The Irony of Women

[wardo]

When asked, and in my opinion, most women will say that they want some combination of the following characteristics in a man: Intelligence, Honesty and Humor.

But does anyone else find it ironic that women want...

Intelligence, but the vast majority of women don't know what to say or do with an intelligent man? Try asking an average woman about her opinions on Marx, Nietzsche, Freud, Jung, chemotaxis, Taiwan, Tibet, the Dalai Lama, the Pope, Religion, whatever, anything besides her new hairstyle.

Honesty, but most women lie, cheat, gossip and stab each other in the back.

Humor, but the vast majority of women are not funny. Kathy Griffin Q.E.D.

Maybe women just want someone to complete them, someone who has all of the traits they lack? Therefore women must be unfunny stupid liars... ok the feminists can hack away now.

[Quite8the8bell]

I agree with this. I am female but I don't consider myself stupid, I hate gossip, and am very honest (Brutally, in fact.) I am just not the stereotypical female. But, most females are as you explained which drives me crazy. Women are ironic creatures, most of them anyway. I prefer the term hypocritical, though.

[Amphorian]

I actually agree and I'm female. Mind you I tend to graitative and hangout with more intelligent and honest people. Most females I've come across (well at least more so the younger ones or people that just care about their egos) aren't in the 'wow' factor area. I don't know why they believe they're going get that rich, awesome, fun-loving, strong, caring, intelligent, funny, handsome man. o_O

I've overheard (well I was sitting at the table with them on break) and this one young lady who is actually intelligent (but choose not to use her capacity) decided dumbing herself down, looking pretty and being mantipulative was the way to go to get those type of guys. O_O

True story, I swear. Which is worse. O_o

[Storm]

Replace "women" with "people" and you might have a more honest (although still extremely pessimistic) statement.

[hyper84]

Someone seems bitter. Take it easy. Maybe you're running in the wrong circles, young and mature for your age, or living in a small isolated town. I don't really know. But there are smart, honest (well, no one is perfect), and funny women out there (there are plenty on this forum). You just need to look in the right places. But anyhow, I guess your post is more of a vent than anything else.

[Synamon]

I made a few changes, to show how ridiculous your post is.
When asked, and in my opinion, most men will say that they want some combination of the following characteristics in a woman: Intelligence, Honesty and Humor.

But does anyone else find it ironic that men want...

Intelligence, but the vast majority of men don't know what to say or do with an intelligent woman? Try asking an average man about his opinions on Marx, Nietzsche, Freud, Jung, chemotaxis, Taiwan, Tibet, the Dalai Lama, the Pope, Religion, whatever, anything besides his new car.

Honesty, but most men lie, cheat, gossip and slap each other on the back.

Humor, but the vast majority of men are not funny. Ben Stiller Q.E.D.

Maybe men just want someone to complete them, someone who has all of the traits they lack? Therefore men must be unfunny stupid liars... ok the chauvinists can hack away now.

[dalidaisy]

This doesn't describe me, nor my opposite minded best friend. I prefer these qualities & have them as well. My best friend doesn't really have them, but she doesn't value them as much either.

Perhaps there are a lot of "unfunny stupid liars" who want men who can teach them things, not lie to them & make them laugh? Do they have to offer the same in return? I wouldn't think so unless the guy is seeking the same, which, I guess, some aren't, because (at least some of) these women are finding dates & relationships.

[Quite8the8bell]

dalidaisy is right. Women must be doing something right even if most of them are "unfunny stupid liars." Just a thought: What exactly would happen if women weren't the way they are? I have noticed that the men that I have been with like to know more than me, almost like a competition. Perhaps women know that if the man wants to be smarter than the women she must dumbify herself in order to please him.

[Storm]

Perhaps women know that if the man wants to be smarter than the women she must dumbify herself in order to please him.

How sad that some people would dumb themselves down for a mate. People who feel they must noticeably be smarter than their partner are small and have little confidence. I doubt this "dumbing down" is as prevalent as popular culture myths would have one believe.

[rara avis]

When asked, and in my opinion, most women will say that they want some combination of the following characteristics in a man: Intelligence, Honesty and Humor.

But does anyone else find it ironic that women want...

Intelligence, but...

Honesty, but...

Humor, but...

Who doesn't want these things, but...?

These are, to some extent, subjective. Everyone enjoys their own sense of humor, by definition. They fact that you don't find theirs funny, nor they yours, means little - except that if yours is unique, too bad for you. People qualify their own levels of honesty and intelligence. They choose someone relative to their own POV, and often feel better about themselves when accepted by someone who they think is cooler than they are, in whatever regard.

I agree with Synamon and Storm... this is not a gender-specific observation. People at large can seem really dumb to each other. The more unusual you are, the more often this occurs.

[2obvious]

I agree with this.
Wai--Please don't humor this hyperbolic style of expression. It's too...touchy-feely, as a thesis.
When asked, and in my opinion, most women will say that they want some combination of the following characteristics in a man: Intelligence, Honesty and Humor.
(As is usually the case) I think the contradiction lies in language, not intent.

By "intelligence," I bet "most women" mean intellectual substance. --But substance is, by its very nature, subjective.
"Honesty" is such a dubious term that I am wont to elaborate.
And "humor" can be summed up in the general term that she would like to find her partner entertaining...amusingly so, even.

All very subjective.

The real tragedy is that by continuing to interact in such oblique ways we as human beings make it really difficult to connect.
I made a few changes, to show how ridiculous your post is.
(Your heart's in the right place, Syn, but intelligence, honesty, and humor aren't the top three on most guys' list, so the proverbial "script" has not been effectively flipped.)

[PeterIMC]

Replace "women" with "people" and you might have a more honest (although still extremely pessimistic) statement.

This is actually true. It's not women in general that are like that, it's people in general that are like that. But the more rational types are easier to deal with if you´re a rational yourself.


(Don't know if this makes sense, but when non-rationals (feelers especially) complain about other people not making sense, it would be just plain funny if it wasn't so stupid and predictable.)

[Vagrant]

Replace "women" with "people" and you might have a more honest (although still extremely pessimistic) statement.

Agreed. I've met quite a few guys who are unwittingly dull, dishonest, and boring. Same for girls.

The thing is -- not only are the values you described what society expects you to want, they're also terribly vague, as was mentioned previously by 2obvious. When I look for desirable traits in a girl, I actually look for some very specific cue -- my current one is "a slight dash of crazy." If they're intelligent, funny, and honest, that'll come out in due time. No, the slight dash of crazy is a much better trait in finding what I actually want.

[JustMel]

I agree with this. I am female but I don't consider myself stupid, I hate gossip, and am very honest (Brutally, in fact.) I am just not the stereotypical female. But, most females are as you explained which drives me crazy. Women are ironic creatures, most of them anyway. I prefer the term hypocritical, though.

Right there with you. I'm female but not one of the typical females that is interested in gossip, etc.

I suspect the OP will find that not all women are truly that way--some pretend to be to survive in the real world with the others but there are a lot of us who just go our own way and don't care about "fitting in" and being someone else's idea of the typical female.

If a person has to "dumb themselves down to be with another person" then there isn't room enough in the relationship for two people and an overinflated ego so something must go.

[skycloud86]

Intelligence, but the vast majority of women don't know what to say or do with an intelligent man? Try asking an average woman about her opinions on Marx, Nietzsche, Freud, Jung, chemotaxis, Taiwan, Tibet, the Dalai Lama, the Pope, Religion, whatever, anything besides her new hairstyle.

Let's see it from their point of view -

Intelligence, but the vast majority of women don't know what to say or do with an intelligent man? Try asking an average man on his opinions on Marie Curie, Jane Austen, Emma Goldman, Florence Nightingale, Mary Seacole, Elizabeth Fry, Aung Sang Suu Kyi, Indira Ghandi, Emmeline Pankhurst, chemotaxis, Taiwan, Tibet, the Dalai Lama, the Pope, Religion, whatever, anything besides his new car.

Honesty, but most women lie, cheat, gossip and stab each other in the back.

And we don't? See almost every male politician in history for examples.

Humor, but the vast majority of women are not funny. Kathy Griffin Q.E.D.

How about the female actresses in every successful sitcom? Or Tina Fey, Ellen DeGeneres, Sarah Silverman, all contemporary comediennes?

Maybe women just want someone to complete them, someone who has all of the traits they lack? Therefore women must be unfunny stupid liars... ok the feminists can hack away now.

Then we must be emotionless, childish cheats, surely?

[Obsidean]

When asked, and in my opinion, most women will say that they want some combination of the following characteristics in a man: Intelligence, Honesty and Humor.

But does anyone else find it ironic that women want...

Intelligence, but the vast majority of women don't know what to say or do with an intelligent man? Try asking an average woman about her opinions on Marx, Nietzsche, Freud, Jung, chemotaxis, Taiwan, Tibet, the Dalai Lama, the Pope, Religion, whatever, anything besides her new hairstyle.

Honesty, but most women lie, cheat, gossip and stab each other in the back.

Humor, but the vast majority of women are not funny. Kathy Griffin Q.E.D.

Maybe women just want someone to complete them, someone who has all of the traits they lack? Therefore women must be unfunny stupid liars... ok the feminists can hack away now.

Just turn gay

[alphawolf]

When asked, and in my opinion, most women will say that they want some combination of the following characteristics in a man: Intelligence, Honesty and Humor.

But does anyone else find it ironic that women want...

Intelligence, but the vast majority of women don't know what to say or do with an intelligent man? Try asking an average woman about her opinions on Marx, Nietzsche, Freud, Jung, chemotaxis, Taiwan, Tibet, the Dalai Lama, the Pope, Religion, whatever, anything besides her new hairstyle.

