What about marriage?

[Learning]

I've read that relationships can be very difficult for INTJ's because of the rational approach taken to life in general. It's no wonder that it would be difficult to choose a marriage partner since according to what I've read, INTJ's approach the matter "scientifically"...then there's the whole striving for perfection which I'm sure this area is no exception to. Marriage seems like such a huge decision. I'm just curious for those who are married, how did you go about making that decision? How much was "feeling" involved, and how much was pure logic? Responses are very much appreciated:) Thanks.

If anyone cares to post about possible "committment issues" INTJ's may have, those thoughts would be hepful as well.

[danalaina]

How much was "feeling" involved, and how much was pure logic?

i tend to choose my men pretty carefully, though it might not be obvious that there's any screening taking place. any man i'd consider for a serious relationship is going to be measured against a standard, and i've been absolutely ruthless about sticking to it.

however, marriage is an utterly romantic notion to me. it's mostly contrary (i believe) to our biology to be totally monogamous, so the idea of binding oneself to another person ostensibly for life is, i think, the ultimate expression of optimism. it may be socially acceptable/mandated, but i can't honestly call it a rational thing. so...while i take great care in screening, once the standard is met satisfactorily, emotion pretty much takes over. without that emotion, it wouldn't really be a marriage, by my definition.

**

i can't say i've noticed any real commitment issues being an INTJ. i tend to act without fear or much hesitation in the realm of relationships...it's been a pet study of mine for so long that i feel educated enough to act with confidence. i'd say that being INTJ has actually aided me in this regard. i learn quickly, and i can remember and apply knowledge. i think that gives us an advantage when it comes to picking a mate that will be well-suited.

for a truly non-social INTJ this might be a little harder, as exposure to people is necessary for this winnowing process. i'm not particularly social these days, but i've had enough brief 'E' periods to get what i need.

the only real relationship issue i've noticed is that i'm very willing to pack it in when i see things aren't working out well and don't believe they will change for the better. i don't arrive at that conclusion quickly or easily, but once there, i don't hesitate to call it quits. some would view this as giving up or perhaps taking too much initiative in a situation where i'm only half responsible. i just see it as being practical...perhaps that really is the major INTJ fault in relationships.

**

as a side note, i'm currently happily married to a very mellow Exxx. this is my second go. i married once in my mid twenties for all the wrong reasons - pleasing parents, social pressures, etc. because of those pressures, i was unknowingly ignoring some very definite warning signs from the guy. it's the one time in my relationship history that i let external factors play that much of a role in my decision-making, and it was an awful mistake.

my instincts about which people are good for me are strong and aren't often wrong...if you've got this same instinct, don't ignore it.

[rwyatt365]

As far as how I approached marriage is concerned, I must say that it was a purely practical decision for me (not completely logical, but very practical). I've been married twice now (divorced once). I married both times because I had been with both of them (at separate times, of course) for a number of years before getting married and it just "made sense" to make it official. Not to mention the economic and social benefits that go along with being married.

I can't say that I had, or have, any romantic notions about marriage. Those women that I have known in the past that I got that tingly, butterfly-in-the-stomach, "OMG I think I'm in love" feeling about never reciprocated, so I never married the "love of my life". My relationships have been more of the "we get along and have a few laughs" variety where the "fireworks" were few and far between. Consequently, reason and practicality were more of a driving factor (occasionally lust was involved) than anything else.

I can only speak for myself as I don’t know any INTJ's IRL. I've never had any "commitment issues" in any relationship that I've had. My only "issue" there was getting started. An introverted nature and natural shyness has always been my greatest hurdle. But once surmounted, I will forge ahead. If the feeling is mutual then I have no problem making a commitment to get together, stay together and offer marriage (if it gets that far).

Like danalaina, if I see things going sour, I also have no problems with saying so and "exiting, stage left". I don’t do that hastily (usually it takes several years to get to that point), and I don’t do it without thinking it through thoroughly. And I don’t shirk my responsibilities if it does come to parting company (my ex-wife got some handsome alimony payments until she re-married, and I still take care of my only natural son), so I'm not a dead-beat.

