Do ST's annoy you? (no, this isn't a hate thread, I'm really asking)

[Hdier]

Hey, I have an ST (ISTJ) dad, and know a few others at school. Some times we 'operate on the same frequency' (stole that from Solaris' personal text; couldn't think of a better way to put it), but most of the time we piss each other off. They tend to think that there is one 'right way' of doing things, and think in absolutes to much. Also, they were all disturbed when they learned that my morals were based on the way I feel about things, and tend to shun emotion as much as possible. One final thing, they seem to think that logic is absolutely perfect and cannot ever possibly be wrong, or tell you to do the wrong thing (morally of pragmatically speaking). Do they tend to bother anyone else?

Please tell me if it is pure coincidence that they share these traits, and most ST's don't.

[Colette]

I interact with a plethora of STs in everyday life (in fact they are probably the most prevalent type around me at the moment), and yes, there are traits they exhibit which do annoy, frustrate, and bemuse me. However I'd be reluctant to generalize by stating that they 'all annoy me' - it depends on the individual, the strength of their preferences, and whether they exhibit their preferences in what I perceive as a healthy and holistic way, as opposed to embodying some kind of caricature of ST-ism.

The lack of ability to engage, or take an interest in, abstract ideas, is often an issue for me, as is difficulties in ordinary conversational communication, due to the need on their part to follow a step-by-step and linear approach to any line of conversation.

[Caramel]

My best friend is a ISTJ and he doesn't annoy me. But then, he never exibits the traits you describe in the first post. And he's only one ISTJ.. need to know more to conclude something conclusive.

He is very linear, so easy to understand and relate to. We share simular views on the world, have the same humor, act oddball together, etc. He usually reaches the same conclusions as me, just trough different processes.

[Alpha Prime]

Do the ISTJ's you know lack the ability to see things from other people's perspectives? Do you find them stubborn?

[mind_wander]

My best friend is a ISTJ and he doesn't annoy me. But then, he never exibits the traits you describe in the first post. And he's only one ISTJ.. need to know more to conclude something conclusive.

He is very linear, so easy to understand and relate to. We share simular views on the world, have the same humor, act oddball together, etc. He usually reaches the same conclusions as me, just trough different processes.

Same thing here :) Different processes, but came out the same conclusions. Weird, but true. Is it always the same case on ISTJs, as you mentioned. It depends on the person and willing to accept some of those xNTx mumbo jumbo, then slowly it just might turned into logical words to them; I am not generalizing, but just a thought.

[Lucid]

Two of my closest friends are an ISTJ and an ESTJ respectively. Yes. Sometimes they annoy the ever loving crap out of me. That's what friends are for.
I think your description of the ST cognitive process is pretty accurate, but it doesn't bother me.

My ISTJ friend has trouble thinking in hypotheticals. When discussing Descartes and his whole "How do I know that this table really exists?" problem, my ISTJ friend's response was to pound on the table repeatedly and insist that we knew it existed because "It's right here! I'm pounding on it! It exists!" Recently his girlfriend had her wisdom teeth removed and was given viccodin and instructions to take one half pill every 4 hours. At one point she was in a lot of pain and was crying and asked for another half pill. Well it had only been 2 and a half hours and my ISTJ friend wouldn't let her have one because, "Damnit, someone took the trouble to write these directions down for a reason!" That, combined with, "Someone invented crosswalks and walk signs for a reason, Lucid." And "I'm a big fan of flow charts" pretty much sums up his way of thinking. I about collapsed with laughter when he said that last one.

While at times that kind of thinking can be irritating, on the whole I find it kind of quaint. So I see my ISTJ friend as reassuringly stoic. I think he sees me as refreshingly eccentric (I think it bothered him equally when I got my wisdom teeth out and was taking viccodin sort of whenever I thought it was needed... having thrown out the doctor's directions in favor of my own best judgement.) On the whole we tend to balance one another out pretty well in some aspects and I find that we understand one another better than most others in other aspects. Of course, he doesn't have any control over my life. I can't imagine being an INTJ teenager with an ISTJ father. It must be like beating your head into a wall repeatedly. I just use absolute logic with my ISTJ friend. We share a high regard for it, although he's more rigid about it. So I use my superior logical abilities to my advantage.

My ESTJ friend seems too focused on process for me. She once said, "Once someone takes responsibility for a mistake then the problem is solved," which, quite honestly baffles me. Also, it often seems like she takes a really really long time to see connections and grasp concepts that are easy for me. Oh, and she has to make every mistake herself. If you say, "Listen, I think marrying a former cult member who's 15 years older than you are and has serious mental health issues when you're 21 is a bad idea," she won't listen. But she's generally pretty good natured about all the "i-told-you-so's" after the divorce. She can sure get things done though. And won't take no for an answer.

I think if you can find an ST or two that you respect and get along with it can make for a pretty effective partnership. But then, I think my ST's are much smarter than the average human, so that may be a contributing factor.

Wow, this was long and rambly... sorry... I'm doing 12-hour days that start at 6:30 am now... please bear with me.

[Jgib5328]

I hate how STs can't think out of the box and you can't have deep conversations.

And that Descartes question, what is the deeper meaning behind that question? Is it referring the the subjective perception on existence, and that just because you think that something is true, that it doesn't mean that it is really true? I mean that you know the table exists because it is in front of you and there is no possibility of it being something else. I know that there is a table there, because I can see something in front of me that fits my definition of what a table is. I just want to make sure that I understand the question.

