sandbox style video games

[Iggy Hazard]

If you're not familiar with this use of the term, a "sandbox" game is one that has an open-ended gameworld in which the player can cho0se to either play within the structure of the game, or create their own sense of structure, or just be totally random and explore for its own sake. Examples of this style of game include but are not limited to: Grand Theft Auto 3, Grand Theft Auto 4, Grand Theft Auto: Vice City, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow of Chernobyl, S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Clear Sky, S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Call of Pripyat, and Fallout 3. There are also mods that use the engines of otherwise linear games to transform landscapes into sandbox environments. Garry's Mod is an example of this type of mod. So what's your favorite game or mod that allows free exploration within the context of the gameworld?

My fave is definately S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow of Chernobyl and the Oblivion Lost mod. Clear Sky just didn't do it for me because GSC didn't fix certain things that I'd hoped they would (such as horizontally-inverted weapon models and incorrect weapon cocking), and they also changed certain things apparently for the sake of change, resulting in the gameplay becoming counterintuitive unlike Shadow of Chernobyl. Call of Pripyat isn't out yet but is due out this year (at this juncture). I'm not a big fan of the morally ambiguous themes of the GTA games, but I do appreciate the detail of the gameworlds and the exploration that's possible within them. It's so much fun to hop in a muscle car or jump on a motorcycle and go pull off some insane action movie stunt. Vigilante missions are fun, no moral ambiguity there, but are usually hard because there's a time limit. Multi-Theft Auto, a multiplayer mod for GTA: Vice City, was a great concept but was plagued with bugs. I liked to play as the Mexican dude with the Hawaiian shirt because he starts off with an M-60 and a chainsaw. :wiseguy:

Of course, M-60s are rarely (if ever) portrayed properly in video games. This is true for most general-purpose machine guns. They're supposed to be deployed with a bipod and firing from the prone position, ideally from behind cover. And they're intended to be operated in two-man teams, a gunner and a loader. The gunner and loader switch positions to prevent fatigue, as with snipers and spotters. In other words, a buddy system. Of course, it's different in the context of a game. Being dependent on others for your own success tends to be frustrating and severely limiting in a video game. Firing an M-60 from the shoulder is difficult because it's a heavy beast. In fact, it was nicknamed "The Pig" by US G.I.s during the Vietnam War. It traces its mechanical lineage back to the German FG-42 much the same way the AK-47 is said to have evolved from the StG-44 (though, some debate the AK and the StG being mechanically related). And forget about firing an M-60 from the hip like Stallone does with his M-60E4 in Rambo: First Blo0d, Part 2. Any shot that hits the intended target will be sheer luck. Oh, wait. That's right. Not only does he sho0t from the hip, he sho0ts from the hip one-handed! :laugh: So does Animal Mother from Full Metal Jacket. They hold the M-60 in their right hand and drape the linked belt over their left forearm. Also, that's how the Former Human Commandos appear to hold their "chainguns" in Do0m II: Hell on Earth.

Speaking of chainguns, the "chaingun" from Do0m isn't a true chaingun. Being belt-fed doesn't make it a chaingun. A true chaingun has a mechanism that's literally driven by a chain. Chainguns are usually very large anti-material weapons mounted on vehicles, usually battleships. The chain-driven action makes them very reliable and also provides a variable selective cycle rate. Some might or might not have a rotating motorized barrel assembly, but I think most of them have a single barrel.

But I digress. You'll find that I do that a lot. :wacky:

[MrDoom]

Good, old-fashioned homebrewed roguelikes (NetHack, GearHead especially). They might not appeal to many gamers (since there are rarely professional-level graphics or sound, if there are even any audiovisuals to begin with), but I love their open-endedness and the culture that surrounds them.

[Iggy Hazard]

homebrewed roguelikes (NetHack, GearHead especially).
I'm not familiar with that genre. Did you ever play System Shock 2? I didn't, but I love the soundtrack. It was overshadowed by Half-Life, but it has elements similar to the STALKER games. And it came out in 1999. The '90s were a great era for gaming innovations.

[azelismia]

mass effect and the ratchet and clank games

[Latro]

I'm primarily interested in what I see as the only true way to make a sandbox game, which is to make a sandbox MMOG. A game I followed for a few years with this premise, Darkfall, failed rather miserably at its goals, essentially becoming a pointless empty sandbox. (You can make the argument that a sandbox is going to seem empty to someone who doesn't like it immediately, but seriously, I was a damn fanboy of that game, I have 18,000 posts on its forum, and I don't play it, so yeah.) About the only game that has actually succeeded with this premise is EVE Online, which is still somewhat limited by my tastes (it's vast and expansive, but in the end the bulk of the gameplay is warfare between player organizations) and also has some bothersome mechanics (the actual act of fighting in combat is rather dull for example).

