Relationships and INTJ's

[ssfanatic]

I know that INTJ's are typically poor partners in a relationship, and i probably fit that mold, but also typically i do all i can to make it work. But my partner just never seams to relate. Is this something i can change about myself in order to "value small talk", which i look at as mundane, or must i atempt to find a person that will be able to put up with me?:huh:

[MetalWounds]

In my experience you can only fake interest for so long before you are overcome with repulsion. You more than likely will have to start the long, laborious task of finding a woman who can put up with us INTJs. Furthermore, don't ever change yourself to please someone, as you will die inside.

[ssfanatic]

You know, i was afraid you were going to say that. With my peculiar ways and interest i never expected relationships to come easily, but sometimes it just seams like the person who could listen to me ramble about things that retain to everyday life just dont exist.

[PortInStorm]

I don't know... if you're really committed to the relationship, and value the things they DO bring to the table (and it's really easy to take all the good stuff for granted when you've been in it for a while), you can try to get your mental fulfillment elsewhere.

[FoKuS]

Perfectionism is a strong trait for any INTJ and any little detail out of place will bother them. I, myself, being an INTJ find many things that bother me. Many of them are little things that most would not even consider. In a relationship an INTJ will find many problems with their partner and constantly feel the need to improve that issue.

[ssfanatic]

I don't know... if you're really committed to the relationship, and value the things they DO bring to the table (and it's really easy to take all the good stuff for granted when you've been in it for a while), you can try to get your mental fulfillment elsewhere.
But no matter how much you do appreciate the other individual, they still may not care for you. Unfortunately they have a say in the matter. No really, but there are things that i admire about this person greatly, though they may share the same appreciation for me and im honestly willing to work at it, but not willing to change who i am. I admire myself, flaws and all and really dont want to conform.

[elsdfr]

"Whats the point in having something if its not perfect? Yeah yeah, nothings perfect blah blah... but that doesn't mean you can't try! " - Me

I don't think its about an INTJ changing in order to fit into a relationship but more about being able to let go now and then. I've been "myself" in past relationships and been called all kinds of things and I could see it as being a long time before anyone would put up with it for for more than a few months ( I had a mid 20's crisis ).

Ahh small talk... its just one of those things most people love. Telling the other person that you will probably drift off so please excuse it can help. Taking the time (when you can) to actually ask and listen also helps soften it. Also admit that if they want you to listen more than they will have to put up with you needing to express you view now and then (I drift off if I don't), or perhaps tell them you're not trying to solve the problem (kills the fun apparently), just trying to get some sense out of it... hmm, actually maybe just listening, laughing, shaking your head and agreeing with their view is what you need to do. Oh yeah practice those expected facial expressions to.

GL, you'll need it. :p

[ssfanatic]

"Whats the point in having something if its not perfect? Yeah yeah, nothings perfect blah blah... but that doesn't mean you can't try! " - Me

I don't think its about an INTJ changing in order to fit into a relationship but more about being able to let go now and then. I've been "myself" in past relationships and been called all kinds of things and I could see it as being a long time before anyone would put up with it for for more than a few months ( I had a mid 20's crisis ).

Ahh small talk... its just one of those things most people love. Telling the other person that you will probably drift off so please excuse it can help. Taking the time (when you can) to actually ask and listen also helps soften it. Also admit that if they want you to listen more than they will have to put up with you needing to express you view now and then (I drift off if I don't), or perhaps tell them you're not trying to solve the problem (kills the fun apparently), just trying to get some sense out of it... hmm, actually maybe just listening, laughing, shaking your head and agreeing with their view is what you need to do. Oh yeah practice those expected facial expressions to.

GL, you'll need it. :laugh:
This is great, im an amazing listener, i can sit say "ye ye" and shake my head all day, but i dont really care about what we are talking about and never have any input. It just seams to spiral downward.
The ironic part about this is the fact that this whole conversation would be considered small talk. huh, now things become interesting.
But i have the ability to let go, but once the relationship is over, i wonder if i will ever be able to replace it, Its hard enough to feel comfortable around anyone in the first place.

[elsdfr]

You said your partner never relates and I find this a lot myself but can appreciate it because she brings a lot of other things to the relationship. Where as I know my friends (usually male NT types) will listen to my form of small talk. She thinks its strange where they think its good value, balance it perhaps?

What type is this other person and you why don't think they care for you, is it over?

Did you see the other relationship thread?

[ssfanatic]

You said your partner never relates and I find this a lot myself but can appreciate it because she brings a lot of other things to the relationship. Where as I know my friends (usually male NT types) will listen to my form of small talk. She thinks its strange where they think its good value, balance it perhaps?

What type is this other person and you why don't think they care for you, is it over?

Did you see the other relationship thread?
No i didnt see the other thread and they are an ISFJ. I dont know, maybe we arent as close as i thought we were. But yes, its over now, though maybe not forever.

[elsdfr]

No i didnt see the other thread and they are an ISFJ. I dont know, maybe we arent as close as i thought we were. But yes, its over now, though maybe not forever.

Pffft ISFJ, there's your problem!

As in I'm not sure if small talk is possible between and SF and NT, well not for long like you said.

[Solaris]

Pffft ISFJ, there's your problem!

As in I'm not sure if small talk is possible between and SF and NT, well not for long like you said.

Actually, I know an ISFJ/INTJ couple, and they are quite perfect for each other. Granted, he does have a well developed F, even if he doesn't react with it, I'm sure that helps. Also, she's so practical, that she's almost like a T sometimes.

[elsdfr]

Actually, I know an ISFJ/INTJ couple, and they are quite perfect for each other. Granted, he does have a well developed F, even if he doesn't react with it, I'm sure that helps. Also, she's so practical, that she's almost like a T sometimes.

