A World Without Metal

[OneBadMother]

No, I don't mean the music. How do you imagine civilization would have progressed if we had discovered no metals in the Earth's crust, ever? The metallic elements would still be present, but only in very small trace amounts. I'm curious as to what you guys think, since I've already come up with a few ideas.

[xhaan]

Well, it would be a LOT different... I can't even begin to imagine the possibilities. But you can do a whole lot with things besides metal. We would still have glass, and stone, and obsidian for blades (some surgeons actually use obsidian scalpels, still, for special purposes.)

It would be really hard to have mechanical bearings and internal combustion engines without some form of metal foundry or milling. it's possible that we could have moved up to plastics, electronics would be difficult without metal... hmm. Metal is such a major thing to us as a society.

I also forgot carbons, which are not metal (diamonds for cutting, coal for fuel, graphite for conducting electricity)

[rocksteady]

wow, cool post!

First off, Our culture would be unrecognizable. The entire bronze age would not have happened. I imagine we would resemble Native Americans in culture. If for some reason we were able to get out of the jungles and start innovating, our material sciences would be very interesting. I imagine we could still make a lot of ceramics, and stone tools. I can't imagine that we would be able to achieve any sort of widespread technological innovation, although our culture may have been in such as place that technological progress was not instrumental to the growth of our society, the way it is now.

I also imagine that we would probably worship meteorites, seeming how they would be the only times we saw metal :)

[Zilal]

Wow, I actually started putting together a tabletop RPG once based on a planet like that. I'd totally forgotten about that.

On this planet, boy, I don't think we'd go very far. Invention-wise, anyway. I suppose that's separate from cultural development. No guns, no electricity, etc.

The interesting question for me is, what would the little metal recovered (as from meteorites) be used for? I tend to think that, people being who they are, a lot of it would go to make jewelry (you thought I was going to say weapons!) but, yeah, a lot of it would also go to weapons and tools...

"Although iron meteorites are incredibly hard, the Inuit people successfully chipped off pieces of the fragment known as the Woman using hammerstones made of basalt. The iron was then used to make tools such as knives and harpoons. When explorer Robert Peary located the Woman in 1894 with the help of an Inuit guide, some 10,000 hammerstones were scattered around the three-ton meteorite."

Plus, what would have been invented or further developed that hasn't been? What kind of stonework plumbing might we have seen, or wooden vehicles?

(Just went back and reread previous posts... dude, graphite can conduct electricity? I've got to stop sticking my pencils into outlets...)

[rocksteady]

Wow, I actually started putting together a tabletop RPG once based on a planet like that. I'd totally forgotten about that.

On this planet, boy, I don't think we'd go very far. Invention-wise, anyway. I suppose that's separate from cultural development. No guns, no electricity, etc.

The interesting question for me is, what would the little metal recovered (as from meteorites) be used for? I tend to think that, people being who they are, a lot of it would go to make jewelry (you thought I was going to say weapons!) but, yeah, a lot of it would also go to weapons and tools...

"Although iron meteorites are incredibly hard, the Inuit people successfully chipped off pieces of the fragment known as the Woman using hammerstones made of basalt. The iron was then used to make tools such as knives and harpoons."

Plus, what would have been invented or further developed that hasn't been? What kind of stonework plumbing might we have seen, or wooden vehicles?

look at what the Egyptians were able to do, presumable without the use of metal tools. Stone would probably the best material for the society to become good with. I imagine that given enough time, we could invent most things that don't need metal, but I wonder what our society would end up like without all those metal weapons? we might all be peace loving hippies, smoking opium and pot all day, waiting for meteorites to hit so we can make jewelry and have a party!

Actually, I bet the society would have many adventurers that travel the world looking for meteorites.

(that would be a great idea for an alternate universe story!)

P.S did those batteries that the Egyptians supposedly invented contain any metal? I remember them being 2 ceramic pots filled with something, maybe you could have crude ceramic batteries with graphite wiring.

[rwyatt365]

A fascinating preposition!

People are smart, I would think that material science would have to branch off into the development of ceramics, or perhaps biomechanics as the basis for technology. My thinking is that we would soon outstrip the capabilities of stone and wood as the drive for solutions to problems accelerated.

Could we have developed electricity to the degree that we have it today? Carbon-impregnated fibers can conduct electricity, but poorly. I don't think that path would create much interest. Maybe people would pattern electrical systems after neurological systems once we uncovered the secret of the nervous system. Imagine, biologic electric transmission lines with synapses instead of plugs in your home!

Maybe fiber-optics would replace electricity for the transmission of energy (as well as information, as it does today). I don't have a mechanism for energy transmission via fiber-optics but it's a neat idea.

