Israel and Palestine

[Pkz]

And for the record, it's called Israel now, not Palestine. That's old news.They lost, get over it :P And I don't believe the USA are the ones "occupying" the area.
Palestine... Lost? They are being subjected daily to brute military force as well as dividing checkpoint setups, and burning/destroying farm lands. Also, you have the illegal wall, and several human rights vialoations. The number of palestinian children cilled during both intifadas are incredible! Children with rocks vs tanks= what do you think?

"Israel" is a radar for the USA in the middle-east. Its strategically placed and is of religious importance. You simply talk about this like its some small piece of buisness, well I tell you human lives are worth something to me, but apparently not to the israeli! Saying Palestine has lost is like saying the jews lost ww2, sure they suffered, but they are the victims deserving compassion, not one of the worlds largest armed forces controlling land under the blessing of the united states of america; The land of the "Free" and "Brave".

[Dreamer]

You simply talk about this like its some small piece of buisness, well I tell you human lives are worth something to me, but apparently not to the israeli! What is your perspective on Isreali civilians involved in incidents of palestinian suicide bombings?

[1OFMANY]

Unless you are Palestinian...GTFOI. Too many people are using someone else's plight to justify evil/murder. Don't be one of them. Does Israel do some horrendous shit ? yes. Do the Palestinian people need to find a resolution and stop doing horrendeous shit themselves? yes. Did a single nation ( arab/muslim included) come to the aid of palestine when they needed it most?? absolutely not. So dont come to the table with the woe is Palestine plight unless you yourself are from that region.Cause if you aren't, your just buying somone else's political babble and willingly playing pawn for someone else's game.

[Pkz]

What is your perspective on Isreali civilians involved in incidents of palestinian suicide bombings?
It is truly horrific! But the palestinians are judged on the basis of these actions as a whole and the Israeli are not, and then it comes to the "terrorist" label which is wrong when they are in a conflict where the Irsaeli are just as much if even more terrorist than the palestinians. Now I belive all voilence is horrendous, but I listened to an interview with a jewish father who ahd lost a daughter, which puts it all into perspective. He said that he hated those who killed his daughter, and that they were scum criminals, but he also said that he understood why such things happened. He talked about all the opression towards palestinians he had seen, and that he could understand that a small, small percent of these pressured people will utilize terrorism to their own gains because they are so pressured. He had seen women die in child-labor at checkpoints and was sad that things had to be this voilent. He said that both sides need to understand peace, but that the ball is in the Israeli's court. They just dont want to pick it up.





Pkz added to this post, 4 minutes and 7 seconds later...

Unless you are Palestinian...GTFOI. Too many people are using someone else's plight to justify evil/murder. Don't be one of them. Does Israel do some horrendous shit ? yes. Do the Palestinian people need to find a resolution and stop doing horrendeous shit themselves? yes. Did a single nation ( arab/muslim included) come to the aid of palestine when they needed it most?? absolutely not. So dont come to the table with the woe is Palestine plight unless you yourself are from that region.Cause if you aren't, your just buying somone else's political babble and willingly playing pawn for someone else's game.
And so by taking a stand you are not? Understand me here; Neither of us will understand that conflict unless we are one of those involved, but this does not make it illegitemate for me to take a stand where I see injustice. If you hate democracy, then fine, everyone can "gtfo". But you should gtfo yourself too ;)

I dont see this as "black and white". Abolishing the state Israel is not going to happen at this point. What has to happen is a fair deal between the two.





Pkz added to this post, 14 minutes and 54 seconds later...

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This happened very recently. Relevant.

[1OFMANY]

I dont see this as "black and white". Abolishing the state Israel is not going to happen at this point. What has to happen is a fair deal between the two.


I couldn't agree more. If 2 things in the world need to happen its 1) Israel get over itself and make peace with the palies..not the entire ME like they seem to think , but the Palestinians. And 2) The US needs to stop buying oil I mean 100% stop buying oil from the ME.

[iamnotspock]

The thing is Israel keeps trying to give them a state. It's in Israel's interest to create a Palestinian state and defuse this ongoing propoganda against them.

