NT view of social obligations

[trap]

David Keirsey in PUM II notes that SJs are like NTs in that they "share a strong sense of loyalty to close friends and family, and SJs make sure their NT mates remember to take part in the social functions and family traditions they might otherwise forget. Rationals need to be reminded to relate to people, and Guardians love to help their mates remember their social obligations."

Do you agree with this? As an NFP in the social realm, I struggle sometimes to get our NT friends to socialize with us. My approach is to make them feel comfortable & do N friendly activities, film nights, dinner parties, fun people & intellectual conversations. But I find that with a few of our INT friends, I need to spell everything out, almost like they're worried about making a social mistake, I need to tell them what to bring exactly, what to expect, etc. like an SJ would do? I'm not a nag, I just expect them to come because it's a unique activity, but I'm laid-back about logistics. Are INTs more comfortable with an SJ approach to social activities that are generally more traditional, & where they might take a more pushy approach to get them there? It confuses me, it seems like they would prefer the NF way that would be more open-ended & different from the usual.

[anul]

I don't really care for social functions so I do tend to forget. It's just not very important it's all so tedious and boring. I don't have an SJ mate, and I would rather not have one. It would come in handy to remind me of my social obligations. But with enough effort a programmed robot could do the same. I do prefer to know what's expected of me, because I'm clueless. So I ask questions to know what's expected of me, because I will not look foolish due to lack of planning.

[Brutananadilewski]

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I'm highly resistant to any pushiness whatsoever, to the point where I'll go out of my way to make the pushy enforcer miserable for having the gall to tell me what to do. Your method of forsaking the details and offering open-ended invites would make me feel the most welcome, however, when it comes to some, or many, INTs, they really have to want, in order to participate. If I don't feel like going, I won't, no matter what someone tries to do. I suppose the key with some INTs is not as much how you approach it (although this is still important) but moreso it's the nature of the social activity itself which would draw the INT there. You've gotta find something that the person is interested in; it sounds stupid, tailoring an activity to suit an INT, but often that's the only way to get some of us to consider joining a social gathering. If I'm not getting something out of it, there's no point in me being there.

What an ass-backwards social creature I can be...and it's delightful!

[Antares]

At any given time, I don't care for it, actually. I don't mind gatherings and being with people, really, and I will readily accept my friends' invitations.

[prometheus]

I've aways had a problem with the phrase "social obligations". Nothing I'm forced to do will be social for either party.

[thecraig]

I don't mind going over to a freinds house, but that's diffrent from "social gatherings". The annual Squadron Christmas Party, for instance, is not high on my list of activities to attend. Too much small talk and too many people, most of whom I don't know and/or don't want to waste my time talking to. The only type of "party" for that matter, that I would get excited about is one centered around an activity. I have even hosted these, but they are usually relitively low key events and center around things I am interested in doing with other people. Geeky things usually, like X-box, LAN parties or even Poker tournements.

But social gatherings that are centered around socializing for the fun of it.... not my thing. My wife can occasionally drag me out to one, but when she does, I am going for her.

[ElstonGunn]

But I find that with a few of our INT friends, I need to spell everything out, almost like they're worried about making a social mistake, I need to tell them what to bring exactly, what to expect, etc. like an SJ would do? I'm not a nag, I just expect them to come because it's a unique activity, but I'm laid-back about logistics. Are INTs more comfortable with an SJ approach to social activities that are generally more traditional, & where they might take a more pushy approach to get them there?

I'd rather have everything spelled out, but that's mostly because nine out of ten times, I'd rather not go to the activity. A lot of extraverts seem completely unable to understand that, for introverts (especially arrogant jerks like INTJs ;) ), there is absolutely, positively, and without the slightest shadow of a doubt nothing inherently good about social gatherings. That's not to say that they're always automatically bad, although a very strongly expressed introvert like myself would probably lean that way.

So I tend to appreciate it if you just make it easy for me. Give me the crib notes, tell me what I'm supposed to do while I'm there, and then let me get the hell out as soon as possible. It's not that I'm worried about making a social faux pas. It's just that I'd rather not be there to begin with.

On a similar note, the less pressure you can put on me, the better. But if you "expect them to come" to parties and such, somebody like me probably would see you as a huge nag. I'm just saying that for the record.

