Any INTJs in law school?

[Provoker]

Any INTJs in law school?

I am applying to law school later this year. It would be nice to get to know some other lawyers, or aspiring lawyers, from around the globe.

[Colette]

*Stands up and takes a bow*

I can offer advice, for a small and very reasonable fee ;)

[jdc127]

I am pretty sure I will be in a couple of years (by the time I am 28). I just switched form premed and I LOVE philosophy and applying it in the realm of social and psychological.

[coheir]

Jdc127, just curious - why did you switch from premed? I was thinking law school until very recently and now I'm thinking premed. Anything I should know before I get there?

[jdc127]

Coheir - it was a long a varied path for me, but - I knew I was interested in challenging myself and making a difference in this world. I was intending to enter into a MD/ PhD program so the govt would pay for my school, or a MS/MD so I could study what I wanted. I was particularly interested in the nature of thought and consciousness.

I also worked for almost two years in 2nd shift maintenance at a good sized hospital. I saw many things behind the scenes and I was in every room in that hospital. I had the opportunity to talk to several doctors when I was working in their area or practice. I have seen how hospitals function from the inside and outside.

I know that it would be too frustrating to me to be a primary care physician, and I knew I didn't have the enthusiam (or maybe not the balls) to be a surgeon. That is why I quickly came to the conclusion that I was interested in research and/or academia.

Then I realized that after a year each of chemistry, biology, mathematics that I was good in those subjects and enjoyed them, but I want to spend my life helping people by working with people and not molecules and imaging devices.

I just became interested in the conceptual aspects of law. (Actually, I have always been interested in politics but we have such a broken, f-ed up system that it would be waay too frustrating. (Similar to our fragmented broken medical system.)) I am now taking an advanced philosophy course in ethics and I LOVE it. This is what I am good at, and this is where I find my enthusiam and passion. I want to study international law and human rights so that if I cannot become a philosopher king (in the words of Plato) maybe at least I can help some kings philosophize. :)

Jesse

[coheir]

Thanks, Jesse. Exactly the kind of information I was looking for...I've been reading a lot of other people (all med students) who feel similarly. Well I think I'm back to law or investment banking, which caught my eye recently. Thanks again.

[pavman]

I was going to take the LSAT in Feb, but I'm not prepped enough, so I am moving it again to June or Sep... I've moved it like 3 times already.... but yes, soon. Not sure if its worth it tho...high $$$ low pay...well, relative with the loss in salary for the 3 years I'm in, plus the tuition.... anyway...

Took a law class in college, excelled and loved it. Think I'd be solid in this, except maybe the networking/who-ya-know aspect of it...but hey, adapt.

Also about 9 hours shy of a minor in polisci when I was in school...

Although... I am good at trading and predicting market movements. If I didn't have this nagging feeling that greed is evil...perhaps I would just do that :o)

Cheers!

[coheir]

Pavman,
Investment banking is holding some fascination for me recently as well...But it sounds like we hold similar moral views on greed. :) Apparently it's a good career for our type, though (so say internet sources, which I'm still not convinced are a great way to plan out one's life).
Plus, from what I've read you could easily transition from law into investment banking later. (Again, so say some internet sources)
I'm hoping at this point that getting an engineering degree will open up my options for either law, I-banking, or graduate engineering studies. The future looks bleak for engineering, though, unless I move to India and work for peanuts.

[Colette]

Plus, from what I've read you could easily transition from law into investment banking later. (Again, so say some internet sources)


Really? You'd have to make banking/finance/capital markets and M&A law, your speciality, I would think.

[jlh1108]

Hi,
I just joined this forum today. I am finishing my bachelor's degree in December and will be applying to law school after that. I am taking the LSAT this June. I worked at a law firm for 7 years when I was younger, and always wanted to be a lawyer. My bachelor's degree will be in philosophy with pre-law track. I think what you have read about INTJs being well-suited for law is correct, at least in my research. The literature given to me by my counselor at school supports this as well. Good luck with your endeavor!

[coheir]

Colette,
I guess I really don't know, and I hate to talk out of my...rear end. I've really just been reading about it only recently, and I found most of my information from Google and extensive surfing. It makes sense that M&A law would probably be the most natural transition. (Maybe "easily transition" was the wrong phrase to use.) :)
Thanks for keeping me accountable to Truth; when it comes down to it, we have nothing else.

[Colette]

Colette,
I guess I really don't know, and I hate to talk out of my...rear end. I've really just been reading about it only recently, and I found most of my information from Google and extensive surfing. It makes sense that M&A law would probably be the most natural transition. (Maybe "easily transition" was the wrong phrase to use.) :)
Thanks for keeping me accountable to Truth; when it comes down to it, we have nothing else.

