INTJ the most idealistic (NF) of the rationals?

[Uytuun]

I've actually read this claim somewhere else, but I was wondering what you guys thought about it.

If you compare INTPcentral and this forum, it does seem that INTJs are more "pure", naive and perhaps a bit idealistic. INTPcentral gives me a different (sometimes upleasant) kind of vibe. Also, Ni seems to be pretty mysterious and mystical.

[Zilal]

I dunno, but you might be right. I often find INTJs to be more, well, earnest than INTPs... we often seem less cynical and more devoted to what we're doing. That could be considered idealism. Also, we may get "stuck" on theoretical ideas more, which can certainly be idealism. I have a very idealistic idea of how I want other people to behave, heh.

[OneBadMother]

Hmm, that might be right in some respects. I find my INTJ friend to be refreshingly naive. I consider myself to be more of an idealistic realist myself. I guess that INTPs are more "worldly" than INTJs, since we take information from our observations to form theories while INTJs form theories first, based on hunches. So we see a lot of the essence of what goes on outside, and can grow somewhat jaded because of it.

Not being a huge fan of INTP Central, I'm not sure if it should be taken as the standard by which INTP behavior should be recognized, but I guess that some of them could be... uh... less mature INTPs.

[JTG]

Or maybe you're more like us! :)

I'm actually very cynical and jaded. I think it has to do with my previous life experiences and that i've finally recognized the fact that most people don't care about one another, only about fulfilling their own needs. It was such a disappointing realization, but coming here has done wonders for my mood lately. It's so refreshing to know there are other people who really look at the big picture, instead of focusing on what affects them only.

[AgentofGaming]

This is where I come into conflict with myself.

I'm a bit naive and idealistic.
Yet later I end up attacking myself over being idealistic or perfectionist.

I come up with a lot of ideas and end up telling myself "that's not going to work", or sometimes if I do follow through with it I ask myself "what was I thinking?"

[aok]

I generally test more INTJ. But, my J/P levels are a bit ambiguous- which is the reason for the INTX. Aside from that I'm strongest in my N, which is found in INTJs, ENTPs, ENFPs, and INFJs. I do think there may be a possibility for naiivety in strong N types, particlularly possibly in combination w/ the I. As a general personal tendency I think of myself as generally naiive and idealistic until I'm in a bad or sad mood. When I am in the latter I find myself to be extremely cynical and fatalistic, in strong contradiction to the more common opposite flipside. I also tend to coincide common sense (which generally seems to be a more cautious, realistic, cynical perspective) w/ S and uncommon sense w/ N (which generally seems to be a more naiive, open, optimistic, and idealistic perspective). Of course, I could be way off base here in part or total.

[Uytuun]

Not being a huge fan of INTP Central, I'm not sure if it should be taken as the standard by which INTP behavior should be recognized, but I guess that some of them could be... uh... less mature INTPs.

I agree that it shouldn't be regarded as the standard, but I think it's still somewhat indicative of the differences between INTJ and INTP...just the general vibe. I know an INTP and he seems to be far more cynical, anti-establishment and disappointed in people and society than I am, even though the INTJ can hardly be called a conformist type and I'm in fact not a superstrong J.

Interesting observation about the inner world - "real" world dichotomy.

[wise]

I agree that it shouldn't be regarded as the standard, but I think it's still somewhat indicative of the differences between INTJ and INTP...just the general vibe. I know an INTP and he seems to be far more cynical, anti-establishment and disappointed in people and society than I am, even though the INTJ can hardly be called a conformist type and I'm in fact not a superstrong J.

Interesting observation about the inner world - "real" world dichotomy.

INTP Central is generally a bunch of idiocy, IMHO. I test INTJ and INTP. I much more identify with this forum. I think there is a greater percentage of sensible discussion. If I read a thread that disintegrates into nonsensical hijack mode, I'm through with it; the effort to filter out the real thread is not worth the waste of time. I've seen that a lot on INTP Central. I don't have time for it.

