Is this really arrogant? [Family & Heroes]

[Bri]

I recently found myself in an odd conversation with my family (sister & father) . A bit of background, I don't know either of their types. Pretty sure that they are all NOT INTJs. My sister is naive (she's going on 12 here), constantly has to have all the attention on her, over-confident to the point of being very cocky, yet she is smart. My father always has to have people around him, very extroverted, impulsive, and seems to base most decisions on emotion than logic.

Earlier today, while in the car with my little sister & were having a conversation about idols. My father was driving, half-paying attention to this.

[I'm paraphrasing here]

Sister: Who's your hero?

Me: I don't idolize anyone. We all have flaws. I don't believe in the concept of heroes.

Sister: But everyone has to have a hero...[continues mini rant on how someone has to have a hero to thrive in this world, I'm sure other INTJs have heard a similar talk before...]. Bri, who do you look up to?

Me: (sighing as I realize her unneccessary concern and rephrazing of just about the same question) Only to people who are taller than me.

Sister: No really....

Me: (quite honestly) No one.

[Then my father and his emotional-aggressive thinking self jumps in...chaos begins]

Father: (now slightly angry) Well that's a rude statement!

Me: I'm just speaking honestly. Her question was just a rephrasing of her first question. I don't believe in heroes, idols---

Father: (angry, cutting me off) Don't act like you're better than anyone else!

Me: It's just what I think. Nothing persona---

Father: (visibly angry, cuts me off) So you mean to say that you don't look up to your grandparents?!!!

[I sit there, completely off-guard. Thinking about how I could possibly look up to my grandparents. As a constant future/career-oriented person, I can't fathom idolizing my grandparents (who I love dearly) who are both working low-end jobs (from the time they were kids until probably the day they die), never left their childhood neighboorhood to explore, argue all the time, they have contrasting philosophies and overall personality type compared to me, etc.). Their lifestyle just doesn't appeal to me. I want more to life than they did. Nevertheless, this conversation is making me sick. My father said the last statement in such a tone, to make it look like that I must not love my family, if I don't look up to them in someway. And as much as a Thinker I am (my second highest trait), it stung a little.]

Me: (still caught off-guard by his tone & statement...trying to put it in a way that his emotional mind may understand a little...] I don't......No..I don't---

Father: (obviously hearing "I don't know..." instead of the rest of it...to prove his point. Then saying, with a slightly more calmer attitude now that he has 'won') I guess you should retract that statement!

[I just decide to end this as we had arrived back home, and I was feeling uncomfortable at the thought of continuing this conversation.]

--------
Seriously, I dread having conversations like this. It's as if, everytime I actually want to speak my mind, actually tell how I feel (kinda un-INTJ, right)...there's always someone to push me back down right where I started.

Okay, I realize this is getting too long. What do you guys think? I'd love to hear an INTJ (or other) perspective on this matter.

[DeadSpace]

Not arrogant, honest. But you weren't conforming to the norm so wham. Gotten caught up in conversations like that...throw out a fictional hero. Everyones happy, Or ask sister/pops theirs, and direct the conversation into why those are their heroes. Showing even feigned interest in others values can leave one completely off the hook for further examination/questions. People mostly love talking about themselves and their values. Keeping the questions going, conversation directed away from yourself...
A few paths, has worked for me, and can learn quite abit too in the process.

[Antares]

I had a similar conversation with my mother, a classic ISFJ (not judging them whatsoever).

Mother: Who do you look up to? *eyes me carefully*
Me: *shrug* No one.
Mother: Why not? Aren't there many people in your life that are worthy of your appreciation?
Me: Yes. I appreciate and respect them, but they're not my heroes, nor do I look up to them. I don't idolize anyone because they have flaws.
Mother: *frowns visibly* That's illogical and irrational.
Me: *finally paying attention* And may I ask why that is?
Mother: Because no one is perfect!
Me: I realize that.
Mother: So get off your high horse.
Me: *mouth slightly agape in surprise and frustration* I'm afraid I can't do that. I'm not on any horse.
Mother: I can never understand why you place yourself so high. *sighs*
Me: *starting to get pissed off* Excuse me, but are you trying to say something? Because if you are, spit it out already!

(It's not that I'm hypersensitive, but my mother usually beats around the bush instead of just saying what's on her mind, and she usually starts with light subjects)

My mother and I have famous tempers, while my father is very mild. I think I got it from her. It's one of the few things we have in common. I think everyone has different opinions of how people should be like.