Honesty, but most women lie, cheat, gossip and stab each other in the back.

Humor, but the vast majority of women are not funny. Kathy Griffin Q.E.D.

Maybe women just want someone to complete them, someone who has all of the traits they lack? Therefore women must be unfunny stupid liars... ok the feminists can hack away now.


NOTE that there is a HUGE disparity between what women say and what women do. They say to a man (or their own friends) "I'd never do this, I'd never do that"... but if you make them feel something romantic for you, they will do all of this and all of that in a heartbeat. The things they say after they are already hooked on your penis do reflect their internal reality a little bit more...

The man who is successful with women learns to hear what women say, but to pay attention to what they do. A woman wants to know that you do listen to her, but doesn't want you to call her out for contradicting herself when it comes to romance. Even though she knows that you know, directly calling her out on it for no good reason will be the end of the romance. Keep this awareness and record of words to yourself until you actually find yourself in need of emotional ammunition. By paying attention to what they do, you are armed with critical information regarding how to treat them. If you treat women according to what they say, especially before they are hooked on your rod, you have already lost the game.

[curiousgeorge01]

NOTE that there is a HUGE disparity between what women say and what women do. They say to a man (or their own friends) "I'd never do this, I'd never do that"... but if you make them feel something romantic for you, they will do all of this and all of that in a heartbeat. The things they say after they are already hooked on your penis do reflect their internal reality a little bit more...

The man who is successful with women learns to hear what women say, but to pay attention to what they do. A woman wants to know that you do listen to her, but doesn't want you to call her out for contradicting herself when it comes to romance. Even though she knows that you know, directly calling her out on it for no good reason will be the end of the romance. Keep this awareness and record of words to yourself until you actually find yourself in need of emotional ammunition. By paying attention to what they do, you are armed with critical information regarding how to treat them. If you treat women according to what they say, especially before they are hooked on your rod, you have already lost the game.


LOL yup! I have this issue is why I keep striking out! It's like didn't you say...and I just did that so what's the problem?? Damn women...

I have to agree with the OP, women are HIGHLY contradictory, and I think has to do with what Alpha said. I see a lot of capable attractive men out there but women don't want them! And then they complain about not getting someone like that when in reality they just want what FITS THEIR lifestyle, not what they say they want.

[jikin]

It does sound like you're looking in the wrong places. There are women out there who are intelligent, honest, and who have a sense of humor.

Granted, there are plenty who don't, but I wouldn't call them hypocritical. Think of it this way:

intelligent: They want someone of near equal intelligence to them. If she does not have the intelligence of a rocket scientist she probably doesn't want to be with one. It's doubtfull she considers herself stupid.

honesty: When they ask for this in a man they are specifically referring to a romantic relationship. She doesn't want him lying or gossiping about her specifically. Other relationships outside of of the two of them don't matter, as long as he treats her well in this respect.

humor: This doesn't mean she wants a stand-up comedian. She wants a man who doesn't take himself or life extremely seriously. She wants a man who can take a joke without getting defensive. She doesn't want an up-tight stick in the mud.

[Merle]

This thread is just bait right? I shouldn't post....

Blah...

But what you're saying is: men look for big tits, high voices, and a vagina because they don't have them and women look for humour, intelligence, and honesty because they don't have them. Well, that's so blatantly true, how could I possibly argue...

[wardo]

I love how the first people to agree with my post are in fact female. Delicious :p

I made a few changes, to show how ridiculous your post is.

Hi Synamon, I've made a few changes to your few changes just to show how men really are:

When asked, and in my opinion, most men will say that they want some combination of the following characteristics in a woman: Bust, Hips, Legs

But does anyone else find it ironic that men want...

Busts, but the majority of men don't have man-boobs?

Hips, but the majority of men don't have man-hips?

Legs, but the vast majority of men don't have... ok this one doesn't work :laugh:

Maybe men just want someone to complete them, someone who has all of the traits they lack? Therefore men must be amazing.

Wai--Please don't humor this hyperbolic style of expression. It's too...touchy-feely, as a thesis.


Oh come, if you are not going to have any "humor" my friend, women will not want to copulate with you. Have you not been taking notes?

Let's see it from their point of view -

How about the female actresses in every successful sitcom? Or Tina Fey, Ellen DeGeneres, Sarah Silverman, all contemporary comediennes?


Ok I know that you are trying to construct a counterargument to my statement that funny females don't exist but... Ellen DeGeneres? Sarah Silverman? Let's be realistic here, the bar is set far far far lower for any female who wishes to be a comedian than any man.

Just turn gay

If I did, would you be interested?

[Prunesquallor]

Men are just as bad - except they are less likely to want an intelligent, funny girl. Stereotypically speaking, since that's apparently what we're doing here.

[soanyway]

I think that there are different categories in types of women. Classifications I would say. I do it when it comes to men. I for one will not even bother making friends with women who are needy or gossips. That's one of the biggest peeves I have about other women. I do feel like men are afraid of strong women though. Just keep this in mind, the majority of women are like whats being discribed but not all of us are. The ones that are not like a "normal" woman are going to be very different and I think this is where men get confused. You guys blame women because you want the powerful strong and intelligent woman but because you don't know how to handle us, the women who are different go through life feeling unloved because of our differences. The differences are HUGE! I for one hate being put in that category but feel like if I don't behave that way no one will ever notice me!

[LionsPride]

I don't see how the OP's statement is different from the standard argument of:

I value these items. Other people don't. Ergo, other people are stupid.

The fact that people can't see that the subjective nature of their own values, feel compelled to ridicule others against those values and then cry bloody murder the moment that they are judged against someone else's personal values in exactly the same way, makes me shake my head.

I'm sure there is a woman out there that values: Marx, Nietzsche, Freud, Jung, chemotaxis, Taiwan, Tibet, the Dalai Lama, the Pope, Religion. Then there are other women that value intelligence as being able to fix the car when it breaks or managing money or knowledge of child rearing or advanced physics. There isn't some magical topic that the population of the world all equate to valuable intelligence for the sake of breeding purposes.

As for the number of people who are single and somehow unable to find any partner, there are more reasons for that then the "irony of women". Damaged goods can come in a variety of forms and perhaps, people who are unable to find a mate, any mate, should first consider that there is something they aren't providing before they point their finger at the population of the world and claim that the majority have it wrong.

[zibber]

Ok I know that you are trying to construct a counterargument to my statement that funny females don't exist but... Ellen DeGeneres? Sarah Silverman? Let's be realistic here, the bar is set far far far lower for any female who wishes to be a comedian than any man.

Is this now officially a joke topic? (Was it so from the start?)

(By "joke topic" I don't mean a topic about jokes, but itself fundamentally jestful.)

[Seriously]

I don't see how the OP's statement is different from the standard argument of:

I value these items. Other people don't. Ergo, other people are stupid.

The fact that people can't see that the subjective nature of their own values, feel compelled to ridicule others against those values and then cry bloody murder the moment that they are judged against someone else's personal values in exactly the same way, makes me shake my head.

I'm sure there is a woman out there that values: Marx, Nietzsche, Freud, Jung, chemotaxis, Taiwan, Tibet, the Dalai Lama, the Pope, Religion. Then there are other women that value intelligence as being able to fix the car when it breaks or managing money or knowledge of child rearing or advanced physics. There isn't some magical topic that the population of the world all equate to valuable intelligence for the sake of breeding purposes.

As for the number of people who are single and somehow unable to find any partner, there are more reasons for that then the "irony of women". Damaged goods can come in a variety of forms and perhaps, people who are unable to find a mate, any mate, should first consider that there is something they aren't providing before they point their finger at the population of the world and claim that the majority have it wrong.

Excellent points.

I think what are seeing here is a classic case of a man who consistently goes after shallow "hottie", gets shot down and then becomes embittered. Kind of on par with the women who cry about there being no nice guys. Self fulfilling prophecy.

[Airius]

So, what? If you've got such a problem with the female population, then maybe you need to hop on the gay train. You're not going to change people. But you can change the way you look at things, where you go, and who you meet. Not everyone is the same.

[Kris]

On a broad, general scale asking women what they want in a male partner is only going to end in disappointment when you are all of those things, but they are not suddenly responding with unbridled enthusiasm. :laugh:

I think its true for both sexes, but from my own personal experiences, women are much more susceptible to the disparity there is between what someone thinks/says they want in a partner and what actually makes them feel attracted (in the primitive logic-free sense) to someone.

Everything else you said seems to be random jibes at women in general. I don't know where/how you are meeting women, but maybe this is the source of the problem.

Anyway, its not one-sided, there are plenty of women who would have a lot things to say about the nature of men and similarly how this affects them.

[CJay]

I think he has just been meeting the wrong type of woman or trying to be funny. Sure SOME women don't know what they want and go after superficial stuff but all of my friends had grown out of that by age 16/17 except for one and she grew out of it by age 20. It is very sad if someone really feels their only asset to a relationship is their looks. I have known very smart ladies that were hot and would fully use that to their advantage to get where they wanted to be. If the guys were not so superficial they would not be picking a hot girl who was too dumb to hold their interest once he got tired of looking at her.

[LionsPride]

On a broad, general scale asking women what they want in a male partner is only going to end in disappointment when you are all of those things, but they are not suddenly responding with unbridled enthusiasm. :laugh:

I think its true for both sexes, but from my own personal experiences, women are much more susceptible to the disparity there is between what someone thinks/says they want in a partner and what actually makes them feel attracted (in the primitive logic-free sense) to someone.

See, what I hear is you saying:

As a man, when I hear women say they want something, the way I judge that something is vastly different than what they seem to go for. Ergo, they show a huge disparity between what they say they want and what they actually want.

