Nice guys finish last = complete myth

[blatant]

Nice guys don't finish last. Nice guys never finish last, actually. And I mean the genuinely nice ones who don't try to befriend you in hopes that you'll sleep with them one day.

What happens is that mediocre guys actually finish last.

I have seen countless numbers of genuinely sweet and friendly (and not all that attractive physically) guys get girlfriends (friends ask THEM out sometimes!).

I've also met players who hooked up with a new girl every week and acted like the sweetest, most polite people I have ever met. They weren't jerks at all. They acted as "nice guys" and got exactly what they wanted.

If you're a man and no one's into you, then I am sorry to say this (not really): You are not a nice guy. You are a mediocre guy.

Somehow though, people would rather ignore the entire truth of the matter and instead blame things on everybody else. While this is easy to do, it is also ineffective and doesn't begin to solve the problem (e.g.: you work at it).

I see it happen all too often. The inept idiot blames the other party entirely, despite the fact that he's the one with all the defects in personality and appearances. What foolish, foolish self-delusion and weakness.

Disagree? or Agree? Anyone?

[Jinxu]

Disagree? or Agree? Anyone?

I'm gonna answer with a picture. This is what I consider is the "mythical" nice guy:

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

You decide. Is he nice or mediocre? I think there's a disagreement on what we think is meant by "nice". Yeah, I would agree that women want a nice guy just not "nice" like the guy above.

[Kemmler]

I once said I'm a nice guy friend-zone material because I can never get girls interested in me and I usually end up friend zoned...

She told me I was cold, rude, closed, seeming uninterested and when a girl would flirt with me I would notice/would walk away...

I said that I'm acting nice, charming and flirty with girls everytime!

She started laughing until tears came out of her eyes... -.-

[Corrosive]

Yeah, I would agree that women want a nice guy just not "nice" like the guy above.

What's wrong with this guy? That looks like one of my friends, but maybe girls see something different?

[acyckowski]

There's a common stereotype that if you're genuinely Nice, you must be shy and timid, and that if you're not shy and timid, you're only pretending to be nice.

This, of course, is crap.

Genuinely nice people who are also outgoing and assertive generally do very well, not just in relationships but in business and wherever else they interact with people.

So, yes, I agree, "nice guys finish last" is a convenient excuse for people who would rather not try than to try and fail. Sounds pretty mediocre to me.

[vern]

I fear mediocrity and intimacy and I also require clarity.
Is long term companionship or a girlfriend a prize worth winning?
Are all of these so called nice guys incapable of befriending people for sex? Do they hang on tirelessly proving their noble intentions rather than putting out?
If so perhaps they really do finish last and ought to.

[MissENFP]

Perhaps it is all a matter of opinion. But I would have to agree that it is the nice guys that tend to get taken faster. All of my "nice" guy friends tend to get into relationships faster than those who are a little more aggressive. Obviously their niceness isn't the only thing that attracts girls to them, but it sure helps.
If you are a man who is kind, attentive, respectful, and opens doors for a girl, I guarantee that you will stand out from the crowd.

[JohnDoe]

Perhaps it is all a matter of opinion. But I would have to agree that it is the nice guys that tend to get taken faster. All of my "nice" guy friends tend to get into relationships faster than those who are a little more aggressive. Obviously their niceness isn't the only thing that attracts girls to them, but it sure helps.
If you are a man who is kind, attentive, respectful, and opens doors for a girl, I guarantee that you will stand out from the crowd.

Its pretty easy to get into a relationship as a nonagressive person person with a nice personality if you say yes to the first person who asks you out or acts interested in you. Not so easy if you actually want to be a bit selective. Sorry blatant I have to agree with alpha here... you want things in life you have to be assertive.

[curiousgeorge01]

I've also met players who hooked up with a new girl every week and acted like the sweetest, most polite people I have ever met. They weren't jerks at all. They acted as "nice guys" and got exactly what they wanted.



Honestly it depends on what you mean by "nice." And what kind of girls did they hook up with??

[Mogura]

If you are a man who is kind, attentive, respectful, and opens doors for a girl, I guarantee that you will stand out from the crowd.

I'm sorry. Are we talking about planet Earth here?

Nice guys don't finish last. Nice guys don't finish at all...

[bmartinl]

blatant. You sound like a young person still clouded by stereotypical ideas about people, and also overly concerned with pointing out other people's weaknesses (let me guess, you've never been in a real relationship). Also, you don't seem to be aware of those many mediocre people out there who get lots of action just from their physical appearance. Every person is an individual, growing and maturing in their own way, and to judge them as "mediocre" just because they are not good at attracting women is just a weird idea. Yes the point of life is to procreate, but if the only reason to live is to reproduce as many times as possible, then we should just lock up all the most attractive women in a warehouse and keep them pregnant 100% of the time. Oh but wait, there IS more to life than having "game" and getting laid at will. My looks are about average or slightly above. I've had times in my life where I was successful with women, and times when I wasn't. I've had times of mediocrity, and success, quite independent of whether I was getting laid or not, having to do with my personal growth, education, life philosophy and attitude, etc. The picture is far more complicated than you seem to appreciate.

[SelfMadeBum]

Generally I think women are attracted to Alpha male types who have a certain amount of influence over their environment.

[dalidaisy]

I don't generally date "nice" guys, but I also do not date types like alphawolf. The types I like are somewhere in between, borrowing traits from each. Does that mean I'm dating the mediocre guys? If so, then they don't always finish last either...

[coffeeholic]

I believe that nice people in general are more likely not to succeed. Which is why INTJs are generally sucessfull...we dont have empathy dragging behind us.

[Cygnus]

I'm not regularly accused of being "nice". I did when I was younger and it was always in combination with "let's be friends", consequently whenever a woman calls me nice I automatically conclude she is not interested.

"Nice" in people seems to be the collective sum of desirable charatceristics, though something is missing to actually make them desirable.

I believe that nice people in general are more likely not to succeed. Which is why INTJs are generally sucessfull...we dont have empathy dragging behind us.

I disagree. I am empathic, just not necessarily sympathetic. I tend to identify with and understand another's situation, feelings, and motives.

[Jinxu]

What's wrong with this guy? That looks like one of my friends, but maybe girls see something different?

Well, what do girls say about your friend?

[Corrosive]

Well, what do girls say about your friend?

Wait a second, I think I asked you a question first...
Anyway, since I'm what you would call a "nice" guy, I'll answer.

The friend that I know who is similar to the example in the diagram doesn't interact much with girls, partly because his personality doesn't mix well with the mainstream female. I mean, he'll go out of his way to do something for someone else, regardless of who they are. He's pretty intelligent, too, and he'll generally take time out of his schedule to explain something with some exceptions. Anyway, what does this have to do what girls say about him? They say, "Oh, he's a sweet guy, but it's hard to initiate conversation with him," or "He's too smart/too intimidating/too busy all the time."

I guess it varies from person to person like others in the thread have mentioned, but if I were a girl, I'd look for someone like my friend. That's what I like about my girlfriend, because although she's an INTJ, she possesses many of the same personality traits that I do. Who knows, he'll eventually meet someone who likes him for who he is!

[thref23]

The "nice guy" is the male equivalent of a slut.

In relationships, women are inclined to look for emotional fulfillment first and sex second. Men are inclined to look for sex first and emotional fulfillment second. Yes, I know there are exceptions to the rule on both sides.

Women get used for sex under the false pretense that they might also get emotional fulfillment out of the deal. Men get used for emotional fulfillment out of the false pretense that they might be getting sex out of the deal.

[Jinxu]

Wait a second, I think I asked you a question first...
Anyway, since I'm what you would call a "nice" guy, I'll answer.

The friend that I know who is similar to the example in the diagram doesn't interact much with girls, partly because his personality doesn't mix well with the mainstream female. I mean, he'll go out of his way to do something for someone else, regardless of who they are. He's pretty intelligent, too, and he'll generally take time out of his schedule to explain something with some exceptions. Anyway, what does this have to do what girls say about him? They say, "Oh, he's a sweet guy, but it's hard to initiate conversation with him," or "He's too smart/too intimidating/too busy all the time."

I thought so, your friend is definitely a "nice" guy. I asked because what woman think about a guy can tell you what type of guy he is. The way his act is a huge sign and often time women will use code words like "sweet" or "very nice" to describe a "nice guy." I have a friend like that too. What's wrong, beside the trait listed in the picture, is that most "nice guys" don't know how to be sexy. Most girls will tell you that they like confidence in a guys. Which is what a lot of nice guys lack. What's more is that they don't know how to act around women. In a conversation, most women like guys to do stuff like being playful, joking around, teasing them, being goofy sometimes, maybe even act a little cocky in a joking way, etc. It's stuff like that, that really turns women on because it create sexual friction. Most nice guys don't do or do not know how to do things like that. Most of them act nice and polite around women which doesn't create any friction at all.

Are you really a "nice guy" (genuinely nice) or a "nice guy!" (picture above)? Most women really do prefer a genuinely nice guy. The difference is that women is sexually attracted to one type and repulsed by the other type.

P.S. I've just given you a big secret about women.

[Kris]

Many 'nice' guys do finish last. Many of them are not mediocre. Its nothing to do with possessing positive traits like compassion, understanding, courtesy, manners, etc but a lack of balancing traits like confidence, assertiveness and for lack of a better word strength (not physical).

The stereotypical nice guy, who always finishes last may well be a complex and fascinating individual, but most people don't care because he is a pansy that lets himself be a doormat for others.

In a career sense they do what they are told and constantly get skipped over for promotions/advancement no matter how proficient they are. In a social sense, they give what others ask but rarely receive and often end up getting used. In a romantic sense, many women see them more akin to boys than men and most women don't want to date a boy.

[Night Runner]

This world is not set up for nice people. Show me a successful and happy nice guy and I'll show you a guy who happened to be very, very lucky.

[identity]

What's wrong with this guy? That looks like one of my friends, but maybe girls see something different?

This guy is the anti-male. He offers no challenge in courtship. He's not a fun guy to be around. He might be intelligent, but that's about all he has going for him.

[True Rune]

Most "nice guys" tend to be angry sex obsessed pricks on the inside.

[jcb]

The "nice guy" is the male equivalent of a slut.

In relationships, women are inclined to look for emotional fulfillment first and sex second. Men are inclined to look for sex first and emotional fulfillment second. Yes, I know there are exceptions to the rule on both sides.

Women get used for sex under the false pretense that they might also get emotional fulfillment out of the deal. Men get used for emotional fulfillment out of the false pretense that they might be getting sex out of the deal.

or maybe, in a relationship, both men and women are looking for the same thing, but going about it in two different ways.

perhaps all roads lead to rome, but the traveller isn't aware of which road they're even on, whether they even want to go to rome, or in fact, what rome is.

[Ender]

I'm afraid the words "mediocre" or "average" seem to be used to explain away things; to find ways to put certain people above or below others. Frankly, everyone is an individual (surprise!) and no matter how much you study them, you're always going to find marks of individuality; idiosyncrasies, quirks, whatever you want to call it. So the idea of calling certain people "mediocre" to begin with doesn't even make sense. Not to mention the fact that the term "nice guy" is entirely subjective to a woman's preference; what one woman might call a "prick," another may call a "knight in shining armor."

I think some clarification of definitions is necessary before you can even begin to argue such a thing.

I see it happen all too often. The inept idiot blames the other party entirely, despite the fact that he's the one with all the defects in personality and appearances. What foolish, foolish self-delusion and weakness.
And honestly, what is this? There's no such thing as "defects" in personality and appearance unless you're talking about someone having a serious mental/physical health problem.

[MissENFP]

I'm sorry. Are we talking about planet Earth here?

Nice guys don't finish last. Nice guys don't finish at all...

Hmm...I'm pretty sure we are talking planet earth. Last I checked I'm not from venus no matter what they say. We all move in different circles and enjoy different ways of life. We all perceive things differently. Perhaps in your circle 'nice' guys don't finish first, but in mine, they rock.

Of course, there is always the question of, what is 'nice'? I don't think we really have a baseline because we all have differing opinions. What might be nice for one person isn't going to be nice for everybody...

[AceBrown]

These are traits of the stereotypical "nice guy".

Traits

-Is nervous around women.
-Is shy in social situations.
-Is intimidated by women and feels like he needs to impress them.
-Doesn't know what to say to women (usually linked into trying to impress women).
-Is too nice to women, like he would be to his grandmother.
-Calls women too often, not allowing them to miss him.
-Tells women that he has 'feelings' for them too early.
-Behaves submissively or weakly around women.
-Tends to accepts a woman's demands, just so she will spend time with him or continue talking to him.
-Becomes a 'doormat' for women and puts his own needs aside.
-Listens to all of woman's problems and discusses them in the way her girlfriends would.
-Gives away his power to women, and allows women to become the 'boss'.
-Always seems to ask women what they want to do, instead of being a man and taking the lead.

These type of "nice guys" finish last. That's why some INTJ males have trouble with approaching women or relationships now. Most INTJ males are/was socially awkward so when they see a female they want, they typically fall into this role because they don't know how to conversate with women and express their interest. This is important because men are generally expected to approach women.

[Jinxu]

These are traits of the stereotypical "nice guy".


What do you think a "nice guy" like what you described have to do to become more successful with women?

[fatkattykat]

I think there is some truth to the saying that "nice guys" finish last (except when they actually "get" some lol). But I think the cocky, arrogant ones are likely to get divorced first! :p

I think that Jinxu is on target. A lot of stereotypical "nice guys" are genuinely good people and have good traits, but don't really know how to be anything but "nice." If all you can offer me is just being "nice," then that really is not something special. And then there is the confidence factor. A lot of "nice" guys fail to actually ask the girl out, then they get into the "friends zone." However, I do respect that it takes a LOT of bravado to ask a girl out. My boyfriend sent me flowers on Valentines day because he had a crush on me. But he was extremely nervous about it. I see that as one of the bravest things anyone has ever done, because I know how hard rejection stings. And that makes him super sexy! :)

Honestly, if timed right, a so-called "mediocre" guy may actually spark the girl's interest if he just plain asks her out. The worst she can say is no, and while it hurts, at least you don't have to wonder "what if." Or have to deal with the chronic rejection when she calls you up at 3 AM about how the cocky asshole who DID ask her out is treating her poorly.

[Prunesquallor]

Um, most people are mediocre. They still get laid, but yeah, most self-identified "nice guys" who complain about not getting dates aren't as special as they think they are. They might still find someone eventually, but it's not a huge shocker that they haven't, as difficult as that is for them to accept.

[alphawolf]

Um, most people are mediocre. They still get laid, but yeah, most self-identified "nice guys" who complain about not getting dates aren't as special as they think they are. They might still find someone eventually, but it's not a huge shocker that they haven't, as difficult as that is for them to accept.

If most people are mediocre, then mediocre people have plenty of fucking choice.

[AceBrown]

What do you think a "nice guy" like what you described have to do to become more successful with women?

Okay, I think a "nice guy" has to develop a comfort zone around women and not be afraid to let a woman know you're interested. Experience is the best way to develop that comfort zone IMO.

I'll use myself as an example since I was sorta like the "nice guy" in high school.

I raised as the only male with 3 other females (mom, 2 sisters). Now even though I was raised around women, I was shy around girls my age; especially girls I had crushes on (luckily, I didn't have many). Now I wouldn't say I was socially awkward because I had a good bit of male/female friends, but I didn't know how to approach a girl and tell her I like her. So I did the next best thing, become her friend and work my way up. Then from there, treat her well, do extra stuff, and leave subtle hints. Then, when I reach my comfort zone, I figured it would just happen. Two problems: One- I was putting "pussy on a pedestal" and Two- I took too much time waiting or was too shy to make a move. So I would often hear, "Adam is so sweet" or "Adam, you're going to be a nice husband one day" or "Adam is a great friend". Also, being the smart guy didn't help my rep any. In addition, I was usually fixated on that one crush so I didn't leave myself any options. I was ultimately reduced to the being a friend-only. In the end, I never had a girlfriend or anything close in high school.

I hit an all-time low, in my eyes, when I went on an internship before college. Basically, I was used as an emotional rebound by an older female intern who was having problems with her boyfriend. So after spilling some of my frustrations out to some of the older guys/interns, they gave me some advice and I decided I was going to put out an actual effort in approaching women.

My freshmen year in college was my experimental year. I was advised to take chances so I made some attempts to make a move on the women I wanted. Now I crashed and burned quite a few times (got fake numbers, got numbers but the girl ignored me, or got shot down) before I stopped looking nervous and stopped worrying so much about getting turned down. After all, the worse that can happen is that person says no and you move on. Sooner or later, I got somewhat comfortable being myself around women. Picked up on a few things like ways to flirt, when to be aggressive, etc. Talking to my close female friends actually helps me out sometimes as well. I'm no expert, but I have no problem walking up to a stranger who I think is cute and starting a convo.

Like I said earlier, I think the best way to gain a comfort zone is through experience. I think most of us are scared to be wrong and get blown off so we settle for a sure-fire method (being an accommodating friend). Asking a girl to hangout or on a date is a good first step. You don't have to spill your heart out on a first meeting (actually, I advise against it.) Get a feel for the girl and then let her know calmly while being confident. Being natural lets women know you're honest and sure of yourself.

Ex: (I think you're real cute)...we should talk/date if you're interested.

Not entirely smooth, but my motive comes across. Small compliments help sometimes. You can also say things like "I like talking with you...If you're single...blah blah blah". Friends option is available if you get turned down, but don't pursue her after if she says yes.

*Note* After reviewing a few of those traits, some of them are a little iffy even though they can be right...stole it from a website.

[reckful]

These type of "nice guys" finish last. That's why some INTJ males have trouble with approaching women or relationships now.

The "stereotypical nice guy" traits that you listed included the following:

-Is too nice to women, like he would be to his grandmother.
-Tends to accepts a woman's demands, just so she will spend time with him or continue talking to him.
-Becomes a 'doormat' for women and puts his own needs aside.
-Listens to all of woman's problems and discusses them in the way her girlfriends would.
-Gives away his power to women, and allows women to become the 'boss'.
-Always seems to ask women what they want to do, instead of being a man and taking the lead.