Yes, definately lots of compromise required, more than usual anyway. Its probably a bad way to look at it as well :confused:

[toonia]

I know that INTJ's are typically poor partners in a relationship, and i probably fit that mold, but also typically i do all i can to make it work. But my partner just never seams to relate. Is this something i can change about myself in order to "value small talk", which i look at as mundane, or must i atempt to find a person that will be able to put up with me?:huh:
I would not characterize the INTJ as "poor partners in relationships". They are a rare type and one of the most abstract types, so characterizing the INTJ as a non-traditional partner could be more accurate. Interestingly I've met an INTJ- ISFJ couple also who seem to get along well. The ISFJ is consistent and patient, but also very grounding and concrete. They do tend to "make sense" as people which can be of benefit to the INT types.

There also seems to be some potential for the INTJ to pair with any of the IN-- types. If they are looking for a more introverted, abstract thinker then any of the IN--'s could hold potential. INFJs are also abstract, if not moreso than the INTJ. This is because they share Ni dominance, but the INFJ deals in intangible systems of feeling and values. They deal with these subjective, approximate systems in conceptual, abstract terms. This kind of pairing holds more potential for sharing ideas, but can also make for a more complex relationship on average in terms of how it interfaces with the real world.

[elsdfr]

INTJs giving each other relationship advice kinda does seem a bit like the blind leading the blind doesn't it?

I think Se can be a lot of fun but Fi is a minefield.

[ssfanatic]

Actually, I know an ISFJ/INTJ couple, and they are quite perfect for each other. Granted, he does have a well developed F, even if he doesn't react with it, I'm sure that helps. Also, she's so practical, that she's almost like a T sometimes.
Well, i hate to say it but i am not balanced in the slightest. I score an 89 and 88 in IN and only an 54 22 in TJ. Not sure about my partner but i would say they would fare the same.

[Antares]

Pffft ISFJ, there's your problem!

As in I'm not sure if small talk is possible between and SF and NT, well not for long like you said.

I have an ISFJ mother, which could be quite a different relationship, but essentially, we get along quite well most of the time, but when we argue, all hell breaks loose.

[Uytuun]

Hmm...well, I like to look at relationships as a challenge...we tend to be naturally good at the rest of life, and here is something that is not exactly in our area of expertise.

Plus, I think I need someone around for my mental stability. Me, myself and my idle brain is a recipe for disaster. :p I also deep down like to care about people (*gasp*). It's probably an unconventional kind of affection, but it's cerainly there...I can imagine that it must be a really liberating feeling when the person you're in love with manages to break through your shell...and you can actually lose part of the self-control etc.

I know that there aren't that many people that feel attracted to us and that we are only attracted to a select few, but it's not as if it's impossible. ;) The only type that I hope I will never be involved with is ESFJ (there aren't many ESFJ males anyway, I'd guess). My mother is ESFJ, and although I do love her, we're simply on two different planets.

[ssfanatic]

Hmm...well, I like to look at relationships as a challenge...we tend to be naturally good at the rest of life, and here is something that is not exactly in our area of expertise.

Plus, I think I need someone around for my mental stability. Me, myself and my idle brain is a recipe for disaster. :p I also deep down like to care about people (*gasp*). It's probably an unconventional kind of affection, but it's cerainly there...I can imagine that it must be a really liberating feeling when the person you're in love with manages to break through your shell...and you can actually lose part of the self-control etc.

I know that there aren't that many people that feel attracted to us and that we are only attracted to a select few, but it's not as if it's impossible. ;) The only type that I hope I will never be involved with is ESFJ (there aren't many ESFJ males anyway, I'd guess). My mother is ESFJ, and although I do love her, we're simply on two different planets.
I think we all feel the same way you do and you put it masterfully. Deep down i do like to care for people, its just the fact that we can only care for a select few. Our trust is not easily earned, not bec we are over protective, but just bec we see no reason to give what has not been earned.
And i completely agree that an introverted person is not very good for me. I need someone to help me with my social life, its never been the most immaculate thing but its a work in progress :) My mind wonders when im not in a conversation and i tend to mentally leave wherever i am, and unfortunately you cant socialize while in deep thought.
But im pretty sure that this girl is not for me.

[PortInStorm]

Hmm...well, I like to look at relationships as a challenge...we tend to be naturally good at the rest of life, and here is something that is not exactly in our area of expertise.

Plus, I think I need someone around for my mental stability. Me, myself and my idle brain is a recipe for disaster. :p I also deep down like to care about people (*gasp*). It's probably an unconventional kind of affection, but it's cerainly there...I can imagine that it must be a really liberating feeling when the person you're in love with manages to break through your shell...and you can actually lose part of the self-control etc.

I know that there aren't that many people that feel attracted to us and that we are only attracted to a select few, but it's not as if it's impossible. ;) The only type that I hope I will never be involved with is ESFJ (there aren't many ESFJ males anyway, I'd guess). My mother is ESFJ, and although I do love her, we're simply on two different planets.
That makes me laugh- I'm married to one. But ya, I have to agree that we're on two different planets. But that's what makes him good at what I'm not. Sometimes intergalactic communication gets tiring, true.....

[ssfanatic]

That makes me laugh- I'm married to one. But ya, I have to agree that we're on two different planets. But that's what makes him good at what I'm not. Sometimes intergalactic communication gets tiring, true.....
Well, being on two different planets and talking is better than being in the same room and never speaking :)

[PortInStorm]

:laugh:

[OmegaPsi]

Personally, I expect my self to be alone all my life..

[Femme de Homme INTJ]

Perfectionism is a strong trait for any INTJ and any little detail out of place will bother them. I, myself, being an INTJ find many things that bother me. Many of them are little things that most would not even consider. In a relationship an INTJ will find many problems with their partner and constantly feel the need to improve that issue.


I hear you, I sometimes give people plastic surgeries in my mind. I'm pretty sure that's not what you're talking about though...

To the gentleman who started this thread: INTJs are not bad relationship partners. You just play by a different game, no game. The best thing an INTJ can learn is to be merciful to others. Secondly, God did not make you to be all happy-feely, so don't let yourself believe that something is wrong with you.