[Santana28]

As far as how I approached marriage is concerned, I must say that it was a purely practical decision for me (not completely logical, but very practical). I've been married twice now (divorced once). I married both times because I had been with both of them (at separate times, of course) for a number of years before getting married and it just "made sense" to make it official. Not to mention the economic and social benefits that go along with being married. [/COLOR]

ditto.

basically, from a financial standpoint we were both struggling and i suggested that we get married in order to share the burden. i wanted a quiet elopement, and i had him agree with me that if things didnt work out that we would just quietly get a divorce and go our seperate ways.

of course, it didnt work out that way. haha...all the logic in the world goes to hell when you're dealing with an irrational person.

now i'm pretty much trapped in a marriage that is essentially in name only. i dont have the financial means to get out on my own at the moment, or afford a divorce lawyer... and he refuses to even consider the word, despite the fact that we haze *zero* relationship other than living arrangements and joint bank accounts. I've learned my lesson for sure!

NEVER compromise on your beliefs!

[Pkz]

If two people truly love oneanother, why would they require something so arbitrary such as marriage to bind them together? I mean, if they do really need marriage to truly be together, then they shouldn't be together in the first place.

[PortInStorm]

For me marriage came from very deep feeling, but I was pretty careful about investigating his potential for "Husband-hood" ie. how he did/did not meet certain criteria. I specifically looked for qualities that would be good for the long haul, not for "fireworks". When my husband came along I found that he didn't have any really debilitating problems (drug problems, major family issues, money misuse etc), and that he was fun to be with. Then when he put himself out to care for me in small ways, that was it.

I decided on marriage because I wanted to be "one" with another person, and make a commitment (and it came in handy to keep me in this relationship during the hard times. If I had left because there was no "piece of paper" as you say, to make it difficult to leave, I would have regretted it. I wouldn't be enjoying what I have now. It protects me from my own tendency towards running away from problems). I'm not sure I believe in feeling as one anymore. But I am very grateful for the companionship- I think that that's the only thing that lasts, as feelings fluctuate.

[1OFMANY]

First off, love is an action shown to another, not a state of "feeling/being".

Second, anyone who says you don't need to be married to prove your devotion is lying or a commitment pussy.

That is all :P

[Danisty]

If two people truly love oneanother, why would they require something so arbitrary such as marriage to bind them together? I mean, if they do really need marriage to truly be together, then they shouldn't be together in the first place.The marriage license, in a legal sense, is basically a conglomeration of a lot of practical laws that two people who are committed might find useful. I can understand your point of two people not needing marriage if they are committed to each other, but your point that getting married proves they aren't committed doesn't really make any sense.

[AnandaMeansBliss]

Yea I am going to have to agree with Danistry on both points. Perhaps you could tell us why someone who says you don't need to be married is lying or a commitment pussy?

[Learning]

however, marriage is an utterly romantic notion to me. i

without that emotion, it wouldn't really be a marriage, by my definition.

my instincts about which people are good for me are strong and aren't often wrong...if you've got this same instinct, don't ignore it.
I agree about marriage being romantic. (I guess committment & being chosen is romantic?)

Yes, feelings & emotions are part of being human, and I value them, too. (I'm sure we all think passion is pretty great, right?)

Can you describe what your "gut" feelings are like?

[karen]

The decision was pretty easy for me. I really didn't care about whether or not my husband and I were married, but I knew it mattered to him. In fact, we were married within two months of our first date, he figured that since we were in love why beat around the bush? I figured 'eh, if it doesn't work out there is always divorce'. It has worked out though, so its no big deal. When I need time to myself, I just say I'm doing housework and he leaves me alone, afraid of being assigned a job.

[Pkz]

The marriage license, in a legal sense, is basically a conglomeration of a lot of practical laws that two people who are committed might find useful. I can understand your point of two people not needing marriage if they are committed to each other, but your point that getting married proves they aren't committed doesn't really make any sense.
I never said marriage prooves non-commitment, I'd absolutely get married myself, but for practical purposes only, and thats the only real reason I see to get married. My statement was more targeted towards the feeling/relationship part of marriage and not directed towards the practical parts.

