Science Crisis?

[thegnat]

I was reading an article in DISCOVER magazine.

It suggested "doing away with science". I'll summarize the article in my words here:

Because not enough of the general populus is interested in science. Interest in science is declining. In the study of it at least. Except of course CSI forensic type science is gaining popularity. Only the scientists are interested in studying science, pure science. And by that I mean that CSI mis-represents science and lab techniques in so many ways so people are interested in it for busting criminals. Not the actual lab work that goes into it.

But it has an "image problem" with the general public. White lab coats and labs? That's just not "cool". Although we don't wear the lab coats all the time and we do listen to music in lab. But people don't care if it's a mis-representation. Science should either get a new image - or just say it's right and do away with "science" as a title to the general public. Within itself, sure. But if someone asks not to say you're a scientist.

And this won't hurt science because the scientific method is so ingrained in everything in everyone, that Creationists are using it to prove themselves right. The Scientific Method has become Common Sense. People don't accept arguments without evidence. So in the end Science has won. So it can either do a make-over or admit that it won and go home.


What do you think?

[logan235711]

no arguments 'eventually' won without evidence even before 'science' existed--the only difference is science asks for a slightly different criteria of evidence

this article is old news it has been as such since the 90s whether people here were old enough to remember or not--the proclaimed 'science wars' were a results of 1960s notion of 'socially constructed concepts' finally hitting the masses. any magazine you can buy at a store for a few bucks is loaded with pop. culture science, it doesn't represent the current state of science for about 95% of what's being done and is constantly outdated by 'at least' 5 years.

[thegnat]

no arguments 'eventually' won without evidence even before 'science' existed--the only difference is science asks for a slightly different criteria of evidence

this article is old news it has been as such since the 90s whether people here were old enough to remember or not--the proclaimed 'science wars' were a results of 1960s notion of 'socially constructed concepts' finally hitting the masses. any magazine you can buy at a store for a few bucks is loaded with pop. culture science, it doesn't represent the current state of science for about 95% of what's being done and is constantly outdated by 'at least' 5 years.

Of course arguments were won before science - it's just that most arguments *now* use the scientific method. It's been ingrained in society's brain whether they like it or not.

I don't think it's necessarily that magazines are constantly outdated about science, most non-scientific magazines are (and I think most scientific magazines are)...but it's just that science is expanding at *such* a rapid rate, it's incredible...it's hard to keep up with *everything* that's going on.

I'm not sure I agree with this argument.

But from my observations this is what I see:
*More people interested in forensic science/medical science due to:
*CSI, CSI, CSI, NUMB3RS which are shows that:
+Ultimately science/math bust criminals.
+Horrendously mis-represent what happens in lab.
+And in the end, glorify it. Exaggerate things.
*House, ER, Scrubs
+medical shows that glorify the medical field
*Less than 5 people in my class, perhaps in this school are chem/biochem going to grad school, very few of us going for a PhD (I think that's what I want to do). 3 people are chem majors at the school I transferred from that don't want to go to med school.
*I think there is a greater interest in med school because 95% of our science majors want to go to med school.
*This causes med school tuition to be *extremely high*
*High interest in science from other countries vs Low interest here = Domestic students are wanted very badly - this is great for people like me.

In the end, I will hypothesize that perhaps interest has shifted from science to the science on TV - medical and forensic. I grew up with Bill Nye the Science Guy, The Magic School Bus, National Geographic when it was more animal documentary related.

I think people just aren't as exposed to it. NOVA's decent, but then it's about this stuff that's way over everyone's heads - well at least most lay people's heads. They dumb it down to make it interesting - but people know in their heart of hearts unless they're brilliant, they aren't going to be studying String Theory or Black Holes. Those are very theoretical fields and become very difficult to measure.

I think we need more shows like Bill Nye the Science Guy, more practical science shows. Realize just how much science exists in every day life. When you breathe the work your lungs are doing can be measured using thermodynamics - the percentage of your daily diet you use to breathe can be calculated! That could be useful for making a nutrition plan. Things just such as the chemical properties of the things you use. Bleach makes white things luminesce blue.

Yeah that was kind of a ramble but does anyone else have thought in the apparent lack of interest in science in young people?

[OneBadMother]

Yeah, more practical science would be better. Then again, those who are really interested will always seek it out. I grew up tearing down books and websites on basic mineralogy, and now I'm a Geology major. :D

[thegnat]

Yeah, more practical science would be better. Then again, those who are really interested will always seek it out. I grew up tearing down books and websites on basic mineralogy, and now I'm a Geology major. :D

This is true. I grew up seeking out books on basically every kind of science - more large scale biology actually and geology and astronomy and herbology, on animals...

The most chem-like thing I did was make crystals from those crystal making kits... I still have the crystals I made...Just like I still keep my products from lab...

