Stoicism

[Colette]

Time to reveal a little of my personal philosophy on life.

So you had a crap childhood? The school system failed you? You get overtaxed and overworked, and shadows from your past keep coming back to haunt you?

I say this. Life gives you lemons, go out and make yourself a bloody great Margarita, sit back and enjoy...and then, suck it up and get on with it!

Discuss.

[thod]

If life gives you lemons, make lemonade. When the suckers come to buy the lemonade, stab them and steal their wallets. Mince up the bodies and set up a hamburger stand, use their credit cards for identity theft and empty their bank accounts. Franchise out your lemonade and hamburger stands.

[axiomtangent]

I completely agree. Having come from an impoverished and abusive background has given me survival mechanisms as well as a unique view on life and people that I directly attribute to my success not only as a person, but as a father and husband.

I deal with young people all the time (by young I mean 19-22 year olds) who have horrible cases of the “woe is me’s” and I have to realign their perspective in order for them to see the responsibility they bear in the framing of their own lives. Beyond the age of about 15 we begin to orchestrate our future and what’s gone before are merely tools that you should use, not waste.

As an aside, I really chafe at the wailing garage band types who lament their horribly mundane existence and the lack of understanding society has for their plight. Reality check: If you have a garage to wail in, then your life can’t be all that bad, especially after the aforementioned age of 15, which is when this odd personality quirk seems to begin its manifestation. If, however, you’re living a good portion of a year in the back of your Mom’s baby blue Maverick, by all means, wail away. (Damn, I ranted… again)

[Uytuun]

Stoicism is made for the INTJ, I'm studying it a bit now and yeah, I can totally recognise many of my own viewpoints.

[Colette]

Stoicism is made for the INTJ, I'm studying it a bit now and yeah, I can totally recognise many of my own viewpoints.

Yes you could be right. I suppose I was interested to see how many stoics we have on these forums, amongst INTJs especially. I do have a few theories about it - one of these is that F types (and especially EF types) are less likely to be stoic, and more likely to share and get advice from others on their problems. Of course this is generalizing a bit, but my experience bears it out anecdotally, at least.

[Uytuun]

Yes, absolutely. The philosophy leaves no/very little room for feelings.

[Colette]

Yes, absolutely. The philosophy leaves no/very little room for feelings.

I'm not sure I agree with that. It leaves little room for externalization of feelings, but it still allows the stoic to have (and process) their own internal feelings, about any given situation. If they are denying they have any feelings about it, or will not give those feelings head space, then they are IMO an unhealthy stoic :)

[Uytuun]

Well, I'm not saying that it's a healthy philosophy - particularly for INTJs. IMO it only addresses one side of mankind and I've always found the human being to be thoroughly paradoxal/in conflict/multi-facetted.

But as far as I know, the stoics consider emotions to be essentially misleading as to what is good and bad and thus ultimately what happiness is. As a result, a true "sage" understands that emotions should ideally be eliminated so as to reach a state of total equanimity. They don't deny it per se, they just don't consider it useful and thus discard it. Where have we heard that before?

Of course, there are interpretations and interpretations and interpretations and there are different kinds of stoic approaches (Seneca seems to be pretty mild in comparison to the others, but he's still bad-ass).

[xhaan]

Time to reveal a little of my personal philosophy on life.

So you had a crap childhood? The school system failed you? You get overtaxed and overworked, and shadows from your past keep coming back to haunt you?

I say this. Life gives you lemons, go out and make yourself a bloody great Margarita, sit back and enjoy...and then, suck it up and get on with it!

Discuss.

I tend to agree, there are limits, however. Some people whine over 'nothing', some people have good reason to whine.

Just because you can survive and conquer problems, doesn't mean you are going to have a jolly good time doing it, which I've always felt that the 'lemonade' analogy/metaphor implies. Lemonade is nice to have, having the shit beat out of you, isn't.

[Colette]

I tend to agree, there are limits, however. Some people whine over 'nothing', some people have good reason to whine.


Agree it's not nice having the shit beaten out of you, but I ask this: what's the point of whining? Does it make you feel any better, or the person you're whining to? Does it actually solve your problem, so that in the end there is no need to whine?

In short, does the "woe is me" philosophy on life actually make anyone feel any better? If so, is it the soliciting and receiving of pity (or 'empathy' if you prefer) from others, that makes this whining exercise worthwhile?

[xhaan]

Agree it's not nice having the shit beaten out of you, but I ask this: what's the point of whining? Does it make you feel any better, or the person you're whining to? Does it actually solve your problem, so that in the end there is no need to whine?