Seriously, I dread having conversations like this. It's as if, everytime I actually want to speak my mind, actually tell how I feel (kinda un-INTJ, right)...there's always someone to push me back down right where I started.

Okay, I realize this is getting too long. What do you guys think? I'd love to hear an INTJ (or other) perspective on this matter.

Good that your family can drop certain subjects. My mother, after a debate which she had clearly 'won' because she asserted her points with force (and usually with raised voices and sometimes threats of punishments and condemning me of being 'crazy'), would hunt me down a few days later and present me with more reasons that she had not thought about during our debate why I was wrong, which makes me... quite frustrated. She often would put words into my mouth and never let me present my views completely before interrupting me mid-sentence to rebutt my point, something that I don't do. At least wait till I'm finished! :irked:

[rwyatt365]

There was nothing arrogant in that exchange whatsoever. You were merely stating your own personal view - that you don't have a hero. It was others (specifically, your father) that implied things in your comments that were not what you were saying, or intending.

I would, presonally, feel no guilt whatsoever regarding that exchange.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I recently found myself in an odd conversation with my family (sister & father) . A bit of background, I don't know either of their types. Pretty sure that they are all NOT INTJs. My sister is naive (she's going on 12 here), constantly has to have all the attention on her, over-confident to the point of being very cocky, yet she is smart. My father always has to have people around him, very extroverted, impulsive, and seems to base most decisions on emotion than logic.

Earlier today, while in the car with my little sister & were having a conversation about idols. My father was driving, half-paying attention to this.

[I'm paraphrasing here]

Sister: Who's your hero?

Me: I don't idolize anyone. We all have flaws. I don't believe in the concept of heroes.

Sister: But everyone has to have a hero...[continues mini rant on how someone has to have a hero to thrive in this world, I'm sure other INTJs have heard a similar talk before...]. Bri, who do you look up to?

Me: (sighing as I realize her unneccessary concern and rephrazing of just about the same question) Only to people who are taller than me.

Sister: No really....

Me: (quite honestly) No one.

[Then my father and his emotional-aggressive thinking self jumps in...chaos begins]

Father: (now slightly angry) Well that's a rude statement!

Me: I'm just speaking honestly. Her question was just a rephrasing of her first question. I don't believe in heroes, idols---

Father: (angry, cutting me off) Don't act like you're better than anyone else!

Me: It's just what I think. Nothing persona---

Father: (visibly angry, cuts me off) So you mean to say that you don't look up to your grandparents?!!!

[I sit there, completely off-guard. Thinking about how I could possibly look up to my grandparents. As a constant future/career-oriented person, I can't fathom idolizing my grandparents (who I love dearly) who are both working low-end jobs (from the time they were kids until probably the day they die), never left their childhood neighboorhood to explore, argue all the time, they have contrasting philosophies and overall personality type compared to me, etc.). Their lifestyle just doesn't appeal to me. I want more to life than they did. Nevertheless, this conversation is making me sick. My father said the last statement in such a tone, to make it look like that I must not love my family, if I don't look up to them in someway. And as much as a Thinker I am (my second highest trait), it stung a little.]

Me: (still caught off-guard by his tone & statement...trying to put it in a way that his emotional mind may understand a little...] I don't......No..I don't---

Father: (obviously hearing "I don't know..." instead of the rest of it...to prove his point. Then saying, with a slightly more calmer attitude now that he has 'won') I guess you should retract that statement!

[I just decide to end this as we had arrived back home, and I was feeling uncomfortable at the thought of continuing this conversation.]

--------
Seriously, I dread having conversations like this. It's as if, everytime I actually want to speak my mind, actually tell how I feel (kinda un-INTJ, right)...there's always someone to push me back down right where I started.

Okay, I realize this is getting too long. What do you guys think? I'd love to hear an INTJ (or other) perspective on this matter.
I am a mother of two daughters (ages 22 and 15). Being an INTJ myself, I have always encouraged this sort of conversation with them. I like to encourage them to think for themselves and to have well-formed and well thought out opinions.

If one of my daughters had replied to the question of heroes/role models in the same manner as you did, I must admit that I would feel very proud of her. That is not to say that I would not feel proud regardless of the answer since we all must be accepted for who we are. However, in my mind, a person who does not have a hero is a person who has come to realize that the traits and virtues that we aspire to are never found in one person, but rather we can find some of what we look for in almost everyone.