[Tsuru]

Hehe, you humans and your "relations." :P

[elsdfr]

Personally, I expect my self to be alone all my life..

I do to if I did what comes naturally but the last thing I want to end saying is "what if?" or somehow think I missed something because I wasn't able to share :embarassed:

Plus I really want to see a mini me ;D

[Wapiti]

Is this something i can change about myself in order to "value small talk", which i look at as mundane, or must i atempt to find a person that will be able to put up with me?:huh:

I don't think so, I've been married for over 13 years now, the small talk is still one of the hardest parts. I take the committment I made seriously though, that whole til death part I meant. So I do my best to tolerate some of the small talk but in my experience, I don't think you will ever change.

You more than likely will have to start the long, laborious task of finding a woman who can put up with us INTJs. Furthermore, don't ever change yourself to please someone, as you will die inside.

I agree that the process may be long and laborious. Just know what you want in a relationship. Study personality types and try to figure out what your looking for. The most important part is that you don't settle for anything less than what you want.

INTJs giving each other relationship advice kinda does seem a bit like the blind leading the blind doesn't it?

Absolutely, ignore everything I say.


Personally, I expect my self to be alone all my life..

I think that is sad but no expectations = no disappointments.

[Zilal]

I think it'd be best to find somebody more like you... they are out there... but in the meantime, practice small talk skills all the same. They might come in handy. Practicing how to be more moderate is a good thing, even if you find it's too exhausting to be that way much of the time.

I also disagree with the idea that INTJs make poor mates, but it is possible that the INTJs on this forum would make less-than-ideal mates... we're probably younger and maybe more extreme than other INTJs who spend less time online and wouldn't think to search something like this out. I do think we're less likely to hear from INTJs who've had quite successful relationships, just because they're less likely to be on the forum.

[ssfanatic]

I think it'd be best to find somebody more like you... they are out there... but in the meantime, practice small talk skills all the same. They might come in handy. Practicing how to be more moderate is a good thing, even if you find it's too exhausting to be that way much of the time.

I also disagree with the idea that INTJs make poor mates, but it is possible that the INTJs on this forum would make less-than-ideal mates... we're probably younger and maybe more extreme than other INTJs who spend less time online and wouldn't think to search something like this out. I do think we're less likely to hear from INTJs who've had quite successful relationships, just because they're less likely to be on the forum.
My new years resolution was/is to become more social :)
And i shouldnt have said they make poor partners, i really need to fix that! I just mean we are hard to relate too. I guess i just need to be patient. Unfortunately thats not one of my stronger traits.

[Colette]

I know that INTJ's are typically poor partners in a relationship, and i probably fit that mold, but also typically i do all i can to make it work. But my partner just never seams to relate. Is this something i can change about myself in order to "value small talk", which i look at as mundane, or must i atempt to find a person that will be able to put up with me?:huh:

Is this an existing partner, or a prospective, hypothetical one? That may make a difference to my reply.

[ssfanatic]

Is this an existing partner, or a prospective, hypothetical one? That may make a difference to my reply.
Well, it used to be an existing partner, its broken off now. Oh well, let go and move on right :)

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I know that INTJ's are typically poor partners in a relationship, and i probably fit that mold, but also typically i do all i can to make it work. But my partner just never seams to relate. Is this something i can change about myself in order to "value small talk", which i look at as mundane, or must i atempt to find a person that will be able to put up with me?:huh:
I'm in the process of trying to make a relationship with an ESFJ work. We've been together for 7 years and just moved in together 5 months ago. Maybe it's different for male INTJ's vs. female INTJ's, but he seems to think I'm very worthwhile and is apparently very in love with me. My reaction to that is always the same. Why?

Maybe us INTJ's are somewhat insecure about what we have to bring to a relationship, but maybe we bring alot that we can't even see?

[Merle]

Uytuun - I had to laugh at your comment about ESFJ's! - I had a longterm relationship with one, I'm an INTJ(female)...seriously inadvisable!
We just could not relate on any level... I stuck with it for a while because he professed to love me so much that I thought it may be worth the effort... but I just ended up despising him...which was a pretty horrible situation to be in to tell you the truth.

[Solaris]

I'm in the process of trying to make a relationship with an ESFJ work. We've been together for 7 years and just moved in together 5 months ago. Maybe it's different for male INTJ's vs. female INTJ's, but he seems to think I'm very worthwhile and is apparently very in love with me. My reaction to that is always the same. Why?

Maybe us INTJ's are somewhat insecure about what we have to bring to a relationship, but maybe we bring alot that we can't even see?

I'm sorry, I might be just about to go way off here, but...

What in the world are you doing with somebody that you don't feel the same for? I cannot even find words for how much I am intolerant of people staying in a relationship just because the other professes to think so highly of the one staying because they can. This is not good for anyone. It keeps both parties from being in truly fulfilling relationships, and usually creates more negative emotions.

Maybe you really feel wonderfully about your ESFJ guy, but if you don't...then why are you still in it? Somebody loving me just isn't enough (I can speak from experience here), and I cannot understand others for whom it is enough.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I'm sorry, I might be just about to go way off here, but...

What in the world are you doing with somebody that you don't feel the same for? I cannot even find words for how much I am intolerant of people staying in a relationship just because the other professes to think so highly of the one staying because they can. This is not good for anyone. It keeps both parties from being in truly fulfilling relationships, and usually creates more negative emotions.

Maybe you really feel wonderfully about your ESFJ guy, but if you don't...then why are you still in it? Somebody loving me just isn't enough (I can speak from experience here), and I cannot understand others for whom it is enough.
I can't help but wonder where all that intolerance comes from? It makes me wonder if INTJ's arn't extremely intolerant of ideas and viewpoints that are not their own. Speaking for myself.......I'm one of the most intolerant people I know.

By the way......I'm very much in love with my ESFJ.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 2 minutes and 35 seconds later...