INTJ? "Accepts a woman's demands," "puts his own needs aside," discusses her problems "the way her girlfriends would," and "allows women to become the 'boss'"?

INTJ? Are you serious?

I'd say I have a pretty strong "nice guy" side (and I like to think it helps balance my stubborn, annoying side :)), I'm shy and I don't doubt there are women whose bells might more likely be rung by alphawolf than me. But the kind of self-sacrificing weak-willed "doormat" you've described doesn't correspond well to the personality traits generally associated with INTJ's.

I think ISFJ's and ISFP's may be the most likely types to veer in the direction of your "stereotypical" description. But I'd also say your description sounds too extreme to be a "typical" portrait of any type.

[Undead Bonzi]

The title of this thread is correct but the ensuing discussion seems to be based on a false assumption of being 'nice' having anything to do with initial attraction. Being 'nice' has absolutely nothing to do with getting laid or not getting laid/ getting a date/not getting a date. It is a factor which has almost no bearing on the initial stages of attraction/interest. A potential date is never going to notice anything but the surface of what you are unless you are willing to advertise your traits. Confidence is 75% of initial attraction. This has nothing to do with being 'nice' or not. (As a side note: Being nice IS/CAN BE benneficial in maintaining a long term relationship as long as confidence is retained, but as I said perviously, it has nothing to do with initial attraction.

The problem is that out of the people who are not having success in the dating department, 'nice' guys face a handicap in seeing why they are left behind. It is too easy to say, I'm kind and considerate ect ect, why can't someone see how great I am and want me. This leads down an avenue of behavior where no changes in stategy or image are undertaken, thus the 'nice guy' can find himself 'finishing last' but never making any changes to avert such an outcome.

[SeaCzar]

These are traits of the stereotypical "nice guy".

Traits

I am not sure where you got this list, but here are my responses, from one who considers himself a "nice guy", and also one who soes not equate nice guy = doormat.

-Is nervous around women. No. I approach women as natural objects of affection
-Is shy in social situations. I am reserved in social situations, but not shy. If I have something to say, I will do so.
-Is intimidated by women and feels like he needs to impress them. I like to give a good impression, but that is not due to intimidation.
-Doesn't know what to say to women (usually linked into trying to impress women). Casual converation is the best, until you hit upon some commonality.
-Is too nice to women, like he would be to his grandmother. Ah, let me think about this, ah, NO!!
-Calls women too often, not allowing them to miss him. Hey, you're either interested or not. Continous phone calls are silly really.
-Tells women that he has 'feelings' for them too early. Ah, again, let me think about this, ah, NO!! Your maturity should preclude this
-Behaves submissively or weakly around women. Nice guy does not = doormat
-Tends to accepts a woman's demands, just so she will spend time with him or continue talking to him. See above
-Becomes a 'doormat' for women and puts his own needs aside.
-Listens to all of woman's problems and discusses them in the way her girlfriends would. WTF? To both of the above: Nice guy does not = emotional tampon, either.
-Gives away his power to women, and allows women to become the 'boss'.
-Always seems to ask women what they want to do, instead of being a man and taking the lead. If you want this to be a relationship, both should provide input, neither bossing the other. This does not mean that a man should lack a leadership role. It also does not mean that the man should dictate everything.

[NoStoneUnturned]

I think the "nice guy" is the INFJ persona.

INFJs often don't like winning because they would feel bad about the losers losing....
INFJs are usually smarter than most people.

The rest are self-sacrificing.

[curiousgeorge01]

I think there is some truth to the saying that "nice guys" finish last (except when they actually "get" some lol). But I think the cocky, arrogant ones are likely to get divorced first! :p

Honestly, if timed right, a so-called "mediocre" guy may actually spark the girl's interest if he just plain asks her out. The worst she can say is no, and while it hurts, at least you don't have to wonder "what if." Or have to deal with the chronic rejection when she calls you up at 3 AM about how the cocky asshole who DID ask her out is treating her poorly.

Ok I'm just going to throw something out there because I know a lot of guys experience this. Yes the cocky arrogant ones are likely to get divorced first but they're also the ones to lay you first!

You see there's a big discrepancy between the way men and women view sex, men view it as the holy grail and women view it as "meh" because they can get it almost anytime. So I think A LOT of men anger stems from the fact that you girls give sex to the assholes first hence the belief that "nice guys finish last." I think the other guys start thinking, "really, you rather have sex with that asshole than me?" and they take it really personally.

I suppose you can liken it to this, imagine you spent on your time getting ready for prom: beautiful dress, make up, and the whole shabang hoping guys notice you. Then, some girl comes into prom all discheveled in a t-shirt and jeans and has a whatever attitude and ALL the guys want her. Wouldn't you take it personally?

Also regarding that timing thing, IT ALSO is irritating. What, all that work trying to get women and it comes down to pure chance??

[JohnDoe]

I think the "nice guy" is the INFJ persona.

INFJs often don't like winning because they would feel bad about the losers losing....
INFJs are usually smarter than most people.

The rest are self-sacrificing.

What the fuck? INFJ's don't like winning? I normally have to tone down the "I must win at all costs voice" from "rip out your enemies fucking throats" to the "overwhelming victory" level. INFJ's can be *really* competitive about anything we actually care about.


Also regarding that timing thing, IT ALSO is irritating. What, all that work trying to get women and it comes down to pure chance??

Life comes down to chance. People who get everything they want in life are the ones who manage to capitalize on the opportunities they are given.

[curiousgeorge01]

Life comes down to chance. People who get everything they want in life are the ones who manage to capitalize on the opportunities they are given.

Yes, but most people think about this in terms of business, not romantic relationships! I guess a lot of people don't like looking at it as if it were so whimsical.

[Mogura]

I think the "nice guy" is the INFJ persona.

INFJs often don't like winning because they would feel bad about the losers losing....
INFJs are usually smarter than most people.

Nah. We like winning. We just don't do victory dances when we do win...

[MissENFP]

These are traits of the stereotypical "nice guy".

Traits

-Is nervous around women.
-Is shy in social situations.
-Is intimidated by women and feels like he needs to impress them.
-Doesn't know what to say to women (usually linked into trying to impress women).
-Is too nice to women, like he would be to his grandmother.
-Calls women too often, not allowing them to miss him.
-Tells women that he has 'feelings' for them too early.
-Behaves submissively or weakly around women.
-Tends to accepts a woman's demands, just so she will spend time with him or continue talking to him.
-Becomes a 'doormat' for women and puts his own needs aside.
-Listens to all of woman's problems and discusses them in the way her girlfriends would.
-Gives away his power to women, and allows women to become the 'boss'.
-Always seems to ask women what they want to do, instead of being a man and taking the lead.

Hmm, most of these traits do not seem to fit the category of 'nice'. Nice is usually seen as a good thing, not a negative one...or am I completely wrong? Sometimes I can't keep up with our society's twisted language.
If this is truly how everybody is perceiving 'nice' these days, I can see why a 'nice' guy would finish last.

[Blse]

If this is truly how everybody is perceiving 'nice' these days, I can see why a 'nice' guy would finish last.

I think that's where all the confusion here comes from. Taking the term nice literally - as defined by Webster's, of course, it's a good thing. Some people, however, use nice as a synonym for spineless. The general notion that confidence and some assertiveness are attractive is of course not news - it's almost banal to say so IMHO. I don't think this debate will ever be resolved unless we - i.e. society - all agree on a definition of "nice" that applies to all circumstances.

[Cincinnatus]

Alright, I can rephrase my posts.

Mediocre (as taken from Merriam-Webster): of moderate or low quality, value, ability, or performance: ordinary, so-so.

What seems to be misunderstood here is the quality. Nice guys focus on the emotional support (stronger suit), and do indeed, provide a high quality service. They aren't mediocre people! The thoughtfulness, listening, support, and caring are better services of a close friend than a lover. If you want her to fall in love with you, that's not going to cut it. I really, really, really hate saying that, but while a woman can have a high quality cup of yogurt that is sweet, healthy, and gentle... it's boring! I had to ask myself a reflexive question: would I want vanilla yogurt for months on end or the rest of my life? If you don't think you're boring, then you'll have to show her your spice. If she still thinks you're boring, then you'll need to work on your spice.

I can remember a conversation I had with a female acquaintence of mine a number of years back that went something like this:

@ Steak 'n' Shake over a cheeseburger and milkshake:
(Insert diatribe about dating)
Her: I dated [poor sap] before. You knew that, right?
Me: Yeah? No, I didn't know that, but you're not seeing him anymore. What... uh... what happened?
Her: Well, [poor sap]'s a nice guy and all, but after a few dates I found out he was just that.

This seems to tell me that the problem is not with the finish line as it is the starting line. Get off on a good foot, and you might just get the gold. I say "might" as it is a competition, after all.

Putting it bluntly, if you can't put butterflies in her stomach and make her knees weak, then she'll find someone who will. That doesn't mean you're of no value to her, nor does it mean you're an "angry, sex obsessed prick."

[jwh1011]

Nice guys don't finish last. Nice guys never finish last, actually. And I mean the genuinely nice ones who don't try to befriend you in hopes that you'll sleep with them one day.

What happens is that mediocre guys actually finish last.

I have seen countless numbers of genuinely sweet and friendly (and not all that attractive physically) guys get girlfriends (friends ask THEM out sometimes!).

I've also met players who hooked up with a new girl every week and acted like the sweetest, most polite people I have ever met. They weren't jerks at all. They acted as "nice guys" and got exactly what they wanted.

If you're a man and no one's into you, then I am sorry to say this (not really): You are not a nice guy. You are a mediocre guy.

Somehow though, people would rather ignore the entire truth of the matter and instead blame things on everybody else. While this is easy to do, it is also ineffective and doesn't begin to solve the problem (e.g.: you work at it).

I see it happen all too often. The inept idiot blames the other party entirely, despite the fact that he's the one with all the defects in personality and appearances. What foolish, foolish self-delusion and weakness.

Disagree? or Agree? Anyone?

As much as I hate to say this, I think I agree.

I consider myself a great person to date. I'm hard working, honest, funny at times, and I enjoy spending with a significant other as opposed to going out with the guys. I've been told that I'm attractive, so it's not because I'm ugly. Despite all of this, I'm awful with women. I suppose I am just an average guy then.

There was a long period of time where I thought "all women were crazy," and "girls just want mean guys," and other self-depressing thoughts like that. I understand now that I'm not in touch with how to socialize with a woman and impress her.

That being said, I know who I am, and I'm proud of who I am. I'm confident in myself and how I've been raised. I'm not going to change who I am to be a "great guy," as I believe this would be wrong. I'm going to continue being who I am in hopes that I'll meet someone who I can really be in touch with. If not, then I'll just end up dead like everyone else who has ever lived on Earth :).

[Samoan Corleone]

I've always believed that every flavour of ice cream has someone who loves it. Therefore, I believe that there are women who'll fall for, and keep, these "mediocre" guys.

[Blse]

I've always believed that every flavour of ice cream has someone who loves it. Therefore, I believe that there are women who'll fall for, and keep, these "mediocre" guys.

...which is why 90% of the population get married before age 40 - incld. the fat, the ugly, the poor, the unsuccessful, the insecure and everyone else :) - there's a serious point here actually: if it was true that average men can't get women to like them, how do 90% of them end up married?

[Jinxu]

...which is why 90% of the population get married before age 40 - incld. the fat, the ugly, the poor, the unsuccessful, the insecure and everyone else :) - there's a serious point here actually: if it was true that average men can't get women to like them, how do 90% of them end up married?

You can marry, but your wife may not really love you. Read this story for example:

Hello. I don't normally go to places like this but I am so lost and don't know where to turn. My wife of 14 years has recently told me that she loves me but is not in love with me. Our life is in upheaval. We are currently building a new house and living with her mom during the construction process. I did not want to go there but she insisted. We never fight. (maybe 3-4 times in 16 years of knowing each other) Now, since we have been in limbo for 6+ months my wife says that she is indifferent and needs a break. We have 4 children ranging from 7 to 19 and I don't know what to do. She wants me to leave but I do not want to leave my kids. My attitude is that I love my family and she is the one who is having issues.... therefore she should leave even though it is her mothers house. I do not want separation. I love my wife and family to pieces. I have tried to get her to move to a rental house but she refuses. She won't go to counselling. We are very successful people in the business world. What to do??? Today is d-day....

28th March 2009

[identity]

...which is why 90% of the population get married before age 40 - incld. the fat, the ugly, the poor, the unsuccessful, the insecure and everyone else :) - there's a serious point here actually: if it was true that average men can't get women to like them, how do 90% of them end up married?

Because the unsuccessful women in their late 20s are desperate and have significantly lower standards (with regard to mate selection) than the typical college-going woman who has a huge talent-pool to choose from?

[reckful]

You can marry, but your wife may not really love you. Read this story for example:

OK, I read the story. Since it doesn't give us any indication why the wife of 14 years is now "not in love" with her husband, how is it relevant to this thread?

[Blse]

Because the unsuccessful women in their late 20s are desperate and have significantly lower standards (with regard to mate selection) than the typical college-going woman who has a huge talent-pool to choose from?

Sounds plausible, but the numbers don't work out. The median age for marriage is 25. Assuming that average men are indeed average, i.e. constituting a large majority of the population, many - if not most - "average men" land the ultimate comittment with a woman who's likely 25 or younger.

I also don't think there are that many desperate women out there. Income and education correlate negatively with younger marriage age. The most successful and educated women get married later than high-school or college drop-outs (30 is the median for women w/ advanced degrees). These stats contradict the assumption in your thesis that women who marry later are more desperate. These stats show that those with the attributes our society values are actually the later ones to marry (they're also less likely to get divorced).

You can marry, but your wife may not really love you.

No debate there, but most people are in love when they first marry. Half of all marriages end in divorce (although if you look at demographics you'll find that only about 20% of Asian-American marriages do), which still leaves such a big chunck of the population who find they're mate quite early to show that it doesn't take all that much.

What I'm saying is this ain't rocket science - too many people pass the test ;). Sure confidence will make your life easier, but you don't have to be above average. Average guys and even those below average find their mate - usually in their 20s, and almost all by age 40.

[Jinxu]

OK, I read the story. Since it doesn't give us any indication why the wife of 14 years is now "not in love" with her husband, how is it relevant to this thread?

Because there are many other stories like it and often the husband is what you would call a "nice guy." Nice guys may not be seen as desirable but they can be good providers. Women will marry them and cheat on them when they aren't looking.

[reckful]

Because there are many other stories like it and often the husband is what you would call a "nice guy."

I see. OK, well, if you can just assume that the problem is that the husband in the story is "nice" because often a divorced husband is "nice," then I guess I can just assume that the husband in the story is "not nice" because often a divorced husband is "not nice."

This is fun! Your turn.

[AliTree]

*warning: i haven't read any of the above responses, i'm simply going off the OP.

i don't know if i'm considered a "prize" in the male world, but i like to think my love is somewhat of a prize. my nice guy won it. he went threw more shit then anyone i know and he stayed positive and nice.

[Samoan Corleone]

Because there are many other stories like it and often the husband is what you would call a "nice guy." Nice guys may not be seen as desirable but they can be good providers. Women will marry them and cheat on them when they aren't looking.

So you're saying that the only women who will go for nice guys are gold diggers?

[Jinxu]

So you're saying that the only women who will go for nice guys are gold diggers?

In general, yes.





Jinxu added to this post, 1 minutes and 34 seconds later...

I see. OK, well, if you can just assume that the problem is that the husband in the story is "nice" because often a divorced husband is "nice," then I guess I can just assume that the husband in the story is "not nice" because often a divorced husband is "not nice."

This is fun! Your turn.

I'm not assuming, I can tell he is a "nice guy." Most people can.

[Blse]

So you're saying that the only women who will go for nice guys are gold diggers?


In general, yes.

Can't be. The numbers won't back that up. Most average guys arn't near rich enough. The median annual income for an employed adult male (age 25+) is $41,000. Only 10% of employed adult men even make $100k or more. Given these numbers and a median age of first marriage of about 27 for men (25 for women), average guys - assuming they're the majority - can't get married to gold-diggers b/c they arn't near rich enough. Most average guys don't have that much earning potential either - they'll usually see their incomes top out at about $60k - $70k at the height of their career. Yet most of them are married.

Again, this ain't rocket science. Be yourself and you'll be fine (at least that's true for the vast, vast majority of cases). No need to read books or compulsively ponder over mating strategies (although that certainly sounds like the INTJ thing to do). If you're an average guy or gal, don't worry - you'll meet your other half w/o having to do some sort of personality make-over.

[Jinxu]

Can't be. The numbers won't back that up. Most average guys arn't near rich enough. The median annual income for an employed adult male (age 25+) is $41,000. Only 10% of employed adult men even make $100k or more. Given these numbers and a median age of first marriage of about 27 for men (25 for women), average guys - assuming they're the majority - can't get married to gold-diggers b/c they arn't near rich enough.

What the hell are you talking about? Women will take the best that they can get.

[Blse]

You don't think the average woman can make $41k a year? (well, actually she doesn't, but she could) Money can't be the reason why average guys are getting married.

[Samoan Corleone]

Well that's why guys who are both nice and poor are to be envied. If anyone falls for them, it's for real.

[Jinxu]

You don't think the average woman can make $41k a year? (well, actually she doesn't, but she could) Money can't be the reason why average guys are getting married.

Look I'm trying to help you here. You can either learn life's lessons from other people or you can learn them the hard way. It's your life. It's your choice.

[Synamon]

What the hell are you talking about? Women will take the best that they can get.

Really?

You make lots of posts asking questions because you don't understand women, but on this you are very definite. You know this how exactly? Did the aliens tell you?

[Jinxu]

Really?

You make lots of posts asking questions because you don't understand women, but on this you are very definite.

Actually with this section, I make posts usually to see how members here will respond. It has nothing to do with me needing advice.

You know this how exactly?

It's call male intuition...

[reckful]

I'm not assuming, I can tell he is a "nice guy." Most people can.

I interrupt this story-interpretation debate to refer you to post #53.

Game. Set. Match.

