
-We could drive our old-fashioned Beetles on the American autobahn - out west such as Wyoming - at any speed we can reach.
-I would kknow all the words to the song Edelweiss.
-Excellent pastries
-America would be a very clean place.
-Polka every Satuday night.

[thod]

So, the policy that Germany would have put in place would have reduced our health

If you eliminate anyone with a slight health defect then the remaining population must be healthier. The prodigious baby production would offset this process. Such selective breeding would over time result in a healthier population being born. You really can reduce cancer by killing individuals and their families that are susceptible to it. Average life expectancy would be shorter, but not health.

I recall Pol Pot killed anyone that wore glasses, suspected intellectuals. I would expect this generation of Cambodians to have a lesser instance of eye defects as a result.

[Ray9]

The only way the Nazis could have won the war was if they had assassinated Hitler and put in his place more competent leadership. At the time Germany was light years ahead of anyone else in military power and they had the resources to conduct a long campaign toward world domination. Hitler's paranioa was the undoing of the Nazi machine. Let's not forget that the first thing Hitler did when he rose to power was murder many of the people who put him there because he considered them a threat. Hitler made a series of bad decisions one of which was to replace some of his best and most experienced generals with trusted "yes" men.

Had the Germans been able to conquer Great Britain it's entirely likely they would have nazified the population very quickly and gained an important ally in their quest for global rule. The Japanese ruined any chance Germany had by their surprise attack on Pearl Harbor which galvanized the population of the United States to enter the war and because the USA is so large and powerful it would have written the final chapter with or without the atomic bomb. There is some very credible evidence that the Brits and Americans had broken the Japanese codes and knew about the planned attack but Chruchill and Roosevelt conspired to sacrifice the Hawaiin base to facilitate the entry of the US into the war. Up until then then the prevailing sentiment of the US ws to remain nuetral.

If the Japanese had not attacked Pearl Harbor or if the attack failed the Germans would likely have gone on to take England while America stayed out of the conflict. Then the Germans along with the Brits would have attacked and defeated Stalin's Russia after a long, protracted effort. The Germans would have won World War Two because the US would not have been in it. At The conclusion of the war facism would probably have arisen in the United States and it too would begin building a massive military machine.

The Germans who by this time had their hands full would not confront the USA but but they would probably turn on the Japanese and together with the USA attack and defeat them. The world would then be divided between Germany and the USA and everyone would be living under facism. The Jews would probably be extinct today and many minorities including blacks would be identified, rounded up and shipped back to their place of origin. If the Germans had won it would truly be a white man's world.

[Hamburglar]

The only way the Nazis could have won the war was if they had assassinated Hitler and put in his place more competent leadership. At the time Germany was light years ahead of anyone else in military power and they had the resources to conduct a long campaign toward world domination. Hitler's paranioa was the undoing of the Nazi machine. Let's not forget that the first thing Hitler did when he rose to power was murder many of the people who put him there because he considered them a threat. Hitler made a series of bad decisions one of which was to replace some of his best and most experienced generals with trusted "yes" men.

Had the Germans been able to conquer Great Britain it's entirely likely they would have nazified the population very quickly and gained an important ally in their quest for global rule. The Japanese ruined any chance Germany had by their surprise attack on Pearl Harbor which galvanized the population of the United States to enter the war and because the USA is so large and powerful it would have written the final chapter with or without the atomic bomb. There is some very credible evidence that the Brits and Americans had broken the Japanese codes and knew about the planned attack but Chruchill and Roosevelt conspired to sacrifice the Hawaiin base to facilitate the entry of the US into the war. Up until then then the prevailing sentiment of the US ws to remain nuetral.

If the Japanese had not attacked Pearl Harbor or if the attack failed the Germans would likely have gone on to take England while America stayed out of the conflict. Then the Germans along with the Brits would have attacked and defeated Stalin's Russia after a long, protracted effort. The Germans would have won World War Two because the US would not have been in it. At The conclusion of the war facism would probably have arisen in the United States and it too would begin building a massive military machine.

The Germans who by this time had their hands full would not confront the USA but but they would probably turn on the Japanese and together with the USA attack and defeat them. The world would then be divided between Germany and the USA and everyone would be living under facism. The Jews would probably be extinct today and many minorities including blacks would be identified, rounded up and shipped back to their place of origin. If the Germans had won it would truly be a white man's world.