I don't know of any ceramics that have malleable properties similar to metals. Being able to work metals into various shapes is incredibly useful. Development of plastics might be the only thing that might duplicate that level of utilization (hell, we're almost doing that today with plastics).

And, instead of our internal combustion engines, might the development of steam, or steam-turbine engines be a development of a non-metal society? Containing the explosions of an internal-combustion engine might be limited to large, industrial (ceramic-based) power plants where a sufficiently robust "engine block" could be sustained. On the other hand a containment vessel constructed of other materials might be sufficient to contain the pressures required for a portable steam-powered engine. ("Hey dude, check out my Turbo Blowhard 3000! I can get 3000 psi through my turbine. I can get this baby up to 150!!")

[thod]

I dont see the real problem as being about tech artifacts. The problem would be things like iron to make blood. Life would be very restricted or very different.

[Danisty]

Wow, I actually started putting together a tabletop RPG once based on a planet like that. I'd totally forgotten about that.There's already a tabletop RPG on a planet without metal. It's D&D Dark Sun. I was going to mention it as soon as I saw this thread actually.

[Santana28]

it would give new meaning to the term "rock music" :)

[Zilal]

There's already a tabletop RPG on a planet without metal. It's D&D Dark Sun. I was going to mention it as soon as I saw this thread actually.

Damn. I've heard of Dark Sun, too. I don't think I ever knew what it was about though.

I dont see the real problem as being about tech artifacts. The problem would be things like iron to make blood. Life would be very restricted or very different.

Ah, nice perspective. Are there any creatures out there that don't use a metal as the oxygen carrier in their blood?

[Danisty]

Damn. I've heard of Dark Sun, too. I don't think I ever knew what it was about though.You should check it out. It's one of my favorite D&D worlds. I'm generally not a D&D fan, but Dark Sun tweaks the stereotypes a bit.

[OneBadMother]

I dont see the real problem as being about tech artifacts. The problem would be things like iron to make blood. Life would be very restricted or very different.

Blood and vegetation iron will be considered as small trace amounts, for purposes of this exercise. :P Same with other metals occurring in very negligible amounts. They can make up rocks, but not in nearly high enough quantities to be successfully used as ores, at least the ones found in the Earth's crust.

[rwyatt365]

Blood and vegetation iron will be considered as small trace amounts, for purposes of this exercise. :P Same with other metals occurring in very negligible amounts. They can make up rocks, but not in nearly high enough quantities to be successfully used as ores, at least the ones found in the Earth's crust.
Iron in hemoglobin is there because the chemistry "works". Our biology has evolved (for those who choose evolution) around this system. That is not to say that some other blood-like chemistry wouldn't, or couldn't work. It may not necessarily be as efficient (or, some would say, as elegant) as hemoglobin blood chemistry, but it certainly would be interesting!

[Zilal]

Iron in hemoglobin is there because the chemistry "works". Our biology has evolved (for those who choose evolution) around this system. That is not to say that some other blood-like chemistry wouldn't, or couldn't work. It may not necessarily be as efficient (or, some would say, as elegant) as hemoglobin blood chemistry, but it certainly would be interesting!

That's true, but I know that many sea creatures have a copper-based system, with hemocyanin, which in some conditions is actually more efficient than hemoglobin. And their blood is blue when oxygenated. But I do not know if there are any other creatures with something other than iron- or copper-based systems.

But who knows what's going to end up being more efficient in extreme environments, like hydrothermal vents or whatever. I was reading not long ago about some deep-sea snail they discovered with magnetite scales on its foot... the mineral forms the snail uses are not stable under "normal" conditions.

[Solaris]

It would make my current laptop a lot less....together? I wouldn't have my favorite cast iron pan. No, it's too horrible.

[DeadSpace]

cool topic :) i love 'what if's'
basic stone tools~~>then pottery, ceramics, and glass, breeding for traits of plants and animals would be much more important. Hydrocarbons still viable as an energy source, and plastics. Tubes (valves) could be possible, glass and ceramic w/rare earths. So electronics could happen. Discovery of genes would/should propel that type of world to a massive gene engineering front. Grown houses, bioelectronics, more organic versions of PC's. ('Timmy...feed your computer' heh) Seems probable animals would be modified, shorter distance to improve the brain for processing than building from scratch. Though that society might have fewer taboos in general about human modification...I do believe a low metal world/society would lean heavily towards biomodifications.

[thegnat]

First of all, if there weren't *any* metals, the whole transition metal center of the periodic table would be *out*. The periodic table would be a hell of a lot shorter. Actually the left side wouldn't be there either. That's actually *incredibly limiting*. I mean we'd have hydrogen and carbon, oxygen, the basis of our organic molecules.