Uytuun - I had to laugh at your comment about ESFJ's! - I had a longterm relationship with one, I'm an INTJ(female)...seriously inadvisable!
We just could not relate on any level... I stuck with it for a while because he professed to love me so much that I thought it may be worth the effort... but I just ended up despising him...which was a pretty horrible situation to be in to tell you the truth.
Can I ask you what made you despise him? I mean was it because you couldn't relate to him or was it because he let you use him badly or something else?

I wonder what would make you laugh over something like that?

[Solaris]

I can't help but wonder where all that intolerance comes from? It makes me wonder if INTJ's arn't extremely intolerant of ideas and viewpoints that are not their own. Speaking for myself.......I'm one of the most intolerant people I know.

By the way......I'm very much in love with my ESFJ.


First, let me say I am glad you are in love with your ESFJ. And kudos to you for trying to improve things. Truly, I mean that.

The intolerance comes from seeing people in relationships (and having done it once myself) in which one party seems to be staying for the benefit of the other. It makes me so angry, because it just doesn't make sense. I am, oddly, both intolerant and extremely tolerant. That is, I am so interested in people having their own independence, that I will accept a great deal of odd behavior; however, if it's something that makes no sense, or is contrary to common sense, I become extremely intolerant and impatient with said behavior.

[Merle]

Can I ask you what made you despise him? I mean was it because you couldn't relate to him or was it because he let you use him badly or something else?

I wonder what would make you laugh over something like that?

When we first started going out he seemed so loving... but eventually I just came to see it as a kind of desperate need for me to respond in kind... he would be all over me, but not because it was some spontaneous expression of love but because he was so needy.. and he was kind of acting out what he wanted me to be doing to him... I always felt like it wasn't real... which made me hate it... but then I also hated the kind of person that so desperately needs another person's stamp of approval to feel good about themselves... that, I suppose, is what really made me despise him... I guess I saw him as completely weak...
He also had completely ridiculous ideas about what a relationship should be like...i.e. perfection- no fighting ever, and not even just no fighting...I think he actually thinks that the perfect relationship is a kind of joining of two halves... which for me is a total anathema - I'm totally whole by myself, thank-you very much.
Anyway... I guess it's not funny, it wasn't funny at the time... but it wasn't that long ago - we split up about 9 months ago... but I guess it wasn't useless... because I'm able to look at objectively and see that I was totally stubborn and unyielding... and being able to do that must mean that it helped me become more aware of my own faults and so more able to deal with them in the future... and being able to laugh about it now must mean that I'm kind of looking back at a different person... if that makes any sense....

[vaguely dissatisfied]

First, let me say I am glad you are in love with your ESFJ. And kudos to you for trying to improve things. Truly, I mean that.

The intolerance comes from seeing people in relationships (and having done it once myself) in which one party seems to be staying for the benefit of the other. It makes me so angry, because it just doesn't make sense. I am, oddly, both intolerant and extremely tolerant. That is, I am so interested in people having their own independence, that I will accept a great deal of odd behavior; however, if it's something that makes no sense, or is contrary to common sense, I become extremely intolerant and impatient with said behavior.
I know what you mean. I don't really understand why, but I get extremely frustrated with and, therefore, become intolerant of other people. No matter how long or how hard I try......I just can't seem to be able to tolerate them. I recognize this as my problem and not theirs, but I really am at my wits end as to how to get past it.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 11 minutes and 48 seconds later...

When we first started going out he seemed so loving... but eventually I just came to see it as a kind of desperate need for me to respond in kind... he would be all over me, but not because it was some spontaneous expression of love but because he was so needy.. and he was kind of acting out what he wanted me to be doing to him... I always felt like it wasn't real... which made me hate it... but then I also hated the kind of person that so desperately needs another person's stamp of approval to feel good about themselves... that, I suppose, is what really made me despise him... I guess I saw him as completely weak...
He also had completely ridiculous ideas about what a relationship should be like...i.e. perfection- no fighting ever, and not even just no fighting...I think he actually thinks that the perfect relationship is a kind of joining of two halves... which for me is a total anathema - I'm totally whole by myself, thank-you very much.
Anyway... I guess it's not funny, it wasn't funny at the time... but it wasn't that long ago - we split up about 9 months ago... but I guess it wasn't useless... because I'm able to look at objectively and see that I was totally stubborn and unyielding... and being able to do that must mean that it helped me become more aware of my own faults and so more able to deal with them in the future... and being able to laugh about it now must mean that I'm kind of looking back at a different person... if that makes any sense....
That totally makes sense. It's as if you've described my relationship exactly except that I interpret my ESFJ's overt affection as a way of making himself feel better (kinda like a baby sucking it's thumb). I suppose that is probably the driving force behind all of us wanting affection (acceptance, belonging, coping....you know the drill). And this bothers me because I feel that he doesn't stop to think about whether or not I want that much affection (and of course, being an INTJ, you already know I don't). It isn't that I don't want affection.......just not as much as he does.

So I end up feeling this enormous amount of pressure and then I get stressed and annoyed with him. And to top it all off, he doesn't even seem to be aware of his behaviour which further annoys me because I am so completely aware of how my behaviour is affecting him! I must admit I envy his blissfull ingnorance.

[Merle]

And this bothers me because I feel that he doesn't stop to think about whether or not I want that much affection (and of course, being an INTJ, you already know I don't). It isn't that I don't want affection.......just not as much as he does.

So I end up feeling this enormous amount of pressure and then I get stressed and annoyed with him. And to top it all off, he doesn't even seem to be aware of his behaviour which further annoys me because I am so completely aware of how my behaviour is affecting him! I must admit I envy his blissfull ingnorance.
Yes!
And - the problem for me is the more that I have that affection pushed on me the more I resent it and don't return it.
I would always try to explain to him that if he didn't constantly harrangue me - i.e. gave me some space, then of course when I felt tender towards him I would be affectionate... but he never gave me time to feel tender because he was always there, always pushing...
YOu know, I always felt like he made me become a bit of bullying ENTJ type... I always felt like an aggressive, mean person around him...other people can turn me into a really soft sensual person(I'm thinking of another guy, who I think is ENTP)...but with him I became this hard, cold, steel box...