[Wapiti]

I've read that relationships can be very difficult for INTJ's because of the rational approach taken to life in general. It's no wonder that it would be difficult to choose a marriage partner since according to what I've read, INTJ's approach the matter "scientifically"...then there's the whole striving for perfection which I'm sure this area is no exception to. Marriage seems like such a huge decision. I'm just curious for those who are married, how did you go about making that decision? How much was "feeling" involved, and how much was pure logic? Responses are very much appreciated:) Thanks.

If anyone cares to post about possible "committment issues" INTJ's may have, those thoughts would be hepful as well.

I've been married for over 13 years now. I sure wish I could remember what I was thinking back then. The decision must have been made largely on feeling - in some ways if the present me was standing next to myself back then, I'd probably kick my own ass, but thats looking backwards from here. Don't take me wrong, my marriage isn't a complete hell. I believe it is and has been a good learning experience and will definitely continue to be but sometimes I wish I would have thought a little more above the belt. I can definitely say that today I am a better person for it and glad, almost proud I've stuck with it. I have definitely learned (albeit the hard way.) It is and has been worth it. The hardest part for me has been me not knowing how desperately I need my space, my time away - this has been the hardest part of the relationship so far.

As far as commitment, I have no issues myself. Once I made my decision to marry, I've stuck by that decision. Wavered in that decision very little.





now i'm pretty much trapped in a marriage that is essentially in name only. i dont have the financial means to get out on my own at the moment, or afford a divorce lawyer... and he refuses to even consider the word, despite the fact that we haze *zero* relationship other than living arrangements and joint bank accounts. I've learned my lesson for sure!

Now that sucks, what more can I say.


NEVER compromise on your beliefs!

I agree completely.

[Colette]

I've been married for over 13 years now. I sure wish I could remember what I was thinking back then. The decision must have been made largely on feeling - in some ways if the present me was standing next to myself back then, I'd probably kick my own ass, but thats looking backwards from here.


Yeah that was pretty much me, too. My marriage decision happened a long time ago, when I was a lot younger and more naive, and I have no idea if I'd have made even a vaguely similar decision about the person, based on what I know and who I am today. My decision was also influenced by factors extraneous to the relationship, so in a sense I suppose that 'muddied the waters'.

However I think I can say that even as a strong INTJ I never treated the process in a purely 'rational' sense, to the extent of regarding it like a shopping expedition for a new car (doing my research, ticking the boxes, assessing suitability, etc). It was based on attraction and emotion - my desire simply to 'be' with the other person, and more importantly, not to be without them. In hindsight I don't see this as a particularly helpful basis on which to make such a critical and life-changing decision, but there you go; what is done is done, and I can never take the decision back, or its consequences for me now.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I've read that relationships can be very difficult for INTJ's because of the rational approach taken to life in general. It's no wonder that it would be difficult to choose a marriage partner since according to what I've read, INTJ's approach the matter "scientifically"...then there's the whole striving for perfection which I'm sure this area is no exception to. Marriage seems like such a huge decision. I'm just curious for those who are married, how did you go about making that decision? How much was "feeling" involved, and how much was pure logic? Responses are very much appreciated:) Thanks.

If anyone cares to post about possible "committment issues" INTJ's may have, those thoughts would be hepful as well.
I'll refer you to the thread 'I'm in love with an ESFJ (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 2 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)'.

[PortInStorm]

I think what this thread assumes is that people don't change after you've married them, and that the relationships' downfall was due to a faulty decision process, or that we're just no good at relationships, or that our partners are the 'wrong' type. Change may just be where most of the trouble comes in. I know I changed a huge amount when I went back to school around year 4 of our marriage, and I used to think that as long as you were pretty involved in each others' doings, that you wouldn't 'grow apart', ie change from what your partner married you for. But now I have no idea how to prevent that. Sometimes it's a positive change though...

[Learning]

In fact, we were married within two months of our first date, he figured that since we were in love why beat around the bush?
Do you mind if I ask how long it's been? (Just to see if the responses differ for those who've been married for shorter/longer periods of time.)
My decision was also influenced by factors extraneous to the relationship, so in a sense I suppose that 'muddied the waters'.
It was based on attraction and emotion - my desire simply to 'be' with the other person, and more importantly, not to be without them. In hindsight I don't see this as a particularly helpful basis on which to make such a critical and life-changing decision, but there you go; what is done is done, and I can never take the decision back, or its consequences for me now.
That's what gets me...because emotions vary so much, but at the same time people don't seem to be able to feel loved without them. Are you able to revisit those emotions, and if so does that help renew the relationship at times?