My mother used to tell us that you should look for what you want to learn in someone and try to figure out how you can nurture this trait in yourself and as for the stuff about them you don't like..........toss it away.

[Zilal]

Heh. Some people are damn sensitive to the idea of other people thinking they're superior. They see it everywhere. I think this is actually more common with particular low-income or poorly educated enclaves... it's a chip on the shoulder.

[ElstonGunn]

Where is the part where you said, "I don't have a hero because I am better than everybody. Everybody is inferior to me. I kick ass, everyone else sucks and they are unworthy to even think of me in their feeble little minds"? I must have missed that part, because all I think you said is that you didn't have a hero and weren't interested in getting one, since everybody has their own flaws. And anyways, doesn't 'everybody' include you? So how can somebody call you arrogant right after you implicitly said that you also have flaws?

The other possibility is that we're all misunderstanding what people mean when they use words like 'hero.'

[Uytuun]

No, it's not arrogant. And yes, I can relate.


Heh. Some people are damn sensitive to the idea of other people thinking they're superior. They see it everywhere.

Too true. Inferiority complexes are so tiring.

[OmegaPsi]

Lol...That is very irritating Bri. I do not think that was arrogant and find what Elstonjohn says absolutely perfect for that situation. Of course, I've been wrong SOMEHOW somebody doesent seem to understand perfect logic and continue to argue with me on the same point I just disproved..

[ssfanatic]

Not arrogant to me, just the truth. Isnt it funny how people want you to be honest, yet when you tell the truth, they say your being rude or arrogant? Ironic, but yet we live in a hypocritical world,"You cant do it but i can!"
I do/say things like that all the time. My dad, being an ISTJ, understands and sometimes even agrees, but my mom, being an ESFJ, yells at me. Im sorry that they have to have a kid like me, but im just acting as myself, and i will never conform.
You did the right thing, but im pretty Machiavellian so ill just tell them what they want to hear and live like i want to, therefore proving my point on the hypocritical world.





ssfanatic added to this post, 1 minutes and 42 seconds later...

No, it's not arrogant. And yes, I can relate.



Too true. Inferiority complexes are so tiring.
"The person who thinks he knows everything is excessively annoying to those of us who do"
-Unknown
Isnt that great, my INTJ friend showed me that.

[JTG]

Me: Yes. I appreciate and respect them, but they're not my heroes, nor do I look up to them. I don't idolize anyone because they have flaws.
Mother: *frowns visibly* That's illogical and irrational.
Me: *finally paying attention* And may I ask why that is?
Mother: Because no one is perfect!
Me: I realize that.
Mother: So get off your high horse.
Me: *mouth slightly agape in surprise and frustration* I'm afraid I can't do that. I'm not on any horse.
Mother: I can never understand why you place yourself so high. *sighs*

Good that your family can drop certain subjects. My mother, after a debate which she had clearly 'won' because she asserted her points with force (and usually with raised voices and sometimes threats of punishments and condemning me of being 'crazy'), would hunt me down a few days later and present me with more reasons that she had not thought about during our debate why I was wrong, which makes me... quite frustrated. She often would put words into my mouth and never let me present my views completely before interrupting me mid-sentence to rebutt my point, something that I don't do. At least wait till I'm finished! :irked:

LMAO! I condensed it a bit for space, but change the subject and that's pretty much every argument i have with anybody ._.

The last part (cutting me off, not giving me a chance to speak, putting words in my mouth) reminds me of somebody specific. I'll even try to parallel my logic with times they've made a similar decision in the past, sadly to no avail. I'm still "wrong" just because i disagree, even though they were "right" for feeling the exact same way i did when the roles were reversed :(

[Firelie]

This is exactly the kind of thing that made me avoid talking about politics or religion while I lived with my parents.

[catd]

Of course that wasn't arrogant. Ridiculous. At least other people have to put up with the same king of crap I do.

You just aren't going to be able to have rational conversations with most people - fact of life as an INTJ.

[Motor Jax]

none arrogant whatsoever

i would have just asked 'dad', "oh, so you don't love for who i am?"

then huddle up and talk to no one...


or just say, "oh, ok. now you hate me. that's fine. i'm ok with that."



of course, i'm just joking. but every time one of these type of discussions always start, i usually just go, "uhhh..." followed by silence


1: "so, who is your hero?"
me: "huh..."