I think what ended up getting me into chem is that it's in *everything* it's like studying all sciences under one. Kind of. And I've found it absolutely fascinating :)

[NoahAddle]

Science education is just a casualty in a much bigger crisis in our culture. *Really, what it comes down to is that our culture doesn't value universal moral standards or the search for objective truth anymore, instead favoring the pursuit of what feels good at the moment. *Everyone grows up thinking to themselves that they will be retired millionaires by age 40 and if that doesn't happen, then at least they will have a wildly successful career in one of the 'sexy' professions (law, medicine, military/law enforcement, business, etc.) that are portrayed on tv and in movies. *

It is amazing how illiterate most people are regarding the math/sciences for the knowledge in this sphere holds real power. *Even more amazing is how financially illiterate most people are, given that these very same people typically give 50 years of their life to labor, yet they never get ahead financially and they don't understand why they seem to keep falling behind. *Obviously, this is another area where knowledge is power. *This scenario suits the people who already have power and like the status quo just fine. *

So, bottomline, what I'm saying is that science education doesn't have an image problem. *The average person in our culture, unfortunately, would rather hear the latest gossip about Britney, Paris, and O.J. because frankly it's more fun to do that than try to learn how to solve ordinary differential equations. *But knowing trivia about celebrities never led to knowing anything that could challenge authority. *Besides which, if the people who held power in this country really wanted a better science educated population, then they could provide financial incentives of some kind for people entering college to pursue needed technical degrees over the over supplied and/or marketplace useless liberal arts degrees like psychology and 17th century french literature. *Who needs to do hard, grueling learning in a subject like evolution when you can trust your pastor knows better when he tells you that God created the world in 7 days and that the world is only 6,000 years old? *Now, never mind pesky little things like truth. *You don't need to hurt your head with such things. *Go, run along and play.

[blueback]

I think it's probably just a backlash from the big Cold War push for science education.

Whether or not we like it this country was founded by religious zelots. Not just any religions either, but ultra-conservative brands of Christianity mostly. So it makes sense that the majority of the population would be sympathetic to Christian philosophy. Now, in principle that's probably not a bad thing. In practice, however, allegiance to a brand of religion like Christianity discourages people from rational thinking.

Christians don't like science because it has already taken away many of the things the church used to be soley responsible for explaining and is hard at work at taking away the few things that remain. Additionally, logical thinking makes it hard for those who organize the religion to do their job. They really don't want people coming up to them and asking how it's possible for predestination and free-will to both describe the same universe.

So, even if they don't realize it, religious types discourage themselves and others from studying science. They accept things like engineering, because that's evolutionary. Even the Pope likes to stay warm in the winter. But they are scared of things like quantum physics and evolutionary biology because those areas are revolutionary. When someone finally makes a breakthrough and figures out how to force-feed life into an inanimate soup religion will have one less question it can answer.

Most religious people don't have any problem with medicine, law, military, or business pursuits because even revolutions in such areas won't challenge religion's claim to the few remaining questions of life, the universe, and everything. The only questions science has yet to answer are studied by very specialized branches of science. Which means that the people who are publishing results which chip away at religion's sacred questions are SCIENTISTS. Which means that religions people tend to think negatively of science, because they associate feelings of discomfort with it. Especially the hard-core, specialized sciences.

Back to the thesis; the government pushed really hard for science education so that we could compete with Russia in the space race. I think that the religious types didn't like that, but they had to stay quiet because otherwise they would look like they were "soft on communism." Now that science education is no longer a national security issue they are pushing back against all the ugly logic and science they were forced to put up with.

[OneBadMother]

That explanation... makes a lot of sense. Sad but true.

It seems like we always need someone to point the finger at. If it's not commies, it's scientists. If it's not [insert race here], it's [insert sexuality here]. Stupid human hive-mind.

[Drayakir]

No. No way in hell.

If we make the public unaware of science, two things will happen:

1- There will be fewer new scientists, because of the unawareness campaign that would be going on

2- Scientists/doctors/forensics would become like wizards- doing something with strange odd tools to give results that defy logic- and yet are right.

When people don't understand something, they'll start hating it, due to our natural xenophobia and fear of the unknown.

[rocksteady]

does anyone else think there is potential for the faith vs science debate to get more heated, and possibly some bad things start happening? It seems the more we progress, the stronger the resentment is on some issues. I don't know, just a thought.

[Drayakir]

Of course. People that have faith are scared like hell of people who can back their statements up with facts. Because while they're saying that this is so because it can't be any way else/we believe in it, scientists say that this is so because of a, b, and c. And when the faith people see that their faith can be shattered by science, and with science already probing so deep into the Universe... well, they just might start a new witch hunting anyway.

[rocksteady]

Of course. People that have faith are scared like hell of people who can back their statements up with facts. Because while they're saying that this is so because it can't be any way else/we believe in it, scientists say that this is so because of a, b, and c. And when the faith people see that their faith can be shattered by science, and with science already probing so deep into the Universe... well, they just might start a new witch hunting anyway.

Well obviously it's a lot more pronounced in certain regions overseas, but do you think it is possible in America? America seems to be dividing along red and blue lines, with people getting less and less tolerant of those that don't agree with them. Dunno, could be cause for concern.