But Pali's want a state that encompasses West Bank and Gaza. Those two locations are not even connected! Moreover, the Palestinians elected a gov. dedicated to Israel's destruction. That is a stick in the eye.

Ultimately, they don't really want a state. They want a fight. This is why Arafat died an ultra-rich man. HIs money was invested all over the world. Running the conflict with Israel was hugely profitable in terms of donations. Current Pali groups are supported by the likes of Iran. It's not in the interest of Iran to make peace. Iran wants to keep the region destabilized, in order to have a front to invade Israel, without giving Israel an enemy to attack in return.

In fact, Sharon's strategy was likely to create the Palestinian state explicitly to have a nation to hold responsible for terrorist acts. Too bad his doctors did him in first.





iamnotspock added to this post, 4 minutes and 55 seconds later...

Today, Israel launched a test missile with the clear statement that it could carry "unconventional payloads". That means, nukes. If Israel is doing that, it is a clear sign that Iran is on their mind.

This is interesting, b/c if Iran gets a bomb, it can destroy Israel, and with it the entire Jewish presence in the MidEast and its only democracy. Israel could retaliate from a distributed nuclear platform, but the nation itself would be gone -- it is too small to withstand a nuclear attack. By contrast, Iran is huge, and Israel could not destroy Iran even with multiple nukes. The broader Arab presence and Muslim theocracies would hardly be damaged. And they would make a fortune on the spike in oil prices.

So, it seems to me, Palestine is small potatos compared to this nuclear stand-off. And it looks like Israel must strike pre-emptively -- just as in the Six Days War. That would set the world against them. But wait. The world is ** already** against them. When you consider that, it looks like they have nothing to lose by acting now, and everything to lose by waiting. I wonder what will happen?

[quentin]

Jordan and Syria are implicated in this as well. They need to allow the Palestinians to settle in their lands, instead of allowing them to be herded into such a small, overcrowded space between their countries and Israel. The Arab nations are huge hypocrites when it comes to the Palestinians. They're anti-Israel but not necessarily pro-Palestinian. For all their rhetoric against Israel, I don't see them doing anything positive for the Palestinians. I don't see the Arab nations welcoming the Palestinians into their homes.

Israel is just a convenient scapegoat for corrupt Arab governments to rail against and thus distract their own people from their own countries' problems by giving them a foreign devil to focus their hate on. When in fact the Arab people should be focusing their anger and hatred upon their own governments and leaders - not the U.S. and Israel.

[Rick]

Let's look at the maps and some interesting figures. Perhaps these will help put more perspective on the issue.

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If you question the sources, find alternate accurate official sources to refute them. I'm open minded.

[BadMojo]

Creating Israel was a giant mistake. That my opinion. (Sorry if I offended anyone)

[1OFMANY]

Creating Israel was a giant mistake. That my opinion. (Sorry if I offended anyone)

I disagree. How it has been handled since however, has been a frikkin fiasco! lol

[BadMojo]

I disagree. How it has been handled since however, has been a frikkin fiasco! lol
That's the mistake. You can't drive people from their homeland and expect them to accept it. Millions have died because of the decision to create Israel. Yes, it was created from a desire to do good, but instead a far greater evil was awoken.
Ergo, Israel was a mistake. Possibly the biggest in the 20th century - but that remains to be seen.

[1OFMANY]

I thinkmore HOW is was created that the creation of it. Jews and pallies lived together peacefully for YEARS prior. THey need to get their shit together IMO and make nice and make a deal to end the suffering. And by suffereing I mean inconvieniancing ME with things like high gas prices and boring news!! :P

[Ace1337]

how would you feel if someone came to your country and said: "This is our country now."
that's how Palestinians feel

[stasis]

Creating Israel was a giant mistake. That my opinion. (Sorry if I offended anyone)
But Israel exists now, and has existed for more than half a century. Perhaps it was a "giant mistake," I don't know, but it seems like it has been a mistake thoroughly made if that is to be the case. By this I mean the time of those who made the mistake is coming to an end; their descendants live today, do they not? Attempting to 'revert' this now-historical mistake would be no less than carrying out the same kind of mistake for the same reasons it was originally made, in my opinion. So I don't like the argument from mistake. Seems moot.