[Astra]

I can't imagine being an INTJ teenager with an ISTJ father. It must be like beating your head into a wall repeatedly.

Yeah, my partner is an INTJ and his dad is as ISTJ as they come: "I'm just trying to make you into a proper person" ;D.

They get on pretty well now, but mainly by confining all conversation to music and sport (like most guys I guess...).

[Lucid]

I hate how STs can't think out of the box and you can't have deep conversations.

And that Descartes question, what is the deeper meaning behind that question? Is it referring the the subjective perception on existence, and that just because you think that something is true, that it doesn't mean that it is really true? I mean that you know the table exists because it is in front of you and there is no possibility of it being something else. I know that there is a table there, because I can see something in front of me that fits my definition of what a table is. I just want to make sure that I understand the question.

Descartes didn't apply the question to tables in particular, we were just sitting at a table when we had the conversation about Descartes and it was a handy visual aid. Descartes questioned how we know what we know and rather than trying to explain it poorly and giving you the wrong idea about the whole thing, I would suggest that you look up the basics of his philosophy on Wikipedia.
"I know that there is a table there, because I can see something in front of me that fits my definition of what a table is," is actually the position my ST friend was taking. I think if you understand Descartes' philosophy you'll understand why that type of thinking, when applied to Descartes (which, imo, is generally best taken hypothetically), is incredibly frustrating.

[Zilal]

I'm sure some have annoyed me, but my last couple significant others were STs and I found their outlook pretty reassuring. It's nice to be thinking about the essential pointlessness of it all and ask your ISTP boyfriend what he's thinking about, and he says "I was trying to decide how to add a gable over that window." It brings you back to earth. Practical and stable can be nice.

[Paul V]

I have an ISTJ father (as I think I've already told you). As you've said, we usually operate on the same frequence, but we rarely fight (or argue). We just become disappointed at each other. He expects me to be more down-to-earth and grounded, and I expect him to have more vision and foresight.

It's more like a "when will he grow up?" from his side, and a "when will he open his mind?" from my side.

[Hdier]

Did I? I have problems remembering what I message. I'll have to see if I still have it in my Inbox.

Anywho, back on topic:

My dad does seem to think that I'm still a 'kid', though in reality I am much more 'grown up' than most adults (which isn't saying much . . . I have a low opinion of humanity). I hold fast to values that are stripped away from most people, simply so that they can survive. All the ST's that I know seem to take this as a sign of immaturity, of innocence. While I myself have never done anything (hence the idealistic moral code), I know a lot more than they think (again, not saying much), though I don't have any first-hand experience to anything truly evil. Though, honestly, I prefer them underestimating me (you never know when someone will turn on you).

Many seem (not sure what the right word is, so this will have to do for now) shallow, not wanting or willing to look deeper, and have to have it pointed out that there even is a deeper, and looking only into the surface of problems.

Also, Collete, read my modified personal text (I keep on forgetting that people here don't know me; not used to interacting this much with strangers).

[BlueTopaz]

My husband is a ISTP. I think I drive him crazy more than the other way around. He has to listen to me and my long expositions about things like Tolkein's creation myth or how string theory explains ESP. He gets this glazy look and I just bet he is thinking about how he is going to fix the engine or change the oil in his car because he knows he has driven almost 10000 miles.

[Paul V]

Did I? I have problems remembering what I message. I'll have to see if I still have it in my Inbox.

Anywho, back on topic:

My dad does seem to think that I'm still a 'kid', though in reality I am much more 'grown up' than most adults (which isn't saying much . . . I have a low opinion of humanity). I hold fast to values that are stripped away from most people, simply so that they can survive. All the ST's that I know seem to take this as a sign of immaturity, of innocence. While I myself have never done anything (hence the idealistic moral code), I know a lot more than they think (again, not saying much), though I don't have any first-hand experience to anything truly evil. Though, honestly, I prefer them underestimating me (you never know when someone will turn on you).

Many seem (not sure what the right word is, so this will have to do for now) shallow, not wanting or willing to look deeper, and have to have it pointed out that there even is a deeper, and looking only into the surface of problems.

Also, Collete, read my modified personal text (I keep on forgetting that people here don't know me; not used to interacting this much with strangers).


Holy crap. You're exactly like me. Although my father shares most of my moral code, and he once told me he'd put his ass on the line for me, because he knew I was a person with a lot of integrity. But yeah, most of the people I know (save some NFs and NTs) think I'm an elitist holier-than-thou judgmental child.


Hah! I've been trying to get people to look inside themselves for as long as I can remember. Whenever I say that the answer to all our problems lie within ourselves, people look at me as if I was insane. I often get the urge to ask them "And who's fault is it, then? God's? Don't make me laugh..."

(I know it wasn't directed at me, but I'm not used to interacting this much either. Everyone who knew me were shocked when they learnt I was willingly communicating with other people in a forum, even if they were all anti-social, cold, logical robots like me).

[Firelie]

I have an ISTJ coworker. We used to be friendly.

She has this way of obsessing over and getting upset about things that don't matter, though, that really bothers me. Like, stuff that REALLY doesn't matter...someone re-gifting candy, people not contributing to a potluck but having some of the food, people slamming doors (she got so bent out of shape over that one that she put up signs all over the door saying not to slam it, then tried to chase down the person who was doing it...no one else had noticed the door slamming, either), acting like the world is against her.