And after the way you treated us earlier in this thread, don't think you can come crawling to us now for "nice guy" lessons. We're at least going to need some cool-down time, because we're sensitive.

[Kris]

There's a lot of disparity between what people mean by nice guys in this thread. Some people seem to be feeling the need to defend the nice guy definition because they see themselves as nice. There is nothing wrong with being nice, the problem is the stereotypical nice guy that fits the finish last mantra has no backbone. That's it. Without confidence a nice guy is generally submissive and ends up being defined by this and his nice traits. All other facets of his character stay hidden beneath the surface. The thing about confidence is even if you aren't confident you can act like it and people won't know the difference, and eventually you'll believe it yourself.

[Blse]

Look I'm trying to help you here

Well, thank you but I've never really had any trouble with women... that's part of why I find these threads amusing... granted, I wouldn't call myself average and my public personality is often an ENTJ (which I guess you would expect to be successful in this arena). I'm also not into casual relatioships and hook ups; I don't hit on drunk or insecure girls, etc... - perhaps that influences my perspective as well. To me personally it seems that women on these threads are viewed more like strange woodland creatures who need to manipulated rather than the human beings I know they are.

But me personally aside... the facts cleary point out that you can be quite average and still find the love of your life. It doesn't require all that much - just be yourself.

thing about confidence is even if you aren't confident you can act like it and people won't know the difference, and eventually you'll believe it yourself.

Ah, yes... fake it 'til you make it. I have my doubts. There are hundreds of signals your body sends out at any given point in time. It seems easier to just be confident (it's also healthier) rather than try to manipulate all those body signals (granted, I've never tried it). I think you should find yourself first, accept yourself then you'll have actual confidence - which will be apperant to anyone w/o you trying - that's my experience: go on a journey of self-discovery and you'll return with boatloads of confidence. Fake confidence is not attractive, the real deal is - and I do think people can tell. I will agree that lacking confidence isn't attractive - that's obvious.

[reckful]

To me personally it seems that women on these threads are viewed more like strange woodland creatures who need to manipulated rather than the human beings I know they are.

Actually, it's been my experience that strange woodland creatures also respond better to a "nice guy" approach -- assuming you're not trying to kill them.

And by "respond" I don't mean ... Never mind.

[AceBrown]

The "stereotypical nice guy" traits that you listed included the following:

-Is too nice to women, like he would be to his grandmother.
-Tends to accepts a woman's demands, just so she will spend time with him or continue talking to him.
-Becomes a 'doormat' for women and puts his own needs aside.
-Listens to all of woman's problems and discusses them in the way her girlfriends would.
-Gives away his power to women, and allows women to become the 'boss'.
-Always seems to ask women what they want to do, instead of being a man and taking the lead.

INTJ? "Accepts a woman's demands," "puts his own needs aside," discusses her problems "the way her girlfriends would," and "allows women to become the 'boss'"?

INTJ? Are you serious?

I'd say I have a pretty strong "nice guy" side (and I like to think it helps balance my stubborn, annoying side :)), I'm shy and I don't doubt there are women whose bells might more likely be rung by alphawolf than me. But the kind of self-sacrificing weak-willed "doormat" you've described doesn't correspond well to the personality traits generally associated with INTJ's.

I think ISFJ's and ISFP's may be the most likely types to veer in the direction of your "stereotypical" description. But I'd also say your description sounds too extreme to be a "typical" portrait of any type.


I know those traits are EXTREME, I agree with you there. I think I made a late edit saying that some of them are iffy...but I'm pretty sure an INTJ can fall into some of those traits even though we're a step above the rest ;). That was just a gross generalization guys...

-Is too nice to women, like he would be to his grandmother. - The analogy is corny, but this is right. A nice guy is TOO nice to women because he's trying to impress her with his kindness and doesn't want to come off as a guy who wants to get into her panties.

-Tends to accepts a woman's demands, just so she will spend time with him or continue talking to him. - Demands sounds bad...A better rephrased sentence would say something like nice guys often sacrifice to be there for a woman so he can spend time with her.

-Becomes a 'doormat' for women and puts his own needs aside. - Sorta answered in the second one. This is one of the main reasons why people say nice guys are soft or wimpy.

-Listens to all of woman's problems and discusses them in the way her girlfriends would - Sad fact, this is true. A nice guy will want to solve all of the woman's problems to get her to notice him and look good. Sad fact indeed.

-Gives away his power to women, and allows women to become the 'boss'. - This is extreme...no answer for this one lol.

-Always seems to ask women what they want to do, instead of being a man and taking the lead. This goes into the nice guy being accommodating. A nice guy will want to do everything that the woman wants to do because he wants her to feel good and comfortable. The "being a man and taking the lead" part is sorta extreme, even though some women find a man taking charge sexy.



I am not sure where you got this list, but here are my responses, from one who considers himself a "nice guy", and also one who soes not equate nice guy = doormat.

-Is nervous around women. No. I approach women as natural objects of affection
-Is shy in social situations. I am reserved in social situations, but not shy. If I have something to say, I will do so.
-Is intimidated by women and feels like he needs to impress them. I like to give a good impression, but that is not due to intimidation.
-Doesn't know what to say to women (usually linked into trying to impress women). Casual converation is the best, until you hit upon some commonality.
-Is too nice to women, like he would be to his grandmother. Ah, let me think about this, ah, NO!!
-Calls women too often, not allowing them to miss him. Hey, you're either interested or not. Continous phone calls are silly really.
-Tells women that he has 'feelings' for them too early. Ah, again, let me think about this, ah, NO!! Your maturity should preclude this
-Behaves submissively or weakly around women. Nice guy does not = doormat
-Tends to accepts a woman's demands, just so she will spend time with him or continue talking to him. See above
-Becomes a 'doormat' for women and puts his own needs aside.
-Listens to all of woman's problems and discusses them in the way her girlfriends would. WTF? To both of the above: Nice guy does not = emotional tampon, either.
-Gives away his power to women, and allows women to become the 'boss'.
-Always seems to ask women what they want to do, instead of being a man and taking the lead. If you want this to be a relationship, both should provide input, neither bossing the other. This does not mean that a man should lack a leadership role. It also does not mean that the man should dictate everything.

Like someone said earlier, I think we're getting a miscommunication of what a stereotypical "nice guy" is. My definition is a doormat...I think from the responses I'm getting, you implying an introverted guy who is nice. If you ever watched "Not another teen movie", the best friend of the girl Janey would be my example of a "nice guy".





AceBrown added to this post, 4 minutes and 2 seconds later...

There's a lot of disparity between what people mean by nice guys in this thread. Some people seem to be feeling the need to defend the nice guy definition because they see themselves as nice. There is nothing wrong with being nice, the problem is the stereotypical nice guy that fits the finish last mantra has no backbone. That's it. Without confidence a nice guy is generally submissive and ends up being defined by this and his nice traits. All other facets of his character stay hidden beneath the surface. The thing about confidence is even if you aren't confident you can act like it and people won't know the difference, and eventually you'll believe it yourself.

There we go. I agree.

[Kris]

.I think from the responses I'm getting, you implying an introverted guy who is nice. If you ever watched "Not another teen movie", the best friend of the girl Janey would be my example of a "nice guy".

Yep, pretty much any of the many many movies that have a man and woman best friends, and the man pines over and follows the woman around like a puppy dog while she goes off and dates other men is the perfect example of a stereotypical nice guy. Most of the guys in these movies get the girl in the end, which is complete bullshit ;)

[theDoc]

If anyone were to use Hollywood as a benchmark to relationships, please stop. It doesn't work that way in this place called life.

[NoStoneUnturned]

What the fuck? INFJ's don't like winning? I normally have to tone down the "I must win at all costs voice" from "rip out your enemies fucking throats" to the "overwhelming victory" level. INFJ's can be *really* competitive about anything we actually care about.


Nah. We like winning. We just don't do victory dances when we do win...

Hmm, then maybe you people are just less narcissistic than most other competitors?
I could be wrong completely on this.

[OneHertz]

I think all the people talking about mediocrity being the culprit are correct. I am the biggest asshole and women either absolutely love me (to the point of following me around when I don't even want them to) or absolutely hate me. I don't get many neutral responses. I assume it would be the same for somebody who is extremely nice (or even an extreme doormat). Being just a little nice would make you average and thus undesirable by most.

It is just supply and demand. The average guy listens to women talking about what they want in a guy and tries to become that. A lot of women think they want nice guys, but they really don't. The result is that 50% of the guys become what maybe 10% of the women truly want (random numbers).

[Prunesquallor]

Can we at least acknowledge that dislike for the stereotypical doormat "nice guy" doesn't mean that women, if you can even talk about all of them together like that, don't like people who are genuinely nice, but in fact prefer assholes? Because that seems to be the biggest blindspot one tends to find. Yes, assholes of both genders can get dates, we all see that, but "I must act like an asshole to get girls, since they like that" is really missing the point, mkay?

[jcb]

Can we at least acknowledge that dislike for the stereotypical doormat "nice guy" doesn't mean that women, if you can even talk about all of them together like that, don't like people who are genuinely nice, but in fact prefer assholes? Because that seems to be the biggest blindspot one tends to find. Yes, assholes of both genders can get dates, we all see that, but "I must act like an asshole to get girls, since they like that" is really missing the point, mkay?

uh uh prune...all women prefer assholes. you have been told.

nice ass by the way - smokin' even :thumbsup:

[OneHertz]

Can we at least acknowledge that dislike for the stereotypical doormat "nice guy" doesn't mean that women, if you can even talk about all of them together like that, don't like people who are genuinely nice, but in fact prefer assholes? Because that seems to be the biggest blindspot one tends to find. Yes, assholes of both genders can get dates, we all see that, but "I must act like an asshole to get girls, since they like that" is really missing the point, mkay?

Sure. There is a certain amount of women that like assholes and there is a certain amount that like nice guys. Can you agree that there are a lot more nice guys out there than assholes, giving the assholes a higher chance of finding someone just on the basis of numbers?

I mean, the advice of "you must act like an asshole to get girls, since they like that" did not just come out of nowhere. It does not logically follow on its own. It came from a lot of success stories.

[Prunesquallor]

Sure. There is a certain amount of women that like assholes and there is a certain amount that like nice guys. Can you agree that there are a lot more nice guys out there than assholes, giving the assholes a higher chance of finding someone just on the basis of numbers?

I mean, the advice of "you must act like an asshole to get girls, since they like that" did not just come out of nowhere. It does not logically follow on its own. It came from a lot of success stories.

Of course not, since the amount of girls who like assholes and those who like nice guys is not equal either. Which definition of nice are you using, anyway?

The advice did not come out of nowhere. It came out of 'girls don't like (stereotypical spineless doormat) nice guys,' which was interpreted as 'girls don't like (genuinely) nice guys', which was interpreted as 'girls like the opposite.' Which is a highly problematic reasoning chain.

[SelfMadeBum]

Actually with this section, I make posts usually to see how members here will respond. It has nothing to do with me needing advice.



It's call male intuition...Yeah... that famous male intuition...

So you think that women just marry the guy with the most money?

[AceBrown]

All these different definitions for "nice" is confusing me :)

I'mma go ahead and generally agree with Prune.

Also, I always thought the "girls don't want nice guys" thing came from stereotypical high school girls who wanted to date the stereotypical bad boy.

[Prunesquallor]

All these different definitions for "nice" is confusing me :)

I'mma go ahead and generally agree with Prune.

Also, I always thought the "girls don't want nice guys" thing came from stereotypical high school girls who wanted to date the stereotypical bad boy.

Yeah, that too. For some people, high school just doesn't seem to end.

[OneHertz]

Of course not, since the amount of girls who like assholes and those who like nice guys is not equal either. Which definition of nice are you using, anyway?

It's not equal, but I still don't think the difference is to the same degree. I guess I am using the doormat definition, however that is all relative. Anyone can be a doormat when comparing to another person. I am not talking about complete doormats, but what the average guy would be. The average dude (here in Canada) is actually quite nice from what I have seen.

The advice did not come out of nowhere. It came out of 'girls don't like (stereotypical spineless doormat) nice guys,' which was interpreted as 'girls don't like (genuinely) nice guys', which was interpreted as 'girls like the opposite.' Which is a highly problematic reasoning chain.

Who said girls don't like nice guys? Girls looking for nice guys is all I see all over the internet. All the PUA stuff KIND OF tells guys to be assholes. It doesn't really say that, but it is often interpreted as such.

To expand:

Asshole at some show:
M: oh my god my eyes, that girl is so fat why is she dancing, she is going to break the floor. I am going to go eat.
F: *giggles* I'll come too.
M: Ok, but you gotta make it interesting for me if you want to come along :)
F: And how would I do that?
M: Take your top off
F: *giggles*
M: Why are you laughing? :(

This happens all the frigging time. So many women are attracted to this, it is scary. It usually tends to be those good girls with good grades that work very hard too, which is even more confusing to me.

[Jefferson]

Funny topic, IMHO. :cheesy:

Stereotypical "nice guy" doesn't finish at all. But that not necessarily means, girls lies about their desires.

Question often stands: "What you like most?"
And girl replies "nice, smart, honest.... guy"

Is it lie? Look at "What body part you find most attractive?" (can't remember exact title) thread.

Boys answering "eyes" :rolleyes: are majority. True, in some way.
But it isn't answer on question "what thrills you most?"
If it were EYES :rolleyes: , all women in streets will be topless and wearing summer glasses.

Very few people are comfortable answering question "what thrills you most?".

[alphawolf]

Who said girls don't like nice guys? Girls looking for nice guys is all I see all over the internet.

You don't realize that there is a huge disparity between what women say and what women do.

For example, do you think that women are going to advertise that they want a man who will beat them, cheat on them, or mentally abuse them? No, of course not - they all say they want honesty and someone who will treat them well. When they are thinking with their head, they do not want that bad behaviour from a man. Still, when it comes to romance, most women are very emotionally driven and don't understand their feelings of attraction to (insert random man), and women with low self-esteem will go for the same types of men over and over again, and they will dump/reject the men who don't misbehave in any way. It's like they have built-in asshole magnets, which are in reverse polarity with men who behave properly. Only the men who are assholes in some way can make them wet between the legs...

The optimal woman would have a decent self-esteem, not be completely emotionally driven when it comes to romance, and not be a cold, jaded bitch, either. She would be kind to everyone, be a good mother, be feminine, and be completely comfortable with her gender. She would not have the built-in asshole magnet. The world would be a better place.

Welcome to real life.

[OneHertz]

You don't realize that there is a huge disparity between what women say and what women do.

I do... I posted just a few posts back A lot of women think they want nice guys, but they really don't

[Kris]

Argh, you can be as nice as you want just don't be a damn pussy! :cry:

And in regards to the bad boy thing, I definitely don't think its just a high-school thing. I don't think its about being an asshole douchebag with a chip on your shoulder. I think its more a mixture of confidence, that slightly 'rough' look and plenty of the 'forbidden fruit' factor.

[Jinxu]

Yeah... that famous male intuition...

So you think that women just marry the guy with the most money?

Money is one factor of many...

[SeaCzar]

There needs to be some delineation here. For purposes of this thread, would someone define the following:

Nice guy?

Doormat/douche bag?

Asshole?

[Jefferson]

There needs to be some delineation here. For purposes of this thread, would someone define the following:

Nice guy?

Doormat/douche bag?

Asshole?

Nice guy = he does all/only what is expected and than wonders why he isn't boss

Asshole = somebody who aquires something I really wanted with process I disagree

[Prunesquallor]

It's not equal, but I still don't think the difference is to the same degree. I guess I am using the doormat definition, however that is all relative. Anyone can be a doormat when comparing to another person. I am not talking about complete doormats, but what the average guy would be. The average dude (here in Canada) is actually quite nice from what I have seen.

Who said girls don't like nice guys? Girls looking for nice guys is all I see all over the internet. All the PUA stuff KIND OF tells guys to be assholes. It doesn't really say that, but it is often interpreted as such.

To expand:

Asshole at some show:
M: oh my god my eyes, that girl is so fat why is she dancing, she is going to break the floor. I am going to go eat.
F: *giggles* I'll come too.
M: Ok, but you gotta make it interesting for me if you want to come along :)
F: And how would I do that?
M: Take your top off
F: *giggles*
M: Why are you laughing? :(

This happens all the frigging time. So many women are attracted to this, it is scary. It usually tends to be those good girls with good grades that work very hard too, which is even more confusing to me.

Plenty of people, including you, are saying that girls fall for assholes rather than nice guys. See your previous example. I'm saying this is bogus. These people do exist, no one's denying that, and tend to be far more visible than the rest of us, but most of the rationale behind 'girls fall for assholes' comes from the "I can't get a date, and I'm nice, the girl I like is dating someone who I think is a jerk (which is not exactly an unbiased opinion) therefore girls must like jerks." Or the faulty rationale I mentioned earlier. Or 'I know an asshole who sleeps with lots of girls."

Thing you need to get - the assholes who get these girls aren't better at pick-up lines, or the way they present themselves most of the time - the majority of girls will avoid these people - what these guys are better at is picking their targets. They know who's willing to respond to that bullshit - some because of stupidity, others because it's a way of communicating "this will lead to sex" and that's what they're after too. It's not the majority of us, so determining "what girls like" from the "success" of someone like alpha is misleading. Yes, these people sleep with a lot of girls, but they're all from a very particular subset, and generalising from this subset of girls to everyone else is faulty reasoning. Mkay? There may be some broad general similarities, but the "techniques" have to be combined with a feel for the right kind of girl to use them on, or they just piss people off.

[OneHertz]

Plenty of people, including you, are saying that girls fall for assholes rather than nice guys. See your previous example. I'm saying this is bogus. These people do exist, no one's denying that, and tend to be far more visible than the rest of us, but most of the rationale behind 'girls fall for assholes' comes from the "I can't get a date, and I'm nice, the girl I like is dating someone who I think is a jerk (which is not exactly an unbiased opinion) therefore girls must like jerks." Or the faulty rationale I mentioned earlier. Or 'I know an asshole who sleeps with lots of girls."