[fripping]

theoretically, INTJ's primary Ni and tertiary Fi combine to make them more subjective than other rationals. this is demonstrated in other people's posts here (this thread).

if this place grows to the size of intpc, you will see all kinds of tomfoolery from the rabble it will inevitably attract. for now, the membership here is pretty exclusive and managable, and silly people like me are few in number. i can only wish you success and growth with the tangential discussion it brings.

[Windmill]

We might be. Being more self-centered and living in the world of possibilities, we look to the future, and look to improve ourselves- and forget about the rest of the world out there thats not doing so well I suppose? I dunno.

[Antares]

I'm an idealistic-realist as well. I have a vision of what the world should be like, but I'm painfully aware that it's never going to be this way. Talking about idealism, I inwardly scoffed at my classmate who asked: "Why can't we build an elevator that reaches outside the atomosphere so we don't need the energy generated by rockets to avoid gravity?" I had quite a bit to say to that.

I'm cynical and critical and whenever I was criticized for being too pessimistic, I tell my mother: "I am just being realistic." When I condemned somethings of 'never going to improve' because I noticed a catastrophic cycle that is only too real, I got quite a mouthful for that.





Camelopardalis added to this post, 26 minutes and 51 seconds later...

INTP Central is generally a bunch of idiocy, IMHO. I test INTJ and INTP. I much more identify with this forum. I think there is a greater percentage of sensible discussion. If I read a thread that disintegrates into nonsensical hijack mode, I'm through with it; the effort to filter out the real thread is not worth the waste of time. I've seen that a lot on INTP Central. I don't have time for it.

I got to INTPc because they're more active, but it's understandable, of course. I enjoy my time here much more.

[Paul V]

I was called idealist today by my ENFJ mother, so...

[Lucid]

I'm pretty idealistic. That's why I'm so angry all the time. :)

[INTJoe]

Not sure...but what I am sure of is that myself and my close INTJ friend are way more idealistic (or a better word is optimistic) than our INTP friend. My INTJ friend is obscenely optimistic...even though his T is way stronger than mine. Me and the INTP often just laugh at some of the stuff he says.

IF INTJ's are the most idealist of the rationals, then who are the most Guardian, Rational, and Artisan?

I'd guess the most rational may be the INTP
the most artisan may be ENTP
and the most guardian ENTJ?

Or maybe INTJs are the most guardian, and ENTJ's the most idealistic, as they're more likely to talk and encourage people.

[deicruxified]

it does seem that INTJs are more "pure", naive and perhaps a bit idealistic. INTPcentral gives me a different (sometimes upleasant) kind of vibe. Also, Ni seems to be pretty mysterious and mystical.

i am an idealist...but not realist and my mind is always gone with the wind... a lot of people think i'm naive and "pure" and "virginal" (blech!!) as first impression... and i got a lot of nasty ideas which most people think are impossible but for me it is possible :-D my prof thinks we're both infp and even doubted when i scored intj... infp is way too far from what i am...

[BlackHawk]

We share Ni as our primary function with the INFJs, who strike me as very conceptual AND idealist. We have a lot in common, so it makes sense for there to be idealist veins in INTJs.

[meanlittlechimp]

I didn't really have a thought out rationale for listing the INTJs as idealist as much as I did for listing the others. The only one I really had was that the INTJs that I've personally known have a much more adamant, unchangeable and consistent moral system - similar to the NFs I know. Less driven by logic and more by something else. They seemed more caught up in tradition (at least in adopting their morality).

The above posts have definitely given me food for thought though.

[Uytuun]

I don't think this was where I picked it up, but thanks for the link. :)

[Vortex]

I'm idealistic in that I look to the future and see the stream of possibilities and how different and better I/we/w.e could make them (and have a complete sequence of logical steps to get there).

On the other hand, if I look to what things are and what things likley will become, I become nihilistically jaded. In order to not start on the Xenocide of mankind, I try to stay in the former, more happy tomorrow, rather than the youtube comments of today... If that makes sense.

[Meyer]

I think I have read somewhere that Ni is the closest function to the subconcious. Maybe this has something to do with it.