She has tried to get sympathy from me before, but I've pointed out a few times that I didn't really think her "problems" mattered. She's kinda stopped being friendly with me lately. Haha.

[Lucid]

I have an ISTJ coworker. We used to be friendly.

She has this way of obsessing over and getting upset about things that don't matter, though, that really bothers me. Like, stuff that REALLY doesn't matter...someone re-gifting candy, people not contributing to a potluck but having some of the food, people slamming doors (she got so bent out of shape over that one that she put up signs all over the door saying not to slam it, then tried to chase down the person who was doing it...no one else had noticed the door slamming, either), acting like the world is against her.

She has tried to get sympathy from me before, but I've pointed out a few times that I didn't really think her "problems" mattered. She's kinda stopped being friendly with me lately. Haha.

She sounds like an ISTJ with some mental or emotional issues to me... well mental and emotional issues other than being an ISTJ ;)

[caveman]

yah, they are the most annoying persons.. i leave in a room of 4 in a hostel and one of my m8s is ESTx, although we are on the same frequency on many things, he manages to annoy me most for the same reasons described by you.. he cant think out of the box, thinks in absolutes and doesnt manages to soften his logic, to take into account more options and to see more conclusions

[Jgib5328]

I honestly think ST is the second worst category after SFs.

My heirarchy:
NT
NF
ST
SF

The ST is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay below the Ns though. I like Ns a lot more than I like Ss. I think Ss are more shallow and they lack the capability to to think deeply, which I've already stated, but it just bothers me. I look down on S types.

[INTJoe]

The thing that can be frustrating about the ST's is that the "T" gives them the way to logically think (which is pretty great), but the "S" makes their logic totally different from ours.

The 2 confirmed ST's I know are my older brother and my gf. I'd say that the main difference in ST's and NT's is this:

ST's are smart at recognizing how things are done, and any other way is stupid.
NT's are smart at recognizing how things aren't done, and those ways are better.

So if I ever propose something to either my gf or brother, often times I'll get a "what? That's stupid. Why the hell would we do that? That isn't gonna work. I've never seen it done like that."

And before I can explain it all to them, they're already done with said project, and want to move on to the next thing. Even though they may have done it like the 4th best possible way out of 10 possible ways. ST's seem to be satisfied with doing things standard, even if they are merely "better than average", and an NT wants to always do something the BEST solution out of 10, not the 4th best.

ESPECIALLY when it comes to repetetive things, which, in society, almost everything that is ever done IS repetetive. So NT's see things as "well, lets do it THIS way, now, even if it's a little tougher to learn this ONE time, because it will be better the next 100 times we do it." and the ST's are much shallower "No, come on, let's get this done...you know how we do it. What are you? An idiot?" NT's would rather teach someone to fish, instead of going to buy fish from the market everyday for that person.

These comments are more related to my brother, who is ESTP, so we are TOTALLY different except our thinking process makes us both want to do things that "make sense", only what we think makes sense is toooootally different. To put into perspective how mentally different we are, I graduated H.S. with a high grade in Pre-Calc honors (nothing special for many INTJ's I know), and he graduated with Algebra One, Part B. I mean, mentally, we are miles apart.

I would say, to most people, ST's appear smarter than NT's. I think this is because the ST's SOUND soooo sensible, because everything they regurgitate is directly from what they see in society. So you hear an ST talk and most people think "Yeah, man he's perceptive...he's smart...he always knows what he's talking about...", while the NT often sounds aloof or clueless because we're always trying to achieve realization on a higher level. So when operating on the level of society...we're kind of...well, we don't sound smart.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, NT's don't invest much time in ground-level thinking, so when we present ideas....most people scratch their head and think "Huh??? WTF is he talking about....what a weirdo...gosh..where does he come up with this stuff?"

I think that has a larrrrge impact on why INT's have a small group of friends that we hold dear. People whom I can chat with on a higher plane comfortably are few and far-between...so when INT's find them...they cling onto them for dear life! Meeting NT's, and especially INT's in real life is like finding a nugget of gold.

Sorry so long!

[OneBadMother]

SXJs tend to rub me the wrong way in general, so the possible ESTJ I know really grate on me. He has a habit of correcting people on the smallest of details and being somewhat of a sore loser. Also, since he's an ST, he is "nice" to others, but only out of ceremony, so he'll give a very insincere-sounding "sorry" for trivial things like beating others at games, or an equally insincere sounding "aww" when others are having problems, regardless of whether they're asking for sympathy. He prides himself on the stock of things he's memorized, regardless of whether or not he comprehends said things.

ISTPs are actually okay. Not particularly deep thinkers, but they're at least laid-back.

[Antares]

Well, I don't know which person in my life is an ISTJ, but my mother is an ISFJ and she does annoy me. She worships tradition (understandably) and only knows what she thinks. When I talk to her, It's always: Well, I think it's like that. End of conversation. She likes to do what has always been done and doesn't like change. Back then, there was something 'universally' wrong with being homosexual, and she just can't tolerate that... Not even today. She clings on to traditional thoughts like her life depends on it. When I ask her to consider some other possibility, she always say: It can't happen.