Thing you need to get - the assholes who get these girls aren't better at pick-up lines, or the way they present themselves most of the time - the majority of girls will avoid these people - what these guys are better at is picking their targets. They know who's willing to respond to that bullshit - some because of stupidity, others because it's a way of communicating "this will lead to sex" and that's what they're after too. It's not the majority of us, so determining "what girls like" from the "success" of someone like alpha is misleading. Yes, these people sleep with a lot of girls, but they're all from a very particular subset, and generalising from this subset of girls to everyone else is faulty reasoning. Mkay? There may be some broad general similarities, but the "techniques" have to be combined with a feel for the right kind of girl to use them on, or they just piss people off.

I am saying that SOME girls fall for assholes. I've stated many times that I definitely do not think ALL do. And 'I know an asshole who sleeps with lots of girls" is what I have said I believe the main reason to be in one of the previous posts.

You'd be extremely surprised how many girls this works for... extremely. In my experience, the majority of university girls. The previous post was a transcript of how I act when I don't care. I act like this all the time when I am not at work. I am not trying to get sex or anything like that, but it does give me someone to eat/talk with all the time. If I actually like someone then I turn into a nice moron like the majority of the male population.

[reckful]

I think my biggest issue with this whole thread is that, as many of the previous posters have already pointed out, there's lots of discussion going on without any clear definition of what a "nice guy" (or a "mediocre guy") is.

The main point I want to make in this post is that a large number of what you might call the anti-nice-guy posters are talking about a "doormat" type -- i.e. a weak-willed guy who is overly self-sacrificing and basically spends his time catering to the woman's desires.

Two things about doormats:

1. If you want to define "nice guy" that way, I don't think there's much disagreement that (A) that's not a good way for a guy to be (there's such a thing as too much self-sacrifice, and a marriage should generally reflect more of an equal-power dynamic), and (B) that a large percentage of women are not going to be attracted to a doormat (sexually or otherwise).

2. For better or worse, people far more often err on the side of too much selfishness than too much self-sacrifice. Doormats are pretty rare, and those that exist are far more likely to be F's than T's. The majority of men are T's, and the majority of the minority (male F's) are not doormats. Some of the posts in this thread read as if men come in two varieties: domineering alphas and doormats -- but most men don't fit either of those descriptions very well. Anybody who wants to talk about doormats is free to do so, but I think they're talking about a very small percentage of real-world men.

And as I said in an earlier post, it's pretty hard to imagine an INTJ being a weak-willed self-sacrificing doormat. For better and worse, INTJ is one of the more strong-willed and less accommodating types. Most of us couldn't play the doormat role even if, for some perverse reason, we wanted to.

[alphawolf]

Plenty of people, including you, are saying that girls fall for assholes rather than nice guys. See your previous example. I'm saying this is bogus. These people do exist, no one's denying that, and tend to be far more visible than the rest of us, but most of the rationale behind 'girls fall for assholes' comes from the "I can't get a date, and I'm nice, the girl I like is dating someone who I think is a jerk (which is not exactly an unbiased opinion) therefore girls must like jerks."


You make sense, but you either choose to ignore or are ignorant to the level of domestic abuse/violence going on in every country in the world, particularly western countries. The percentages of households that contain domestic abuse is staggering in most countries. And other things like codependency caused by alcoholic parents, or due to emotional incest from parents are even more widespread and unreported. Most marriages fail, children everywhere are without both parents, and shit happens.

Abuse is also something that takes on so many forms that most people don't even recognize it when it happens, or they deny that it is abuse because the particular thing is so prevalent in their society. For example, a mother asking her child to sleep in her bed because she is scared - that is emotional abuse, emotional incest to be precise, and the child will grow up unwilling to choose decent partners because it subconsciously doesn't want to betray the mother. I could go on and on, but I know you get the point.

By default, people who have been somehow abused or neglected as children grow up filled with negative shame, which results in low self-esteem, which results in neediness for the same type of abuse or neglect they received as children - they are drawn to it like magnets (what I call the built-in asshole magnet). What this means is that there are a whole lot of dysfunctional people out there in the dating pool. These people span the range of IQ, education, etc. Some of them are doctors, lawyers, police, psychologists, presidents, etc. They are by and large good people, and romance is perhaps the only dysfunctional area of their entire life.

No social class is without this problem. Even if you don't have the problem, it is so damned prevalent that you either learn to deal with it or you do without unless you're really damned lucky. There are ways to keep these people happy in a romantic relationship without actually conducting any real form of abuse. I believe that one of the ways is perhaps a light dose of BDSM, or at least dominance and submission, naturally with the full consent of both partners. And while these women may not be stupid at all (case by case), a bit of misbehaving during flirting will certainly get the juices flowing for many of them.

As the old saying goes: if you can't beat em, join em. But in this case, if you're going to do it, then I advocate doing it without malice in your heart. I hope you got my point.

[AceBrown]

Maybe the correct terminology would be that assholes...

1. Have an easier time attracting women

2. Can get immediate results i.e. sex

While I agree that all women don't want an asshole, I still feel they attract way more women than a nice guy would. I'll say around 67% asshole to 33% nice guy/doormat.

Also, all women are a male assholes prey, even INTJ women ;). I think we're sorta underestimating the type of tricks an asshole can pull out.

[Jinxu]

There needs to be some delineation here. For purposes of this thread, would someone define the following:

Nice guy?
Doormat/douche bag?
Asshole?

Asshole = Good Sex
Nice guy = Good Provider
Doormat/douche bag = Neither

[AceBrown]

Asshole = Good Sex
Nice guy = Good Provider
Doormat/douche bag = Neither

Just thought of something.

An Asshole can be a Nice guy(Good Provider) or a Doormat (Neither Good Provider or Good Sex partner)

A Nice Guy doesn't want/can't to be an Asshole (All about Sex), but can be a Doormat.

Doormat just fails :laugh:

Now tell me who wins.

[Blse]

I think my biggest issue with this whole thread is that, as many of the previous posters have already pointed out, there's lots of discussion going on without any clear definition of what a "nice guy" (or a "mediocre guy") is.

The main point I want to make in this post is that a large number of what you might call the anti-nice-guy posters are talking about a "doormat" type -- i.e. a weak-willed guy who is overly self-sacrificing and basically spends his time catering to the woman's desires.

Two things about doormats:

1. If you want to define "nice guy" that way, I don't think there's much disagreement that (A) that's not a good way for a guy to be (there's such a thing as too much self-sacrifice, and a marriage should generally reflect more of an equal-power dynamic), and (B) that a large percentage of women are not going to be attracted to a doormat (sexually or otherwise).

2. For better or worse, people far more often err on the side of too much selfishness than too much self-sacrifice. Doormats are pretty rare, and those that exist are far more likely to be F's than T's. The majority of men are T's, and the majority of the minority (male F's) are not doormats. Some of the posts in this thread read as if men come in two varieties: domineering alphas and doormats -- but most men don't fit either of those descriptions very well. Anybody who wants to talk about doormats is free to do so, but I think they're talking about a very small percentage of real-world men.

And as I said in an earlier post, it's pretty hard to imagine an INTJ being a weak-willed self-sacrificing doormat. For better and worse, INTJ is one of the more strong-willed and less accommodating types. Most of us couldn't play the doormat role even if, for some perverse reason, we wanted to.

Bingo!

As for the three cateogries established above, may I suggest that people are a bit more complex. For instance, my public persona is a respectful "aplha" ENTJ. Student surveys are telling. I was ranked highly by my (65% female) students on both: "respectful" (score of 8.5 w/ 10 being highest), "courteous" (7.8), "honest" (9.0), "professional" (9.3) on the one hand, and "blunt" (8.3), "direct" (9.5) and "assertive" (8.5) on the other hand. In my experience there is nothing that equates being a strong & confident "alpha" (I don't like that type of teenage jargon but it get's the point across) with boorish, rude "asshole" behavior. You can be s confident "aplha" male and still a gentleman. Similarly, who says you can't be a rude doormat?

In the end, as pointed out in the quote above, most men are not doormats, hence the high success rate of them finding their mates.

[Cygnus]

To add a little humor to why guys do not like to be labeled as "nice guys" and hate to hear "let's be friends"

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Enjoy :)

[alphawolf]

I think the "nice guy" is the INFJ persona.

No, that's more like the way the INFP's stereotype - manipulative and passive-aggressive... INFJs are deeply intense lovers, as well as being natural warriors.

As one INFJ said, the only time an INFJ becomes promiscuous is when love has failed him/her. For women, they don't really need to do any work to be promiscuous. For men, they need to go on the hunt. After the hunt is over, there is another trail of wounded souls, another trail of unintentional damage. From the fuck-buddy that fell in love despite up-front warnings, to the ones that had to be rejected when it became apparent that they would end up being way more trouble than fun, or the ones who were hot and nice but the calendar just didn't have enough time for all of them and they wondered why they didn't receive any priority (yes, women hate each other and they want what other women have). Some types can lay this trail of damage and feel zero remorse about it. Not the INFJ. Alcohol has been proven as an effective eraser of short-term memory... If you don't remember that you hurt other people, then the memories can't hurt you.

[Mjolnir]

It is all about social proof.

To over simplify, if the male is of a lower social standing than the female, then she risks being dragged into a lower form of society than she is currently surrounded with. If he has higher social standing, he can open more doors for her. 'Assholes' tend to be more aggressive and confident, thus portraying a high level of social proof. A dramatic oversimplification, but you see the point.

When a male and female meet, in theory it is nearly universal that the male must prove himself to the girl. The trick is making the girl feel like she needs to qualify herself to you.

Granted all this is really only geared for initially meeting a girl and the first few dates or so. Once the relationship starts to have meaning then the guy needs to be quality to sustain a healthy relationship. But you never get to the point where the nice guy characteristics can do their job without a little asshole cockiness when meeting the girl.

[Blse]

It is all about social proof.

To over simplify, if the male is of a lower social standing than the female, then she risks being dragged into a lower form of society than she is currently surrounded with. If he has higher social standing, he can open more doors for her. 'Assholes' tend to be more aggressive and confident, thus portraying a high level of social proof. A dramatic oversimplification, but you see the point.

When a male and female meet, in theory it is nearly universal that the male must prove himself to the girl. The trick is making the girl feel like she needs to qualify herself to you.

Granted all this is really only geared for initially meeting a girl and the first few dates or so. Once the relationship starts to have meaning then the guy needs to be quality to sustain a healthy relationship. But you never get to the point where the nice guy characteristics can do their job without a little asshole cockiness when meeting the girl.

Well, there is some truth to it. Yes, many women (and men) respond to social status (although that also depends on personality, an NT will usually care a lot less about status than an SJ, and a variety of other factors). I'll agree that a display of status and is often sexy. However (in raised voice and pitch), too much status is intimidating and will have the opposite effect.

Lastly, please let's not confuse assertive confidence with "asshole cockiness." You can be assertive, confident and display social status while still being a gentleman.

[Mjolnir]

Lastly, please let's not confuse assertive confidence with "asshole cockiness." You can be assertive, confident and display social status while still being a gentleman.

Yes, very true. Too much of anything is bad. It is an art more, than a science, finding the line between the two.

[bdz]

To add a little humor to why guys do not like to be labeled as "nice guys" and hate to hear "let's be friends"

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Enjoy :)
hahaha...in the defense of the females everywhere, I would like to say that most of us truly are not doing this on purpose...even if you think it's blatantly obvious that we are using you...many many girls think there is no way their male friends could like them, and when confronted with this possibility refuse to even consider it. After all you've seen us at our most vulnerable...crying and upset about something silly, perhaps treating you badly by taking your friendship for granted...

I used to think men and women could just be friends too...don't agree with that anymore. But you shouldn't assume they know you like them and are therefore being deliberately manipulative.

[Cygnus]

All in good fun, bdz! Like all good fiction and humor..it is easy to relate to from actual experience combined with feelings and imagation! As funny and as over the top as it sounds..I know I felt so used and abused by being a nice guy to a few girls and never being boyfriend material. It is just more validation why I stopped being a nice guy!

[MikeC]

I used to think men and women could just be friends too...don't agree with that anymore. But you shouldn't assume they know you like them and are therefore being deliberately manipulative.


Amen to this brother. Men will be men, and to assume any man to befriend a woman and NOT to have any romantic or sexual interest is kinda silly. If the interaction goes beyond the small platonic talk, if would be fairer to assume that the guy is at least interested in you.

To all women,

Maybe its not right to say this, but don't unload your emotional baggage on guys if you are not with him. If you can't, get a real boyfriend. I feel for all the poor friendzoned bastards out there. Find a real girlfriend or a gay guy that you can cry to. Just dont use guys. yes, you are using them in ways that leads guys on.

Guys, do not fall for the trap. You'll get stuck and it will hurt. I know.

[Wired]

Bullhonkey.

Whether men *always* have romantic interest in a female with whom platonic talk is occuring or not is irrelevant to me. It's an absolute statement, and I doubt it is applicable in the majority of cases. There's no way to prove this, so it's not part of my point.

However, it is perfectly reasonable for a woman to say, "Hey, I have no interest in starting a relationship with you, but you're a nifty person. And, you're not a tool. If you want to talk with me, that's awesome. If you're looking for a lay, it's not going to happen. Let me know what you want to do." I've done it. It works. It works often, as a matter of fact.

That said, there have been times where one of us would say, "So, is this still a friendship, or am I feeling sparks?" If there are sparks, then good. If not, as long as both of us were being honest, there was no on-leading or teasing or anything.

Honesty and sincerity are not dead concepts.

[alphawolf]

Asshole at some show:
M: oh my god my eyes, that girl is so fat why is she dancing, she is going to break the floor. I am going to go eat.
F: *giggles* I'll come too.
M: Ok, but you gotta make it interesting for me if you want to come along :)
F: And how would I do that?
M: Take your top off
F: *giggles*
M: Why are you laughing? :(

This happens all the frigging time. So many women are attracted to this, it is scary. It usually tends to be those good girls with good grades that work very hard too, which is even more confusing to me.

As one of my friends put it: beautiful girls need to hear that they are smart, and smart girls need to hear that they are beautiful. The smart girl sees other beautiful girls getting attention from boys/men, and she wants it, too. She usually has something to prove: I'm not as "good and nerdy" as you think I am; I can be hot, too; I can be desired and get attention, too. Shy guys will be afraid to make a direct move on her. She needs someone who will patronize her, treat her like a little pest, and then ignore her unless she submits. Shy or nice guys are not able to do this.

Some of these girls outgrow this need when they mature, others do not.

Almost the same thing works in reverse. Shy men are attracted to extroverted women. Why? Because the shy guy says to her: maybe I shoudln't say this or do this, or I'm not very good at this... The girl ignores his reservations and tells him to go ahead. He says "hmm, i don't know". She smiles with her amazing charm and tells him "go ahead, you know you want to do it"... Her nonchalance and encouragement raises his confidence level (shy girls are not able to do this), and through that she can get him to need her like a drug. Perhaps not bad, if the girl is giving it up, but pure evil if she isn't.

[Therion]

I think the real question for everyone is "Why do I always finish last."
Vague questions and comments.. meh.

[Prunesquallor]

I am saying that SOME girls fall for assholes. I've stated many times that I definitely do not think ALL do. And 'I know an asshole who sleeps with lots of girls" is what I have said I believe the main reason to be in one of the previous posts.

You'd be extremely surprised how many girls this works for... extremely. In my experience, the majority of university girls. The previous post was a transcript of how I act when I don't care. I act like this all the time when I am not at work. I am not trying to get sex or anything like that, but it does give me someone to eat/talk with all the time. If I actually like someone then I turn into a nice moron like the majority of the male population.

You say some, and then you say most university girls. Dude, the most visible of the ones who go to parties, maybe - the ones at home, in the library, actually studying, out just with friends, are more than you think. You just don't see them as often. I do, so I know they exist, and I know how many there are. I also know those that don't like being treated badly, they just don't expect anything better. The more halfway decent guys who picky up the PUA asshole techniques because they're convinced they work, the more people who treat us like crap girls have to deal with, until it's easy to think that's all you're ever going to find. You ever read a woman's magazine? They're all convinced men are mindless shallow assholes and that holding out for romance is a fool's game. Lowered expectations is not the same as wanting.

You make sense, but you either choose to ignore or are ignorant to the level of domestic abuse/violence going on in every country in the world, particularly western countries. The percentages of households that contain domestic abuse is staggering in most countries. And other things like codependency caused by alcoholic parents, or due to emotional incest from parents are even more widespread and unreported. Most marriages fail, children everywhere are without both parents, and shit happens.

Abuse is also something that takes on so many forms that most people don't even recognize it when it happens, or they deny that it is abuse because the particular thing is so prevalent in their society. For example, a mother asking her child to sleep in her bed because she is scared - that is emotional abuse, emotional incest to be precise, and the child will grow up unwilling to choose decent partners because it subconsciously doesn't want to betray the mother. I could go on and on, but I know you get the point.

By default, people who have been somehow abused or neglected as children grow up filled with negative shame, which results in low self-esteem, which results in neediness for the same type of abuse or neglect they received as children - they are drawn to it like magnets (what I call the built-in asshole magnet). What this means is that there are a whole lot of dysfunctional people out there in the dating pool. These people span the range of IQ, education, etc. Some of them are doctors, lawyers, police, psychologists, presidents, etc. They are by and large good people, and romance is perhaps the only dysfunctional area of their entire life.

No social class is without this problem. Even if you don't have the problem, it is so damned prevalent that you either learn to deal with it or you do without unless you're really damned lucky. There are ways to keep these people happy in a romantic relationship without actually conducting any real form of abuse. I believe that one of the ways is perhaps a light dose of BDSM, or at least dominance and submission, naturally with the full consent of both partners. And while these women may not be stupid at all (case by case), a bit of misbehaving during flirting will certainly get the juices flowing for many of them.

As the old saying goes: if you can't beat em, join em. But in this case, if you're going to do it, then I advocate doing it without malice in your heart. I hope you got my point.