It's OK - one thing you'll learn about me on here is that I will always ask people to justify statements that to me, seem odd. Nothing personal :)

[Bri]

I'm not in law school...yet. I'm currently a pre-law college freshman, hoping to start the applications for law school in 2010.

[More Tea]

I finished law school in 2007 and am a member of my state bar. A few thoughts/warnings to bear in mind, from the other side of a Juris Doctor:

-From my own experience, and talking to others from different law schools, going to law school was a lot like going back to high school. Tons of cliques and artificial people. In my case, my real friends from law school were 1) another sci-fi/fantasy fan and 2) older students such as myself (i.e., law students who did not come straight in from undergrad... or take a year's sabbatical and then come straight in from undergrad).

Not that this matters in terms of pursuing your own goals, but it may help to know that if you can't stand the twits around you, it is--alas--normal. Oh, and my school emphasized litigation to the exclusion of transactional law. Another dumb bias floating around out there. Notably, transactional lawyers actually tend to make more money in the long haul.

-Getting a job out of law school can be a real struggle, contrary to what any of these schools will indicate. Some people end up in long-term temp work, performing document review to the tune of $35/hour. Not bad in itself, but rather dead-end if pursued for more than a year or two. You should be better off if you are willing to move for your first job (I'm limited to my husband's area, but on the bright side, I have many less worries about student loans since he has a stable career). You might be looking at a long job hunt... several people I knew took 6 months to find their first legal job after passing the bar (and in a large, thriving metro area to boot). I am currently approaching a similar figure.

If you love law (or another area where the degree will be of benefit to you), by all means, go for it. Please be aware, though, that schools spin things their own way: they care about selling the "product" (a J.D.), not necessarily about what happens in your life after you've bought that product.

[coffeeloverfreak]

I briefly considered law (I briefly considered a lot of things) but never pursued it, as, although I love to argue, I find case law mind-numbingly boring.

My younger sister is in law school right now, which at least makes my parents happy that they'll have one professional in the family. Haha. At any rate, it's *all* about the social experience, especially at her school, which is the top one in the country. It's about building the networks that you'll need when you graduate and go into the field. A bit of caution for us INTJs I suppose. (My sister is probably more of an ESTJ or an ENTJ).

But then, law firms, like anywhere else, will only let you achieve the top if you're a good salesperson. In other words, if you bring in the business. There's that schmoozing skill we all hate so much and that all jobs seem to require, at least to reach the higher echelons.

[Windmill]

I briefly considered law (I briefly considered a lot of things) but never pursued it, as, although I love to argue, I find case law mind-numbingly boring.

My younger sister is in law school right now, which at least makes my parents happy that they'll have one professional in the family. Haha. At any rate, it's *all* about the social experience, especially at her school, which is the top one in the country. It's about building the networks that you'll need when you graduate and go into the field. A bit of caution for us INTJs I suppose. (My sister is probably more of an ESTJ or an ENTJ).

But then, law firms, like anywhere else, will only let you achieve the top if you're a good salesperson. In other words, if you bring in the business. There's that schmoozing skill we all hate so much and that all jobs seem to require, at least to reach the higher echelons.I've also/am considering it, but it also seems pretty boring to me.

In New Zealand the law system is quite different though- a lot more dry and dull than the way you do it in America.

I like to argue but, as my sister said who's in law school, its essentially (at least here) just memorising the law, and figuring out how to find a loophole in the system.

Now I like beating the system as much as anybody- but that doesn't seem very exciting at all. Its such a narrow field. And the rewards for it just don't seem good enough.

[integratedvelocity]

Hmmm...this thread has been comatose for a few weeks, but I'll give this a try anyway.

I am fairly sure that I want to go to law school after I finish my undergrad. However, my college doesn't offer pre-law, even though there is a law school. We are expected to be brilliant, ace the LSAT, and get into top law schools without a pre-law track. Many do, but I really don't want to be one of the failures. What skills and classes should I focus on to be most prepared for law school and a career in law? I am looking mainly at business and/or international law.

[Colette]

I like to argue but, as my sister said who's in law school, its essentially (at least here) just memorising the law, and figuring out how to find a loophole in the system

Gosh, I'd say with that statement that your sister isn't 'getting' on some fundamental level what law and the legal profession represent, or can offer. Just as a matter of interest, how is she doing in her studies in terms of grades?

Now I like beating the system as much as anybody- but that doesn't seem very exciting at all. Its such a narrow field. And the rewards for it just don't seem good enough.

It's not exciting for most people. It's exciting for those (like me) who do it, and are passionate about it. Some areas you can become far more passionate about than others (e.g. legislative development; right at the cutting edge).

[xanodel]

First year law student here, what do you care to know? Oh, and I'm in the US if it helps. Just make sure you ram up those LSAT scores and keep as high a GPA as humanly possible. It's a hyper competitive field.