1. "so you don't have one?"
me: "heh..."

1. "why do i try to talk to you?"
me: "good question"

1. "so, now you're not going to say anything?"
me: "yeah, why are you talking to me?"

me: "what's with all the questions?"



and then i started breaking down their personality types and psychoanalyzing them...

[sriv]

Tell your parents to allow you to speak your mind. Tell them that you are being completely honest, they will respect that, and tell them not to interject. Then tell him that you do not idolize your grandparents and give all the reasons and lessen the blow with some compliments at the end such as "but I respect them for who they are and because they are elders with more experience in life."

People are not something to idolize, actions are something to idolize. Too many people make the mistake of idolizing the person. Example: Jesus spread his legacy through his actions, posthumously they proclaimed he was God and everyone went back to sinning because they idolized him, but not his actions. They just expected that HE will forgive them for all their sins.

[ElstonGunn]

Seeing someone as a hero seems dishonest to me. As it has been said, everyone has their flaws, and to make them into heroes seems to imply that we'd like to be just like them, which in turn would mean that we'd like to adopt their flaws as well as their strengths.

That's a very different thing than admiring certain specific traits about someone. It makes a lot of sense to me to say, "I admire Uncle Bob's tenacity and convictions. However, sometimes he is tenacious even though he's wrong. So there is definitely something about him that I'd like to model myself after, but I'd have to use it as inspiration, rather than an exact template."

Or to use an even simpler example, "I admire Uncle Bob's idealism, but he's also a booze hound and womanizer. So there are some things that I admire about him, but I definitely don't want to be exactly like him."

[ShaiGar]

When someone asks me a question to which i know they won't like the answer i just give them an answer about 40 times worse.

"Who is your hero?"
"Machiavelli" - they wouldn't like that. so my answer is "Hitler""

[Motor Jax]

great examples, ElstonG

picking up on different traits is different that idolizing someone, since idolizing someone would be that they have no fallibilities... but humans are not really that perfect... we have our flaws...

[ElstonGunn]

I guess you could admire someone for how they deal with their mistakes. Or you could at least learn from their mistakes, even if they don't, themselves. But viewing someone as a hero seems like it would be the same as ignoring their mistakes, or at the very least, severely downplaying them.

It seems better to me to just cherry-pick the good parts of people and try to build some kind of personal or moral frankenstein.

[ShaiGar]

I don't see it the same as you guys. I have Heroes such as Alexander, Napoleon, Genghis... I know their flaws and I refuse to emulate them, but they're still heroic to me.

[INTJoe]

I don't see a problem with your answer. Who the hell said humans need a hero to live??? Both my parents are INs, so I guess I'm glad I never had such a stupid conversation. I feel sorry for you in this instance.

When prodded about your grandparents, you could have at least tried to be diplomatic and said "I don't have heroes and I don't idolize anybody, but I do respect all of my ancestors, including your precious parents."

lol. OK, so the "precious" part is not to be thrown in there, but I think you get the point. Your dad just wants to hear that you love/respect/whatever his folks and maybe him.

I mean, we should all respect our ancestors, for if not for them blasting semen into eachother, we wouldn't be here.

I'm not sure where the line is drawn, but I'm pretty sure you can respect people without idolizing them.

[TheLastMohican]

Sister: Who's your hero?

Me: I don't idolize anyone. We all have flaws. I don't believe in the concept of heroes.

Sister: But everyone has to have a hero...[continues mini rant on how someone has to have a hero to thrive in this world, I'm sure other INTJs have heard a similar talk before...]. Bri, who do you look up to?

Me: (sighing as I realize her unneccessary concern and rephrazing of just about the same question) Only to people who are taller than me.

Sister: No really....

Me: (quite honestly) No one.

[Then my father and his emotional-aggressive thinking self jumps in...chaos begins]

Father: (now slightly angry) Well that's a rude statement!

Me: I'm just speaking honestly. Her question was just a rephrasing of her first question. I don't believe in heroes, idols---

Father: (angry, cutting me off) Don't act like you're better than anyone else!

Me: It's just what I think. Nothing persona---

Father: (visibly angry, cuts me off) So you mean to say that you don't look up to your grandparents?!!!