I think what this thread assumes is that people don't change after you've married them, and that the relationships' downfall was due to a faulty decision process, or that we're just no good at relationships, or that our partners are the 'wrong' type. Change may just be where most of the trouble comes in. I know I changed a huge amount when I went back to school around year 4 of our marriage, and I used to think that as long as you were pretty involved in each others' doings, that you wouldn't 'grow apart', ie change from what your partner married you for. But now I have no idea how to prevent that. Sometimes it's a positive change though...
So, basically expect change...and be flexible? Sounds challenging, but also like you said it can be "a positive change".

[PortInStorm]

So, basically expect change...and be flexible? Sounds challenging, but also like you said it can be "a positive change".
Yep- It also has the benefit of added hope- if the person you or your partner aren't everything you wanted, know that it can happen. It is challenging, but it also circumvents the endless "I've lived with him/her for 6,7,8 years to get to know everything about him/her before I feel comfortable making a commitment". Everything you need to know about the [I]foundation[I] of a person's personality can be seen in much less time than that, and knowing the finer details is of little use because you never know how those details will change in the future (due to circumstances beyond control, etc.).

[Wapiti]

Change may just be where most of the trouble comes in.
I think that change is a big part of it as well. I know that I am not the same person I use to be.


Are you able to revisit those emotions, and if so does that help renew the relationship at times?


I was just thinking that earlier today. For me it does help to try to revisit those emotions. I get a new sense of hope when I think that over 13 years ago I felt that this person was worth spending the rest of my life with.

[Colette]

I was just thinking that earlier today. For me it does help to try to revisit those emotions. I get a new sense of hope when I think that over 13 years ago I felt that this person was worth spending the rest of my life with.

Haha - I'm not sure this poster realizes I am now divorced! So in a word, no, I do not revisit those emotions now :p

[Wapiti]

Haha - I'm not sure this poster realizes I am now divorced! So in a word, no, I do not revisit those emotions now :p

You may revisit those emotions but it definitely doesn't renew the relationship for you. Probably more of a what the hell was I thinking kind of thing.

[JTG]

Yes! I like to get to know somebody before dating them, and i've found that most girls have already moved on or gotten bored with me by the time i'm ready to make that step.

[Colette]

Probably more of a what the hell was I thinking kind of thing.

Yeah, I find myself having that thought somewhat frequently in life. Should I be worried? ;)

[RoqueBear]

Maybe someday I'll get married in Canada....

I do believe in love, I've felt it before. I've always been better in relationships myself. If I found someone to take that step with, who wanted to share responsibility the way I wanted to, then I would.

[Wapiti]

Yeah, I find myself having that thought somewhat frequently in life. Should I be worried? ;)

I hope it's nothing to worry about cause I have those thoughts on a daily basis.

[karen]

Do you mind if I ask how long it's been? (Just to see if the responses differ for those who've been married for shorter/longer periods of time.)

It's been about 18 months.

[Santana28]

i've been married 4 years in march. we've been dating for going on 9 years, and known each other for 12 (met over the internet). time flies.

[denaria]

I wanted to get married but it took a long time before I found someone who wanted to marry me. I was quite a pretty girl and didn't find it difficult to initially attract men, but I sure as hell scared them off when they got to know me better.

My husband's an ENTJ, and nearly as intelligent as me, which helps. We've been married nearly 19 years and have two teenaged kids. We've had our ups and downs over the years, but I think we're reasonably contented. It helps that we're both manic readers, and both have a maths/science/IT bent.

[Uytuun]

It doesn't seem like INTJ and marriage go very well together from this thread.

[Aoiluna]

Im still young and I would love to get married someday after Im finished with all of my schooling and have established a stable job. Of course the idea of marriage scares the hell out of me because Im afraid that there is always someone better out there. I know that a lot of people may think that this isnt a good mindset, but I cant help it. Ive never been in love, though. That would be the variable I have yet to experience.