[BadMojo]

But Israel exists now, and has existed for more than half a century. Perhaps it was a "giant mistake," I don't know, but it seems like it has been a mistake thoroughly made if that is to be the case. By this I mean the time of those who made the mistake is coming to an end; their descendants live today, do they not? Attempting to 'revert' this now-historical mistake would be no less than carrying out the same kind of mistake for the same reasons it was originally made, in my opinion. So I don't like the argument from mistake. Seems moot.
True, and that is why I call it a mistake. It can't be redone. Israel can't cease to exist. The only solution is peace. But how to achieve that - God knows?

[thod]

There is going to be some state in that area of the levant. The question is what type of state. Lebanon is non functional being controlled by Syria with the occasional Israeli invasion. The west bank and gaza are simply not viable. I would like to see them merge into a new state with Israel. That way the area becomes more stable. The new state would have a reasonable size. It would have lots of Jews and Muslims but also a lot of Christians too. We would have a real state instead of a theocracy. A governement from all sections with all people, of whatever faith, having a vote. Its the attempt to have a jewish state that is causing the problem. Everywhere else states are defined by geography rather than religion and the more enlightened ones seperate state and religion.

[yondyr]

War is also a solution.. a guerilla one just lasts longer.

[1OFMANY]

They both need to get over themselves thinking "God told me to have the temple". What a joke. Just like ai told several insurrgents ( yes I said it in arabic) What were you thinking shooting at me! ?? God does not need your RPG ! lol

[lowtech redneck]

There is going to be some state in that area of the levant. The question is what type of state. Lebanon is non functional being controlled by Syria with the occasional Israeli invasion. The west bank and gaza are simply not viable. I would like to see them merge into a new state with Israel. That way the area becomes more stable. The new state would have a reasonable size. It would have lots of Jews and Muslims but also a lot of Christians too. We would have a real state instead of a theocracy. A governement from all sections with all people, of whatever faith, having a vote. Its the attempt to have a jewish state that is causing the problem. Everywhere else states are defined by geography rather than religion and the more enlightened ones seperate state and religion.

More likely such an attempt would erupt in an ongoing nightmare of communal violence and guerilla warfare.





lowtech redneck added to this post, 22 minutes and 15 seconds later...

Let's look at the maps and some interesting figures. Perhaps these will help put more perspective on the issue.

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If you question the sources, find alternate accurate official sources to refute them. I'm open minded.

Well, for starters most of India, Sri Lanka, the Philippines, and coastal West Africa east of Sierra Leone are not predominantly Muslim, and most Muslims do not speak Arabic. Also, The global Islamic preoccupation with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict may be retarded, but the fact that Israel claims land outside its internationally recognized borders that is already occupied by non-citizens, makes the expansionist label accurate (albeit misleading). That said, Palestinian society has become a fundamentally sick society that neither has realistic demands nor is capable of living up to its end of any agreement. Given the fact that Arabs can live very well (albeit as second-class citizens) in Israel while Jews could not do the same within a Palestinian entity (or any other Arab country they historically lived in) limits the amount of sympathy I have for the Palestinians, though they were historically wronged.

[Colette]

Everywhere else states are defined by geography rather than religion and the more enlightened ones seperate state and religion.

That is absolutely untrue. Start with the Balkans, and work your way West through Europe. Oh, and try not to be as annoying as Michael Palin when you do it :p

[Provoker]

True, and that is why I call it a mistake. It can't be redone. Israel can't cease to exist. The only solution is peace. But how to achieve that - God knows?

According to realists, stability can be achieved through a balance of power. The Cold War is often seen as a Bipolar system with the US and allies and the Soviet Union and allies. There was balance. There was symmetry. This, coupled with mutually assured destruction, is why the Cold War never turned hot. To achieve peace Palestine must up the ante. The country ought to align itself with countries like China, Cuba, North Korea, Venezuela, and Iran. Both Socialist or just Anti-US-imperialist countries will help give Palestine the support it needs. I think where there is symmetry there is greater stability. But as long as Israel overpowers Palestine with pure military might Palestian will be subject to its wrath.