[integratedvelocity]

What skills do you use most often in law school (writing, researching, etc.)? Also, how important is it to take math and science courses?

How did you prepare for the LSAT? For example, did you take courses on rhetoric or logic, or did you just make the most of your required classes? Since I won't be taking any pre-law courses, I don't know what the usual preparation is for going directly to law school after finishing undergrad.

[lordrrr]

*Stands up and takes a bow*

I can offer advice, for a small and very reasonable fee ;)

Oh man I want to be an attorney so badly. How is it? How hard are the tests? How much do you have to study? How hard was the LSAT? What tips do you have for the college I go to before Law school that will help when I apply for Haravard Law/Stanford Law/Yale Law etc.? Any books you'd reccomend for early study? Should I take Introduction to Buisness as an elective next year (junior year)? Is the difference between a paralegal and a dedicated defense attorney big or small?


Let me know please thank you. I'll have plenty more questions eventually. Let's start with this lol.
And I'll pay you two dolla. Two dolla make ya holla.





lordrrr added to this post, 1 minutes and 46 seconds later...

First year law student here, what do you care to know? Oh, and I'm in the US if it helps. Just make sure you ram up those LSAT scores and keep as high a GPA as humanly possible. It's a hyper competitive field.


By GPA you mean High School or college GPA? Or both?

[integratedvelocity]

lordrrr- xanodel means college GPA. High school GPA doesn't matter as long as you can get into a decent college.

[Introvertguy]

Hi all - first post on here, but as a (pretty senior) practising corporate lawyer I thought this was as good a place to start as any! I think law as a career choice for intjs is an interesting one - as an activity in and of itself it ticks a lot of the boxes, can be very intellectually interesting etc., but if you want a long term career in private practice you need (1) to be able to bring in the business, which means constantly selling to potential clients, (2) to be a politician, just to survive in what can be a pretty ruthless environment, and (3) to be able to manage people, delegate ruthlessly, and "lead" - none of those are things that come naturally to an INTJ, so tread carefully folks! Once you get to a senior level being good at the actual law stuff isn't even that important any more - that's what you have minions for!

[lordrrr]

Hi all - first post on here, but as a (pretty senior) practising corporate lawyer I thought this was as good a place to start as any! I think law as a career choice for intjs is an interesting one - as an activity in and of itself it ticks a lot of the boxes, can be very intellectually interesting etc., but if you want a long term career in private practice you need (1) to be able to bring in the business, which means constantly selling to potential clients, (2) to be a politician, just to survive in what can be a pretty ruthless environment, and (3) to be able to manage people, delegate ruthlessly, and "lead" - none of those are things that come naturally to an INTJ, so tread carefully folks! Once you get to a senior level being good at the actual law stuff isn't even that important any more - that's what you have minions for!

Oh, um, that sucks lol.


Couldn't I just stay a minion throughout my career? (I don't care too much about raises)

[Introvertguy]

Oh, um, that sucks lol.


Couldn't I just stay a minion throughout my career? (I don't care too much about raises)

You could, but then you'll get annoyed by all the not so bright people with better social skills zooming past you and pushing you around :rolleyes:

Plus most law firms are pretty much "up or out" because of the way the business model works - you either make it to partner or "of counsel" (like a partner with less cash and fewer admin/business getting responsibilities - not a bad deal) or you're outta there. It's all relative though - if you're of counsel in a top corporate firm in NY/LA or London you'll still be making $400k plus, which is enough to keep the wolf from the door - you just have the pain of knowing that some of the partner are earning $2m :irked:

The other route is working in-house in a bank or a corporation once you've done a few years in a firm. Moving from law into "business side" investment banking is actually pretty hard even if you specialise in securities law/M&A, but you can be a lawyer in a bank too.

I actually think law can be a great career if you're cut out for it (I've been doing it for 15 years so I would say that!) but lots of people aren't and hate it - they're probably not all intj's though....

[lordrrr]

You could, but then you'll get annoyed by all the not so bright people with better social skills zooming past you and pushing you around :rolleyes:

Plus most law firms are pretty much "up or out" because of the way the business model works - you either make it to partner or "of counsel" (like a partner with less cash and fewer admin/business getting responsibilities - not a bad deal) or you're outta there. It's all relative though - if you're of counsel in a top corporate firm in NY/LA or London you'll still be making $400k plus, which is enough to keep the wolf from the door - you just have the pain of knowing that some of the partner are earning $2m :irked:

The other route is working in-house in a bank or a corporation once you've done a few years in a firm. Moving from law into "business side" investment banking is actually pretty hard even if you specialise in securities law/M&A, but you can be a lawyer in a bank too.

I actually think law can be a great career if you're cut out for it (I've been doing it for 15 years so I would say that!) but lots of people aren't and hate it - they're probably not all intj's though....