Your mistake is assuming that what they are saying they want is measured against the same values you have and against your scale there is disparity. Against the woman's own scale, they may actually be quite consistent.

Let me explain it differently. Men, don't all date the same woman. There are a number of men that are married to a woman and the man's friends wouldn't have ever dated her. Each woman is attractive to some men and not attractive, as a partner, to others. You, Kris, as a man, don't notice the disparity in values that men have because you are not measured against them. To you, it seems that you have the same values as other men and yet, there are many women that you wouldn't date, that don't meet your criteria that other men seem to want to love and marry. The disparity is just more apparent if you are on the receiving end and have no idea what scale you are being graded on.

Women here find the argument the argument made by the OP valid for the same reason. Women here are a minority of the population and their values tend to be different from the majority of the female population. There is little wonder as to why they have noticed this "disparity" in other women. Many have even been on the receiving end of these value judgments and have been confused as a result. Whenever you are being judged against a scale you don't understand, there is going to be a cry of "the irony of so and so".

[Storm]

When asked, and in my opinion, most men will say that they want some combination of the following characteristics in a woman: Bust, Hips, Legs

If that's all you think most men are looking for, or that is all you yourself are looking for, then it's no surprise that other non-physical attributes turn out to be lacking.

[Kris]

@LionsPride:

I know exactly what you're saying, but I think you are looking at this all wrong. I honestly believe that this is one of those matters where looking at it from an objective, factual and analytical standpoint is useless. I have no desire to convince anyone though that what I'm saying is generally pretty accurate (I believe), because I was just throwing it out there, not complaining. I think people are complicated, not women specifically. :) EDIT: Actually I don't know if I'm 100% committed to that statement :laugh:

Anyway, just for the sake of it, and because I seem unable to restrain myself from interjecting my 0.02c whenever possible, my example:
> Woman says she wants nice, intelligent, funny, etc man.
> Woman constantly dates jerks, who might be intelligent, but probably not funny (to her).
> The problem is the jerks possess characteristics not in the woman's initial list that instigate, or at least contribute to, her physical attraction to the man.
> Nice, funny, intelligent men everywhere throw their arms up and say 'WTF'.

Obviously many women are not like this and its completely subjective, but it certainly doesn't hurt to at least entertain the notion in the back of your mind.

If this made no sense I apologise as its almost 2:30am here. It all makes sense in my head though and that's what counts!

[Seriously]

Has anyone ever noticed that the best way of finding out what someone is insecure about is to simply listen to them criticize others?

It's ironic that whatever someone feels most vulnerable about is what they will notice most often and quickly in others. For example, if someone is vulnerable about their height they are often quick to point out such abnormalities in others - the same applies for evaluations of maturity, wealth, social status, physical beauty etc. This seems like a subconcious projection that is often un-noticed by the person commiting it and I think partially explains why we are so quick to label others as "idiots" or "morons".

Interesting. Puts a whole different perspective on your criticism of women. ;) :devilish:

[wardo]

Interesting. Puts a whole different perspective on your criticism of women. ;) :devilish:

Brilliant. A bit unfair I must say however, to go searching for dirt on me ;)

[Prunesquallor]

@LionsPride:

I know exactly what you're saying, but I think you are looking at this all wrong. I honestly believe that this is one of those matters where looking at it from an objective, factual and analytical standpoint is useless. I have no desire to convince anyone though that what I'm saying is generally pretty accurate (I believe), because I was just throwing it out there, not complaining. I think people are complicated, not women specifically. :)

Anyway, just for the sake of it, and because I seem unable to restrain myself from interjecting my 0.02c whenever possible, my example:
> Woman says she wants nice, intelligent, funny, etc man.
> Woman constantly dates jerks, who might be intelligent, but probably not funny (to her).
> The problem is the jerks possess characteristics not in the woman's initial list that instigate, or at least contribute to, her physical attraction to the man.
> Nice, funny, intelligent men everywhere throw their arms up and say 'WTF'.

Obviously many women are not like this and its completely subjective, but it certainly doesn't hurt to at least entertain the notion in the back of your mind.

If this made no sense I apologise as its almost 2:30am here. It all makes sense in my head though and that's what counts!

You think he's a jerk, and not funny.
Maybe she thinks most of these "nice" guys are arrogant or have an entitlement complex.
Your standards are not hers, and she will see things in these jerks (and these "nice guys") that you don't, for obvious reasons.

Yes, there are women who date jerks, just as there are men who date bitches. So? That's their choice and their right. So what? Society judges men less for having low standards, so they tend to be more honest about them when that's the case, is all.

[Seriously]

Brilliant. A bit unfair I must say however, to go searching for dirt on me ;)

It's called research my friend. ;)

[curiousgeorge01]

I think its true for both sexes, but from my own personal experiences, women are much more susceptible to the disparity there is between what someone thinks/says they want in a partner and what actually makes them feel attracted (in the primitive logic-free sense) to someone.
.

Well to me, that makes the ENTIRE difference. The fact that they're more confusing makes our responses to them a bit confusing and it's a back to forth banter. I guess my point is, THEY STARTED IT. LOL.





curiousgeorge01 added to this post, 1 minutes and 21 seconds later...



Yes, there are women who date jerks, just as there are men who date bitches. So? That's their choice and their right. So what? Society judges men less for having low standards, so they tend to be more honest about them when that's the case, is all.

Well the reason why I think society judges men less is because its MORE UNDERSTANDABLE. If you get tricked by a pretty face its pretty much understood at face value. If a woman is tricked by some guy who's ugly, a jerk, but tells funny jokes that's not understood because no one can see it! Plus looks is fairly objective while personality traits can be construed to be different things; where one person sees confident, another sees arrogant.

Also you have to remember that women bear the brunt of burden for pregnancy and social taboo so yes, the social pressure to pick better IS ON THEM.

[Prunesquallor]

And again we're running into the difference between what people want and what they'll settle for. A lot of what women say they want are qualities good for a nice, long-term relationship that will last. They may not want to settle down yet, and so their fun dating standards are different from their serious dating ones, but that doesn't mean they're being dishonest. People date people who don't have all the qualities they want often because they're realistic, or because they're just having fun. This is not unusual.

[curiousgeorge01]

And again we're running into the difference between what people want and what they'll settle for. A lot of what women say they want are qualities good for a nice, long-term relationship that will last. They may not want to settle down yet, and so their fun dating standards are different from their serious dating ones, but that doesn't mean they're being dishonest. People date people who don't have all the qualities they want often because they're realistic, or because they're just having fun. This is not unusual.

Exactly but you notice how men's standards are fairly level on both? We want a pretty face to fool around with and a pretty face to marry. For a woman, its COMPLETELY different!!

[Kris]

Well I did mention the phrase 'completely subjective' so italicising the 'you' was probably not necessary ;)

Anyway, as I said before I wasn't complaining. I'm not jaded or confused or looking to change people's opinions. Its a just an alternative viewpoint as I think a lot of guys really look at this all wrong. I'm also not a chauvinist, I think its more pronounced in women because I also believe that on the whole pure physical attraction for men has a stronger correlation to specific physical attributes than for women, hence the whole process of describing said traits is simpler, and also I don't really care too much what other men are looking for in a women.

[Prunesquallor]

Well the reason why I think society judges men less is because its MORE UNDERSTANDABLE. If you get tricked by a pretty face its pretty much understood at face value. If a woman is tricked by some guy who's ugly, a jerk, but tells funny jokes that's not understood because no one can see it! Plus looks is fairly objective while personality traits can be construed to be different things; where one person sees confident, another sees arrogant.

Also you have to remember that women bear the brunt of burden for pregnancy and social taboo so yes, the social pressure to pick better IS ON THEM.

No one said these men were ugly. Just that they were jerks. If it's an ugly jerk, he's probably rich. Or not a jerk to her. Or really, really funny. Or great in bed. Or really really smart. Or any number of positive qualities you can't see because you don't want to.

Why is it more understandable for a guy get to tricked by a pretty face than a girl?

Also, birth control exists. If she's not planning to marry and have kids with the guy, then the standards she'd need to determine a good mate and father are not relevant.





Prunesquallor added to this post, 2 minutes and 57 seconds later...

Well I did mention the phrase 'completely subjective' so italicising the 'you' was probably not necessary ;)

Anyway, as I said before I wasn't complaining. I'm not jaded or confused or looking to change people's opinions. Its a just an alternative viewpoint as I think a lot of guys really look at this all wrong. I'm also not a chauvinist, I think its more pronounced in women because I also believe that on the whole pure physical attraction for men has a stronger correlation to specific physical attributes than for women, hence the whole process of describing said traits is simpler, and also I don't really care too much what other men are looking for in a women.

Yes you can have a subjective opinion about the kind of guys a women dates - the point is that your opinion is entirely irrelevant. No one cares but you. You described the situation as if your opinion was the "real" one.

[curiousgeorge01]

No one said these men were ugly. Just that they were jerks. If it's an unly jerk, he's probably rich. Or not a jerk to her. Or really, really funny. Or great in bed. Or really really smart. Or any number of positive qualities you can't see because you don't want to.

Why is it more understandable for a guy get to tricked by a pretty face than a girl?

Also, birth control exists. If she's not planning to marry and have kids with the guy, then the standards she'd need to determine a good mate and father are not relevant.

It's not more understandable if a guy gets tricked by a pretty face than a girl. But the fact is, I've noticed that most women who date poorly, the guy isn't even physically attractive! If you top off he's a jerk, most people wonder what the hell did you see in him? Which is totally understandable.