[Dream Weaver]

I tend to be idealistic in the fact that I tend to get very angry at the fact that people can't seem to see the potential I see in other people and myself, and when they do, they don't act on it. They don't nourish that potential and make it grow and that makes me so angry.:angry::angry:

[simoncpu]

INTJs are idealistic in a sense that they stick to a single Holy Idea even unto their deaths... ;D

[umop_3pisdn]

INTJs are idealistic in a sense that they stick to a single Holy Idea even unto their deaths... ;D

Something like that, yeah. In my case, I tend to form attachments to my theories and such... and categorizing/analyzing things tends to come somewhat naturally to me, so internally things tend to fall more easily into some form of classification or framework... which tends to simplify the world, somewhat, into a more "idealistic" form, I would say.

Ni tends to separate us from 'reality.' I find Ni to be oddly "spiritual" in it's focus, it tends to deal with the intangible essences of things. Right there, you already have things boiled down to a more simplified or ideal form.

Fi also wouldn't help, since the world of feelings/emotion would be so tied to one's inner world and belief system. Applying that externally often doesn't work, due to differences between individuals. Still, the only way I can really exercise my feeling function externally is by extrapolating my Fi onto others. In my case, at least, I think that's one way my idealism can be easily observed.

At least, I can vouch for the idealism of INTJ's by saying that, yes, I'm highly idealistic... to the point of occasionally disgusting myself with it. I also have a slightly higher feeling tendency than some other INTJ's I've met IRL, though, so that may also have something to do with it.

[simoncpu]

INTPs can be idealistic too, you know. We can be very firm to our values to the point that we may come across as close-minded and prejudiced.

Not until recently, I used to see people who drink and smoke as a bunch of losers. It was also not long ago that I accepted premarital sex as OK, although I would only do it in the context of a committed relationship, one at a time. :)

[ArchonAlarion]

I'm very idealistic, but my idealism is shaped and directed by logic.

I think INTP's would be the most idealistic, but they are too wishy washy to do anyhting about it.

[acyckowski]

This thread surprises me. How are we idealistic? We're about the most open-minded and pragmatic people around. If an idea doesn't work, chuck it and get a new one. If it does work, see if you can make it better.

Where we aren't flexible is in our visualization of the goal, whatever that may be.

I would argue that we are more visionary than idealistic....this may be a semantic argument (I don't think so, of course) but a visionary outlook implies working toward an end, whereas idealism talks more about the means.

[sm80403]

Yes, I believe that INTJs are pretty idealistic; I want things to be "right" (morally, professionally and intellectually) and I want people to walk the talk and mean what they say and not play games. . .which of course is a complete pipe dream. I'm not sure anyone really does this but INTJs!

And I agree with ArchonAlarion; INTPs should be the most idealistic, but they can't just get the decision-making done so that action can follow (I'm married to one). I'm a 'fish or cut bait' kind of person, and the INTPs seem to have a very difficult time with that. . . idealism means nothing without some sort of action behind it, IMHO.

[simoncpu]

INTPs dream of a Utopian society, a dream with no hunger, sadness, and pain. True idealism can never be realized because they are impractical. ;D

[sm80403]

INTPs dream of a Utopian society, a dream with no hunger, sadness, and pain. True idealism can never be realized because they are impractical. ;D
True idealism can be realized only in the minds of INTPs, I think, because they can't make final decisions and act on them. . . there's always more info to digest, more dreams to dream. . .it makes me nuts when they fritter away so much time by diddling around--no further ahead than they were before. Still in dreamland.

[Uytuun]

I think the INTJ tendency to believe in facts, fairness and justice (things that make sense) is also extremely "idealist". Injustice (mostly on a personal level) makes me cringe.

Also, I think that it's hard for us to intentionally hurt someone...like the petty gossiping, conniving, bullying kind. Also, I think that lying and stealing aren't areas the INTJ excels in. ;) Strong moral code etc...

[sm80403]

I agree about INTJs having a tendency to believe in justice (in the face of the fact that there really never is any, truly) and to be idealistic. I also think you're right about intentionally hurting someone--that takes time, emotional attachment to something/someone, and effort. . .just don't have the time or inclination to fiddle around that way. I think some people are hurt by INTJs because they don't understand our internal emotional lives and decision-making that goes on in our brains. It's easy for me to 'cut bait' on anything (and just about anyone) when it doesn't make sense anymore to go down that path. That's where we get the bad rap, I think. We've indeed thought the situation out before we take action (much more than people know), we just usually haven't gone through the correct emotional rituals that conventional society demands for us to be branded "those nice INTJs".