[elsdfr]

Is it just me or do other types say... get bored.. see that you might be doing something so they decide to get touchie, for what reason, attention? Then get offended when you tell them to stop, they take it personally and get huffy and then me not being bothered at the time ignore it only to see they hold it against you for another 24 hours (thats a big WTF). This used to happen and me not understanding other types I just went on being and Ahole about it. Now I just point out that if I'm stressed, busy or doing something getting touchie is NOT going to solve the problem or make me feel better, just leave me alone :thumbsup:

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Yes!
And - the problem for me is the more that I have that affection pushed on me the more I resent it and don't return it.
I would always try to explain to him that if he didn't constantly harrangue me - i.e. gave me some space, then of course when I felt tender towards him I would be affectionate... but he never gave me time to feel tender because he was always there, always pushing...
YOu know, I always felt like he made me become a bit of bullying ENTJ type... I always felt like an aggressive, mean person around him...other people can turn me into a really soft sensual person(I'm thinking of another guy, who I think is ENTP)...but with him I became this hard, cold, steel box...
Precisely! And alot of that is also due to what seems to be a reluctance on an EFSJ's part to engage in anything that looks like conflict and a defensivness they display when they feel they are being criticized . So it always looks like I'm trying to start a fight when all I really want to do is have a conversation about the things that are bugging me in the hopes that we can resolve them.

[Caramel]

I can't stand EFSJs. Loud, whiners, controlfreaks, crybabies, permanent bad moods.. and all that in order for someone to like them / being noticed. They open their mouth and spout their opinions on everything without even realising what they are saying, who they are saying it to or why, just to come off as interesting. Pushing, pulling... being around them is a like a game of tug-o-war.

Or maybe I've just never met a healthy ESFJ.

So it always looks like I'm trying to start a fight when all I really want to do is have a conversation about the things that are bugging me in the hopes that we can resolve them.

I have this with my ENFP aswell, but we can work around it by relating to shared Fi and Te.

Since INTJ/ESFJ have no shared functions, it must be harder to relate.

[szaxazs]

My new years resolution was/is to become more social :)
And i shouldnt have said they make poor partners, i really need to fix that! I just mean we are hard to relate too. I guess i just need to be patient. Unfortunately thats not one of my stronger traits.

You want to become more social why?/for whom?
If you want to become more social because this would make you feel more comfortable or better with yourself then it's ok.
If from the other side you want to become more social for the sake of being social, that is to tolerate thinks like "small talk", then in my opinion you should define what you want to achieve, in your mind, and see whether or not you really want to/have to change.
I dont think you must change an aspect of you for the sake of changing or just to become more friendly to the eyes of others. You want others to accept you the way you are. If they don't like you, their problem. A lot of us are waiting for a "special one", but this doesn't mean we must change our personalities just to be liked more. Be yourself at all times.

[Sheepo]

You will have to find another person that you could relate with. Might as well talk to yourself rather than with some brickwall-like person.

Just find the right person, there's always one... where you'd least expect it :D .

[Solaris]

You want to become more social why?/for whom?
If you want to become more social because this would make you feel more comfortable or better with yourself then it's ok.
If from the other side you want to become more social for the sake of being social, that is to tolerate thinks like "small talk", then in my opinion you should define what you want to achieve, in your mind, and see whether or not you really want to/have to change.
I dont think you must change an aspect of you for the sake of changing or just to become more friendly to the eyes of others. You want others to accept you the way you are. If they don't like you, their problem. A lot of us are waiting for a "special one", but this doesn't mean we must change our personalities just to be liked more. Be yourself at all times.

I couldn't agree more.

[Colette]

I'm in the process of trying to make a relationship with an ESFJ work. We've been together for 7 years and just moved in together 5 months ago.

I ask you this: why are you even trying to make a relationship work? Does n't the fact that you have to do this suggest to you that you may have bought the wrong model? :huh:

[Merle]

I ask you this: why are you even trying to make a relationship work? Does n't the fact that you have to do this suggest to you that you may have bought the wrong model? :huh:

I don't think that's entirely true... although I do think that sometimes you do just have to know when to say 'o.k. it's just not working'...
But I think generally all relationships need work... a lot of work... sometimes we unconciously accomodate each other but somethimes we really have to think about it and actively change the way we interact... that doesn't mean you have to change who you are... just that you have to be prepared for a little give and take... I've always found that difficult - especially if I'm being directly asked... because I tend to automatically view it as an attempt to control me... but it really isn't most of the time.

[elsdfr]

I think the fact is some INTJs come to a point after say a lack a of relationships or a number of failed ones where they question what the real problem is.

I guess most of us grow overly confident in what ever we do and figure the inability to relate to others their fault. Personally this is what I was always thinking but after looking at other types the fact is very few people are naturally attracted to us. And if they are we are either too withdrawn as males and the females come across as off putting due to what ever other factors for both. All of this can be changed and personally I think its just a case of the INTJ learning to know when or how to let go of their "innate behavior". Personally mine was the need to fault everything before anything happens... what's yours?

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I ask you this: why are you even trying to make a relationship work? Does n't the fact that you have to do this suggest to you that you may have bought the wrong model? :huh:
Well this is exactly my dilemma. Up to now I have never really tried to make a relationship with a man work. I believe that my abilities with people and especially with intimate relationships are limited to say the least. And I have been told that relationships take work.

So......what kind of work? How much work? How much work is too much work? When do you stick it out and when do you throw in the towel? How committed are you supposed to be and for what reasons?

There's more of the same, but you get the point.





vaguely dissatisfied added to this post, 7 minutes and 47 seconds later...

I think the fact is some INTJs come to a point after say a lack a of relationships or a number of failed ones where they question what the real problem is.