[lowtech redneck]

According to realists, stability can be achieved through a balance of power. The Cold War is often seen as a Bipolar system with the US and allies and the Soviet Union and allies. There was balance. There was symmetry. This, coupled with mutually assured destruction, is why the Cold War never turned hot. To achieve peace Palestine must up the ante. The country ought to align itself with countries like China, Cuba, North Korea, Venezuela, and Iran. Both Socialist or just Anti-US-imperialist countries will help give Palestine the support it needs. I think where there is symmetry there is greater stability. But as long as Israel overpowers Palestine with pure military might Palestian will be subject to its wrath.

Realism assumes rational, unitary, and (in terms of goals and methods) functionally undifferentiated actors. In what ways is Palestine a rational, unitary actor that is functionally undifferentiated from Israel?

[Provoker]

Realism assumes rational, unitary, and (in terms of goals and methods) functionally undifferentiated actors. In what ways is Palestine a rational, unitary actor that is functionally undifferentiated from Israel?

Redneck, pay close attention to what I wrote. You've conflated my normative claim with a descriptive one. They're quite different in nature. If you want to know in what ways Palestine is (implying description) rational, monolithic, unitary, etc compared to Israel then do your own research. My response was a normative one as I was responding to the question of 'how peace can be achieved'. What Palestine is doing implies description and is obviously not bringing peace. The solution I proffered is a prescriptive on. Perhaps you can disagree that this is a viable alternative, but that can't be logically done by conflating it with what Palestine is doing.

[Colette]

Redneck, pay close attention to what I wrote. You've conflated my normative claim with a descriptive one. They're quite different in nature. If you want to know in what ways Palestine is (implying description) rational, monolithic, unitary, etc compared to Israel then do your own research. My response was a normative one as I was responding to the question of 'how peace can be achieved'. What Palestine is doing implies description and is obviously not bringing peace. The solution I proffered is a prescriptive on. Perhaps you can disagree that this is a viable alternative, but that can't be logically done by conflating it with what Palestine is doing.

Did I miss something here? Palestine is now a state?

*Goes away to check RSS newsfeeds*

[lowtech redneck]

The solution I proffered is a prescriptive on. Perhaps you can disagree that this is a viable alternative, but that can't be logically done by conflating it with what Palestine is doing.

Realism rests on certain assumptions about the characteristics of states and international politics. If those assumptions are incorrect, then realism as a means of preserving peace is a dead letter. The present characteristics of Palestine is very relevant if one is to consider the viability of a prescriptive solution based on realism.

[xanodel]

The problem is there exists no urge to negotiate on either side, and if I were Israel I wouldn't negotiate with Palestine either. Not for ideological reasons, but in a game theory negotiation scenario, Israel does hold the greater power. Palestine's main arsenal there would be the suicide bombing and some aid from a fairly divided arab middle east for support. Other than the fact Israel is regionally the one with the nuclear capabilities (and weapons if I'm correct) with the military juggernaut USA backing it. There's just no incentive to negotiate, because the negotiation table is inherently leaning toward unilateral domination.

[BadMojo]

Well, all in all. Israel should be ashamed of what they are doing. A few rocket from some fanatical dickweeds does not give them the right to launch an entire air strike on civilians (and a few militants). They do not have the right to cut of the supplies to an entire population. Desperate people makes desperate choices. I still can't believe that the western world supports a country (or state) that does commit so many crimes.

[iamnotspock]

why does Israel have any responsibility to support Palestinians who want them dead? let the rich Arabs take care of their cousins.

