Instantaneous Acceleration

[ssfanatic]

ok, i often catch myself thinking of outrageous circumstances that provoke thought. In this instance i am sitting at lunch after i have eaten all of my food and am staring into my coke, while the others around me are lost in small talk. I begin to think...
What if this styrophome cup takes off with instant acceleration at the speed of light, with the force coming from behind the cup. It is moving laterally, or across the table.
Would the water evaporate, or would the atoms in the cup seperate bec of the speed and air resistance and pass through the liquid, or would the back of the cup tear off bec of inertia in the water, or some other theory?
Im pretty sure that i already have a valid answer, but that doesn't mean it is the only one. What do you predict?

[HackerX]

Instant velocity.

Apart from that the fact that it couldn't, I imagine the kind of energy involved would make it (cup, water, the whole lot) vapourise pretty damn quickly.

[ssfanatic]

Instant velocity.

Apart from that the fact that it couldn't, I imagine the kind of energy involved would make it (cup, water, the whole lot) vapourise pretty damn quickly.
Well in know it couldnt but its a lot more exiting than the people around me talking about who the hell knows what.
But anyway, if the cup starts its movement, the water would either splash out the back bec of inertia, or it would be carried by the cup. And i realize that the cup would vaporise quickly, but would the heat transfer into the water and vaporise in also?

[thod]

The cup couldnt be at the speed of light because this would increase its mass to infinity too. To instantly accelerate it would also require an infinite force.

If you just hit it with a very large force leading to very fast acceleration it would like being hit by a truck. The atoms at the front of the cup would accelerate into the next layer breaking all chemical bonds. Depending on the force the atoms would be pushed together storing energy. They will attempt to move apart to release this energy yet are still restricted to sub c velocities. As the mess gains velocity the atoms will realease the energy, like a compressed spring moving apart. So you will end up with a cup+water atom vapor moving at high speed that will cool and recombine.

If you used an extreme force you would drive the sub atomic particles into each other. This would give you a series of small black holes where the nuculii had hit in the profile of the cup.

[ssfanatic]

The cup couldnt be at the speed of light because this would increase its mass to infinity too. To instantly accelerate it would also require an infinite force.

If you just hit it with a very large force leading to very fast acceleration it would like being hit by a truck. The atoms at the front of the cup would accelerate into the next layer breaking all chemical bonds. Depending on the force the atoms would be pushed together storing energy. They will attempt to move apart to release this energy yet are still restricted to sub c velocities. As the mess gains velocity the atoms will realease the energy, like a compressed spring moving apart. So you will end up with a cup+water atom vapor moving at high speed that will cool and recombine.

If you used an extreme force you would drive the sub atomic particles into each other. This would give you a series of small black holes where the nuculii had hit in the profile of the cup.
I assume you are refering to Einsteins theory on the infinite mass topic, and you misunderstood. Einstei said that if would only becoming infinitely massive if it exeeded the speed of light, the cup is not.
I like the black hole theory, ha, its interesting to have something that small that could pull us apart.
But im unfamiliar with sub c velocities, would you mind expounding?

[1OFMANY]

On a side note, cup flying impossibly fast laterally being capable, that would cause some kind of violence to the surrounding areas, i.e. the people having the incipid conversation next to you. More than likely causing the destruction of the entire room :)

[thod]

Nope your mass increases as you approach the speed of light. Its asymptopic you cant actualy reach it. Photons can travel at c because they have no mass. At least this is what I recall from my general relativity class.

When you apply force to the cup the atoms at the leading edge are acclerated. I would assume that each particle would form a black hole there and then. Even if didnt and was simply pushed into another you would get the equivalent of a particle accelerator.

There is a lot of panic on the net atm about the large hadron acclerator forming miniture black holes. You could read some of that.

[ssfanatic]

On a side note, cup flying impossibly fast laterally being capable, that would cause some kind of violence to the surrounding areas, i.e. the people having the incipid conversation next to you. More than likely causing the destruction of the entire room :)
Its just water and a styrophome cup, not a rocket. Its not going to explode, but if it did create black holes, then we would have a problem ;)


Nope your mass increases as you approach the speed of light. Its asymptopic you cant actualy reach it. Photons can travel at c because they have no mass. At least this is what I recall from my general relativity class.
Ah, i see. Sorry i was misinformed. I was also thinking about this, if a photon does not have mass, then it can not store kinetic energy, so where does it get its energy to "drift" at the speed of light. I understand that, according to relativity, it is not affected by gravity either.

[AJ]

Ah, i see. Sorry i was misinformed. I was also thinking about this, if a photon does not have mass, then it can not store kinetic energy, so where does it get its energy to "drift" at the speed of light. I understand that, according to relativity, it is not affected by gravity either.

There is a way to derive the kinetic energy formula to apply it to an electromagnetic wave if not mistaken. As for your second part, photons are affected buy gravity, but the Gravitational Force must be very high in order to witness a "bend" in the light. This is one of the reasons why light is absorbed into black holes.

[TheConcertinist]

That's also how astonomers find planets way out in space. They're too dark to see from this distance (maybe some close ones can be seen?), so they look for the light that bends around the planet.