I guess most of us grow overly confident in what ever we do and figure the inability to relate to others their fault. Personally this is what I was always thinking but after looking at other types the fact is very few people are naturally attracted to us. And if they are we are either too withdrawn as males and the females come across as off putting due to what ever other factors for both. All of this can be changed and personally I think its just a case of the INTJ learning to know when or how to let go of their "innate behavior". Personally mine was the need to fault everything before anything happens... what's yours?
I really don't know much about how attracted other types are to INTJ's. I know that I was very unpopular in high school, but that changed quite a bit once I went out into the 'real world'. I think that many boys and a number of men probably find quiet, confident, and straightforward women unattractive. However, there are a significant number of very confident men who find us intriguing.

The problem for me has not been in attracting those men, but in maintaining a sustainable relationship with them.

[Merle]

I guess most of us grow overly confident in what ever we do and figure the inability to relate to others their fault.

Personally this is my problem... or it's not 'their fault' per se but I tend to get all high and mighty and think that *whoever* is just stupid and can't see the truth...or is unable to face the truth etc.... which actually I think is just my ego getting in the way of me seeing the truth lol...
When I was talking about relationships taking work... I think what I meant to say is that you have to be prepared to work on your own behaviour for a relationship to work, in the relationships I've had that ended up worst I behaved like a big fat stubborn rock, basically saying 'if you don't like me like this, then you don't like me- so don't go out with me'...while some poor schmuck was only trying to say 'I really do like you.... but...(for example) could you buy another kind of cereal because I can't eat weetabix' lol...
That's a totally stupid example, but it's symptomatic of the resistance I can show...
but once you're aware of it... you know it's usually pretty silly... and then you can start to be more accomodating.

[elsdfr]

Sorry I have no ideas on maintaining a relationship, I'm still getting over the "person willing to put up with me" phase... its rather cliche but perhaps just feeling and sensing situations rather than relying on what you know?? just letting go etc.. but I say that knowing chances are you will get hurt (again) but hey. Life sucks, get a fucking helmet. lol

Why are relationships hard? "Look, I don't like meeting new people (they generally suck), I'm terrible at small talk and going to new places makes me anxious... what's your name?"

What do you mean by a sustainable relationship?

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Sorry I have no ideas on maintaining a relationship, I'm still getting over the "person willing to put up with me" phase... its rather cliche but perhaps just feeling and sensing situations rather than relying on what you know?? just letting go etc.. but I say that knowing chances are you will get hurt (again) but hey. Life sucks, get a fucking helmet. lol

What do you mean by a sustainable relationship?
I guess, by sustainable relationship, I mean a long-term and healthy intimate relationship.

It sounds like you may be in a 'I'll hurt you before you can hurt me' or 'I'll get out before I get hurt' phase?

[Uytuun]

However, there are a significant number of very confident men who find us intriguing.

I find this to be true...don't lose hope just yet INTJ women. :p Most men really don't like us, but there's an interesting minority that is instantly drawn to us. I just wouldn't say that they are always confident.

I'm going to guess that this is S-N related again.

Besides, the ones that don't like us are generally the ones we don't like either, so there's no real problem there, I guess.

[PortInStorm]

@Merle- giggled at the Weetabix example... love weetabix, and I can be stubborn even in something as insignificant as groceries!

[elsdfr]

I guess, by sustainable relationship, I mean a long-term and healthy intimate relationship.

It sounds like you may be in a 'I'll hurt you before you can hurt me' or 'I'll get out before I get hurt' phase?

Something like that.. or perhaps a 'how do you figure out if you can tollerate a person for the rest of your life before you get attached on some unreasonable emotional level' again... phase? :confused: :laugh:

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Something like that.. or perhaps a 'how do you figure out if you can tollerate a person for the rest of your life before you get attached on some unreasonable emotional level' again... phase? :confused: :laugh:
Yeah.........I think I'm always in that phase. Tolerance is definately NOT my middle name. If I could find a way to be more tolerant (much more) I would definately DO IT!

But which is worse.....to become attached and go through that particular turmoil only to have things not work out or to remain alone? Sometimes I think one and then I think the other. It seems to depend on my mood. I mean whether I'm in an 'I want to be alone' mood, or an 'I feel like being with someone' mood.

Not a very mature way of dealing with things.... is it?

[elsdfr]

Tolerance huh? Well my middle name would be 'emotionally immature' then.. although I have gotten better since then.

I also agree with the mood thing. I once, in a strange INTJ humor kind of way, mentioned that perhaps we could have a month on month of kind of relationship. I thought it was brilliant and worth discussing but as usual the other person didn't think so.

Being highly independent is also a problem. Letting someone in seems to be on some level admitting you are reliant on them. Otherwise the person would feel alienated wouldn't they? What makes a healthy relationship? From what I understand others would just know it feels right... but what happens for rationals, are we condemned to always seeing a relationship as being purely rational? While I know you probably shouldn't it seems we need to rely on a poor Fi otherwise and past experience tells me when that is crushed I'm anything but 'rational' *sigh*. Ahh well at least we've got something interesting to work on, huh? :laugh:

[vaguely dissatisfied]

Sadly, the month to month thing makes sense to me too. But, if I'm honest with myself, I recognize this as self protection and that is really just another form of selfishness. Sometimes I feel like a sociopath who has no idea what to feel and so I watch everyone around me to try to get some clues. I instinctively (or intuitively) see that I'm doing it wrong, but am at a loss as to how other people just seem to know what to feel in any given situation.

I think the independance thing may be a very important key to becoming more successful within a relationship. It seems to me that successful, long-term, and happy relationships contain a large degree of mutual dependance. If you can look at dependance (not total dependance) on another person as a positive thing, then I think you may find an important clue to relationship success.

[Astra]

Well this is exactly my dilemma. Up to now I have never really tried to make a relationship with a man work. I believe that my abilities with people and especially with intimate relationships are limited to say the least. And I have been told that relationships take work.