[rwyatt365]

If you find the "right person" then marriage can be bliss. I think that sometimes we get in a hurry and don't stop to find that "right person". That's when all hell breaks loose.

Don't be afraid of marriage, just make good judgements.

[polysylvester]

It sort of surprised me because it didn't happen until I was 33, but I was very capable of falling head of heels in love with the woman I married. She proved that the FEELING part of me is very much intact, it's just normally overpowered by the THINKING part.

[Learning]

My husband's an ENTJ, and nearly as intelligent as me, which helps. We've been married nearly 19 years and have two teenaged kids. We've had our ups and downs over the years, but I think we're reasonably contented. It helps that we're both manic readers, and both have a maths/science/IT bent.
That's an encouraging story. How much of the deciding factors in marrying him were (in %) thinking vs. feeling?

If you find the "right person" then marriage can be bliss. I think that sometimes we get in a hurry and don't stop to find that "right person". That's when all hell breaks loose.
Don't be afraid of marriage, just make good judgements.
Thanks rwyatt, advice appreciated. What factors do you think are important in finding that right person? (Is it okay to ask how you "knew" about the right person for you?)

It sort of surprised me because it didn't happen until I was 33, but I was very capable of falling head of heels in love with the woman I married. She proved that the FEELING part of me is very much intact, it's just normally overpowered by the THINKING part.
How long has it been now?

[polysylvester]

How long has it been now?

About 20 years.

[denaria]

That's an encouraging story. How much of the deciding factors in marrying him were (in %) thinking vs. feeling?


I have rather come to the conclusion that for reasonably intelligent people you should select for long term relationships on the basis of entertainment value. I don't mean that in too shallow a sense, but the person you are with for life shouldn't bore you. Infuriate you, annoy you, irritate the hell out of you, are all tolerable (occasionally) so long as when they come through the door in the evening they've always got a new take on the day. I regret to say that I decided my husband to be was probably THE ONE on our first date, when we discussed W and Z particles...oh dear, how very INTJ! He's 13 years older than me, previously married, not in the best physical shape - but he continues to inform, amuse and engage me. So, maybe 75% T, 25% F, but the F is always influeneced by the T.

[Scooby]

When people ask me about marriage, I say, don’t ask! I was married for 10 years. I was brought up to save it until I was married, and I did, 23 years. I thought I was in love, had sex, and within 6days of meeting her proposed marriage. Ok impulsive as hell I know! But I thought I was in love. 2 months later we were married. We lived together those two months and I thought it was great. Six hours after the wedding it started to go to hell real quick! We separated after 8 months and I immediately hooked up with another gal (heard the violins, saw the fireworks, yadda, yadda). Then my wife calls me one day to say she is pregnant! I have this unrelenting sense of duty. So I left (the girl of my dreams, probably would have gone to hell too) and went back to my wife. We have three kids and that is why I stayed, even though I wanted out so bad. Finally she asked me for a divorce (actually told me she was filing as soon as the courthouse opened the next day) on New Years Eve. After the divorce life was great FREEDOM (in my best William Wallace). I have been with a gal now for the last 3 years. We are engaged, because she wanted to. While I respect her, and admire her, I don’t think it is love. I am still uncertain if love really exists. I am monogamous and we are doing great. Just don’t like the idea of marriage again (did it once, that was enough).


I wanna know what love is. I want you to show me….
(do any of you youngins know those lyrics?)

[asongforgrace]

sliightly off topic but still marriage - to INTJs who have been through a divorce, do you think it was extra hard on you because you felt like you'd 'failed' at marriage, when we're meant to be such perfectionists?

-I haven't been married, I just realised that though I've always expected to one day be married I've not once considered making the wrong choice and it ending in divorce..