What about smaller firms? I wouldn't mind doing that. There's this one small firm near my house. Actually a smaller firm would be my preference- I wouldn't feel comfortable in a big corporation environment.


And that makes me happy to know that INTJ's make the best lawyers lol. What is it that gives us such an advantage? And also, how is the actual, you know, defending/prosecuting you do? BTW I don't necessarily want to be a paralegal type, I want to be a defense attorney (I wouldn't like being a prosecutor it's not my thing).

[integratedvelocity]

How difficult is it to switch specialties, such as from securites, etc. to IP or litigation?

[Introvertguy]

How difficult is it to switch specialties, such as from securites, etc. to IP or litigation?

In my experience really pretty hard unless you get a lucky break, which is one of the reasons there are lots of unhappy lawyers out there - assuming you're in the kind of firm where you're going to be doing securities-type work you'll find yourself pretty much stuck in that area quite quickly.

Sorry to be a doom-monger!


What about smaller firms? I wouldn't mind doing that. There's this one small firm near my house. Actually a smaller firm would be my preference- I wouldn't feel comfortable in a big corporation environment.


And that makes me happy to know that INTJ's make the best lawyers lol. What is it that gives us such an advantage? And also, how is the actual, you know, defending/prosecuting you do? BTW I don't necessarily want to be a paralegal type, I want to be a defense attorney (I wouldn't like being a prosecutor it's not my thing).

Hi again Lordrrr - yes, smaller firms are a different environment, and one I've never worked in so I can't really comment. That said I'd suspect that the selling/politics etc. stuff is going to be just as much an issue in smaller firms as in larger ones - maybe even more so because in some of the huge firms there are strong institutional relationships with major clients which means a certain amount of the work just "walks in the door" and they just need really smart people to do it.

Not sure what you mean by a "paralegal type", but the vast majority of lawyers in the states or the UK (where I am) aren't doing any litigation at all - they're advising clients on what the law is in a particular area or negotiating and documenting corporate/banking deals - I've never done any litigation/criminal work in my career so I can't help you on that front! There's really very little in common between the kind of stuff I do and criminal defence work - they're two completely different jobs.

One thing to bear in mind if you're in the US is that unless you're rich three years at a top law school is going to leave you with a few hundred thousand dollars of debts you'll need to pay off somehow - my sense is that a lot of US lawyers from the top schools end up in "big law" because they need to get their debts paid, whether or not they want to do the work, which is not the recipe for a happy career!

[integratedvelocity]

Do you find your work consistently challenging/interesting or does it gradually become monotonous? I don't particularly enjoy doing the same thing over and over, so if that is a large portion of most lawyers' work, I should probably look at different prospective careers. I have generally been most interested in international law, which I would expect to be one of the less rigid areas, though I wouldn't know for sure.

[Introvertguy]

Do you find your work consistently challenging/interesting or does it gradually become monotonous? I don't particularly enjoy doing the same thing over and over, so if that is a large portion of most lawyers' work, I should probably look at different prospective careers. I have generally been most interested in international law, which I would expect to be one of the less rigid areas, though I wouldn't know for sure.

Hi Integratedvelocity - I think it depends what you do, but yes, some areas of transactional work (particularly corporate, banking and securities stuff) can be pretty repetitive after a while, in that a lot of the basic documentation is the same every time and the differences are "on the margins". Ultimately law firms are businesses, so if they can get paid a lot for doing "cookie cutter" identical deals time after time they'll do them.

Set against that, if you do other areas (litigation, competition/anti-trust, high end derivatives work) then there will be much more variety, so the answer is really to find out as much as you can about the area you think you want to do before you sign up to an actual firm - not a decision you'll need to make for a few years.

For any area of law, particularly in the early years, you need to enjoy the "nuts and bolts" of the job or you'll go crazy - if you like intellectual problem solving and can think clearly and logically, but you also have great attention to detail and a strong perfectionist streak so you want a document to be "just right" even if it's two in the morning and you're exhausted, then it may well be for you. If you're a big picture guy (or gal) with a short attention span and lousy attention to detail and you want constant variety and stimulation in your day, rather than sitting in a room all day working on one document, you might really really hate it!

One more point - if you're looking at what they call "biglaw" (i.e. the major Wall Street/LA/Chicago firms) you'll be working crazy crazy hours as a junior associate in most transactional areas, and it doesn't necessarily get that much better as you get more senior - say 2500 billable hours, which translates into working until 10/11 most nights and working at least one day most weekends. Even the most interesting jobs can get too much when you have to spend that big a chunk of your life doing them, which is why all of those firms have such huge attrition rates (like 60% in the first two years).

Having said all of that, I'd love to know what proportion of lawyers are INTJ or similar - it's got to be way way higher than the supposed 1% figure for the general population. Particularly in the really large firms, where you can get away with very limited social skills if you work in a very technical area and you're ultra smart and work ultra hard, you come across some pretty disfunctional people who are doing much better than they probably would in more "normal" corporate environments where people care if you're a "regular guy".