Also it's not because we don't want to see the traits, it's because most can be construed as something different and many girls see the wrong side of it. Except money of course, that's pretty plain.

Yes birth control exists, but its not foolproof! Plus if you get pregnant, a lot of women aren't willing to abort even if they think they are prior!

[Kris]

Also, FWIW I believe one of the most common traits in the 'jerks' is simply confidence, and subsequently all the trickle down effects it has on demeanor, presence, etc.

My opinion is obviously irrelevant to you. It may also be irrelevant to everyone else that reads it, but I guess you can't say - so potentially it still has merit :). Anyway, it really is just my humble opinion, albeit possibly lacking humility in its explanation. I have been working on that though, maybe within the next decade I'll be able to stop unintentionally starting debates. :laugh:

[Prunesquallor]

It's not more understandable if a guy gets tricked by a pretty face than a girl. But the fact is, I've noticed that most women who date poorly, the guy isn't even physically attractive! If you top off he's a jerk, most people wonder what the hell did you see in him? Which is totally understandable.

Yes birth control exists, but its not foolproof! Plus if you get pregnant, a lot of women aren't willing to abort even if they think they are prior!

Are you gay? Bisexual, perhaps?
If not, your opinion of these men's attractiveness is perhaps somewhat questionable. She likes what she likes.

There are also those with some low self-esteem complex, to be sure, but in both genders.

Yes, accidents happen. That doesn't change the fact that a women just looking for fun will have different standards than a woman looking to settle down and raise kids, and that this is totally ok. Expecting her to judge guys as potential fathers all the time will, frankly, rule a lot of you out.





Prunesquallor added to this post, 0 minutes and 47 seconds later...

Also, FWIW I believe one of the most common traits in the 'jerks' is simply confidence, and subsequently all the trickle down effects it has on demeanor, presence, etc.

There I agree with you.

[LaoTzu]

Generalities are dangerous grounds. But I want to play along...

If we can move up from the basic categorizations we are placing on the sexes...

Women are attracted to qualities that remind them of their key male role-models.
Men are attracted to their key female role-models.
Freud is correct, but I think his intentions/reasoning has some interpretive problems. To say men are attracted to their Mom, or women attracted to their Fathers is .... disturbing (personally I think it's silly)

What we are attracted to is that mental model of what "normal" looks like. We get trained to think of all men in relation to our Father, and all women in relation to our Mother. (Or, if or parents were bastards; some equally relevant figure who filled in what we considered to be that 'proper' role-model).

Subconsciously, we are working off of this template; and that's how we decide what normality is... we look for opposites that provide the closest fit of that
template. It's not an active thought process... it's just how we make sense of it all.

As such, our list of desirable qualities are going to vary from person to person.


I blame popular culture for our unreasonable expectations in finding a mate. We're just muddying the waters.

Besides, in a world of ~6B people to think there isn't one IDEAL person is rediculous. On the flipside, to think you're going to meet someone 100% IDEAL is equally rediculous.

Some amount of training will always be required ;)

[LionsPride]

I know exactly what you're saying, but I think you are looking at this all wrong. I honestly believe that this is one of those matters where looking at it from an objective, factual and analytical standpoint is useless.

Ah, so someone making claims that women are hypocrites in the way they pick their mates is not a topic that warrants any analytical support? I should just let you make these claims and then allow you immunity because you say so?

The reason why I think society judges men less is because its MORE UNDERSTANDABLE.

No, the reason you think it is more understandable to society is because it is more understandable to you. You are taking your own subjectivity and are applying it to society and weighting everything against that. Frankly I don't see why either sex should be so easily fooled by a pretty face or a false confidence.

Exactly but you notice how men's standards are fairly level on both? We want a pretty face to fool around with and a pretty face to marry. For a woman, its COMPLETELY different!!

Ha! If a pretty face was all that men were looking for then she with the prettiest face would win. I have seen more men fall for what was more available than any sort of pretty face rationale. Needless to say there are many women out there with pretty faces who are single and wondering why men say they want a pretty face, yet won't date her. Again, it's only when a person is being graded on someone else's value scale that they notice the disparity. Curious, if you were being graded on a man's scale, you'd notice the subjectivity of "pretty face" pretty quickly.

I'm also not a chauvinist, I think its more pronounced in women because I also believe that on the whole pure physical attraction for men has a stronger correlation to specific physical attributes than for women, hence the whole process of describing said traits is simpler, and also I don't really care too much what other men are looking for in a women.

You don't care to much what men are looking for in women, but you are still measuring their disparity against the "consistency of what men want" as if a man's values are far more realistic than a woman's, yet I'm not supposed to bring up the fallacy of that statement by pointing out that men aren't consistent in their value system either? That there aren't men who say they want a girl who can cook and look after their kids, but perpetually date bitches. Or men that want a girl who's a 'natural beauty' but expect her to shave her legs and wear a set of heels? There are all sorts of people who claim they want something, but define it in a way that is different from the rest of the population. You can't argue that women are worse by comparison, but the men's systems aren't on the table for discussion.

No one said these men were ugly. Just that they were jerks. If it's an ugly jerk, he's probably rich. Or not a jerk to her. Or really, really funny. Or great in bed. Or really really smart. Or any number of positive qualities you can't see because you don't want to.

Why is it more understandable for a guy get to tricked by a pretty face than a girl?

Yes you can have a subjective opinion about the kind of guys a women dates - the point is that your opinion is entirely irrelevant. No one cares but you. You described the situation as if your opinion was the "real" one.

Agreed.

Also, FWIW I believe one of the most common traits in the 'jerks' is simply confidence, and subsequently all the trickle down effects it has on demeanor, presence, etc.

See, you solved your own question. What you think is a "jerk" the women you are referring to actually see confidence, demeanor, presence, etc. There is no disparity there it seems that your values just don't match up with what the women are looking for. Just because you think they are a jerk, doesn't mean that everyone (men included) will see it that way.

[curiousgeorge01]

No, the reason you think it is more understandable to society is because it is more understandable to you. You are taking your own subjectivity and are applying it to society and weighting everything against that. Frankly I don't see why either sex should be so easily fooled by a pretty face or a false confidence.

Ha! If a pretty face was all that men were looking for then she with the prettiest face would win. I have seen more men fall for what was more available than any sort of pretty face rationale. Needless to say there are many women out there with pretty faces who are single and wondering why men say they want a pretty face, yet won't date her. Again, it's only when a person is being graded on someone else's value scale that they notice the disparity. Curious, if you were being graded on a man's scale, you'd notice the subjectivity of "pretty face" pretty quickly.
.

No it is not more understandable just TO ME, it's more understandable to people in general. Are you saying most people aren't smitten by a good looking face? That's a bold generalizaton. I think YOU'RE taking your POV and putting it on the world.

And no you don't understand how the male mind works. It's not THE PRETTIEST FACE that wins, it's as long as it fulfills a baseline of male desire; meaning if he needs her to look at lease a 6 out of 10, its rare he will go out with a woman below that threshold.

Men fall for what's available because they want sex! Obviously if he is less attractive, his threshold will be lower since that's all he can get (because sex is the objective and if he can't get it he's got to change his parameters)! The threshold is fairly subjective because it depends on the community he is in(as in if all the girls are ugly he still wants sex so he'll pick the prettiest out of the ugly!). But that doesn't change the fact that objective beauty still exists!

As for why women with pretty faces can't get dates it's because they have an attitude problem or they're very picky and picking outside of their 'level.'

[Kris]

Hmm, well what I intended to communicate and what you've picked up is completely different, most likely my fault, I guess my brain needs sleep.

[LionsPride]

As for why women with pretty faces can't get dates it's because they have an attitude problem or they're very picky and picking outside of their 'level.'

Ah, so prettiest face is all that is required unless there are attitude issues. Ah. I stand corrected, that smacks of a completely objective way that men judge women. Yes, I can see that men everywhere have the same standard of pretty face and attitude for women. In fact, it is so universally standard that if the world's men all got together in the same room, they would categorically be able to define the word "pretty" and "good attitude" in such a way that is completely understandable and OBJECTIVE to every man and every woman on the planet. Yes, I can see how entirely reasonable this assertion of yours proves that men's value systems are entirely more consistent than women's value systems.

Personally I think that neither men or women could ever come to a widely acceptable definition of these terms such that an objective scale could be used.

No it is not more understandable just TO ME, it's more understandable to people in general. Are you saying most people aren't smitten by a good looking face? That's a bold generalizaton. I think YOU'RE taking your POV and putting it on the world.

Let's see, my statement was that I couldn't understand why anyone could be fooled by a pretty face, which entirely indicates that is my own personal view. I'm not sure where you get the impression that I think that somehow is held standard for everyone else.

What I was pointing out is that you frequently gauge whether something is valid by the way YOU feel about it. YOU feel that being swayed by a pretty face is understandable TO YOU, yet you can't see the subjectivity in your statements. Even the fact that men don't all value the same faces as pretty makes your argument worthless. You are using a term of measurement which is subjective from one man to another and saying that is something that is more objective. On that same basis, the women's claims that they all want a nice man, but the term "nice" is defined differently between each woman means that their desires are consistent as well.

And no you don't understand how the male mind works. It's not THE PRETTIEST FACE that wins, it's as long as it fulfills a baseline of male desire; meaning if he needs her to look at lease a 6 out of 10, its rare he will go out with a woman below that threshold.

Men fall for what's available because they want sex! Obviously if he is less attractive, his threshold will be lower since that's all he can get (because sex is the objective and if he can't get it he's got to change his parameters)! The threshold is fairly subjective because it depends on the community he is in(as in if all the girls are ugly he still wants sex so he'll pick the prettiest out of the ugly!). But that doesn't change the fact that objective beauty still exists!