[sonofone]

why does Israel have any responsibility to support Palestinians who want them dead? let the rich Arabs take care of their cousins.:thumbsdown::thumbsdown:

Israel is responsibly because they are illegally (under International laws) occupying and building illegal Jewish only settlements on Palestinian land. In addition, not all Palestinians want Israelis dead, but it is understandable why they are angry. Image, if you can, that Canada is occupying America (if you're American, otherwise replace America with whatever country you live in.) and mandates that no American shall build a home on his or her land without a permit from the Canadian government, which is almost never issued. If you build a home without the Canadian governments permission, Canada will demolish your home and build a Canadian only settlement on it. How would you feel towards Canada? Now, lets take it one step further because lord knows the Israelis have. Now, imagine you live in a dry climate and the majority of the water under your land belongs to the Canadian settlers. It is hot outside and you don't have water to drink, but you look up and at the top of the hill, where your home and farm was and there is a Canadian only settlement that has so much extra water that their grass is a nice dark green. What are your feelings towards Canada now? Lets continue; The Canadian government has felt like it is necessary to build a massive wall to imprison you. That wall isn't build along the internationally agreed border, but instead is build, at some points, several miles in, cutting you off from even more land. And lets not forget, what is now Israel was Palestine. So, because of Israel, the Palestinian people were either forced into Hell (the Gaza strip), a west bank prison where all the good things about it are stolen and turned over to Israel, or forced to be refugees.

Lastly, they aren't all cousins, dip. Palestinians probably originate from the area we now call Greece, and moved to Palestine awhile ago. Now, yes, there has probably been some mixing going on, and it is easy to call everyone in the middle east ARABs, but that isn't the case.

[yondyr]

Nicely said, sonofone (cept for the 'dip' :) )..great analogy...should have a few North Americans shivering, bringing it closer to home.

[Riverratt]

I don't know why the Palestinians hate Israel so bad, if they are upset about the West bank and Gaza, they should take it up with Egypt and Jordan..After all, they started a few wars with Israel, AND LOST...

Why don't the Palestinians go march in Jordan, or Cairo, to complain about their lost land to them...the countries whose military LOST the wars in the first place.

My solution, is to let Israel "get it over with" and stop dragging their feet, the Europeans will never like them, so stop trying to curry favor with them.

If the Palestinians WANT a war, give it too them in spades. Remember the Palestinians elected HAMAS to be their governing body, so they are not as innocent as they portray themselves to be..

Israel needs to stop holding back, and get it over with.

[BadMojo]

I don't know why the Palestinians hate Israel so bad, if they are upset about the West bank and Gaza, they should take it up with Egypt and Jordan..After all, they started a few wars with Israel, AND LOST...

Why don't the Palestinians go march in Jordan, or Cairo, to complain about their lost land to them...the countries whose military LOST the wars in the first place.

My solution, is to let Israel "get it over with" and stop dragging their feet, the Europeans will never like them, so stop trying to curry favor with them.

If the Palestinians WANT a war, give it too them in spades. Remember the Palestinians elected HAMAS to be their governing body, so they are not as innocent as they portray themselves to be..

Israel needs to stop holding back, and get it over with.
I'll nominate this post as the most stupid post anno 2008.

Meaning...

Sure... just leave what remains of your land and simply leave. I'm sure everybody would love that. And I'm sure the whole middle east would love it too.

Why not just kill the entire middle east for the sake of freedom and humanity? Then the problem would be over!

In case you didn't notice; I was being sarcastic.

*Yes mods, I've been a bad boy... I'll go to my corner now* :irked:

ps. @ sonofone
Good post :thumbsup:

[Riverratt]

What is stupid about it? Its the truth. As a history buff, I can assure you, that if you truly want peace in the middle east, the best way to achieve that goal, is to let them fight it out, till SOMEONE WINS...I don't really care who wins, as long as their is a clear winner.

They HATE each other with a passion over their, all these peace deals do is prolong the misery, and put off the inevitable war....it has been dragging on for 50 years, with NO end in sight...

Arm all sides, and let them FIGHT IT OUT.....

Then, and ONLY then, will their be peace.

[yondyr]

Arm both sides with what, nuclear weapons? The fallout hardly respects boundaries.

[Exile]

What Israel is doing to the Palestinians is the same as European settlers did to the native's of their new colonies back in the last century. Israel is a US buffer state against Arab nationalism, justified by a religious, racist, expansionist and genocidal ideology: Zionism. Every civilised human being on this planet should unequivocally oppose the Israeli state and support the right of the Palestinians to fight back against the colonisers. We're told "oh what about Isralei victims of suicide bombs" - how about someone gets the stats for deaths of Palestinians caused byt he IDF each year, compared to stats for Israeli's killed by "terrorists". Resisting occupation is not terorrism. The Israeli's who suffer form terrorism need to blame the real cause - their genocidal government which using them as a battering ram to wipe out an entire nationality.