As for your second part, photons are affected buy gravity, but the Gravitational Force must be very high in order to witness a "bend" in the light. This is one of the reasons why light is absorbed into black holes.

[thod]

Photons have energy not mass. Energy is equivalent to mass via e=mc^2. Photons are never accelerated to c. It is a basic property that they have, they come onto existence with that property. I am not sure that photons are effected by gravity, rather it is the space that the photon passes through that is. So that gravitational lensing may bend the path but as far as the photon is concerned it travels in a straight line. Odd things occur at c, time stops for one. So if you could ride a photon you would instantly arrive at the other side of the universe.

Planets are not found by gravitational lensing. You find them using several other methods. Planets just dont weigh enough.

[ssfanatic]

Photons have energy not mass. Energy is equivalent to mass via e=mc^2. Photons are never accelerated to c. It is a basic property that they have, they come onto existence with that property. I am not sure that photons are effected by gravity, rather it is the space that the photon passes through that is. So that gravitational lensing may bend the path but as far as the photon is concerned it travels in a straight line. Odd things occur at c, time stops for one. So if you could ride a photon you would instantly arrive at the other side of the universe.

Planets are not found by gravitational lensing. You find them using several other methods. Planets just dont weigh enough.
I see. I should have thought of that.
But photons are not directly related to gravity. According to eisteins theory of gravity he said that mass bends a plain like a net, and since the bends are created on the plain, and the plain is all of reality, then light bends around the curves. That is why light reflects around plains. I know it sounds like gravity affects them directly but it doesnt.





ssfanatic added to this post, 30 minutes and 45 seconds later...

The cup couldnt be at the speed of light because this would increase its mass to infinity too. To instantly accelerate it would also require an infinite force.

If you just hit it with a very large force leading to very fast acceleration it would like being hit by a truck. The atoms at the front of the cup would accelerate into the next layer breaking all chemical bonds. Depending on the force the atoms would be pushed together storing energy. They will attempt to move apart to release this energy yet are still restricted to sub c velocities. As the mess gains velocity the atoms will realease the energy, like a compressed spring moving apart. So you will end up with a cup+water atom vapor moving at high speed that will cool and recombine.

If you used an extreme force you would drive the sub atomic particles into each other. This would give you a series of small black holes where the nuculii had hit in the profile of the cup.
Ok, i given the fact that it would create tiny black holes some thought and its missing one key variable...mass. You cant have a black hole without an exessive amount of mass, and a Styrofoam cup and water aren't going to cut it.

[MetalWounds]

It would seem that instantaneous acceleration would be impossible, in order to not have any period of acceleration before reaching light speed, anything with mass would need an infinite amount of energy. If being driven by an external object it would seem logical that this object would have to also have infinite mass, as not to be affected by the inertial force of the cup resting with no velocity. However, in another aspect what if the cup traveled through a "wormhole" of sorts while being accelerated to light speed? The laws of "time" would not be imparted on the cup, thus attaining its velocity instantaneously. Perhaps I'm way off base on this one?

[thod]

Ok, i given the fact that it would create tiny black holes some thought and its missing one key variable...mass. You cant have a black hole without an exessive amount of mass, and a Styrofoam cup and water aren't going to cut it.

There is no requirement to have mass to create a black hole. Its true that natural, stellar, black holes form massive objects. In fact though they are forming due to gravity not mass. Its the force of gravity that is pulling the particles together not mass. Once that force exceeds the neutron degeneracy pressure they collapse into a black hole because there is no stronger force to stop the collapse. If you take 2 particles and acclerate them enough then they have enough energy to achieve the same conditions and you get a tiny black hole.

[ssfanatic]

There is no requirement to have mass to create a black hole. Its true that natural, stellar, black holes form massive objects. In fact though they are forming due to gravity not mass. Its the force of gravity that is pulling the particles together not mass. Once that force exceeds the neutron degeneracy pressure they collapse into a black hole because there is no stronger force to stop the collapse. If you take 2 particles and acclerate them enough then they have enough energy to achieve the same conditions and you get a tiny black hole.
Yes, but to exeed the degeneracy pressure you have to have gravity, and to have gravity that strong you have to have an extremely massive object. Without mass, gravity is not very strong. But i guess if you take Einstein's e=mc2 then you would substitute the lack of mass with the amount of energy, then you could have black holes. Either way, you have to have large amounts of energy or large amounts of mass.





ssfanatic added to this post, 0 minutes and 56 seconds later...

It would seem that instantaneous acceleration would be impossible, in order to not have any period of acceleration before reaching light speed, anything with mass would need an infinite amount of energy. If being driven by an external object it would seem logical that this object would have to also have infinite mass, as not to be affected by the inertial force of the cup resting with no velocity. However, in another aspect what if the cup traveled through a "wormhole" of sorts while being accelerated to light speed? The laws of "time" would not be imparted on the cup, thus attaining its velocity instantaneously. Perhaps I'm way off base on this one?
And of coarse instantaneous acceleration is not possible, but neither is the speed of light. The whole thread is just theoretical.