[Aoiluna]

When people ask me about marriage, I say, don’t ask! I was married for 10 years. I was brought up to save it until I was married, and I did, 23 years. I thought I was in love, had sex, and within 6days of meeting her proposed marriage. Ok impulsive as hell I know! But I thought I was in love. 2 months later we were married. We lived together those two months and I thought it was great. Six hours after the wedding it started to go to hell real quick! We separated after 8 months and I immediately hooked up with another gal (heard the violins, saw the fireworks, yadda, yadda). Then my wife calls me one day to say she is pregnant! I have this unrelenting sense of duty. So I left (the girl of my dreams, probably would have gone to hell too) and went back to my wife. We have three kids and that is why I stayed, even though I wanted out so bad. Finally she asked me for a divorce (actually told me she was filing as soon as the courthouse opened the next day) on New Years Eve. After the divorce life was great FREEDOM (in my best William Wallace). I have been with a gal now for the last 3 years. We are engaged, because she wanted to. While I respect her, and admire her, I don’t think it is love. I am still uncertain if love really exists. I am monogamous and we are doing great. Just don’t like the idea of marriage again (did it once, that was enough).


I wanna know what love is. I want you to show me….
(do any of you youngins know those lyrics?)


Thats some scary stuff. Love is an odd phenomenon.

oh and I suppose im a youngin, but I can still enjoy Foreigner.

[rwyatt365]

sliightly off topic but still marriage - to INTJs who have been through a divorce, do you think it was extra hard on you because you felt like you'd 'failed' at marriage, when we're meant to be such perfectionists?
For me...not in the least bit. In my mind, I tried everything that I could think of to "make it work", and in the end I felt I had put in my best effort. Therefore, my prefectionist tendencies were satisfied.

[qwerty]

Well I'm not sure about marriage as I've never been married but I guess if I had to make the decision then I'd want to be certain.

Reading through the thread the thing that comes to mind is:

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[Aurelia]

I've read that relationships can be very difficult for INTJ's because of the rational approach taken to life in general. It's no wonder that it would be difficult to choose a marriage partner since according to what I've read, INTJ's approach the matter "scientifically"...then there's the whole striving for perfection which I'm sure this area is no exception to. Marriage seems like such a huge decision. I'm just curious for those who are married, how did you go about making that decision? How much was "feeling" involved, and how much was pure logic? Responses are very much appreciated:) Thanks.

If anyone cares to post about possible "committment issues" INTJ's may have, those thoughts would be hepful as well.

Both logic and feeling were involved in my decision to marry my husband. Before getting married, we had dated for about five years. He was the only person I could really be myself with. I did weigh the pros and cons of our relationship. While I sorted through our relationship logically, I had feelings for him too. Not in the "oh I'm so in love with him" way but I knew I loved him more than anyone else I had been in a relationship with. I also had prayed about meeting the right man and on our first date something inside me told me that he would be my husband. Despite having that aha moment I still needed time to figure everything out!

[PortInStorm]

Well I'm not sure about marriage as I've never been married but I guess if I had to make the decision then I'd want to be certain.

Reading through the thread the thing that comes to mind is:

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Just hilarious!

[iamnotspock]

My BIGGEST marriage issue is the cost. To get married is to risk divorce. It's a likely outcome. It's initiated by women 70% of the time. And there is nothing you can do to prevent it. Nothing. In the case of divorce, you can lose half your assets, be stuck paying alimony, and paying divorce lawyers. I simply am not willing to incur that risk after spending ten years building up my wealth in business.

My SECOND marriage issue is the lack of benefit. What do you get from a marriage that you didn't have before? The sanction of the state? Of the church? Why does that mean anything anymore?

My THIRD marriage issue is the negative incentives to the relationship. Once married, there is a financial incentive to get divorced for one party. That undermines the relationship. Secondly, there is a sense that you don't have to make the same effort sicne you "got the ring". That undermines the relationship. And there is all kinds of stress over how things have to be now that you're married. Why undermine your relationship like this?

Overall, marriage offers no clear benefit, can lead to financial disaster, creates negative incentives and false expectations. It saddens me, b/c I am naturally monogomous, and would like to make such a committment. But I won't do something that makes no rational sense -- that is the height of stupid.

[liger0]

Not in a million years.

I'm the kind of person who gets bored with the 'same-old, same-old' rather quickly. If I got married, I'd probably be getting married every other week.

Emotional commitments aren't really my cup of tea. Honestly, I'm not even quite sure I'm capable of such things. Besides, as was mentioned before, the logical aspects really point to 'no'.

People are hard enough to deal with even when you're not waking up next to the same person every day.

