Romance Without Love?

[Hdier]

I have never understood the whole big thing about a boyfriend/girlfriend telling the other (or same) 'I love you' after months of dating...why would they even start dating if they didn't think that they may love each other in the first place, meaning that this would only be a confirmation?

[niffer]

I've never completely understood the concept of dating myself.

The thing is, it is a very rare event that two people are going to be nearly in love with each other, or even interested in each other just out of chance.

Solution: dating

They get together because they think there may be a possibility of loving each other after a while. Love may take a while during a process like this.

The way I see it, it kind of seems like a sort of self-arranged marriage thing. This is why I am not very interested in it myself. I usually just confess my feelings towards the other person. Then, I am stumped as to what to do next. It makes it harder since I'm a girl, because if I "ask them out" they're generally expected to pay for dates, or otherwise are forced to spend time with me. If they weren't attracted to me in the first place, why would they agree to it, and why should I expect them to do stuff for me?

[Firelie]

That's a good question.

I agree with you, though. I always felt a bit redundant telling past boyfriends "I love you" since I wouldn't have been in a relationship with them if I hadn't loved them. Some people really seem to get nervous about the status of the relationship if you don't say it often, though, so basically it was either say it and be annoyed at it, or have to explain that I wasn't mad at them/that I was fine if I didn't say it. Sigh.

[OneBadMother]

Saying "I love you" too many times makes it lose any meaning it might have had anyways. The best way to really show your love for someone is in the little things you do for them. :P

[quentin]

There's a word for romance without love and it's called lust.

People date because they are horny. Genuine love is such a very rare thing and most people can't wait around for that to happen, because their hormones are screaming at them that they need somebody so they can make out and get laid. So they hook up randomly with whoever is available at the time and reasonably attractive.

[danalaina]

Saying "I love you" too many times makes it lose any meaning it might have had anyways. The best way to really show your love for someone is in the little things you do for them. :P

some Jon Favreau movie i saw years ago talked about this...he said in the movie that "I love you" ends up with about the same significance as "cheese sandwich."

i always thought that was kinda funny (and true of course). the hub and i say cheese sammich instead. =)

[xhaan]

I have never understood the whole big thing about a boyfriend/girlfriend telling the other (or same) 'I love you' after months of dating...why would they even start dating if they didn't think that they may love each other in the first place, meaning that this would only be a confirmation?

How do you find out if you love someone, if you don't date them?
(The question barring the possibility that you consider love to be a choice... that's obvious I think)

I make this distinction because there's a difference between attraction and love. Someone who actually loves you will stick with you though hard times, if they just simply 'like' you, or felt good being around you for your attractiveness to them, they are more likely to split.

Edit:
Though I admit, saying it flippantly kind of kills the meaning, but there are times when it does need to be said too, for a lot of people at least.

[Antares]

I have never understood the whole big thing about a boyfriend/girlfriend telling the other (or same) 'I love you' after months of dating...why would they even start dating if they didn't think that they may love each other in the first place, meaning that this would only be a confirmation?

Well, from my experience, dating often starts out as a crush or an interest. After a good period of development, a couple may find themselves in love, separated or going steady and not exactly anywhere. I think that in the beginning, a good portion of it may be infatuation. Of course, I am not dismissing the possibility that couples may already be in love when they got together. I have a theory that they dont express it because they are not sure how their partner feels about them and may not want to get hurt, therefore holding it back.

[Hdier]

Hmmmm, maybe my problem is simply that I would never date anyone who wasn't my friend first, because I would have to know that I genuinely liked them before figuring out if I loved them (in a romantical way) or not. I would also be revolted at the idea of doing anything out of pure lust.

[rwyatt365]

That is one thing (among many) that absolutely drives me up a wall!! My wife constantly reminds me that, "you never say, I love you", to which I reply, "I say it, just not as much as you want me to – 'never' is a long time".

If I've said "I love you" once, then I meant it. If things change then I'll let you know, otherwise you are safe to assume that nothing has changed. If I go to the store on Wednesday, do I have to remind you of that on Thursday? If my shoes are black this morning do I have to repeat that they're still black in the afternoon? Wouldn't it make sense to only tell you something about them if they suddenly change to brown (and not before)? When I say something, I'd like for it to have meaning and not just be some mindless chatter.