[OneBadMother]

Your approach sounds fine, trap, but just understand that they won't always want to hang out. I think you might be mistaking their motivation. They aren't afraid of making a social mistake so much as they don't really care about social mistakes, especially among friends. The idea of "social obligations" is repellent, and if you make them out to be as such they'll be even less willing to spend time with you. I myself find the SJ approach irking. At any rate, a telling clue might be the fact that your NT friends are... well, friends with you. This suggests that they like hanging out with you when they do hang out with you. So don't nag if it's against your style. It'll make both you and them pretty miserable, and sabotage your attempts to have quality time with them.

[robin.]

If I am with a small group of people I like, I can be very outgoing (provided I've had enough time to recharge beforehand). But, since I am very comfortable with being by myself, sometimes it takes some prodding to get me to go out. Once I'm out, though, I usually enjoy myself if it's in the aforementioned situation. My favorite socialization times start out as events centered around something we all like. For example, I always have a lot of fun at my debate team's practices because there's enough structure to our meetings to give me reasons to talk, and then it just easily evolves into hanging out towards the end.

Big parties with people I don't know, on the other hand, can be annoying or panic-inducing, depending on the number of people and who they are. I am terrible at small talk because I don't see the point, so I'm always afraid to talk to people that I don't know because I think I won't really have anything to say. The way I've always been is that if I don't have any specific reason to talk to someone (I need to ask them something, I haven't seen them in a while and want to catch up, they need me, etc) then I just don't talk. It's not a matter of disliking that person, or even the idea of talking, it's just that I don't see the point of (and therefore I am not good at) just talking to people for the heck of it. I am trying to get better about that, though, because I do recognize that socializing can be enjoyable, and the desire to be doing something enjoyable should be a reason for me to talk to people. I just have to tell myself that enough, and I'm sure it will happen haha...

[Pinkie]

I've aways had a problem with the phrase "social obligations". Nothing I'm forced to do will be social for either party.


Quoted for Truth. Generally, when I'm forced into socialising I become a sort of Dementor, infecting the place with sarcasm and stripping it of any happiness whatsoever. I don't mean to, but that's what seems to happen anyway.

[trap]

I've aways had a problem with the phrase "social obligations". Nothing I'm forced to do will be social for either party.

I don't like the term obligations either, & I'm an extrovert! I just used the term because it was used in the interaction example of Guardians & Rationals in my quote.

I ask the question because I would assume our social gatherings would be more appealing to an INT due to the shared interests & laid-back nature of the gathering, which are not really large amounts of people, there are IN types there! But the particular friends I'm thinking of have quite a few SJs in their friends & family, & seem to be more dependable in those friendships, helping out, getting together, etc. I know it's not a question of our friendship as these friends have told us they consider us close friends, but I seem to have to pressure somehow to get them to a gathering, & pressuring is not my modus operandi.

My only social "rules" would be come casually hang out for good food & good conversation--accepting about 1/2 of the time to come!

Could this be due to growing up in a house of SJs? To expect social invitations to be pushy like that?

[prometheus]

One group I belong to is almost all INTJ libertarian/anarchists. I host meetups twice a year for these friends. Others before me have tried and failed with their schedules and activities etc.

Here is how I sort of "herd the cats". Posted in August: Winter meetup planned for Jan 30 - Fed 11, mostly around Feb 1 -2. Activities to be discussed at the event, last years activities included snowmobiling, Drinking, sledding, BS, drinking, scrabble, BSing, Balderdash, drinking, downhill skiing, drinking, Making fires in 2' of snow, drinking. Any NOOBs wanting to attend PM for directions to initial meeting point. Any old timers needing lodging etc. PM to discuss.. I have done this for 4 years and every year we get more people coming and have more fun.

[PortInStorm]

Concur:
- tell me exactly what I'm supposed to do so I don't waste valuable mental space worrying about it.
- LOVE gatherings with a work-type purpose so if I can't think of what to do with myself or what to say, or my social timing was bad, I can revert to my most comfortable, professional side. I hate when people say "Hey, let's leave work at work". But my life is mostly my work! One of my previous relationships revolved almost exclusively around work- we'd co-ordinate the weekends we had to work and voila! Work and pleasure- best of both worlds.

[rwyatt365]

Speaking from personal experience (my wife is ISFJ) I find the SJ rendition of "helping me" to be highly intrusive, extremely disrespectful, and completely abhorrent. To be poked and prodded, reminded of my "duties" and nagged to death about my "responsibilities" makes me cringe. She (like many) think that I have forgotten the things that I'm "supposed to do". I haven't forgotten about them, I simply find them to be irrelevant and superfluous, and I don't appreciate being hounded into attending social gatherings.