In my experience nobody in a big law firm cares how much of an oddball you are if you put the hours in and do good work (at junior levels) or bring in the cash (as a partner). That can be quite refreshing for people who have gone through life pre-law feeling like they're a misfit because they're smart, quiet, introverted etc. - and the other pleasure for an INTJ of working in a major law firm in a big city is that you don't have to waste much time with not very bright people (except some of the clients :thinking:), or people who are over-emotional and irrational - all of your colleagues will be somewhere between very smart and scarey smart, or they wouldn't have got into the firm in the first place, and lawyers as a breed are very much driven by logic and intellect not emotions and feelings.

Time to go and get on with my life now - I hope a few would be lawyers out there have found all this helpful!

[integratedvelocity]

So with two weeks vacation, that averages out to billing 10 hours per day, five days per week or fewer hours per day, but including weekends. Sounds fine to me, though my perceptions have been skewed by being raised in a family with two self-employed parents. Yes, I'm hoping to work in either Boston or Chicago, possibly New York. I actually have decent social skills, as long as they are related to work, not my personal life, and I don't mind "nuts and bolts" as long as it is clear what their pursposes are.

While in law school, did you take an internship with the firm at which you began working after graduation? It is extremely common in the law school affiliated with my university for students to already have a position in a firm by the time they begin their third year of study?

[Introvertguy]

So with two weeks vacation, that averages out to billing 10 hours per day, five days per week or fewer hours per day, but including weekends.

Hmmmm - don't forget though that we're talking about hours billed not hours worked - the traditional rule of thumb in law firms is that you bill 2 hours for every three you're actually in the office, once you've allowed for lunch, coffee/bathroom breaks, general office admin, sorting out the rest of your life (which you do have to do if you're in the office all the time!), keeping up to date with the law in your field and all the other things you can't actually bill a client for.

So even if you're a super-efficient worker, to bill that 2500 hours you're looking at spending 13 to 15 hours a day in the office, 5 days a week, for those 50 weeks. If you think working 15 hour days as your regular working day with only two weeks a year to recharge your batteries is easy then either you're a superhero or you've never actually done it :stunned: .

Plus if you're a junior associate then quite often you'll be getting ready to go home at (say) 8.00 at night when someone like me will appear and dump something "urgent" on you that you'll need to stay up all night and finish. Law is the ultimate client service business, so your ability to control your own working day as a junior lawyer can be pretty limited - you're at the mercy of the partners, who are at the mercy of the whims of their clients. If you do securities work and some 23 year old trader at the client decides they want to make you work all night turning round a document because they can, that's what you do. It can be the lack of control over their time as much as the absolute number of hours worked that can get to people most.

So yes, I think you should try hard to do as many placements/summer associateships in firms as you possibly can, and when you're there ask the associates some hard questions about what they actually do and what their lives are like - all the big firms spend a lot of time and money on lavish events/entertainment for their summer associates, who are often kept quite sheltered from the reality of what they'll actually be doing when they start at the firm.

And none of this is saying "don't do it" - having the name of a top law firm on your resume will open lots of doors in law even if you're only there for a couple of years - just be aware of the reality. Or come and work in the UK, where it's all still slightly more sane!

This is a perfectly pitched parody, because it all rings so true - the book is worth a read too:

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Good luck!

[integratedvelocity]

Hours = ouch! I definitely don't think that sounds easy. And I've never worked fifteen hours per day. Thanks for the insight, I'll keep it in mind when I get closer to deciding between law, business, or grad school (or consulting, the fallback career for many classmates).

[lordrrr]

Good luck!


Isn't it different if you're into criminal law?

[mxdntz]

"In the United States, over 70% of the population are Extraverts (as opposed to Introverts) and Sensors (as opposed to Intuitors), and a majority are Feelers (as opposed to Thinkers) and Judgers (as opposed to Perceivers). Of these 4 attributes, lawyers are at the other end of the spectrum as to the first three: the majority of lawyers are Introverts (57% of lawyers versus 25% of the general population), Intuitors (57% of lawyers versus 30% of the general population) and Thinkers (78% of lawyers versus 47% of the general population). Only as to the last attribute are they in the majority, being even more likely to be Judgers (63% versus 55% of the general population) than the rest of the world."

I cannot put links in my posts yet :rolleyes: so if you google "lawyers introverts" (without quotes) the article is the first result and it is very interesting.

I am also considering Law school in a few years, but I'm having trouble on choosing which undergrad degree. If the JD's in the room would list their chosen undergrad major, I would very much appreciate it.

I am currently working towards a rhetoric and writing major with a minor in psy, gov, phil, cs, geography or about a hundred others. It is very frustrating being interested in everything and having the confidence to know I could successfully pursue anything.