Here's to hoping Mortal Online turns out better...

[tp6626]

Why is your OP virtually an expose on the use of machine guns, when this thread is supposed to be about open computer games?

[MrDoom]

I'm not familiar with that genre. Did you ever play System Shock 2? I didn't, but I love the soundtrack. It was overshadowed by Half-Life, but it has elements similar to the STALKER games. And it came out in 1999. The '90s were a great era for gaming innovations.

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Roguelikes at a glance.

Never played SS2 (sadly). Half-Life though, I did a lot. Played a lot of Team Fortress Classic back in the day.

I'm a lot less into shooters as I am turn-based strategy (especially empire builders, to feed my inner totalitarian) and role-playing games.

[ArtistTyrant]

I like The Sims and GTA.

Also, you're correct about the portrayal of the M60. For example, in the FPS I play (Combat Arms), every gun can be carried around. And the M60 is ok super close, but the MK48 is actually the best machine gun in the game because of 3 hit kill on any vest, as well as decent fire rate and large amount of ammo. And none of the MG's have sights, not even iron ones.

[Algol]

I am not a fan of sandbox style games AT ALL. I much prefer a well told story, even if it means more linearity. Sandbox games always feel like a bad imitation of real life and leave a bad taste in my mouth.

[tp6626]

Ok seeing as you're all on about guns in games, here's a quiz question for you.

What was the first game to use realistic ballistics for the way bullets were fired? (I.e. following a parabolic trajectory, rather than a simplifie straight line).

No cheating with google now. If my guess is right, then I can remember playing this game when I was younger, and being impressed by the degree of supposed 'realism'. It made aiming decidedly more tricky, because target distance came into the equation more.

[ArtistTyrant]

Ok seeing as you're all on about guns in games, here's a quiz question for you.

What was the first game to use realistic ballistics for the way bullets were fired? (I.e. following a parabolic trajectory, rather than a simplifie straight line).

No cheating with google now. If my guess is right, then I can remember playing this game when I was younger, and being impressed by the degree of supposed 'realism'. It made aiming decidedly more tricky, because target distance came into the equation more.

I don't know, seeing as how I've only been playing CA for about 3 months and it's my first FPS (and I'm one of the best CA players in the world :laugh:). Counter-Strike?

[N0c7urn3]

I don't typically like sandbox games. I find them rather messy and the story is usually not to my liking. I guess this is the reason that I really regret buying GTA IV. I found inFamous rather bland and i could only squeeze 2 playthroughs before I found it unbearable.

However, there are some games that were fun. I liked swinging around in Spider-man 2. I'm not sure if Fallout 3 is a sand-box game, but I did like it.

I just generally prefer an immersive gameplay experience that is tied into one awesome story. Either that or a game that remains fun despite repetition, like tetris or those 2d side-scrollers in the Super Nintendo and Genesis era.

[Professor Bard]

The best sandbox game of them all (for its era) was Operation Flashpoint, about eight years ago. Some scenarios of that military simulator spanned entire islands. I played it to death for two solid years.

They've issued a couple weak sequels in the past year or so (ARMA, ARMA 2), but apparently the true Operation Flashpoint 2 sequel will launch at the end of this year. (Though they've been promising that for years.) Fingers crossed.

I agree with the general point. Sandbox games are the immersive worlds that we're all seeking when we descend down the rabbit hole that is the computer monitor.

[Latro]

Ok seeing as you're all on about guns in games, here's a quiz question for you.

What was the first game to use realistic ballistics for the way bullets were fired? (I.e. following a parabolic trajectory, rather than a simplifie straight line).

No cheating with google now. If my guess is right, then I can remember playing this game when I was younger, and being impressed by the degree of supposed 'realism'. It made aiming decidedly more tricky, because target distance came into the equation more.
WWIIOL is somewhat like this. I don't know if bullets actually go in a parabolic trajectory, but I do know that the computations surrounding hit detection are very complex. For example, if you shoot a tank in its fuel tank and have the proper bullet to pierce into the fuel tank, it will be destroyed, immediately. This probably isn't the game you're thinking of, but I figured I'd mention it, as it is one of the most realistic FPSes around (the most realistic one I know).