[yondyr]

It would be interesting to view a war from our armchairs if we could convince the financial and arms suppliers to the Middle East to butt out. Sorta like what I call the Coliseum Complex where we stop to view an accident, are mesmerised by gore and have that secret inner yearning to shout 'Jump!' to that vacillating soul on the rooftop. :)

[Riverratt]

Arm both sides with what, nuclear weapons? The fallout hardly respects boundaries.

Nope, If I truly had my way, it would be rifles, machine guns, and hand grenades..

That way, when the war was finally over, NONE OF THEM WOULD WANT TO EVER FIGHT AGAIN.

They would truly want peace. Right now, most of them want war. So let the rest of the world get out of the way, and let them fight it out.





Riverratt added to this post, 12 minutes and 41 seconds later...

Every civilised human being on this planet should unequivocally oppose the Israeli state and support the right of the Palestinians to fight back against the colonisers. .

THAT'S RIGHT!!

Let them "strike back" and when they do, they should not be surprised when an IDF 155mm artillery shells start crashing down in their homes, and Hellfire missiles open their vehicles up.

After all....If a people is too stupid to see that launching a crude katusha rocket into an Israeli housewife's garden, should not be deterred by the fact that when israel strikes back DOZENS of them die...

Don't let that be a deterrent! KEEP KILLING THE ZIONIST PIGS!!!!! ALLAH AKBAR ALLAH AKBAR!!!

We will continue to fight this "proxy way" for the other Arab Nations that repeatedly got their asses kicked by puny little Israel, and are too scared of the zionist to do their own dirty work themselves....ALLAH AKBAR!!!

I would be all for their cause, but they insist on such killing and violence, they even send their KIDS, to do their dirty work for the cowardly adults....

Watch some palestinian TV...It is no wonder they are so full of hate.

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Yea, a VERY PEACEFUL PEOPLE they are.

I am not very gung ho, I just want to see the killing, STOP. No "peace plan" has ever brought peace to the area, all sides have endured centuries of warfare....Time for us, as a world, to stop "breaking them up" when they get into these little fights..

I think that if the major powers sat both, the Palestine Leadership and the Israelis down, and told them, that if they would be no more "outside interference" from the rest of the world, and "what happens HAPPENS" I would bet the Palestinians would suddenly become peaceful.

Major conflicts that are "not fully completed" tend to simmer, and REALLY EXPLODE at one point, killing MILLIONS AND MILLIONS..

Case in point, WW1. WW1 ended prematurely, the German surrendered, BUT as a nation, they where not beaten, and we all know what happened about20 years after WW1 ended.

After WW2, the Europeans had NO stomach for war, they abhor it. Maybe we should see if letting the "big one" happen in the middle east would have a similar result??

One thing is clear, the longer the "big one" is put off, the WORSE it will be for all of us.

We are only delaying the inevitable.

[BadMojo]

@ Riverratt
Has it ever occurred to you that other superpowers may be watching what little Israel is doing? I seriously doubt that China, Russia and Europe would let Israel pound the Palestinians without consequences.

And if I may quote Einstein:
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

The funny thing is that with a bonehead like George W. Bush at the steering wheel, the total war could come. There are those people who believe that peace is only to be found after war. Luckily this didn't come true during the cold war. I'm sure it would have been very quiet and "peaceful" now if that was the case.

[iamnotspock]

I honestly don't think the Chinese give a rat's ass about the Palestinians. Jews are generally admired by Chinese and China welcomed Jewish refugees from WWII. The Chinese also like a conflict that generates business, and if Israel will every so often wipe out the Egyptian air force, or destroy the Syrian army (an oxymoron), well, that is good business for China.

Europe, OTOH, has a long history of general Jew-hatred. We are talking centuries of pogroms, ghettos, Inquisitions, etc, culminating in the Holocaust. It is no surprise to me at all that Europeans believe Zionism is genocide -- an absolutely absurd position -- while ignoring their own real genocide as recently as the 90's in Yugoslavia. Arabs at least are clear that they hate Jews, but the thing about Europeans is that they claim to be honest brokers -- they don't admit to their own blatant biases.