[lordrrr]

"In the United States, over 70% of the population are Extraverts (as opposed to Introverts) and Sensors (as opposed to Intuitors), and a majority are Feelers (as opposed to Thinkers) and Judgers (as opposed to Perceivers). Of these 4 attributes, lawyers are at the other end of the spectrum as to the first three: the majority of lawyers are Introverts (57% of lawyers versus 25% of the general population), Intuitors (57% of lawyers versus 30% of the general population) and Thinkers (78% of lawyers versus 47% of the general population). Only as to the last attribute are they in the majority, being even more likely to be Judgers (63% versus 55% of the general population) than the rest of the world."

I cannot put links in my posts yet :rolleyes: so if you google "lawyers introverts" (without quotes) the article is the first result and it is very interesting.

I am also considering Law school in a few years, but I'm having trouble on choosing which undergrad degree. If the JD's in the room would list their chosen undergrad major, I would very much appreciate it.

I am currently working towards a rhetoric and writing major with a minor in psy, gov, phil, cs, geography or about a hundred others. It is very frustrating being interested in everything and having the confidence to know I could successfully pursue anything.

Whoah! That makes me happy on the inside to see that INTJ is the ideal personality for lawyers. TAKE THAT!

[xanodel]

Hi Introvertguy!

If I may ask, how is it for say copyright and trademark law? I might end up going into litigation (for pretty much anything), so I think that might reduce some of the monotony of legal work. And I think so far, I am better at litigation than transactional (I can do both, but people tend to want me in litigation). Public speaking tends to come naturally for me-and I think (if I would offer any suggestions to Introverts), entering a debate team or some other team that forces you to do public speaking in any form, generally helps. You learn to think on your feet and calm your nerves.

I think one aspect of legal work I look forward to is pro-bono work, since that might be a nice break from the normal routine commercial work that make up the bulk of legal work coming through offices. Also, I've thought about international law (probably trade, IP related, telecommunications and arbitration), so how do you get into that?

A quote from a professor of mine might help here, though it's a bit omnious: "Law schools are nice and safe, you can get B-. Once you get out there in the real world, the day you turn in anything lower than a B+ is the day you get fired." So, how realistic is that?

As for law school specifically, my first year so far, I won't call it stressful, but I will say I've dropped nearly all my hobbies. So if you can't imagine dropping all your hobbies and doing nothing but holding a book, studying day in and day out, with next to no feedback, then I'd recommend staying out of law school. Your socializing revolves around study groups (which didn't help in my case), libraries and bars- which is probably why it draws introverts more than extroverts. The people contact is pretty much minimal. You have cases of people tearing pages out of library books just to get an edge over other students-it's not as frequent now, but it does happen (know college friends who are in law schools where that did happen this year). It's required me to gather all the discipline I have to just keep my head above water. Casebooks are plain confusing (and get more confusing when you read constitutional law) so generally in addition to your normal reading, you're reading hornbooks, treatises, and commercial outlines-that makes usually an additional 50 pages every week to understand what your textbooks say-per subject. Note taking in classes vary-you'll be tempted to chat and do other stuff on your laptop during class, but that little nugget you missed in notes may come back to haunt you (did for me in torts). Your grade is based on a finals-and that's it. Pray that you get a professor who grades on a curve (I got one who graded on a different curve and my entire section got bombed down one letter grade). And also, US law itself on some areas can be fuzzy and vague, leading you to throw up your hands in defeat and disgust-cause you'll have to explain it all on finals too. The clear-cut rules will never seem so clear-cut anymore after one semester. I think one person I know says, "First year they scare you to death, second year they work you to death, third year they bore you to death."

You will be stressed to death, winter break and spring break can't come any sooner, since you need to recharge, catch up on sleep, and just relax. But you will meet some incredibly intelligent people, some incredibly witty professors, some incredibly odd moments (I had a very funny criminal law professor who had us laughing while we were learning rape and homocide defenses, and a professor who sung a general rule for personal jurisdiction), and some wacky exams like Wizard of Oz and torts suits (or in my case, we had all the US presidential candidates involved in a finals exam). It will be tiring, but rich and fulfilling, so are you ready young Anakin?

[Colette]

Oh man I want to be an attorney so badly. How is it?

It's a very intellectually stimulating, and financially and mentally rewarding career. It's well worth pursuing, if you end up in an area you're interested in and suited to. Don't let anyone tell you lawyers are boring old farts, or dishonest and manipulative, or whatever. Some are, but then so are some computer scientists, nurses, doctors, or whatever.

It can be glamorous (and some areas are more glamorous than others, such as criminal and civil litigation), but those areas aren't necessarily for everyone. I'm in an area that lacks glamour, but provides a huge amount of intellectual stimulation, and is quite creative, also.