[Iggy Hazard]

Why is your OP virtually an expose on the use of machine guns, when this thread is supposed to be about open computer games?
There's a connection between games (the ones I play, that is) and firearms. I wouldn't be a truly "E.V.I.L." Republican if I wasn't a gun-nut. :mellow: Think of it as a bonus or an "expansion pack" to the original topic. I'm a stickler for realism and authenticity.

Ok seeing as you're all on about guns in games, here's a quiz question for you.

What was the first game to use realistic ballistics for the way bullets were fired? (I.e. following a parabolic trajectory, rather than a simplifie straight line).

No cheating with google now.
I don't know what the first game was that featured realisitc bullet dynamics, but I can tell you that the first game I ever played that featured that was S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow of Chernobyl in 2007. And it's the standard by which I measure FPS games. :nice: However, GSC sort of sabotaged themselves by making the weapon models horizontally inverted (ejection ports and charging handles on the left side, even on bullpups, and your character is right-handed) and giving almost every weapon unnecessary cocking animations. You cock any weapon that has a charging handle or slide every time you pull it out. If you did this in real life, you'd be ejecting an unspent cartridge.

the rabbit hole that is the computer monitor.
The Matrix in reverse. Reverse because instead of oppressing us, it sets us free. ;D

I am not a fan of sandbox style games AT ALL. I much prefer a well told story, even if it means more linearity.
Half-Life series for you, then. Kelly Bailey's music is top-notch.

I just generally prefer an immersive gameplay experience that is tied into one awesome story. Either that or a game that remains fun despite repetition, like tetris or those 2d side-scrollers in the Super Nintendo and Genesis era.
Flashback, Act Raiser, and Out of This World.

a sandbox MMOG.
Also called a MMORPG? I've taken to calling them "MORPs," but "MMOG" works just as well. I've read rumors of a S.T.A.L.K.E.R.-themed MMOG. *splodes* :cheesy:

[llBradll]

I'm a completionist, so sandbox games are sort of my enemy. I love Gary's mod though, and I love it a lot.

[Algol]

Half-Life series for you, then. Kelly Bailey's music is top-notch.

Even better: Planescape Torment, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect. All very linear but telling great stories. Even Alpha Centauri, a turn based strategy game, has a far better story than any sandbox game I've ever played.

[Latro]

Also called a MMORPG? I've taken to calling them "MORPs," but "MMOG" works just as well. I've read rumors of a S.T.A.L.K.E.R.-themed MMOG. *splodes* :cheesy:
Not all MMOGs are MMORPGs (put differently, not all games which are massively multiplayer involve roleplaying). Nor are all sandbox MMOGs MMORPGs.

[MrDoom]

Even Alpha Centauri, a turn based strategy game, has a far better story than any sandbox game I've ever played.

/signed

[Kisai]

I'm kinda 'meh' on sandbox games. Most of them have scavenger hunts of search for 100 innocuous items for a slight upgrade, or find-and-play the minigame for cash.

Complaining about the reality of weapons in FPS is like complaining that dragons and pegasi are aerodynamically ridiculous. I'm playing a lot of Deus Ex right now and there's a facility where a guard walks around on patrol in a foyer with a 100 lb. wire guided rocket launcher. The poor guy's back must be killing him.

[Cahz]

I'm a big fan of MMOs. Looking forward to Aion's release, Farcry 2 is pretty fun.

[Kris]

I've always like the Grand Theft Auto games, but I guess I was more focused on the storyline components coupled with the expansive environments. Being able to do whatever is good for some shits and giggles but I find it grows boring pretty quickly.

Great storyline or gameplay are most important to me.

[MrDoom]

I'm kinda 'meh' on sandbox games. Most of them have scavenger hunts of search for 100 innocuous items for a slight upgrade, or find-and-play the minigame for cash.

Complaining about the reality of weapons in FPS is like complaining that dragons and pegasi are aerodynamically ridiculous. I'm playing a lot of Deus Ex right now and there's a facility where a guard walks around on patrol in a foyer with a 100 lb. wire guided rocket launcher. The poor guy's back must be killing him.

I never understood where JC keeps that GEP gun (in addition to all his LAMs, assault rifles, and multitools) when he's not using it.

[tp6626]

Who remembers the 1st grand theft auto on the PS1? You know the 2D top down one? That was a cool game. Used to love playing that! :)

[Iggy Hazard]

Complaining about the reality of weapons in FPS is like complaining that dragons and pegasi are aerodynamically ridiculous.
But aren't we supposed to do exactly that sort of thing? That's part of what makes us what we are!

Now the wyvern, that's a different story. Basically a dragony-face bird without feathers.