Mother: Who do you look up to? *eyes me carefully*
Me: *shrug* No one.
Mother: Why not? Aren't there many people in your life that are worthy of your appreciation?
Me: Yes. I appreciate and respect them, but they're not my heroes, nor do I look up to them. I don't idolize anyone because they have flaws.
Mother: *frowns visibly* That's illogical and irrational.
Me: *finally paying attention* And may I ask why that is?
Mother: Because no one is perfect!
Me: I realize that.
Mother: So get off your high horse.
Me: *mouth slightly agape in surprise and frustration* I'm afraid I can't do that. I'm not [I]on any horse.
Mother: I can never understand why you place yourself so high. *sighs*
Me: *starting to get pissed off* Excuse me, but are you trying to say something? Because if you are, spit it out already!


The pattern in both of these conversations is that a person equates not having a hero with thinking that you are your own hero. The statements in bold are the turning points, when the person comes to a conclusion that directly contradicts what the one without the hero earlier stated.

[mkay]

Bri, I didn't see any arrogance in what you said. Your father was behaving irrationally, emotionally.

My mother is similar. From observing her, I learned young not to try to rationalize with someone who's being emotional. (Even NT types can be emotional at times.) Being rational in such situations often inflames the person who's being irrational. So it's handy to "read" such situations and decide: Do you want to continue the conversation in a "language" he understands? (In this case, your father was being emotional and looking for reassurance; he wasn't looking for rationality, which is what you were offering.)

So you didn't say anything "wrong." But what you said didn't fit the situation. I'm not suggesting you say things you don't mean to appease anyone. ... For me, it's a matter of looking at the conversation clinically and thinking, hey, where is this conversation going and what is my best tool in that conversation and do I even want to use that tool? If not, I politely end the conversation, change topics or whatever feels right at the given moment.

I suggest you try to experiment with / learn from / observe such conversations when you are young, because knowing how to deal with such people can serve you a lot throughout life -- just dealing with people in general, in school, in work and such.

I mentioned the book "Working With Emotional Intelligence" on another thread. There are many such sources of information if you are interested. Basically, emotional intelligence affects success in life, even for those in hard sciences and technology. So it's better to learn young than not. INTJs are amazing people, but it sucks to be amazing and not have people recognize it. Not that you need social recognition, but if you live in a society that functions mostly on emotional intelligence, it makes sense to learn the "language," because otherwise it's like living in a foreign country and not being able to communicate. In the end, it can really limit your ability to function successfully.

Personally, I have no heroes. I admire skills, characteristics in many people, but I don't idolize anyone.

[lampmeister]

Just tell them Friedrich Nietzsche. Your integrity intact, their curiosity sated. Win win.

[Noehelia]

The problem with explaining an incident is that someone can not set accurately the mood,the "sense" of how things were told. I am trying to figure out what made your father fire up like this. The statement of "I do not believe in heroes" is neutral. I think the problem started when you said "We all have flaws", people can perceive it as an accusation, however the most important influence in their reaction would be your tone of voice. If you said all these in a contemptuous way I can understand why people could see it as arrogance.

[onlyparallel]

I tell people that I don't have heros, and they react in the exact same way. I think that what happens is, people see INTJ's lack of heros as proof that we truly believe we are the best people in the world and can strive for nothing greater than what we are. We do come off as arrogant a lot of the time. So then we see heros as pointless or perhaps even lesser than ourselves. This is of corse a false belief on their part, but if you don't clear it up people will continue on thinking that way.

[enfpchick]

lmfao, ONLY INTJs can take something so simple and turn it into WW3. How could anyone not like you guys?

Btw I'll let you in on a little secret, this ENFP doesn't have a hero either. ;)

[Metamorphosis]

Idolizing a person doesn't make much sense, but looking up to some of that person's traits holds merit, I think.

[Serket]

I dont have a personal hero that I try to emulate.
I admire different characteristics in a variety of people.
I am my own person, and yes, I think I am better than most people, including conventional heros ;)

[Mafiaangel180]

Your dad probably ASSUMES that just because you don't have a hero/idol, that you don't respect or appreciate anyone. Which no doubt is not true. Your dad sounds like my dad by the way he takes things personally and gets fired up. Mine's an estp. Ugh.

[ShaiGar]

lmfao, ONLY INTJs can take something so simple and turn it into WW3. How could anyone not like you guys?

Btw I'll let you in on a little secret, this ENFP doesn't have a hero either. ;)
Not much of a secret if you go around telling everyone.

[sriv]

My hero is my self. Who else can I trust?