How hard are the tests? How much do you have to study? How hard was the LSAT?

I'm not in the US so I don't know what the criteria are there for getting in. Here there is no 'pre law' requirements to satisfy, but the first year of the degree essentially fulfills that "weeding out" role, by failing 50% of students. Only 50% here will go on to the second and subsequent years of the 4 year undergraduate degree. Here there is an undergraduate honours program, which takes probably an extra year to complete on top of the degree.

How hard is it? Well that's a very hard question to answer in itself. Some of my fellow students found it extremely difficult and challenging; some dropped out during the degree. Some didn't do as well as they'd hoped. I did well I think because my mind was well suited to law, and the logical and analytical processes it requires. I didn't find it very difficult, and I did enjoy it.

On a relative scale, and speaking very generally, I'd say that Law is probably significantly harder than a Liberal Arts degree, and more equivalent to something like Architecture in terms of difficulty. I suspect it isn't as difficult as a Commerce degree (but perhaps it depends on areas of strength, and so on). I would certainly find Commerce more difficult.

What tips do you have for the college I go to before Law school that will help when I apply for Haravard Law/Stanford Law/Yale Law etc.? Any books you'd reccomend for early study? Should I take Introduction to Buisness as an elective next year (junior year)? Is the difference between a paralegal and a dedicated defense attorney big or small?

Yep. If there's a pre-law requirement, I'd suggest business and liberal arts subjects as good options. Arts are good, because they get you used to the process of essay writing, and analysis of a subject (or text, depending on whether you're studying English lit, or some other course). Commerce would be good because it will give you a good economic and financial framework within which to view the legal system.

[xanodel]

In regards to the tests: it's not so much tough as it's dull and boring (except for the logic games oh how I adore thee). I seriously fell asleep during the reading section.

My suggestion though is take one of the test prep classes ( I recommend Kaplan). You may frown upon it, but I'll share this: the first time I took it prepping on my own with prep books, my score wasn't bad, but it wasn't stellar. So I took a break, went to Kaplan classes, and my score jumped by about 12 points-which moved me up percentile wise around 10% of all test takers. It did make a huge difference, since now I knew how to systemically tackle the questions while using far less time. Also, I would recommend that you start prepping for the test about half a year or so before your test date-it's pretty much drilling exercise and you want the thinking to be as natural as possible-since a lot of the thinking even for an INTJ might be hard. It's linear, and we tend to be more wholistic thinkers than the test questions.

[veritas]

Oh man I want to be an attorney so badly. How is it? How hard are the tests? How much do you have to study? How hard was the LSAT? What tips do you have for the college I go to before Law school that will help when I apply for Haravard Law/Stanford Law/Yale Law etc.? Any books you'd reccomend for early study? Should I take Introduction to Buisness as an elective next year (junior year)? Is the difference between a paralegal and a dedicated defense attorney big or small?


Let me know please thank you. I'll have plenty more questions eventually. Let's start with this lol.
And I'll pay you two dolla. Two dolla make ya holla.





lordrrr added to this post, 1 minutes and 46 seconds later...




By GPA you mean High School or college GPA? Or both?
Don't worry too much about what to take in college, just so long as it's something a law school will see as at least somewhat academically rigorous. Political science, philosophy and economics majors seemed to dominate, but engineers, English majors and most of the other disciplines that either deal with logic or rhetoric/writing were represented. If anyone was advantaged, it was probably the philosophy majors in my opinion for the training in logic and writing that they had, but that's totally debatable and the advantage was probably only slight.

So just take whatever interests you the most. That's where you'll get the highest marks and improve your odds for getting in. Many people who start college wanting to go to law school change their minds along the way anyway once they discover other options.





veritas added to this post, 9 minutes and 6 seconds later...

Hi all - first post on here, but as a (pretty senior) practising corporate lawyer I thought this was as good a place to start as any! I think law as a career choice for intjs is an interesting one - as an activity in and of itself it ticks a lot of the boxes, can be very intellectually interesting etc., but if you want a long term career in private practice you need (1) to be able to bring in the business, which means constantly selling to potential clients, (2) to be a politician, just to survive in what can be a pretty ruthless environment, and (3) to be able to manage people, delegate ruthlessly, and "lead" - none of those are things that come naturally to an INTJ, so tread carefully folks! Once you get to a senior level being good at the actual law stuff isn't even that important any more - that's what you have minions for!
I'm looking for my second post so I can access the links, so forgive me if this isn't helpful to anyone!

From a litigator's perspective, the great thing about law (and law school) from the archetypal INTJ's perspective is that it allows you to accumulate information and concepts in a way that allows you to arrive at larger principles, which then have a practical application. The downside is the details: once you arrive at that larger organizing principle in your mind, your job is to continue your search through cases and legislation to find the exception or the small hole in your argument. If you want to win on principle rather than in the details, that can be draining. Also, you'll find that many people who go to law school enjoy the organizational and housekeeping tasks of law - these are the ones with several highlighters and their texts perfectly tabbed. In the early years of litigation, a lot of one's work is making sure all the boxes are ticked - that deadlines are met, all documents properly submitted in the correct format, all details taken care of.