I do agree that there are dysfunctional people - I'm just saying that generalising from only the fucked up, a la Freud, limits one's conclusions. Also, what people settle for because, as I said before, they've been taught to expect nothing better, or taught they deserve nothing better, is not the same as what they actually want. What they want is not something they believe in. And that's going to be a large segment of that population, even as there some who want some form of abuse. I'm not a stranger to abusive relationships - it's been in my extended family - I'm just saying basing your pickup techniques on what works on the fucked up will get you only the fucked up. And the rest of us will get treated like shit by people who aren't even assholes, so thanks. Again, the fucked up are easier to use and get sex out of, so if that's what you want, it's an efficient target to pick; all I'm doing is cautioning about generalising to the rest of us; again, there are more of us than you think.

[dalidaisy]

To all women,

Maybe its not right to say this, but don't unload your emotional baggage on guys if you are not with him. If you can't, get a real boyfriend. I feel for all the poor friendzoned bastards out there. Find a real girlfriend or a gay guy that you can cry to. Just dont use guys. yes, you are using them in ways that leads guys on.

Do you realize where you are? This is an INTJ forum. I, for one, do not "unload emotional baggage" on anyone. Certainly not on my male friends (???). I am friends with men, not as some sort of crutch, but because I actually like the company of men & get along with them well. Telling me to get a "real girlfriend" or a gay guy to cry to is just...well, stupid. And, I've never used guys for anything other than sex, for the most part, and trust me, they weren't complaining.

Save your generalizations for someone that can relate to them.

Also, why do you feel for "friendzone bastards," as you call them? They make their decisions on how they want treat women & what they will accept in return. You get out of anything what you are willing to put in.

[alphawolf]

there are more of us than you think.

I'm sorry, but I dropped my rose-colored glasses and shattered the lenses a long time ago. I think that there are far less of you than you think.

I went on a date with an absolutely beautiful, highly intelligent, and wonderful personality woman last year. She was very nice, feminine, and soft in all the right places. She was actually the one who asked me out, btw. It became intuitively clear to me during the first date that she required mental abuse in order to proceed romantically; not just assholedness, but actual belittling. That is something that I am not capable of doing, so at the end of the date I just told her call me back if she's interested (mild, polite rejection to her). Of course she wasn't interested, because I didn't make her "feel" anything. A few months later, we bump into each other and she confesses to me that she's started a relationship with a guy who belittles her, but she can't leave him. She wants to complain to me about him. I told her good luck with him, I am not interested in hearing about it.

The question is not really which targets to choose, it's more about which targets are willing to accept honorable behaviour and have a healthy romantic relationship (and from all I have seen, those are few and very far in between). Despite the gross absence of worthy targets, many people still need sex.

Do you think that I've exaggerated the status quo to myself and as a result become completely disenchanted?

[Mjolnir]

Also, why do you feel for "friendzone bastards," as you call them? They make their decisions on how they want treat women & what they will accept in return. You get out of anything what you are willing to put in.

I used to be like that. When you're shy, attention starved, and socially weak you'll accept anything you can get. But that mode of thinking and getting burned has lead me being bitter, non trusting, and candy-coated me with an asshole shell.

It is all about knowing how/when to be aggressive. Don't qualify yourself too much before you assert a romantic premise, if that is what you are after. And if she doesn't respond romantically, don't pursue. You can not force her to be interested. Don't take it personally and just move on to the next girl. You can be nice doing this too.





Mjolnir added to this post, 8 minutes and 30 seconds later...

The question is not really which targets to choose, it's more about which targets are willing to accept honorable behaviour and have a healthy romantic relationship (and from all I have seen, those are few and very far in between). Despite the gross absence of worthy targets, many people still need sex.

I completely agree with this. I know I am a good guy and will treat you well. If you are quality enough to respond positively to this, then you may earn my respect and affection. Until then, I do not feel compelled to qualify myself to you. I would love to find one of you 'nice' girls, but I've yet to find one. Even if a girl seems nice at first, she has always proven the need to be belittled from my experiences with her. It makes her feel like she has to work for you and thus, if she is interested, worth working for. Otherwise she takes you for granted and becomes bored.

Maybe it is because I am still relatively young and the girls I am after aren't mature enough to see a good thing when they have it. At least that's what helps me sleep at night.

[dalidaisy]

It became intuitively clear to me during the first date that she required mental abuse in order to proceed romantically; not just assholedness, but actual belittling...

The question is not really which targets to choose, it's more about which targets are willing to accept honorable behaviour and have a healthy romantic relationship (and from all I have seen, those are few and very far in between). Despite the gross absence of worthy targets, many people still need sex.

I completely agree with this. I know I am a good guy and will treat you well. If you are quality enough to respond positively to this, then you may earn my respect and affection. Until then, I do not feel compelled to qualify myself to you. I would love to find one of you 'nice' girls, but I've yet to find one. Even if a girl seems nice at first, she has always proven the need to be belittled from my experiences with her. It makes her feel like she has to work for you and thus, if she is interested, worth working for. Otherwise she takes you for granted and becomes bored.

I'm confused. What do you mean they need belittling? What type of woman, aside from one who's not interested, isn't willing to accept honorable bahavior? You mean, they like being treated like trash? Where do you find these women?

Don't get me wrong, I understand that there is a subculture of people that get off on being treated a certain way, but I'm thinking that this isn't what you are talking about. Those people are easy to seperate from others, generally.

[blatant]

To all women,

Maybe its not right to say this, but don't unload your emotional baggage on guys if you are not with him. If you can't, get a real boyfriend. I feel for all the poor friendzoned bastards out there. Find a real girlfriend or a gay guy that you can cry to. Just dont use guys. yes, you are using them in ways that leads guys on.


Yes, yes, b/c men are so special and amazing and if he listens to you for even 4 minutes he deserves to have sex with you. *sparkle sparkle*

Bullshit. I'm "friends" with lots of guys b/c I'm not romantically interested in them and they stick around. It's not my job to look out for their romantic well-being. It's theirs.

If you've been used, then it's really your fault.

[BlackMita]

Most "nice guys" tend to be angry sex obsessed pricks on the inside.

QFT

I think the ultimate problem is that worthy people want to understand all aspects of somebody they might consider for relationship. Being nice reveals about 4% of your character. Being mean, silly, controlling, aloof, stupid, selfish, empathetic, angry, and nice, reveals about 94% of your character.

I know if I want a relationship, there can be no censorship unless the people I don't want are within eye/ear shot. I'm a "nice guy" now because I can't really pull individuals aside (date) from all the lame people without learning a whole bunch of other skills that have nothing to do with getting some. It seems to be mostly about keeping in with the right circles.

[theDoc]

Yes, yes, b/c men are so special and amazing and if he listens to you for even 4 minutes he deserves to have sex with you. *sparkle sparkle*

Bullshit. I'm "friends" with lots of guys b/c I'm not romantically interested in them and they stick around. It's not my job to look out for their romantic well-being. It's theirs.

If you've been used, then it's really your fault.

Do you believe in darwinism?

[alphawolf]

I'm confused. What do you mean they need belittling? What type of woman, aside from one who's not interested, isn't willing to accept honorable bahavior? You mean, they like being treated like trash? Where do you find these women?

Don't get me wrong, I understand that there is a subculture of people that get off on being treated a certain way, but I'm thinking that this isn't what you are talking about. Those people are easy to seperate from others, generally.


This particular woman had a need to be controlled and told things such as "you're useless", "you're stupid", "you're worthless" or given break-up ultimatums if she didn't comply with the control demands (which she naturally wouldn't). She had a psychological need for this type of abuse and drama. That was the only type of behaviour that would make her feel something romantic for a man; looks weren't important. Don't ask me to explain how I knew this, but I could just tell. And as usual, I was right. One sad part about her need for this type of belittlement is that she is, in fact, well educated and works in a professional job... To her, honorable behavior = instant friend zone. I've seen it with so many other women, I've stop counting now.

I can be an asshole when I need to, but I could never bring myself to conduct this sort of emotional abuse on anyone.

[Mjolnir]

I'm confused. What do you mean they need belittling? What type of woman, aside from one who's not interested, isn't willing to accept honorable bahavior? You mean, they like being treated like trash? Where do you find these women?

Don't get me wrong, I understand that there is a subculture of people that get off on being treated a certain way, but I'm thinking that this isn't what you are talking about. Those people are easy to seperate from others, generally.

I was dating this wonderful redhead who was always very proper, studious, and kind. However she had low self esteem and was convinced that I would have some revelation that she was a terrible person and would no longer treat her nicely. So she ran back to her abusive ex who ignored her and told her degrading things and makes her cry almost daily. This happens with most of my relationships. Self fulfilling prophecy on their part maybe... Some how they find solace in that treatment. Illogical, I know.





Mjolnir added to this post, 1 minutes and 40 seconds later...

I can be an asshole when I need to, but I could never bring myself to conduct this sort of emotional abuse on anyone.

Exactly.

[Storm]

Maybe its not right to say this, but don't unload your emotional baggage on guys if you are not with him. If you can't, get a real boyfriend. I feel for all the poor friendzoned bastards out there. Find a real girlfriend or a gay guy that you can cry to. Just dont use guys. yes, you are using them in ways that leads guys on.

Guys, do not fall for the trap. You'll get stuck and it will hurt. I know.

Yes, all women need someone to unload their "emotional baggage" to. Whereas men never need this. Men never need someone to listen to them or just give them a hug. I am always surprised such sexist attitudes still exist, especially on a forum where a personality theory which does not look at sex at all is the common interest.

As one of my friends put it: beautiful girls need to hear that they are smart, and smart girls need to hear that they are beautiful.

According to this line of logic, smart women are always ugly and beautiful women are always dumb. Now, I know that you yourself do not believe this since a few posts down you mention a woman you met who is both beautiful and smart (albeit with self-esteem issues). So, why make this statement at all when it's obviously not true? Also, instead of lying, why not compliment a woman on something that you genuinely think find attractive about them? Honesty and respect? I think I may be on to something here.

[dalidaisy]

I was dating this wonderful redhead who was always very proper, studious, and kind. However she had low self esteem and was convinced that I would have some revelation that she was a terrible person and would no longer treat her nicely. So she ran back to her abusive ex who ignored her and told her degrading things and makes her cry almost daily. This happens with most of my relationships. Self fulfilling prophecy on their part maybe... Some how they find solace in that treatment. Illogical, I know.


I'm sorry, I find this strange. I've never run across a women like this. If it happens with most of your relationships, what type of girl are you looking for that yields results like this (are you attracted to girls with low self esteem)? Also, since you are the common denominator in all these relationships, are you sure it's not something you are doing to send them running back to an ex? Are you saying that other guys are mean & you are nice, so somehow you always lose?

[Prunesquallor]

I'm sorry, but I dropped my rose-colored glasses and shattered the lenses a long time ago. I think that there are far less of you than you think.

I went on a date with an absolutely beautiful, highly intelligent, and wonderful personality woman last year. She was very nice, feminine, and soft in all the right places. She was actually the one who asked me out, btw. It became intuitively clear to me during the first date that she required mental abuse in order to proceed romantically; not just assholedness, but actual belittling. That is something that I am not capable of doing, so at the end of the date I just told her call me back if she's interested (mild, polite rejection to her). Of course she wasn't interested, because I didn't make her "feel" anything. A few months later, we bump into each other and she confesses to me that she's started a relationship with a guy who belittles her, but she can't leave him. She wants to complain to me about him. I told her good luck with him, I am not interested in hearing about it.

The question is not really which targets to choose, it's more about which targets are willing to accept honorable behaviour and have a healthy romantic relationship (and from all I have seen, those are few and very far in between). Despite the gross absence of worthy targets, many people still need sex.

Do you think that I've exaggerated the status quo to myself and as a result become completely disenchanted?

The circles you travel in do help define one's ideas about people, yes. I'm lucky enough not to surrounded by morons, but in so living, I am aware that these people you have such trouble finding are doing well. The methods you promote as you describe them work only on certain people. You disrespect most of these people. That's your call, but you do need to realise that the way you act yourself is a form of selection bias. And to generalise from that to half of humanity is entirely and obviously fallacious.

It's not really a matter of idealism or not. Most people are fucked up, the question is do most people have this particular problem that you are accusing them of having? No, they don't. So again, not about thinking people are wonderful, just that they are more complicated than you want to admit. Whom you know, and how the way you act affects whom you know - and how much data you need to justify your grand conclusions to yourself which for you is apparently not much. Your 'how to get women' advice may get you sex, but it won't get you most women, even if it gets you enough for your purposes, or many of the ones you selectively target. Even then, the reasons why it works are more complicated than you claim. Although it may do everything you need of it, is still limited as a basis for such grand generalisations as you are making, especially since all you ever do is give anecdotes. You met a woman with this problem. So? That only proves that people like that exist, which I'm not denying, not that they are a majority, or representative, or anything like you are claiming. Plenty of people who aren't like that also exist, as I can attest. Is it too much for you to admit that there is variety within half the human race? Systems are lovely and all, but not when they're bogus stereotypical delusions.

[unnamedfeeling]

I once said I'm a nice guy friend-zone material because I can never get girls interested in me and I usually end up friend zoned...

She told me I was cold, rude, closed, seeming uninterested and when a girl would flirt with me I would notice/would walk away...

I said that I'm acting nice, charming and flirty with girls everytime!

She started laughing until tears came out of her eyes... -.-

Don't feel bad, I live in the friend zone. I think it's because I grew up with three younger sisters and due to my....uniqueness I never socialized much and still don't. So I tend towards "big brother" behavior, which girls generally don't find romantically attractive, merely endearing.

[Mjolnir]

I'm sorry, I find this strange. I've never run across a women like this. If it happens with most of your relationships, what type of girl are you looking for that yields results like this (are you attracted to girls with low self esteem)? Also, since you are the common denominator in all these relationships, are you sure it's not something you are doing to send them running back to an ex? Are you saying that other guys are mean & you are nice, so somehow you always lose?

I tend to prefer petite shy girls. I'm not saying I am perfect, but I believe I have treated my relationships better than they are used to. I also don't think that they actively seek poor treatment, rather subconsciously gravitate towards it.

[Exsuscito]

You make sense, but you either choose to ignore or are ignorant to the level of domestic abuse/violence going on in every country in the world, particularly western countries. The percentages of households that contain domestic abuse is staggering in most countries. And other things like codependency caused by alcoholic parents, or due to emotional incest from parents are even more widespread and unreported. Most marriages fail, children everywhere are without both parents, and shit happens.
...


Thank you, I have to put up with willful ignorance of domestic abuse/violence all the time. In fact the more I expand my own knowledge and understanding of things, the more ignorant people seem to cross me and assert B.S. in my face.

Women (or men) who crave this form of abuse suffered similar treatment from someone very close and important to them most often (but not always) a parent. This is a destructive and addictive pattern that they feel an unconscious compulsion to play-out over and over again with people. Sexual tension provides the medium of intensity necessary for repeating the destructive emotional pattern. If sex was all I wanted from women then this life-style would suit me just fine. But I actually need to love and procreate like most human beings, and this just won't cut it.

I am aware of this and particularly compassionate towards other guys who've suffered just like this and most often they become the nice guy. This is a particularly interesting thread, but it's important to realize that anyone who thinks he has to appeal to a mate or needs to identify individuals as badass, prom queen, asshole, nice guy, douche bag, good guy, (and on it goes), in my humble opinion, is mediocre. In general what impresses me most is resilience in trouble and a demonstrated willingness to grow since there's always plenty enough trouble in life and we don't have forever. Unless you're Merlin, but this doesn't apply to him in the least, he travels backwards through time.

[JohnDoe]

This particular woman had a need to be controlled and told things such as "you're useless", "you're stupid", "you're worthless" or given break-up ultimatums if she didn't comply with the control demands (which she naturally wouldn't). She had a psychological need for this type of abuse and drama. That was the only type of behaviour that would make her feel something romantic for a man; looks weren't important. Don't ask me to explain how I knew this, but I could just tell. And as usual, I was right. One sad part about her need for this type of belittlement is that she is, in fact, well educated and works in a professional job... To her, honorable behavior = instant friend zone. I've seen it with so many other women, I've stop counting now.

I can be an asshole when I need to, but I could never bring myself to conduct this sort of emotional abuse on anyone.

I think this is more common then most want to admit. I've met way way too many people who were *exactly* like this. And I just can't heap that type of abuse on someone. Damn ethics. Its now to the point that there are like certain types of people who act a certain way and I don't even need to get to know them well to tell that this is exactly what they are going to want.

[Mjolnir]

I think this is more common then most want to admit. I've met way way too many people who were *exactly* like this. And I just can't heap that type of abuse on someone. Damn ethics. Its now to the point that there are like certain types of people who act a certain way and I don't even need to get to know them well to tell that this is exactly what they are going to want.

I have fleeting conflicts with my conscious over this until I remember how much respect I have for them due to their inability to construct another coping mechanism for their insecurities. The thing that saves them from me is that I acknowledge that because I don't respect them I could never have a healthy relationship with them and choose to ignore them to save my own sanity.

[MikeC]

Bullhonkey.

Whether men *always* have romantic interest in a female with whom platonic talk is occuring or not is irrelevant to me. It's an absolute statement, and I doubt it is applicable in the majority of cases. There's no way to prove this, so it's not part of my point.

However, it is perfectly reasonable for a woman to say, "Hey, I have no interest in starting a relationship with you, but you're a nifty person. And, you're not a tool. If you want to talk with me, that's awesome. If you're looking for a lay, it's not going to happen. Let me know what you want to do." I've done it. It works. It works often, as a matter of fact.

That said, there have been times where one of us would say, "So, is this still a friendship, or am I feeling sparks?" If there are sparks, then good. If not, as long as both of us were being honest, there was no on-leading or teasing or anything.

Honesty and sincerity are not dead concepts.

For once, dont read between the lines. I didnt explicitly say men and women couldnt be friends - I said women shouldnt unload their emotional problems to men other than those intimately close to you. Jeez.

Do you realize where you are? This is an INTJ forum. I, for one, do not "unload emotional baggage" on anyone. Certainly not on my male friends (???). I am friends with men, not as some sort of crutch, but because I actually like the company of men & get along with them well. Telling me to get a "real girlfriend" or a gay guy to cry to is just...well, stupid. And, I've never used guys for anything other than sex, for the most part, and trust me, they weren't complaining.

Save your generalizations for someone that can relate to them.