Corrected, to say the same thing that the men here are accusing the women of doing:

And no you don't understand how the female mind works. It's not THE HIGHEST INTELLIGENCE that wins, it's as long as it fulfills a baseline of female desire; meaning if she needs him to be at least able to fix the car, its rare she will go out with a man below that threshold.

Women fall for what's available because they want sex! Obviously if she is less intelligent, her threshold will be lower since that's all she can get (because sex is the objective and if she can't get it she's got to change her parameters)! The threshold is fairly subjective because it depends on the community she is in(as in if all the men are stupid she still wants sex so she'll pick the most intelligent out of the stupid!). But that doesn't change the fact that objective intelligence still exists!

You know, I don't see how the male version makes any more sense in terms of being less ripe with subjectivity. I picked intelligence, but I probably could have used "nice" and "funny" in much the same way.

[curiousgeorge01]

Ah, so prettiest face is all that is required unless there are attitude issues. Ah. I stand corrected, that smacks of a completely objective way that men judge women. Yes, I can see that men everywhere have the same standard of pretty face and attitude for women. In fact, it is so universally standard that if the world's men all got together in the same room, they would categorically be able to define the word "pretty" and "good attitude" in such a way that is completely understandable and OBJECTIVE to every man and every woman on the planet. Yes, I can see how entirely reasonable this assertion of yours proves that men's value systems are entirely more consistent than women's value systems.

Personally I think that neither men or women could ever come to a widely acceptable definition of these terms such that an objective scale could be used.


On that same basis, the women's claims that they all want a nice man, but the term "nice" is defined differently between each woman means that their desires are consistent as well.





Change the word from objective to consensus and yes your first paragraph is pretty much correct.

Like I said, intelligence, honesty, and other characteristics are much more fickle than beauty hence why men's mistakes are more understood. Women can pick the dumbest dude on the planet and still think he's smart. Rarely does a man pick a woman who is ugly and calls her beautiful.

[Kele-De]

I don't see how the OP's statement is different from the standard argument of:

I value these items. Other people don't. Ergo, other people are stupid.

The fact that people can't see that the subjective nature of their own values, feel compelled to ridicule others against those values and then cry bloody murder the moment that they are judged against someone else's personal values in exactly the same way, makes me shake my head.

I'm sure there is a woman out there that values: Marx, Nietzsche, Freud, Jung, chemotaxis, Taiwan, Tibet, the Dalai Lama, the Pope, Religion. Then there are other women that value intelligence as being able to fix the car when it breaks or managing money or knowledge of child rearing or advanced physics. There isn't some magical topic that the population of the world all equate to valuable intelligence for the sake of breeding purposes.

As for the number of people who are single and somehow unable to find any partner, there are more reasons for that then the "irony of women". Damaged goods can come in a variety of forms and perhaps, people who are unable to find a mate, any mate, should first consider that there is something they aren't providing before they point their finger at the population of the world and claim that the majority have it wrong.

I have been striking out since 1996 but I still manage to muster the stamina to keep swinging at the pitch.

Perhaps the issue is not the pitcher himself, but the platform of reality that the pitcher bases his self identity, such as, philosophies from those famous above mentioned personalities that "educated" society places on a pedestal and uses to define our history.

I'll definitely be swinging at the pitch that bulldozes it's own path rather than rehashing the writing of dead men.

Oh, and Freud is a load of crap.

[SeaCzar]

I think that the OP is taking generalizations a bit too far and is a bit one sided....

When asked, and in my opinion, most women will say that they want some combination of the following characteristics in a man: Intelligence, Honesty and Humor.

But does anyone else find it ironic that women want...

Intelligence, but the vast majority of women don't know what to say or do with an intelligent man? Try asking an average woman about her opinions on Marx, Nietzsche, Freud, Jung, chemotaxis, Taiwan, Tibet, the Dalai Lama, the Pope, Religion, whatever, anything besides her new hairstyle.

There are certainly no shortage of women who worry about nothing more than their hair and clothes. However, there is certainly a paucity of men who know and can converse in the subjects you mention.

Honesty, but most women lie, cheat, gossip and stab each other in the back.

Again, there is no shortage of men who would say anything to get a woman in the sack, engaging in all of the above and more.

Humor, but the vast majority of women are not funny. Kathy Griffin Q.E.D.

Humour, and how it is perceived, is in one's mind. I would suggest that women are as funny as men, each to varying degrees.

Maybe women just want someone to complete them, someone who has all of the traits they lack? Therefore women must be unfunny stupid liars... ok the feminists can hack away now.

I do not think anyone would argue here that there is no difference between women and men in general. The generalizations you make are too broad to apply to all women. I certainly do not find woment to be unfunny stupid liars in general, but I am sure quite a few are. The same would apply to men. I think you need to modify you approach to women. Try hanging out at bookstores or the local coffeehouse. There is a huge variety out there.

[Stratego]

When asked, and in my opinion, most women will say that they want some combination of the following characteristics in a man: Intelligence, Honesty and Humor.

But does anyone else find it ironic that women want...

Intelligence, but the vast majority of women don't know what to say or do with an intelligent man? Try asking an average woman about her opinions on Marx, Nietzsche, Freud, Jung, chemotaxis, Taiwan, Tibet, the Dalai Lama, the Pope, Religion, whatever, anything besides her new hairstyle.

Honesty, but most women lie, cheat, gossip and stab each other in the back.

Humor, but the vast majority of women are not funny. Kathy Griffin Q.E.D.

Maybe women just want someone to complete them, someone who has all of the traits they lack? Therefore women must be unfunny stupid liars... ok the feminists can hack away now.


There is so much mysogyny and sexism in these statements I can even begin to take this seriously. Avoid making blanket statements about all women, as I suspect you're hardly and expert.

[JustMel]

NOTE that there is a HUGE disparity between what women say and what women do. They say to a man (or their own friends) "I'd never do this, I'd never do that"... but if you make them feel something romantic for you, they will do all of this and all of that in a heartbeat. The things they say after they are already hooked on your penis do reflect their internal reality a little bit more...

The man who is successful with women learns to hear what women say, but to pay attention to what they do. A woman wants to know that you do listen to her, but doesn't want you to call her out for contradicting herself when it comes to romance. Even though she knows that you know, directly calling her out on it for no good reason will be the end of the romance. Keep this awareness and record of words to yourself until you actually find yourself in need of emotional ammunition. By paying attention to what they do, you are armed with critical information regarding how to treat them. If you treat women according to what they say, especially before they are hooked on your rod, you have already lost the game.

Foul. Not all women are this way. Some of us are quite capable of telling the men in our lives exactly what we want and mean it. If a man attempted to treat me the way you've described above the chance to "become hooked on his rod" wouldn't happen because he'd be shot down before he ever had a chance to swing in the breeze.

Some women do have self respect and are confident enough to say what they want and it be the same thing they show they want. Funny thing is most men can't seem to handle it when she tells him "let's fuck" instead of "make love to me" *gag*





JustMel added to this post, 1 minutes and 29 seconds later...

There is so much mysogyny and sexism in these statements I can even begin to take this seriously. Avoid making blanket statements about all women, as I suspect you're hardly and expert.

If he thinks all women are this bad--perhaps he should go hang out with a metrosexual or two. Some of those guys wax in places no woman ever would and spend more on hair products than the national debt.

[TheLastMohican]

But does anyone else find it ironic that women want...

Humor, but the vast majority of women are not funny. Kathy Griffin Q.E.D.

Not at all. Being funny and appreciating others' funniness are two different things.

[alphawolf]

Foul. Not all women are this way. Some of us are quite capable of telling the men in our lives exactly what we want and mean it. If a man attempted to treat me the way you've described above the chance to "become hooked on his rod" wouldn't happen because he'd be shot down before he ever had a chance to swing in the breeze.


I haven't described any particular way of treatment other than a man basing his reactions on what the woman does, rather than what she says. Actions speak louder than words, with everyone, but especially with women regarding romantic scenarios. The reason is because in this case, the actions are driven by emotions, not logic.

Let me just say that if I actually paid attention to what every woman said that they don't want or would never do, during the first date, then I'd probably never make a move on any of them. By and large, all the things they say they don't want are instantly trumped by emotion - the way they feel after a very satisfying kiss/sex/whatever.

When you hear "love is blind", there is a scientific reason for this: the oxytocin produced during passion is an incredibly strong bonding agent. When you feel a strong bond with someone, you don't give a flying rat's ass about all of your silly little requirements that seemed so important to you last week. No person is immune to this phenomenon.

So, before you guys give up on that fine babe that you've been fancying because you don't meet all of her written/spoken requirements, keep in mind that in many cases, for many people, emotion trumps logic.

[DanteFalling]

When asked, and in my opinion, most women will say that they want some combination of the following characteristics in a man: Intelligence, Honesty and Humor.

But does anyone else find it ironic that women want...

Intelligence, but the vast majority of women don't know what to say or do with an intelligent man? Try asking an average woman about her opinions on Marx, Nietzsche, Freud, Jung, chemotaxis, Taiwan, Tibet, the Dalai Lama, the Pope, Religion, whatever, anything besides her new hairstyle.

Honesty, but most women lie, cheat, gossip and stab each other in the back.

Humor, but the vast majority of women are not funny. Kathy Griffin Q.E.D.

Maybe women just want someone to complete them, someone who has all of the traits they lack? Therefore women must be unfunny stupid liars... ok the feminists can hack away now.

What is your point?
Why place a sexual marker on a topic befitting both sexes?
Why ask to be hacked away by the people supporting that sexual marker?

Is your point that your problem lies in chasing and then haranguing a general group?
Are you trying to date a general group of people?