[rwyatt365]

My BIGGEST marriage issue is the cost. To get married is to risk divorce. It's a likely outcome. It's initiated by women 70% of the time. And there is nothing you can do to prevent it. Nothing. In the case of divorce, you can lose half your assets, be stuck paying alimony, and paying divorce lawyers. I simply am not willing to incur that risk after spending ten years building up my wealth in business.
Divorce is, indeed a statistical probability but not an actuality. Even if 99% of marriages end in divorce, “yours” may be in the 1% (not statistically likely, but still possible). If one wishes to protect oneself from financial consequences of marriage, one could always create a prenuptial agreement (…and, good luck with that).

My SECOND marriage issue is the lack of benefit. What do you get from a marriage that you didn't have before? The sanction of the state? Of the church? Why does that mean anything anymore?
In the US you get the additional deduction on your income taxes (if you want to relate marriage to the purely practical and financial). Also, if you choose carefully and cultivate the relationship wisely, you get a life-long partner. “Two heads are better than one!”

My THIRD marriage issue is the negative incentives to the relationship. Once married, there is a financial incentive to get divorced for one party. That undermines the relationship. Secondly, there is a sense that you don't have to make the same effort sicne you "got the ring". That undermines the relationship. And there is all kinds of stress over how things have to be now that you're married. Why undermine your relationship like this?
Those undermining influences exist, but they are not the only influences. If one has truly found a partner then their partnership will extend to business and all financial matters, thus being a positive incentive to success. “Slacking off” once the ring is in hand is a sign of laziness and not of commitment to the relationship. A truly committed couple has a powerful positive incentive to continue and strengthen the relationship. And generally, the stress of making things “how they should be” in a marriage is self-inflicted. If a couple creates their own “successful marriage criteria” then there is no pressure to conform.

Overall, marriage offers no clear benefit, can lead to financial disaster, creates negative incentives and false expectations. It saddens me, b/c I am naturally monogomous, and would like to make such a committment. But I won't do something that makes no rational sense -- that is the height of stupid.
Done with forethought, understanding, and true cooperation marriage makes rational (and emotional) sense. The problem is that most people do none of the above – it’s done in a fog of emotionality and sexual heat. When the fog lifts, and the heat dissipates, that’s when the problems start to erode and decay the relationship – THAT is the height of stupid.

[MNRon]

Married twice. First when 21 and stupid, bad sutuation, ugly divorce. Second marriage, 31 years and counting, "OK" but not wonderfully fulfilling. We share some common interests, and tolerate one another's quirks, but she continues to struggle with understanding me, the INTJ with depression/anxiety issues. She puts up with those issues, and I put up with her fogetfulness iratonality. Much of what she enjoys and thrives on, like big family gatherings, I cannot, or refuse to, tolerate.

In retrsopect, serial monogamy may have been a better option. One online test tells me I am a Dionysius, the Greek god of seduction. That may have been the way to go. Women have always liked/admired me - smart, athletic, witty, resourceful --and I never put that appeal to what now seems like could have been good use. Hard to say, but perhaps my present wife, and me, may have been happier traveling different paths.

[iamnotspock]

rwyatt365,

I hear what you are saying. My question is why does that have to be put on a piece of paper? If you have a real committed relationship, isn't that enough?

It seems to me like the piece of paper is what brings in the problems. Is it just that in America women insist on it? Or is there something truly different about the relationship once you are official? Enlighten me further, wise married man ;-) . . .

[rwyatt365]

I hear what you are saying. My question is why does that have to be put on a piece of paper? If you have a real committed relationship, isn't that enough?

It seems to me like the piece of paper is what brings in the problems. Is it just that in America women insist on it? Or is there something truly different about the relationship once you are official? Enlighten me further, wise married man ;-) . . .
It doesn’t HAVE to be put on paper, but putting it on paper makes it “official”, and being “official” is what matters in America’s legal environment. You can’t get the tax benefits without some form of legally binding “paper”, and there is other “stuff” (which I’m too lazy to enumerate) that requires a marriage certificate to take advantage of.

For the people involved in the committed relationship, the paper is just a formality.