Also, why do you feel for "friendzone bastards," as you call them? They make their decisions on how they want treat women & what they will accept in return. You get out of anything what you are willing to put in.

gay guy, girlfriend, mom, sister, diary, mirror, cat...whatever.

INTJs make up, what, 5-6% of the female population? >95% can be generalised as a good sample to represent the whole population.

You may be an exception, but hey... you are special, right? And in keeping with the context of your argument, INTx men don't always go for INTx women anyway, which makes your point that much more moot.

Withsaying that, you are using men the way you should be. mutual interests are met, pareto equlibrium is reached. Please keep it up.

Yes, all women need someone to unload their "emotional baggage" to. Whereas men never need this. Men never need someone to listen to them or just give them a hug. I am always surprised such sexist attitudes still exist, especially on a forum where a personality theory which does not look at sex at all is the common interest.


About time. Men perceive this emotional intimacy as what it is... intimacy beyond the platonic level. This is the root of the friendzone. Women open up, and some hapless guy get led on. Unless he is a complete apathetic asshole, any 'nice guy' would probably be led on (they think the woman is opening up to him, and its simply rude to just shrug them off).

Gosh, If a girl friend of mine has has a flat tire or whatever in the middle of the night, I would be more than glad to help if it wasnt too far. However, If she starts talking about her emotions, I have learnt to tactfully tell her to shut up as it is not appropriate conversation.

[JohnDoe]

About time. Men perceive this emotional intimacy as what it is... intimacy beyond the platonic level. This is the root of the friendzone. Women open up, and some hapless guy get led on. Unless he is a complete apathetic asshole, any 'nice guy' would probably be led on (they think the woman is opening up to him, and its simply rude to just shrug them off).

Everyone needs someone sometime. But a friend is not someone who you constantly vent to. That is not a real friendship, thats using someone as a therapist under the guise of being their friend, and quite frankly that behavior is deserving of a fuck off.

[Storm]

About time. Men perceive this emotional intimacy as what it is... intimacy beyond the platonic level. This is the root of the friendzone. Women open up, and some hapless guy get led on. Unless he is a complete apathetic asshole, any 'nice guy' would probably be led on (they think the woman is opening up to him, and its simply rude to just shrug them off).

Gosh, If a girl friend of mine has has a flat tire or whatever in the middle of the night, I would be more than glad to help if it wasnt too far. However, If she starts talking about her emotions, I have learnt to tactfully tell her to shut up as it is not appropriate conversation.

Actually, I was being sarcastic. So, you don't think friendship involves talking about emotions at all? If your friend (male or female) tells you that she's upset because her mother is in the hospital, you tell her to shut up instead of giving her a hug? If your male friend just went through a bad break up, you don't say anything to him like "Hey, man, sorry to hear about that. You'll find someone else, you're a great guy."

[JohnDoe]

Actually, I was being sarcastic. So, you don't think friendship involves talking about emotions at all? If your friend (male or female) tells you that she's upset because her mother is in the hospital, you tell her to shut up instead of giving her a hug? If your male friend just went through a bad break up, you don't say anything to him like "Hey, man, sorry to hear about that. You'll find someone else, you're a great guy."

Oh please. Theres a difference between "involving" emotions and her dumping all of her problems on you, and I'm pretty sure that is what mike is talking about.

[MikeC]

Actually, I was being sarcastic. So, you don't think friendship involves talking about emotions at all? If your friend (male or female) tells you that she's upset because her mother is in the hospital, you tell her to shut up instead of giving her a hug? If your male friend just went through a bad break up, you don't say anything to him like "Hey, man, sorry to hear about that. You'll find someone else, you're a great guy."

You know that is not what I meant by women opening up emotionally. Do not digress. Men can actually sympathise and have sincere camaraderie, thank you. I'll even send a card if that pleases you.

[Storm]

You know that is not what I meant by women opening up emotionally. Do not digress. Men can actually sympathise and have sincere camaraderie, thank you. I'll even send a card if that pleases you.

Actually, I guess I don't know. Then again, I find discussing my emotions on any level difficult. So, when you said "don't open up emotional" I assumed you meant talking about emotions at all.

[Fallstar]

QR

Women want Alpha Males, men who can provide for them, protect them, provide for their young and pass along good genes without crippling illness.

Most nice guys are too passive for their own good, so even if they get the girl, it's almost guaranteed to end.

[curiousgeorge01]

Yes, all women need someone to unload their "emotional baggage" to. Whereas men never need this. Men never need someone to listen to them or just give them a hug. I am always surprised such sexist attitudes still exist, especially on a forum where a personality theory which does not look at sex at all is the common interest.



Honestly I think the men have a point. I mean you can either say "men all just hate women" or "they have valid points and I should consider them." The experience of a lot of men can't all be wrong.

I personally do feel like many women justify their behaviors with something some dude did to her in the past, even though she picked wrongly in the first place and continues to choose wrongly! I see tons of decent men who get turned down and run off with a jerk. Can you REALLY blame men for that? Then you talk about how your value systems are just as good as a man's but if that's the case then you shouldn't blame men for the mistakes. Again I'm not saying ALL women are like that, but it's obviously enough that a lot of men do get frustrated over it.


Even when my little cousin was in her early teens (she's pretty BTW) and I was in my early 20s, she came up to me one day and said "older brother, you know I don't know why you don't have a gf, you're good looking, smart and you treat women really well." Guess what? Fast forward 8 years later and she's dating some asshole with no future prospects.


Look I'm not trying to start a war here or something, but a lot of men see these things and instead of saying "men and women are the same except for breasts and a vagina" maybe you should evaluate it a little more carefully. And remember you INTJ women are FAR from the majority of women so NO we're not talking about you when we make these generalizations.

[Storm]

Honestly I think the men have a point. I mean you can either say "men all just hate women" or "they have valid points and I should consider them." The experience of a lot of men can't all be wrong.

I personally do feel like many women justify their behaviors with something some dude did to her in the past, even though she picked wrongly in the first place and continues to choose wrongly! I see tons of decent men who get turned down and run off with a jerk. Can you REALLY blame men for that? Then you talk about how your value systems are just as good as a man's but if that's the case then you shouldn't blame men for the mistakes. Again I'm not saying ALL women are like that, but it's obviously enough that a lot of men do get frustrated over it.

:suspicious: I'm not sure if you addressing me here, but no where did I say or imply or that "all men just hate women." This is an absurd conclusion.

What I'm saying is that making this a war of the sexes shows a failure to look at the whole. Yes, there are women who date jerks. No one is arguing that. Yes, there are good guys who can't seem to find a girlfriend. But there are good women who can't find a boyfriend and men who only date bitches. And then there are jerks dating bitches, and good people dating good people.

[Blse]

No one is arguing that. Yes, there are good guys who can't seem to find a girlfriend. But there are good women who can't find a boyfriend and men who only date bitches. And then there are jerks dating bitches, and good people dating good people.

Exactely. And for a talented, good natured, confident introvert that can be a little hard to take. We don't meet as many people and for us it's more work finding people and building relationships (b/c by virtue of our introversion it's an activity that grains us of energy - although it can be fun too once the initial approach and searching part is done). Yet, there is another way of seeing it - if an idiot and a looser can do it, so can you ;). Realizing that attraction isn't rational and extroverts may have easer time than we do only b/c they don't find the seeking and small talk part energy consuming (which means they meet more people and the odds for them are higher), not b/c they have some superior quality can give you piece of mind as well.

[curiousgeorge01]

:suspicious: I'm not sure if you addressing me here, but no where did I say or imply or that "all men just hate women." This is an absurd conclusion.

What I'm saying is that making this a war of the sexes shows a failure to look at the whole. Yes, there are women who date jerks. No one is arguing that. Yes, there are good guys who can't seem to find a girlfriend. But there are good women who can't find a boyfriend and men who only date bitches. And then there are jerks dating bitches, and good people dating good people.

YES Storm I'm talking to you, you really piss me off sometimes! =). All kidding aside...you didn't say that all men hate women, I'm just saying sometimes when women defend female behaviors and say "well men do that too" it sort of just diverts attention away from what gets men pissy. I suppose men find it more aggravating because a lot of them are simple (again not all BUT a lot of them genuinely are) and find women incredibly difficult to fathom. Men can have EVERYTHING (intelligence looks and treat women well) and still have a hard time finding a girlfriend (because of what he says or his timing, b/c he can't commit or whatever it is) while a woman who has everything (actually you just need looks) won't necessarily have that problem because men literally chase them. They are two different games!

[Storm]

YES Storm I'm talking to you, you really piss me off sometimes! =). All kidding aside...you didn't say that all men hate women, I'm just saying sometimes when women defend female behaviors and say "well men do that too" it sort of just diverts attention away from what gets men pissy. I suppose men find it more aggravating because a lot of them are simple (again not all BUT a lot of them genuinely are) and find women incredibly difficult to fathom. Men can have EVERYTHING (intelligence looks and treat women well) and still have a hard time finding a girlfriend (because of what he says or his timing, b/c he can't commit or whatever it is) while a woman who has everything (actually you just need looks) won't necessarily have that problem because men literally chase them. They are two different games!

You're missing the point. These aren't male problems, they're people problems. If you think that women just have to flutter their eyelashes to land a relationship, you are dead wrong, my friend.

[curiousgeorge01]

You're missing the point. These aren't male problems, they're people problems. If you think that women just have to flutter their eyelashes to land a relationship, you are dead wrong, my friend.

Actually for women of a certain attractiveness level, yes it is actually that easy (and no they don't have to be Megan Fox hot). Whether you want the guy or not, that's something different.

[blatant]

Men can have EVERYTHING (intelligence looks and treat women well) and still have a hard time finding a girlfriend (because of what he says or his timing, b/c he can't commit or whatever it is) while a woman who has everything (actually you just need looks) won't necessarily have that problem because men literally chase them. They are two different games!

I don't necessarily agree, sry bb. I know girls who are (or close to) the total package and men definitely don't chase after them. I think it's a problem for both genders. Or ... it could be that those people are deluded and definitely aren't the total package.

Or it could be that those people who are the total package can't find their equivalent. And if they do, then they realize that they loose their sense of superiority and they may not be into that. *shrug*

[Storm]

Actually for women of a certain attractiveness level, yes it is actually that easy (and no they don't have to be Megan Fox hot). Whether you want the guy or not, that's something different.

So, are you insinuating that if the tables were turned and a bunch of unattractive (not just physical) females were chasing after you, but no desirable ones, that you would date one?

[JohnDoe]

Actually, I guess I don't know. Then again, I find discussing my emotions on any level difficult. So, when you said "don't open up emotional" I assumed you meant talking about emotions at all.
Er, I guess we should clarify? There are tons of women who want the emotional intimacy of a relationship without any of the physical stuff. Add in some friendly flirting and this can lead people who don't know better on, and its incredibly dishonest to knowingly let that happen. I mean, you can't control what you don't know about, but most know exactly what is going on, and don't give a damn.

I personally do feel like many women justify their behaviors with something some dude did to her in the past, even though she picked wrongly in the first place and continues to choose wrongly! I see tons of decent men who get turned down and run off with a jerk. Can you REALLY blame men for that? Then you talk about how your value systems are just as good as a man's but if that's the case then you shouldn't blame men for the mistakes. Again I'm not saying ALL women are like that, but it's obviously enough that a lot of men do get frustrated over it.


Even when my little cousin was in her early teens (she's pretty BTW) and I was in my early 20s, she came up to me one day and said "older brother, you know I don't know why you don't have a gf, you're good looking, smart and you treat women really well." Guess what? Fast forward 8 years later and she's dating some asshole with no future prospects.
This is the thing in the other thread where there are a bunch (a nontrivial percentage) of people (of both sexes) where you have to be mean and abusive emotionally to them to get them to like you. I hate it. I won't date people where I have to deal with it. I simply am not going to be emotionally abusive, and as an INFJ, I would know exactly what I was doing. I know this narrows my dating pool, possibly significantly.

You're missing the point. These aren't male problems, they're people problems. If you think that women just have to flutter their eyelashes to land a relationship, you are dead wrong, my friend.
Yeah sorry I have to agree with Storm for once. As an INFJ, people who I've just met sometimes randomly pour their hearts out to me sometimes, and uh, this is one thing I can confirm. There are a bunch of women who feel worthless because they can't find someone who actually likes them for them as opposed to for their bodies.

I don't necessarily agree, sry bb. I know girls who are (or close to) the total package and men definitely don't chase after them. I think it's a problem for both genders. Or ... it could be that those people are deluded and definitely aren't the total package.
Where the hell are these people? Everyone I seem to meet either is completely immature, completely naive about the world, a socialist, really really unattractive, someone who wants emotional abuse, or not single. Its like finding mature, smart, attractive women is completely impossible. Where the heck are all these perfect women that you talk about that don't get chased? Because I'd chase those people if I knew where to find them.

[curiousgeorge01]

So, are you insinuating that if the tables were turned and a bunch of unattractive (not just physical) females were chasing after you, but no desirable ones, that you would date one?

No, what I'm saying is that you have a choice of a wide range of men based purely on looks (come on they can't all be unattractive). Men on the other hand even if they have looks don't have a choice of a wide range of women. Also we have to fight just to get noticed because its not based on that. I'm not saying that's that it's easier for women, but it makes men fight for something where they're not even sure what they're going to get because of the uncertainty and the non-homogeneity of women. We literally fight for your attention. And you can't say that wouldn't breed ill will when a woman haphazardly turns down a guy for a quality another guy has when the one who got turned down literally can't see what's so great about them.





curiousgeorge01 added to this post, 1 minutes and 35 seconds later...

I don't necessarily agree, sry bb. I know girls who are (or close to) the total package and men definitely don't chase after them. I think it's a problem for both genders. Or ... it could be that those people are deluded and definitely aren't the total package.

Or it could be that those people who are the total package can't find their equivalent. And if they do, then they realize that they loose their sense of superiority and they may not be into that. *shrug*

Nah, I haven't EVER seen a girl with the total package who can't get a guy. It's probably girls judging other girls (which always seem wrong in a guy's opinion). It's either that or the pretty and smart girl is stuck up which is like 90% of the cases.





curiousgeorge01 added to this post, 6 minutes and 7 seconds later...



Yeah sorry I have to agree with Storm for once. As an INFJ, people who I've just met sometimes randomly pour their hearts out to me sometimes, and uh, this is one thing I can confirm. There are a bunch of women who feel worthless because they can't find someone who actually likes them for them as opposed to for their bodies.




Honestly I don't see what's wrong with a guy liking a girl for her body. As long as he treats her right and cares for her, who cares? Everyone is liked for something.

[blatant]

^ then you should specify that girls who are the total package in a guy's mind will never be single, but not girls who are seen as the total package by girls.

But I've met countless attractive and intelligent women who are single. Although they aren't the types to bother looking either, I suppose.

[curiousgeorge01]

^ then you should specify that girls who are the total package in a guy's mind will never be single, but not girls who are seen as the total package by girls.

But I've met countless attractive and intelligent women who are single. Although they aren't the types to bother looking either, I suppose.

LOL honestly Blatant, I didn't anticipate it.

Yes those women certainly aren't the types to be looking. Did you know it's proven that unattractive girls have more sex than attractive women? That's because they're WAY less picky. Try getting unattractive men and ask how much sex they get.

Anyway in summary this is what I'm saying: Men as a group want sex and it's difficult for many of them to get or a very painful process with a lot of uncertainty so they're going to bitch a lot. Women have a wide range of reasons for getting involved with a man so there's going to be less universal bitching because they all don't have a common thing they want. Also, they can get sex almost whenever they want so they're not going to value it as much as men. So let men bitch and don't tell them the problem doesn't exist!

[Jinxu]

^ then you should specify that girls who are the total package in a guy's mind will never be single, but not girls who are seen as the total package by girls.


This is what the monkey analogy was talking about...

[JohnDoe]

But I've met countless attractive and intelligent women who are single. Although they aren't the types to bother looking either, I suppose.

The far bigger problem I've seen is that many of the attractive and intelligent women aren't very good at flirting or uh, communicating interest? Many project an impression that they don't want to be approached or have people interested in them. And finally, the biggest problem is that many of the people I meet who are attractive I meet through work/very small communities and I really don't want to "chase" people I see everyday unless they are willing to meet me halfway and at least flirt back, and intelligent people seem to have difficulty with this then most.

[curiousgeorge01]

This is what the monkey analogy was talking about...

Monkey analogy?

[Jinxu]

Monkey analogy?

Are women like monkeys?
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Jinxu added to this post, 1 minutes and 32 seconds later...

The far bigger problem I've seen is that many of the attractive and intelligent women aren't very good at flirting or uh, communicating interest?

It is my suspicion that many attractive women (I'm talking 9-10s) are NT types. More specific, INTP. So far the top three female members here that I would consider the hottest are INTP.

Why do you think INTP women are very attractive, JohnDoe?

[Blse]

It is my suspicion that many attractive women (I'm talking 9-10s) are NT types. More specific, INTP. So far the top three female members here that I would consider the hottest are INTP.

Well, I don't know if that's the case, though that would be good news for any NT guy! NTs can be reasoned with very easily (well all people can be reasoned with - but NTs more so).

I see everyday unless they are willing to meet me halfway and at least flirt back, and intelligent people seem to have difficulty with this then most.

I think now I'm starting to see what you mean by chase. When I first talked to my (now ex) gf (ESTJ btw), she didn't respond very warmly or flirtariously. I just kept going a bit and once I got the topic to her favorite TV show she lit up all of a sudden. I suppose you could say that I pursued her in that I wasn't detered by an intially cold reaction but kept going in my intitial approach until I found something common. But I wouldn't neccessarily call it "chasing" - just a bit of good old fashioned INTJ goal-oriented ambition.

[blatant]

This is what the monkey analogy was talking about...

and like i said before.

not only women are 'monkeys'

attractive men are monkeys as well. it swings both ways. and really, it's not such a bad thing, actually.

why on earth would you not go for something better when you can? dating is like a career sometimes. you leave if there's something better. it's not a marriage. it's dating. there's strategy involved and you want to get the best you possibly can because a lot of your happiness will probably be contingent on it. my tiniest violin plays for the guy whose girl leaves him for someone better. you know what? it was your own god-damned fault and you shouldn't be with someone like that anyway. you're better off. get over it.

and you say that the hottest women are nt types b/c you are an nt and are compatible with them, while about seventy five percent are sensors. so keep that in mind as well.