I hate repeating myself so saying "I love you" every 5 minutes is excruciatingly irritating! :irked:

[Hdier]

Unless I'm in a mushy mood, where I hug every family member every five minutes and such, I tend to get annoyed with this as well. I ended up making this a part of my routine, saying 'Love you, night' every night to my parents and such. Also, I always include 'I love you' at the end of my apologies to parents. However, I have never dated (and probably won't until I'm out of college), so I wouldn't know how this would work with a boyfriend/spouse.

[MichaelH]

My spouse and I say "I love you" (ILU) every night before we go to sleep. (Just once...it's not a chant. :) ) My parents got me into that habit when I was growing up. It seemed weird at the time, but is actually a good habit.

The nights when ILU is tough to say are symptoms of relationship trouble. Going to bed mad is never, ever a good thing. That last ILU sparked some big discussions when they were truly needed. Otherwise, it's a good marker for "everything's OK".

[Paul V]

I have never understood the whole big thing about a boyfriend/girlfriend telling the other (or same) 'I love you' after months of dating...why would they even start dating if they didn't think that they may love each other in the first place, meaning that this would only be a confirmation?

Wow. That simple paragraph is riddled with topics to discuss, so this post will be gigantic.

Firstly: You people (you and everyone else in this forum that says "I don't understand why people do this when I think differently") need to understand that the world is not made up of people like you. Most of the people that surround you are either SPs or SJs, with luckily a few NFs and even fewer NTs.

Let me explain how SPs date, from the SPs' mind (grossly oversimplified): "Oh, look, a hottie! I wanna sleep with her/him! Let's date him/her!" They date. After a while: "Oh, wow! I'm actually feeling something for this hunk o' meat! It's something I've never felt before! Oh... could it be what they call 'love' in the movies? Oh... I must tell him/her that! Perhaps he/she will feel the same, and I'll experience more intense feelings! YAY!"

SJs: "Oh, look, it looks like someone who fulfills the list of everything I want for a partner! I can see myself sharing my life with this person, and keeping him/her safe and guarded. I can easily see my life accommodating to fit him/her. I should date him/her immediately." They date. After a while: "Oh, wow! I'm actually feeling something for this person, other than simply using him/her to fill a void inside me! Oh... could it be what they call 'love' in the movies? Oh... I must tell him/her that! Perhaps he/she will feel the same, and our relationship will be cemented to last forever!"

NFs: "Oh, look, it looks like my soulmate! He/She is perfect! I love him/her! It's most definitely true and perfect love! I must date him/her!" They date. After a while: "I can't tell him/her I love him/her or I'll scare him/her away. I need to wait until I know for sure he/she feels the same. We're obviously meant for each other, but that doesn't mean he/she knows that right away."

NTs: "Oh, look, someone who understands me. Someone I don't need to explain myself to, and someone I can actually tolerate. Hum. Perhaps mankind has more to offer than dim-witted fools and human shields. It would be only logical to date such a person." They date. After a while: "Oh, my. There's something... something odd going on inside me. I feel a warm, eecky feeling in my chest, that makes the corners of my mouth tug upwards. And it's triggered by the presence or the thought of the person I'm dating. If I thought there would be any capability for emotion inside this empty husk of flesh, I'd call it... argh, I can't even say it! Yes, I can. Love. It could be love. But let's not get all hasty here. It might be indigestion. We must consider this very carefully."

Oh, and btw, there's no such thing as "love at first sight". There's "crush at first sight", "infatuation at first sight" and even "lust at first sight"; but love necessarily implies knowing the person the way he/she truly is, and unless you're a psychic or an INFJ, that's impossible to do with just a glance.

[Hdier]

Firstly: You people (you and everyone else in this forum that says "I don't understand why people do this when I think differently") need to understand that the world is not made up of people like you. Most of the people that surround you are either SPs or SJs, with luckily a few NFs and even fewer NTs.

I understand this. One of the reasons that I am so interested in psychology is because I have, from a young age, recognized that I think differently than most people. That is why I attempt to understand them. However, this is one thing that I don't understad, therefore I am turning to my free online database...er, the people on this forum, to help me understand this.

Let me explain how SPs date, from the SPs' mind (grossly oversimplified): "Oh, look, a hottie! I wanna sleep with her/him! Let's date him/her!" They date. After a while: "Oh, wow! I'm actually feeling something for this hunk o' meat! It's something I've never felt before! Oh... could it be what they call 'love' in the movies? Oh... I must tell him/her that! Perhaps he/she will feel the same, and I'll experience more intense feelings! YAY!"