I lost my sterling silver flute last week. And guess what my mother was yelling to me about? "I've rescheduled your meeting with your teacher three times! And now you want me to tell him that you can't go tomorrow? How the hell am I supposed to explain to him, huh? Why am I always here to clean up your mess?" And the flute? No, she didn't mention that at all. Obviously, she cared more about what the teacher thought of her than focusing her energy on devising a course of action to find the flute. She's freaking out on something that really doesn't matter, and neglecting the thing that cost her £1000 to buy. :rolleyes:

I think SF's, or xSxx's think that non-comformity is immature. I've expressed my desire not to comform to some of society's norms simply because I think they are not right and illogical. My mother called me immature and gave me a long speech on how if I dont be 'normal', I'll never be happy because people will have a hard time accepting me. I was like: Damn. I don't need them if they have a problem with rational thinking! Then my mother proceeded to say something like: Immature, anti-social, has mental/emotional problems etc... She's always been telling me that I think I'm mature, but in reality I'm really very immature. She thinks that I'm a extremist who holds disdain and bitter disappointment for the world (that's actually true... I have no confidence in humanity) with something missing in my brain, for me to be so radical and weird. When I was complaining about the government: "You haven't given it a chance! Things are getting better, can't you see?" "Uh... No..." There was this once, we had a long debate about pseudoscience. After that, she asked: "Did you think about our [My father and my mother] views and change some of your extreme ones?" I responded negative. She wasn't pleased. She seems to think that pseudoscience has a value because its giving people 'emotional comfort', and false emotional indulgence and wishful thinking is somehow worth investing money in, when that money could have been spent for greater, tangible purposes. Say, Darfur, ending starvation globally and environmental restoration.

But yeah, most of the people I know (save some NFs and NTs) think I'm an elitist holier-than-thou judgmental child.


Elitist? That's completely me... Or people's image of me anyway. I agree with you, and that probably means that my mother doesn't know me well at all, as much as she claims to. "I know you better than you know yourself! Contrary to what you think you are, I know better" Typical ISFJ.

[Danisty]

My mom is an ESTJ and we get along great, but she's not anything like you described. I would agree that most STs are exactly as INTJoe described though. I don't know why, but my mom is really good at thinking outside of the box and it's my father (ENTJ) who seems to have to do things the way he was taught and can't handle any deviation from that. Mom always tells him not to say to her that she can't do something (as in, it's impossible) because she will prove she can. I wonder if she learned this from me though?

[ElstonGunn]

My brother is an ISTJ and we get along great. I guess I don't always understand his way of thinking, but he and I often end up at the same place by taking different routes.

My mom is an ISFJ. I can usually understand why she does things, but I almost never understand why her reasons for doing things are any good. It's like, "We have to have Christmas dinner over here this year. That's the tradition." I think, "Okay, so you like keeping traditions. Um, why is that?"

SPs are the ones that bother me, particularly ESFPs. I know they're nice, good, and decent people. Disclaimers (and level-headed thinking on my part) aside, they annoy me to no end. They're the people who'll tell you that they 'like to have fun.' Oh really? I hate having fun. I'd rather pour bleach into my eyes, because fun sucks. But you know what they really mean when they say that they like to have fun is 'I like to act like a maniac whacked out on PCP, and do a bunch of really stupid things, and then ignore the consequences. And I usually get away with it, so I'm not planning on growing up any time soon. I think I'll just be a perpetual obnoxious teenager.'

Sorry for the rant, there. I don't really have anything against them. (Unless they try to force me to be like them. Live and let live, right?)

[Lucid]

SPs are the ones that bother me, particularly ESFPs. I know they're nice, good, and decent people. Disclaimers (and level-headed thinking on my part) aside, they annoy me to no end. They're the people who'll tell you that they 'like to have fun.' Oh really? I hate having fun. I'd rather pour bleach into my eyes, because fun sucks. But you know what they really mean when they say that they like to have fun is 'I like to act like a maniac whacked out on PCP, and do a bunch of really stupid things, and then ignore the consequences. And I usually get away with it, so I'm not planning on growing up any time soon. I think I'll just be a perpetual obnoxious teenager.

That pretty much nails my ESFP friend. She's a 35 year-old stripper in Vegas. Lover her to death, but we definitely have different priorities and different ideas about what's "fun."

[Paul V]

Elitist? That's completely me... Or people's image of me anyway. I agree with you, and that probably means that my mother doesn't know me well at all, as much as she claims to. "I know you better than you know yourself! Contrary to what you think you are, I know better" Typical ISFJ.


ENFJ mother here, and she says the same.





Paul V added to this post, 4 minutes and 31 seconds later...

SPs are the ones that bother me, particularly ESFPs. I know they're nice, good, and decent people. Disclaimers (and level-headed thinking on my part) aside, they annoy me to no end. They're the people who'll tell you that they 'like to have fun.' Oh really? I hate having fun. I'd rather pour bleach into my eyes, because fun sucks. But you know what they really mean when they say that they like to have fun is 'I like to act like a maniac whacked out on PCP, and do a bunch of really stupid things, and then ignore the consequences. And I usually get away with it, so I'm not planning on growing up any time soon. I think I'll just be a perpetual obnoxious teenager.'

I completely and absolutely agree with this, down to the last dot. I said in another thread that I'd rather be impaled by a pole than doing something stupid just for the sake of it.

[Hdier]

My brother is an ISTJ and we get along great. I guess I don't always understand his way of thinking, but he and I often end up at the same place by taking different routes.