[Drayakir]

It is cause for concern. America has always been a polarized society, as "America: Democracy Inaction" succinctly put it: You either believe that man-on-pumpkin sex is an unalienable right, and should be taught in schools vs. baby Jesus said retards should be put to death.

Either way, there never is a middle ground here in the US.

The good news is, if religion decides to do away with science, I think it would be a good thing for the technocratic party.

[Lucid]

I agree with the article's statement that many people don't understand even what science is. Or how it works (just the basic concepts), or what the scientific method is or means.

We should absolutely not do away with science. Science allows us to understand our world based on empirical observation, rather than the flights of fantasy we so often encounter in the ignorant. The greater understanding we have of our world the better we are able to survive, flourish and help the rest of our environment do the same.

Science isn't perfect, but just because many people don't understand it or think it's boring doesn't mean that it should be done away with. It seems like the inner workings of almost all the most important things (science, politics, etc) are considered boring by the masses. Well, their loss.

[Drayakir]

Exactly! Which is why we should do away with the mass! Or erm, at least make it not matter!

[Lucid]

Exactly! Which is why we should do away with the mass! Or erm, at least make it not matter!

What is it with INTJs and world domination?

Not that I oppose the concept. INTJs unite! Today the internet, tomorrow the world!!

[qwerty]

Hmm it's an interesting question. And unfortunately it plagues other industries too e.g. People see Computer Hackers and want to do it too because they want to do cool stuff like that, then when they realize that there is theory they don't like it any more.

I guess it comes down to this (in my opinion): The majority of people are lazy and easily influenced by media.
As NoahAddle said "Everyone grows up thinking to themselves that they will be retired millionaires by age 40 and if that doesn't happen, then at least they will have a wildly successful career in one of the 'sexy' professions"
So from that I see that people are interested in themselves rather than the world around them. Why should a person risk the life style of "A family, kids, a house, a job" for the sake of discovering something new?

Maybe people will only gain an interest in the sciences if it is forced down their throats? And if that's the case is the person telling them what they should think better than the television producers?

[Drayakir]

Yes. He is. Because as much as I dislike saying it, some people are better than others, more intelligent than others, and therefore, their decisions are "worth" more.

A person would be more willing to listen to even a pseudo-scientist. All the guy would need is a lab coat, a whole bunch of diplomas behind him, and that's it- whatever he says becomes "doctor talk" and therefore, should be listened too- especially if he gets mentioned in the news.

Another problem is that scientists are always portrayed as the bad guys. How often is there a scientist character who does good and is heroic? In American culture, I can think of one- Gordon Freeman, who was a character in a minor video game. Incidentally, in the USSR, which had one of the best mathematics/physics educations in the world, the books were chock-full of heroic scientists who fought the forces of capitalism (I'm not making this up).

So, what science needs is a) several popular TV shows with the main character a scientist (kinda like "House," but maybe call it... "Home," or something) b) mandatory PR courses for scientists, and c) an awareness campaign of what science is/isn't across the nation.

[Lucid]

So, what science needs is [....] an awareness campaign of what science is/isn't across the nation.

I couldn't agree more. :)

[rocksteady]

I guess it comes down to this (in my opinion): The majority of people are lazy and easily influenced by media.

Many people enjoy being sheeple. They want to be lead, i'm actually cool with that, I wouldn't mind doing the leading one day :)

I think I would also prefer to keep the "fakers" out of science anyways, thats were we get the church sponsored creationist agruements against evolution :(
Let them stay ignorant so they don't ask questions :stunned:

even if science goes away in america, other countries will continue, and mankind will be ok.

[Drayakir]

Yes, but a country cannot progress without science, and I for one, do not wish to move to China (although I am seriously thinking about taking Chinese... just in case they DO decided to take over the world).

And besides, science should become LIKE religion- at least one member in every home, wide-spread, with information campaigns, community work, etc.

[Rei]

But lab coats are cool! I iron my lab coat and everything =/
I love it when I wear my lab coat. Then again, I like looking/sounding nerdy too.

I don't understand why we have to 'do away' with science just because the general population aren't interested. IMO, people simply don't know better. Many people, when introduced to science in the right way (cause-effect-usage), are actually interested. Besides, you only need one brilliant discovery to effect a whole population. We don't need many scientists to discover things. Since when did, doing away with something end up a good thing anyway?

Yes, but a country cannot progress without science, and I for one, do not wish to move to China (although I am seriously thinking about taking Chinese... just in case they DO decided to take over the world).

And besides, science should become LIKE religion- at least one member in every home, wide-spread, with information campaigns, community work, etc.

My visit to China last year tells me I probably won't even visit any Chinese cities again in another 10 years or so. Rural areas maybe...

I think we just need to spread basic scientific knowledge to everyone. Most people simply don't know enough to be interested. It's just like undergrad students being bored out of their minds because they're just being fed information and not what the implications are.