I think that this is the main point of my problem. As I stated above, doing something out of pure lust revolts me, and therefore it is not as easy for me to understand as other things, which have small nuances to which I can latch on.

SJs: "Oh, look, it looks like someone who fulfills the list of everything I want for a partner! I can see myself sharing my life with this person, and keeping him/her safe and guarded. I can easily see my life accommodating to fit him/her. I should date him/her immediately." They date. After a while: "Oh, wow! I'm actually feeling something for this person, other than simply using him/her to fill a void inside me! Oh... could it be what they call 'love' in the movies? Oh... I must tell him/her that! Perhaps he/she will feel the same, and our relationship will be cemented to last forever!"

Again with the movies. This is interesting, as it is really foreign to me to use such logic in such an emotional thing.

NFs: "Oh, look, it looks like my soulmate! He/She is perfect! I love him/her! It's most definitely true and perfect love! I must date him/her!" They date. After a while: "I can't tell him/her I love him/her or I'll scare him/her away. I need to wait until I know for sure he/she feels the same. We're obviously meant for each other, but that doesn't mean he/she knows that right away."

:chuckles: I could see myself doing this, though my strong T would probably prevent me from doing anything to reckless (ie: dating someone who isn't yet my friend, or something along those lines)

NTs: "Oh, look, someone who understands me. Someone I don't need to explain myself to, and someone I can actually tolerate. Hum. Perhaps mankind has more to offer than dim-witted fools and human shields. It would be only logical to date such a person." They date. After a while: "Oh, my. There's something... something odd going on inside me. I feel a warm, eecky feeling in my chest, that makes the corners of my mouth tug upwards. And it's triggered by the presence or the thought of the person I'm dating. If I thought there would be any capability for emotion inside this empty husk of flesh, I'd call it... argh, I can't even say it! Yes, I can. Love. It could be love. But let's not get all hasty here. It might be indigestion. We must consider this very carefully."

Wow. I expected a more biased post, one that would shed NT's in a better light than any of the others. I'm impressed.

Anywho, I'm probably in the middle of this one and the above one, which is probably why I have troubles understanding it.

Oh, and btw, there's no such thing as "love at first sight". There's "crush at first sight", "infatuation at first sight" and even "lust at first sight"; but love necessarily implies knowing the person the way he/she truly is, and unless you're a psychic or an INFJ, that's impossible to do with just a glance.

We can definitely agree on this (except for the psychic or INFJ part; I don't know what you've been reading).

[xhaan]

Hmmmm, maybe my problem is simply that I would never date anyone who wasn't my friend first, because I would have to know that I genuinely liked them before figuring out if I loved them (in a romantical way) or not. I would also be revolted at the idea of doing anything out of pure lust.

Friends have nothing to do with it. Genuinely liking has nothing to do with it either.

Also, romance has LITTLE to do with anything else except itself.
You might like someone enough to say, have a beautiful sunrise beach picnic together, with some snuggling/makey-outy thrown in, but being with that same person for most of the day every day could still drive you so batshit crazy that you want to strangle them. That's not very romantic, is it?

[Learning]

I have never understood the whole big thing about a boyfriend/girlfriend telling the other (or same) 'I love you' after months of dating...why would they even start dating if they didn't think that they may love each other in the first place, meaning that this would only be a confirmation?

Getting to know someone in the beginning is exciting. It's fun & pretty easy to be infatuated with someone. It takes time to get to know them in a dating relationship though (even if you've already known them as a friend). If a person does love the other from the onset, he/she may want to take care with when/how they say it. Especially if it holds great value for them and/or they feel it takes the relationship to another level.

They obviously like/care for the person enought to date, but time, values & the ability to overcome trials seem to be important factors in what ultimately determines a couples' "love" for each other. This is only an observation.

[errrzarrr]

I've never completely understood the concept of dating myself.

The thing is, it is a very rare event that two people are going to be nearly in love with each other, or even interested in each other just out of chance.

Solution: dating

They get together because they think there may be a possibility of loving each other after a while. Love may take a while during a process like this.

The way I see it, it kind of seems like a sort of self-arranged marriage thing. This is why I am not very interested in it myself. I usually just confess my feelings towards the other person. Then, I am stumped as to what to do next. It makes it harder since I'm a girl, because if I "ask them out" they're generally expected to pay for dates, or otherwise are forced to spend time with me. If they weren't attracted to me in the first place, why would they agree to it, and why should I expect them to do stuff for me?
wow, and that's a ENFP.