Hmmm, perhaps our frustration is born of having to work with them, or having them in a higher position of authority than you (being able to boss you around). When we know of a better way to do things, and they reject it, and force us to do it a different way, than we become ticked off at them, and harbor resentment. I know I, at least, hate doing anything just because that's the way 'everyone else' does it, and you all seem to share similar sentiments from your posts.

When we become annoyed with someone not in a higher position, it is perhaps a frustration with the lack of efficiency itself, rather than the person as much, and/or the fact that it may affect us (co-workers).

[Antares]

Hmmm, perhaps our frustration is born of having to work with them, or having them in a higher position of authority than you (being able to boss you around). When we know of a better way to do things, and they reject it, and force us to do it a different way, than we become ticked off at them, and harbor resentment. I know I, at least, hate doing anything just because that's the way 'everyone else' does it, and you all seem to share similar sentiments from your posts.

When we become annoyed with someone not in a higher position, it is perhaps a frustration with the lack of efficiency itself, rather than the person as much, and/or the fact that it may affect us (co-workers).

Agreed. I'll admit it. I hate being bossed around, especially by people who are not very open-minded. I don't like to comform to 'majority'. I think we all know that most of the people aren't that smart, and that probably says something about the quality of their views. If something's not right, I'll express that no matter who says it, and if disagreeing with the majority will destroy most of my social life, then so be it. I'd rather be right.

[Aurelia]

I actually married an ISTJ. Do we annoy each other at times? Absolutely. I wouldn't say that it is higher than any married couple. For the most part we are the best of friends. What I have to watch for is picking on him too much. Sometimes I just can't help myself. It's too much fun.

[Uytuun]

A good friend of mine is an ISTJ. I can deal, although I get irritated sometimes. They certainly have their good sides too.

[Mountain Lion]

Just wanted to throw this out there: perhaps, it's not that good of an idea of becoming so comfortable with these typologies as to start categorizing people left, right and center. People are not that simple as to fit any particular category and personalities do change. I could have started a new thread, I guess. I'll try, in fact. Don't mean to interrupt the discussion, my apologies.

[xanodel]

Hrmm...it depends. They are logical, yes, usually, but they also have rather adept skills of short-sightedness. Like starting a company on the spur of the moment, deciding to expand on the spur of the moment, and then realizing 5 years down the line they probably need management. And they can go it alone without any guidance (whether books, classes, other people etc). My NTness asks, "Gee, when you started this thing, didn't you see any of that?" But generally speaking, I don't dislike them, just they can annoy me since they can be so logical yet so infuriating.

[robin.]

Hrmm...it depends. They are logical, yes, usually, but they also have rather adept skills of short-sightedness. Like starting a company on the spur of the moment, deciding to expand on the spur of the moment, and then realizing 5 years down the line they probably need management. And they can go it alone without any guidance (whether books, classes, other people etc). My NTness asks, "Gee, when you started this thing, didn't you see any of that?" But generally speaking, I don't dislike them, just they can annoy me since they can be so logical yet so infuriating.I doubt an SJ would do that. That kind of a decision seems highly illogical, and ISTJs are usually very practical.

Perhaps I say that because I know I would never, ever make such a shortsighted choice, but then again I usually test around 50/50 for S/N. I'm not as abstract as most Ns, but I usually catch onto patterns and am fairly insightful...

[Snowdragon]

I hate how STs can't think out of the box and you can't have deep conversations.

I agree 110%. This is one of the many things that annoy the hell out of me about ST, especially xSTJs.

[Henry]

I doubt an SJ would do that. That kind of a decision seems highly illogical, and ISTJs are usually very practical.

Perhaps I say that because I know I would never, ever make such a shortsighted choice, but then again I usually test around 50/50 for S/N. I'm not as abstract as most Ns, but I usually catch onto patterns and am fairly insightful...

ISTJs are the least capable of all the types at anything worthwhile. They're great at working 80 hours a week for 11 dollars per hour, great at killing people to make a living, great at not thinking for themselves, and great at staring at spreadsheet for 14 hours straight. They tend to have few/no social skills and are about as socially inept as the INTP.

Creativity? None. Fun? None. Nice? No. Abstract? No. Joyful? No. Dedicated to anything other than themselves and money? Unlikely. Interesting? About as fun as watching staring at the carpet and waiting for it to grow. Intelligent? Yes, though 8th grade math.

But when it comes to shuffling papers around, shoving the boot on the back of that untermensch's head, or tweaking on irrelevant details, the ISTJ excels.

[Homini Lupus]

Almost all of my close friends are introverted and Ts (I presume). They generally can understand my theoretical discourses, as long as I throw in some examples and some jokes and I don't get too technical; and they sometimes help me get back to reality. They understand most of my carelessness about status symbols and are not traditionalists. Most of the possible problems come from the real world; by example they would sustain half an hour of travel in traffic just to reach a determined pub while to me they are all the same, places to sit down and talk (I'm teetotal). Also, they can blend in in external groups or associations while I get very uneasy quite quickly in those situations.

All in all, I think typing is very useful for self-understanding but with other people it is better to speak and go around with them. The assertion "X type doesn't get along well with Y type" is generally a nonsense.