So......what kind of work? How much work? How much work is too much work? When do you stick it out and when do you throw in the towel? How committed are you supposed to be and for what reasons?

I'm still in my first serious relationship (16 years so far...), and he's an INTJ. It does take a lot of work and thought and making allowances for each other, but the thing that keeps us both working at it is just knowing that we are right for each other. Corny, but true.

I suppose the fact that we are both INTJs means we know we'd both struggle a bit to find a) anyone else we actually liked enough to be with and b) anyone else who'd put up with either of us, but that very scarcity is what makes us both appreciate the other more, because it is a bit of a needle-in-a-haystack thing.

There is no point at all IMHO in working at the wrong relationship in the hope of making it right. It just isn't going to happen and you'll end up wondering why you wasted so much time over it.

[Merle]

I think the independance thing may be a very important key to becoming more successful within a relationship. It seems to me that successful, long-term, and happy relationships contain a large degree of mutual dependance. If you can look at dependance (not total dependance) on another person as a positive thing, then I think you may find an important clue to relationship success.

I think you're right. And also, you know, coming to the realisation that actually you probably have some things to learn from the other person in terms of how to do things - I know I instinctively feel that my way is right, but, intellectually I know that isn't true... it's probably an easier thing to do with someone who operates more like you only with the F instead of the T... ie an INFJ/ENFJ...because you can understand them better and see that they're kind of like you only with more feeling...
An ESFJ just appears totally alien...

[Solaris]

Let me just say that relationships can go screw themselves. Romantic and otherwise. They are just annoying, and I'm tired of the drama they cause. Ugh.

[Uytuun]

Independence - I hate being in love for that reason: bye bye stoic calm and self-sufficiency...all of a sudden your happiness depends upon the approval of another person. And you can start over-analysing and going from yes, he feels the same way to nooo...never. And you have to start pondering communication: will he think it's too much if I write him another e-mail, why was I so blunt to him the other time? Do I indicate I like him enough or too much? What did he mean when he said x? No plan you construct will give you 100% certainty of a positive outcome, and yet that's the only thing your problem-solving mind seems to be able to do: make plans, schemes, analyses...no I can't go with the flow. And emotion overrules ratio.

It is SO exhausting...I fail to see why people find this a blissful state.

[quentin]

Exactly. I am usually a reasonable guy, but if I ever ..... on the extremely rare ocassions.....happen to fall for a girl, I totally lose all control. I become everything that I usually am not. I become paranoid and insecure and obsessive - surefire ways to win a woman!

[jjelovich]

Exactly. I am usually a reasonable guy, but if I ever ..... on the extremely rare ocassions.....happen to fall for a girl, I totally lose all control. I become everything that I usually am not. I become paranoid and insecure and obsessive - surefire ways to win a woman!

Wow! This and all the rest is just as true for me, yet there is hope; there is always hope. We can learn, anything, it just takes time and patience, as hard as that is. Also I think it would be sad for an INTJ to be alone, not because being alone is sad, beacuse we really do have a lot we could offer in an intamite relationship IF we are willing and they are willing. Time and hope, I believe are key. Learn who you are and what you need/want from someone else.

[Learning]

I know that INTJ's are typically poor partners in a relationship, and i probably fit that mold, but also typically i do all i can to make it work. But my partner just never seams to relate. Is this something i can change about myself in order to "value small talk", which i look at as mundane, or must i atempt to find a person that will be able to put up with me?:huh:

I hate small talk, too. But if I value the person, then having that motivation can help me to work on it a bit more...a labor of love so to speak. Less burdensome. It may be wearisome in the beginning, but will be likely to pay off in the long run.

[vaguely dissatisfied]

I think you're right. And also, you know, coming to the realisation that actually you probably have some things to learn from the other person in terms of how to do things - I know I instinctively feel that my way is right, but, intellectually I know that isn't true... it's probably an easier thing to do with someone who operates more like you only with the F instead of the T... ie an INFJ/ENFJ...because you can understand them better and see that they're kind of like you only with more feeling...
An ESFJ just appears totally alien...
Yes! And another thing.... I think I'm beginning to recognize the half-way point. What I mean by the half-way point is not going to extremes by expecting him to change a great deal of who he is for me (which often seems the most reasonable and logical thing to do) and not expecting myself to put up with whatever comes my way (which is pretty much impossible to do). But rather, asking for a certain amount of continual effort from him and the same sort of effort from myself.

He and I recently discussed the amount of energy required for this relationship to work. We both agreed that it seemed to be alot because of our different personality types. I asked him if he thought it was worth the effort and without hesitation he said, "Of course! Nothing good comes easily....or at least that's how it seems to be most of the time." So I think we have a pretty good chance since we're both so willing and may be able as well.

[Merle]

To Vaguely Dissatisfied: I'm so pleased for you:) It's the easiest thing to just go into your shell and never really try to work through anything - what you're doing is the opposite - and with all this talk about control/being conrtolled etc - I think actually saying 'we have work to do - lets both try and change' is the most positive form of self-control - you're taking control of yourself and not letting personality insticts rule your life. I'm kind of ashamed that I couldn't do that before, but I'm young- it takes time to understand your own impulses. I hope everything works out well for you two, I'm sure it will... but even if it doesn't you've learned about yourself and done really positive things, so it's all good:)

[vaguely dissatisfied]

To Vaguely Dissatisfied: I'm so pleased for you:) It's the easiest thing to just go into your shell and never really try to work through anything - what you're doing is the opposite - and with all this talk about control/being conrtolled etc - I think actually saying 'we have work to do - lets both try and change' is the most positive form of self-control - you're taking control of yourself and not letting personality insticts rule your life. I'm kind of ashamed that I couldn't do that before, but I'm young- it takes time to understand your own impulses. I hope everything works out well for you two, I'm sure it will... but even if it doesn't you've learned about yourself and done really positive things, so it's all good:)
You're sweet. And you're right about being young and things being a little more difficult. Hopefully........with age comes wisdom.......and in my case it's taken almost 50 years. It sounds like it will take alot less time for you.