[danalaina]

"[...] But let's not get all hasty here. It might be indigestion. We must consider this very carefully."

this is far too apt a description for me to be happy about it. =)

[errrzarrr]

That's a good question.

I agree with you, though. I always felt a bit redundant telling past boyfriends "I love you" since I wouldn't have been in a relationship with them if I hadn't loved them. Some people really seem to get nervous about the status of the relationship if you don't say it often, though, so basically it was either say it and be annoyed at it, or have to explain that I wasn't mad at them/that I was fine if I didn't say it. Sigh.

Saying "I love you" too many times makes it lose any meaning it might have had anyways. The best way to really show your love for someone is in the little things you do for them. :P
Yes. There's a lot of unsure and lowselfteem people out there. Us INTJ's have a better confidence and don't need to hear 10 times what we already know.

"I love you" is a such understimated phrase. It is not that easy to love somebody else. "I love you" so many times means: I am dependent of you, I am horny, you are a drug for me, I have affection for you. All of those are incorrect uses of the word love.

There's a word for romance without love and it's called lust.

People date because they are horny. Genuine love is such a very rare thing and most people can't wait around for that to happen, because their hormones are screaming at them that they need somebody so they can make out and get laid. So they hook up randomly with whoever is available at the time and reasonably attractive.
The best explanation so far.

[slut poacher]

i have seen lots of people in meaningless relationships, only because they are too needy to be alone.

[PortInStorm]

I agree that meaningful action means more than just saying "I love you". To me that's slowing down enough to look me in the eye and be interested in what I'm saying, really listening, putting thought into doing things together, paying attention to details in my life, touching (because honestly, where else can we stand that, but in intimate relationships?), and generally investing/engaging, putting some effort into maintaining more than the population's status quo.

At the same time I never understood what the big hoopla of saying I love you was (you know "Sally, can you believe it? Beefcake said he loved me for the first time last night!"). You can love a lot of people at once- it just means you care for the person. Is that such a big first that people put it up there with graduation, prom, or an engagement?

[Paul V]

One more thing: I won't date someone I love. In fact, I need to date someone first and discover all their quirks and secrets before I can determine whether I love someone or not. To me, love is not just something that happens, is a careful analysis of a lot of factors, and a decision that carries on a lot of responsibilities, as well as benefits. But it's a conscious, logical decision that needs to be informed to the other person once it has been made.

[Hdier]

:shudders: Love is an emotion, not a math problem!!!

[Snuggles]

There's a word for romance without love and it's called lust.

People date because they are horny. Genuine love is such a very rare thing and most people can't wait around for that to happen, because their hormones are screaming at them that they need somebody so they can make out and get laid. So they hook up randomly with whoever is available at the time and reasonably attractive.

So true... I was thinking really deeply about this today or yesterday... looking back at people who I previously dated.

I really felt nothing for them other then they were 'sufficient' and I'd try to get them to improve themselves.

It kind of comes down to... 'this is what people expect'... 'i'll be normal if i do this this way'... and I look at my two roommates relationships... and they are absolutely pathetic!

The one guy is essentially with the girl because if he left her, he'd feel really bad. She is such a 'poor me' individual, it makes me mad. She is a huge liar and over dramatic, and I know he doesn't want to be with her, but he carries the weight of her dependency of him on his shoulders. Yuck.

My other roommate is dating this girl because she is attractive. He is an extremely sorry and insecure individual. If she's around, all he does is grope her all night or yell at her for not calling him or hanging out with another guy. When she's not around, he drinks himself retarded and usually breaks something of his own property. He is a genius and she is remedial. She really has absolutely nothing to offer this world outside of her looks. She doesn't want to leave him because she is afraid of not having anyone to hang out with.

So you decide... are relationships even worth it? They all seem so terrible. I really fear the idea of 'settling'. That is the lowest form of human submission (I suppose outside of suicide...). The only reason this effects me is because of how much I get bugged about not asking girl A out, or why don't i date friend B. I cannot do something just because that's what others do.

[errrzarrr]

One more thing: I won't date someone I love. In fact, I need to date someone first and discover all their quirks and secrets before I can determine whether I love someone or not. To me, love is not just something that happens, is a careful analysis of a lot of factors, and a decision that carries on a lot of responsibilities, as well as benefits. But it's a conscious, logical decision that needs to be informed to the other person once it has been made.