In any case, nobody is gonna save the Palestinians from anything, least of all themselves, because nobody actually cares. It's just a way for them to express their hatred of Jews in a socially acceptable form.

So long as Palestinians run around with terrorist groups, get in cahoots with the likes of Saddam Hussein, Iran, Quadaffi, etc., strap bombs to their children and blow them up on Israel's buses, and generally behave like 3rd century Turks, no civilized nation will lend them any support. That's the way it's been for half a century, and I don't see any change at all on the horizon.

But let us suppose, as an exercise, that the Arabs launched a successful offensive against Israel, and won. Do you think America would stand by while Muslims backed by Syria, Iran, Jordan, et al took over Jerusalem and expelled Jews? It is not only the American Jews who would lead the war cry, but the American Christians. And that is a serious political block to be reckoned with. No American President could fail to take drastic action.

On the other hand, suppose Israel launched an offensive and took back the West Bank, and expelled all the Arabs and Palestinians. What would happen? The U.N. would pass resolution one million and twelve denouncing Israel, and some Frenchies in blue helmets would show up to monitor things until someone shot them, at which time they would all run back home, like they always do. I hardly think the EU would raise an army to save some Palestinians.

So my conclusion is that sooner or later Israel is going to retake the West Bank and that will be that.

[BadMojo]

Consequences can also be financial

[sonofone]

Riverratt, you claim to be a history buff but you haven't demonstrated that so far. Please educate yourself on the subject before continuing. I think you'll find some of your points are quite invalid.

BadMojo, I find it interesting that you quoted a Zionist.

anyway... I think they should have a one state solution and let democracy solve the problem ;)

[BadMojo]

BadMojo, I find it interesting that you quoted a Zionist.

anyway... I think they should have a one state solution and let democracy solve the problem ;)
Hehe, well not all people (including Jews, Muslims, Christians, etc....) are complete idiots. Some actually have got it right.

I don't have any solution to what's going on between Israel and Palestine - and I would be a moron if I claimed I did. But i do know that war isn't a proper solution.:)

[Riverratt]

Riverratt, you claim to be a history buff but you haven't demonstrated that so far. Please educate yourself on the subject before continuing. I think you'll find some of your points are quite invalid.


Nope, they are very valid, when their are SERIOUS axes to grind (not just typical bickering between nations) Wars tend to drag on and on, until someone DECISIVELY WINS.

For example, look what happened in Yugoslavia. The Korean War, that is still going on, they have just been in a 50 year cease fire. China and Taiwan.

Also look back at the centuries of warfare all over Europe, they was wars all over the place their, near constant fighting somewhere till the "WW1 and WW2" they finally had enough. And now it is doubtful they would even defend themselves if attacked.

Wars tend to simmer for generations, than BLOW UP. if outside forces act, to "stop the violence" all it does in drag out the suffering and prolongs the violence. until the "outsiders" have had enough of their own dead, and LEAVE. than the war starts up all over..

Vietnam, and Yugoslavia is an example of that, just ones that I can think of right off the top of my head, I am CERTAIN they are more.

The UN "peace keepers" have never succeeded in "keeping the peace" anywhere they have been sent. heck I can even remember massacres being committed right in front of a group of dutch peacekeepers and they standing by, allowing it to happen.


When wars, end DECISIVELY, for the most part, the killing soon stops, and peace comes.

[BadMojo]

When wars, end DECISIVELY, for the most part, the killing soon stops, and peace comes.
But there have been plenty of wars.

[sonofone]

Riverratt, I'm going to try and sum up my issues with your posts because it would take too long to go back and point out each issue I had with them. Plus, I'm not sure if you're just posting to get a rise out of people and just joking around. so...

Starting with you first post, the Six Day War was started by Israel on June 5, 1969. You say, "If the Palestinians WANT a war..." and I'm not sure if you mean a few Palestinians or the entire population?