In short, does the "woe is me" philosophy on life actually make anyone feel any better? If so, is it the soliciting and receiving of pity (or 'empathy' if you prefer) from others, that makes this whining exercise worthwhile?

See, it's not "woe is me" though. For some people it is, they sit there and cry about how awful things are, and do nothing about it. But it is a normal reaction to feel pain and sadness, and it is normal to express it, yet at the same time take steps to overcome it. There's a vast difference there, and letting things 'out' can be a step in getting past the problem for a lot of people.

Edit:
For example, I wrote a letter to my dead mother. I'm not going to open the can of worms which are all that happened there, but I will say that taking that step helped me deal with mental reactions that seemed beyond my control, nightmares and PTSD triggers, which were not my fault but were constant, and I could not simply just 'will them to go away'.

Another edit:
And yes, I am very stoic. Probably to an unhealthy level, which is what causes me problems in the first place I think. I always want to solve everything, and never complain, or tell somebody that I'm in pain or having a problem.

[Colette]

xhaan, I hear what you're saying here, and mostly agree. 'Holding it all in' can be unhealthy, and can in fact make you ill. For myself, if things get too much to process internally (and I guess for me this is reached at quite a high threshold) then I will need to let off steam somewhere. I try not to dump on others, though, and make my problems someone else's problems, or drain them with my anxiety..

[xhaan]

xhaan, I hear what you're saying here, and mostly agree. 'Holding it all in' can be unhealthy, and can in fact make you ill. For myself, if things get too much to process internally (and I guess for me this is reached at quite a high threshold) then I will need to let off steam somewhere. I try not to dump on others, though, and make my problems someone else's problems, or drain them with my anxiety..

You're not 'dumping', if they are willing to listen. You of course can't force your problems on others, and there are limits, but venting to the air, or inanimate things, isn't always 'enough'.

Another tactic I use, is to write to someone, or come up with something I want to say to them, and then throw it away before I do. It's relief without the person actually having to hear it, you just pretend that they were going to.

And hell, I do that on this very forum, probably more times than people would care to know about... I start to write these long posts about how something made me feel, and then I realize I don't need to say it anymore because just writing it 'released' it, so I cancel the post, and nobody has to ever know about it.

[Colette]

You're not 'dumping', if they are willing to listen. You of course can't force your problems on others, and there are limits, but venting to the air, or inanimate things, isn't always 'enough'

Yeah, although many people will listen, to be 'nice' and empathetic. A long conversation about someone else's problems can actually leave them feeling drained, and in some cases, depressed. I don't like to inflict this on others unless I have no other choice..

And hell, I do that on this very forum, probably more times than people would care to know about... I start to write these long posts about how something made me feel, and then I realize I don't need to say it anymore because just writing it 'released' it, so I cancel the post, and nobody has to ever know about it.

Yeah, treating a diary like a friend, and confidante, is a good plan. It can as you say be very cathartic.

[Paul V]

I'm stoic, but not because of monetary reasons. I'm stoic because I was an overly sensitive person in a really cruel world. Needless to say, I've had so many traumas, I can hardly say I have an actual personality. But I suck it up and deal with it, because I will not be defeated by anyone or anything.

[Brian N]

On paper, the original Greek stoics read like total monsters. In practice, they were decent people. An interesting point, if you'll follow its implications.

[logos]

I'm stoic, but not because of monetary reasons. I'm stoic because I was an overly sensitive person in a really cruel world. Needless to say, I've had so many traumas, I can hardly say I have an actual personality. But I suck it up and deal with it, because I will not be defeated by anyone or anything.

ditto.

As an aside, my name on this forum comes from stoicism as does every name I use on the web -- all of my logins, forum memberships, email addresses and gamer nicks follow this rule. Of course, my passwords are not related. That would be foolish.

[Saurus]

Seneca wrote a lot of very good stuff. It would be interesting to know which MBTI type he was.

[Colette]

Seneca wrote a lot of very good stuff. It would be interesting to know which MBTI type he was.

He did, however my reference to 'Stoicism' was an attempt more to examine the general outlook as it might apply in everyday life, to an INTJ (which is why I originally had it in psychology rather than philosophy forum) :)

Declare your stoical colors, Saurus! Do you show the 'stiff upper lip', and if so, why, and does it work for you?

[AntimonyLegault]

I like to consider myself stoic, at least. My childhood sucked. I was the type that liked to keep a close clique of friends. Over time many had moved away or had become too different from myself.

In my introductory post I told of a 'best friend' who is now an estranged liability for reasons I don't care to restate. A couple of days ago, someone who I had put significant trust into not to screwwith me, over the course of my life did just that (he's an intp...his nationalistic attitude in the religious sense is what sparked the dissolution, I really dislike bible thumpers).