NTs are loyal to friends and family – almost to a fault. INTJ's are intensely loyal, but don’t feel a necessity to embellish that loyalty with constant gatherings. If we have formed a bond, that bond is incorruptible and will stand the test of time – even without constant attention.

[Santana28]

me and "social gatherings" do not mix. Holidays are the worst... i have to sit around with my husband's entire family playing pop-culture quiz games all night long... i HATE pop culture trivia... its so useless... i really cant stand it. i dont mind one on one board games at all - but i cant stand group "social" games which demand you speak, think, and act out in front of other people about subjects you loathe to think about.

of course, i still win ;) but just to get it over with sooner than later!

[PortInStorm]

"NTs are loyal to friends and family – almost to a fault. INTJ's are intensely loyal, but don’t feel a necessity to embellish that loyalty with constant gatherings. If we have formed a bond, that bond is incorruptible and will stand the test of time – even without constant attention. "- RWyatt365

Yep, beautifully put.

[Uytuun]

I abhor SJ pushiness and traditionalist views. Anything is better than that. Though if you say open-ended, that might be a little scary because we don't always know what to expect and we like to know what will be going on. INTJs are extremely loyal, but certainly not in the SJ kind of way.

for introverts (especially arrogant jerks like INTJs ), there is absolutely, positively, and without the slightest shadow of a doubt nothing inherently good about social gatherings

I disagree. This probably depends on the extent of the introvertedness. I find that certain social gatherings can stimulate me in some ways, energise me even when I've spent too much time on my own.

[ElstonGunn]

I disagree. This probably depends on the extent of the introvertedness. I find that certain social gatherings can stimulate me in some ways, energise me even when I've spent too much time on my own.

Okay, maybe once in a very long while, social activities are alright. ;)

[INTJoe]

This is definitely the case with my SJ girlfriend. Her extended family are loaded with Extraverted Sensor-Feelers who seem to get together (on average) like twice a month at her Aunts house to "celebrate" everything damn thing under the sun. (Kids birthdays, Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, New Years, Labor Day, Memorial Day, 4th of July, etc.)

It drives me absolutely nuts and sometimes we get in arguments that are like this:

Her: (On Friday when I get home from work) "You know we're going to Caye's house tomorrow for _____'s _______ party."
Me: "What....?"
Her: "I told you this two weeks ago..."
Me: "Why the hell do we have to go celebrate that? Can't we for once just skip it?"
Her: (crazy look) "Yeah....we'll just skip it...." (Like that is ZOMG INSANE!!! BLASPHEMY!)
Me: "Well they expect...literally expect...us and everyone else to get together way too often. It's unreasonable."
Her: "Well I'm going."
Me: "Fine. Whatever. Let's go. It'll be awesome. Again...just like last time."

At this point I really don't think she cares, she's just glad I'm going. It's like pulling teeth to get her to turn her back on family tradition. She feels very very obligated to not disrupt the family (even though she's a strong T...) Once in a while, I can talk her into letting us just skip an event. All in all, I think it's healthy for me to go and be around all those people. But it's just not something I jump at. I mean, sitting around with a bunch of dudes who talk about hunting and boating and 4-wheeling and stuff...it's just not me. Nobody over there seems capable of mentally stimulating me, which is what I'm always craving.

For the OP....I do find that I turn down offers from my brother and sister to go do things (both ENFP), and I think I do so because they like to invite all types of people to their events (because they seem to be able to get along), and I end up just feeling awkward. They are all over the place, too, so I don't often feel comfortable. ENFP's are "People persons and Idea persons"...

sometimes I just want to tell my brother "Dude, I don't get along with all those people." He definitely is an idealist. Often he'll be like "That's Doug, let me introduce you to him, you'll like him...." and I'm like "...ehhh...please don't." I really don't feel the need to 'meet Doug'.

My siblings and I do get along great, but it works better when they come hang out at my apartment and we watch TV or whatever and just be goofy. The only thing that drives me nuts about it is my brothers cell phone. He gets calls like every 5 minutes, and I wish he'd have the courtesy to put the damn phone down when he's decided to dedicate his evening to lounging around at my place.