Back to the history buff comment. Please give me an example of an issue that was solved in a contemporary middle east setting by "letting them fight it out?" That WWI and WWII example was great if it applied to this situation at all, but one must remember that Israel is only like Germany in a few ways. Also, speaking to your, clearly, wide body of knowledge on the subject; they don't all hate each other. Some do and some don't. There are Israeli and Palestinian groups set up to connect with each other and there are groups set up to kill each other.

you said, "Arm all sides, and let them Fight It out"

Does this mean that we (America) have to help Palestine become tied for the second largest air force in the world? Because we've spent tens of billions on arming Israel. So, you would suggest that we spend billions arming Palestine? Or do we take Israel's weapons away and give them both rifles, machine guns, and hand grenades? Seriously?

And what was with the videos? OMG... you found a video of extremist opinions...on the internet...omg...omg...omg. That's all I can say. It's amazing, with this modern technology you can find a video of just about anything and there are still people out there that feel like they can support a wide generalized point by linking a video. Well done.

In the spirit of sharing videos:
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. - I find this video interesting. It's a trailer for Jesus Camp but with Arabic subtitles. Now, I wouldn't say those people speak for all American's but some idiot in, say, Iran might.

Lastly, what do you think would happen to the United States if we stood back and let Israel use OUR weaponry to DESTROY the Palestinian people? Come on, really, do you think it's that easy? In all reality, the Israeli government will continue to use steady force matched with a few conflicts to slowly move or kill the Palestinian people until on day its just Israel.

[Mr Galt]

I have grown up in a largely Jewish family. They are a bunch of blind Zionists. Needless to say, I do not have a high opinion of Jews. The Middle East problem is not the fault of one side, but rather everybody. Both the Muslims and Jews seem to think they have the right to whatever they want over there, and are willing to kill each other for it. I just hope the US stops choosing sides and leaves the it all alone.

[lowtech redneck]

Starting with you first post, the Six Day War was started by Israel on June 5, 1969. You say, "If the Palestinians WANT a war..." and I'm not sure if you mean a few Palestinians or the entire population?

There are Israeli and Palestinian groups set up to connect with each other and there are groups set up to kill each other.


The Six Day war was a pre-emptive attack undertaken in the context of an imminent threat. What exactly was Israel supposed to do with huge armies massed at their borders, an economic blockade, and rhetoric threatening invasion? Also remember that Israel was not occupying the Gaza strip, West Bank, and Golan Heights at this time, and there were no peace deals being offered. This was also barely a generation after the Holocaust as well as the ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands of Jews from Arab countries following the 1948 war. To simply say that Israel started the 1967 war would be highly misleading.

I'm emphasizing the Jewish side because it has been discounted recently, but I agree that Zionism is bullshit (though its damage is only localized and pales in comparision to Islamism and other ideologies) and that the Palestinians have been screwed both now and in the recent past-I just don't think either side deserves the unmitigated scorn heaped upon them by partisans of either side. A good, professional site to go to for the Palestinian perspective is the Foundation for Middle East Peace, at To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I also agree that Palestinians (and Israelis) are not homogenous, but roughly 45% of Palestinians DID vote for Hamas, and Fatah's commitment to a two-state solution is suspect at best. Israeli extremism on the magnitude of Hamas is not yet present in such large numbers. Kahanist(sp) and parties seeking the ethnic cleansing of Palestinian populations still constitute a comparatively small (albeit growing) segment of the population.

[ginandsour]

Well, all in all. Israel should be ashamed of what they are doing. A few rocket from some fanatical dickweeds does not give them the right to launch an entire air strike on civilians (and a few militants). They do not have the right to cut of the supplies to an entire population. Desperate people makes desperate choices. I still can't believe that the western world supports a country (or state) that does commit so many crimes.

I agree, however:

Given the level of attacks Israel has sustained since inception, the response from the Israeli government has been relatively tame compared to how other Westernized nations might react.

One of the problems inherent to the conflict is that you have different strains of fanaticism claiming responsibility for attacking Israel, when really the bulk of Palestinians want peace. Why elect Hamas if they want peace? Because Hamas offered stability (they have yet to deliver, really) and something other than lame duck leadership and corruption of the PLO.