[Jinxu]

and like i said before.

not only women are 'monkeys'

attractive men are monkeys as well. it swings both ways. and really, it's not such a bad thing, actually.

why on earth would you not go for something better when you can? dating is like a career sometimes. you leave if there's something better. it's not a marriage. it's dating. there's strategy involved and you want to get the best you possibly can because a lot of your happiness will probably be contingent on it. my tiniest violin plays for the guy whose girl leaves him for someone better. you know what? it was your own god-damned fault and you shouldn't be with someone like that anyway. you're better off. get over it.

and you say that the hottest women are nt types b/c you are an nt and are compatible with them, while about seventy five percent are sensors. so keep that in mind as well.

How old are you? You sound like you have a jaded view of the world.

I don't know about attractive men. I have only noticed it occurring with attractive women. So I can't argue with you over that.

No, I don't think my opinion of who is beautiful is being influenced by my personality type.

[blatant]

How old are you? You sound like you have a jaded view of the world.

I don't know about attractive men. I have only noticed it occurring with attractive attractive women. So I can't argue with you over that.

No, I don't think my opinion of who is beautiful is being influenced by my personality type.

I've no interest in discussing my personal info. It's rather boring, I promise. But you can't really call someone jaded just for noticing that most people will care about themselves above other people (unless they're like...your mother or someone). Annnd...even if I was jaded, you can't really blame someone when they feel targeted all the time and get a bit defensive. I feel like lots of men on this board just like to harp on and on about women and their 'womenly flaws' when really, it's universal human behavior. They just care about the men with hypocrisy or monkey-abilities b/c they probably don't want to marry and have sex with men.

Humans are selfish. Whoop-dee-do. That's just basic common sense, isn't it? I'm sure that you'd rather have me die than you if you had to pick one out of the two of us. That's fine with me and it makes perfect sense.

I think you only notice it in attractive women b/c you aren't into hot guys. I'm assuming that you're a heterosexual male.

Perceptions of beauty are somewhat (not entirely) subjective, and also- confirmation bias. Then again, who am I to judge your opinions? That was a mistake of mine, I apologize. I just thought that your views were inaccurate. However, it is not my place to judge your opinions. That was wrong of me. Go ahead and declare that NT females are the most attractive. I, on the otherhand, have met lots of plain, plain NT males and females, and smokin' hot S's. Damn those S's.... :)

[Jinxu]

I've no interest in discussing my personal info. It's rather boring, I promise. But you can't really call someone jaded just for noticing that most people will care about themselves above other people (unless they're like...your mother or someone). Annnd...even if I was jaded, you can't really blame someone when they feel targeted all the time and get a bit defensive. I feel like lots of men on this board just like to harp on and on about women and their 'womenly flaws' when really, it's universal human behavior. They just care about the men with hypocrisy or monkey-abilities b/c they probably don't want to marry and have sex with men.

I only asked because it takes someone who is jaded to notice things like that. That's what having real world experience does to you. Personally, I don't waste my time complaining about your flaws. More likely, I'm too busy figuring out a way to take advantage of it.

I think you only notice it in attractive women b/c you aren't into hot guys. I'm assuming that you're a heterosexual male.

Exactly. :)

Perceptions of beauty are somewhat (not entirely) subjective, and also- confirmation bias. Then again, who am I to judge your opinions? That was a mistake of mine, I apologize. I just thought that your views were inaccurate. However, it is not my place to judge your opinions. That was wrong of me. Go ahead and declare that NT females are the most attractive. I, on the otherhand, have met lots of plain, plain NT males and females, and smokin' hot S's. Damn those S's.... :)

Have you met a member here named Hullolife? I vote her to be the hottest girl in this forum. She's an INTP. Too bad she left this place already and before I even got a chance to talk to her. Really. If you had seen her you would be like "wow, she is hot and I might even turn lesbian just for her."

[bdz]

The far bigger problem I've seen is that many of the attractive and intelligent women aren't very good at flirting or uh, communicating interest? Many project an impression that they don't want to be approached or have people interested in them.
I agree with Jinxu. Why do you think that is? :p
Maybe your standards are too high?

It's been pointed out but I feel the need to repeat that asking NT women for advice about other women is probably a horrible idea, and at the risk of devaluing stuff I've already posted here, it is equally horrible to ask them to explain female behavior ;D ASK SF FEMALES, they are the majority. You are getting a very tiny minority opinion here.

I would guess that a lot of the things we are debating here are due to F/T, which is something like 70:30 in the general female population. People here are trying to come up with reasonable explanations for stuff but people in general, especially women are anything but logical

[blatant]

It's been pointed out but I feel the need to repeat that asking NT women for advice about other women is probably a horrible idea


Unless you're interested in another NT female and need advice...? :)

[bdz]

Unless you're interested in another NT female and need advice...? :)
haha well it seems from the reception, not many are...

as a side note JohnDoe I've had this problem consistently with an INFJ friend of mine (probably the only person I'm sure is INFJ). She is very adept at quickly understanding people's feelings/intentions, but sometimes she reads way too much into statements that should be taken literally. For example I had the flu last winter and couldn't hang out for several weeks..she seemed to take it personally (??) The next time I saw her, I had to bring it up before the awkward vibe subsided.

In other words I don't think these women you are referring to are bad at flirting, or bad at communicating interest...they may be very deliberately projecting this aura of 'don't talk to me' because THEY DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO TALK TO THEM which becomes or the pretty and smart girl is stuck up which is like 90% of the cases.

Let's think about this: take your stereotypical bookish intellectual INTJ in female form, pretend she is really hot. Being an introvert, she is probably not going to want all that attention, so she sends out signals to leave her alone. Then you guys complain that she is acting like a snob.

What did I miss?

[JohnDoe]

It is my suspicion that many attractive women (I'm talking 9-10s) are NT types. More specific, INTP. So far the top three female members here that I would consider the hottest are INTP.

Why do you think INTP women are very attractive, JohnDoe?
My story with INTP's is that they seem to tend to have all sorts of problems actually flirting. Dating them seems more like a business transaction then a date. But given that is a generalization, if that wasn't an issue with the person in question, yes.

haha well it seems from the reception, not many are...

as a side note JohnDoe I've had this problem consistently with an INFJ friend of mine (probably the only person I'm sure is INFJ). She is very adept at quickly understanding people's feelings/intentions, but sometimes she reads way too much into statements that should be taken literally. For example I had the flu last winter and couldn't hang out for several weeks..she seemed to take it personally (??) The next time I saw her, I had to bring it up before the awkward vibe subsided.

If someone disappeared from my life and didn't tell me why I'd take it personally too.

In other words I don't think these women you are referring to are bad at flirting, or bad at communicating interest...they may be very deliberately projecting this aura of 'don't talk to me' because THEY DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO TALK TO THEM which becomes

Let's think about this: take your stereotypical bookish intellectual INTJ in female form, pretend she is really hot. Being an introvert, she is probably not going to want all that attention, so she sends out signals to leave her alone. Then you guys complain that she is acting like a snob.

What did I miss?
See this is why I like ENTP's. ;D

[bdz]

If someone disappeared from my life and didn't tell me why I'd take it personally too.

Ok now we are getting somewhere! :) See the thing was I TOLD her I had the flu...8000 times...she acted like I was just making up excuses. If you could give a few pointers about making them feel more assured that I am being sincere I would appreciate it. We can't hang out too often because we are constantly annoying each other, primarily due to this issue :) It is beyond exasperating yet I know neither of us are doing it on purpose.

or something about nice guys, I guess that was a little off topic...
or INFJs communicating with NTs, how's that.

edit 2: thank you

[JohnDoe]

Ok now we are getting somewhere! :) See the thing was I TOLD her I had the flu...8000 times...she acted like I was just making up excuses. If you could give a few pointers about making them feel more assured that I am being sincere I would appreciate it. We can't hang out too often because we are constantly annoying each other, primarily due to this issue :laugh: It is beyond exasperating yet I know neither of us are doing it on purpose.

Unhealthy INFJ's are clingy and suspicious. I'd give someone a pass if they had the flu.

[curiousgeorge01]

Let's think about this: take your stereotypical bookish intellectual INTJ in female form, pretend she is really hot. Being an introvert, she is probably not going to want all that attention, so she sends out signals to leave her alone. Then you guys complain that she is acting like a snob.



I know what you're saying, but the vast majority of women aren't INTJ or NTs for that matter, most are Es (since about 75% of people are) who like attention, and when you get a lot of attention, that spoils you rotten.

[JohnDoe]

In other words I don't think these women you are referring to are bad at flirting, or bad at communicating interest...they may be very deliberately projecting this aura of 'don't talk to me' because THEY DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO TALK TO THEM which becomes

Let's think about this: take your stereotypical bookish intellectual INTJ in female form, pretend she is really hot. Being an introvert, she is probably not going to want all that attention, so she sends out signals to leave her alone. Then you guys complain that she is acting like a snob.

What did I miss?

Um, I think that was my point. These are the same people who can't find a relationship for the life of them, remember? Maybe there is a connection... I *hate* flirting with INT's because they are so adverse to letting people in that most of the time I figure they just arn't interested. And then I find out a few weeks later they were interested me and just don't understand why I stopped talking as much to them. Only an INT could ask me out, and then manage to convince me they wern't interested in me at all, and probably found me boring, and then turn around and ask me out again (ACTUALLY HAPPENED)

[bdz]

I know what you're saying, but the vast majority of women aren't INTJ or NTs for that matter, most are Es (since about 75% of people are) who like attention, and when you get a lot of attention, that spoils you rotten.
I think the problem is that it can be difficult to see a woman you like as 'one of your own' or a thinking type. Blatant above was talking about NTs interested in other NTs..You are probably used to the most attractive women acting like ExFx. But when they act like IxTxs, you call them snobs...they are doing the EXACT same stuff you do, they just look different...

Any guy who wants a smart woman who's also attractive should realize this before running around calling these women stuck up. I think if I were an INTJ that would be really annoying.
note: In a feeling type introversion would just come off as being coy. I think it is the combination of I + T that makes these women a little more obvious about their need for space, and that comes off as being stuck up.

Um, I think that was my point. These are the same people who can't find a relationship for the life of them, remember?
or maybe they don't want one?

Maybe there is a connection... I *hate* flirting with INT's because they are so adverse to letting people in that most of the time I figure they just arn't interested. And then I find out a few weeks later they were interested me and just don't understand why I stopped talking as much to them. Only an INT could ask me out, and then manage to convince me they wern't interested in me at all, and probably found me boring, and then turn around and ask me out again (ACTUALLY HAPPENED)
hahaha what? I hope you have a better experience in the future...as you already mentioned I think ENTP would be a better fit :)

[JohnDoe]

Relevant xkcd that I'm surprised no one has posted before
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[Jefferson]

LOL honestly Blatant, I didn't anticipate it.

Yes those women certainly aren't the types to be looking. Did you know it's proven that unattractive girls have more sex than attractive women? That's because they're WAY less picky. Try getting unattractive men and ask how much sex they get.

That's it. Way less picky because they are boosting their self-confidence thru sex. And these unattractive girls very often also are able to be with very attractive guy. I see it daily.

Funny, how many sexy girls are suspicious towards sexy guys.





Jefferson added to this post, 3 minutes and 2 seconds later...

take your stereotypical bookish intellectual INTJ in female form, pretend she is really hot. Being an introvert, she is probably not going to want all that attention, .......... she is acting like a snob.

:loveeyes:

[gavi]

nice guys (not mediocre guys) generally finish last (exceptions apply if they meet a saint of a girl or work in a rare environent in which they are not penalised).

They are usually the ones blissfully marrying the 'now serious' ex-prostitute and paying for decades for kids that are not their own.
They are the ones mysteriously slow to be promoted or with a compensation lower than their colleagues.

Nobody respects them and most people want to have them around to use them.

Nice girls tend to have a much better fate as they tend to be respected and to inspire good feelings from all guys (even playboys feel so bad that they end up not taking advantage of them, most of the times).

[Samoan Corleone]

nice guys (not mediocre guys) generally finish last (exceptions apply if they meet a saint of a girl or work in a rare environent in which they are not penalised).

They are usually the ones blissfully marrying the 'now serious' ex-prostitute and paying for decades for kids that are not their own.

I wonder who of the nice guy and the former prostitute can do better.

Nobody respects them and most people want to have them around to use them.

Well then you could argue that there's a need for nice guys in society. I mean, if every guy had backbone the poor users would lose...and become "lusers". :laugh:

[liquidzilla]

As far as I've seen women don't fall for horrible guys, or if they do they leave the relationship quickly (apart from ones with low self esteem ect).
I have yet to meet a genuinely nice guy (sad, I know). All the guys who've been nice to me have wanted me to date them, I'm not talking about one or two though, many many guys pretend to be much nicer than they really are to get a girl.
This is also true for women though. Most women hide their faults (physical ones under makeup and mental ones by repression).
So...I don't think genuinely nice guys would finish last, no. I think fake guys finish last, as a girl wont accept their flaws once they've experienced a time without them, and as the flaws build the girl will get further and further away and the fake guy will lose her.
I think the whole ''thing'' of girls liking mean guys is probably more to do with liking honesty.

[Landrick]

As far as I've seen women don't fall for horrible guys, or if they do they leave the relationship quickly (apart from ones with low self esteem ect).
I have yet to meet a genuinely nice guy (sad, I know). All the guys who've been nice to me have wanted me to date them, ...

The FP types are the most needy of all. And, as for the rest -- let's put it this way, aside some of the Js, they all want validation. Everyone wants to feel good and most women are of the P type. Therefore, while not speaking in absolutes, generally, women will subject themselves to ill treatment for some mis-guided belief that they can get a fellow to like 'em.

It took me a long time to understand this. Puberty and lack of a constant, caring father figure does more damage to women future relationships with the wrong guys than the wrong guys themselves. Low self-esteem deepened by his rejection causes 'em to dwell in a messed up relationship even more.

The flip side of it ... they have blinders on when they see a nice guy. D*mn it women, he's too nice to come on to you! Take the initiative and pitch him a little game. Because that nice guy that smiles, but only bids you a good morning is afraid to ask for your number.

[szek]

I think the problem is that the "nice" guys are improperly defining their weaknesses. It isn't the fact that they are nice which loses them the race, but the fact that all too often they are delusional in thinking that niceness alone will win her heart.

The "nice" guys I know are usually lacking in some aspect of their characters which makes them less appealing than their competition who is also nice, but displays it naturally alongside other qualities. The "nice" guy appears to try too hard to be nice, and doesn't seem to be able to throw some masculinity in the mix.

What I draw from this is that "nice" guys aren't necessarily any nicer, they simply bolster that aspect of themselves to compensate for other weaknesses. They tend to also have a very boy-band idealistic view on relationships to think that they would never hurt the girl. It is usually their cemented opinion that they could never make the mistakes that her ex-boyfriend made, or that he would never be angry at her, when sometimes they simply just lack the experience to understand the reality of relationships.

I don't want to be stereotyping all nice guys. This is simply based on my exposure to some guys I know who claim their efforts are never rewarded for the reason that they are nice. It can be a vicious cycle for them as they have clung to a girl for years hoping one day that the signs he thinks he sees will eventuate into something real. Not always entirely their fault, but it is something they need to snap out of.

[demaugustus]

I use to think that I finished last sometimes with certain women because I was "nice". Then I learned that the women who thought I was "nice" and "befriended" me were too stupid to realize how much of a devil I am...Most of them anyway.

[R31gnofph3r]

"Nice guy" is a term that can mean two different things, so instead of argueing about the terms, I'll post a few articles here... the last two have an obvious bias, but they do have some good points.

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[Takeru]

Mediocre guy? :laugh:

I have been told that I am a kind and gentle dude since forever. So then why am I unable to get people? The same people that called me kind and gentle also called me kind of cold and distant... cold being that I don't really show emotions. When that happens they don't know if I am mad or whatever. They just don't really know me too well... except for the kind and gentle part.


Landrick, INFPs and INTPs tend to judge people easily. What is this person's motive for asking? Why is this person asking me out? What is this person's point? From my understanding, INFJs and INTJs have tended to look at people objectively first before getting subjective. That is coming from the INFJ or INFP site. It is even noted that Fi and Ti are judging types while Ni isn't too judgmental. The moment INFPs and INTPs see something fishy. They will stop right there.

While INFPs DO tend to be needy, they also live in the paradoxical line of not needing anybody if they so choose (I call this the INFP curse... needing people but don't really want to be needy of people... if any.) Most INFP only want people who they feel understands him/her. We could care a little less about random people and aren't like our ENFP cousins that tend to take hit after hit of constant battering for bad guys that just use them.

I don't know about the INTP lines of using Ti, but Fi tends to judge people. If Fi feels like something is not right, like the person in front of them, they will try to disassociate.

[ToC]

I'm sorry to say it, but I really do think that "nice guys" come in, if not last, behind the rest of the pack.

There is a difference between being a nice guy and being a nice guy.

I am nice, polite, respectful of boundaries and so forth, but I am not a nice guy.

A nice guy is an insecure nobody who has little self-confidence, likes to please others, has no ambition beyond acceptance, and is generally used as an emotional tampon by the taken women he's around.

Occasionally said nice guy might be the rebound guy for some girl who just got dumped and is menstruating, but most nice guys do not get the best cuts of beef, so to speak.

It may not be right, but from what I've seen it's true.

[Causa Mortis]

I'm my experience, I do well being a good natured but not ingratiating or obsequious guy. I also am candid about my intentions with a woman, which is I think another reason women dont' like "nice guys."

Be a man, be candid, have your life together, talk to women and you will do fine.

[technicalintj]

Since we're labeling 'nice' as a mediocre quality is it safe to label 'being a dick' a mediocre quality too?





technicalintj added to this post, 44 minutes and 5 seconds later...