There is no way that Germany would have ever attacked Japan. If Japan had focused its effort on succeeding with the C&C of mainland China they would have lost all need for alliances and would have became the third great power. Japan was far more powerful than many Americans would like to admit, and their supposed "territorial ambitions" were merely a result of the increased demand for raw materials due to the industrial boom that America unleashed at the conclusion of the first great war. If American had let Japan become a world power and taken over mainland china we could have killed two birds with one stone- chinese communism and a credible trading partner/ally against Germany, and later "expansionist" Russia.

[Night Runner]

If American had let Japan become a world power and taken over mainland china we could have killed two birds with one stone- chinese communism and a credible trading partner/ally against Germany, and later "expansionist" Russia.

There was no Chinese communism during the WW2. Mao and his rebels were still roaming the countryside, and didn't come to power until several years later (1949, if I recall correctly).

[Muadib]

Let's say the Germans did the smart thing and did not attack Russia. Eventually, the Germans, despite the Brit's advantage of radar, would have overcame and defeated the Royal Air Force, and Germans would have landed in Britain, and occupied it. At this point, they would have, for the most part, conquered Europe. The continent would have been at the hands of the Nazis, and they would eventually have either looked towards the US, or Russia next. I would say Russia, since, historically speaking, the Germans have been more inclined to fight on land than by air or by sea. Since they would have been fighting a one front war, they would have more of a chance at defeating Russia than in WWII.. Remember, the Nazis were quite close to capturing all of Russia's major cities, Leningrad, Stalingrad, and Moscow in WWII. I would therefore argue because of the one front war, they would have won. Some kind of half-assed order would be in place in Russia, because of the immense geographical distribution of the people.

Of course, the US would soon invent the bomb, and everything would be flipped upside down. The US would threaten to use it, and Hitler would call a bluff, and the US would drop a bomb on a major German city. They'd follow much the same approach with Japan in this case. The US would drop a bomb on a city, wait a few days, drop another, and so on. At this point one of two things would happen. Either Hitler would surrender, and a peace treaty would be negotiated, or an uprising would take power from Hitler, and Europe would be divided up.

If the former event occured, Hitler would have his hands on Germany, Austria, and Czechoslovakia, since those countries were seized, not won through war. I think the US would have rather had a soviet Russia than a nazi Russia, which is why I think Russia would be returned. From there, nazism would continue on, and as long as Hitler never got his hands on the bomb, he would stay there. Or, if after taking over Russia, they got their hands on plans for the bomb, and continued on with the plight, they might have the bomb. But at that point, the US would still be more prepared for nuclear war, and a pseudo cold war would ensue.

If the latter event occured, I think everything non-German would be returned, depending on the nature of the uprising.

If the US hadn't invented the bomb, then Germany might've eventually attacked the West. Until better planes, and aircraft carriers were invented, there wouldn't be much of a war happening until they developed these, or other technological means to fight a long distance war. Who would win this war depends on who amassed their resources properly. The nazis were brilliant organizers, but with this type of governance, they would need more than an iron fist to keep Europe + Russia under control, and exploit it properly. I don't think, not that any of this is really practical, that they would have won a long range war against the US, unless they invented the bomb before the US did. Even then, I can't see Germans invading the US. The US were always more of a threat to Germany, not a target in WWII. But, Hitler made quite clear his plan was world domination. Also, his age would have to be taken into account. Hitler was not a healthy man, and was stressed to his breaking point when he died. I don't think he would have lasted another decade, which is how much longer this would've taken. So his successor would probably determine the fate of the US, and the Nazi state.

Without the defeat of Germany and the extradition of many scientists and documents Germany would have had the bomb long before the US ever did.

[Lucid]

There was no Chinese communism during the WW2. Mao and his rebels were still roaming the countryside, and didn't come to power until several years later (1949, if I recall correctly).

And there wouldn't have been if they'd been conquered by the Japanese.

[Hamburglar]

And there wouldn't have been if they'd been conquered by the Japanese.

exactly. As an aside, this would have been no different than the US conquering Mexico and Native American tribes in its quest for territorial expansion.

[Luciferi]

Time to set the record straight (in limited quantities for now, though).