Is your OP meant to come off as a bunch of grapes so sour they're growing all types of mold: "ALMOST ALL WOMEN are like this. Funny, isn't it?"

Those evil, evil people. What hypocrites! When forced to respond to some idealistic question, these evil women-group-members respond with three idealized traits, but when presented with me, the AMAZING conglomerate of all three of those, they don't choose me. And what are they anyway, them, those people!?!?!?!?!!!


Has it ever occurred to you (let's be genderist for a moment, as it's so in fashion) that the system in which we live doesn't want women to be intelligent, honest, or funny? There's no point if men want women who are dumb enough to make them look intelligent, dishonest enough to make them look honest, and boring enough to make them look entertaining.

But then again, we're only talking about the average woman or man, aren't we?

What do you gain from your post?
HONESTLY, I would like to know (but then again, I might not be SMART enough to understand, so please use small words).





DanteFalling added to this post, 3 minutes and 35 seconds later...

There is so much mysogyny and sexism in these statements I can even begin to take this seriously. Avoid making blanket statements about all women, as I suspect you're hardly and expert.

Oh, but he didn't say this about all women: "Most," et cetera.

[Jinxu]

Intelligence, but the vast majority of women don't know what to say or do with an intelligent man? Try asking an average woman about her opinions on Marx, Nietzsche, Freud, Jung, chemotaxis, Taiwan, Tibet, the Dalai Lama, the Pope, Religion, whatever, anything besides her new hairstyle.

Honesty, but most women lie, cheat, gossip and stab each other in the back.

Humor, but the vast majority of women are not funny. Kathy Griffin Q.E.D.


I have some time to kill, so I guess I can take a stab at deconstructing this type of logic. ;)

By intelligence, women mean the type you use when you are in a cave looking for the holy grail and there are traps and puzzles between you and the artifact. Are you smart enough to figure out the puzzles in order to survive? I assure you knowing Nietzsche, Freud or Jung will not help you. Intelligence does not necessarily mean intellectual. Remember the guy in the suit was an intellectual and he chose the wrong cup. Sucks to be him, yes? (Note: Indiana Jones reference).

Honesty...women may lie, cheat, gossip with each other but they do not want to have to do it with their partners or have their partners do it to them.

Humor... a comedian is funny. not humorous. women are not necessarily attracted to comedian. The type of humor that women find sexy is the type that displays confidence, intelligence, a little cockiness, and wits.

[Jefferson]

When asked, and in my opinion, most women will say that they want some combination of the following characteristics in a man: Intelligence, Honesty and Humor.


Yes, but these 3 requirements need to be translated. ;)
Intelligence = intelligent as I am (works for all people, not just women)
Honesty = "faithfull to me sexually" (not telling truth)
Humor = "teasing me, even publicly" (not telling jokes)

and I would ad

Kind/Nice = [I didn't translate this so far. But I foresee it would be just another word that has different meaning in women dictionary]

[SimplyOtter]

When asked, and in my opinion, most women will say that they want some combination of the following characteristics in a man: Intelligence, Honesty and Humor. ...Maybe women just want someone to complete them, someone who has all of the traits they lack? Therefore women must be unfunny stupid liars...

LOL sure.

...or maybe we just save honesty, intelligence and sense of humor for men who have them.
So, in this case, I will just shut up.

[pip]

The Irony of Humanity

Defining traits of the average human.

Attractive
Available
Sane


You're only allowed to pick two. :laugh:

[JustMel]

No person is immune to this phenomenon.

So, before you guys give up on that fine babe that you've been fancying because you don't meet all of her written/spoken requirements, keep in mind that in many cases, for many people, emotion trumps logic.

Some people don't have a long list of "I'd never". The ones I do have are non-negotiable, Oxytocin doesn't change them. I don't care how much someone turns me on, I'm not setting aside my "I'd never have sex with an animal or child". I will not tolerate a cheat. Beyond those, I'm open to suggestions. The release of bonding chemicals is to help with the attachment process, not to make you a mindless idiot who'd go along with anything.

I don't have a list of written requirements as I tend to base my decision to date someone (when I was single) on the individual. You never know someone completely on a first date, obviously, so having a list of requirements is pointless. I've never understood why women, and some men, want to have this list of things they have to have in a mate because when they find that person they generally don't like them. I had a private list but I didn't judge people based on it, I waited to see where things went. I went out for months with a guy I had no intention of being serious with and he knew it. He was a nice guy, but not what I wanted and yes, he was good in bed and made me laugh, but it didn't change my mind.

[jcb]

in response to the OP, i wouldn't say it is the Irony of Women.

if, for the first few experiences with a woman, you are fooled/mislead by the subtleties of the female "language" (used for want of a better term), it is the Naivete of Men.

if, after these first few experiences, you are still in the dark, it is the Stupidity of Men.

[alphawolf]

He was a nice guy, but not what I wanted and yes, he was good in bed and made me laugh, but it didn't change my mind.

And there you go...

Guys: If a woman ever calls you "nice", it's time to tell her to get lost - because she's using you. NOTE that if you honestly do not object to being used, then go for it and use her, too. Do all those nasty things to her that you've secretly dreamt about doing to a woman but that you'd never do to a woman you respect. Also NOTE that by doing those things to her, she very well may change her mind and become attached to you... (seen that happen before, too - isn't it ironic?)

[Seriously]

And there you go...

Guys: If a woman ever calls you "nice", it's time to tell her to get lost - because she's using you. NOTE that if you honestly do not object to being used, then go for it and use her, too. Do all those nasty things to her that you've secretly dreamt about doing to a woman but that you'd never do to a woman you respect. Also NOTE that by doing those things to her, she very well may change her mind and become attached to you... (seen that happen before, too - isn't it ironic?)

My first husband was considered a "nice" guy. I loved it. I don't get women who don't want to be with someone who treats them well. So I think your advise is BS. Yea you may not get all the women but hopefully you will find someone who appreciates the person you are. I'm still friends with my ex, we didn't split because he was "nice" and we were together for a long time. lol I don't think he considers himself "used" in anyway.

Oh and you can do all kinds of nasty things with women you respect if it's something you both enjoy doing.

Where do you get your ideas???

[Kris]

I think the problem is a lot of nice guys are complete wimps. Most women I know want a guy who is confident, assertive and can stand up for himself - to others and to her. There's nothing specifically wrong with being nice.

[alphawolf]

Oh and you can do all kinds of nasty things with women you respect if it's something you both enjoy doing.

Well, first of all you need to understand something about men (and trust me, I am not projecting here):

Even though men may fantasize about treating (some) women like dirty sluts, they don't respect women who allow themselves to be treated like dirty sluts. The mentality is that if she allows you to treat her like a dirty slut, then she is very likely to allow every other man in town to treat her like a dirty slut when you're not around (and probably has).

A man's respect from other men comes, among other things, from the behaviour of his woman (what he will tolerate). No men in a community are going to respect a man who stays with a woman that gives them any reason at all to believe that she is anything other than completely monogamous. But they will suddenly all begin trying to screw her.

Call me old fashioned, conservative, double standarded, whatever you like, but that's the status quo.

[Kris]

alphawolf I do think that holds true for a lot of guys when they're first dating a woman. But after the relationship begins to move into the long-term committed stage, I think you can begin to explore things between each other without it causing said problems.

[Seriously]

So you can do nasty things with a woman you respect then?

[Tough Love]

Intelligence, but the vast majority of women don't know what to say or do with an intelligent man? Try asking an average woman about her opinions on Marx, Nietzsche, Freud, Jung, chemotaxis, Taiwan, Tibet, the Dalai Lama, the Pope, Religion, whatever, anything besides her new hairstyle.




The vast majority of men wouldnt know what to do with an intelligent man. Let alone an intelligent woman. Besides that point, i dont think anything could tempt me to respond to this question as it is such obvious bait and im not going to lower myself.

[dalidaisy]

Even though men may fantasize about treating (some) women like dirty sluts, they don't respect women who allow themselves to be treated like dirty sluts. The mentality is that if she allows you to treat her like a dirty slut, then she is very likely to allow every other man in town to treat her like a dirty slut when you're not around (and probably has).

Really? This is what you think? I don't agree. Not in the least...

A man's respect from other men comes, among other things, from the behaviour of his woman (what he will tolerate). No men in a community are going to respect a man who stays with a woman that gives them any reason at all to believe that she is anything other than completely monogamous. But they will suddenly all begin trying to screw her.

Again, really? What he will tolerate from his woman? And, all men? Come on...

[jcb]

Well, first of all you need to understand something about men (and trust me, I am not projecting here):

Even though men may fantasize about treating (some) women like dirty sluts, they don't respect women who allow themselves to be treated like dirty sluts. The mentality is that if she allows you to treat her like a dirty slut, then she is very likely to allow every other man in town to treat her like a dirty slut when you're not around (and probably has).

A man's respect from other men comes, among other things, from the behaviour of his woman (what he will tolerate). No men in a community are going to respect a man who stays with a woman that gives them any reason at all to believe that she is anything other than completely monogamous. But they will suddenly all begin trying to screw her.

Call me old fashioned, conservative, double standarded, whatever you like, but that's the status quo.


the kind of man who derives his sense of worth from the respect of cavemen is, himself, a caveman. i would like to think some men have transcended that period in history.

[alphawolf]

So you can do nasty things with a woman you respect then?


Oh I'll sure try, right from day one. In the beginning, she needs to draw the line somewhere if she wants to be anything to me other than a booty call, though. After I know her character better, then things are more acceptable.

Women wonder why men dump them afterwards... This is part of it. Men judge a woman's quality based on the woman's (perceived) self-respect.