I think this thread is another case of "mental weakness." Too many false dichotomies. It's not you're either a dick and have it your way or be a doormat and let her be the male in the relationship. It is possible to have a relationship that's mutually beneficial.

[Nomadic]

I'll venture to say that if you're going to punish a person you're just getting to know by painting them with the same brush as someone else, the new relationship isn't going to work out in the long term.

I'll make one sweeping generalization - starting any sentence with "all women..." or "all men..." are counterproductive pigeonholing efforts when we're talking about billions of individuals.

To respond to the OP... If "nice" means uninteresting (which is of course highly subjective and up to the potential partner to decide), if "nice" means not positively distinguishing oneself from the rest of the pack through skills and abilities, and if "nice" means not taking any risks in life but rather coasting through it apathetically, then yes, I believe a "nice" person - man or woman - will not tend to finish first.

[tokjd79]

"Finishing First" is all a matter of perspective

This thread also reminds me of what I hate about people


(not directed at you Nomadic, you just happen to be the person I posted after)

[Nomadic]

Hmm. Thanks tokjd79 - I'm not exactly a philanthropist either. :laugh:

Upon further thought, my definition of "finishing" has more to do with achieving self-imposed goals rather than races where others must be competed against, so first/middle/last actually doesn't matter to me either.

[firebee]

It's not you're either a dick and have it your way or be a doormat and let her be the male in the relationship.

Perverse curiosity requires me to ask... Just what exactly do you mean by "let her be the male in the relationship", and why is it a bad thing?

[Il Prodigio]

I think this post is kind of silly....
It seems to be either 1 of 2 things. Girls or Women who choose the bad-boy stereotype either genuinely want that out of a mate, in which case I cannot fault them for their attraction. OR, They are immature and have no self-esteem. The same goes for Men choosing "bad" women.

I just finished college, and all though I am still relatively young(22) I have just completed a part of my life where I was constantly in contact with other men and women. I've watched all the interaction and I see it all the time. Their are a lot of people out there who are shady in general, it doesn't matter if you are a guy or a girl.

Ive seen both sexes do stupid things, Ive seen guys be with girls that aren't right for them and treat them like shit. Ive also seen what seems like "really good girls" be with complete jackasses over and over and over again. After a while it is kind of funny to watch, being on the outside always.

I wouldn't say being a nice guy/girl means that you are not attractive and have nothing to bring to the table, which is what the beginning of this thread seemed to convey. That is foolish and you are changing the definition of nice to suit your own personal beliefs if that is the case.

Trust me. I work with someone who is a perfect example. A girl just got hired at my work. Shes really pretty and fun to talk to. This is what I thought at first, oh what a cool person. She is 19, and I started to talk to her because I was attracted to her. Shes dating a 34 year old man. At this point I lost all attraction and realized that she is a sucker, and the guy that she is dating is a total loser.

Too many people are headcases in general. If a girl/guy prefers a "bad-girl/boy" type that slaps her/him around every once in a while, cheats on him/her, or treats him/her like crap, that person is just dumb and you should be glad that you are not with them.

[AceBrown]

Wow. Ressurrection.

I think "nice" and "mediocre" guys fall into the same boat for me. We all know, (or should know), that this is a gross generalization anyway. Like technicalintj said, an "asshole" could be labeled as a "mediocre" guy too. I think I said this a while back, but I think the ratio is sorta like 67% to 33% in favor of an "asshole".

Funny thing, I had a long conversation with one of my female college buddies about "nice gals" about 2 weeks ago. We sorta came to the mutual conclusion that "nice gals" finish last ;) . From my personal experience, there are the nice girls that can't find guys and the nice girls that get treated like CRAP by guys. Like I told my friend, most nice girls come off as initially bland and naive to me. (Maybe the women feel this way towards nice guys?). Most guys will not chase a girl who has the "do not approach" look(this is big)...most guys will not chase a girl if they KNOW they will have to wait a long time for sex(this is big too)...most guys will not chase a girl if they're not into activities we think are fun. There was this one nice girl I was attracted with...she is probably the only girl I know who can look extremely beautiful one moment and look/act extremely awkward the next. I became extremely unattracted with her when a group of friends, including us, was discussing sex :rolleyes: and this 20-year old lady acted like a 6-year old kid.

I will say the only major difference is that most nice girls are used physically by guys while nice guys are used emotionally...from my observations.

*Side Note* One of my best friends, stereotypical nice guy, finally found a steady, nice girlfriend about three days ago. I was extremely happy for him! He's around 25 years old now.

[Polymath]

Like I told my friend, most nice girls come off as bland and naive to me.

They usually come off that way at first, but when you get to know them better, they almost always turn out to have immensely deeper and more interesting personalities than the rest FME and IMO.

[Il Prodigio]

I dont understand. What do you mean by good or nice guy/girl?

does this mean physical attractiveness? Does it mean unwillingness to break the law, does it mean treats others with respect? Does it mean actually has a plan of action in life? does it mean they dont lie, cheat and steal?

What your saying is................Boring people finish last. Seriously this nice guy/girl good guy/girl thing is ridiculous because everyone is just applying pejorative connotations to something that is meant to have a positive meaning.

[Nikonman]

I think it depends on how you define "nice guy." If you mean the guy who lets others take advantage of him without standing up for himself, and who excuses it under the guise of being too nice, then yes, he will usually finish last. If you mean the guy who simply doesn't screw people over, who is generally polite, respectful and even kind hearted unless circumstances demand otherwise, then I don't think that guy finishes last when it comes to career success or women. I know way too many successful nice guys to believe that.

There are, however, a few women I know who are attracted to the "bad boy" in a very unhealthy way. Those women like the excitement of the bad boy, but they have repeatedly ended up hurt after getting crapped all over by the bad boys they thought they could tame. It seems like they think they are so special that the exciting bad boy will change for them, and it will be some major accomplishment proving their worth as women. I think the extreme examples of this are the women who are drawn to men in prison, and there are lots of those. How freaking crazy is it to be drawn to a man in prison? They seem to think the criminal has just not met the "right woman" for whom he will follow society's rules. Yeah, right, keep dreaming.

I work with a 48 y/o woman who is still single and quite unhappy, in large part because she is only attracted to younger bad boys who couldn't care less about a long term relationship with her. If they are interested at all, it is to see just how much fun she might be in the sack, and once they've reached the sexual limits with her (like "no, I won't shoot a porno or do a gang bang with you"), they move on. It is like watching a car wreck sometimes. She would like to be married, and she will admit that none of these men to whom she is attracted are likely to ever marry her. I think she is nuts. And unfortunately I know a couple of women who are very similar to her in this regard.

[AceBrown]

They usually come off that way at first, but when you get to know them better, they almost always turn out to have immensely deeper and more interesting personalities than the rest FME and IMO.

Oh crap, I meant initially as well. I thought I had that in there. Lemme edit that...I agree, I have a good bit of female friends with diverse and interesting personalities. But, most of them wind up as just friends. This is just me personally though.

I dont understand. What do you mean by good or nice guy/girl?

does this mean physical attractiveness? Does it mean unwillingness to break the law, does it mean treats others with respect? Does it mean actually has a plan of action in life? does it mean they dont lie, cheat and steal?

What your saying is................Boring people finish last. Seriously this nice guy/girl good guy/girl thing is ridiculous because everyone is just applying pejorative connotations to something that is meant to have a positive meaning.

Ha! You might have to read all the way back to page 1 to figure this all out.

And yes, boring and uninteresting people finish last.

[Samoan Corleone]

Maybe this is more relevant to my thread about Nice Guys than it is to this one (which I don't feel like digging up again, like Hulk Hogan digging up his career every few years), but has anyone seen the documentary The King of Kong? It IS possible for the nice guy to triumph over the prick.

[EarthBound]

You, sir, are on to something.
They are more often than not, "mediocre."
"Interesting guys" finish first.
"Boring guys" finish last.
Ask any lady and that is how she'll sort these two types of guys.

[curiousgeorge01]

Well I define nice guys as guy who have it together, emotionally, financially, and mentally, NOT a doormat. Guys who are secure and won't abuse you emotionally, physically and use underhanded tactics to get you. That doesn't sound like a weak character does it? But yes I do find that these guys often don't get the girl. I don't think they finish last in every sense of the word, I just don't think they usually get the girl they want.

The thing I've noticed about assholes is that somehow they have this power to get a girl to depend on them emotionally, and from there, the girl is pretty much helpless.

[Causa Mortis]

The thing I've noticed about assholes is that somehow they have this power to get a girl to depend on them emotionally, and from there, the girl is pretty much helpless.

I only think asshole works on girls who's relationship confidence is inflated but who's general confidence is low, ie on girls with little to offer besides a pretty face. And as a lot of pretty girls get tons of attention just for who they are, they frequently stop developing other potentialities, so this is actually a decent percentage of very physically attractive women.

[JohnDoe]

I only think asshole works on girls who's relationship confidence is inflated but who's general confidence is low, ie on girls with little to offer besides a pretty face. And as a lot of pretty girls get tons of attention just for who they are, they frequently stop developing other potentialities, so this is actually a decent percentage of very physically attractive women.
Clearly you've never known a woman who was acting stupid to be accepted but was privately quite brilliant.

[JTG]

I'm sorry. Are we talking about planet Earth here?

Nice guys don't finish last. Nice guys don't finish at all...

quoted from the first page. i think the thread was won early on.

in all honesty though, nice guys do finish last. if a guy is patient, forgiving, and un-needy then most of the time people will take that to mean they can string him along, piss him off without worry, and ignore the fact that he has needs (whether it be for friendship or otherwise)

even disregarding the romantic angle, i had many many friends dump all over me when i fit the "nice guy" stereotype. they knew i wouldn't hold a grudge if they did something to piss me off. they knew i'd hang around and wait if they made overlapping plans and felt like pushing mine off till late. they knew i wouldn't complain if, heaven forbid, i had a problem or needed help with something.

sometimes you just have to be impatient, unforgiving, and needy. even if i don't really feel the need to display those behaviors (it's rare that i'm impatient, unforgiving, or needy) i still do it sometimes just to keep people in check... because sometimes people think if they can get away with treating you badly or disregarding your needs that somehow makes it okay to do it habitually

i'll agree with ace's post above saying that when it comes to getting used, women are more often used physically while men are more often used emotionally

[Anhedonic Lake]

Relevant xkcd that I'm surprised no one has posted before
To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I think that pretty much sums it up really. The guy in this comic feels inferior and believes he can't compete on a level footing so he's using a different strategy. It's a bit like how an inferior militia will use guerrilla warfare against a large force to compensate for their weaknesses.

[clipse]

yes except the only difference is that guerrilla warfare actually works sometimes

the funny part I didn't realize at first is when he says "But he doesn't respect you!" it shows how he patronizes her and doesn't actually respect her decision of a simple yes/no for a relationship at the beginning. so he's ultimately a hypocrite.

[mrStevens]

W...T...H...

You guys can't be serious. I really thought this thread was a try at sarcasm but y'all really think that you have to be an asshole to find a girl and guys who want to be friendzone material are wusses? Where are you finding these people? The majority (and when I say majority I mean 3 fourths) of the girls I've dated were brilliant, attractive, and wanted the nice guy. And I'm talking about guys who are polite, care about people's feelings, and don't have a need to dominate the other person.

[Samoan Corleone]

W...T...H...

You guys can't be serious. I really thought this thread was a try at sarcasm but y'all really think that you have to be an asshole to find a girl and guys who want to be friendzone material are wusses? Where are you finding these people? The majority (and when I say majority I mean 3 fourths) of the girls I've dated were brilliant, attractive, and wanted the nice guy. And I'm talking about guys who are polite, care about people's feelings, and don't have a need to dominate the other person.

Yes, me too, but there are some girls who love bad guys. They love being cheated on, ignored, and all that other stuff. They're the ones goody-two-shoes like me steer clear of.

[Prunesquallor]

W...T...H...

You guys can't be serious. I really thought this thread was a try at sarcasm but y'all really think that you have to be an asshole to find a girl and guys who want to be friendzone material are wusses? Where are you finding these people? The majority (and when I say majority I mean 3 fourths) of the girls I've dated were brilliant, attractive, and wanted the nice guy. And I'm talking about guys who are polite, care about people's feelings, and don't have a need to dominate the other person.

It's mainly an ego-boosting exercise to help people deal with rejection. "She rejected me because I'm so awesome and she doesn't appreciate me."

Intjs and dating. Not such a good mix.

[DevLight]

This "myth" is subjective.

Not all "nice guys" are the same. There are ones that, like others have said, actually show their personalitiy and aren't afraid of rejection. They contribute to a conversation, and go against the grain if it goes against what they believe.

Then there are the nice guy doormats. The "Yes man" guys. The guys that will never challenge your thinking, will never stimulate you mentally. They just role over and play dead for you. These guys do finish last. The funny thing is that these guys are actually really genuine people. They are just to self concious of themselves, that they don't participate in a conversation around people they are trying to impress.

I was once a "doormat". It just takes time to devlop your own beliefs, and your own confidence. Once you get some confidence about who you are, then you'll be the nice guy who can show what he's all about. You'll have alot more success in the dating field if you can accurately express who you are, and what you represent.

[timetraveler]

Poor guys finish last, it has nothing to do with nice and mean. It's rich and poor.

[braeden]

There's a difference in being nice because you want to and because you have to.

In other words:
It's attractive if you broadcast that you're a high-value man, who wants to be nice to people who are nice to you. It's not attractive if you broadcast that you're a low-value man, who has to be nice to everyone no matter how they treat you.

[Axion004]

Nice guys don't finish last. Nice guys never finish last, actually. And I mean the genuinely nice ones who don't try to befriend you in hopes that you'll sleep with them one day.

What happens is that mediocre guys actually finish last.

I have seen countless numbers of genuinely sweet and friendly (and not all that attractive physically) guys get girlfriends (friends ask THEM out sometimes!).

I've also met players who hooked up with a new girl every week and acted like the sweetest, most polite people I have ever met. They weren't jerks at all. They acted as "nice guys" and got exactly what they wanted.

If you're a man and no one's into you, then I am sorry to say this (not really): You are not a nice guy. You are a mediocre guy.

Somehow though, people would rather ignore the entire truth of the matter and instead blame things on everybody else. While this is easy to do, it is also ineffective and doesn't begin to solve the problem (e.g.: you work at it).

I see it happen all too often. The inept idiot blames the other party entirely, despite the fact that he's the one with all the defects in personality and appearances. What foolish, foolish self-delusion and weakness.

Disagree? or Agree? Anyone?

Nice guys may not finish last but "Bad Boys" and "Jerks" who treat woman like garbage will finish first in nine out of ten situations.

We have all seen it happen ever since the beginning of the 8th grade.

So all the Nice/Mediocre guys will finish behind the bad boys.

Why exactly does the young female population like the bad boys so much?

I don't know, I'm not a female.

[JohnDoe]

Nice guys may not finish last but "Bad Boys" and "Jerks" who treat woman like garbage will finish first in nine out of ten situations.

We have all seen it happen ever since the beginning of the 8th grade.

So all the Nice/Mediocre guys will finish behind the bad boys.

Why exactly does the young female population like the bad boys so much?

I don't know, I'm not a female.

God damn is this thread still alive?
I'll make it simple. "Nice" guys don't finish first because they don't ask for what they want. It really is that simple.

[mrStevens]

God damn is this thread still alive?
I'll make it simple. "Nice" guys don't finish first because they don't ask for what they want. It really is that simple.

Introverted != Nice

There are a lot of introverted assholes too. Just because someone doesn't ask for what they want doesn't automatically make them a nice guy.

[JohnDoe]

Introverted != Nice

There are a lot of introverted assholes too. Just because someone doesn't ask for what they want doesn't automatically make them a nice guy.

No but most people who are "nice" are too deferential to be interesting.

[mrStevens]

Nice guys may not finish last but "Bad Boys" and "Jerks" who treat woman like garbage will finish first in nine out of ten situations.

We have all seen it happen ever since the beginning of the 8th grade.

So all the Nice/Mediocre guys will finish behind the bad boys.

Why exactly does the young female population like the bad boys so much?

I don't know, I'm not a female.

Again I disagree. It's possible that bad boys are preferred but it sure isn't nine out of ten. If I were to pull an imaginary number out of the air I would guess it is closer to six out of ten.

[Samoan Corleone]

Nice guys may not finish last but "Bad Boys" and "Jerks" who treat woman like garbage will finish first in nine out of ten situations.

We have all seen it happen ever since the beginning of the 8th grade.

So all the Nice/Mediocre guys will finish behind the bad boys.

Why exactly does the young female population like the bad boys so much?

I don't know, I'm not a female.

In defense of the smart girls with good self-esteem that I know, only girls with problems go out with "jerks". Guys who have nothing to bring to the table, like no personality, intelligence, looks, or whatever, have no pulling power, are the "mediocre" ones.

Guys who let the girl they like use them and walk all over them in the hopes of one day getting into their pants are the "nice" ones.

Then there are the guys who have character and are decent human beings. They usually end up with other decent human beings of the opposite sex (or same sex, if that's their thing).

God damn is this thread still alive?

As long as new people keep registering, this thread will always make a comeback. I, for one, intend to milk it for my own personal post whoredom everytime that happens.

[Axion004]

Again I disagree. It's possible that bad boys are preferred but it sure isn't nine out of ten. If I were to pull an imaginary number out of the air I would guess it is closer to six out of ten.

I can only speak from personal observation. Over 90% of the females I have met in College will only go for the "bad boy" type. It could be because I really don't have a lot of conversation with the other type of girls considering most of the females I know are not intellectual.

By the way it goes both ways:

The young female tends to be attracted to the bad boy.
The young male tends to be attracted to the pretty girl.

[tsh]

In defense of the smart girls with good self-esteem that I know, only girls with problems go out with "jerks". Guys who have nothing to bring to the table, like no personality, intelligence, looks, or whatever, have no pulling power, are the "mediocre" ones.

In my experience, high class, sweet women do find jerks rather attractive (at least in the beginning of the relationship). This is not because they are shallow or anything, but because most of the jerks tend to be confident, witty and playful. These are three universal attributes that all women find attractive. That's why my dating persona has always certain playful jerkness to it.