[elsdfr]

Funnily enough I was talking to a friend yesterday. He was asking about a recent relationship and how it was going etc. Anyway, I was umming and ahhing for a bit as I was shocked by the sudden questioning when he said "Look, I'm sure you're fine but promise me you won't over think yourself out of this one?". So yeah I sat speechless for a second due to all of what I verbalised and thought about recently and I was a bit amazed that he said it. He's known me for a long time and has never really been that forthright about this kind of thing either... strange days!

[Wapiti]

Wow! This and all the rest is just as true for me, yet there is hope; there is always hope. We can learn, anything, it just takes time and patience, as hard as that is. Also I think it would be sad for an INTJ to be alone, not because being alone is sad, beacuse we really do have a lot we could offer in an intamite relationship IF we are willing and they are willing. Time and hope, I believe are key. Learn who you are and what you need/want from someone else.

I find this posting so profound. This hits me right where I am. I think it is sad as well for an INTJ to be alone because I believe we have much to offer as well. People just don't understand that and never will because we have a hard time expressing our emotions because we don't fully understand them ourselves. Our emotions (at least for me) are expressed logically and are displayed by how I live, by sacrifices I make and things I do. I have recently wavered in why my wife is with me and whether or not she thinks I love her to the point I just bluntly asked her. She replied with the several things with one underlying factor that I needed to hear - she knew I cared for her. This is something I have rarely verbally expressed but I have clearly expressed by the way I live my relationship with her. I really do deeply care, more than she will ever know. There is hope, I am learning to better express my love to her in ways that she understands - it involves dealing with my emotions which is the difficult part.

To Vaguely Dissatisfied: I'm so pleased for you:) It's the easiest thing to just go into your shell and never really try to work through anything - what you're doing is the opposite - and with all this talk about control/being conrtolled etc - I think actually saying 'we have work to do - lets both try and change' is the most positive form of self-control - you're taking control of yourself and not letting personality insticts rule your life. I'm kind of ashamed that I couldn't do that before, but I'm young- it takes time to understand your own impulses. I hope everything works out well for you two, I'm sure it will... but even if it doesn't you've learned about yourself and done really positive things, so it's all good:)

To Merle: I think that you are on to something here that will change the rest of your life. It does take time to understand your own impulses and I believe that understanding yourself is the key in all of this. I too am somewhat ashamed that I could not do this before as well but from here forward, I will never be the same.


Exactly. I am usually a reasonable guy, but if I ever ..... on the extremely rare ocassions.....happen to fall for a girl, I totally lose all control. I become everything that I usually am not. I become paranoid and insecure and obsessive - surefire ways to win a woman!

I understand completely what you say when you become everything that usually are not. I've done things and said things that are just not me. I believe this has to do with understanding how you react to your emotions. I think as INTJs we just don't know how to handle our emotions - at least for me, I must learn how to deal with them. Until you allow yourself to experience such intense emotions a few times and then see how you react and do your best to understand your reactions. Then you can apply logic and understanding to how you react to your emotions and better control your impulses.

Something like that.. or perhaps a 'how do you figure out if you can tollerate a person for the rest of your life before you get attached on some unreasonable emotional level' again... phase? :confused: :laugh:

I couldn't agree more. At some point you've just got to decide if you think the risk is worth the reward and go for it. A conscious effort has to be made to invest some time and the fearful emotions. It is risky, we are hard to get to know and we usually withhold part of ourselves. It is a double edged sword, how can we expect to get to fully know someone and determine whether or not we want to risk trying to spend the rest of our lives with them while at the same time we hold back some of who we are and don't fully let someone know who we are? Risk is involved.

[elsdfr]

I couldn't agree more. At some point you've just got to decide if you think the risk is worth the reward and go for it. A conscious effort has to be made to invest some time and the fearful emotions. It is risky, we are hard to get to know and we usually withhold part of ourselves. It is a double edged sword, how can we expect to get to fully know someone and determine whether or not we want to risk trying to spend the rest of our lives with them while at the same time we hold back some of who we are and don't fully let someone know who we are? Risk is involved.

Risk huh? I did work in risk management/finance for three years and continue to pursue my own angles on it. Looks like work in controlling my live in more than one way :stunned:

[Necrosis]

I find this posting so profound. This hits me right where I am. I think it is sad as well for an INTJ to be alone because I believe we have much to offer as well. People just don't understand that and never will because we have a hard time expressing our emotions because we don't fully understand them ourselves. Our emotions (at least for me) are expressed logically and are displayed by how I live, by sacrifices I make and things I do. I have recently wavered in why my wife is with me and whether or not she thinks I love her to the point I just bluntly asked her. She replied with the several things with one underlying factor that I needed to hear - she knew I cared for her. This is something I have rarely verbally expressed but I have clearly expressed by the way I live my relationship with her. I really do deeply care, more than she will ever know. There is hope, I am learning to better express my love to her in ways that she understands - it involves dealing with my emotions which is the difficult part.
Well said. I've only been in one 'real' relationship, as it was the first peron I ever met who actually was able to wait the long time it takes to get close 2 me and realize I had so much to offer to her. What i noticed right away, as she told me was, as an INTJ, I was never really all gushy mushy with her. We were never 'a couple' just really good friends who tried. The point is she was able to put up with the fact I wasnt expressive b/c i did the million other things for her to show how much i cared and was committed and she was perfectly ok with that. I think what it takes is understanding and someone willing to be with you for you. Maybe thats why we clicked b/c i was one of the few who understood her. In the end, it didnt work b/c she simply didnt know what she wanted at this point in her life and as an INTJ i need direction and stability so I found it best to just move forward.
I dont agree personally with the saying youll be able to love again b/c its so hard for me to open up in the first place so I think ill just always cherish that i got to try at least once and continue on alone the way I know how to.