[anul]

I would ST's have a high chance of being annoying, depending on how they relate to you. My father is an ISTJ, and well I find it hard to talk to him. I hate to admit it but he's fairly simple, he knows what he likes, and likes what he know! ESTJ's I can't stand, female ESTJ's are fairly easy to get along with if you're related, and you're a man. For some reason I find a lot of them are sexist. My grandmother is an ESTJ and she's a bitch to everyone, but I can't do no wrong, because I'm her only grandson, the same went for my father growing up too, lol. ESTP's aren't too bad, and I don't think I've ever really knew an ISTP. STJ's are generally the bad kind of ST.

[ElstonGunn]

All of the ISTJs I've ever known have been good, considerate people. Frankly, I find intuitives, particularly NTs, to be much more exasperating, especially when they can see past their own self-appointed greatness ("often" in other words).

[Lynne]

My boss is ISTJ, and while there are things I appreciate about her, it can be very frustrating to work for her. When I try to raise issues with her, I get the "this is the process right now and we need to follow it". She also admits that she is very black and white. I feel like I make a concerted effort to frame things so that she will understand, but when reversed she can't even begin to understand that there may be a different way to look at it.
One thing I do appreciate it is her lack of emotional involvement. When things get political (which translates to emotional) she doesn't but into any of it.

[ssrprotege]

ISTJs are the least capable of all the types at anything worthwhile. They're great at working 80 hours a week for 11 dollars per hour, great at killing people to make a living, great at not thinking for themselves, and great at staring at spreadsheet for 14 hours straight. They tend to have few/no social skills and are about as socially inept as the INTP.

Creativity? None. Fun? None. Nice? No. Abstract? No. Joyful? No. Dedicated to anything other than themselves and money? Unlikely. Interesting? About as fun as watching staring at the carpet and waiting for it to grow. Intelligent? Yes, though 8th grade math.

But when it comes to shuffling papers around, shoving the boot on the back of that untermensch's head, or tweaking on irrelevant details, the ISTJ excels.

Not so, according to my experience. Around 20% of Korean population are ISTJ's (5% for INTJ's). Amongst the ISTJ's I met, I saw very few people who lack social skills or who don't have fun. If you see this the other way around, they have admirable patience and diligence. Your very negative view towards the ISTJ's puzzles me, yet it seems like you had pretty bad experiences with ISTJ's. When it comes to social skills, INTJs and INTPs are as incapable as some ISTJ's. Imho, ISTJ's can be at the advantage in the social situations because they are more grounded and practical, which 75% of general population is interested in.





ssrprotege added to this post, 29 minutes and 23 seconds later...


Hmmm, perhaps our frustration is born of having to work with them, or having them in a higher position of authority than you (being able to boss you around). When we know of a better way to do things, and they reject it, and force us to do it a different way, than we become ticked off at them, and harbor resentment. I know I, at least, hate doing anything just because that's the way 'everyone else' does it, and you all seem to share similar sentiments from your posts.

When we become annoyed with someone not in a higher position, it is perhaps a frustration with the lack of efficiency itself, rather than the person as much, and/or the fact that it may affect us (co-workers).

Agreed. I'll admit it. I hate being bossed around, especially by people who are not very open-minded. I don't like to conform to 'majority'. I think we all know that most of the people aren't that smart, and that probably says something about the quality of their views. If something's not right, I'll express that no matter who says it, and if disagreeing with the majority will destroy most of my social life, then so be it. I'd rather be right.

Well, I don't know which person in my life is an ISTJ, but my mother is an ISFJ and she does annoy me. She worships tradition (understandably) and only knows what she thinks. When I talk to her, It's always: Well, I think it's like that. End of conversation. She likes to do what has always been done and doesn't like change. Back then, there was something 'universally' wrong with being homosexual, and she just can't tolerate that... Not even today. She clings on to traditional thoughts like her life depends on it. When I ask her to consider some other possibility, she always say: It can't happen.

Agreed. My mother (ISFJ like yours) thinks I need to be bossed around. She doesn't seem to recognize how I get exasperated if she keeps checking on me. She thinks I should do whatever the general population does. Whenever she thinks I should do something (such as putting some wax when going to the grad party, etc), the reason she provides is that that's what most people do. No, I don't do it because the majority does it (quintessential xSxJ way of thinking); I hate putting wax because it feels like my protein is denatured - and overall "what's the point? why?" Or so it is said that most Americans (75%) are Extraverted; she dismisses introversion/reserved-ness is negative. I have hard time understanding it: what is so bad about being reserved? If I over-socialize like Extraverts, I get tired to the point I can't function properly. I was forced to do some of stuff I hated because she forced me to do it. While my mother and I have some similarities, the way of thinking are totally off. It's like "It's tradition" vs "Tradition exists for me to selectively choose what's rationally correct. If we have a better way to do something, why not?"

My mother, like yours, has a certain set of rules that I must follow, such as restricted use of computer (1hr/week). I didn't really follow those rules because I knew it didn't sound right. What I do doesn't matter, whether it's my own research 'project' on psychological theories, physics, mathematical concepts, books, my college website, etc. Once I use a computer, she gets annoyed and says computers should disappear in this world. That thought process disturbs me. I tell her that she should look at what I do and think whether it will be helpful for me or not. Mostly, I do researches on academic subjects of my interest and read intellectual debates on certain topic in this forum. That I am using a computer is what annoys her. Sometimes she's an enigma to me.