[compson]

First post... Happy to find others.

I'm graduating from a top 100 law school in a few weeks. I've spent the entire school year determining what to do for a job after graduation. Some people are headed into Big Law, some are headed for the government service, some are headed for small firms, and some have no idea. Basically, those groups are in order on a GPA continuum, highest to lowest.

I can't imagine being able to work 20 hour days in Big Law, just for the paycheck, especially if one wants to have a social life (even an INTJ social life). I was pretty turned off to that, plus I have no desire to play the "inside baseball" to thrive in that kind of environment.

So, I've found what they call a "non-traditional" job working in-house for a small entertainment representation company. They've been farming out all their legal stuff, so even the limited amount of things I'll be prepared to do as a new lawyer will save them money, since I cost less than $400/billable hour.

Anyway, law school is JUST like high school. Cliques and "cool kids" abound. The Student Bar Association is just another name for high school's Student Government -- the extroverts who like to throw parties for themselves. Silly, really.

All considered, I did pretty well in my three years. After the first semester, I stopped reading the cases, because the worst thing they can do to you is embarrass you for not being prepared. Cry me a river.

[xanodel]

First post... Happy to find others.

I'm graduating from a top 100 law school in a few weeks. I've spent the entire school year determining what to do for a job after graduation. Some people are headed into Big Law, some are headed for the government service, some are headed for small firms, and some have no idea. Basically, those groups are in order on a GPA continuum, highest to lowest.

I can't imagine being able to work 20 hour days in Big Law, just for the paycheck, especially if one wants to have a social life (even an INTJ social life). I was pretty turned off to that, plus I have no desire to play the "inside baseball" to thrive in that kind of environment.

So, I've found what they call a "non-traditional" job working in-house for a small entertainment representation company. They've been farming out all their legal stuff, so even the limited amount of things I'll be prepared to do as a new lawyer will save them money, since I cost less than $400/billable hour.

Anyway, law school is JUST like high school. Cliques and "cool kids" abound. The Student Bar Association is just another name for high school's Student Government -- the extroverts who like to throw parties for themselves. Silly, really.

All considered, I did pretty well in my three years. After the first semester, I stopped reading the cases, because the worst thing they can do to you is embarrass you for not being prepared. Cry me a river.

My law school just dropped around 20 spots on the USNews rankings-and even though we're not suppose to go by that scale, I have a nasty feeling Big Law does. I've also heard via the grapevine that if you're not in a Top 15 law school, you can count for a very uphill battle for Big Law positions. Personally I'm aiming to finish my JD here, get some work, get an LLM and hopefully work for a firm that has overseas offices-personally I'd love to work in an overseas office. I'm still reading my cases (cause a lot of my professors like in class exercises that actually matter for my final grade), but stopped briefing cause it's a waste of time and the teachers never ask for what is on a brief-they assume you know and get to the mean gritty details that you conveniently leave out. XD Besides, that's what commercial briefs are for.

[lex ferenda]

Hi all, I feel compelled to introduce the small law firm perspective to this discussion. I’m currently working for small-town firm (7 attorneys) as a legal assistant in family law (headed to law school fall ‘09). One of the key differences between a small law firm and a big law firm is the environment. A small firm has the ability and (often) the desire to focus on encouraging a “family lifestyle” for their employees. As a woman I value this immensely, knowing most large firms with long work hours are not conducive to actively raising a family. (That being said, I’m waiting until I’m at least a 2L before dismissing the notion of working at a big law firm. You can move from big firm to small, but it’s infinitely more difficult to start at a small firm and move up).

The people are great, and the atmosphere is friendly and relaxed (sometimes too relaxed, us INTJs can get annoyed when people don’t share our work ethic). Just be aware, the salaries for a small law firm are nowhere near what a big firm will pay you, and law school loans can be a beast (the price of having a quality life outside work).

The small-firm environment has several potential limitations for those of us who are work-horses. I personally love to be buried to the gills in work, but as an assistant, I’m confined by my inability to “practice law” and thus, by my guiding attorney’s availability (mantra: 1 year ‘til law school, 1 year ‘til law school). I’ve also seen resources, both the client’s and the firm’s, be a significant limiting factor in how diligently you can pursue and research an issue for a case. Lastly, the mind pool is infinitely smaller, with not as many brilliant minds to pick/observe, a great way to improve your own knowledge.

Basically, choosing between a large and small firm is a balancing act; figure out what you value most and then you’ll know where you’ll be happiest. Easier said than done right? I'm still analyzing it...