Does the relationship change once the papers are signed? Theoretically, no – in my experience, you betcha! :thumbsup: In both of my marriages my wife started uttering the “I’m your wife, so now I have ‘rights and privileges’…” mantra almost the day after the wedding. Where “rights and privileges” means, “Now I can command you as my personal slave and obedient vassal, and you will relenquish all worldly posessions and submit your will to my whims”. :thumbsdown:

The first time I was caught off guard and complied until I regained my senses and rebelled (we got divorced soon thereafter). The second time I was (kinda) prepared so I tried pre-emptive measures before getting married (“Now, you’re not going to do that are you?”). But, alas, the end result was the same. Soon, the clarion call of the “wives rights” chant began and I’ve been standing firm ever since.

My only wisdom – don’t do what I did.

[Santana28]

It doesn’t HAVE to be put on paper, but putting it on paper makes it “official”, and being “official” is what matters in America’s legal environment. You can’t get the tax benefits without some form of legally binding “paper”, and there is other “stuff” (which I’m too lazy to enumerate) that requires a marriage certificate to take advantage of.

For the people involved in the committed relationship, the paper is just a formality.

Does the relationship change once the papers are signed? Theoretically, no – in my experience, you betcha! :thumbsup: In both of my marriages my wife started uttering the “I’m your wife, so now I have ‘rights and privileges’…” mantra almost the day after the wedding. Where “rights and privileges” means, “Now I can command you as my personal slave and obedient vassal, and you will relenquish all worldly posessions and submit your will to my whims”. :thumbsdown:

The first time I was caught off guard and complied until I regained my senses and rebelled (we got divorced soon thereafter). The second time I was (kinda) prepared so I tried pre-emptive measures before getting married (“Now, you’re not going to do that are you?”). But, alas, the end result was the same. Soon, the clarion call of the “wives rights” chant began and I’ve been standing firm ever since.

My only wisdom – don’t do what I did.

you know, thats funny - my husband pulled the whole "we're married now, everything is different" spiel on me less than a week after the wedding...i just kind of looked at him, tried desperately not to bust out laughing, and said incredulously "are you KIDDING? You CAN"T be serious?"

anyways... he meant it. and here we are.

[Colette]

I married once, and for me it was 'for life' (although happenstance meant it didn't in practice work out that way).

I don't believe in serial marrying - it was a once-off commitment (and set of vows for me); not one I can, or want to, transfer to a number of different prospective partners.

Accordingly, I won't be marrying again, ever.

[rwyatt365]

I married once, and for me it was 'for life' (although happenstance meant it didn't in practice work out that way).

I don't believe in serial marrying - it was a once-off commitment (and set of vows for me); not one I can, or want to, transfer to a number of different prospective partners.

Accordingly, I won't be marrying again, ever.
Wow..."serial marrying"...quite a characterization! :stunned:

But I understand the point made. In my case, I married the first time and was totally committed to the relationship. "Stuff" happened, and we parted company (either that, or kill one another). I was (and am) still committed to the concept of marriage, just not to my first marriage partner.

I'm married for the second time, and just as committed to the new relationship as I was to the old. And while this new relationship is not rosey and sweet, I remain committed to it. If this one fails, I will not marry again - my serial marriages will cease there...and I would not entertain a long-term relationship with another woman because, obviously, I'm not too good at it! :(

[MNRon]

[QUOTE=asongforgrace;49267]sliightly off topic but still marriage - to INTJs who have been through a divorce, do you think it was extra hard on you because you felt like you'd 'failed' at marriage, when we're meant to be such perfectionists?QUOTE]


I don't the INTJ part made it any more difficult; I was simply busy dealing with all the painful niceties that go along with an unamicable breakup.

[pavman]

Maybe someday I'll get married in Canada...

Umm.... ??? Is Canada the only really good place to get married?! LOL! I fail to see the relevance. Not that I have anything against the Canadians, mind you. :thumbsup:

I do believe in love, I've felt it before. I've always been better in relationships myself. If I found someone to take that step with, who wanted to share responsibility the way I wanted to, then I would.

I do too kiddo, don't let all these sour pusses get ya down on love.

I hope to be married someday to a level-headed woman who knows how to cook, is a demon in the sack (hey like attracts like right ;) and enjoys some of the things I do (not all, mind you). And hopefully she's a neat freak, because if she isn't, we'll be screwed.

[PortInStorm]

Canada = gay marriage