[dalidaisy]

Oh I'll sure try, right from day one. In the beginning, she needs to draw the line somewhere if she wants to be anything to me other than a booty call, though. After I know her character better, then things are more acceptable.

Women wonder why men dump them afterwards... This is part of it. Men judge a woman's quality based on the woman's (perceived) self-respect.

So, you are saying that a woman who does nasty things has no self-respect, but that you will try to nasty things with her from day one anyway? Does it not go both ways?

Also, are we talking first date here? Or in the context of a relationship? Because the way I read it, you will have no respect for a woman if she does nasty things with you in the beginning, but it will be okay after you get to know her. Is that correct?

[alphawolf]

So, you are saying that a woman who does nasty things has no self-respect, but that you will try to nasty things with her from day one anyway? Does it not go both ways?

Sure, I will try. Most men will do exactly the same thing. Men test women for LTR worthiness, too. There is a difference between sexual compatibility with someone you trust and respect, and moving too quickly toward this type of behaviour. I'm dirty minded, and I like a similar type of woman, but not one who behaves that way before trust and respect is fully established.



Also, are we talking first date here? Or in the context of a relationship? Because the way I read it, you will have no respect for a woman if she does nasty things with you in the beginning, but it will be okay after you get to know her. Is that correct?

You read it correctly.

[Jinxu]

The vast majority of men wouldnt know what to do with an intelligent man. Let alone an intelligent woman. Besides that point, i dont think anything could tempt me to respond to this question as it is such obvious bait and im not going to lower myself.

I will say that if a woman can't compete on my level with intelligence, I am willing to compromise and settle (and this was a hard decision) on her being good-looking alone. :D

[Vagrant]

The Irony of Humanity

Defining traits of the average human.

Attractive
Available
Sane


You're only allowed to pick two. :laugh:

I always thought the second choice was intelligent, not available. That's another ballpark.

[JustMel]

And there you go...

Guys: If a woman ever calls you "nice", it's time to tell her to get lost - because she's using you. NOTE that if you honestly do not object to being used, then go for it and use her, too. Do all those nasty things to her that you've secretly dreamt about doing to a woman but that you'd never do to a woman you respect. Also NOTE that by doing those things to her, she very well may change her mind and become attached to you... (seen that happen before, too - isn't it ironic?)

BUT I was honest from the beginning and told him I didn't want a relationship with him and that it was just about sex. There was no using there. He was welcome to stick around for great sex or leave. Besides, nice isn't necessarily a disqualification. My husband is a nice guy.

Furthermore, most women I know would prefer a man that isn't afraid to do all those nasty things he secretly dreams about in a relationship.

FYI: There are no magical properties in a man's dick that makes women automatically attached because he's a good fuck, therefore there's no guarantee that she'll change her mind and become attached. In fact I've found that men are equally as likely to fall for someone and become attached even after being warned she doesn't want anything beyond sex. Men are just as likely to not have their actions match their words.





JustMel added to this post, 3 minutes and 54 seconds later...

Well to me, that makes the ENTIRE difference. The fact that they're more confusing makes our responses to them a bit confusing and it's a back to forth banter. I guess my point is, THEY STARTED IT. LOL.

Yes and ultimately we finish it too. However, men are also confusing to most women so there is no monopoly on confusion.





JustMel added to this post, 14 minutes and 15 seconds later...

Oh I'll sure try, right from day one. In the beginning, she needs to draw the line somewhere if she wants to be anything to me other than a booty call, though. After I know her character better, then things are more acceptable.

Women wonder why men dump them afterwards... This is part of it. Men judge a woman's quality based on the woman's (perceived) self-respect.

So, in your narrow world view on the subject, a woman who enjoys sex early in the relationship is a slut and less likely to be called back except as a booty call? That has not been my experience. I've always been the one to shoot someone down after sex, not the other way around. I was young, financially secure on my own, single and enjoyed sex. I partook where I chose and with whom I chose and told them all upfront they were there for sex and occasional hang out buddy, other than that they had no chance at a relationship.

It has been my experience that men don't respect a woman any less for enjoying sex and having few boundaries in the bedroom. In fact they seem to enjoy knowing that when she gets home and takes off her clothes she goes from quiet librarian (borrowing a profession, Rara) to the embodiment of his wet dream.

[curiousgeorge01]

Yes and ultimately we finish it too. However, men are also confusing to most women so there is no monopoly on confusion.



I suppose it doesn't matter who starts it, the question is how do we get around it??

[dalidaisy]

I suppose it doesn't matter who starts it, the question is how do we get around it??

Open communication & honesty. Look for that & give it in return.

[curiousgeorge01]

Open communication & honesty. Look for that & give it in return.

Well yes I agree with that. The problem is that if it's just one way it's already ruined.

[dalidaisy]

Well yes I agree with that. The problem is that if it's just one way it's already ruined.

Well, of course. If it's just one way, then you have made a poor selection. Move on. There are honest people out there. They may not be the type you are usually attracted to, but if it's something you really want, then you should look for it elsewhere.

[DanteFalling]

My first husband was considered a "nice" guy. I loved it. I don't get women who don't want to be with someone who treats them well. So I think your advise is BS. Yea you may not get all the women but hopefully you will find someone who appreciates the person you are. I'm still friends with my ex, we didn't split because he was "nice" and we were together for a long time. lol I don't think he considers himself "used" in anyway.

Oh and you can do all kinds of nasty things with women you respect if it's something you both enjoy doing.

Where do you get your ideas???


But that's the difference, isn't it? Doing something nasty TO someone or doing something deliciously nasty WITH someone. One is masturbating on someone's body and attempting to destroy a relationship (which may already be gone), and the other is making one more intense and more respectful BY doing the pleasantly "nasty" things WITH them.

[ProxyMe]

Maybe women just want someone to complete them, someone who has all of the traits they lack? Therefore women must be unfunny stupid liars...

Who should be judged with more severity:
a. this type of woman
b. the men that cater to this woman's needs and perpetuate this woman's creation in the next generation

Seems to create a dependent/co-dependent cycle.

[Wired]

Do all those nasty things to her that you've secretly dreamt about doing to a woman but that you'd never do to a woman you respect.

So, what do you do with the woman who requests those "nasty things"? (This is a really vague statement, so I'm not sure if we're talking about the same things. I mean, you could be talking about ripping out her toenails, or hiding her checkbook. But hey, I don't know you.)

To the OP: Where are you finding all of these vapid balloonheads?

[zibber]

I suppose it doesn't matter who starts it, the question is how do we get around it??

Ummm...

Stop treating "the other sex" as a big mystery and fundamentally different from "our sex"?

Like you do?

You know?

[blatant]

*ahem*:

Wah wah wah. I don't get along with women. I hate them all so much!

Why won't they cater to MY whims and needs?

Why won't they be more of what I want them to be!

I am the most important person in the universe! :O

Why are they not obeying? Why are they not submitting to me and my desires?

This is a flaw in the matrix! I must complain and gripe about it b/c it's obviously THEIR problem and not mine at all! *dramatic gesture* *cape blows in the wind*

[theDoc]

*ahem*:

Wah wah wah. I don't get along with women. I hate them all so much!

Why won't they cater to MY whims and needs?

Why won't they be more of what I want them to be!

I am the most important person in the universe! :O

Why are they not obeying? Why are they not submitting to me and my desires?

This is a flaw in the matrix! I must complain and gripe about it b/c it's obviously THEIR problem and not mine at all! *dramatic gesture* *cape blows in the wind*

qft. there's always time for people to learn, no?

[jwh1011]

When asked, and in my opinion, most women will say that they want some combination of the following characteristics in a man: Intelligence, Honesty and Humor.

But does anyone else find it ironic that women want...

Intelligence, but the vast majority of women don't know what to say or do with an intelligent man? Try asking an average woman about her opinions on Marx, Nietzsche, Freud, Jung, chemotaxis, Taiwan, Tibet, the Dalai Lama, the Pope, Religion, whatever, anything besides her new hairstyle.

Honesty, but most women lie, cheat, gossip and stab each other in the back.

Humor, but the vast majority of women are not funny. Kathy Griffin Q.E.D.

Maybe women just want someone to complete them, someone who has all of the traits they lack? Therefore women must be unfunny stupid liars... ok the feminists can hack away now.

I think you're too hung up on the words. Words mean different things to different people. If a female or a male says, "I want an intelligent partner," that is a really broad statement. A male might think of an intelligent female as one that will stand up for herself and state her opinions, where as another man might view this female as a B and unintelligent because she's running her mouth. A female's view of an intelligent male might be one that knows how to take care of business, fix things, understand how to act socially, whereas another female might view this same "intelligent" man as unintelligent because he might not be educated in feminist rights, might not care about environmental matters, etc, so she views him as unintelligent. It all comes down to what these people find intelligent.

As for honesty, it is quite similar to the intelligence thing. Honesty might be relative to certain situations. A female might want a male to be honest about where he was last night, but she might not want him to be honest about how he think she looks. Same thing for males. He might want her to be honest about her sexual history, but he might not want to hear about how she feels about a certain TV show or something.

Humor is really easy to explain. Different people think different things are funny. It may even be true that females are wired to laugh at different things than males are. However, you can almost always find a common ground where you can laugh at something.

Don't be so self-interested; branch out.

Note: People often say one thing but do another thing. For example, someone might say they want to lose weight, may have an intense desire to do so, but might eventually cave and eat the doughnut (or whatever). The same thing can be seen with a partner. A person might have every intention of being with someone and not lying to them, but will end up doing so because they're embarrassed, scared, angry, etc. We're not perfect, it happens to the best of us.