Eventually, the Germans, despite the Brit's advantage of radar, would have overcame and defeated the Royal Air Force, and Germans would have landed in Britain, and occupied it. At this point, they would have, for the most part, conquered Europe. The continent would have been at the hands of the Nazis, and they would eventually have either looked towards the US, or Russia next.

First of all, the UK declared war on Germany which they did because they had promised, after WW1, to protect Poland if she were attacked. The Germans only went into Poland because they wanted to take back their ancestral homelands that were stolen from them at the end of WW1 and which still had many ethnic Germans living there. The Germans were not at all interested in a war with anybody else, particularly not the UK.

In the spring 1941, Hess parachuted into the UK to deliver peace terms. Instead, he was arrested and imprisoned and the UK carried on the war and the destruction of many more lives, even though there is evidence that the intended recipients of these terms did receive them. Too bad Churchill was a warmonger. As for the rest of Europe, Germany wasn't interested in it.

Of course, the US would soon invent the bomb, and everything would be flipped upside down. The US would threaten to use it, and Hitler would call a bluff, and the US would drop a bomb on a major German city. They'd follow much the same approach with Japan in this case. The US would drop a bomb on a city, wait a few days, drop another, and so on. At this point one of two things would happen. Either Hitler would surrender, and a peace treaty would be negotiated, or an uprising would take power from Hitler, and Europe would be divided up.


For the record, the Japanese had been trying to surrender for three weeks before the US bombed them and all Allied powers and the Soviets knew about it.

If the US hadn't invented the bomb, then Germany might've eventually attacked the West.

Doubt it. Aside from a lack of interest in doing so, they had no resources.

But, Hitler made quite clear his plan was world domination.

He did? Would you please cite a source?

The only way the Nazis could have won the war was if they had assassinated Hitler and put in his place more competent leadership.

Not true. One of the main reasons the Germans lost the war is because the British were reading all their codes and the Germans didn't have a clue. They thought their Enigma machines were uncrackable. But the British had 30,000 men and women and Colossus working round the clock deciphering every code they could get their hands on and doing it quickly. (You can find them all in the PRO in Kew- very dull reading most of it.) It is very difficult to pull of military strategy when the enemy knows what you are planning. A leadership change would not have made any difference. Hitler's biggest flaw, when it came to fighting enemies, was that he was actually a bit of a softie and was reluctant to start out taking too heavy a hand. He preferred to give orders to the effect of "Drive them east" rather than "crush them all".

There is some very credible evidence that the Brits and Americans had broken the Japanese codes and knew about the planned attack but Chruchill and Roosevelt conspired to sacrifice the Hawaiin base to facilitate the entry of the US into the war. Up until then then the prevailing sentiment of the US ws to remain nuetral.

That is true. The British actually decoded Japanese communications faster than the US Navy did and refused to share what they found with the US, being a wartime situation. Roosevelt did know and he and Churchill were both eager for the US to enter the war. Given how little it seemed to weigh on their consciences the millions that they had and would continue to send to their deaths, I'm sure they weren't too broken up about letting Hawaii get attacked.

If the Germans had won it would truly be a white man's world.

Highly unlikely, but it would have been Germany for the Germans again.

[Profit]

Time to set the record straight (in limited quantities for now, though).



First of all, the UK declared war on Germany which they did because they had promised, after WW1, to protect Poland if she were attacked. The Germans only went into Poland because they wanted to take back their ancestral homelands that were stolen from them at the end of WW1 and which still had many ethnic Germans living there. The Germans were not at all interested in a war with anybody else, particularly not the UK.

Too bad Churchill was a warmonger. As for the rest of Europe, Germany wasn't interested in it.



I agree Churchill was no saint and yes the UK did declare war on Germany first but you're joking about the rest of this.....right?

[Luciferi]

I agree Churchill was no saint and yes the UK did declare war on Germany first but you're joking about the rest of this.....right?

Not at all. Although I'm aware that what high school history classes teach is completely different from the real version of history.

[Profit]

Not at all. Although I'm aware that what high school history classes teach is completely different from the real version of history.

In Mein Kampf Hitler lays out his plans for overturning the Treaty of Versailles in order to gather all German speaking people into a ‘Greater Germany’. Once this has been achieved however the German people will need to procure more territory in order to expand into.