Actually if metals such as iron didn't exist, we wouldn't exist. We use inorganic substances in some of our molecules. Heck, Blood! Blood wouldn't exist! As we know it. There would have to be a better way of transporting oxygen around the body. We wouldn't flatulate (better?). (I learned recently that methanogens are inorganic).

We'd probably exist as a MUCH MUCH less complicated organism.

Driving electrons would be interesting because metals are great for that.

The closest you'd get to metallic character would have to be elements on the stair step on the periodic table. To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Certain reactions wouldn't be able to happen. There wouldn't be half as many drugs synthesized. We'd have to go natural remedies. (and btw, those trace amounts would be used up in a nanosecond). Humans would die due to iron deficiencies (if we existed and these trace amounts were around). Only now there's research on synthetic blood but iirc it also uses a metallic core.

Plants also have a metal based chlorophyll system. The one chlorophyll molecule that drives the electrons has a metallic atom. Plants may die too. Or not exist. then nothing more complex than plants would probably exist, if many plants did.

Nothing cooler/more complex than a tetrahedral valency.

Oh, no lithium ion batteries to power computers! batteries would have to be *completely* remade as they're based on redox chemistry! Without metal redox chemistry....man, that would be difficult to drive electrons. Only organic chemistry...without grignard reactions and other metalloorganic reactions....Chemistry would be boring as hell! And a very small field!

Ok I'll keep thinking of more stuff...So I'll stop now.

[OneBadMother]

Ah, but gnat, I said only trace elements would be accessible to humans. The metals themselves would still exist, just not in large enough quantities for humans without modern technology to really be aware of or make conscious use of. :P

[thegnat]

Ah, but gnat, I said only trace elements would be accessible to humans. The metals themselves would still exist, just not in large enough quantities for humans without modern technology to really be aware of or make conscious use of. :P

Well unless we found a synthetic way of making them, then we'd still have BAD iron deficiencies, etc.

Metals would be a hell of a lot more expensive. Synthetic chemical reactions would cost HUGE amounts of money, especially the ones involving metals. And there are quite a few of those. Grignard reagents are relatively popular I believe. And still if we weren't aware of them the periodic table wouldn't be as big.

Inorganic chem would still be a TINY field as the metals would be HUGELY EXPENSIVE. People wouldn't likely enter into it.

[Zilal]

Okay, how about this... heh... metals exist in the same quantities in the earth's crust in which they're found today, but they're never concentrated in deposits (ores), meaning they're essentially everywhere but are not economical to mine. Thus the same amounts are available in the food chain but there's no mining.

Except I think we already kinda talked about the consequences of that, and honestly the consequences of no metals at all are also interesting. Biological consequences rather than cultural ones.

[thegnat]

Okay, how about this... heh... metals exist in the same quantities in the earth's crust in which they're found today, but they're never concentrated in deposits (ores), meaning they're essentially everywhere but are not economical to mine. Thus the same amounts are available in the food chain but there's no mining.

Except I think we already kinda talked about the consequences of that, and honestly the consequences of no metals at all are also interesting. Biological consequences rather than cultural ones.

So basically what would happen is that people wouldn't get iron deficiencies because they'd be getting it from the plants/animals they eat.

However, there would still be the problem of really expensive chemistry synthesis (ie drug syntheses). We'd know about them, we just wouldn't be able to use them. Electricity would have to be driven, well at least *conducted* in a different way.

No use of cars, no skyscrapers, etc. Computers would have to be built and batteries would still have to be made differently. I highly doubt laptops would exist for a *long* time. IF an 'organic' computer could be made. If that's at all possible.

[OneBadMother]

Well yeah, gnat, that's what I meant. :P And this would be before the world we have now. From the dawn of mankind onward. I'm basically wondering this because I know of cultures without reliable ore supplies that instead elevated their stonework to beyond that of others.

[aude]

Reading this just kinda got me thinking of the Flintstones. We would be using animals to do the heavy loads of work and every thing weighed a ton or more.

[Rei]

Well, it would be a LOT different... I can't even begin to imagine the possibilities. But you can do a whole lot with things besides metal. We would still have glass, and stone, and obsidian for blades (some surgeons actually use obsidian scalpels, still, for special purposes.)

It would be really hard to have mechanical bearings and internal combustion engines without some form of metal foundry or milling. it's possible that we could have moved up to plastics, electronics would be difficult without metal... hmm. Metal is such a major thing to us as a society.

I also forgot carbons, which are not metal (diamonds for cutting, coal for fuel, graphite for conducting electricity)

Yeah, I think the main thing is the world without carbon.
There would be no life in the planet (as we know it).
Not to mention you can construct almost anything with carbon.