[Tough Love]

I will say that if a woman can't compete on my level with intelligence, I am willing to compromise and settle (and this was a hard decision) on her being good-looking alone. :D

Im a firm believer that while women and men are equal, they are intrinsically different.
For some reason men find it difficult to comprehend female intelligence.
I may get bashed for this, but due to hormones women are not always going to be as rational as men and i for one choose to be irrational if it lends to a greater cause, but we are more likely to have 'emotional intelligence' and be able to cope in some situations which our male counterparts wouldnt. So she is not 'good looking alone' she has other positive traits :p

[Harmony]

*shrugs* I think I can play this game... Since we are generalizing about our experiences... I suppose this works... All men want is a wet hole, even though they don't have one themselves. That how this game works?

I actually told Rho the other day that I don't care if a guy is incredibly intelligent. If he is intelligent enough to function in society and communicate effectively that's enough for me. I do need a guy with a sense of humor merely because I tend to not have a serious bone in my body. The last serious guy I dated got really ticked off because of this.

As far as I go... I really prefer someone that is stable. If they are stable and intelligent, well that's just a bonus... But, here is my issue with some highly intelligent people. My ex was brilliant. He had an IQ in the 160s. He could fix any computer problem you put in front of him... Ask him to repair something in the house and he was completely dumbfounded. I've seen this among a lot of the intelligent people I've known over the years. Excelled in all the basic subjects and the advanced ones... But give them a task of repairing or building something and they just couldn't do it.

I love it when people say most women aren't funny. I've always been able to make all of my friends laugh. And there are times when you can tell a laugh is forced, and when it is completely natural. I tend to get a lot of the completely natural laughs. And like others have said, there are different kinds of humor. I tend to have a sarcastic/lewd humor... Most guys are a little shocked by the things I say. :p

And liars... Well, let's face it... Not just women are liars... I've encounter many, many guys that lie about anything and everything. I had an ex that when I flat out overheard him making arrangements to sleep with another girl, he denied it. I could have shown him a picture of them in the sack together and he still would have denied it and lied about it. It's not just women, it's men. Hell, I'm too honest for my own good sometimes. I've said things that I probably shouldn't have and scared a few guys off. :p

Everyone can make sweeping generalizations. It's just silly to do so.

[AaronSheffield]

Intelligence, but the vast majority of women don't know what to say or do with an intelligent man? Try asking an average woman about her opinions on Marx, Nietzsche, Freud, Jung, chemotaxis, Taiwan, Tibet, the Dalai Lama, the Pope, Religion, whatever, anything besides her new hairstyle.

While I agree with others that this applies equally well to both men an women, it did remind me of a very painful date I had recently:

Her: "I'm really passionate about my Buddhism."
Me: "I have to agree that it's a fascinating philosophy; the Dhammapada has been among my favorite philosophical works since the first time I read it."
Her: "What's the Dhammapada?"
Me: "Um, it's a collection of sayings of the Buddha Siddhārtha Gautama. It's one of the primary foundational texts for any form of Buddhism."
Her: "Oh, interesting, I hadn't heard of that."
Me (thought): Oh Jesus H. Christ on a bike. How does anyone spend a year learning about Buddhism and not hear of the Dhammapada? This is not going to end well.
Me (speaking): "So, what branch of Buddhism do you follow then?"
Her: "The 'Convenient Method'."
Me: "Pardon?"
Her: "The 'Convenient Method'. You only have to follow the precepts for ten days out of the month and the rest of the time you don't have to worry about them. It makes it really easy."
Me: "So, you're Buddhist, but you only attempt to follow the Five Precepts slightly less than 1/3 of the time?"
Her: "Yeah! It really makes Buddhism much more accessible to people in the real world. And those ten days each month really do help!"
Me: "They do?"
Her (while drinking her third Cosmopolitan): "Oh yes. Things like meat and alcohol really have negative energies and I can definitely feel how those energies are gone when I avoid those foods."
Me (thought): Danger! 'New Age' BS limit exceeded. Activate escape routine!
Me (speaking): "Uh-huh... Well, this has certainly been an interesting night but I should be going. I'll call you sometime."

I think that people in general have a misunderstanding of what it really means to be with someone who is intelligent. In many cases (both for men and women) people who claim to want someone "intelligent" really just want someone who will take care of the mundane everyday things like taxes and insurance so they can remain blissfully free of the annoying necessity of understanding the world around them. If they find someone "intelligent", they can remain in their little bubble full of unicorns and rainbows while the "intelligent" person deals with all that "smart person stuff" that is a day-to-day necessity in the real world.

[Sere]

It's probably the 'boyfriend or husband' material they're after. But in some cases there's a strong possibility that the need for 'intelligence' may be construed as wanting a partner that can hold a decent conversation with them which in itself is not only construed by what both people 'know', but how much they understand and are willing to commit to the relationship.

[ArtistTyrant]

People in general are shallow. The reason that it's easier to see in women is that they talk more, giving more evidence to the truth.

[SelfMadeBum]

^ I honestly didn't think so many men were so shallow.

[ArtistTyrant]

^ I honestly didn't think so many men were so shallow.

And why is that?

[Prunesquallor]

^ I honestly didn't think so many men were so shallow.

Yes, it's quite appalling, really.

[SelfMadeBum]

And why is that?I just honestly thought them to be more evolved, that's all, more appreciative of things of substance.

[ArtistTyrant]

I just honestly thought them to be more evolved, that's all, more appreciative of things of substance.

There are more complex men than complex women. But most people are shallow; it's obviously not a sex-based thing.

[SelfMadeBum]

There are more complex men than complex women. Really? I think we've stumbled upon a conundrum, because I constantly hear about how 'simple' men are and how hopelessly complicated women are and how impossible it is to figure us out.

But most people are shallow; it's obviously not a sex-based thing.So noted... I am just disappointed in how shallow the men here are then.

[ArtistTyrant]

Really? I think we've stumbled upon a conundrum, because I constantly hear about how 'simple' men are and how hopelessly complicated women are and how impossible it is to figure us out.

So noted... I am just disappointed in how shallow the men here are then.

As for the first part, I believe I've already posted somewhere that women aren't more complex, they just emphasize socializing more, and as many males don't think about socializing to the extent that women do, they are confused by actions that are in reality simple to understand.

And as for the second part, disappointment comes hand in hand with expecting things from others, no?

[SelfMadeBum]

^ Please give me evidence, other than you just saying so, that supports this theory that women socialise more than men... women, who are more often than not at home during 'free time' taking care of the kids and house.

Re: disappointment: Yes it does and I already stated that I expected them to be more appreciative of things of substance.

[ArtistTyrant]

I looked into this seemingly self evident fact that women socialize more than men, and unfortunately, actual hard mathematical evidence goes both ways. So I could use a source that supports my claim but that would be misleading.

Doesn't that depend on your definition of "things of substance"?

[SelfMadeBum]

Well, more generally, an emphasis on the external/physical appearances is identified as a superficial trait, meaning it lacks substance.

Therefore I am disappointed that the males here place so much importance on such a superficial trait. So I guess I am more disappointed in the prevalence of superficiality in the males here than their lack of interest in 'things of substance', seeing as that brings more complications and subjectivity.

[ArtistTyrant]

Well, more generally, an emphasis on the external/physical appearances is identified as a superficial trait, meaning it lacks substance.

Therefore I am disappointed that the males here place so much importance on such a superficial trait. So I guess I am more disappointed in the prevalence of superficiality in the males here than their lack of interest in 'things of substance', seeing as that brings more complications and subjectivity.

Essentially, everyone places emphasis on external appearance. Vision is the main sense for understanding the world. I don't see how that is superficial, unless all other aspects of something are excluded. Also, you would think more subjectivity would arise if your wish for more males here having an interest in "things of substance" were somehow true, as the more complicated a topic becomes, the more viewpoints arise, even though most of them are wrong.

[SelfMadeBum]

^ Vision may be your main sense for understanding the world; please do not assume it's mine. It's superficial because there are more far important considerations IMO.

[ArtistTyrant]

Vision is the primary sense for the vast majority of people to understand the world around them. Much of the brain is devoted to vision for a reason.

[SelfMadeBum]

Vision is the primary sense for the vast majority of people to understand the world around them. Much of the brain is devoted to vision for a reason.Vision simply provides input... the importance we attach to what we see is completely up to us. The brain is dedicated to the task of thinking for a reason - to make sense of sensory input and hopefully to realise how superficial external appearances are.

[ArtistTyrant]

Vision simply provides input... what we take what we see to mean is completely up to us. The brain is dedicated to the task of thinking for a reason - to make sense of sensory input and hopefully to realise how superficial external appearances are.

Unless you are blind, your understanding of everything around you is based on how well you can sort visual information. And things aren't superficial in their base state; only false ideas and dogma create the idea of "superficiality", because the average person that makes up one unit in society isn't that smart, so things have to be dumbed down for them.

[SelfMadeBum]

^ How did dumb people get in?

Information about everything around me is taken in through my senses. I gain an understanding of it, I make sense of it through intuition and logic... are you telling me you believe everything you see? Or that you give importance to everything simply because it is seen?

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Or does logic sometimes overrule in order to either give credence to or reject what you think you see?

[ArtistTyrant]

^ How did dumb people get in?

Information about everything around me is taken in through my senses. I gain an understanding of it, I make sense of it through intuition and logic... are you telling me you believe everything you see? Or that you give importance to everything simply because it is seen?

To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Or does logic sometimes overrule in order to either give credence to or reject what you think you see?

You have to actually gather the information to apply logic to it.

[SelfMadeBum]

Yes, and from there I make determinations regarding the information gathered... hopefully not superficial determinations.