[Meyer]

I'd guess the most rational may be the INTP
the most artisan may be ENTP
and the most guardian ENTJ



Sounds about right to me

[Sod]

I've been thinking about this myself. I have a very strong code of morals, derived from my Christian faith. I hold to my religion and ethical code not because I 'feel' they're right, but because I know they're right. Both have survived careful scrutiny and examination. (I am often irritated when people have a code of conduct based on what 'seems' or 'feels' right to them.) So, in practice, dishonesty, theft, harming someone else for my own gain, sex outside of marriage, etc, are all things I strive to avoid. I expect other Christians to do the same. In this respect, I might be described as an idealist.

I have often pondered what I'd do without Christianity. In all honesty, my religion effects me so much that I have difficulty separating it from myself. If I was logical about it, I would be moral to the extent that I benefited from it, nothing more. E.g., I would not be promiscuous because of the danger of STDs and unwanted emotional attachments, I would not steal if there was a strong chance of getting punished. You could describe it as a 'me focused' attitude. I can easily see a dark side to myself, which can be a tad disturbing. Perhaps due to this, I do not judge harshly when non-Christians fail to abide by my ethical standards. (But, to my mind, there are no excuses for not having the standard in the first place. This is paradoxical, I admit.) Anyway, this hypothetical state could hardly be described as idealist.

The other major possibility is that I'd be in a state of flux - I'd feel somehow compelled to be a 'good person', but be without any satisfactory means of deciding what a 'good person' was (which seems like a form of torture). Here I would be a confused idealist.

But enough rambling about myself. I found an interesting article (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.) that might shed some light on the subject. Basically, the author proposes that a person tends to have different 'faces' to their personality. A 'face' is comprised of a judging function paired with a perceiving function. The pairs are determined by extroversion and introversion, and each person will have an extroverted face and an introverted face. So, given that the MBTI INTJ order of preferences is Ni, Te, Fi, and Se, their faces will be Ni/Fi and TeSe. The NiFi combination makes for a very idealistic side. If you're interested in the concept, read the article; my explanation is hardly eloquent. I'm not sure how much merit the theory has. It intrigued me nonetheless, and I'd be interested to hear some opinions on it. (That might do better in it's own thread if anyone's interested.)

[Evalind]

I find that I'm very idealistic until I have to rely on other people for things, or have to factor other people in to my solutions some how. There's just so much human fallibility! :P

[Jgib5328]

I'm pretty idealistic about my dreams and my future.

I generally don't have much enthusiasm for things that have little to do with me. I don't care about helping the poor, I don't care about changing the government, I don't want to save the extinct animals, I just want to reach my dreams.

Ni & Fi probably play into this.

[meanlittlechimp]

This thread surprises me. How are we idealistic?

I recall several references in the MBTI literature about INTJs; occasionally getting so into an idea, or belief system, that it detached them from reality in a way that is unique compared to other NTs. Something about "mystical" or "bizarre" belief systems. It's hard for me to describe exactly, but I vaguely recall it being stated in various ways.

I've heard other INTJs admit this to me on forums and in my personal life; doesn't necessarily make it true, obviously - but I'm leaning that way until I get more data.

[Meyer]

I can be quite naive. I think sometimes my intuition knows how things "are" if everyone is acting from a logical and honorable position. It took quite sometime for me to realize that this is not always the case.

[uberosity]

I've actually read this claim somewhere else, but I was wondering what you guys thought about it.

If you compare INTPcentral and this forum, it does seem that INTJs are more "pure", naive and perhaps a bit idealistic. INTPcentral gives me a different (sometimes upleasant) kind of vibe. Also, Ni seems to be pretty mysterious and mystical.

I totally agree! For me, the difference between the two was unexpected, but can actually make for much different approaches to situations and styles of thinking. I think that we have Ni as our dominant function and they have Ti as their dominant function can really show. Also, we do have Fi, while Fe barely registers with INTPs. I am the most idealistic of the rationals I know, and actually of most people I know.