You mentioned homosexuality: that one is understandable, I think. They have not known homosexuality, so the sudden idea of homosexuality may surprise them. Older generation may have hard time understanding it as it is.

I lost my sterling silver flute last week. And guess what my mother was yelling to me about? "I've rescheduled your meeting with your teacher three times! And now you want me to tell him that you can't go tomorrow? How the hell am I supposed to explain to him, huh? Why am I always here to clean up your mess?" And the flute? No, she didn't mention that at all. Obviously, she cared more about what the teacher thought of her than focusing her energy on devising a course of action to find the flute. She's freaking out on something that really doesn't matter, and neglecting the thing that cost her £1000 to buy. :rolleyes:

Does it mean that while she was scolding you about the flute, she sidetracked? Your mother is like mine.

I think SF's, or xSxx's think that non-conformity is immature. I've expressed my desire not to comform to some of society's norms simply because I think they are not right and illogical. My mother called me immature and gave me a long speech on how if I don't be 'normal', I'll never be happy because people will have a hard time accepting me.

See? That's what I don't agree with. In my case, it will be I am somewhat indifferent to society's norms because they clash with my individuality. A good thing is that my mother realizes 'giving a long speech' won't change a single thing. She somewhat accepted my 'eccentricity.' Overall, though, the more I read your thread, the more I can relate myself to your situations....


I was like: Damn. I don't need them if they have a problem with rational thinking! Then my mother proceeded to say something like: Immature, anti-social, has mental/emotional problems etc... She's always been telling me that I think I'm mature, but in reality I'm really very immature. She thinks that I'm a extremist who holds disdain and bitter disappointment for the world (that's actually true... I have no confidence in humanity) with something missing in my brain, for me to be so radical and weird. When I was complaining about the government: "You haven't given it a chance! Things are getting better, can't you see?" "Uh... No..."

That sound so much like a Guardian with an extreme SJ (either or both) trait. Is that your mother's case?


Elitist? That's completely me... Or people's image of me anyway. I agree with you, and that probably means that my mother doesn't know me well at all, as much as she claims to. "I know you better than you know yourself! Contrary to what you think you are, I know better" Typical ISFJ.

Totally same as my mother's reactions to me.

To Antares: what about your father? When you and your mother got into these kinds of conflicts, does your father act as a moderator? My father is an ENFJ. with an F function he relates himself to my mother and with an N he can understand me. He acts as an excellent moderator when the conflicts between my mom and me (which is pretty much every single day) arise.

[MysString]

All of the ISTJs I've ever known have been good, considerate people. Frankly, I find intuitives, particularly NTs, to be much more exasperating, especially when they can see past their own self-appointed greatness ("often" in other words).
Self-appointed greatness. Ha! This is so true in intuitives.

I have an ISTP brother who I probably get along with better than anyone I've ever known. The fact that I can't have extremely profound conversations with him about science or philosophy doesn't bother me in the slightest. Truth be told, I've never known anyone who seemed prepared to delve into the far-depths of conversation that I so long for. My brother is very capable of having conversations of a moderate-depth, however. He's taken to playing the devil's advocate in our conversations. I always win, of course, but it can be refreshing. My INTJ brother, on the other hand, is so bull-headed, it's impossible to have a respectable argument with him, though we do have profound conversations.

Back to my ISTP brother, he is pretty much viewed as the "black sheep" by the family, though I definitely don't see him this way. He has a surprising depth of character and a certain "manliness" about him that results in a significant amount of aggression, which he usually channels quite well into other areas. I respect him considerably.

[SongofSeptember]

Hey, I have an ST (ISTJ) dad, and know a few others at school. Some times we 'operate on the same frequency' (stole that from Solaris' personal text; couldn't think of a better way to put it), but most of the time we piss each other off. They tend to think that there is one 'right way' of doing things, and think in absolutes to much. Also, they were all disturbed when they learned that my morals were based on the way I feel about things, and tend to shun emotion as much as possible. One final thing, they seem to think that logic is absolutely perfect and cannot ever possibly be wrong, or tell you to do the wrong thing (morally of pragmatically speaking). Do they tend to bother anyone else?

Please tell me if it is pure coincidence that they share these traits, and most ST's don't.

I'm an ST (though I'm fairly balanced in both N/S and T/F). Take no offense at this, but I think you're doing a bit too much generalizing here. I don't think any of what you've mentioned are purely ST traits--for example, thinking in absolutes, which seems to be completely off no matter how I look at it. (It actually reminds me of my mom, an ISFJ.)

In terms of morality, how can somebody's morals NOT be based on the way they feel about things? That kind of doesn't make sense. Shunning emotion, again, is also fairly off (a reminder that I'm basing this off myself and I'm probably very different from the ST's you know). To be frank, I've always considered INTJs as most the ones who shun emotion the most. They tend to ignore any emotional response or argument and wave it off as an appealing to emotion fallacy. Same goes for the logic thing.

But then again, I wobble VERY dangerously between N and S, which makes all the difference.

One thing I've proven here (I realize as I reread the above), is that I've just abandoned about 99% of my logic, and therefore, assuming I'm an ST, not all ST's are so logic-obsessed.