“When the territories of the Reich embrace all the Germans and finds itself unable to assure them a livelihood, only then can the moral right arise, from the need of the people, to acquire foreign territory. The plough is then the sword; and the tears of war will produce the daily bread for the generations to come.”

Not only did the German people need space to expand into, lebensraum, but the German state “in order to become a World Power needs that territorial magnitude which gives it the necessary importance today and ensures the existence of its citizens.”

Where is this living space to be found? Try Eastern Europe. Hitler believed that the terms of the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk had secured this for Germany. Under the terms of the 1918 agreement Russia renounced all claims to the territories that today correspond roughly to Poland, Estonia, Belarus, Ukraine, Latvia, and Lithuania. The Treaty states “Germany and Austria-Hungary intend to determine the future fate of these territories in agreement with their population”. In effect the Treaty hands over control of Eastern Europe to Germany. Hitler was pretty clear about his aims. Gather German speaking people into a Greater Germany and expand into Eastern Europe.

What next?

"If anyone asks how you conceive the new Europe, we have to reply that we don't know," Goebbels told German newspapermen bluntly on 5 April [1940]. "Of course we have some ideas about it. But if we were to put them into words it would immediately create more enemies for us . . . Today we talk about Lebensraum. Anybody can interpret it as they wish. When the time comes we will know very well what we want."

What lebensraum meant was the eventual removal (extermination) of Eastern European populations and the colonization of their former lands with ethnic Germans.





Profit added to this post, 23 minutes and 13 seconds later...



In the spring 1941, Hess parachuted into the UK, having never flown a plane before, to deliver peace terms.


Hess was a Lieutenant in the Imperial Air Corps where he received aeronautical training and served in an operation squadron.

[KJacket]

You mean just the germans or the whole Axis side? I mean, at that time, if Japan didn't surrender even after getting one city destroyed and if the germans actually had collected enough tri-elemental forces or even people power in general, they mightve won.

"... If hitler had set his aim on crushing people rather than chasing them out" << something like that

Yeah, I agree. There's the saying " The first one who moves strong gets the upperhand" and maybe if they had just settled it in ONE world war, with better planning, thing would be different.

The topic on whether hitler is INTJ or F or whatever is pretty interesting too.

The most obvious thing is we wouldn't be using english if the axis side won WWII.

[Luciferi]

Profit- What you have to realise is that Mein Kampf is not an outline of what became actual policy. Hitler was quite intelligent and knew very well how to ride the waves of public opinion. He was extremely popular (maybe even more popular than Obama- he didn't have to ride around in a bulletproof limo) and he used those nationalist post-war sentiments to climb the political ladder. Once in power, however, the rhetoric softens and his enthusiasm for that kind of stuff wears off.

As far as Lebensraum goes... well, for one, much of what is now inhabited by ethnic Slavs (like Poles) was originally home to Germanic tribes. So there is a historical basis for perhaps feeling as though they had a right to that land. But that aside, notice you only mention eastern Europe. That is hardly all of Europe and definitely does not include the UK, on which Hitler never had any grand designs, nor does it include any of the west, north, or south of Europe.

As far as the excursions into the east, you do have to keep in mind that they were fighting a war against the Soviets on the eastern front. You cannot always be content simply to hold the line. You have to take offensive measures sometimes, too. They also had the problem that the partisans that had originally been sent east instead of being liquidated the first time around were reorganising and launching new offensives in tandem with the Soviets. I think if they had beaten Russia and retained that occupied land (which the residents may well have preferred!), then Germanics would have been allowed to settle there, but I hardly think they would have exterminated the Slavs. It's not like there isn't still plenty of countryside, even today.

So yes, I stand by what I said- Germany did not want war with any of the European powers (and certainly not with the US) and she didn't have any intention of exterminating eastern Europeans. The problem I often have in discussing any WW2 stuff with most people is that so many have been raised from birth to think of the Germans as pure evil and have been fed a lot of misinformation and cannot look at what they did or why they did it in an objective manner. Since I have been working in the archives, I have come to realise that probably 60-80% of everything that is taught in school about WW2 is either distorted or outright false. I really wonder about the people who write those textbooks...