[Bluestocking]

I fluctuate between testing as an INTJ or INTP, so I must have qualities of both. The INTJ me has sharper edges and is prone to thinking in absolutes: "I will NEVER compromise my art" and "All --- are -- and their existence cannot be tolerated within my orbit." I associate the perception function with my being forced to learn more flexibility and tolerance and the existence of shades of gray as I grew older. When I'm really under stress or tired, I revert to being very INTJ. I'm less idealistic, but probably also nicer now than I was when I was 21. I've also had to learn to look at all sides of a picture because I work as a newspaper reporter.

Another INTP/INTJ and I had a conversation regarding when to comfort an upset friend in a way I found interesting. I don't empathize exactly. I recognize that so and so is upset or is acting like a jerk, take a minute and analyze the situation and say "so and so might be upset because she was yelled at by the boss or has never been right since her mother killed herself, so maybe I should cut her some slack" and act accordingly. The other INTP attributed that sort of reaction to her "P" function which is the part of her that cares enough to try a little bit harder, even though she doesn't feel the other person's emotions or empathize. Developing my "P" function makes me try a little bit harder, while the "J" function if allowed to rule would make me say "So and so is a jerk and cannot be allowed within my orbit."

[acyckowski]

I recall several references in the MBTI literature about INTJs; occasionally getting so into an idea, or belief system, that it detached them from reality in a way that is unique compared to other NTs. Something about "mystical" or "bizarre" belief systems. It's hard for me to describe exactly, but I vaguely recall it being stated in various ways.

I guess in that sense, yeah, you could say we're idealists, but I think that's more along the lines of stubbornness than idealism.

From my observation, though, it seems that most of us settle on either a atheist/agnostic/pantheist system, or a traditional mainstream religion. I will say, though, that we seem less likely to reject the ideas of the mystics and bizarros outright.

I just don't see myself as all that idealistic. I do hold very high standards in matters of justice and fairness (as mentioned in several threads), but I'm realistic in the sense that I know those standards will rarely be met. It seems that we INTJs actually have a pretty good grasp on the difference between the way things should be and the way things are. It's a duality I'm comfortable with, anyhow.

[sm80403]

INTJs are idealistic in a sense that they stick to a single Holy Idea even unto their deaths... ;D

Yes, I agree that INTJs really stick to a decision they've made (generally after analyzing it to death) and are flawed in a way that INTPs are not: INTPs will shift their decisions and conclusions and will keep that option open (waiting for the next new piece of info to come in :idea:), while INTJs have already made the decision and have gone on to the next "thing" on the list of to-dos.

I admit that NOT making a decision and not moving on makes me very edgy and uncomfortable. . .in a way that if I were an INTP, would not. But the flip side is that INTPs seem to have a problem with never going the distance to get the job DONE. . .as both types are very analytical, and both with flaws. It all depends on the situation. . . if getting the job DONE is important or not.

[bmartinl]

INTJ's are idealistic in that anything is possible. An instructive comparison is with the INTP, who only seem to generate ideas that are consistent with their long-built network of introverted thinking. While we definitely impose a lot of structure on our surroundings, our idea generation is completely open, which makes us the most idealistic of the rationals, at least this is my interpretation.

For instance, INTP's reading this would laugh and think we have a simplistic understanding of the intricate rules of the MBTI system. They're probably right, but I remain confident in my ability to get at the truth by making intuitive leaps...and thus appear quite "idealistic" to the other rationals. This is all caused by our primary Ni being so adept at generating those intuitive leaps.

[simoncpu]

This is all caused by our primary Ni being so adept at generating those intuitive leaps.

One problem though... this assumes that all INTPs have undeveloped Ni and Te. ;D I think MBTI categorizes us based on the relative strength of our cognitive processes...





simoncpu added to this post, 2 minutes and 48 seconds later...

But the flip side is that INTPs seem to have a problem with never going the distance to get the job DONE. . .as both types are very analytical, and both with flaws. It all depends on the situation. . . if getting the job DONE is important or not.

Yepp, I agree. In good development (or <insert type of team here>) teams, P & J types should be mixed...