[PortInStorm]

Oh Joe, I sympathize... you've just described my husband's family. He's a little flexible about them, but not very. I got a very, very strong push to go to my sister-in-law's, his cousins' (x2) baby/wedding showers (here we've covered about 5 female only, feminista gatherings), but a little less pressure for the
- "So-and-so's house arrest is over" party,
- the "Susan and Sam are going to Egypt to teach" party, the
- Boxing Day turkey-a-thon at the grandparents
etc, etc. (and these were genuine parties, where males and females are separated, and we obviously start talking about decorating, babies, and clothes. None of which interest me)

But friends wanting us to 'meet' their friends is one of my biggest pet peeves. " I wanted to be friends with YOU, and friendship isn't a package deal!".

[Firelie]

I'm not a nag, I just expect them to come because it's a unique activity, but I'm laid-back about logistics. Are INTs more comfortable with an SJ approach to social activities that are generally more traditional, & where they might take a more pushy approach to get them there? It confuses me, it seems like they would prefer the NF way that would be more open-ended & different from the usual.

Uhm, yeah. I have some comments.

Firstly, you shouldn't "expect" them to come. There are many factors influencing a decision to attend a gathering or not...the other people attending, what's going on, whether or not the INT's had too much socialization already and wants to recharge (and yes, sometimes it doesn't take much to desire a recharge. I have friends who always want to go out on a Friday night, and it's really hard to explain how "peopled-out" I can get over the course of a work week, simply by being at work around people)

Secondly, don't try the pushy approach. That'll just make them resent you and ruin your chances at getting them to come to your gatherings in the future.

And lastly, something everyone hosting any sort of a gathering should know(not to say you do this, just fyi). Let them go when they want to go. There is nothing that makes me not want to socialize more than a host that tries to get me to stay when I've had enough.

[INTJoe]

My only social "rules" would be come casually hang out for good food & good conversation--accepting about 1/2 of the time to come!


lol. 50% rate of arrival? That is way to optimistic. I probably don't even hang out with my closest INT friends 50% of the time they ask! haha. And vice versa.

EDIT: It doesn't mean they don't like you. Don't feel bad when an INT declines your offer. If you can get an INT to go to any type of social gathering, you've already won a large battle, so don't sweat it. Just keep in mind, INT's don't view people like most people view people. We don't see people as tools. We don't feel the need to collect friends and build a network. It's just not important to us. We really only desire people when we need their utility to follow-through on one of our grand schemes. It sounds weird, but to me, people are sort of a "necessary evil." And since INT's don't see a whole lot of utility out of hanging out shooting the sh*t...well, it's going to be very difficult to get us to come. Likely, if you do get an INT to go out with you to some sort of large social gathering, it may mean they are overstressed or overworked and looking to get sh*t-faced drunk. But if an INT is operating smoothly, they're likely just fine and dandy chillin' at home doing research or something.

[thod]

It's just not important to us. We really only desire people when we need their utility to follow-through on one of our grand schemes.

Only true of INTJ's. To me as INTP they are information sources never tools. The only way that they are tools as in counters to my theorizing. I enjoy talking to INTs as they bring new points and insights. They are not friends in the sense of a relationship, anyone else saying the same could be substituted. We INTPs are not preoccupied in getting things done the objective is understanding. Once something is understood then interest fades, any implementations are boring since I now know what the result will be. Its time to find a new subject to understand.

[JTG]

Yeah, agreed on the information gathering thing. I've been accused of being a gossip before, because i get people to talk to me about a lot of goings on. It's not that i do it for some kind of emotional satisfaction of being in everybody's business... i just LOVE gathering information. The more information i gather the better, in my opinion. I don't even care if it's right or not, since even wrong info can teach you who the reliable sources are.

It pisses off the more uptight people that i "stick my nose out too much," and it pisses off the busybodies that i don't gab nearly as much as i listen. Some folks get pissy because i know too much, and some are irritated because i don't share the wealth, haha


Secondly, don't try the pushy approach. That'll just make them resent you and ruin your chances at getting them to come to your gatherings in the future.

Totally a big point here. I'm so passive aggressive it's not even funny. Any kind of push or resentment (at my refusal) on top of the initial invite only makes me less likely to go to the event in question or any future events. If i don't hear from somebody very often, and then they pop up out of the blue asking to hang out, i'm much more likely to go out than if somebody's asking me five nights a week to come hang out.

[iamnotspock]

I am willing to attend "social obligations" as long as I can use it as an opportunity to enforce "thinking obligations" amongs the mindless noobs that generally show up. Seeing as most noobs don't like to think, they are probably happy that I usually don't show up.