Now I don't really have any close friends, after what I've been through I'm not of the opinion it's worth the exposition.

[karen]

I'm stoic, but not because of monetary reasons. I'm stoic because I was an overly sensitive person in a really cruel world. Needless to say, I've had so many traumas, I can hardly say I have an actual personality. But I suck it up and deal with it, because I will not be defeated by anyone or anything.


I have always thought that the manner in which you handle 'life's little blows' is dictated by your personality and not the other way around. There are people who have gone through some though times and ended up disgusting whiney rags who blame everything and everyone for their situations, never bothering to pick themselves up off the floor. Others wear their sufferings like a badge of honor and feel as if the world owes them respect. Finally there are the few who internalize it and use it to climb over the next obstacle.

[Colette]

I have always thought that the manner in which you handle 'life's little blows' is dictated by your personality and not the other way around. There are people who have gone through some though times and ended up disgusting whiney rags who blame everything and everyone for their situations, never bothering to pick themselves up off the floor. Others wear their sufferings like a badge of honor and feel as if the world owes them respect. Finally there are the few who internalize it and use it to climb over the next obstacle.

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly where I'm coming from too. I don't accept the "I'm like this 'cos my life's so hard" school of self-pity, at all. Life is hard; it wasn't meant to be a bed of roses. Suck it up and get on with it, I say :)

[Ace1337]

I never bother anyone with my problems, I sometimes mention them to my mum and dad when they ask me, but I don't expect them to fix it. I also never expect anything from people, I just don't trust them. I hope one day I'll find a friend that would "give an arm in the fire for me" (how they say in my country), but that is really hard to find, esspecialy if you are an INTJ and don't express your feelings so much. I always rely on my actions to show people I love them, not words.

[Danisty]

Time to reveal a little of my personal philosophy on life.

So you had a crap childhood? The school system failed you? You get overtaxed and overworked, and shadows from your past keep coming back to haunt you?

I say this. Life gives you lemons, go out and make yourself a bloody great Margarita, sit back and enjoy...and then, suck it up and get on with it!

Discuss.I agree! Sometimes I will share my problems with people I'm close to, but it's always for feedback to solutions I'm already working on. But just whining because you didn't get what you want? Grow up! My brother is 40 years old and he still whines about his childhood. He even tries to blame me for him not getting to have a college education right out of high school. He's 40 years old, he owns his own house, has 2 cars, and he's a police officer on the K-9 unit. He has the frelling American dream and he's still bitter over some perceived slight a couple of decades ago. I don't appreciate being blamed for him not going to college when I was only 3 years old at the time! If he wanted to go to college, maybe he shouldn't have blown off his entry exam, run off with his high school sweetheart and joined the Navy. :irked:

[ElstonGunn]

I do have a few theories about it - one of these is that F types (and especially EF types) are less likely to be stoic, and more likely to share and get advice from others on their problems. Of course this is generalizing a bit, but my experience bears it out anecdotally, at least.

That sounded reasonable to me. I put Stoicism in line with NTs and Epicureanism with SPs. That's partially why I have so much contempt for Epicurus. Although I do try to remind myself that's it's personal, subjective contempt, rather than objective and universal ("This philosophy sucks for me," rather than just "This sucks.").

The only reason I ever talk about problems I have is to get a solution. Sympathy in and of itself is useless to me. Although I guess it's good to know that people care enough to offer banal platitudes in an effort to comfort me.

Epictetus's "Enchiridion" and Marcus Aurelius's "Meditations" are two of my favorite books. I'd recommend them to anyone who can find decent translations of them.

[Colette]

I agree! Sometimes I will share my problems with people I'm close to, but it's always for feedback to solutions I'm already working on. But just whining because you didn't get what you want? Grow up! My brother is 40 years old and he still whines about his childhood. He even tries to blame me for him not getting to have a college education right out of high school. He's 40 years old, he owns his own house, has 2 cars, and he's a police officer on the K-9 unit. He has the frelling American dream and he's still bitter over some perceived slight a couple of decades ago. I don't appreciate being blamed for him not going to college when I was only 3 years old at the time! If he wanted to go to college, maybe he shouldn't have blown off his entry exam, run off with his high school sweetheart and joined the Navy. :irked:

Ah finally we agree on something - and I would have picked you as a stoic, too ;)

I agree also that there seems to be some kind of inverse proportionality principle applying to the "woe is me" contingent. The more they have, the more deprived and bitter they appear to feel, and the more they accordingly want (and expect) out of life. However don't get me started on a rant about materialism and consumerism..