[Functianalyst]

Hey, I have an ST (ISTJ) dad, and know a few others at school. Some times we 'operate on the same frequency' (stole that from Solaris' personal text; couldn't think of a better way to put it), but most of the time we piss each other off. They tend to think that there is one 'right way' of doing things, and think in absolutes to much. Also, they were all disturbed when they learned that my morals were based on the way I feel about things, and tend to shun emotion as much as possible.....Well at least the generalizations have been pared down from grouping all 8 sensing types to now making generalized statements toward 4 sensing-thinking types.

[curiousjane]

About ISTP brothers.

They are the best. Except when they get on your nerves and won't stop telling you about how they fixed the car engine. Or bought a new socket wrench. Or call just to "say hi" and then have nothing else to say (because you are the only girl they call and they just want to have a girl's input for once).

Not that that's happened to me recently, or anything. ;)

[Headstrong]

My father is an ISTJ. He is pretty much what you described, and yes, he really annoys me at times. We're so alike, but he thinks he is always right and will not admit to it when he is wrong. If he does, it is days later and he trivializes as much as possible...usually including some "error" I "made" that validates his actions/reasoning. Then I end up arguing with him to stand up for myself and things escalate from there.

[Antares]

Does it mean that while she was scolding you about the flute, she sidetracked? Your mother is like mine.

She gets sidetracked a lot, which makes me more confident in the concept of 'shadow types'. Under stress, one reverts to their opposite type, in her case, ENTP. She gets VERY outspoken, VERY imaginative, disregards EVERYONE's feelings and sidetracks. Once, I broke one of her restrictions and no more than five minutes later she started raving about other things that she's already yelled at me about because it came back to her and made her angry.

That sound so much like a Guardian with an extreme SJ (either or both) trait. Is that your mother's case?

I don't know... Get on her good side and she'll be a nice old ENFJ; that's when she's most open to other's point of view. I forgot her temperament numbers, but I bet her S and J are pretty high.

To Antares: what about your father? When you and your mother got into these kinds of conflicts, does your father act as a moderator? My father is an ENFJ. with an F function he relates himself to my mother and with an N he can understand me. He acts as an excellent moderator when the conflicts between my mom and me (which is pretty much every single day) arise.

I think my dad's either ENTP or ENFP. Kids love him like anything. My father just stares into space whenever my mother yells at me. Then she yells at him for not 'joining in the fray' and "act as if I'm crazy and the only one angry about this". Sometimes she yells at him amidst her tirade how "our daughter is like you in EVERY way" and berates him for influencing me negatively by acting indifferent and messy (he's a P after all, so that'd be quite expected). My dad and I have a similar reaction to her rantings. We just stare at her or off into space while she's at it and respond positively to anything she says.

[Vivid]

Even I'm annoyed by an unbalanced ST. Just for the record, some ISTJs can have very deep, abstract conversation. I'm not going to engage in one right now, though. But I'm capable of it when somethings sparks my interest.

[denaria]

Antares - just out of interest, did you ever find the flute?

[Antares]

Antares - just out of interest, did you ever find the flute?

Yes. My parents were about to get me a much better one (plated in white gold), but I had to find it.

[True Rune]

I don't know Descartes(He's a german philosopher and a christian maybe?) , but that's interesting..if our eyes and ears can be fooled, why not touch. Maybe the person thinks of physics and forces when you talk about that? But even then the senses can be fooled.. Light, waves, and forces.. Eh..
I have an ISTJ sister, and we get along great. I've tagged her with a title she is content with even though I don't think it's a good thing which is "apathetic agnostic". But she's not super rigid, though earlier today she was scolding her kid and afterwards I jokingly said, "because it is PROPER!" I don't really clash too often with other types, though I think "SF" and "FP" would be more annoying than a "ST".

[Claptonian]

I work with a suspected ISTJ and I find I have a lot in common with him. This might be because we're two IxxJ's working with three ExxP's. The SJ factor mainly shows itself in anal behavior, stressing out over things that are insignificant, getting annoyed when people get slightly off task, etc., but overall we think very similarly. I'm more laid back (probably due more to my weak J) and inclined to the abstract and he's more responsible and better at completing tasks that I find totally mundane.

One of my best friends is an ESTP, and we get along well but we're vastly different in a lot of ways. We goof around a lot but any joke involving irony is totally lost on him, and any time we discuss anything philosophical, his points tend to be very linear. He's unable to see the big picture but he doesn't realize this, which leads to me trying to point out how ignorant he is without calling him an idiot.

[MysString]

About ISTP brothers.

They are the best. Except when they get on your nerves and won't stop telling you about how they fixed the car engine. Or bought a new socket wrench. Or call just to "say hi" and then have nothing else to say (because you are the only girl they call and they just want to have a girl's input for once).

Not that that's happened to me recently, or anything. ;)

Haha, it's so true. My ISTP brother is a truck driver, so he likes to talk about that, and his car, and also his longboarding adventures.

It seriously scared the shit out of me when he called me last night, crying. I thought he might be joking at first, but he'd had a pretty messed up dream. I'm a good sis though, so I was able to make it better. :nice:

[Onward]

I can't imagine being an INTJ teenager with an ISTJ father. It must be like beating your head into a wall repeatedly. I just use absolute logic with my ISTJ friend. We share a high regard for it, although he's more rigid about it. So I use my superior logical abilities to my advantage.
You're absolutely right! My experience with my ISTJ father was hellish.:scared: Of course, now I understand why he would run his home like a milltary bootcamp. We were always preparing for the war... I understand ISTJ's are extremely prominent in the military. My father worked for AT&T.