[Hamburglar]

The most obvious thing is we wouldn't be using english if the axis side won WWII.

Do they not speak German in Germany post WWII?

[Luciferi]

Hess was a Lieutenant in the Imperial Air Corps where he received aeronautical training and served in an operation squadron.

Woah! You are quite right. That is not what I had meant to write. I was chatting with a friend last night while writing this and he was saying how he was signing up for pilot lessons. Um... I guess I don't remember what it was I had intended to say about Hess, though. That's what I get for late-night multitasking! Oh, well. I guess if it was important I will remember it later. Thanks for pointing out that error, though. I will correct it.

[Night Runner]

As a former Soviet, I feel compelled to respond to at least two of your points...

As far as the excursions into the east, you do have to keep in mind that they were fighting a war against the Soviets on the eastern front. You cannot always be content simply to hold the line.
There are two possibilities:
1. Viktor Suvorov's theory is correct - Stalin and Hitler were racing to see who could attack whom first, or
2. Hitler planned to start a war with the Soviets the whole time - which he did when he attacked the Brest fortress on June 22, 1941.
You can't possibly argue that the full-scale attack was just an accident. It had been planned well in advance.

I think if they had beaten Russia and retained that occupied land (which the residents may well have preferred!), then Germanics would have been allowed to settle there
(bolded for emphasis)
You have somewhat of an argument here: there were some areas of Russia where people would much rather live under the German rule. All of those areas were in the Eastern Europe - the Baltic countries (Lithuania, Latvia, et cetera) and the Ukraine, which actually got its own SS division. Those territories had been oppressed or mistreated by Russians in the past. As for the rest of the country (or Russia prime, so to speak) - the mutual antipathy was too great. Germans and Russians are different ethnicities that don't have much in common - the very scale of the partisan warfare on the occupied Russian territory should be proof enough...

[William Schacht]

I thought Germans could have won the war in Europe if Hitler died early, and let Hermann Goering to be the Fuhrer in 1939.

In fact if United States remains neutral as it did between 1939-1941, the Germans which should have invaded Russia and most of Europe (Goering seemed discouraging Hitler/other more extreme Nazi members, thus would have prevented simultaneous wars from both side of Europe.) would only invade Canada instead. By then United States should have considered alliance with Germans, given the heavy German-American population and supportive popular sentiments back then, thus prevented warfare in lower 48. Under such conditions, I surely doubt the Germans could force Americans to speak German within a decade, but as German influence increased globally, America could have evolved into a bilingual nation, with English and German as the official languages; or even have a possibility to remain as a English-speaking nation.

There wouldn't have been baby boom in late 1940s to 1950s, Americans might have adopted a more German modernist lifestyle than it was. Lower incidences of violent crimes in Northern US cities, with an education system modeled after the modernist model, which would be more favorable to xNTx individuals. Under such education system, the NT personality would have been more influential to the American society than it had in reality. Thus, meritocracy in certain East Asian nations would have been possible in United States.

The social status of Germans, Swiss and Japanese would have been better off for at least two decades; meanwhile Eastern Europeans, West Asians, Chinese, Koreans, African Americans would have been suppressed for at least two decades as well.

The scenario would be less certain for Asia, since it was Japanese that initiated the world war throughout Asia, not Germans. Back in 1930s, the social support for the war in Japan seemed more supportive than Germans, because Japan was claims itself to be a more homogeneous nation than Germany--- there are few minorities under discrimination in Japan, while Germans alienated Jews, Eastern Europeans and even Catholic Germans, which comprised of roughly 5-10% of its population when compared to 1-2% in Japan. Thus, Japan was more determined to initiate a global warfare, unless either Germans/Americans forbids their offence throughout Asia.

However, Germans may have decided to invade Asia after they conquered Russia, possibly co-operating with Japanese ; or turn the front to Africa/South America instead of invading Asia.

[ArtistTyrant]

The world would be a much better place if Germany had won WWII. Think of the advantages of a Nazi society: strong emphasis on science, eugenics, workers rights/automation, as well as a powerful centrally structured society that would be able to handle all sorts of issues much better than the world's current state. And also, since English is a Germanic language I believe that it would have remained in use.

[Hamburglar]

Interesting, linguistically speaking, that you would put eugenics inbetween science and workers rights.