I'm sorry for you, Love is not something you can decide/determine. Is not an option. If somehow there is a careful analysis or a decision it's on the subconscious level. There's no logic, thinking or judging there, even if you are the extreme of the intj. The conscient is mute on this topic. :cool:

[Paul V]

:shudders: Love is an emotion, not a math problem!!!

I agree, love is an emotion, but that doesn't mean it can't be rationalised, just like everything else. :)

I'm sorry for you, Love is not something you can decide/determine. Is not an option. If somehow there is a careful analysis or a decision it's on the subconscious level. There's no logic, thinking or judging there, even if you are the extreme of the intj. The conscient is mute on this topic. :cool:

Love is an emotion, just like the rest of them, and I've been able to rationalise every single emotion I've ever felt, and get rid of those I didn't want to feel. If I don't think someone's suitable for me, I'll crush my crush on them, before it turns into something harder to remove. And yes, I've done it before, so it's possible. Many times, in fact.

[niffer]

Isn't love more like a.....state?

[Blacklustre King]

I have decided for myself that love is an illogical principle not required for the reproductive act. So in tail I have ultimately come to the conclusion that I should avoid relationships that are “romantic” because I cannot and more so will not cater to the emotional needs of a partner who is not as cold and calculating as myself, completely lacking in the sensitivities of the more dramatic and frankly, annoying types.

[Hdier]

I agree, love is an emotion, but that doesn't mean it can't be rationalised, just like everything else. :)



Love is an emotion, just like the rest of them, and I've been able to rationalise every single emotion I've ever felt, and get rid of those I didn't want to feel. If I don't think someone's suitable for me, I'll crush my crush on them, before it turns into something harder to remove. And yes, I've done it before, so it's possible. Many times, in fact.

Emotions are not rational. They can be felt, dealt with, ignored, put off, embraced, agreed with, disagreed with, eradicated, multiplied, and many more things, but they are not rational.

[stasis]

Love does not at the moment compute. Culturally, love seems to be established only in the most vague of terms; some intimately esoteric certainty, all-encompassing and unmistakable. But, undefined and apparently different in individual experience. What am I supposed to extrapolate from that? Lust does not mystify me, and nor does the romantic. I know what it is to appreciate. I am familiar with strong attachment. I have been in years-long relationships, and still have no specific idea what this "love" feeling is. I've only guesses based in the cultural vagueness from whence the concept comes, and ad hoc theory that shall not likely be testable. Not only does romance without love seem unproblematic to me, it also seems inevitable to my experience.

[Lucid]

In my experience, I usually don't love someone when I first start dating them. I think that actual love requires that you know the person you're in love with better than a few dates might allow. There's a huge difference between infatuation (which is what I generally feel at the beginning of a relationship) and love. Therefore, telling your SO that you love them for the first time is usually informing them of a change in your emotional state (as I see it).

[rwyatt365]

Love does not at the moment compute. Culturally, love seems to be established only in the most vague of terms; some intimately esoteric certainty, all-encompassing and unmistakable. But, undefined and apparently different in individual experience. What am I supposed to extrapolate from that? Lust does not mystify me, and nor does the romantic. I know what it is to appreciate. I am familiar with strong attachment. I have been in years-long relationships, and still have no specific idea what this "love" feeling is. I've only guesses based in the cultural vagueness from whence the concept comes, and ad hoc theory that shall not likely be testable. Not only does romance without love seem unproblematic to me, it also seems inevitable to my experience.
Hear, hear! Me too! And all of those other phrases.

"People" ask, "Do you love me?", and I reply, "What does it mean to love?", and receive some nebulous, vague response that says nothing. "You'll know it when you feel it." The problem is that what I feel can easily be characterized as; caring, responsibility, attachment, lust, or something that is generally deemed to be less than "love". So I guess I don't "love" because I don't feel it.

But that doesn't bother me in the least bit.

[PortInStorm]

In my experience, I usually don't love someone when I first start dating them. I think that actual love requires that you know the person you're in love with better than a few dates might allow. There's a huge difference between infatuation (which is what I generally feel at the beginning of a relationship) and love. Therefore, telling your SO that you love them for the first time is usually informing them of a change in your emotional state (as I see it).
Telling someone that the status has changed makes sense, but is loving someone so rare that it warrants such a big deal when it is verbalized? I guess to some.. maybe I'm fortunate to have loved a lot.

And I don't think that emotions themselves are rational per se, but their [I]initiation[I] can be a decision. Hence the evaluation before a crush morphs into love.